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Rising Sun*
06-04-2008, 08:31 AM
Private William Jackson, 17th Battalion (New South Wales). Jackson lost his right arm in the action on 2526 June 1916 for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross (which he is wearing and has nothing to do with the questions arising about this picture, nor does the background).

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4581/awmp01992001xz9.jpg

32Bravo
06-04-2008, 09:17 AM
Private William Jackson, 17th Battalion (New South Wales). Jackson lost his right arm in the action on 2526 June 1916 for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross (which he is wearing and has nothing to do with the questions arising about this picture, nor does the background).

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4581/awmp01992001xz9.jpg

The person in the background is of a later era.

gumalangi
06-04-2008, 11:03 AM
if he is a one arm person,. how he handle horse string and in the same time whipping the steed?

Rising Sun*
06-04-2008, 05:30 PM
The person in the background is of a later era.

No.

It's to do with his uniform.

Rising Sun*
06-04-2008, 05:34 PM
if he is a one arm person,. how he handle horse string and in the same time whipping the steed?

No, but you're sort of on the right track.

It's to do with horses, but not riding them.

(Anyway, a lot of horsemen of that era could control a horse with their knees and needed only one hand for the reins. They'd use spurs rather than the crop he's holding.)

Rising Sun*
06-04-2008, 07:18 PM
He looks photoshopped into the picture

No, that's just a consequence of using a large aperture on the camera. It drops the background out of focus.

It's all to do with the uniform.

gumalangi
06-05-2008, 08:49 AM
17th batallion didnt have cavalry unit? and he was wearing cavalry uniform?

Rising Sun*
06-05-2008, 06:38 PM
17th batallion didnt have cavalry unit? and he was wearing cavalry uniform?

Near enough. :D

He seems to be wearing the top half of an infantry uniform and the bottom half of a light horse uniform.

17th Bn was infantry. Unlike the light horse soldiers, they didn't have reinforced panels on the inside leg of their breeches and wore puttees rather than leather leggings, and they didn't need riding crops nor were they part of their issue.

Light horse were issued with leather belts, where Jackson is weaing the cloth infantry version.

I was wondering whether Jackson was later promoted and took to carrying a crop as part of his officer's uniform, but then he'd be more likely to be wearing a peaked cap and not a slouch hat.

Light horse had a large feather in their slouch hat, but Jackson doesn't. http://www.rfd.org.au/site/light_horse_reenact.asp

Maybe it was another case of a soldier 'mixing and matching' uniforms to get what he felt suited him best, which happens in the field in all armies.

Rising Sun*
06-05-2008, 09:59 PM
I'm tempted to start a quiz on what's wrong with the picture in the link in my last post, but even most Australians couldn't work it out so I won't.

The flag bearer is holding the wrong Australian flag. It's the current flag, the blue ensign. http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/au.html

In WWI (and WWII, even despite occasional photographic deceit http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/redensign/index.html) it was almost always the red ensign, which is now our merchant navy's flag.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-flags/red_ensign.htm

Which is why it pisses me off when monarchists, conservatives, nationalists and other historically ignorant fools rely on 'history' to support their assertions that our flag is sacrosanct because our service people died for our flag, meaning the blue ensign, in two world wars, when they didn't fight under that flag.

Although it was proclaimed as the national flag in 1901, the blue ensign didn't receive formal royal assent until 1954 and didn't come into common government use until then. Almost everything from from WWI, including some documents I have, carry the red ensign, often crossed with the Union Jack as in some of the pictures in the last link in this post.

Amrit
06-06-2008, 07:06 AM
Jackson was never commissioned so that cannot be an officer's crop. The photo was taken 13 July 1917, a week after he returned to Australia, so it will probably be a park in Sydney.

It's probable that he rode in a parade and was given the appropriate trousers, as he seemed to know his way around horses because he became a dealer for a short while after the war.

Rising Sun*
06-06-2008, 07:12 AM
Jackson was never commissioned so that cannot be an officer's crop. The photo was taken 13 July 1917, a week after he returned to Australia, so it will probably be a park in Sydney.

It's probable that he rode in a parade and was given the appropriate trousers, as he seemed to know his way around horses because he became a dealer for a short while after the war.

Thanks for that.

I tried tracking down the Australian War Memorial picture through its records but couldn't find any info on it.

Do you have any more information?

P.S. Where did you find that info?

Amrit
06-06-2008, 09:11 AM
Detailed biog:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/jacksonvc.htm

The issue of his DCM makes for interesting reading, as does the fact that he is often mentioned as having won the MM when he didn't.

And AWM picture:

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cas_disp_pkg.pr_detailed_scr?surl=1783525164ZZLEXS WESCSB&acid=2000&pi_query_id=15622525&pi_umo_id=465730&ps_selected_coll=ALL&ps_view_type=BRIEF&current_page_number=1&ps_access_level=Public

The AWM sometimes times-out searches so if that doesn't work then go to :

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cas_disp_pkg.pr_detailed_scr?surl=1783525164ZZLEXS WESCSB&acid=2000&pi_query_id=15622525&pi_umo_id=465730&ps_selected_coll=ALL&ps_view_type=BRIEF&current_page_number=1&ps_access_level=Public

and search for P01992.001

Rising Sun*
06-06-2008, 10:06 AM
Detailed biog:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/jacksonvc.htm

Amrit

Thanks for that great source.

I worked in the Hay area forty plus years ago and there wasn't a park like the one in the picture anywhere near it so, given the dates and the expansive park, the picture was most likely taken in Sydney.


The issue of his DCM makes for interesting reading, as does the fact that he is often mentioned as having won the MM when he didn't.

Yes, I've seen several brief references to a dispute about returning the DCM, but the source you have given is by far the most detailed explanation I have seen. Thanks again.


And AWM picture ... and search for P01992.001

I searched that photo ID on the AWM site several ways and always got a negative result.


Thanks again for fleshing out all that info on Jackson.

Even if we still don't know for sure why he was wearing light horse gear. :confused: I wouldn't be surprised if it was a WWI version of what we now call spin, perhaps built on top of the parade explanation you offered. And maybe related to recruiting issues.

32Bravo
06-06-2008, 01:10 PM
Near enough. :D

He seems to be wearing the top half of an infantry uniform and the bottom half of a light horse uniform.

17th Bn was infantry. Unlike the light horse soldiers, they didn't have reinforced panels on the inside leg of their breeches and wore puttees rather than leather leggings, and they didn't need riding crops nor were they part of their issue.

Light horse were issued with leather belts, where Jackson is weaing the cloth infantry version.

I was wondering whether Jackson was later promoted and took to carrying a crop as part of his officer's uniform, but then he'd be more likely to be wearing a peaked cap and not a slouch hat.

Light horse had a large feather in their slouch hat, but Jackson doesn't. http://www.rfd.org.au/site/light_horse_reenact.asp

Maybe it was another case of a soldier 'mixing and matching' uniforms to get what he felt suited him best, which happens in the field in all armies.

There does appear to be the faint trace of a captains insignia on his epalettes.

I was speaking with an Aussie Lt Col., yesterday, he was in uniform and wore a slouch hat. He also sported the Rising Sun badge in his hat and we got into a conversation on the subject of the badge.

I told him of you and he asked me to pass on his regards.

No. He didn't know what was wrong with the picture either .......(Nah....just kidding on that one! :D )

I would suggest that the person in the picture is not the real Jackson. Hence the discrepencies in uniform and background. The picture is probably taken in much more recent times and the model was given whatever pieces of uniform which could be mustered.....it isn't you is it??? :) Right arm fell off from over use?

If it is you, perhaps it should be transferred to the forum faces?

Rising Sun*
06-07-2008, 02:12 AM
There does appear to be the faint trace of a captains insignia on his epalettes.

I wondered about that too. I thought it might be a lieutenant's two pips as I could make out only two spots, but the proximity of the innermost one to the button near the collar suggests there might be three. Or maybe it's just a trick of the light.

My eyes are about as buggered as my right arm, but from age rather than overuse. :D

I'm not sure whether infantry officers wore the slouch in WWI. I think they wear the usual British pattern officer's peaked cap in the pictures I've seen, but maybe they wore slouches. It's not something I've ever paid attention to before now.


I was speaking with an Aussie Lt Col., yesterday, he was in uniform and wore a slouch hat. He also sported the Rising Sun badge in his hat and we got into a conversation on the subject of the badge.

I told him of you and he asked me to pass on his regards.

Please return my compliments if you see him again.

I'm flattered. With the exception of a major who got very shitty when I wouldn't let him enter a closed off firing area (He instructed his driver to drive the Land Rover over me, at which point I thought it would have been wise for the range officer to have issued me with live ammunition to carry out his orders to exclude everyone, but the driver was a softie, although I feared he was going to firm up when the major transferred his anger to his driver.), I don't think anybody of field rank or above was ever aware of my existence.


If it is you, perhaps it should be transferred to the forum faces?

Nah, I'm much more handsome. ;)

Rising Sun*
06-07-2008, 06:27 AM
I'm not sure whether infantry officers wore the slouch in WWI. I think they wear the usual British pattern officer's peaked cap in the pictures I've seen, but maybe they wore slouches. It's not something I've ever paid attention to before now.

Just to add to the confusion, NCO's and OR's were issued with peaked caps as well as slouches in WWI. More here http://www.firstaif.info/42/level2/reference/02dead-penny.htm#Who%20wore%20two%20hats?


32Bravo

I've never worn the rising sun badge. Nor have I worn a slouch in uniform, but millions of them were around after WWII and were commonly used by labourers, on farms and so on. I think just about every family had at least one slouch when I was a kid.

I was in armour. Slouches are a bit awkward in armoured vehicles. We wore the black beret with the unit badge for all formal dress and either the beret or giggle hats for field dress. Mechanised infantry grunts like me got the giggle hat. Blokes who got to drive armoured vehicles usually wore a beret with badge for field dress, being more dashing than grunts and also not having to worry about a nice shiny chrome badge above the left eye standing out in scrub.

Our armoured black beret is derived from the British version.
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/badges-corps/badge-corps-raac2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/black-beret.htm&h=322&w=243&sz=23&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=ncgRx6c9zbznjM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRAAC%2Bberet%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26rl s%3Dig%26sa%3DG

Armour now wears the slouch for ceremonial occasions, but naturally distinguishes itself from lesser mortals (being the rest of the army and the Australian population :D) by other accoutrements, including the emu feather originally worn by the WWI Light Horse for units which trace back to those origins. http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms/hat-slouch-emu-current.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-army-today/rar-sasr/2cav.htm&h=160&w=181&sz=4&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=nPxsLU4pVn7phM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRAAC%2Bberet%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26rl s%3Dig%26sa%3DG

Amrit
06-08-2008, 03:14 AM
There does appear to be the faint trace of a captains insignia on his epalettes.


I wondered about that too. I thought it might be a lieutenant's two pips as I could make out only two spots, but the proximity of the innermost one to the button near the collar suggests there might be three. Or maybe it's just a trick of the light.


The smudges look too irregular to be the remains of pips. Either the light/shadowing or somethings else (the uniform looks too clean otherwise for it to be dirt). I have darkened the picture so the marks stand out more.

Rising Sun*
06-08-2008, 07:54 AM
The smudges look too irregular to be the remains of pips. Either the light/shadowing or somethings else (the uniform looks too clean otherwise for it to be dirt). I have darkened the picture so the marks stand out more.

Amrit

Thanks again for that.

The mystery darkens. ;)

Shoulder straps which never had anything on them would be most unlikely to have the marks your photo work has illustrated, nor does it seem to be dirt or a trick of the light. The marks are equally consistent with a crown and a pip above it as with a subaltern's pips, which is even less likely for Jackson.

I'm wondering if it's a case of Jackson being photographed in a uniform cobbled together after the war (he looks pretty adult for a teenager), or perhaps after he returned to Australia during the war as his kit after being wounded might not have followed him.

B5N2KATE
06-08-2008, 01:39 PM
The "Park in Sydney" is in fact, Centennial Park......