Tigers at Prokhorovka

[B5N2KATE]

Good Evening....

For my first post of this nature, I would like to pose a question to the forum, and follow it up with a General discussion on the subject.
The question is.....

"How many Mark I TIGER tanks do you think were present on the field of PROKHOROVKA....(12 July 1943)?"

The answer may well surprise and astound!

I'll wait for the guessing to subside before a general discussion of the largest tank battle in history. The themes to be raised may well surprise too!

Whats your best guess?

[pdf27]

Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler had 4, Das Reich had an additional 1.
At that point in the war the SS were fairly low down the priority list for new tanks.

[Panzerknacker]

Sounds more like a question for the German Military section not the Russion one.

[Egorka]

Cann't remember... either none or very few... like within 10 pcs.

[B5N2KATE]

MMM....well informed people you are!

number of Tigers present for 12 July...16 vehicles.

Russian claims ran to "about 100", and I have heard the figure quoted from "reputable" historians too!

[Ashes]

What was the total number of Tigers and Panthers at the start of Kursk?

[pdf27]

MMM....well informed people you are!
number of Tigers present for 12 July...16 vehicles.
Does that include SS Totenkopf? They had 10 or so Tigers, but weren't actually engaged in the battle on the first day as they were on the wrong side of the German attack.

[B5N2KATE]

Number of Tigers present for the entire SS Panzer Corps at the beginning of Kursk...35.

It is suggessted by authors Rothwell, Desch and Kutta that the Russians were suffering from a phenomenon known as TIGER FEVER, something Western Allied tank crews also experienced...to quote....

"On the morning of 12 July 1943, the 5th Guards Tank Army had nearly 800 tanks and assault guns on line. About 600 of those were divided among the Army's own 18th and 29th Tank and 5th Guards Mechanized Corps; the remaining 200 were with the 2nd Guards Tank and 2nd Tank Corps, which had been placed under command of the army especially for the counterattack.
Oft quoted Soviet sources claim there were nearly 1,000 German tanks and assault guns ranged against them, 600 of them with the 2nd SS Panzer Corps and the balance belonging to the 3rd Panzer Corps. Further, of those 600 machines, the Soviets claimed more than 100 were heavies; Tiger tanks and Elephant assault guns.
In actuality, 3rd Panzer Corps began Operation Citadel on 5 July with about 290 tanks and assault guns of all types, but by the 12th they had been reduced to somewhere between 150 to 200 operating machines. On the main sector, in front of Prokhorovka, 2nd SS Panzer Corps had 273 working tanks and assault guns, many of which had already been damaged and repaired. Of that total, fewer than 20 were Tigers and none were Elephants. Excluding an additional 50 or so self-propelled anti-guns, useful mainly for defense, the 2nd SS Panzer Corps armor strength was therefore less than half of that claimed by the Soviets.
In relation to their claims about the number of Tigers present, it seems the Soviets were afflicted with the same malady subsequently experienced by the Western Allies in Normandy; in the eyes of the allied tank crews, most German panzers were considered to be, and were reported as, "Tigers" until proven otherwise. But with only one Tiger company in each of the 2nd SS Divisions, the total available to at the start of Citadel was only 35, and by the morning of the 12th, fewer than 20 were operating. All 90 Elephants had been deployed in Citadel's northern pincer, and it's therefore certain none were to be found on the field of Prokhorovka."

This discussion of numbers in relation to Soviet claims reveals Soviet figures to be highly unreliable. Voroshilov even went so far as to claim that "500,000" German soldiers were killed or captured in Citadel entire!

If this is the figure from the largest engagement of the war, how reliable can we feel Russian sources to be for the rest of it? Continually playing up German losses and playing down their own, postwar analysis seems to bear out the propaganda fiction of Soviet sources. Writers of general histories of the conflict in the East should bear this in mind, but I have read page after page of history using Soviet sources that are frankly self serveing at best, or just plain and utter TRIPE at worst.

It is my contention that Soviet generals badly mismanaged their victory, and cost the lives of literally millions of uniformed soldiers through incompetance, sloppy planning, and plain old butchery....These guys would be out of a job in any other military. Zukhov was famous for wearing down forward units to almost nothing, whilst carefully husbanded fresh troops would wait for "the moment" when German forces were most worn down, and strike before their defensive positions could harden into a thicker crust. Even the battle of Moscow was fought in this manner, although admittedly fine staff work from Zukhov managed to keep Soviet units out of pockets, and falling back to prepared positions time after time.

What do you knowlegable ones feel about this?
I'm suggesting nothing more than without a bottomless pit of fresh troops to draw from, the Soviet Union would have ceased to exist as a national entity somewhere around the summer of 1942...

What do you think....comments from both sides of this debate welcome...CHEVAN, where are you?

[pdf27]

This discussion of numbers in relation to Soviet claims reveals Soviet figures to be highly unreliable. Voroshilov even went so far as to claim that "500,000" German soldiers were killed or captured in Citadel entire!
Remember here that the Soviets consider the battle went on long after the Germans consider it to have ended. The Soviets therefore also count German casualties which occurred in some of the major counterattacks which happened after what the Germans consider the end of the battle.

[Egorka]

Remember here that the Soviets consider the battle went on long after the Germans consider it to have ended.
Or course. But some people are just too square in their thinking to concider this even as a posibility...

[B5N2KATE]

Voroshilov's statement was issued very soon after Prokhorovka....It's pure wishful thinking at best, and a blatant lie at it's worst.

The "Steamroller" style of Soviet operations was covered with much bluster and newsprint, turning the engagement into "The Death Ride of the Fourth Panzer Army"...

Quite the reverse was the case. I remain severly critical of Russian generalship as anything other than "the same old Steamroller".

[ptimms]

Of course the Germans never exagerated their claims. It is a fact of war everyone does it.

[B5N2KATE]

claims made by Goebbels are not questioned as being anything but rubbish. But, the German Army had to make a conscious effort to account for every man, whereas the Russian "media" could and did go to gigantic efforts to make people simply "disappear".

I would believe the records of a defeated nation with a pechant for recording everything to the last detail than a regime that went to great lengths to hide it's own crimes against the very people it had abused so often in it's past. The average Russian is still unaware that the oft quoted figure of 20 million war dead is an UNDERESTIMATION. The true figure approaches 50 million.....we just don't know with any great accuracy. Modern Russians looking back to Stalinism as a "Golden Age" should remember this. These same bastards are still in power!

Still they try to justify their barbarism, and their sheer profligacy with the lives of their own people.
Russian politicians couldn't run a drinking contest in a brewery without massive casualties......

[Egorka]

The average Russian is still unaware that the oft quoted figure of 20 million war dead is an UNDERESTIMATION. The true figure approaches 50 million.....we just don't know with any great accuracy.
You should grab something firm and heavy and try to hold and never-never let it go.... otherwise you seem to get carried away.

On the other hand... could you enlight us with you knowledge on the subject of Soviet losses in WW2, please?

[Egorka]

Voroshilov's statement was issued very soon after Prokhorovka....What is the source of your quote?
It's pure wishful thinking at best, and a blatant lie at it's worst.Bla-bla-bla

[Egorka]

Besides, what is a problem with the Tigers?
No wonder they were anihilated by the advancing Soviet KV-6 tanks:

http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=4693
http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=4693&pid=13557

[B5N2KATE]

omg.....WHAT A MONSTROSITY...

Makes the German "Maus" look inspired!

How can an armaments industry that can produce such vehicles of quality be guilty of producing such trash?

I am no fan of "Comrade Stalin", but this is just leadership genius in complete reverse!

Stunning!

[pdf27]

How can an armaments industry that can produce such vehicles of quality be guilty of producing such trash?
How can an otherwise intelligent poster fall for such an obvious joke?
http://forums.filefront.com/1892239-post13.html

[Major Walter Schmidt]

Rumor has it that one of those things were built but split when it tried to go over a trench. I think thats unlikely.

[pdf27]

Sigh, some people still don't get it if you beat them around the head with a clue-by-four.
It is a parody. It never existed. It was invented by a chap named Brian Fowler in 1997 who is into plastic models, and who thought it would be fun to glue several random models together and invent a history for it.

The sources are the following:
Secret Soviet Armour of the Great Patriotic War Steven J. Zaloga; Arms and Armour Press, 1995.
- This book title is a googlewhack - there is literally one reference on the whole of google to it, and hence it is overwhelmingly unlikely to exist.

The Really Unknown War: A&E Presents: "Our Century"; Narrator: Burt Lancaster; Producer: Isaac Kleinerman
Another obvious fabrication. There was a series called "The Unknown War (http://www.websitefilms.com/ftb/titles/unknownwar.htm)" narrated by Burt Lancaster and produced by Isaac Kleinerman, but no series called "The Really Unknown War".

The Behemoths are Burning, Martin Cadin; Pinnacle Books, 1995
This turns up a load of porn spam links, but no others that don't talk about this tank. Starting to get a picture yet?

KV-VI in Action, Dan Egan and Paul Leray; Squadron/Signal Publications; Armor No. 41, 1996
Again, refers only to three pages with this particular model tank in them.

Die Russischen Geheimnisseschwererpanzerkampfwagon, Walter J. Spielberger; Motobuch Verlag, 1996
"Geheimnisseschwererpanzerkampfwagon" returns four google hits - all for this plastic model tank.

Dreadful Din on the Eastern Front, Erich Maria Remarque Jr.; Podzun Verlag; 1951
Now we get to the one that should be really, really obvious even to the most clueless. Erich Maria Remarque is the rather famous author of "All Quiet on the Western Front" - probably the best known WW1 novel/play. A name that similar - and that frivolous - cannot be genuine. Not to mention the fact that I can find no record of his having any children.

[B5N2KATE]

God-damnit...

I KNEW I had never seen that thing before!

Full marks to the perpetrator!!!

Even Stalin could not have been that stupid...

I feel so funky/ripped off!!!

Makes me think of the recent media scandal of the "Boy with Dad's credit card buying hookers and spending 30,000 dollars", a story picked up by every news media online group and exposed as a front to gather interest for a media group website.

I would have liked to have read a parody of Remarques novel, too. It's always good satire to aim at the serious literature!
The title got a laugh from me, too..."Dreadful Din On the Western Front" indeed!

Can I use the word "bastard", please?

[Chevan]

MMM....well informed people you are!

number of Tigers present for 12 July...16 vehicles.

Russian claims ran to "about 100", and I have heard the figure quoted from "reputable" historians too!
Show me that "russian historian" please?:)
Or you still read the Soviet propogandics posters like an russians?
Is it not you that man who call to separate the Soviet and russian IDENTIFY in other thread?

[Chevan]

What is the source of your quote?

Resun/Suvorov: i suppose:)

[Chevan]

omg.....WHAT A MONSTROSITY...

Makes the German "Maus" look inspired!

How can an armaments industry that can produce such vehicles of quality be guilty of producing such trash?

How can, how can..
Creat the GULAG for 40 ( better 60 mln) and Grab entire the American Industry , obligated them to supply the WHOLE Lend Lise ONLY for yourself- and you can start muss production of such devises:)

I am no fan of "Comrade Stalin", but this is just leadership genius in complete reverse!

You haven't seen his MOST Big airplains yet..:)
You will be best fan of Stalin...

[Chevan]

God-damnit...

I KNEW I had never seen that thing before!

Full marks to the perpetrator!!!

Even Stalin could not have been that stupid...

I feel so funky/ripped off!!!

Now see mr JapaneBomber, why i usially carefully look at the each new members and their "fresh" ideas.
If you historical knowleges as good as your techical ones:)...soon we would learn from the "reliable" sources about plans of Soviet invasion to the Mars;)
But nevertheless, you a good lad, who gives us more fun..

[Egorka]

How can an otherwise intelligent poster fall for such an obvious joke?
http://forums.filefront.com/1892239-post13.html
:mrgreen:

And this is one great word: Geheimnisseschwererpanzerkampfwagon
I am afraid I will break my tongue if I try to pronounce it... :)

http://weapons-technology.blogspot.com/2008/04/extreme-tanks.html
http://1.1.1.4/bmi/www.roumazeilles.net/news/fr/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/tank_3.jpg

[pdf27]

Comes out as roughly "Secret <something> heavy armoured war vehicle" or "secret <something> heavy tank". Any of the Germans on here able to do a better translation? My German is a tad rusty.

[B5N2KATE]

source for 100 Tigers and Elephanta....Gilbert, Martin "The Second World War".

Martin Gilbert is quite "distinguished" and "reputable", but his sources are old Soviet ones!

I claim to have no original ideas, really....most of them have been shot down in the past.
So, now I'm simply a humanist/humourist, seeking only to seperate modern Russians from their Soviet past. I grew up reading about WW2 from about 8 or 9 years of age, and have remained a staunch supporter of revisionism in the name of ACCURACY.

I want to be able to teach history, one day, so I think it's important to get it right and correct, and to see it not in isolation from the rest of world events, but to view it as a FLOW, firmly in context. The monstrosities of the Stalin regime always made me wonder how on earth people could let themselves be so abused. Then you realise that power was and still comes out of the end of a barrel, and that sometimes people do things because they have no choice.
I used to be a socialist, but woke up to the fact that in human affairs, you could never really eliminate basic human emotions like greed and selfishness. Abuse of one's fellow man is something that I still hate very much....perhaps I'm not ruthless enough to be a success....poor but happy is the phrase I think I'm after.
The Russian oil workers I talk to are hearty fellows, with a twinkle in their eye, and a friendly attitude in a world that is far from a friendly place.
Perhaps they learnt this from the socialist experiments of their fathers and grandfathers, how to look the world in the eye and meet it's challenges, even when you know you are being given a raw deal.
My heart goes out to all in Eastern Europe that have been affected by The Great Experiment in Socialism....I cannot bring myself to feel that experiment was much of a success, and niether is our "wonderful" capitalism to be truthful. Both sides of the political coin tend to set one against the other, rather than mutual co-operation for the greater common good, as it should be in a Utopian world.

You Russians are such hardy people....I'm not sure whether I could do the same as those selfless Russians that gave everything and more all those years ago. I know I would have ended up in a Gulag as a "political" in a special camp, with a 30 or 40 year sentence.

[Chevan]

I claim to have no original ideas, really....most of them have been shot down in the past.
So, now I'm simply a humanist/humourist, seeking only to seperate modern Russians from their Soviet past. I grew up reading about WW2 from about 8 or 9 years of age, and have remained a staunch supporter of revisionism in the name of ACCURACY.

Supporter of revisionism:)?
Be carefull my friend. The neo-bolshevics revisionist are not welcomed in this board:)

I want to be able to teach history, one day, so I think it's important to get it right and correct, and to see it not in isolation from the rest of world events, but to view it as a FLOW, firmly in context. The monstrosities of the Stalin regime always made me wonder how on earth people could let themselves be so abused. Then you realise that power was and still comes out of the end of a barrel, and that sometimes people do things because they have no choice.
I used to be a socialist, but woke up to the fact that in human affairs, you could never really eliminate basic human emotions like greed and selfishness. Abuse of one's fellow man is something that I still hate very much....perhaps I'm not ruthless enough to be a success....poor but happy is the phrase I think I'm after.
The Russian oil workers I talk to are hearty fellows, with a twinkle in their eye, and a friendly attitude in a world that is far from a friendly place.

So you are the Socialist - idealist who blame the STalin's regime as a "wrong way of socialism"?
But just say honestly - were the Socialism able to be the more human and what kind of socialism do ou prefer?
Sweden?

Perhaps they learnt this from the socialist experiments of their fathers and grandfathers, how to look the world in the eye and meet it's challenges, even when you know you are being given a raw deal.
My heart goes out to all in Eastern Europe that have been affected by The Great Experiment in Socialism....I cannot bring myself to feel that experiment was much of a success, and niether is our "wonderful" capitalism to be truthful. Both sides of the political coin tend to set one against the other, rather than mutual co-operation for the greater common good, as it should be in a Utopian world.

Now you finally admit that the "wonderful" capitalism is not such truthful indeed as it usially portrays in WESTERn mass media.
But why in this way you believe the everything that capitalists wrote about Evill USSR?
And if the West instead of integration with the East( the point that i/m agree), just prefer to "subordinate" the East and refuse all of its socialistic values ( like the free education and medical service) as "wrong"?
Is this not sort of Neo-Imperialism?
Why instead of creation the new kind of society -Social oriented Capitalism, today we have the Rought Primitive capitalism in the Eastern Europe and Russia?
Accidentally do you know the answers?

You Russians are such hardy people....I'm not sure whether I could do the same as those selfless Russians that gave everything and more all those years ago.

So help us to be more "soft"....
If you know how:)


I know I would have ended up in a Gulag as a "political" in a special camp, with a 30 or 40 year sentence.
Somethins prompts me, that in USSR you would be a great political leaders, or at least "Socialist Loudhailer from Literature":)
Your energy in study of matter ( althought the sources not always correct:)) and talant ( you definatelly have it) plus your ability to convince and inspire the peoples:)- would make you the bright figure in soviet life.
And hardly you would have choised to be the "soviet diccident" - the social mads , hwo have been prisoned into the Yellow Houses ( not into the Gulag that has been eliminated in the mid 1950).
Becouse you obviously have a common sense and ambitions not to choose the social starvation instead success and popularity:)