The Unforgiving War: Brutality on the Eastern Front

[Chevan]

The first 3 ones must be called "put the charge and run", nice to see the Panzerknackers in action there. :cool:
This might be called the "execution of wounded member of crew".
By those panzer-bastards.
The simular beahaviour provoked the war crimes toward the POWs during the war.

[gumalangi]

This might be called the "execution of wounded member of crew".
By those panzer-bastards.
The simular beahaviour provoked the war crimes toward the POWs during the war.

The pictures stimulate nothings,.. you're either kill or be killed,..
you can't be too sure unless hands are up or bodies are on the ground..
the same thing of one movie i saw in the youtube on one panther being shot dozens of times,. despite fires and smokes came out from its engine.

The germans seemed checking on the armor,. and somehow found something hostiles towards him,. and decided to threw the grenade first and check again later,..

[snebold]

Chevan: Do yourself and us all the favour to think before you write!

The Russians quickly got famous for fighting on, no matter how bloodily wounded, for one thing.
Another is that you wouldn´t have written "execution of wounded member of crew". had it been a German AFV and Soviet soldiers!

(place them in hilly terrain and the KV-2 certainly won´t win as the turret wasn´t too happy to move unless the KV was close to horizontal)

[Chevan]

Chevan: Do yourself and us all the favour to think before you write!

You plese don't direct me what to write and how to think.. :twisted:

The Russians quickly got famous for fighting on, no matter how bloodily wounded, for one thing.

Even though...this is not reason to finish the all the wounded enemy solders.
The Germans got famouse in executing all of wounded russian soldiers, independently of were they still able to resist or not.

Another is that you wouldn´t have written had it been a German AFV and Soviet soldiers!


SO find me please just a single shoot where the russians blowed up the German tank with wounded silent crew, or even shoot where they executed the wounded GErmans POWs?

[snebold]

You plese don't direct me what to write and how to think..

I do not want to tell you what to write or think, just to think before you write.

SO find me please just a single shoot where the russians blowed up the German tank with wounded silent crew, or even shoot where they executed the wounded GErmans POWs?

So tell me again: how many German Stalingrad POW´s survived?

[Chevan]

I do not want to tell you what to write or think, just to think before you write.
really, why? ;)
It seem you try to think , but if the result the same - why to waste a time ?

So tell me again: how many German Stalingrad POW´s survived?

Aha, so as i do understand , you have no any photos of execution of GErmans POWs by Soviets.
Well, so why do yo try to change the concept?
What to hell have the "survived" to the "execution"?
You as the man who PRs themself as the thinking...have to understand that about 50 mln have not survived the ww2 at all, nevertheless hardly even 10% of them have been executed.

[Warpig]

Even though...this is not reason to finish the all the wounded enemy solders.
The Germans got famouse in executing all of wounded russian soldiers, independently of were they still able to resist or not.
Chevan i like to call a dog a dog so i'll be frank here, while aware of historical facts you're time and time again twisting them to fit your nationalist version of history that will not hurt your pride, you're continously lying.

Germans did not execute all russian POW's in fact POW executions were relatively rare, how do you think Germans aquired milions of POW's if they were "famous for executing them."



SO find me please just a single shoot where the russians blowed up the German tank with wounded silent crew, or even shoot where they executed the wounded GErmans POWs?

While i will not be arsed to look for the tank case : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

Educate yourself, i can provide dozens of links to russian atrocities against german POW's, lets make it clear, Red Army was inhuman in its treatment of both civilians and soldiers, rapes, murders and barbaric uncivilzed behaviour was common against all people whether those "liberated" or Germans.

From the point of view of anyone non-russian there was nothing noble about the Red Army or the russian nation of the war period, the barbarism of russians is well documented and the only thing that they were better than Germans was that usually they didnt plan wholesale extinction just local genocides and random acts of barbarism.

[Nickdfresh]

Chevan i like to call a dog a dog so i'll be frank here, while aware of historical facts you're time and time again twisting them to fit your nationalist version of history that will not hurt your pride, you're continously lying.

Germans did not execute all russian POW's in fact POW executions were relatively rare, how do you think Germans aquired milions of POW's if they were "famous for executing them."

Well to be fair, the Germans did kill off most of the Soviet prisoners they captured in their POW camps. I think the numbers quite staggering. All a question of timing...

The Heer and SS also had a habit of turning Russian civilians out of their homes in occupied areas, after stealing they're cold weather clothing of course.

While i will not be arsed to look for the tank case : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

Educate yourself, i can provide dozens of links to russian atrocities against german POW's, lets make it clear, Red Army was inhuman in its treatment of both civilians and soldiers, rapes, murders and barbaric uncivilzed behaviour was common against all people whether those "liberated" or Germans.

After some of the atrocities by the Germans against Soviet civilians, I wouldn't blame them one bit...I suggest you look into the partisan attack reprisals in which whole villages were decimated. And I think a German soldier had a statistically higher chance of surviving a Soviet POW camp as Russian did a German one...

Perhaps you should take some of your own advice. I suggest Anthony Beevor's account of Stalingrad...

From the point of view of anyone non-russian there was nothing noble about the Red Army or the russian nation of the war period, the barbarism of russians is well documented and the only thing that they were better than Germans was that usually they didnt plan wholesale extinction just local genocides and random acts of barbarism.

Other than they defeated the German Army for the first time at Stalingrad and destroyed something like 80% of the ground forces by War's end...

It was a brutal, utterly remorseless war on both sides...

[Warpig]

ell to be fair, the Germans did kill off most of the Soviet prisoners they captured in their POW camps. I think the numbers quite staggering. All a question of timing...

The Heer and SS also had a habit of turning Russian civilians out of their homes in occupied areas, after stealing they're cold weather clothing of course.

To be honest i'd probably do the same as a Russian in these times but i will firmly oppose Chevans portrayal of the Red Army as even nearing humane, some atrocities can be justified by german atrocities but not the amount or extent of what the Red Army did, there's no redemption for the kids of Soso.


After some of the atrocities by the Germans against Soviet civilians, I wouldn't blame them one bit...I suggest you look into the partisan attack reprisals in which whole villages were decimated. And I think a German soldier had a statistically higher chance of surviving a Soviet POW camp as Russian did a German one...
And what about polish civilians ? Ukrainian civilians ? Lithuanians and people of Baltic Republics.





Other than they defeated the German Army for the first time at Stalingrad and destroyed something like 80% of the ground forces by War's end...

It was a brutal, utterly remorseless war on both sides...

And then continued to rape and murder thousands of civilians in the countries previously occupied by the Germans ? Russians won because they had no choice but they were brutal savages ( mostly not all ) while at it.

When they came to Vilinus apart from murdering tens of thousands of civilians they've encountered a problem still remembered around here, far eastern russian soldiers had a problem with using a privy, they didnt know how to flush.

As a result after the passing of the frontline units Vilinus was full of raped women, murdered civilians and clogged toilets.

Unless you are living in Eastern Europe were Russia is universally distrusted for its crimes you cant really comprehend what happened, just one advice, never call Russians noble in Eastern Europe, Belarus and Russia are ok, everywhere else you might get kicked out of the restaurant or something.

[Nickdfresh]

To be honest i'd probably do the same as a Russian in these times but i will firmly oppose Chevans portrayal of the Red Army as even nearing humane, some atrocities can be justified by german atrocities but not the amount or extent of what the Red Army did, there's no redemption for the kids of Soso.

I certainly know the Red Army was capable of brutality. Probably the political paramilitaries of the NKVD were that nastiest vermin. But I think the brutality of the conflict can not be put to one side, especially since it was the Wehrmacht that invaded the USSR, not the Red Army into Germany...

And what about polish civilians ? Ukrainian civilians ? Lithuanians and people of Baltic Republics.

Of course various units, probably primarily the NKVD, committed brutal programs against political enemies. This question was actually well spoken of by a Canadian-Ukrainian history professor who harshly spoke of Stalin's viciousness and asked the controversial question: why should only those fighting on the fascist side be considered war criminals?

Thread here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3958

But I also recognize that if I were a Russian fighting in the Red Army with little control over my destiny once the war ended, I doubt I'd be too forgiving of "Fritz."

And then continued to rape and murder thousands of civilians in the countries previously occupied by the Germans ? Russians won because they had no choice but they were brutal savages ( mostly not all ) while at it.

There were ravages, probably somewhat a reflection of the powerless given a little power, and what Anthony Beevor called, "the dark side of male sexuality."

I've also fought with Chevan over this...

When they came to Vilinus apart from murdering tens of thousands of civilians they've encountered a problem still remembered around here, far eastern russian soldiers had a problem with using a privy, they didnt know how to flush.

But can you blame them for not knowing how to flush a toilet?

Yes there were murders, but there were also genuine efforts to reassert good order and discipline after excesses became embarrassingly public...

As a result after the passing of the frontline units Vilinus was full of raped women, murdered civilians and clogged toilets.

Unless you are living in Eastern Europe were Russia is universally distrusted for its crimes you cant really comprehend what happened, just one advice, never call Russians noble in Eastern Europe, Belarus and Russia are ok, everywhere else you might get kicked out of the restaurant or something.

I don't call nationalities "noble," I call individuals noble or ignoble on a case by case basis. Indeed, the problems that plagued the Red Army were no different, except in the scale, than rapes and rampaging that I've read about carried out by French-Northern African colonial forces in Italy (Berbers) and even by ill-trained US Army troops in North Africa during the bad days of early Torch...

[snebold]

Yet another thread de-railed by reactions to a Chevan post...

This is something I could writen somewhere else as it has little to do with that post and certainly nothing to do with KV-2´s.

Can we learn to ignore Chevan´s utterings or should we suggest to him to create a nationalchauvinistic thread in which anybody who feel like can discuss his nationalChevanistic views?

Sorry if anybody feel hurt by this, or if I´ve somehow broken a code conduct of the forum, but I´m really fed up (as I guess everyone else is) with Chevan´s notion of all Russian soldiers and Mother Russia herself having wings on their backs and a halo permanently hovering over their heads!

[Nickdfresh]

I'm starting and merging a new thread here from responses in the KV-2 thread which is about a tank...

The above exchanges pertain to this picture, purportedly of Ostheer soldiers summarily executing Red Army wounded in their knocked out KV-2 tank:

[B5N2KATE]

Chevanistic! har har!!!

If you want a nice reply to Chevanism, please refer to post on favourite Russian generals!

Oh....funny is it not, that we place the clogging of toilets in the same catagory of wrongdoing as rape and murder?

Ost-Front was TOTAL WAR right from the beginning. It was a fight to the finish, with both sides behaving as if the military standards that apply to troops everywhere else simply did not compute in a case like this. It made Napolean's Russian Campaign look quaint and orderly by comparison. There were 60,000 Germans in Napolean's Grande Armee, and one of the deciding factors for going to war was the creation of the State of POLAND. The parallels are there for all to see...

[Egorka]

Can we learn to ignore Chevan´s utterings or should we suggest to him to create a nationalchauvinistic thread in which anybody who feel like can discuss his nationalChevanistic views?
With all due respect, maybe one should make such remarks about another senior member after reaching post count of 500 or so. Do not you think?
Sorry if anybody feel hurt by this
None taken...

[ptimms]

One thing, the picture certainly doesn't show a KV2, a KV1 yes.

[Nickdfresh]

One thing, the picture certainly doesn't show a KV2, a KV1 yes.

My mistake...

[snebold]

With all due respect, maybe one should make such remarks about another senior member after reaching post count of 500 or so. Do not you think?

Hope I with this is done making totally out of subject posts.

I´ve read a lot threads from before I became a member, and know well enough what kind of posts a certain person continues to deliver. So with all due respect: no, I don´t think so.
I did not intend to suggest a general no response to Chevan´s posts or anything like that, just to keep it to ourselves if we know it´ll go off subject. But I´m serious about the Russian-Halo-Chevan-thread proposal.

And while I´m at it: No Chevan, I do not have any picture of anybody being executioned.

[B5N2KATE]

I think the best way to combat Chevanism is to hit back with facts and figures. We could start with Chevan giving us overall and month by month Russian production figures, compare them to the Lend Lease materials sent to them, and astound him with the premise that without it, Russia could not have survived....

And, without a high command willing and able to throw lives away at a rate that made the Waffen SS look like holiday excursionists. I am scathing in my criticism of the standard of Russian generalship. I maintain these fellows were BUTCHERS, and would be out of a job in any other country.....

[B5N2KATE]

Another point to make is the lack of basic consumer goods and foodstuffs that the Soviets simply did not produce, pouring everything into war production, and frequently letting entire regions starve. This is something that not even Germany could bring itself to do, showing just what a bankrupt and brutal government the Soviets were....

[Egorka]

And, without a high command willing and able to throw lives away at a rate that made the Waffen SS look like holiday excursionists. I am scathing in my criticism of the standard of Russian generalship. I maintain these fellows were BUTCHERS, and would be out of a job in any other country.....
I poet said:"Every one feels like a great strategist watching fight from far away..."

[pdf27]

I poet said:"Every one feels like a great strategist watching fight from far away..."
Indeed. There have been one minor and two major industrialised wars - the US Civil War being the minor one, and the two world wars being the major ones.
In all three, they were won when one army (the Army of the Potomac, British Expeditionary Force and the Red Army respectively) wore down and destroyed the main strength of the enemy's army through battles of attrition.
All three commanders (Grant, Haig and Zhukov et al) were accused at the time and subsequently of being butchers, but all three achieved what no other general of their time could do. They destroyed the main strength of the enemy's forces and in doing so won the war.

[Nickdfresh]

I poet said:"Every one feels like a great strategist watching fight from far away..."

Indeed. There have been one minor and two major industrialised wars - the US Civil War being the minor one, and the two world wars being the major ones.
In all three, they were won when one army (the Army of the Potomac, British Expeditionary Force and the Red Army respectively) wore down and destroyed the main strength of the enemy's army through battles of attrition.
All three commanders (Grant, Haig and Zhukov et al) were accused at the time and subsequently of being butchers, but all three achieved what no other general of their time could do. They destroyed the main strength of the enemy's forces and in doing so won the war.


I couldn't agree more. While there is little question that Stalin's regime was criminal in many respects by any standard of humanity, to minimize the sacrifice of the Soviet people is equally callous. The Soviets did produce food stuffs, but I think some here are only countering Chevan's nationalist bluster with bluster of their own and failing to see things in the proper context. The US provided the USSR with foodstuffs because the breadbasket of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine, was already under Heer occupation. It's citizens were being starved to feed "greater Germany." This cannot be laid at even Stalin's or Beria's feet, for all their bastardy.

Zhukov had to fight within a strict set of political boundaries much like the German generals did in regards to Hitler, probably even more stringently so. He even had to put up with rival paramilitaries like the NKVD and commissar pricks trying to vie for control and seeking to undermine the apolitical military authority of the Red Army. If those Soviet commanders had not suffered the casualties of their men while backed by Western production, then we in the Anglo-American alliance surely would have. And since we didn't have too -- we should be thankful.

Glory to the Red Army...

[Churchill]

Aye aye, to the Reds... May their vodka be strong...

[B5N2KATE]

Easy to see a "policy of attrition" as "correct" when you yourself are not one of the poor sods that have to enact it....That was a comment from far away too! (Ha! Ha!)

Maclellan could easily have achieved Grant's objectives, but he did not have Bill Sherman advancing in concert, to tie down reserves and prevent rail transfers of troops, a-la Chickamauga.

I agree with you about Doug Haig....attrition was national policy on both sides, and the Central Powers were punch drunk by the end of the "Kaiserschlact"....

Russia remains the only belligerent to systematically eliminate more of it's own people than the enemy, both in peace and in war, and to justify this policy by the very fact that they were on the winning side. Without a Soviet Leadership with a completely cavalier attitude to their own losses, their "victory" would have been nothing more than barbarism. Funny how we ditched our glorious allies soon after we had finished using them to fight attrition, something we ourselves could not bring ourselves to do.

Modern Russia is a morally bankrupt and incompetant administrative entity to this very day.....not much changes in an ultra conservative society. I do not mourn the passing of "The Paradise of Workers and Peasants", and I hope modern Russians will wake up to this as well.

[ptimms]

Am I missing something? Does the picture actually show anyone being shot ? The only one I've seen shows a German armed with a pistol on a KV 1 turret.

[Nickdfresh]

Easy to see a "policy of attrition" as "correct" when you yourself are not one of the poor sods that have to enact it....That was a comment from far away too! (Ha! Ha!)

Maclellan could easily have achieved Grant's objectives, but he did not have Bill Sherman advancing in concert, to tie down reserves and prevent rail transfers of troops, a-la Chickamauga.

...

And neither had the advantage of tactical intelligence that the South enjoyed during most of the War. When they didn't, well, just see Gettysburg as an example...

[Nickdfresh]

Am I missing something? Does the picture actually show anyone being shot ? The only one I've seen shows a German armed with a pistol on a KV 1 turret.

Well, I'm not sure, but I think I saw this series of photos in which a Soviet tanker was pulled out alive, with his hands up. So I think Chevan had a bit of an inference based meltdown here...

[Warpig]

I certainly know the Red Army was capable of brutality. Probably the political paramilitaries of the NKVD were that nastiest vermin. But I think the brutality of the conflict can not be put to one side, especially since it was the Wehrmacht that invaded the USSR, not the Red Army into Germany...

The problem is that the russian armies treated ALL civilian populations this way and all militaries considered "enemy" polish home army was being massacred, hell even UPA its ukrainian equivalent was being burnt in barns or shot en masse when they stopped being usefull.


Of course various units, probably primarily the NKVD, committed brutal programs against political enemies. This question was actually well spoken of by a Canadian-Ukrainian history professor who harshly spoke of Stalin's viciousness and asked the controversial question: why should only those fighting on the fascist side be considered war criminals?
Actually no, NKVD carried out criminal executions mostly but these were quite orderly, it is the common russian citizen ( or comrade ) thats responsible for the most disgusting heinous acts.

But I also recognize that if I were a Russian fighting in the Red Army with little control over my destiny once the war ended, I doubt I'd be too forgiving of "Fritz."

There were ravages, probably somewhat a reflection of the powerless given a little power, and what Anthony Beevor called, "the dark side of male sexuality."
Such behaviour was a rule, in fact it was far rarer to find a "civilized" russian unit than to land in the midst of the horde of savage animals, there were a lot of reasons for that and it'd require an entire new thread to ponder on the "why", its not as simple as "Germans screwed us over so now we screw them, and everyone in between. "


But can you blame them for not knowing how to flush a toilet?
That was the least of the worries of occupied people.

Yes there were murders, but there were also genuine efforts to reassert good order and discipline after excesses became embarrassingly public...
Yes with typical russian imaginative approach they shot soldiers, often not the perpetrators just random soldiers blaimed for it as an "example" and then done nothing.

Tell my why american or british armies, french and polish forces didnt rape, heck the Poles had as many reasons to hate Germans as the Russians did yet when the polish army took back its lands or entered Germany you didnt hear about rapes and murders.



I don't call nationalities "noble," I call individuals noble or ignoble on a case by case basis. Indeed, the problems that plagued the Red Army were no different, except in the scale, than rapes and rampaging that I've read about carried out by French-Northern African colonial forces in Italy (Berbers) and even by ill-trained US Army troops in North Africa during the bad days of early Torch...
Scale makes all the difference, especially if its your mother/sister/fiancee/wife.

[Chevan]

Germans did not execute all russian POW's in fact POW executions were relatively rare, how do you think Germans aquired milions of POW's if they were "famous for executing them."

Me is nationalist:)?
You man don't probably even have not suspected that from about 4 million of soviet POWs survived less then 1,5 millions till the 1945.
So befor the write a bul...t about Germans Humanism toward the Soviets soldiers just read a bit history.

While i will not be arsed to look for the tank case : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

Oh that't nice ,you changed the concept again:)
Now about Soviet Crimes.

Educate yourself, i can provide dozens of links to russian atrocities against german POW's, lets make it clear, Red Army was inhuman in its treatment of both civilians and soldiers, rapes, murders and barbaric uncivilzed behaviour was common against all people whether those "liberated" or Germans.

From the point of view of anyone non-russian there was nothing noble about the Red Army or the russian nation of the war period, the barbarism of russians is well documented and the only thing that they were better than Germans was that usually they didnt plan wholesale extinction just local genocides and random acts of barbarism.
Now it's all clear for me.
You just a fa...ng rusophobian who indeed don't even care to hide its feels behind the Anti-Soviets.
The most of you "well documented" evidences come from Goebbels.

[Chevan]

Can we learn to ignore Chevan´s utterings or should we suggest to him to create a nationalchauvinistic thread in which anybody who feel like can discuss his nationalChevanistic views?

You son, can ignore whatever you want.
But just not claim the evidence of NAzy brutality toward soviet POWs is the Russian NAtionalism:)

[Chevan]

Well, I'm not sure, but I think I saw this series of photos in which a Soviet tanker was pulled out alive, with his hands up. So I think Chevan had a bit of an inference based meltdown here...

But you have not seen the tankers have been pulled out alive in THAT photo, right?
And we speaks about concrete photo.Where the GErmans blowed up the vehicles where probably still the wounded member of crew were?

[Chevan]

BTW Nick this is good thread you started.
May be this is true , and the Germans weren't so brutal with Soviets pows, jews and civilians?

[Rising Sun*]

If everyone is talking about the picture in Nick's post at #12, what's all the fuss about?

It's a picture of a tank and a couple of cautious but fairly relaxed looking German soldiers standing on its turret and looking at the camera.

I don't see anything that suggests anyone is being executed.

I do see a couple of AP holes in the turret which suggest that there mightn't be anyone inside left alive to execute.

[Chevan]

You absolutly right , this Nick's photo is played.
We speaks about the other photos where the germans blowed up with grenade the soviet armored car where supposely could be the wounded members of crew.
Some of members here try to prove that this is a legitime war behaviour to drop the grenade at the stoped tank to check is there somebody alive or not..
I think those people should not be surprised of Soviet brutality in 1945.

[Rising Sun*]

Some of members here try to prove that this is a legitime war behaviour to drop the grenade at the stoped tank to check is there somebody alive or not...

The problem with armoured vehicles is that if they appear more or less intact from the outside, you can't tell whether they're capable of resuming action. From an infantry point of view, if the crew hasn't emerged it makes sense to make sure they won't resume action.

Not all that different from common American and Australian, and possibly British, practice of shooting dead and apparently dead and wounded Japanese after action, as a result of apparently dead and wounded Japanese detonating grenades, shooting, or knifing Allied troops who approached them after action.

Whether it's right or wrong, fair or unfair, just or unjust doesn't really matter when it's your life or theirs.

[snebold]

Am I missing something? Does the picture actually show anyone being shot ? The only one I've seen shows a German armed with a pistol on a KV 1 turret.

The picture that spurned all this is in the KV-2 thread, posted by Digger. It shows a German soldier throwing a grenade (I think) into a BA, with a KV-2 in the background.

[Rising Sun*]

The picture that spurned all this is in the KV-2 thread, posted by Panzerknacker. It shows a German soldier throwing a grenade (I think) into a BA, with a KV-2 in the background.


Thanks.

I understand the discussion better now.

The slung rifles on the soldiers suggest that it's not during an infantry battle they're engaged in.

The KV-2 main gun appears to have just fired in the first photo. If so, it's hardly an execution of wounded crew but a bloody good action by the foot soldiers in front of a still active armoured vehicle.

[Warpig]

Me is nationalist:)?
You man don't probably even have not suspected that from about 4 million of soviet POWs survived less then 1,5 millions till the 1945.
So befor the write a bul...t about Germans Humanism toward the Soviets soldiers just read a bit history.
First of all its spelled humane and yes Germans were usually quite humane towards russian prisoners of war and prisoners of war in general, the casualities you forward are mostly from russian sources, Grayson for example gives a figure of approximately 2 milion russian dead, he underlines that more than 80% of casulalities were caused by the german inability to adequately feed and house these men rather than delibarate action, matter of fact Germans were far more humane towards captured soldiers than the Soviets.



Now it's all clear for me.
You just a fa...ng rusophobian who indeed don't even care to hide its feels behind the Anti-Soviets.
The most of you "well documented" evidences come from Goebbels.

Chevan, everyone who doesnt conform to your "russian pride" is "rusophobic" the fact is that you're a limited nationalist who desperately tries to defend his country.

Russia's name in WW2 is tarnished by unspeakable crimes only slightly less serious to these of Germany and soviet barbarism is well documented not by "Goebbels" but by countries like Poland, Baltic Republics, Hungary, Romania ... source materials are abundant so it doesnt matter how many accusations you make, facts are facts.

[pdf27]

...he underlines that more than 80% of casulalities were caused by the german inability to adequately feed and house these men rather than delibarate action, matter of fact Germans were far more humane towards captured soldiers than the Soviets.
Except we have the documents (from the German archives) which demonstrated that the Germans knew before they started the war that they would be unable to feed both their own troops, PoWs and the civilian population from the food supplies already in Russia.
They decided - BEFORE launching Barbarossa - that the Russian prisoners and civilians were to be starved to death to reduce the logistical problems of the German army and so keep the attack moving.

Hence, this was a premeditated war crime. The German failure to feed and house the PoWs was done deliberately with the intent of killing them to make the task of the German army easier - and most likely with the secondary intent of reducing population of Untermenschen....

[snebold]

Except we have the documents (from the German archives) which demonstrated that the Germans knew before they started the war that they would be unable to feed both their own troops, PoWs and the civilian population from the food supplies already in Russia.
They decided - BEFORE launching Barbarossa - that the Russian prisoners and civilians were to be starved to death to reduce the logistical problems of the German army and so keep the attack moving.

Hence, this was a premeditated war crime. The German failure to feed and house the PoWs was done deliberately with the intent of killing them to make the task of the German army easier - and most likely with the secondary intent of reducing population of Untermenschen....

It had always been the German nazi´s intention to reduce the population of the untermenschen, but except for the jews, they didn´t seem to have a plan. Think the POW´s fate hang on a cost/benefit analysis as far as the Nazi leadership was concerned. Apart from things like shooting anybody that could fall under the category "irregulars" (all not wearing issued uniforms fx.), the German army treated the Soviet´s POW´s as POW´s more than something they tried to exterminate, as far as I´ve gathered.

"Between October 1943 and the summer 1944 the retreating German armies in the east evacuated more than 400000 people from the combat zone for work in Germany" -Adam Tooze

Or kidnapping if you will. The same goes for POW´s by this time. If they could work they were worth keeping alive.


You son, can ignore whatever you want.
But just not claim the evidence of NAzy brutality toward soviet POWs is the Russian NAtionalism

Never did! And I can´t fathom why you think I did! I claim that you are a nationalist based on what I´ve been reading in many threads here. I have no idea how you can see yourself as anything but nationalistic. Does the word "nationalist" have any meaning to you? (And forget the question if you´ve invented a meaning for the word that nobody but you can understand).

Me is nationalist?
If there ever was one!

[snebold]

as early as Novemebr 1941, given the impasse on the Eastern Front, Hitler had taken the decision to that Soviet prisoners of war were to be employed, not only in the rear areas, but in Germany itself. Hundreds of thousands of men were shipped to Germany over the following months, but the mistreatment continued, resulting in mass deaths in prisoner of war camps in Germany itself, and a continued wastage of labour power.
-Adam Tooze, Wages of destruction

The value of labour power contradicting the indoctrination about the worth of the eastern untermenchen, the lives of the Soviet POW´s hanging in the balance.

What happened to German POW´s in USSR?
Why did the Soviets keep many of them for so long?
(Fighter ace Erich Hartmann fx. was only released in 1955).

[Warpig]

Except we have the documents (from the German archives) which demonstrated that the Germans knew before they started the war that they would be unable to feed both their own troops, PoWs and the civilian population from the food supplies already in Russia.
They decided - BEFORE launching Barbarossa - that the Russian prisoners and civilians were to be starved to death to reduce the logistical problems of the German army and so keep the attack moving.

Hence, this was a premeditated war crime. The German failure to feed and house the PoWs was done deliberately with the intent of killing them to make the task of the German army easier - and most likely with the secondary intent of reducing population of Untermenschen....

Actually 'all' russian POWs were fed. matter of fact there exist no documents that advise german army as to the starvation of the russian POWs, furthermore Germans did not know how many prisoners they were going to take, they were NEVER expecting this much.

Also Germans did not fail to feed or house POWs since they were processed into Stalags at first possinble opportunity, there they were used to work and work hard but they were fed adequately.

Yes civilian population was starved but not the POWs.

[Egorka]

Also Germans did not fail to feed or house POWs since they were processed into Stalags at first possinble opportunity, there they were used to work and work hard but they were fed adequately.
Excuse my failing logic, but then why did Soviet POWs actually die?

We learned from you that they were shot and treated humanly hence they were not killed.
Then you shared your wisdom that they were neither starved - so they obviously did not die of hunger, right?
So what do we have left? Illnesses?

So what was the cause for the death of «2 out of 3,35 million POWs in the period between 22 june 1941 and 1 February 1942»?

By the way, that is a quote from "Breve fra Østfronten", 2006 which in its turn refferes to "Streit, Keine Kameraden, 1978, p.128-191. So much for your "the casualities you forward are mostly from russian sources".

And one more quote on this matter from the book "Breve fra Østfronten", page 160:
«In Ukraine the German occupation administration counted for harvest of 5,2 million tonns of grain. But the harvest came out to be only 1 million tonns.
Out of this amount 250 thousands went to the Wehrmacht, 50 thousands was send to Germany and 600 thousands was deposited in reserves for the German market. This, practicaly speaking, left almost nothing to the local population of Ukraine.» [refference 470: Müller, Das Scheitern der wirtschaftlichen "Blitzkriegstragedie", 1991, p.1180.]

And one more quote Goebbels diaries:
1 may 1941 (Thu)
«Backe gives me report on the food situation. Meet is going to have to be cut by 100 grams per week from 2 June. The Wehrmacht is too well off and is using up too much of the available ration. Per head, three times that allowed to the civilian population. We can hope to get by so far as bread is concerned, as long as there is no problem with the harvest. Fat is still in reasonable supply. If we have to go through a third year at war, then we shall consume the last reserves of bread. But nevertheless we are better off than England in many respects. But our situation is no means rosy. I now face the question of how I am to put this over to the public. I shall wait for the most favourable moment possible and then take the announcement.»

6 may 1941 (Tue)
«Backe describes the food situation. Along the same lines as his report to me a few days ago. A few extra details, which give reasons for optimism. All we need is a good harvest this year. And then, of course, we intend to be firmly established in the East.»

26 may 1941 (Mon)
«An other little strike in Brussels. The people are starving there. All they want is food, but we cannot give them any. Let them complain to the English about their blockade. Not that one can expect starving people to understand such things.»
I.e. the provision extortion from the East to Germany was preplanned before the attack on USSR and was one of the reasons to attack.

And one more... Here is the quote from the directive of the German ministry of "War Economy" writen in February 1942:
«Today's problems with work power whould not happen if we would had involved the soviet POW in due time. We had 3,9 million in our disposal. Now we have only 1,1 million left. Only in December 1941 died half a million.»

[pdf27]

Also Germans did not fail to feed or house POWs since they were processed into Stalags at first possinble opportunity, there they were used to work and work hard but they were fed adequately.
Where the hell do you get this idea from, the Joseph Goebbels publishing company?

A good example of the way the Germans treated Russian PoWs was the camp at Novo-Alexandrovsk. 18,000 prisoners on a bare patch of earth surrounded by barbed wire, in winter. Food (boiled rotting horseflesh) for 1,200 at a pinch. In the end there were around 700 survivors, and the Red Army doctors who examined them after they were liberated were convinced that a number of them only survived by eating the flesh of the dead (apparently the skin develops a peculiar reddish tinge).

Another example of the attitude of the Russian soldiers at the front line - who had seen what the Germans did firsthand - came in 1945 when the Russian state was trying to cool things down in preparation for the peacetime occupation of Germany. Ilya Ehrenburg earlier in the war been writing his propaganda pieces describing exactly what the Germans had done to Russia, and to counteract this there was another piece called "Comrade Ehrenburg Oversimplifies" (I assume Ehrenburg had been muted by this point). The reply (an anonymous letter, using one of their very precious free letters home) came back "No, he doesn't".

[Nickdfresh]

The problem is that the russian armies treated ALL civilian populations this way and all militaries considered "enemy" polish home army was being massacred, hell even UPA its ukrainian equivalent was being burnt in barns or shot en masse when they stopped being usefull.

I don't know about specifics. But the UPA vs. Red Army/NKVD feud was a blood one...

Actually no, NKVD carried out criminal executions mostly but these were quite orderly, it is the common russian citizen ( or comrade ) thats responsible for the most disgusting heinous acts.


Such behaviour was a rule, in fact it was far rarer to find a "civilized" russian unit than to land in the midst of the horde of savage animals, there were a lot of reasons for that and it'd require an entire new thread to ponder on the "why", its not as simple as "Germans screwed us over so now we screw them, and everyone in between. "

But yet it is hard to come up with concrete numbers for these acts. Certainly there were a large numbers of rapes in the Red Army's wake. And some murders. But we should also acknowledge that it was the rations of the Red Army that prevented Berlin and many East European nations from falling into starvation...

And one can say what one wants about the Red Army. But their nation was raped collectively and suffered a horrendous number of dead.

That was the least of the worries of occupied people.

Yes with typical russian imaginative approach they shot soldiers, often not the perpetrators just random soldiers blaimed for it as an "example" and then done nothing.

Tell my why american or british armies, french and polish forces didnt rape, heck the Poles had as many reasons to hate Germans as the Russians did yet when the polish army took back its lands or entered Germany you didnt hear about rapes and murders.

Scale makes all the difference, especially if its your mother/sister/fiancee/wife.

They didn't rape on the scale, but as I wrote following this, there were examples of French (continental) officers turning a blind eye to extensive, premeditated raping and looting of the already victimized Italian civilians by their colonial North African troops. And BTW, Germans weren't exactly running to the French zones of occupation after the collapse of the Nazi regime either..

And there were units of US Army troops that rampaged in North Africa, firstly against the occidentals, then the continental French and Jewish women. The accusations were largely buried and not thoroughly investigated and the only resulting actions taken were threats of prosecution for further acts only after the French Gendarme made formal complaints and threatened to go to the US press..


And of course scale makes a difference. But then, the average Red Army rapist thought he was being entirely more merciful to his victims that some Germans had been to his family...

[Nickdfresh]

BTW Nick this is good thread you started.
May be this is true , and the Germans weren't so brutal with Soviets pows, jews and civilians?

Um, exactly how does my thread say that?

[Nickdfresh]

First of all its spelled humane and yes Germans were usually quite humane towards russian prisoners of war and prisoners of war in general, the casualities you forward are mostly from russian sources, Grayson for example gives a figure of approximately 2 milion russian dead, he underlines that more than 80% of casulalities were caused by the german inability to adequately feed and house these men rather than delibarate action, matter of fact Germans were far more humane towards captured soldiers than the Soviets.

Um, no. No one disputes that at least four million Soviet POWs were essentially murdered by the Nazi regime...

The German inattention to the feeding and housing of these men was a deliberate policy of neglect and a warcrime by any definition...

Check Nizkor...

[Chevan]

First of all its spelled humane and yes Germans were usually quite humane towards russian prisoners of war and prisoners of war in general, the casualities you forward are mostly from russian sources, Grayson for example gives a figure of approximately 2 milion russian dead, he underlines that more than 80% of casulalities were caused by the german inability to adequately feed and house these men rather than delibarate action, matter of fact Germans were far more humane towards captured soldiers than the Soviets.

Oh that's nice.
We have one more REVISIONIST here:)
May be you are going to say that the GErmans were as human toward the soviet POWs as toward the Jews?
And the 80% of Jews died from starvation, becouse human Nazic were unable adequately feed them?:)


Chevan, everyone who doesnt conform to your "russian pride" is "rusophobic" the fact is that you're a limited nationalist who desperately tries to defend his country.

Everyman will defend HIS country.
Just idiots will not..
And you as a f...ng stoopid rushophobian, who constantly demonstrated hatred to the all Rusian ( whatever they were soviet or not) have to use it.
My Granddad died in 1942 and other millions of simple russian people.
They died becous such as....ls as you , who believed in 1941 that NAzy were "more human" then the Soviets and joined to the Hitler in his Barbarossa ( the New Crusade to the East).
Bet you belong to the "small rat slav" nation that has been joined to the Axis.

Russia's name in WW2 is tarnished by unspeakable crimes only slightly less serious to these of Germany and soviet barbarism is well documented not by "Goebbels" but by countries like Poland, Baltic Republics, Hungary, Romania ... source materials are abundant so it doesnt matter how many accusations you make, facts are facts.
All those states, exept Poland, have a long list OWN crimes in Ukraine,Belorussia and Russia.
But you Nazis s..ker don't know about this of couse.

[Rising Sun*]

First of all its spelled humane and yes Germans were usually quite humane towards russian prisoners of war and prisoners of war in general .....

That is just absurd.

Never mind arguing about biased commentators, just go to the thousands of personal accounts of British, American, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand POWs of the Germans who witnessed, and were appalled by, the vastly worse treatment dished out by the Germans in the Russian compounds. They were always given much worse rations than the other Allied prisoners, if they got any rations at all, to the extent that other Allied prisoners on many occasions threw food to them and nearly caused a riot because the Russians were starving. Disgust at the appalling treatment of the Russians gets a mention in many recollections of other Allied troops who were held in camps which had Russian compounds.

The Germans were not humane towards Russian POWs. They were outrageously and criminally inhumane. Unlike you, the Germans at the time didn't even claim to be humane and they were in a better position to judge their own conduct.

From the very beginning, German policy on the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war (POWs) was determined by Nazi ideology. German political and military leaders regarded Soviet POWs not only as racially less valuable but as potential enemies, obstacles in the German conquest of 'living space." The Nazi regime claimed that it was under no obligation for the humane care of prisoners of war from the Red Army because the Soviet Union had not ratified the 1929 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War, nor had it specifically declared its commitment to the 1907 Hague Convention on the Rules of War. Technically both nations, therefore, were bound only by the general international law of war as it had developed in modern times. Yet even under that law, prisoners of war were to be protected. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007183

Read any half way balanced histories and this is what you'll find.

Because the targeted group consisted for the most part of soldiers in a bureaucratically-run modern army, the gendercide against Soviet prisoners-of-war is one of the best-documented of these case studies. Daniel Goldhagen, in Hitler's Willing Executioners (p. 290), gives the astonishing figure of "2.8 million young, healthy Soviet POWs" killed by the Germans, "mainly by starvation ... in less than eight months" of 1941-42, before "the decimation of Soviet POWs ... was stopped" and the Germans "began to use them as laborers" (emphasis added). There is good reason to think that this rate of killing exceeds even the worst period of the Holocaust against the Jews, although the total number killed was lower, and the Soviet victims were drawn from a much larger population base. Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint write in Total War that "The total number of prisoners taken by the German armies in the USSR was in the region of 5.5 million. Of these the astounding number of 3.5 million or more had been lost by the middle of 1944 and the assumption must be that they were either deliberately killed or done to death by criminal negligence. Nearly two million of them died in camps and close on another million disappeared while in military custody either in the USSR or in rear areas; a further quarter of a million disappeared or died in transit between the front and destinations in the rear; another 473,000 died or were killed in military custody in Germany or Poland." They add that "This slaughter of prisoners cannot be accounted for by the peculiar chaos of the war in the east. ... The true cause was the inhuman policy of the Nazis towards the Russians as a people and the acquiescence of army commanders in attitudes and conditions which amounted to a sentence of death on their prisoners."

These losses must be placed in the context of a war that killed as many as 40 million Soviets, including large numbers of non-combatants apart from the POWs. Nonetheless, Alexander Werth writes that "Next to the Jews in Europe, six million of whom perished at the hands of the Germans ... the biggest single German crime was undoubtedly the extermination by hunger, exposure and in other ways of ... [Soviet] war prisoners" (Russia At War, p. 634). Given that the bulk of the gendercide took place in just eight months, it was, together with the genocide in Rwanda, the most concentrated mass slaughter of all time, eclipsing the most exterminatory months of the Jewish holocaust. It was also without doubt the greatest single act of gender-exclusive killing in human history.

An important group of Soviet victims is also left out of these calculations: namely, those soldiers who never even reached captivity after surrendering. According to Ward Churchill, "perhaps as many as a million troops ... were simply executed by Wehrmacht and Waffen SS units rather than being taken prisoner in the first place." (Churchill, A Little Matter of Genocide [City Lights Books, 1997], p. 48.) http://www.gendercide.org/case_soviet.html


P.S. It's bad form to pick up people, and particularly non-English speakers, on their English. It's also very embarrassing for the critic when he makes basic mistakes himself in delivering the criticism.

But as you're being a smartarse in picking up Chevan on his English, note for future usage that in your quote its should be it's as it's a contraction of it is and not a possessive of it.

.

[Chevan]

But as you're being a smartarse in picking up Chevan on his English, note for future usage that in your quote its should be it's as it's a contraction of it is and not a possessive of it.

.
It's not honest...
But why did you not teach the english lessons for me befor?:)

[Rising Sun*]

But why did you not teach the english lessons for me befor?:)

Because it would be easier to teach an ape to be a computer programmer. :D

Although Microsoft seems to have tried that with some of its software. ;)

Mate, seriously, your English is understandable (most of the time, anyway:D), where people like Warpig have better English but with thinking which nobody can understand.

Better to be historically knowledgeable and understood in English than to be fluent in English but still historically ignorant. ;)

[Rising Sun*]

None of the following accounts are from people likely to have been infected by any supposedly distorted Soviet version of history.


From New Zealand

Russian POW's began to arrive at Stalag XVIIIA soon after Germany invaded Russia in 1941. These men were in a very poor state, most having traveled more than a thousand miles with very little food. Unfortunately they brought typhus into the camp and many prisoners died of the disease before it could be brought under control by the British doctors.

Russia was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention and so these prisoners received no Red Cross parcels or gifts from home. Every day a sack would be circulated around the British compound for any food that could be spared but this was far too little for so many. http://www.angelfire.com/nd/domneal/powar.html

From America

There were thousands of Russian prisoners at the camp and those that assisted us when we arrived said that the showers we used were the same ones that many Jews had been put to death in. At one time the Russians were lined up in ranks for days at a time in the cold month of March. They were being starved to death in an attempt by the Germans to force them to volunteer for the German army. Most of these men were Mongolians and Ukrainians. I have one remembrance when many of them fell to the ground after a long time of standing in ranks and were left where they lay. We heard machine gun fire during the night and in the morning there were dozens of them hanging in the wire and electric fence. They must have attempted escape by crawling through the barbed wire fence that surrounded all of us. The Nazi guards seemed to take special delight in this "sport". The British soldiers in the camp informed us that a few of the Russian men who previously did give in, were provided food, German uniforms and a propaganda speech before being shipped out and placed on the anti-aircraft guns that ringed the large cities being bombed. During the heavy air raids wave after wave of allied bombers blasted these positions and destroyed them completely. Germans considered Russian converts expendable.
.....

One day during an air raid, the German guards left the compound and took refuge in an air raid shelter in the camp. With no guards present some of us, curious of conditions and concerned about our fellow prisoners were able to enter the barracks in the Russian compound about 50 yards away and were horrified at what we saw. Dead bodies were everywhere. Men were so weak from starvation they could not stand and there were many of them on the floor where they had fallen. There was no medical aid whatsoever for any Russians. On rare occasions the German's would provide substantially more rations than normal and the starving prisoners would rush to get at the food. German guards, losing the slightest control at this point would bayonet these Russians, killing some, in order to maintain control. One has to wonder if this was a planned act. http://carol_fus.tripod.com/army_hero_arthur_gage.html

From the New Zealand official history

Probably the greatest threat to health came from typhus fever, to which thousands of Russian prisoners and many German soldiers fell victim. Typhus fever raged through the Russian camps from November 1941. Two New Zealanders, Captain Foreman and Private Butler, NZMC, who, with Captain Stevenson-Wright, volunteered to go and assist at the hospital at the Russian camp at Neuhammer, developed typhus in March 1942, but both recovered. The sick at this hospital came from the 60,000 Russians in the nearby camp, where conditions were deplorable. Most of the cases treated in the hospital were suffering from starvation associated with hunger oedema, tuberculosis, dysentery, and typhus. The daily diet in the camp consisted of no more than 1200–1400 calories, and the diet for the sick Russians in hospital was 250 grammes of bread, 10 grammes of margarine, 10 grammes of sugar, and swede soup morning and evening. The hospital of twenty wooden barracks, each housing 100 patients, was overcrowded; there was no soap, medical supplies were very inadequate, and there were no laboratory and surgical facilities. There were 100–200 typhus cases in hospital at one time, and 80–90 Russians died each day. As far as typhus was concerned, good nursing was the only possible treatment. This description of the conditions of the Russians gives an indication of what could have been the fate of our own prisoners of war. http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Surg-pt1-c27-6.html

A British view

There were French, Yugoslavian, Greek and Russian troops in the camp with us — 5,000 in all.

The Russian prisoners of war and civilians had been in the cattle trucks for weeks under terrible conditions. They were looked upon as vermin. A lot of the Russians had died, but as the ground was very hard and frozen, they were all stacked up ready to be buried by us when the ground thawed. Due to this, Typhus broke out, but the British were given vaccines supplied by the Red Cross. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/75/a7695075.shtml

[Rising Sun*]

Without Russian POWs, some Germans had to live in their own shit.

Moorehead accidentally found himself amidst a debate between a German pastor and an American officer who was trying to find in a bomb shelter occupied by German civilians some space for refugees. The pastor agreed to help and show vacant premises.

'I was in England before the war,' the pastor said. 'I had many friends there. This is the room for the air raid sirens. We were very much relieved when the bombers came and then passed on to some other place.' He was making a big effort to speak English slowly and carefully. 'Here is the first-aid. Here the ventilator room.' In each room the attendants jumped up when we entered and stood to attention.

'I must apologize for the lavatories,' the pastor said. 'Since the Russian prisoners went there has been no one to keep them clean.'

I asked why the Germans themselves could not clean their own lavatories, but he apparently did not understand and went on with some other subject. After half an hour I for one could stand no more, and we moved through the lower decks of the shelter towards the entrance. http://www.argo.net.au/andre/Moorehead_2_ENGL.htm

[Nickdfresh]

First of all its spelled humane and yes Germans were usually quite humane towards russian prisoners of war and prisoners of war in general .....

That is just absurd....

Yeah, a quote truly deserving of the Orwellian "Ministry of Truth" award...

The "humane" Ostheer and SS that would routinely strip Russian civilians of their winter clothing, and throw them out of their flats into subzero temperatures to die of exposure, must surely have treated their 'guest' Red Army soldiers to candy and tea!

[Rising Sun*]

Yeah, a quote truly deserving of the Orwellian "Ministry of Truth" award...

Warpig might be one of the pigs who subscribed to Orwell's Animal Farm motto:

'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.' ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Warpig might be one of the pigs who subscribed to Orwell's Animal Farm motto:

'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.' ;)

Maybe he's Squealer, rewriting the rules as needed on the wall. Much like his history...;)

I would suggest to him to read Anthony Beevor's "Stalingrad." A book that avoids neither the Red Army's embarrassing breakdown of discipline and Stalin's blunders. Nor does it spare the wanton brutality of the German's conducting a pitiless War against both the military and civilian populations of the Soviet Union; and their use of food, the the lack of it, as a weapon of this War...

At the end of the day, for all the outrages of Soviet soldiers in Eastern Europe and Germany, the death toll is telling, and the Soviets is far higher than anyone's. Save perhaps Poland's if we count statistical proportion......

[Rising Sun*]

At the end of the day, for all the outrages of Soviet soldiers in Eastern Europe and Germany, the death toll is telling, and the Soviets is far higher than anyone's.

Yes.

And their experience is something that none of us in the West can begin to comprehend.

The nearest thing anyone in the English speaking world experienced was the American Civil War, which was very gentle in comparison.

One advantage of being an outsider is that we can see the crimes of both sides without, as we often do with the crimes of our own side, having our national blinkers on.

But when it's all weighed up, the Nazis started a vicious campaign of indiscriminate racial butchery and extermination and they reaped as they sowed.

It doesn't make later Soviet actions right but, by Christ, it makes them bloody understandable!

On the other hand, the appalling Soviet treatment of their returning POW's, the few that survived, is a disgrace and another blot on the conduct of those running the workers' paradise.

[Egorka]

On the other hand, the appalling Soviet treatment of their returning POW's, the few that survived, is a disgrace and another blot on the conduct of those running the workers' paradise.
what did exactly happen to them?

[pdf27]

A substantial number of released Soviet PoWs (although probably not as many as popularly believed in the west) were shipped straight to the Gulag.

[ptimms]

So sorry we're talking about a photo of a German soldier possibly throwing a grenade at an armoured car where there may be wounded crewmen ? It's hardly the war crime of the century is it ? I've looked at the photo and I'd say its a staged one, if I'm 5 feet from an armoured car and 10 from a KV2 I'd not have my rifle on my shoulder.

[Egorka]

although probably not as many as popularly believed in the west
Exactly. :)

[Chevan]

It doesn't make later Soviet actions right but, by Christ, it makes them bloody understandable!

Hard not to agree.

On the other hand, the appalling Soviet treatment of their returning POW's, the few that survived, is a disgrace and another blot on the conduct of those running the workers' paradise.
What "returning POWs" do you mean?
May be the former Vlasovs' colloborationists who run away to the Western zone and have been later passed to the Soviets ?

[Ashes]

From Alan Clarke in ''Barbarossa''


......the obsessive German passion for carving notches on their guns has left us with a specific record of the treatment according to pow's. Recorded deaths in pow cages and compounds, 1,981,000. In addition to this is the sinister heading ''deaths and disappearances in transit'' with the total of 1,308,000. When these figures are augmented by the very large [but unverifiable] totals of men who were simply done to death on the spot where they surrendered, without ever passing through the prison cages........along with the mass murders and deportations, was the ''deliberate starvation of prisoner cages''

[Chevan]

From Alan Clarke in ''Barbarossa''

This is excellent book of Alan Clarke.
Can you link it in english?

[Ashes]

This is excellent book of Alan Clarke.
Can you link it in english?

Not in book form, just reviews.
I bought it in a reprint about 10 years ago, and as you say, it's an excellent read.

[Rising Sun*]

What "returning POWs" do you mean?
May be the former Vlasovs' colloborationists who run away to the Western zone and have been later passed to the Soviets ?

My understanding was that Stalin was concerned that just about all returning POWs might have been contaminated by Vlasov or were otherwise potentially untrustworthy, so he had most of them arrested on their return, whether or not they were part of Vlasov's army.

[snebold]

My understanding is that it was unpatriotic and criminal to surrender.

There´s the well known story of a Soviet POW who stole a He 111 and flew himself and other POW´s back to the USSR, only to be imprisoned until after Stalin´s death for example. Later he got the Hero of the Soviet Union medal.

Seems they were treated as traitors.

[Chevan]

There´s the well known story of a Soviet POW who stole a He 111 and flew himself and other POW´s back to the USSR, only to be imprisoned until after Stalin´s death for example. Later he got the Hero of the Soviet Union medal.

Seems they were treated as traitors.

Interesting story.Have you link on it?
I mean i am interested of English version. What were the other POWs?

[snebold]

Can´t find any of "my" sources, but Googled it right now...

http://minaev.blogspot.com/2008/02/february-8-in-russian-history.html

From this he was released in November 1945, and if correct, this is many years earlier than have been stated in what I´ve read...

Anyway, it´s a good story.

(Some British POW´s managed to hijack an Italian aircraft while airborne. Those are the only two cases of succesful POW hijacked aircraft in WWII).

[Rising Sun*]

What make the "veteran of ww1" Adolf Hitler to start the ethnicl clearising and persecutions in GErmany?

Good question.

What did convert the WWI Germans into Nazis with their anti-Semitic and Lebensraum and anti-Eastern European views?

There's no connection between Western Front experiences of the likes of Hitler and Goering and their later genocidal obsessions.

Deserves a separate thread.

[Chevan]

What did convert the WWI Germans into Nazis with their anti-Semitic and Lebensraum and anti-Eastern European views?

Deserves a separate thread.
Definitely.
If are you ready to discuss the very thin anti-semitic question mate?
You might start new thread about it.
Or to ask a Nick?..

[pdf27]

Random WW1 rubbish split out and moved here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7050

[Panzerknacker]

Soviet frontline "justice", applied by red army soldiers, stalinist stile, images of Germany and East prussia ( todays Poland), taken by the weekly newsreel after a sucessful german counterattack, march 1945.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9282/39175860oj5.jpg



http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4145/92600224ss2.jpg



http://i31.tinypic.com/2q07pyr.jpg

[Rising Sun*]

Soviet frontline "justice", applied by red army soldiers, stalinist stile, images of Germany and East prussia ( todays Poland), taken by the weekly newsreel after a sucessful german counterattack, march 1945.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9282/39175860oj5.jpg



http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4145/92600224ss2.jpg



http://i31.tinypic.com/2q07pyr.jpg


What do those pictures prove?

Anyone can put captions on pictures of corpses.


Let's accept for the purposes of debate that Soviets, which comprised Russians and many other Eastern European ethnic groups across a range to Mongols, did terrible things to people in the war.

Let's also recognise who started it, and who started abominable assaults on people in the East because they were untermensch or were in the way of getting some lebensraum.

What do we end up with?

Both sides did bad things.

If we are barracking for one side we will see all that they did as evil, and what the other side did as just.

And vice versa.

I'm not barracking for either side, so I see that they both did bad things.

But, for what it's worth, I reckon the aggressor who loses a gutter fight has no grounds for complaining about how he lost the fight he started. If you can't handle defeat, however it came about, don't start the fight. Don't whinge that you got your balls cut off when you were only kicking your opponent in the balls.

That's no consolation to the poor bastards on the defeated aggressor's side caught up in the fight who wanted no part of it, but if they have any complaint they should direct it to their people who started the fight.

The Soviets wouldn't have been in Germany in 1945 if the Germans hadn't gone into Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland years earlier, regardless of the division of the east between Germany and the USSR in some of those events.

It's the same as the Japanese whingeing about being nuked. It would never have happened if they didn't start the war.

Now, for a demonstration of how the scars of the European war have long been healed: :D http://youtube.com/watch?v=1k7U-_tJVmw

[Panzerknacker]

Another classic Wochenschau massacre at Lyov ( Todays Poland, near the border the former USSR)


Die Deutsche Wochenschau No. 566. July 9, 1941. German units advance upon Lemberg (L'vov).
1. Those are Soviet roads. Lemberg, the city shows the signs of heavy battle.Bavarian mountain troops, the same troops who in the fall of 1939 fought for this city, have captured it again this time.
2. The Ukrainian population heartily greets the German troops as their liberators from the bloody terror of Bolshevism. The Jewish agents of the GPU had slaughtered countless Ukrainian nationalists just prior fleeing the city. Thousand of innocent men and women were victims of the Bolshevik bloodbath. Here the bestial cruel murders took place.And they set fire to the evidence of their indescribable crimes at the prison, which has been captured by German troops. The fire has already been put out. And thus ceaselessly come out these monstrous criminal discoveries. The victims of these bestial murders are dragged out to be identified.Men and women, children and the elderly, none escaped this example of inhumanity. With knives,axes, hand grenades and machine pistols were these innocent victims slaughtered and martyred by the Bolshevik murderers.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7459/dibujoar4.jpg
[/URL]
[URL]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqDzzY8xp8 (http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7459/dibujoar4.jpg)

[Chevan]

Another classic Wochenschau massacre at Lyov ( Todays Poland, near the border the former USSR)

PZ if you will use a "classic Wochenschau" as a reliable source you soon should learn that the Falkland Island belongs the Agrentina:)
As for the Lvov ( not Lyov) - this city TODAY ( and ALWAYS) was Ukraininan since the 1918 , except the period of Polish occupation 1920-1939.
The Jewish agents of the GPU had slaughtered countless Ukrainian nationalists just prior fleeing the city.[/b] Thousand of innocent men and women were victims of the Bolshevik bloodbath. Here the bestial cruel murders took place.And they set fire to the evidence of their indescribable crimes at the prison, which has been captured by German troops. The fire has already been put out. And thus ceaselessly come out these monstrous criminal discoveries. The victims of these bestial murders are dragged out to be identified.Men and women, children and the elderly, none escaped this example of inhumanity. With knives,axes, hand grenades and machine pistols were these innocent victims slaughtered and martyred by the Bolshevik murderers.
Therefore the liberators have started the OWN terror after the capturing of Ukraine.
In lvov they start to kill immediatelly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Lviv_professors
After the German invasion of the Soviet Union started in June 1941, Lviv was captured on June 30. Along with the Wehrmacht, a number of smaller Abwehr units entered the city.

During the Nazi occupation almost all of the 120,000 Jewish inhabitants of the city were killed. All that survived at the end of the war were 200-800 Jewish inhabitants.

Members of other ethnic groups also suffered. In order to control the population, prominent citizens and intellectuals were transported to known execution sites such as the Gestapo prison on Pełczyńska Street, the Brygidki Prison, the former military prison at Zamarstynów and to the fields surrounding the city: in the suburb of Winniky, the Kortumówky hills and the Jewish Cemetery. Many of the people killed were prominent Polish politicians, artists, sportsmen, scientists and priests.
According the Wochenschau just "REVENGE" to Jews for the killed nationalists :shock:

[Chevan]

Soviet frontline "justice", applied by red army soldiers, stalinist stile, images of Germany and East prussia ( todays Poland), taken by the weekly newsreel after a sucessful german counterattack, march 1945.
There was no "Germans succesfull countreattack" in march 1945 in Eastern Prussia.
Probably this is the october-december 1944 , near Nemmersdorf ( Mayakovskoe carrenty)

[Chevan]

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7459/dibujoar4.jpg
[/URL]


Nazic excedeed the Red Civil terror in handreds of times.
In Kiev they immediatelly after the cupturing of city started the Ethnical mass execution in sadly know place- Babi Yar
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar (http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7459/dibujoar4.jpg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/1944_Soviet_investigators_at_Babi_Yar.jpg
The massacres of September 29-30, 1941
On September 28, leaflets in Russian, Ukrainian and German languages were posted in Kiev. The Russian announcement read:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Big-babijar14.jpg
(From the Russian translation) All Jews[7] of the city of Kiev and its environs must appear on Monday, September 29, 1941, by 8:00 AM on the corner of Melnіkov and Dokterivsky streets (near the cemetery). You are to take your documents, money, valuables, warm clothes, linen etc. Whoever of the Jews does not fulfill this order and is found in another place, shall be shot. Any citizen who enters the apartments that have been left and takes ownership of items will be shot.

[8]


Public announcement of September 28, 1941 in Russian, Ukrainian and German.More than thirty thousand of Kievan Jews gathered by the cemetery, expecting to be loaded onto trains for deportation. The commander of the Einsatzkommando reported two days later:

Because of 'our special talent of organisation', 'the Jews still believed to the very last moment before being executed that indeed all that was happening was that they were being resettled.[9]

The crowd was large enough that most of the men, women, and children could not have known what was happening until it was too late: by the time they heard the gunfire, there was no chance to escape. According to the testimony of truck driver Hofer:

I watched what happened when the Jews - men, women, and children - arrived. The Ukrainians led them past a number of different places where one after the other they had to remove their luggage, then their coats, shoes and over-garments and also underwear. They also had to leave their valuables in a designated place. There was a special pile for each article of clothing. It all happened very quickly and anyone who hesitated was kicked or pushed by the Ukrainians to keep them moving.

Victims were then ordered to undress, beaten if they resisted, and then shot at the edge of the Babi Yar gorge. According to the Einsatzgruppen Operational Situation Report[11], 33,771 Jews from Kiev and its suburbs were systematically shot dead by machine-gun fire at Babi Yar on September 29 and September 30, 1941.

[Panzerknacker]

All the propaganda in WW2 both allied and Axis is a mixture of true and lies, the german Wochenschau is not the exception to that rule.

The hard thing is to be capable to recognize the truth even in this staged films, but the truth is there if you are intelligent enough.

[Chevan]

All the propaganda in WW2 both allied and Axis is a mixture of true and lies, the german Wochenschau is not the exception to that rule.

Are you going to say that this WIKI article is a "mixture of true and lie" too?

The hard thing is to be capable to recognize the truth even in this staged films, but the truth is there if you are intelligent enough.
Exactly , but if you are intelligent enough, you should look not just at this Nazy film to learn the real true.
I never seen the scenec of public executions in cuptured Eastern cities in Wochenschau, however we have enough photo and video source of it.

[Rising Sun*]

The hard thing is to be capable to recognize the truth even in this staged films, but the truth is there if you are intelligent enough.

How do you recognise truth in a staged film?

For example, if there is a staged film of POW's being handed Red Cross parcels which are taken away from them as soon as the filming is finished, how does the viewer work out that truth when it's not in the staged film and is exactly the opposite of everything in the film?

[Panzerknacker]

You want me to explain how to be intelligent ? :) hehe,no can do.

No really serius I ll give a try to the topic how the german propaganda mixed up some things but that be in the "Die Deutsche Wochernchau" Topic in the german military section.


There was no "Germans succesfull countreattack" in march 1945 in Eastern Prussia.
Probably this is the october-december 1944 , near Nemmersdorf ( Mayakovskoe carrenty

The source said 1 march 1945, aniway if is in cinema in that date means it was filmed an edited earlier.

[Rising Sun*]

You want me to explain how to be intelligent ? :) hehe,no can do.

:D

No really serius I ll give a try to the topic how the german propaganda mixed up some things but that be in the "Die Deutsche Wochernchau" Topic in the german military section.

The source said 1 march 1945, aniway if is in cinema in that date means it was filmed an edited earlier.

How about we substitute 'knowledge' for 'intelligence'?

If we know enough about a subject we can see that a film isn't accurate in some respect.

But if the viewer is intelligent but lacks knowledge then the viewer won't know it misrepresents the event it portrays.

[Nickdfresh]

Not too mention that the Germans usually neglected to show footage of their own atrocities. Although such pictures exist, including and exhibition that caused a stir in Germany in the 1990s as it showed not the SS conducting extrajudicial killings, but regular Ostheer soldiers...

[frtychrs]

Eastern Front with no question was the bloodiest during the war The Soviets were fighting for there very lives as a nation for almost 3 years moral is someting that can never ever be overlooked in war! The Germans were fighting endless battles on the defensive after Stalingrad even with better trained seasoned vets and armor it didn't help the endless amount of Soviet armor and troops 10 million plus lost there lives liberating U.S.S.R. and advancing on Berlin.

[Panzerknacker]

Not too mention that the Germans usually neglected to show footage of their own atrocities


And why they should ? is obvious, the soviet russians didnt do it either.


If we know enough about a subject we can see that a film isn't accurate in some respect.



True but I think the knowlegde is part of being intelligent, I mean there is some ones in wich the propaganda is very evidents, but again that analisis is for the Wochenschau topic.

[Stasha]

Sad fact is Soviets started killing with the Nazi's. 1.7 million Polish shipped to Siberia starting Feb. 10, 1940. Yet the Jewish Poles that stayed behind felt they were to be spared. Where was the outrage when we were being taken, killed and raped.

[Chevan]

There was never 1,7 millions.
The figures of poles (osadniki) deported to the Syberia never exceeded the 450 000.And nobody executed the polish civils ( the Polish officers in Katyn is the other matter). They were simply the settlers of syberian villages - not prisoners of camps.
And most of them - no less 70% have been returned to the poland after the war. In fact the many jews got the chance to survive the Holocaust in Syberia while Nazic executed most of the other polish jews.

[Stasha]

Please back what you are saying. Kresy-Siberia.org Please this was not Stalin's Hotel. This "Siberian Village" is called "Gulag or Concentration Camp". In this 1.7 million were Polish military reserve that Stalin was getting even with. While Nazi executed "Polish Jew's" and others, Polish Catholic were slaved, frozen and starved to death in Siberia. We were not to live to tell. If not for Germany's attack we were to die there. It is a fact that amnesty saved the few that had lived to tell.

[Rising Sun*]

We were not to live to tell. If not for Germany's attack we were to die there. It is a fact that amnesty saved the few that had lived to tell.

When you say 'we', were you there?

If so, what were your experiences?

[Egorka]

Please back what you are saying.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124327&postcount=46
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96565&postcount=40

[Stasha]

My family were there. You are right Chevon, this number is much higher.

[Chevan]

My apologies Stasha, if something was wrong.
Where were your family exactly?

You are right Chevan, this number is much higher
Sorry i havent' understood this your phrase. Are you agree with figures of Egorka?Notice - this is the polish figures.Or you still think that 1,7 mln was a real figure?

[Egorka]

Sorry i havent' understood this your phrase. Are you agree with figures of Egorka?Notice - this is the polish figures.Or you still think that 1,7 mln was a real figure?
I think Stasha was being sarcastic. IMO, she is sure that the number of deported and otherwise victimised Polish citizens was higher than 1.7 million during the soviet era.
Well, I can only reffer he to the Polish Institute of National Remembrance (http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/en/1/2/Institute_of_National_Remembrance__Commission_for_ the_Prosecution_of_Crimes_agai.html).

[Chevan]

I think Stasha was being sarcastic. IMO, she is sure that the number of deported and otherwise victimised Polish citizens was higher than 1.7 million during the soviet era.
Soviet era?
But as i know after the ww2 nobody deported poles to the Syberia The polish Commies punished their dessidents by their power inside poland, till ww2 have been deported about half o millon.
Where have they got the figure of 1.7 million deported ? i have no idea..
BTW The Institute of National Remembrance - Commission of the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (IPN)
This is a good structure.
I think we need the simular instirute in Russia- kinda the Russian National Rememberance.We shall study and count here all the crimes of foreigners agains russian.

[Egorka]

Soviet era?
But as i know after the ww2 nobody deported poles to the Syberia The polish Commies punished their dessidents by their power inside poland
Chevan, you would have to ask Stasha as I can not know for sure what here stand is.
, till ww2 have been deported about half o millon.
320.000 were deported before June 1941.
Half a illion or about 540.000 people is the number of victims for the whole period of 1939 - 1953. And this number includes the deported 320.000 poeple.

Where have they got the figure of 1.7 million deported ? i have no idea..
1.7m is a folkelore number, i.e. the result of people's talk and rumours.
It is not bad as such. It was an estimate in the lack of veryfiable information.
Though we have a privilege of having more reliable figures.

[pdf27]

I think we need the simular instirute in Russia- kinda the Russian National Rememberance.We shall study and count here all the crimes of foreigners agains russian.
I think it would be more productive to remember all the crimes committed against Russians - whether by foreigners or Russians themselves. The same goes for any such insitutes in Poland, Uzbekistan, Rwanda, Lesotho or the Moon.

[flamethrowerguy]

Talking about crimes against russians: I saw this video clip from Chechenia lately were those Mudjahedin kill some of their russian POW's on a brute way by stabbing them in the neck or cutting their throats. Really, I am not a very sensible guy but after seeing this I lay in bed for hours but were not able to sleep cause this pictures were haunting me. Definitely the wordt I have ever seen in my live!!!

[Chevan]

I think it would be more productive to remember all the crimes committed against Russians - whether by foreigners or Russians themselves. The same goes for any such insitutes in Poland, Uzbekistan, Rwanda, Lesotho or the Moon.

The crimes russians against Russian is a matter of national public prosecutor's department, my friend .
As in any country as well.
But we in fact know nothing about the crimes agains our population, both pows and civils.This is the shame. For instance this is still mystery the fate of Red Army POWS in Polish concentration camps in 1920-21.The rare fragment of information that provides a polish side are very disputable .
We know nothing about crimes of Foreign troops in russia during the civil war as well.Within the Napoleonic wars and ets.
BTW do you have in Britain the simular institute that study the British crimes?

[Chevan]

320.000 were deported before June 1941.
Half a illion or about 540.000 people is the number of victims for the whole period of 1939 - 1953. And this number includes the deported 320.000 poeple.

I know it mate i just meant the half million with Polish POWs ( about 240 000).
320 +240 = 560 000 the total figure of poles who have been removed to the Soviet territory at all till the 1941.

[Chevan]

Talking about crimes against russians: I saw this video clip from Chechenia lately were those Mudjahedin kill some of their russian POW's on a brute way by stabbing them in the neck or cutting their throats. Really, I am not a very sensible guy but after seeing this I lay in bed for hours but were not able to sleep cause this pictures were haunting me. Definitely the wordt I have ever seen in my live!!!
Yea it was very disgusting view. I saw it once i and felt the simular.
TO the happines most of those Mudjahedins today feed the worms under ground.As Allah wished for them..

[flamethrowerguy]

Yes, probably, but I still hope they are not having fun with 77 virgins they were promised by Allah as well...

[Chevan]

Yes, probably, but I still hope they are not having fun with 77 virgins they were promised by Allah as well...
I hope they have fun with each others ....or with 77 donkeys...:)

[imi]

flamethoweruy:about 10 or 11 years before I saw a tape,about 40 minuits long from serbia,that was an amateur video,with full of torture.There was a man in that video,who cutted off his penis,and eated with himself,the enemy soldiers.The tape is not a public,there was a half serbian,and half hungarian guy give it to me,who escaped from the war,to Hungary.
That is make me also that time some sleepless night!

[pdf27]

BTW do you have in Britain the simular institute that study the British crimes?
If you mean crimes against the British Populace, then we don't. We're in the very fortunate position indeed that the last invading army to succeed against England was the Normans in 1066, while against Scotland it was arguably the English army putting down the Jacobite rebellion of 1745. There appear to be at least some museums (http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/Default.aspx?Id=77&mode=collection) covering this.

[Nickdfresh]

Yes, probably, but I still hope they are not having fun with 77 virgins they were promised by Allah as well...


Or 72 raisins, depending on the translation...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

[flamethrowerguy]

Yummie, at least they shouldn't have problems with occlusion and spend some time on the john afterwards. That would be the effect on me...

[flamethrowerguy]

flamethoweruy:about 10 or 11 years before I saw a tape,about 40 minuits long from serbia,that was an amateur video,with full of torture.There was a man in that video,who cutted off his penis,and eated with himself,the enemy soldiers.The tape is not a public,there was a half serbian,and half hungarian guy give it to me,who escaped from the war,to Hungary.
That is make me also that time some sleepless night!

This is just something somebody shouldn't watch, it's just too much for us halfway civilized people and crosses the boundaries of the psychic endurance. Yes, there was quite something going on in Bosnia in the midst of the 90's. I talked with a lot of people (croats, serbs, bosniaks you name them) who were down there either as soldiers or civilians. Unimaginably for Europe at the end of the 20th century...

[Rising Sun*]

This is just something somebody shouldn't watch, it's just too much for us halfway civilized people and crosses the boundaries of the psychic endurance. Yes, there was quite something going on in Bosnia in the midst of the 90's. I talked with a lot of people (croats, serbs, bosniaks you name them) who were down there either as soldiers or civilians. Unimaginably for Europe at the end of the 20th century...

You think the rest of Europe, or anywhere else in the world, couldn't do it now, or in the future?

It could.

The whole history of mankind is punctuated with such abominations.

[flamethrowerguy]

I travel and see a lot and I insist: hard to imagine something like this in Central Europe nowadays. You know why, and what I say now isn't p.c. I know (but I do not care): We aren't muslims or any other religious fanatics!

[Stasha]

Soviet era?
But as i know after the ww2 nobody deported poles to the Syberia The polish Commies punished their dessidents by their power inside poland, till ww2 have been deported about half o millon.
Where have they got the figure of 1.7 million deported ? i have no idea..
BTW The Institute of National Remembrance - Commission of the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (IPN)
This is a good structure.
I think we need the simular instirute in Russia- kinda the Russian National Rememberance.We shall study and count here all the crimes of foreigners agains russian.

I am sorry I did not answer sooner. Number of Polish sent to Siberia has been ignored. A number of confirmed is 1.6 million and most say this number is under the actual victims. My family were in area of what you would today call western Ukraine, military front line in 1920 were given this property.

As with "Katyn" the families were in this area were slaughter, raped, and sent to concentration camps under conditions that many, many died. Lets see they died when Soviets took over eastern Poland, they died from cold, starvation, disease in cattle cars, they died a slow painful death in Siberia. Lets not forget the ones simply shot for they were Polish. Bodies of Polish line the railroad tracks, no graves were dug they just left piles of bodies. Then when amnesty was granted, now more died (as they were not given a way out) escaping Siberia.


This link below shows a map from Polish Army and it give a number over 1 million. Others links are over 2 million.

http://www.polonica.net/Polskosc_deportowana.htm

This artical shows more deaths that everyone pretends they are "not aware". Tell me how 60,000 can be brutally murdered and they are not aware?

Ukraine is not aware of Volhynia
Marcin Wojciechowski "Gazeta Wyborcza" Marcin Wojciechowski, "Gazeta Wyborcza" 2008-07-10, ostatnia aktualizacja 2008-07-10 13:22 2008-07-10, last updated 2008-07-10 13:22
Polacy mają słuszne poczucie, że byli ofiarą tragedii wołyńskiej. Poles have the right feeling that they had been the victim of the tragedy wołyńskiej. Ale Ukraińcy pamiętają, że to my blokowaliśmy ich słuszne aspiracje niepodległościowe But Ukrainians remember that we blokowaliśmy their legitimate aspirations for independence

Fot. Photo. Bartosz Bobkowski / AG Bartosz Bobkowski / AG Staram się śledzić ukraińską prasę regularnie. I try to keep track of the Ukrainian press regularly. Choć w tym roku mija 65. Although this year passes 65 rocznica tragedii wołyńskiej - gdy ukraińscy nacjonaliści rozpoczęli tzw. wołyńskiej anniversary of the tragedy - when Ukrainian nationalists began their so-called. antypolską akcję na Wołyniu iw Galicji wschodniej, w której zginęło przynajmniej 60 tys. antypolską action on the eastern Galicia and Volhynia, which killed at least 60 thousand. Polaków, a 20 tys. Poles, and 20 thousand. Ukraińców zabito w akcjach odwetowych - to w ukraińskiej prasie w ostatnich miesiącach nie ukazał się żaden ważny głos na ten temat. Ukrainians were killed in punitive actions - in the Ukrainian press in recent months not released any important votes on this issue. Co najwyżej pojawiają się krótkie notatki będące echem tego, jak Polacy chcą uczcić rocznicę. At most, there are brief notes are an echo of how the Poles want to celebrate the anniversary. Skąd to milczenie? How to silence? - Nie ma kto mobilizować ukraińskich elit intelektualnych ani politycznych. -- There is no one who mobilize the Ukrainian political and intellectual elites. W poprzednich latach było inaczej. In previous years, this was not the case. Taka dyskusja w sprawie Wołynia trwała, a nawet przyniosła pewne owoce - mówi Bogumiła Berdychowska, publicystka, znawczyni spraw ukraińskich. Such a discussion on the Volhyn lasted, and even brought some fruit - says Bogumiła Berdychowska, journalist, znawczyni Ukrainian affairs.

Dziś w Warszawie odbędzie się konferencja IPN na temat Wołynia. Today in Warsaw conference will be held Brief on Volhyn. Prezydent Lech Kaczyński słusznie zrezygnował z objęcia nad nią patronatu, bo niektóre wystąpienia mogłyby zaszkodzić stosunkom polsko-ukraińskim. President Lech Kaczyński rightly resigned over her coverage of patronage, because some instances might be detrimental to the Polish-Ukrainian relations.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://wyborcza.pl/1,75515,5443008,Ukraina_nie_wie_o_Wolyniu.html&usg=ALkJrhg903Um7RnOOPYCup3-5ubPH-Wmcw

[Egorka]

This link below shows a map from Polish Army and it give a number over 1 million. Others links are over 2 million. http://www.polonica.net/Polskosc_deportowana.htm
You think???
Do not you think that the site WWW.POLONICA.NET appears to be a tyny bit ... psychotic?


Some random snippets from the site. Now, excuse my imperfect Polish skills:

http://www.polonica.net/imag/PRL-PRL-bis_.jpg
List of the Jews - jewcratia in enslaved Poland (http://www.polonica.net/Lista_zydow_w_zniewalanej_Polsce.htm)
America under Jewish control. (http://www.polonica.net/Ameryka_pod_zydowska_kontrola.htm)
http://www.polonica.net/imag/JohnKlossasemiticCartoon.jpg
Anti-Polish anti-people Jewish propaganda (Antypolska i antynarodowa żydopropaganda)
And can you please translate this: "Polska bez żydostwa i żydzizmów! "de non tolerandis judeis!” What does it mean. We are all curious in here."
Splendid!

[Kovalski]

Stasha, I'm afraid that you've just scored an own goal...

Polonica.net is just a bunch of sick anti-semitic and anti-everything people suffering from a huge range of complexes. If you refer to that site as a serious historic source, you only expose yourself to ridicule. I'm sorry to say that in this way but as soon you stop mentioning these people in you posts the better it is for you.

BTW, Egorka gave you the best examples of what they are made of, please translate that into english.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[Chevan]

I am sorry I did not answer sooner. Number of Polish sent to Siberia has been ignored. A number of confirmed is 1.6 million and most say this number is under the actual victims.
Confirmed by whom?
You shall realize this is a historian forum , not a place for rumors and gossips.

As with "Katyn" the families were in this area were slaughter, raped, and sent to concentration camps under conditions that many, many died. Lets see they died when Soviets took over eastern Poland, they died from cold, starvation, disease in cattle cars, they died a slow painful death in Siberia. Lets not forget the ones simply shot for they were Polish. Bodies of Polish line the railroad tracks, no graves were dug they just left piles of bodies. Then when amnesty was granted, now more died (as they were not given a way out) escaping Siberia.
Sorry this is a stream of unconfirmed assertions.
The deportation was a harsh but it wasn't genocide.

This link below shows a map from Polish Army and it give a number over 1 million. Others links are over 2 million.

Do you mean the 1 or 2 million of what?
Polish POWs? or civils?

This artical shows more deaths that everyone pretends they are "not aware". Tell me how 60,000 can be brutally murdered and they are not aware?

Ukraine is not aware of Volhynia
This is whole other thread , but... I tell you more.
It was not 60 but at least 200 000 victims of Ethnical terror in Volun and Galicia in 1943-44.
We had a hot thred about this with one of the Ukrainian member.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790&highlight=Ukrainian+Army
It was resault of UPA atrocities .
And you make a mistake , tryuing to associate us with the Ukrainians Nationalists ( the most fierce people IMO , who killed even locals ukrainisn for "colloborationism" with Soviet authorities)

[Rising Sun*]

You think the rest of Europe, or anywhere else in the world, couldn't do it now, or in the future?

It could.

The whole history of mankind is punctuated with such abominations.

Subsequent posts confirm the endless enmity I see in European, primarily eastern European and Balkan, areas, and just on this forum.

They reinforce my view that, apart from the usual human savagery not far under the skin of most of us, there is a great deal of old scores to settle which would encourage a new round of savagery if a war or just civil tolerance of violent bigotry was unleashed in Europe and around its borders. Bosnia ain't too long ago. Nor is Kampuchea. Or Rwanda. Or the last Los Angeles riots. Every nation has this badness in it.

However, on a lighter note, it appears that recent advances in Albania have brought it all the benefits of a developed nation, so I don't know why there should be any more problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7m8OBIxBU&feature=related :)

[Chevan]

Subsequent posts confirm the endless enmity I see in European, primarily eastern European and Balkan, areas, and just on this forum.

Yes unfortinatelly the old eastern european prejudices stiil exists today. Moreover the contemporary so called National-democtaric govenments sometimes very unresponsible in the inner behaviour.The race and ethnical matter could be heard here.
I told how the contemporary Orangoids in Ukraine, try the blame the other nations in their Holodomore. this is probably most insolent neo-fascism and ethnical extremism, that of cource will have the negative consequences ( they probably planed and wished it) for our countries.

They reinforce my view that, apart from the usual human savagery not far under the skin of most of us, there is a great deal of old scores to settle which would encourage a new round of savagery if a war or just civil tolerance of violent bigotry was unleashed in Europe and around its borders. Bosnia ain't too long ago. Nor is Kampuchea. Or Rwanda. Or the last Los Angeles riots. Every nation has this badness in it.

However, on a lighter note, it appears that recent advances in Albania have brought it all the benefits of a developed nation, so I don't know why there should be any more problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7m8OBIxBU&feature=related :)
He hE he.
Mate i/m sure the new Albania would has shown itself in Europe.:)

[Stasha]

"Confirmed by whom?
You shall realize this is a historian forum , not a place for rumors and gossips"

Professor Edward J. Rozek: "Allied Wartime Diplomacy: A Pattern in Poland": "From September 17, 1939 to June 1941, 1.692.000 Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Byelorussians were forcibly taken from their homes and deported to Russia. The number included 230.000 soldiers and officers of the Polish Army; 990.000 civilians, who were deported because of their 'nationalistic bourgeois background'; 250.000 political 'class enemies'; 210.000 Poles conscripted into the Red Army and then sent deep into the Soviet Union; and 12.000 other Poles gathered forcibly from the Baltic area. Among the deportees were 160.000 children and adolescents. . These figures were compiled by the Polish Embassy in the USSR during the period from August 1941 to April 1943 and are based on testimony of over 18.000 eyewitnesses - Poles who passed through prisons, concentration camps and forced labour camps in the Soviet Union. This collection is now in the Hoover Library on War, Revolution, and Peace in Stanford, California".

Julian Siedlecki: "Losy Polakow w ZSRR w latach 1939-1986": "Polish authorities estimated that around 1.500.000 Polish citizens were deported to the Soviet Union".
6. Michael Hope: "Polish Deportees in the Soviet Union", ISBN 0 948202 76 9: Including the relatively small percentage of Ukrainians, Jews and Byelorussians, the total number of Polish citizens deported to the Soviet Government during its 'eternal friendship' with Nazi Germany

&

Between 1939 and 1941 amounted to approximately 1,680,000 people, not including prisoners of war. There is a broad measure of agreement with this figure. Zubrzycki records in 1956 an estimated figure of one and a half million. This was revised upwards to a new figure of 1,700.000 in 1944 by the then Polish Government in exile. The Institute of Jewish Affairs in the US puts it at two million, of whom 500,000 were Jews. This latter figure is disputed, and the latest estimate (1972), compiled by the Sikorski Museum and the Polish Institute is 1,680,000, supported by calculations made by the Catholic Church. It is important to stress that these figures do not include military deportees."

I've also found an article from a Polish newspaper in France, published in 1954:

Poles In the Depths of the USSR
The nightmarish fruits of the deportations

The overall number of Polish citizens deported by the NKVD from our eastern territories to the Soviet Union in the period 17th Sept.1939-July 1941 totaled 1.692.000 people. This figure comes from the following:
a) prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign 230.000
b) those interned after the 1939 campaign 12.000
c) those sent to labour camps 990.000
d) those condemned to prison 250.000
e) those incorporated into the Red Army 210.000

Total 1.692.000

In late autumn 1939 a decree was announced in the camps where Polish prisoners of war were interned (men) that all those who came from the territories occupied by the Red Army could return to their homes. Soon around 46.000 left the camps.

On July 30, 1941 Polish Government in London signed a treaty with the Soviet Union, as a result of which Russia was to release all the Polish citizens deported since 17th Sept.39.

Throughout February 1942 preparations were carried out to fulfill this agreement. The representatives of the Polish Government were bringing prisoners of war from whom army divisions were being formed. Unfortunately the