View Full Version : The Balkan War Thread
You mean an area that is predominately Kosovars will be able to elect their own leaders now to represent their interests? How dare anyone have rights!
So the enclaves with Muslims and non-white emigrants in the EU or the US and other states are entitled to elect their leaders if they don't like the ones of the original population and declare independence. It is wonderful.
Maybe if the Serbs hadn't let a fascist, corrupt baby-killing nationalist asshole be their dictator, then much of this would never have happened...
Yeah, baby eating. Especially considering the fact that the number of Albanians after the arrival of the NATO troops even growed in Kosovo and the number of Serbs slumped by 90 %. And of course you mean that the NATO troops, that were to maintain law and order, did not connive or turn a blind eye at the ethnic cleansing organised by Albanians that led to that catastrophic decrease of the Serbian population in Kosovo.
Miloshovich, the head of Socialist Party that is the part of the socialistic international, was a fascist? How did you figure out that?
By the way, Serbian paramilitary organizations in Bosnia were also tied to drug dealers and gangsters...
They had nothing to do with drug gansters. In the meanwhile the Albanian maphia, drug dealers and smugglers are notorious across the whole EU.
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 08:37 AM
So the enclaves with Muslims and non-white emigrants in the EU or the US and other states are entitled to elect their leaders if they don't like the ones of the original population and declare independence. It is wonderful.
Yes. Autonomous regions that think their interests better served by their own leaders after the ethnic minority depopulated the country through state terrorism probably should have this right.
I'm sorry Serbia has a bunch of churches there, but that doesn't give them the right to dictate to the Kosovars...
Yeah, baby eating. Especially considering the fact that the number of Albanians after the arrival of the NATO troops even growed in Kosovo and the number of Serbs slumped by 90 %.
They left on their own volition out of fear. There are still Serbs in the country, but as they were through a civil war, obviously there's going to be animosity...
And of course you mean that the NATO troops, that were to maintain law and order, did not connive or turn a blind eye at the ethnic cleansing organised by Albanians that led to that catastrophic decrease of the Serbian population in Kosovo.
Again, most of the Serbs left only because Serbia lost direct control. But there seem to be plenty left, and forgive me if I do not trust your statistics....
Miloshovich, the head of Socialist Party that is the part of the socialistic international, was a fascist? How did you figure out that?
inter'National Socialist? Does your rose by any other name smell as sweet?
They had nothing to do with drug gansters. In the meanwhile the Albanian maphia, drug dealers and smugglers are notorious across the whole EU.
LMAFO!! In Bosnia, the Serb warlords terrorized people out of their houses so they could take the land, the profit was great! And Slobodan was a basic crook, a corrupt embezzler...
Yes. Autonomous regions that think their interests better served by their own leaders after the ethnic minority depopulated the country through state terrorism probably should have this right.
I'm sorry Serbia has a bunch of churches there, but that doesn't give them the right to dictate to the Kosovars...
"depopulated the country through state terrorism" Are you sick? Check the figures of civilain losses and refugees from Kosovo and you'll find out that the state terrorists are Albanians, and the US pilots are the real baby-killers.
"State terrorism" of Serbs in Kosovo is a fake invented by the Western Media. If there had been state terrorism the Albanian population would have been genocided within a week. There is state terrorism on behalf of Albanians and their patrons from the US, EU and NATO that resulted in the enormous decrease of the Serbian population.
According to your logic Serbs in Kosovo is the ethnic minority depopulated the country through state terrorism that should have the right to
regain control over Kosovo.
They left on their own volition out of fear. There are still Serbs in the country, but as they were through a civil war, obviously there's going to be animosity...
Albanian bulling and attacks combined with the NATO's indifference forced them to leave. Albanians can't calm down and destroy Christian churches in the areas where there are no Serbs. If there were Serbs, Albanians would attack Serbs. Do you know that Serbian children from few Serbian enclaves can't go to school if there are no NATO convoy accompanying them to school. But even NATO convoys do not prevent Albanians from attacks or throwing stones at school buses
inter'National Socialist? Does your rose by any other name smell as sweet?
The socialistic international includes social-democrats and other left parties of
the EU. The parties rule in the EU. So you can call them fascist as well alongside with Miloshevich's party.
LMAFO!! In Bosnia, the Serb warlords terrorized people out of their houses so they could take the land, the profit was great! And Slobodan was a basic crook, a corrupt embezzler...
And Muslim warlords did not terrorize anyone, just conducted humanitarian operations.
By the way, Usama Ben Laden sponsored local Muslims troops and was granted Bosnian citizenship for that.
The Serbskaja Krajina created in Bosnia was the state with its own president, government and armed forces. Miloshevich was president of Yugoslavia made up of Serbia and Monte Negro. He wasn't member of the government of Serbskaja Krajina.
He faced the pressure from two sides: from the Serbs of Yugoslavia who demanded to give support to Serbs in and the West demanding the opposite.
Misloshevich's relation to the war in Bosnia was limited to letting Serbian volonteers from Yugoslavia to take part in the war as well as transferring some armaments and ammunition to Bosnian Serbs before sanctions were imposed. If Milsoshevich hadn't done it he would have been removed from power then.
It was Miloshevich who forced Serbs in Bosnia to lay down their arms. It is funny that this former communistic bureaucrat who collaborated with the West and betrayed Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, is called a fascist by brainwashed westerners.
His destiny is very hortative. He has betrayed Serbs many times to please the
US but it did not save him from being arrested and death in prison. In the meanwhile the leaders of Serbska Krajina who did not betray their people are still alive and at large.
Unlike Albanians, Serbs and Croats are not allowed to form their own states in Bosnia though they waged a war for it. They are kept with Muslims under the US and NATO's control. Muslim population enjoys generous donations from international Islamic welfare organizations, grows and mainly stays in Bosnia, while Serbs and Croats receive no support and are leaving because there are no jobs, mo means for life.
Today Bosnia is converted into a state with mainly Muslim population under the guidence of the US, EU and NATO.
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Unlike Albanians, Serbs and Croats are not allowed to form their own states in Bosnia though they waged a war for it. They are kept with Muslims under the US and NATO's control. Muslim population enjoys generous donations from international Islamic welfare organizations, grows and mainly stays in Bosnia, while Serbs and Croats receive no support and are leaving because there are no jobs, mo means for life.
Um, the Croatia has benefited the most of any state there arguably. It was money from the EU and the US which helped them defeat the Serb/Yugoslav Army which ultimately led to an end to that phase of the conflict!
And again, feel free to support any of this with something approaching unbiased news analysis...
Today Bosnia is converted into a state with mainly Muslim population under the guidence of the US, EU and NATO.
Because it was mostly a Muslim populated state to begin with! And you failed to mention Croatia and Slovenia, two Catholic countries that were the first to break with Yugoslavia. But thanks for proving my point that Muslims, such as the ones in Bosnia, are capable of building a largely secularized modern European welfare state...
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;123503]Um, the Croatia has benefited the most of any state there arguably. It was money from the EU and the US which helped them defeat the Serb/Yugoslav Army which ultimately led to an end to that phase of the conflict!
And again, feel free to support any of this with something approaching unbiased news analysis...
What money? Ask any Croat whether he or she wants the Croation state to be formed in Bosnia. It was the Croatian goal while fightings in Bosnia took place. The goal of Muslim was to keep Bosnia in one piece.
You just avoid answering why Serbs and Croats are not allowed to form their separate states in Bosnia while Albanians are allowed.
Because it was mostly a Muslim populated state to begin with! And you failed to mention Croatia and Slovenia, two Catholic countries that were the first to break with Yugoslavia. But thanks for proving my point that Muslims, such as the ones in Bosnia, are capable of building a largely secularized modern European welfare state...
Secularized modern European welfare state?
I see the country that is still directly run by foreign administration made up mainly from the US and EU bureaucrats and that exists as one piece only due to NATO troops is on the way to become secularized modern European welfare state. Or perhaps it is a prototype of building future secularized modern European welfare states in other parts of Europe?
And the financial donations to local Muslims are made from outside. It resembles the case with Palestine that exists only on foreign Islamic donations.
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 02:16 PM
"depopulated the country through state terrorism" Are you sick? Check the figures of civilain losses and refugees from Kosovo and you'll find out that the state terrorists are Albanians, and the US pilots are the real baby-killers.
Oh, how conveniently you yet again ignore how the entire Albanian population was driven out via terror induced ethnic cleansing. The numbers murdered in massacres was exaggerated albeit. But there were still killings, and selective threats of violence punctuated by the use of it, to drive out the Albanians ..
And the NATO pilots were far from just US ones, and they killed a lot less babies than the fascist cunts of the Serb paramilitaries. They certainly were more discerning of their targets. But as Harris said: "he who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind."
"State terrorism" of Serbs in Kosovo is a fake invented by the Western Media.
LMFAO Nutter! Yeah, because US/European state media had interests in the Muslims?
Thanks, Joseph Goebbels! It's all a conspiracy! Good one!
If there had been state terrorism the Albanian population would have been genocided within a week. There is state terrorism on behalf of Albanians and their patrons from the US, EU and NATO that resulted in the enormous decrease of the Serbian population.
Oh, yeah. I guess the entire country side was depopulated by Albanians in 1998 how?
According to your logic Serbs in Kosovo is the ethnic minority depopulated the country through state terrorism that should have the right to
regain control over Kosovo.
Um, the Serbs are a minority, by a wide margin. They never comprised more than 10% of the region, which they still are today. BTW, over 6% of the Kosovo police service is Serb, which makes their represented numbers below the overall population, but not radically so...
Albanian bulling and attacks combined with the NATO's indifference forced them to leave. Albanians can't calm down and destroy Christian churches in the areas where there are no Serbs. If there were Serbs, Albanians would attack Serbs. Do you know that Serbian children from few Serbian enclaves can't go to school if there are no NATO convoy accompanying them to school. But even NATO convoys do not prevent Albanians from attacks or throwing stones at school buses
:rolleyes:
The socialistic international includes social-democrats and other left parties of
the EU. The parties rule in the EU. So you can call them fascist as well alongside with Miloshevich's party.
I called Milosevic a fascist, because he was one. I said nothing about his party, which finally dumped him after successive defeats for corruption. He used the mechanisms of state control to destroy all opposition, including drafting anti-war Serb college students into the Army...
And Muslim warlords did not terrorize anyone, just conducted humanitarian operations.
No one had EVER said that, for about the third time. If the Bosnian (or Croatian) Army have their wanted War criminals, they should be thrown into prison after a trail in front of the Hague...
But the Serbs had the power of a decomposing state behind them. It was Serbian warlords that inherited the Yugoslav weapons, and used them first...
By the way, Usama Ben Laden sponsored local Muslims troops and was granted Bosnian citizenship for that.
And US Pres. Ronald Reagan support Muslims like Bin Laden during the Soviet-Afghan War, even Bin Laden's unit...
He also volunteered to lead a Jihad against Saddam Hussein after he invaded Kuwait in 1990!
BTW, the involvement of the Islamic fanatics was one of the biggest justifications of NATO's involvement, to cut them off and prevent radicalization based on abandonment by the West to the tyrannies of the Armies of the Serb Orthodox pricks...
The Serbskaja Krajina created in Bosnia was the state with its own president, government and armed forces. Miloshevich was president of Yugoslavia made up of Serbia and Monte Negro. He wasn't member of the government of Serbskaja Krajina.
Who supported the Warlords and prevented the Bosnians from acquiring the Weapons from state arsenals, dismissing their army reserve units and disbanding all predominately Muslim or Catholic Croat Yugoslav Army units.... BTW, the Yugoslavian Army was an active participant in all the resulting Wars...
He faced the pressure from two sides: from the Serbs of Yugoslavia who demanded to give support to Serbs in and the West demanding the opposite.
Misloshevich's relation to the war in Bosnia was limited to letting Serbian volonteers from Yugoslavia to take part in the war as well as transferring some armaments and ammunition to Bosnian Serbs before sanctions were imposed. If Milsoshevich hadn't done it he would have been removed from power then.
A complete load of crap! Regular units of the Yugoslav Army entered and also were used as advisers. They provided weapons to the Serb militias that had a clear advantage in armor, artillery, aircraft, and of overall firepower.
This negated the one Bosnian advantage of infantry strength. When the Bosnians managed to acquire armor, along with NATO air strikes (largely in response to the Serbs taking NATO troops hostage and using them as Human Shields), that's when the end came...
It was Miloshevich who forced Serbs in Bosnia to lay down their arms. It is funny that this former communistic bureaucrat who collaborated with the West and betrayed Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, is called a fascist by brainwashed westerners.
It was Milosevic that realized that they could no longer fight a resurgent Bosnian Army getting heavy weapons, and pressure from NATO air forces. Nothing more than a cynical attempt to keep power and to get the best deal he could..
His destiny is very hortative. He has betrayed Serbs many times to please the
US but it did not save him from being arrested and death in prison. In the meanwhile the leaders of Serbska Krajina who did not betray their people are still alive and at large.
LMAFO! The Serb bastard leaders betrayed their own people in the sickeningly 19th century bloodfued goal of building a "Greater Serbia."
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 02:26 PM
[QUOTE]
What money? Ask any Croat whether he or she wants the Croation state to be formed in Bosnia. It was the Croatian goal while fightings in Bosnia took place. The goal of Muslim was to keep Bosnia in one piece.
You just avoid answering why Serbs and Croats are not allowed to form their separate states in Bosnia while Albanians are allowed.
The Serbs and Croats already have states! Of course then, perhaps Muslim and Croats in Serbia could for their own states there then?
BTW, "by your logic," the Ukraine should have been made a de facto part of Russia by now since the minority of Russians obviously feel their rights will be violated under the orange state...
Secularized modern European welfare state?
I see the country that is still directly run by foreign administration made up mainly from the US and EU bureaucrats and that exists as one piece only due to NATO troops is on the way to become secularized modern European welfare state. Or perhaps it is a prototype of building future secularized modern European welfare states in other parts of Europe?
It's run by the elected representatives of the Bosnian gov't. Everything else is your opinion brandished as fact....
And the financial donations to local Muslims are made from outside. It resembles the case with Palestine that exists only on foreign Islamic donations.
You mean Serbia doesn't "donate" to it's own population? There were Serbs in the US that "donated" to their families in Yugoslavia during the Wars. So what?
And Palestine (as Israel) receives far more US money that it does "Islamic." :rolleyes:
Oh, how conveniently you yet again ignore how the entire Albanian population was driven out via terror induced ethnic cleansing...
And the NATO pilots were far from just US ones, and they killed a lot less babies than the fascist cunts of the Serb paramilitaries...
Strangely enough the massive fleeing of Albanians started when Americans started to bomb Kosovo. besides there were numerous reports when UCK forced civilian Albanians to leave Kosovo in order to accieve their PR goals about the genocide of Albanians that turned out to be a fake and the fairy tales about this genocide of Albanians is not repeated even by the Western Mass Medias any longer.
Egorka gave statistics in the thread about Kosovo that were removed by you. That statistics showed that the number of civilians killed by American bombing is close to the figure of all the civilian and military Albanian losses inflicted by Serbs for years of activities of albanian UCK
You closed the thread Egorka asked why
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5722&highlight=Kosovo
You murmured something indistict and then deleted it
And now you start to troll about Joseph Goebbels. Very smart.
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Strangely enough the massive fleeing of Albanians started when Americans started to bomb Kosovo. besides there were numerous reports when UCK forced civilian Albanians to leave Kosovo in order to accieve their PR goals about the genocide of Albanians that turned out to be a fake and the fairy tales about this genocide of Albanians is not repeated even by the Western Mass Medias any longer.
Genocide was never the Serbian goal, ethnic cleansing was. In fact, the more hideous aspects of the Serbian gov't instances and polices of state terror have largely been hidden from the population. Obviously, most Serbs would not have supported rounding up people and gassing them...
But there were eyewitness testimonies of attacks, given freely by Albanian civilians with no KLA guns to their heads, while in the relative safety of Albania...
Bodies were found, and people were killed extra-judicially. Just not on the scale previously believed. And the KLA never would have had the power to force out their entire population, certainly not if the Serb security forces prevented them....
Egorka gave statistics in the thread about Kosovo that were removed by you. That statistics showed that the number of civilians killed by American bombing is close to the figure of all the civilian and military Albanian losses inflicted by Serbs for years of activities of albanian UCK
He can give those figures here again...
But even if it is true, that's only because the expectations of the massacres were higher and because the Albanians were exposed as they drove out...
You closed the thread Egorka asked why
url]http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5722&highlight=Kosovo[/url]
You murmured something indistict and then deleted it
And now you start to troll about Joseph Goebbels. Very smart.
I didn't close his thread; But I concur with the other mods that he was just flaming on a nationalist bent using one-sided and biased information...
And if I'm the "Goebbels" here, then ask Egorka, Chevan, Sneakskie, and that twit Jasa, why I defended the right of Ukrainians to mourn their dead and be free of Russian intransigence. And was nearly banned for it!:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3884
At least I'm consistent! You nationalist, white-supremacist clown!
It's about basic right and wrong; not about who's a Slav-brother, Muslim, Irish-Catholic, Jewish, or from a NATO country!
Oh, yeah. I guess the entire country side was depopulated by Albanians in 1998 how?
You see it was depopulated when the Americans started their air attacks. probably you don't guess but it is not safe to be in a comparatively small area bombed by a significant part of the NATO air forces
Um, the Serbs are a minority, by a wide margin. They never comprised more than 10% of the region, which they still are today. BTW, over 6% of the Kosovo police service is Serb, which makes their represented numbers below the overall population, but not radically so...
Serbs were the absolute majotity at the beginng of the XX century, they were turned into minorinity during and after WWII.
I called Milosevic a fascist, because he was one. I said nothing about his party, which finally dumped him after successive defeats for corruption. He used the mechanisms of state control to destroy all opposition, including drafting anti-war Serb college students into the Army...
Corruption and struggling against opposition is charcteristic for nearly each state.
You see any state will start mobilization if it is faces the threat of foreign invasion. So don't troll
Who supported the Warlords and prevented the Bosnians from acquiring the Weapons from state arsenals, dismissing their army reserve units and disbanding all predominately Muslim or Catholic Croat Yugoslav Army units.... BTW, the Yugoslavian Army was an active participant in all the resulting Wars...
If Bosnians did not acquire anything from the Yugoslavian Army arsenal there would be no war. Serrbs would have just seized the whole Bosnia within a few days.
A complete load of crap! Regular units of the Yugoslav Army entered and also were used as advisers. They provided weapons to the Serb militias that had a clear advantage in armor, artillery, aircraft, and of overall firepower.
Nothing of the sort they were volonteers who came to fight for Bosnian Serbs just like Russians, Romainians, Greeks etc.
LMAFO! The Serb bastard leaders betrayed their own people in the sickeningly 19th century bloodfued goal of building a "Greater Serbia."[/QUOTE]
You see if they had acted like you want them to act there would be no Serbia at all, neither greater nor smaller.
Genocide was never the Serbian goal, ethnic cleansing was. In fact, the more hideous aspects of the Serbian gov't instances and polices of state terror have largely been hidden from the population. Obviously, most Serbs would not have supported rounding up people and gassing them...
But there were eyewitness testimonies of attacks, given freely by Albanian civilians with no KLA guns to their heads, while in the relative safety of Albania...
There were eyewitness testimonies of attacks of Albanian terrorists on Serbian civilians before the arrival of NATO forces and after it. The 90 % of Serbs fled Kosovo as a result of ethnic cleansing conducted by Albanians.
So you are right
"the more hideous aspects of the Albanian gov't instances and polices of state terror have largely been hidden."
But even if it is true, that's only because the expectations of the massacres were higher and because the Albanians were exposed as they drove out...
OK let's act out of somebody's expectations and assumptions.
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 03:03 PM
You see it was depopulated when the Americans started their air attacks. probably you don't guess but it is not safe to be in a comparatively small area bombed by a significant part of the NATO air forces
Bloody hell! The process began before that. Quite clearly, it intensified during the bombing, but largely at behest of a Serb extortion and "punishment" of the Kosovars. Essentially using their suffering to "punish" them, and NATO politically. A very cynical, sickening policy actually. But spare me the "they left because NATO was bombing them" trash. It's beyond silly..
Serbs were the absolute majotity at the beginng of the XX century, they were turned into minorinity during and after WWII.
Forty-years before the wars were fought you mean...
Well, then I guess Islamic lunatics can say the same thing about Israel now, then?
Corruption and struggling against opposition is charcteristic for nearly each state.
You see any state will start mobilization if it is faces the threat of foreign invasion. So don't troll
Milosovec was nothing more than a cynical gangster that began his career in the 1980s and rose to power based on his largely imaginary rantings of a conspiratorial Muslim and Catholic plot that didn't exist...
In short, he turned people into everything that they were supposed to fear. Ruthless killers..
If Bosnians did not acquire anything from the Yugoslavian Army arsenal there would be no war. Serrbs would have just seized the whole Bosnia within a few days.
There was no "war" until the Serbian pogroms started...
If the Bosnians had been properly armed, they would have destroyed the Serbian forces wholesale since they outnumbered them substantially!
Spare me the semantics, I know what went on. I was on the NATO side. :)
Nothing of the sort they were volonteers who came to fight for Bosnian Serbs just like Russians, Romainians, Greeks etc.
Or the Chinese "volunteers" in the Korean War...
You see if they had acted like you want them to act there would be no Serbia at all, neither greater nor smaller.
LMFAO! Again, the martyr complex. No one wanted anything in what was historically Serbia, it was the other way around...
Feel free how NATO, or anyone else, has occupied the Yugoslavian designated Serbian nation...
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 03:07 PM
There were eyewitness testimonies of attacks of Albanian terrorists on Serbian civilians before the arrival of NATO forces and after it. The 90 % of Serbs fled Kosovo as a result of ethnic cleansing conducted by Albanians.
And there were eyewitness testimonies of Serb security forces supporting militias in their attacks on Kosovar civilians. In retaliation or otherwise.
And NATO never directly supported the KLA, they were disarmed after the conflict and replaced with a legitimate police force designed to represent the community...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/interviews/victims.html
So you are right
"the more hideous aspects of the Albanian gov't instances and polices of state terror have largely been hidden."
Hidden from who?
OK let's act out of somebody's expectations and assumptions.
Sure!
I didn't close his thread; But I concur with the other mods that he was just flaming on a nationalist bent using one-sided and biased information...
That Albanian just expressed Albanian point of view. You advocates Albanians here and did not let an Albanian express his view just because it did not fit notions about Albanians as poor and innocent victims of Serbs. Besides Egorka gave accurate statistics that American air strikes killed more civilians that Serbs when fighting terrorists and drug dealers from UCK.
And if I'm the "Goebbels" here, then ask Egorka, Chevan, Sneakskie, and that twit Jasa, why I defended the right of Ukrainians to mourn their dead and be free of Russian intransigence. And was nearly banned for it!:
You defended? I haven't come across that extent of cretinism yet.
The mourning of dead is one of few things that can't be taken away or given. It is like the right of somebody to feel pain when he was cut with a knife. What you defended? And you dare to call it your desert?
What you defend is the the world order under which Ukrainains can only mourn their dead and die out. And if they try to change something then all the NATO air forces will be bombing Ukraine, quite probably with the air forces of the Russian federation, if its regime is not eradicated there.
And was nearly banned for it
No one was banned on the issue. Quite different situation would be if the discussion concerned the murders of jews during WWII.
At least I'm consistent! You nationalist, white-supremacist clown!
You are consistent in closing threads without reasons, organizing their mysterious dissapearance, don't let persons to express their views.
Apart from it you just make personal insults to provoke me. But clowns like you can hardly attain it.
It's about basic right and wrong; not about who's a Slav-brother, Muslim, Irish-Catholic, Jewish, or from a NATO country!
Basic right and wrong? Who are you to dictate what is right and wrong, what is good and what is bad for everyone? I just express my opinion, you claim that you speak on behalf universal truth. You are messiah or what?
It is the totalitarian principle of modern world order to impose one outlook, one right and wrong concept, one way, one economic and political system for everyone.
In the situation with the Balkans basic rights and wrongs for every local are dictated by American presidents and bureaucrats who mistake Slovakia for Slovenia and always fail to utter or stumble when they try to pronounce local Slavic geographical names correctly.
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;123512]And there were eyewitness testimonies of Serb security forces supporting militias in their attacks on Kosovar civilians. In retaliation or otherwise.
There were eyewitness testimonies of UCK terrorists attacking Serbian civilians before and afetr the arrival of the NATO troops.
And NATO never directly supported the KLA, they were disarmed after the conflict and replaced with a legitimate police force designed to represent the community...
It is rediculous. Albanian UCK fully cooperated with NATO. Where did they get weapon? They were allowed to smuggle it by NATO forces that were stationed along Albania-Serbian border preparing for invasion. "A legitimate police force " is made up of the same UCK members, without any Serbs. They were disarmed? Or perhaps there was the transfer of weapon from the UCK to th sae UCK under the new title "A legitimate police force ".
There are lots of footages where people with UCK emblems and uniformes present in the NATO bases in Albania before the invasion.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/interviews/victims.html
And what was criminal there.
It is the way of fighting with partisans. Do you realise that the US troops act the same way in Iraq. Considering the extent of he conflict Americans killed in hundreds of times more civilians in Iraq and continue killing them.
Albanian terrorists from so-called Kosovo Liberation Army sold captivated alive Serbs as donors of organs
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=21&nav_id=48671
Bloody hell! The process began before that. Quite clearly, it intensified during the bombing, but largely at behest of a Serb extortion and "punishment" of the Kosovars. Essentially using their suffering to "punish" them, and NATO politically. A very cynical, sickening policy actually. ..
The process became massive when the bombings started.
But spare me the "they left because NATO was bombing them" trash.
You mean the civilan population should feel well and safe when they are bombed by all the NATO air forces located in Europe and part of them located in the US and don't try to flee that area? You imply that those bombings were rediculous trifles like some rain.
Serb extortion and "punishment" of the Kosovars
It is your fantasies. You invented it on the spot. You have no proofs for that
Milosovec was nothing more than a cynical gangster that began his career in the 1980s and rose to power based on his largely imaginary rantings of a conspiratorial Muslim and Catholic plot that didn't exist...
In short, he turned people into everything that they were supposed to fear. Ruthless killers..
He was a mere bureaucrat, he could not turn anyone. No one will believe you that ordinary Serbs and Serbian officials would just watch how Serbian population was purged by Muslims and let Miloshevich stayed in power doing nothing then.
There was no "war" until the Serbian pogroms started...
Pogroms were of mutual character.
If the Bosnians had been properly armed, they would have destroyed the Serbian forces wholesale since they outnumbered them substantially!
But they were armed and it demolishes your argument that they did not get anything after the collapse of the old Yugoslavian Army
Spare me the semantics, I know what went on. I was on the NATO side. :)
So you are related to unpanished killings of the civilians by NATO air raids. It is you who are the war criminal. You should be imprisoned or executed.
The US does not recognise the jurisdiction of International courts on the war crime that Americans set up for other nations. Cause the American "brave" military killers of defenseless civilians who teach others about "basic right and wrong" are the main war criminals who feel safe and never suffer from pangs of remorse.
Or the Chinese "volunteers" in the Korean War...
You mean Chinese volonteers went to Korean war paying for their travel expenses on their own and faced the prospects to be arrested upon returning to China as the members of foreign armed units.
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 09:35 PM
That Albanian just expressed Albanian point of view. You advocates Albanians here and did not let an Albanian express his view just because it did not fit notions about Albanians as poor and innocent victims of Serbs. Besides Egorka gave accurate statistics that American air strikes killed more civilians that Serbs when fighting terrorists and drug dealers from UCK.
The Albanian "point of view" was most of the population...
And "American" air strikes killed far fewer than then the village massacres. Funny how you've previously said the number was roughly equal, and now the NATO air strikes exceed the numbers murdered by Serb forces...
You defended? I haven't come across that extent of cretinism yet.
The mourning of dead is one of few things that can't be taken away or given. It is like the right of somebody to feel pain when he was cut with a knife. What you defended? And you dare to call it your desert?
I doubt you feel any pain at all...
What you defend is the the world order under which Ukrainains can only mourn their dead and die out. And if they try to change something then all the NATO air forces will be bombing Ukraine, quite probably with the air forces of the Russian federation, if its regime is not eradicated there.
LOL Are you really this ignorant, or are you just a 'false-flag' troll?
No one was banned on the issue. Quite different situation would be if the discussion concerned the murders of jews during WWII.
Um, no one was banned on that discussion in the thread also, genius...
You are consistent in closing threads without reasons, organizing their mysterious dissapearance, don't let persons to express their views.
Please show each thread I've closed...
Apart from it you just make personal insults to provoke me. But clowns like you can hardly attain it.
:(
Basic right and wrong? Who are you to dictate what is right and wrong, what is good and what is bad for everyone? I just express my opinion, you claim that you speak on behalf universal truth. You are messiah or what?
I am a messiah actually!
It is the totalitarian principle of modern world order to impose one outlook, one right and wrong concept, one way, one economic and political system for everyone.
In the situation with the Balkans basic rights and wrongs for every local are dictated by American presidents and bureaucrats who mistake Slovakia for Slovenia and always fail to utter or stumble when they try to pronounce local Slavic geographical names correctly.
Sorry, we didn't mean to interfere with the Slavic tribal, blood feud murder-festival. But since NATO has made so much money from the heroin the KLA provided us, we couldn't resist!
:)
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE]
There were eyewitness testimonies of UCK terrorists attacking Serbian civilians before and afetr the arrival of the NATO troops.
And the Serbian Army and police were doing what?
It is rediculous. Albanian UCK fully cooperated with NATO. Where did they get weapon? They were allowed to smuggle it by NATO forces that were stationed along Albania-Serbian border preparing for invasion. "A legitimate police force " is made up of the same UCK members, without any Serbs. They were disarmed? Or perhaps there was the transfer of weapon from the UCK to th sae UCK under the new title "A legitimate police force ".
Um, the KLA already had most of their weapons, which consisted mostly of Yugoslav sourced small arms.
And the "UCK" police force has "6%" Serbs in its ranks. Feel free to actually prove your idiotic statements with some actual proof for once. Or will Eroka provide a link at a later date?
There are lots of footages where people with UCK emblems and uniformes present in the NATO bases in Albania before the invasion.
Feel free to provide such a footages...
And what was criminal there.
It is the way of fighting with partisans. Do you realise that the US troops act the same way in Iraq. Considering the extent of he conflict Americans killed in hundreds of times more civilians in Iraq and continue killing them.
Um, so you admit that Serbs were invading a foreign country? Good! We've made progress. Do American troops "act the same way" in Iraq? Doubtful. There are some nasty instances of US troops and their commanders disgracing their uniform. But not nearly the the comparative scale as most of the Iraq dead (600,000+) are actually mostly due to the low level civil war of Iraqis. US troops have actually faced military justice for excesses in Iraq, and despite some of the appalling behaviors, there have been US troops tried for human rights abuses by their own..
Nickdfresh
04-29-2008, 09:57 PM
The process became massive when the bombings started.
Out of Serb vengeance...
Nice "human shield" argument...
You mean the civilan population should feel well and safe when they are bombed by all the NATO air forces located in Europe and part of them located in the US and don't try to flee that area? You imply that those bombings were rediculous trifles like some rain.
Um, what? The "US" (NATO actually) forces targeted mostly paramilitary units. Civilians were unfortunate victims in all this...
But then, why were they on major roads to begin with?
It is your fantasies. You invented it on the spot. You have no proofs for that
LMFAO!! Irony alert. You've yet to "proof" ONE statement you've made here, strawboy...
He was a mere bureaucrat, he could not turn anyone. No one will believe you that ordinary Serbs and Serbian officials would just watch how Serbian population was purged by Muslims and let Miloshevich stayed in power doing nothing then.
I guess he was just "following orders" then?
Pogroms were of mutual character.
So you admit the Serbian gov't forces murdered people then?
But they were armed and it demolishes your argument that they did not get anything after the collapse of the old Yugoslavian Army
Um, they were armed with old rifles against tanks and artillery?
Stop being an idiotic asshole with this "revisionist history" stuff! Anyone that was around then knows fully who had the heavy weapons against rifles during the siege of Sarajevo...
So you are related to unpanished killings of the civilians by NATO air raids. It is you who are the war criminal. You should be imprisoned or executed.
Feel free to come and get me...
The US does not recognise the jurisdiction of International courts on the war crime that Americans set up for other nations. Cause the American "brave" military killers of defenseless civilians who teach others about "basic right and wrong" are the main war criminals who feel safe and never suffer from pangs of remorse.
Another "Goebbels" argument. Tantamount that the Holocaust was okay because the US helped bomb Germany...
You mean Chinese volonteers went to Korean war paying for their travel expenses on their own and faced the prospects to be arrested upon returning to China as the members of foreign armed units.
LMFAO!! Good one! Name one Serb that was arrested by Yugoslav officials for being a mercenary....
Meanwhile, commanders of the Serb militias have been shielded from the Hague...
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;123534]Out of Serb vengeance...
Nice "human shield" argument...
When Israel's Army started to pepare the invasion to Lebonon, local Muslim
armed groups started to fire a dozen of their primitive rockets at the regions of Israel that was abut on Lebenon per day.
Guess what happened? Jews started to flee those areas en masse, it became
almost unpopulated and the fact was repeated many times in the world media. Jews fled from that region in spite of the fact, that half a dozen of primitive Arabian rockets, can't be compared to the destructve power of the hundreds of modern NATO aircrafts, missiles, and in spite of the fact that Jews had modern shelters where in the region.
Um, what? The "US" (NATO actually) forces targeted mostly paramilitary units. Civilians were unfortunate victims in all this...
Oh really? You mean a pilot can differ a paramilitary from non-paramilitary at an altitude of 6-7 thousand meters, reaching a sound barrier. The NATO forces bombed Belgrade and the rest of Serbia as well, simply at a lesser escale.
I guess he was just "following orders" then?
He was following the orders from the West when he betrayed Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo.
You should be thankful to him. But for him Americans would be washed with their blood during the land invasion like it happens in Iraq and most of Americans yell about the necessity to withdraw thier troops from the region.
So you admit the Serbian gov't forces murdered people then?
You don't understand the meaning of the word pogrom? It is a spontaneous violence on behalf of individuals. Pogroms as violence on the ethnic grounds happened in Australia, the US, Britain in the 1990s and later.
Um, they were armed with old rifles against tanks and artillery?
If Muslims had been armed with old rifles, the war in Bosnia would have been over within a few days. Most likely there would have been no war t all.
Stop being an idiotic asshole with this "revisionist history" stuff! Anyone that was around then knows fully who had the heavy weapons against rifles during the siege of Sarajevo...
One can't defend Sarajevo with old rifles. It sounds stupid for anyone. Don't paly fool.
Feel free to come and get me...
I wil have to ask Albanian slave traders with donors of human organs to come and get you. It will be the most reliable way.
Another "Goebbels" argument. Tantamount that the Holocaust was okay because the US helped bomb Germany...
Don't start to troll on Holocaust. The USSR organized its own Holocausts of non-jews in the 1930s and 1940s but it did not prevent the US to become the Soviet ally.
LMFAO!! Good one! Name one Serb that was arrested by Yugoslav officials for being a mercenary....
The Yugoslav officials arrested Miloshovich and other senior officials, and you want make somebody doubt that they arrested ordinary Serbian fighters
Meanwhile, commanders of the Serb militias have been shielded from the Hague...
Commanders of the Serb militias in Bosnia are shielded by local Serbian population, otherwise they would have been arrested a decade ago.
It's all a bit esoteric for those of us whose only interest in the Balkans is chevapccichi and spit roasts, while in the Ukraine it's limited to that spunky blonde prime minister sheila with the braided hair.
The "Ukrainain" prime-minister is a semi-jew, semi Russian.
Tymoshenko is the daughter of Ludmila Nikolaevna Telegina and Vladimir Abramovich Grigean, an Armenian jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko
http://i32.tinypic.com/168yj6b.jpg
The number of Ukrainians in the Ukrainain parliament is less than 38%
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;123531]The Albanian "point of view" was most of the population...
And "American" air strikes killed far fewer than then the village massacres. Funny how you've previously said the number was roughly equal, and now the NATO air strikes exceed the numbers murdered by Serb forces...
What village massacres? Call at least one village where Serbs massacred its civilian Albanian population in Kosovo?
I said that the figure of both civilian and militant Albanian losses was roughly equal to the number of civilians killed by Ameican air raids. If we take only Albanian civilian casualties for the years of conflict they will be lesser than the civilian losses during the NATO air raids.
LOL Are you really this ignorant, or are you just a 'false-flag' troll?
The false flag trolliong and ignorance are the domains of American foreign policy. I have never worked for American government or armed forces so such characteristics can be attributed only to you.
Um, no one was banned on that discussion in the thread also, genius...
Of course anyone can deny the fact of holodomor but no one can call in question the fact of Holocaust without being banned. It is very consistent.
Sorry, we didn't mean to interfere with the Slavic tribal, blood feud murder-festival. But since NATO has made so much money from the heroin the KLA provided us, we couldn't resist!
:)[
If you are not shared money from the trade of heroin related to KLA, it is because you did not hold the necessary post. There have been reports that drug Albanian maphia in the EU related to UCK bribed policemen, local state officials and even the MPs of the EU parliament.
By the way, I would like to express deep thanks to the US governments and troops that demolished Taliban regime in Afganistan causing the enormous leap in heroin production and for the fact that "American fighters for freedoms of the local population" turn a blind eye to it.
Much more people in Ukraine, Russia as well as in the EU can enjoy heroin now.
Rising Sun*
04-30-2008, 06:54 AM
The "Ukrainain" prime-minister is a semi-jew, semi Russian.
Tymoshenko is the daughter of Ludmila Nikolaevna Telegina and Vladimir Abramovich Grigean, an Armenian jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko
http://i32.tinypic.com/168yj6b.jpg
And your point is?
Rising Sun*
04-30-2008, 06:56 AM
The number of Ukrainians in the Ukrainain parliament is less than 38%
So, whose fault is that?
US troops have actually faced military justice for excesses in Iraq, and despite some of the appalling behaviors, there have been US troops tried for human rights abuses by their own..
Why should anyone believe that the US is more just and and unbiased than some other state when it goes about war crimes of its own troops. Quite posibbly that the US is much more biassed and injust.
So, whose fault is that?
First of all it is the fault of the world order. The Ukrainain government and system of power is the part of it. If you challenge the Ukrainain government and system of power you'll challenge the whole world order.
The elections is the fomal procedure that should simply legitimatise those who already have power and money and embedded in the system of power. There are the same faces from the times of Ukrainain SSR, any group outside the system of power will never win these elections due to being cut off from the financial and media resources or will simply be banned as extremist if it manages to gain popularity in spite of all obstacles. Those bans and pursecutions have taken place within last 17 years.
Rising Sun*
04-30-2008, 07:20 AM
First of all it is the fault of the world order. The Ukrainain government and system of power is the part of it. If you challenge the Ukrainain government and system of power you'll challenge the whole world order.
The elections is the fomal procedure that should simply legitimatise those who already have power and money and embedded in the system of power. There are the same faces from the times of Ukrainain SSR, any group outside the system of power will never win these elections due to being cut off from the financial and media resources or will simply be banned as extremist if it manages to gain popularity in spite of all obstacles. Those bans and pursecutions have taken place within last 17 years.
So, where does the Orange Revolution fit into this rigid picture of entrenched power?
[QUOTE=Kato;123525]
And the Serbian Army and police were doing what?
You mean the presence of the police in the US means that there are no crimes committed?
Um, the KLA already had most of their weapons, which consisted mostly of Yugoslav sourced small arms.
Yeah, they get it from the Serbs.
And the "UCK" police force has "6%" Serbs in its ranks. Feel free to actually prove your idiotic statements with some actual proof for once. Or will Eroka provide a link at a later date?
The fairy tales about "6%" Serbs in its ranks is made up by the Albanian drug dealers and terrorists forming the local goevernemnet.
Um, so you admit that Serbs were invading a foreign country? Good! We've made progress.
They did not invade a foreign country cause the Bosnian independence was recognised by other states only at the end of conflict. Besides they were Serbian volonteers from Yugoslavia and not the units of the regular Yugoslvian army of Miloshevich
So, where does the Orange Revolution fit into this rigid picture of entrenched power?
Revolution implies the destruction of the existing system of power and its values, depriving the system's functioneers from power, money and any means of influencing the situation. Nothing of it has happened in Ukraine.
"the Orange Revolution" was PR campaign conducted during the elections. There is nothing to choose between the leaders of "the Orange Revolution" and their opponents, both sides embedded into one system and benefit from it irrespectively of what side the Prime minister or President represents.
Rising Sun*
04-30-2008, 09:59 AM
Revolution implies the destruction of the existing system of power and its values, depriving the system's functioneers from power, money and any means of influencing the situation. Nothing of it has happened in Ukraine.
"the Orange Revolution" was PR campaign conducted during the elections. There is nothing to choose between the leaders of "the Orange Revolution" and their opponents, both sides embedded into one system and benefit from it irrespectively of what side the Prime minister or President represents.
Is there anything in the Ukrainian or world system of anything that meets your approval and isn't the consequence of a vast conspiracy against whatever it is that continually oppresses you and the white races and all that is true and good in the world?
Nickdfresh
04-30-2008, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE]
When Israel's Army started to pepare the invasion to Lebonon, local Muslim
armed groups started to fire a dozen of their primitive rockets at the regions of Israel that was abut on Lebenon per day.
Guess what happened? Jews started to flee those areas en masse, it became
almost unpopulated and the fact was repeated many times in the world media. Jews fled from that region in spite of the fact, that half a dozen of primitive Arabian rockets, can't be compared to the destructve power of the hundreds of modern NATO aircrafts, missiles, and in spite of the fact that Jews had modern shelters where in the region.
What does this have to do with anything?
Oh really? You mean a pilot can differ a paramilitary from non-paramilitary at an altitude of 6-7 thousand meters, reaching a sound barrier. The NATO forces bombed Belgrade and the rest of Serbia as well, simply at a lesser escale.
Their tough luck receiving the whirlwind...The targeting wasn't done by the pilots, it was done by intelligence and centralized commands...
He was following the orders from the West when he betrayed Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo.
You should be thankful to him. But for him Americans would be washed with their blood during the land invasion like it happens in Iraq and most of Americans yell about the necessity to withdraw thier troops from the region.
"Following orders?" More like negotiated agreement at Dayton...
Semantics...
And largely the result of the Croatian Army's offensive to retake the areas fought over in 1991. The Serbs no longer had default military supremacy as the Croatians and Bosnians became more sophisticated..
You don't understand the meaning of the word pogrom? It is a spontaneous violence on behalf of individuals. Pogroms as violence on the ethnic grounds happened in Australia, the US, Britain in the 1990s and later.
Again, your point being?
If Muslims had been armed with old rifles, the war in Bosnia would have been over within a few days. Most likely there would have been no war t all.
It pretty much was once the countryside had been depopulated, even with newer rifles, which are generally useless against tanks...
One can't defend Sarajevo with old rifles. It sounds stupid for anyone. Don't paly fool.
I'm not the "fool" here. When did I ever say anything about "old rifles." I said they lacked tanks, APCs, artillery, and they indeed had AKs and RPGs and some decrepit heavier weapons from various sources. But little more...
But they were at the mercy of bombardments and sniper fire during the siege...
I wil have to ask Albanian slave traders with donors of human organs to come and get you. It will be the most reliable way.
Oh, is that the excuse for murdering women and children and pushing out the population? Because some are criminals?
Don't start to troll on Holocaust. The USSR organized its own Holocausts of non-jews in the 1930s and 1940s but it did not prevent the US to become the Soviet ally.
Of course they did. And some Ukrainians contributed to Hitler's various holocausts as well...
The Yugoslav officials arrested Miloshovich and other senior officials, and you want make somebody doubt that they arrested ordinary Serbian fighters
I never "doubted" any of it.
Commanders of the Serb militias in Bosnia are shielded by local Serbian population, otherwise they would have been arrested a decade ago.
Of course they are.
But mentions of widescale Serb atrocities still is taboo in Yugoslavia...
Nickdfresh
04-30-2008, 10:31 AM
What village massacres? Call at least one village where Serbs massacred its civilian Albanian population in Kosovo?
I said that the figure of both civilian and militant Albanian losses was roughly equal to the number of civilians killed by Ameican air raids. If we take only Albanian civilian casualties for the years of conflict they will be lesser than the civilian losses during the NATO air raids.
I've already provided links.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/cleansing/
*edit- now I have! the above link goes over the violence from both sides extensively..
And Egorka's source is flawed and criticized by various academics as largely politically partisan criticism of the Clinton administration in the US, and had little to do with any in-depth study...
The false flag trolliong and ignorance are the domains of American foreign policy. I have never worked for American government or armed forces so such characteristics can be attributed only to you.
But are you Russian? Or Ukrainian?
And you should be far more appreciative of the US gov'ts efforts to supported an independent Ukraine.
BTW, I only served in the military as an enlisted man and NCO, if that is your definition of "working" for the gov't, then so be it...
Of course anyone can deny the fact of holodomor but no one can call in question the fact of Holocaust without being banned. It is very consistent.
I don't deny either, and have argued with those that do. Because I'm not a nationalist hypocrite like yourself...
If you are not shared money from the trade of heroin related to KLA, it is because you did not hold the necessary post. There have been reports that drug Albanian maphia in the EU related to UCK bribed policemen, local state officials and even the MPs of the EU parliament.
Another internet strawman argument. Again, the KLA was disarmed, and they procecute their criminals like any other state. Are you trying to tell me there's no organized crime in the Ukraine?
By the way, I would like to express deep thanks to the US governments and troops that demolished Taliban regime in Afganistan causing the enormous leap in heroin production and for the fact that "American fighters for freedoms of the local population" turn a blind eye to it.
You're welcome.
I'd like to thank the smack addicts across the world for funding them!
Much more people in Ukraine, Russia as well as in the EU can enjoy heroin now.
How much have you had today? :)
If you're going to condemn, that at least acknowledge US support, both open and covert, for Ukrainian nationalists. Or was Chevan right and are we just supporting another self-destructive lot ramped up on nationalism and long memories and bad blood?
You mean the presence of the police in the US means that there are no crimes committed?
Yeah, they get it from the Serbs.
The fairy tales about "6%" Serbs in its ranks is made up by the Albanian drug dealers and terrorists forming the local goevernemnet.
More strawman arguments...
Blah...
:roll:
Nickdfresh
04-30-2008, 10:42 AM
They did not invade a foreign country cause the Bosnian independence was recognised by other states only at the end of conflict. Besides they were Serbian volonteers from Yugoslavia and not the units of the regular Yugoslvian army of Miloshevich
Technicalities. It takes years for formal recognition. The Serbs were still fundamentally anti-democratic and were trying to usurp any political order which meant just representation according to demographics...
Nickdfresh
04-30-2008, 10:46 AM
Is there anything in the Ukrainian or world system of anything that meets your approval and isn't the consequence of a vast conspiracy against whatever it is that continually oppresses you and the white races and all that is true and good in the world?
:lol:
No. The disgruntled on the fringe will never be satisfied. I wonder if he's ready to attack Poland yet?
When Israel's Army started to pepare the invasion to Lebonon, local Muslim
armed groups started to fire a dozen of their primitive rockets at the regions of Israel that was abut on Lebenon per day.
Guess what happened? Jews started to flee those areas en masse, it became
almost unpopulated and the fact was repeated many times in the world media. Jews fled from that region in spite of the fact, that half a dozen of primitive Arabian rockets, can't be compared to the destructve power of the hundreds of modern NATO aircrafts, missiles, and in spite of the fact that Jews had modern shelters where in the region.
What does this have to do with anything?
I provided the example of analogical situation when the bombing caused the massive fleeing of local civilians from the targetted areas. Or you are going to claim that Israelis conducted some "retaliation operations" against local jews in the region of Israel that was within the reach of those home made rockets?
It is evident that NATO air raids where the main cause of the massive escape of civilians from Kosovo andlocal humanitarian disaster.
Their tough luck receiving the whirlwind...The targeting wasn't done by the pilots, it was done by intelligence and centralized commands...
I've watched a documantary about a revolt in Afgan prison of Taliban fighters
imprisoned there. That revolt was cracked down by Americans and Northern Alliance soldiers.
The American air forces with their super precise weapon missed the necessary targets several times and inflicted losses on Americans and their Afgan allies. There were more Americans killed by American pilots than by Taliban fighters
"Following orders?" More like negotiated agreement at Dayton...
He did what he was told to do at Dayton, forced Bosnian Serbs to surrender.
It pretty much was once the countryside had been depopulated, even with newer rifles, which are generally useless against tanks...
It is evident fact that Muslims were much better armed with some rifles otherwise they were never able to wage war or defend Sarajevo, they would have been wiped out within a week.
I'm not the "fool" here. When did I ever say anything about "old rifles." I said they lacked tanks, APCs, artillery, and they indeed had AKs and RPGs and some decrepit heavier weapons from various sources. But little more...
Oh so it turned out that they had not only old rifles.
Americans attacked Serbs when Serbs have almost no means to shoot down American planes. The same happened during the invasion in Iraq. The US seems to be not ashamed of using its military superiority that was much greater than in case of Serbian-muslim conflict in Bosnia
Oh, is that the excuse for murdering women and children and pushing out the population? Because some are criminals?
The thing is Albanians did't like to live in the etnical historic Serbian Kosovo as part of Serbia and didn't want to comply with Serbian laws. What is the problem if somebody returned to Albania. They have their own country. Any emigrant community should either comply with the laws of the original population or leave the state. It is approach shared in any state, including the US.
But mentions of widescale Serb atrocities still is taboo in Yugoslavia...[/QUOTE]
The film footages with the scenes of murders in Bosnian Srebrinica were broadcast on local state TV a few years.
Albanian Kosovo liberation Army fought not only against Serbs. It targetted any non-muslim population. The third largest community in Kosovo was Gypsies. After the arrival of the NATO troops Gypsies shared the destiny of te majority of Serbs were forced to flee or were killed by Albanians.
But are you Russian? Or Ukrainian?
And you should be far more appreciative of the US gov'ts efforts to supported an independent Ukraine.
What efforts? Do you know that the father of the modern US president came to Ukraine in 1990 and made a speech in the local parliament of the Ukrainain SSR against the separation of Ukraine from the USSR. It was the US with the help of local officials that deprive Ukraie of the third largest stocks of nuclear weapon in the world that had been created by the generations of people
Another internet strawman argument. Again, the KLA was disarmed, and they procecute their criminals like any other state. Are you trying to tell me there's no organized crime in the Ukraine?
The organized crime in Ukraine it is its venial ruling political and financial groups supported by foreigners among them is the US government
I'd like to thank the smack addicts across the world for funding them!
Of course they fund the Afgan government set up by American ruling class and thus cut down the American expenses.
How much have you had today? :)
If you're going to condemn, that at least acknowledge US support, both open and covert, for Ukrainian nationalists. Or was Chevan right and are we just supporting another self-destructive lot ramped up on nationalism and long memories and bad blood?
CIA tried to use Ukrainain nationalists for gaining intelligence information from within the USSR. It can hardly be called support, it was more like some trade.
By the way even these attempts failed due to the leakage from the American and British intelligence services.
Nickdfresh
04-30-2008, 11:49 AM
I provided the example of analogical situation when the bombing caused the massive fleeing of local civilians from the targetted areas. Or you are going to claim that Israelis conducted some "retaliation operations" against local jews in the region of Israel that was within the reach of those home made rockets?
Actually they carried out a bombing campaign with effected all constituencies in Lebanon and killed far more people that the Hezbollah rockets ever did. It was a foolishly conducted campaign that was largely self-defeating. And the actual reason that prompted the operation was the "kidnapping" of Israeli soldiers on the Lebanese side of the border during a convoy patrol, NOT because of rockets...
It is evident that NATO air raids where the main cause of the massive escape of civilians from Kosovo andlocal humanitarian disaster.
Horsehockey! Serb paramilitaries pointing guns at people and telling them to "get out" in retaliation for NATO attacks on mostly Serbian military targets in Kosovo cannot be blamed on NATO...
Nice properganda angle, but completely disingenuous crap!
Indeed, people were putting themselves more at risk of NATO air strikes by escaping on roads.
I've watched a documantary about a revolt in Afgan prison of Taliban fighters
imprisoned there. That revolt was cracked down by Americans and Northern Alliance soldiers.
The American air forces with their super precise weapon missed the necessary targets several times and inflicted losses on Americans and their Afgan allies. There were more Americans killed by American pilots than by Taliban fighters
How many worthless points are you going to make? Of course this happens! The incident in which you're referring, the US spec. ops and NA fighters were "danger close." The air strikes also saved most of their lives as they were cut off and temporarily outnumbered...
Again, you're making arguments that I never have and implying them as my point of view..
He did what he was told to do at Dayton, forced Bosnian Serbs to surrender.
They were treaty negotiations, and the Serbs were on the verge of defeat as they were never really a very good army to begin with and were now disadvantaged when facing a resurgent Croat Army and a more mobile Bosnian force that was able to increasingly find ways around sanctions (unfairly saddling them while the Serbs got whatever they wanted from Yugoslavia)...
It is evident fact that Muslims were much better armed with some rifles otherwise they were never able to wage war or defend Sarajevo, they would have been wiped out within a week.
Why do you keep repeating this idiocy and basic denial of facts. I've said that they had rifles and RPGs and infantry weapons such as "RPGs," but few heavy weapons until the very end. Even then they were outgunned, though they outnumbered the Serbs. Storming Sarajevo would have deprived the Serbs of their significant artillery and armor advantages as tanks are vulnerable in street fighting against superior infantry numbers. That is the reason for the Siege, to avoid bloody Stalingrad-like street fighting...
Oh so it turned out that they had not only old rifles.
I never said "OLD" rifles! Is your translator broken? Or the record?
Americans attacked Serbs when Serbs have almost no means to shoot down American planes. The same happened during the invasion in Iraq. The US seems to be not ashamed of using its military superiority that was much greater than in case of Serbian-muslim conflict in Bosnia
Yet they did shoot down a plane prior to the air strikes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkonji%C4%87_Grad_incident
The thing is Albanians did't like to live in the etnical historic Serbian Kosovo as part of Serbia and didn't want to comply with Serbian laws. What is the problem if somebody returned to Albania. They have their own country. Any emigrant community should either comply with the laws of the original population or leave the state. It is approach shared in any state, including the US.
The film footages with the scenes of murders in Bosnian Srebrinica were broadcast on local state TV a few years.
Because Milosevic began to crack down on ethnicities in the late 1980s and denied them basic human rights...
And the Srebrenica massacres prompted widespread shock when they were first shown, and threats from Serb nationalists, because people were largely blind to the war via state media in Yugoslavia...
Nickdfresh
04-30-2008, 11:54 AM
What efforts? Do you know that the father of the modern US president came to Ukraine in 1990 and made a speech in the local parliament of the Ukrainain SSR against the separation of Ukraine from the USSR. It was the US with the help of local officials that deprive Ukraie of the third largest stocks of nuclear weapon in the world that had been created by the generations of people
LOL. From super-Ukrainian nationalist that hates all other ethnic groups, it now doesn't matter...
The organized crime in Ukraine it is its venial ruling political and financial groups supported by foreigners among them is the US government
So it's always someone else's fault...:lol:
Of course they fund the Afgan government set up by American ruling class and thus cut down the American expenses.
Oh, good one! You know little about Afghanistan I see...
Secondly, this all has nothing to do with the Balkans and is again part of your general complaint and whining mentality...
This thread is getting close to being closed, since you're just recycling the same strawman arguments and myths...
Technicalities. It takes years for formal recognition. The Serbs were still fundamentally anti-democratic and were trying to usurp any political order which meant just representation according to demographics...
You know in the Russian language the word democracy resembles the sounding of the word combination that can be translated as shitocracy -
the power of shit. I believe that it perfectly desribes the sence of modern "democratic" system that is imposed on others by the US bureaucrats and their armed forces.
BTW, "by your logic," the Ukraine should have been made a de facto part of Russia by now since the minority of Russians obviously feel their rights will be violated under the orange state...
Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine feel that their rights will be violated under both the "orange" and "blue" governments that actually represent one and the same system.
The minority of Russians mainly voted for the Ukrainain independence in 1991 so your and others' wishes to paint ordinary Russians in Ukraine as the enemies of Ukrainain state do not correspond to the reality.
You mean Serbia doesn't "donate" to it's own population? There were Serbs in the US that "donated" to their families in Yugoslavia during the Wars. So what?
How can Serbia donate after its ecomomy was destroyed by American attacks and interevntion into its affairs. Your hipocracy has no limits.
LOL. From super-Ukrainian nationalist that hates all other ethnic groups, it now doesn't matter...
In the meantime the US democratic love towards other nations has killed tens of thousands civilians in open wars recently and planted political and economic bombs threatening the future existence of whole nations.
I suppose hundreds of millions of people won't survive from your American and democratic love.
Another internet strawman argument. Again, the KLA was disarmed, and they procecute their criminals like any other state. Are you trying to tell me there's no organized crime in the Ukraine?
Who will procecute? The commander of the KLA who is the president of Kosovo or the local officials, former KLA officers, who carried out these crimes and organized ethnic cleansing resulting of removing nearly all the non-muslim population including Gypsies from Kosovo?
Or perhaps NATO forces in Kosovo who turned a blind eye at the massive ousting of non-muslims from Kosovo
Firefly
04-30-2008, 03:15 PM
I cant quite work out if your deliberately trolling or really passionate here Kato. please convince me its the latter, if not I think you may be heading for a more permanent holiday from what is essentially a ww2 site.
Nickdfresh
05-01-2008, 02:52 AM
You know in the Russian language the word democracy resembles the sounding of the word combination that can be translated as shitocracy -
the power of shit. I believe that it perfectly desribes the sence of modern "democratic" system that is imposed on others by the US bureaucrats and their armed forces.
Somehow that fits. :D
http://efficientawesomeness.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/putin_cold_warrior.png
But the US did not "impose" anything in the Balkans. It was a NATO led operation as outrage permeated throughout Europe and the peacekeepers being shot at by Serb forces were international...
Nickdfresh
05-01-2008, 03:11 AM
Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine feel that their rights will be violated under both the "orange" and "blue" governments that actually represent one and the same system.
The minority of Russians mainly voted for the Ukrainain independence in 1991 so your and others' wishes to paint ordinary Russians in Ukraine as the enemies of Ukrainain state do not correspond to the reality.
How can Serbia donate after its ecomomy was destroyed by American attacks and interevntion into its affairs. Your hipocracy has no limits.
This thread isn't really about how much you hate your gov't. As RS* asked earlier, is there anything that would ever make you happy?
In the meantime the US democratic love towards other nations has killed tens of thousands civilians in open wars recently and planted political and economic bombs threatening the future existence of whole nations.
I suppose hundreds of millions of people won't survive from your American and democratic love.
Um, most of those wars preexisted, especially in the Balkans, and the the gov't set up there are regional and under the auspices of local political leaders --not the United States. And I've never supported the US Neoconservative goals of "spreading democracy" in places like Iraq. Nor am I a spokesman for a US gov't in which I've often criticized in my own little way. But your criticisms are sort of a litany of complaints that are often ignoring a whole host of other actors such as the UN, EU, NATO, and local political organs. In no way did the US act unilaterally in the Balkans.
But hardly will "hundreds of millions" die as a result. The US has probably saved "hundreds of millions" with some of its more inspired, farsighted projects like the "Marshall Plan" or Berlin Airlift....
Who will procecute? The commander of the KLA who is the president of Kosovo or the local officials, former KLA officers, who carried out these crimes and organized ethnic cleansing resulting of removing nearly all the non-muslim population including Gypsies from Kosovo?
Or perhaps NATO forces in Kosovo who turned a blind eye at the massive ousting of non-muslims from Kosovo
Again, more silly exaggerated comments. "Nearly all the non-muslim population" has been removed? Um, the non-Muslim population is still roughly about what it was prior to 1999 (roughly 10%). Some have left, but hardly a large exodus, and many left only recently after Kosovo claimed independence...
Who will procecute? The commander of the KLA who is the president of Kosovo or the local officials, former KLA officers, who carried out these crimes and organized ethnic cleansing resulting of removing nearly all the non-muslim population including Gypsies from Kosovo?
Why do you keep persisting in this lie? The non-Muslim population currently exists in Kosovo and only small percentages have left and they certainly have not been driven out on any large scale program of "ethnic cleansing," though some have left mostly out of fear of Kosovar autonomy..
What are the specific "crimes" committed? And one might as well ask if senior members of the Yugoslav Army, intelligence services, and paramilitaries will also be prosecuted for massacres conducted against civilians or for the killing of civilians indiscriminately during attacks on Kosovar villages? As far as I know, none have yet nor is anyone seeking it. I believe the overall Serb general in command of the Kosovo campaign is now the IJA chief of staff...
Or perhaps NATO forces in Kosovo who turned a blind eye at the massive ousting of non-muslims from Kosovo
It's hard to see what basically doesn't exist...
Rising Sun*
05-01-2008, 04:19 AM
Pogroms as violence on the ethnic grounds happened in Australia, the US, Britain in the 1990s and later.
I missed our pogrom. Or should it be pogroms? If I missed one, I suppose I could miss more.
Exactly when and where did we have a pogrom, who were the victims, and what happened?
And Egorka's source is flawed and criticized by various academics as largely politically partisan criticism of the Clinton administration in the US, and had little to do with any in-depth study...
Obvoiusly your "various academics" are the same who invented lies about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Clinton lied while testifying under oath about Monika's blow job. It was a criminal offence to lie under oath but he did not have any consequences for him.
And such patented liars, pieces of **** from the American government and society decide what is right or wrong for others, impose their shitocratic rules and values on others, invade foreign states under entirely slanderous excuses.
The main cause of massive fleeing of civilians was the NATO bombing campaign and the threat of NATO's land invasion in Kosovo.
It is natural that civilians wanted to leave the heavily bombed area that could have become the battle field between the land NATO forces and Serbian Army.
That was the real reason. Massive fleeing of civilians would happen in any other region of the world if it were bombed and threatened land invasion by the NATO or anyone else.
Why do you keep persisting in this lie? The non-Muslim population currently exists in Kosovo and only small percentages have left and they certainly have not been driven out on any large scale program of "ethnic cleansing," though some have left mostly out of fear of Kosovar autonomy..
It's hard to see what basically doesn't exist...
You are a liar just like Bush and Clinton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Aftermath
Within three weeks, over 500,000 Albanian refugees had returned home. By November 1999, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 808,913 out of 848,100 had returned.
However, an estimated 200,000 Serbs fled Kosovo.[53] Gypsies were also driven out after being harassed by Albanians. Since June 12, 1999, as many as 1,000 Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing as a result of KLA elements and possibly criminal gangs or vengeful individuals.[54][35] The Yugoslav Red Cross had also registered 247,391 mostly Serbian refugees by November. The new exodus was a severe embarrassment to NATO, which had established a peacekeeping force of 45,000 under the auspices of the United Nations Mission In Kosovo (UNMIK).
Some accounts about violent ousting Serns from Kosovo
http://antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=2257
http://www.agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19991224livenasy.php
An article on the topic "Where are Kosovo killing fields?"
http://www.pereplet.ru/text/genocide.html
Somehow that fits. :D
http://efficientawesomeness.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/putin_cold_warrior.png
Bush always calls Putin " my friend". What do you want to say? That Putin is a worse democrat than Bush who with his "academics and experts" falsified reports about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or Clinton who lied under oath and whose administration falsified reports about genocide of Albanians in Kosovo?
I missed our pogrom. Or should it be pogroms? If I missed one, I suppose I could miss more.
Exactly when and where did we have a pogrom, who were the victims, and what happened?
The inter-ethnic clashes of Cronulla Beach between Whites and Arabs in December 2005
Chevan
05-04-2008, 01:04 AM
Mr Kato..
Calm down please ...
You are a liar just like Bush and Clinton
Try to be polite for the other here.
I do understand your point and support it to some extend.
BTW have you heard about last scandal with Karla del Ponte?
She told that she knew how the Kosovs ba..rds carved the Serbs hostages into the "spare parts" , and then sold their organs to the West for money?
And she did nothing to judge the Muslim war criminals after that...
But the US did not "impose" anything in the Balkans. It was a NATO led operation as outrage permeated throughout Europe and the peacekeepers being shot at by Serb forces were international...
The main and often only force that conducted bombings and was to be participated in possible land invasions (if air raids had failed to achieve their goals ) was the US forces. It is clear that European NATO states played an auxiliary role. They would not have acted against Serbs without the US urging.
Rising Sun*
05-04-2008, 08:58 AM
The inter-ethnic clashes of Cronulla Beach between Whites and Arabs in December 2005
That was nothing like a pogrom.
By stating at #22 that 'You don't understand the meaning of the word pogrom? It is a spontaneous violence on behalf of individuals.' you show that you're the one who doesn't understand the meaning of pogrom, at least as it's used in English, i.e.
'an organized massacre of helpless people; specifically : such a massacre of Jews' http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pogrom
or
'An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.' http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pogrom
32Bravo
05-04-2008, 12:02 PM
You are a liar just like Bush and Clinton
Nick might be many things - misinformed, ignorant, biased, American even - but a liar?... I think not!
It's rather good (methinks) to disagree, but watch out for the old blood-pressure, old chap. The only thing you will achieve by ranting, is to alienate those that might be sympathetic to, and otherwise listen to, your argument - only R.S. is allowed to do that! :D :D
Chevan
05-04-2008, 02:47 PM
Nick might be many things - misinformed, ignorant, biased, American even - but a liar?... I think not!
And yet he might be a naive little boy, who did not notice an obvious things;)
But the US did not "impose" anything in the Balkans. It was a NATO led operation as outrage permeated throughout Europe and the peacekeepers being shot at by Serb forces were international...
Oh common Nick the whole NATO is just a puppet organisation of USA - we all know it :)
Especially me and mr Kato who studied the Soviet school cource very well in its time:)
The NATO is fully subordinated to Washington, and no one operation will not start without sanction from Pentagon.
I don't actually know ( and Europe don't know ) why we need the one more danger muslin state in Balkans - Kosovo.
However the Americans persist on it...
One more military base for NATO in Kosovo look like the "good" reason:shock:
32Bravo
05-05-2008, 06:05 AM
And yet he might be a naive little boy, who did not notice an obvious things;)
I thought we had already established that? ;)
Chevan
05-05-2008, 08:20 AM
If you're going to condemn, that at least acknowledge US support, both open and covert, for Ukrainian nationalists. Or was Chevan right and are we just supporting another self-destructive lot ramped up on nationalism and long memories and bad blood?
Not just in Ukraine Nick..
The USA officially supports all sorts of nationalist since Poland - till the Baltick states.
This is a very simple political stategy - the Americans will support separatism EVERYWHERE exept in the American continent:)
Their "help" has come to the situation when the Waffen SS openly march in Estonia:shock:
ANd the anti-russian propoganda began to transform into the amti-semitic one:)
This situation are tupical for Western Ukraine ( in fact the "Orange populists" are sponsored and PRed but State Department and CIA particulary).
So mr Kato is a bit incorrect here too;)
The CIA not just used the Ukrainians Nationalists but growed them up with success..
But this success could turn agains America:) You could be convinced of it in example of mr Kato:)
This is very danger game indeed. You might see how the situation can turn out of control.
The additional problem is that USA is too far from Europe- but we will live here and feel any troubles on our own skin.
The characher of cynical American POLICY have been clearly demonstatated in Georgia recently.
The domestic dictator, installed and supported by CIA pull the Georgia into the new bloody conflict with Abhazia.
The most funny is the to the contast of Servbia , where the USA support the separatists, in Georgia- they supports the tupical imperialists ( who want all of neighbourd lands).
Chevan
05-05-2008, 08:21 AM
I thought we had already established that? ;)
What had we established exactly my friend?:)
[QUOTE=Chevan;123984]Not just in Ukraine Nick..
The USA officially supports all sorts of nationalist since Poland - till the Baltick states.
This is a very simple political stategy - the Americans will support separatism EVERYWHERE exept in the American continent:)
It supports both separatism in one states and the unity or integrity of other states in accordance to its interests. I have already mentioned the fact that
elder Bush urged Ukraine to remain within the USSR in his speech in the parliament of Soviet Ukraine in Kiev in 1990. Of course this fact is not mentioned int the Russian Mass Media. Actually Americans did not want and did not support the disintegration of the USSR. The US refused to recognize Ukrainian sovereignty till 1993, others countries did it in 1991.
ANd the anti-russian propoganda began to transform into the amti-semitic one:)
Anti-Russian sentiments in Ukraine are aroused by the Russian Mass Medias controlled by the Kremlin. There are no needs in anti-Russian propaganda made in Ukraine, as a Ukrainian can just watch Russian news or program about Ukraine related issues broadcasting in the Russian Federation and he will be immediately overwhelmed with anti-Russian sentiments and disgust. There are no better "anti-russian propoganda' than the one made by the Russian Medias themselves.
You mean many semetic oligarchs behind the orange and blue parties in Ukraine and the main ally of jews the US governements with CIA started anti-semitic propaganda. Very clever.
This situation are tupical for Western Ukraine ( in fact the "Orange populists" are sponsored and PRed but State Department and CIA particulary).
So mr Kato is a bit incorrect here too;)
I repeat Orange populists had much more than enough financial resources to fund
such a trifle like the PR campaign called "orange revolution". The statement that they could not finance it without american involvement does not hold any water.
According to Forbes Ukrainain oligarchs are the richest in Europe after the Russian ones.
The CIA not just used the Ukrainians Nationalists but growed them up with success..
It is the coverage in Russian Medias that paints the orange populists as Ukrainain nationalists. But it is simply absurd. Who are nationalists? The party of semi-jew semi-Russian Timoshenko that has been admitted to the Socialistic International. Or the Party of Yushchenko that is the member of Pan-Europen social-democratic People's Party that had the largest fraction in the parliament of the EU.
Moscow plays up American propagada on its side to keep the existing world order.
The characher of cynical American POLICY have been clearly demonstatated in Georgia recently.
The domestic dictator, installed and supported by CIA pull the Georgia into the new bloody conflict with Abhazia
The most funny is the to the contast of Servbia , where the USA support the separatists, in Georgia- they supports the tupical imperialists ( who want all of neighbourd lands).
Imerialsits? Abhasia is the part of Georgia as the rest of the world and even the Russian Federation have never recognised Abhasia as a sovereign state.
If Washington had really supported Georgia Abhazia would have been returned to Georgia long ago. The US and the RF use the Georgian-Abhazian issue for their PR policy. It is the only case where Moscow can show its "power" to support the PR image of of "world superpower" in the eyes of its citizens. The US realises the Moscow's PR needs and played them up.
I don't see any grounds for ordinary Slavs in the RF support Abhazia. Before the conflict there were 600000 inhabitants, 300000 of them were Georgians, 120000 Russians, Ukrainains, 120000- 140000 Abhazians. Today Georgians and Russians are refuges who can't return to their homes in Abhazia. The regular Russain troops waged war on behalf of Abhazians and Russians are the refuges just like local Georgians when Abhazia has the regime advocated by Moscow.
That was nothing like a pogrom.
By stating at #22 that 'You don't understand the meaning of the word pogrom? It is a spontaneous violence on behalf of individuals.' you show that you're the one who doesn't understand the meaning of pogrom, at least as it's used in English, i.e.
'an organized massacre of helpless people; specifically : such a massacre of Jews' http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pogrom
or
'An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.' http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pogrom
Pogrom is a Slavic word. It means some spontaneous inter-ethnic riots often with the devastation of private property. Obviously jews attached some additional meaning to it in English to emphasize their "sufferings" caused by local Slavs in Slavic countries.
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:06 PM
Obvoiusly your "various academics" are the same who invented lies about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Um, firstly, what's with the bold text?
It wasn't "academics" that "lied." It's was politicians that didn't care whether we had any real evidence, they just assumed...
Clinton lied while testifying under oath about Monika's blow job. It was a criminal offence to lie under oath but he did not have any consequences for him.
Actually, he didn't. The legal definition of sex given by Ken Starr prior to testimony was a strict one of vaginal sexual intercourse, and not oral. So, technically in legalistic terms, he didn't "lie."
But of course --he did in spirit...
But your point is again?
Clinton "lied" about sexual relations and Milosevic exploiting nationalism to enable the murder of thousands in comparable how?
How many girls did Milosevic screw in his tenure? Was his private life opened up in a $40-million witch-hunt that turned out to have nothing to do with its original mandate?
How many Bosnian women were raped in the Serb onslaught of ethnic cleansing supported my the Milosevic regime? Is this really a compare and contrast of despotism, morality, and corruption?
And such patented liars, pieces of **** from the American government and society decide what is right or wrong for others, impose their shitocratic rules and values on others, invade foreign states under entirely slanderous excuses.
Oh, this is just priceless! :D
What I've missed!
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:18 PM
The main cause of massive fleeing of civilians was the NATO bombing campaign and the threat of NATO's land invasion in Kosovo.
..
Thanks for repeating the lie again. But NATO wasn't bombing villages. They were hitting Serb ground forces mostly...
Good luck with the propaganda angle though. :)
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:24 PM
You are a liar just like Bush and Clinton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Aftermath
Within three weeks, over 500,000 Albanian refugees had returned home. By November 1999, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 808,913 out of 848,100 had returned.
However, an estimated 200,000 Serbs fled Kosovo.[53] Gypsies were also driven out after being harassed by Albanians. Since June 12, 1999, as many as 1,000 Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing as a result of KLA elements and possibly criminal gangs or vengeful individuals.[54][35] The Yugoslav Red Cross had also registered 247,391 mostly Serbian refugees by November. The new exodus was a severe embarrassment to NATO, which had established a peacekeeping force of 45,000 under the auspices of the United Nations Mission In Kosovo (UNMIK).
Some accounts about violent ousting Serns from Kosovo
http://antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=2257
Nice selective reading:
the same source
War crimes
Before the end of the bombing, Yugoslav President Slobodan Milošević, along with Milan Milutinović, Nikola Šainović, Dragoljub Ojdanić and Vlajko Stojiljković were charged by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) with crimes against humanity including murder, forcible transfer, deportation and "persecution on political, racial or religious grounds".
Further indictments were leveled in October 2003 against former armed forces chief of staff Nebojša Pavković, former army corps commander Vladimir Lazarević, former police official Vlastimir Đorđević and the current head of Serbia's public security, Sreten Lukić. All were indicted for crimes against humanity and violations of the laws or customs of war.
The ICTY also leveled indictments against KLA members Fatmir Limaj, Haradin Bala, Isak Musliu and Agim Murtezi, indicted for crimes against humanity. They were arrested on February 17–18, 2003. Charges were soon dropped against Agim Murtezi as a case of mistaken identity, whereas Fatmir Limaj was acquitted of all charges on 30 November 2005 and released. The charges were in relation to the prison camp run by the defendants at Lapusnik between May and July 1998.
War crimes prosecutions have also been carried out in Yugoslavia. Yugoslav soldier Ivan Nikolić was found guilty in 2002 of war crimes in the deaths of two civilians in Kosovo. A significant number of Yugoslav soldiers were tried by Yugoslav military tribunals during the war.
On March 2005, a U.N. tribunal indicted Kosovo Prime Minister Ramush Haradinaj for war crimes against the Serbs, on March 8 he tendered his resignation. Haradinaj, an ethnic Albanian, was a former commander who led units of the Kosovo Liberation Army and was appointed Prime Minister after winning an election of 72 votes to three in the Kosovo's Parliament in December 2004.
The Serbian government and a number of international pressure groups claimed that NATO had carried out war crimes during the conflict, particularly regarding the bombing of alleged dual-use facilities such as the Serbian TV headquarters in Belgrade. The ICTY conducted an inquiry into these charges.[58] The tribunal has proclaimed that it has no mandate to press charges against NATO for war crimes against civilian population.
In 2008, Carla Del Ponte published a book in which she collected extensive evidence that right after the end of the war in 1999, Kosovo Albanians were smuggling organs of hundreds of Serbians from the province to Albania.[59] But the ICTY has found no "substantial element" to support Del Ponte's charges.[60]
I never said the KLA nor Kosovars were blameless nor that they didn't have corrupt or criminal elements. But their atrocities were paled by the mass exodus of Kosovars under the massacres by Serb forces...
KLA members were also indicted. And the Serb civilians and refugees are regrettable, but also inevitable in a state of lawless terror...
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:29 PM
An article on the topic "Where are Kosovo killing fields?"
http://www.pereplet.ru/text/genocide.html
Oh, a Russian site! Firstly, don't you hate Russians?
I bet, without reading, that these same sites deny the Ukrainian holomodor?
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:32 PM
Bush always calls Putin " my friend". What do you want to say? That Putin is a worse democrat than Bush who with his "academics and experts" falsified reports about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or Clinton who lied under oath and whose administration falsified reports about genocide of Albanians in Kosovo?
Because Bush is an asshole, and so is Putin. They both have anti-democratic tendancies...
And neither really listens to "academics and experts."
And please tell me exactly who "falsified reports" about WMDs in Iraq!
And again, Clinton didn't "lie under oath" --technically.
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:35 PM
The main and often only force that conducted bombings and was to be participated in possible land invasions (if air raids had failed to achieve their goals ) was the US forces. It is clear that European NATO states played an auxiliary role. They would not have acted against Serbs without the US urging.
Of course. I agree. But it was NATO countries under the UN whose forces were being murdered and/or embarrassed by the Serb militias. Notably Canada and the Netherlands. It was also the embarrassment of Europe standing by while another ethnic holocaust was taking place that ultimately prompted the action.
The Serb forces ultimately brought this on themselves by openly attacking UN forces, then abducting NATO peacekeepers and holding them hostage. What would you think would happen?
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:40 PM
And yet he might be a naive little boy, who did not notice an obvious things;)
Touche'. Watch out for hypocrisies...
Oh common Nick the whole NATO is just a puppet organisation of USA - we all know it :)
A pretty cad generalization and simplistic notion...
If NATO is a "puppet," then why does the US not force European nations to pay the same percentage of their GNPs on defense that the US does? Why does it not use NATO troops in Iraq?
Especially me and mr Kato who studied the Soviet school cource very well in its time:)
The NATO is fully subordinated to Washington, and no one operation will not start without sanction from Pentagon.
Then again, why are French and German forces not fighting in Iraq? They're our "puppets!"
I don't actually know ( and Europe don't know ) why we need the one more danger muslin state in Balkans - Kosovo.
How is Kosovo a "dangerous" Muslim state?
However the Americans persist on it...
One more military base for NATO in Kosovo look like the "good" reason:shock:
Well, if it's a NATO base, then you've no reason to fear the "Muslims." Right?
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:45 PM
Nick might be many things - misinformed, ignorant, biased, American even - but a liar?... I think not!
...
Such kind words! I'm blushing!
BTW, in some quarters I am an American-hater, liberal! To think I am biased and American!
Nickdfresh
05-05-2008, 06:56 PM
Not just in Ukraine Nick..
The USA officially supports all sorts of nationalist since Poland - till the Baltick states.
Oh too think that countries would not want to live under the benevolence of Russian imperialism!
Ungrateful little pricks!
Damn Yankees!
This is a very simple political stategy - the Americans will support separatism EVERYWHERE exept in the American continent:)
Where would Americans support "separatism" on the American continent?
Their "help" has come to the situation when the Waffen SS openly march in Estonia:shock:
Yeah, because far-right nationalists never march in Moscow.. :rolleyes:
Fringe extremists should always define a nation... :evil:
ANd the anti-russian propoganda began to transform into the amti-semitic one:)
This situation are tupical for Western Ukraine ( in fact the "Orange populists" are sponsored and PRed but State Department and CIA particulary).
So mr Kato is a bit incorrect here too;)
They weren't 'sponsored' anymore than the SVR supported pro-Russian parties...
The CIA not just used the Ukrainians Nationalists but growed them up with success..
But this success could turn agains America:) You could be convinced of it in example of mr Kato:)
This is very danger game indeed. You might see how the situation can turn out of control.
The additional problem is that USA is too far from Europe- but we will live here and feel any troubles on our own skin.
I guess only Russian nationalists should rule the Ukraine then?
The characher of cynical American POLICY have been clearly demonstatated in Georgia recently.
The domestic dictator, installed and supported by CIA pull the Georgia into the new bloody conflict with Abhazia.
LOL He's a "dictator" now because he's no longer subservant to Russian dictates?
BTW, he was democratically elected in a free and fare election...
The most funny is the to the contast of Servbia , where the USA support the separatists, in Georgia- they supports the tupical imperialists ( who want all of neighbourd lands).
Wow. I guess everyone should just revolve around the dictates of Mother Russia and not those evil CIA puppets, eh?
Oh, a Russian site! Firstly, don't you hate Russians?
I bet, without reading, that these same sites deny the Ukrainian holomodor?
Why do you think that the PR policy of the federal government in Moscow is shared and supported by everyone in the Russian Federation?
Lots of Russians joined Ukrainian nationalists and fought against Bolsheviks vindicating the interests of the Ukrainian nation, most of Russians in Ukraine voted for its independence in 1991.
Chevan
05-06-2008, 01:00 AM
Oh too think that countries would not want to live under the benevolence of Russian imperialism!
Oh Nick, most of countries did not live under "Russian imperialism" since 1991.
Having the cheep russian gas ,till the 2004.
Ukraine since mid 1990-yy had the partnership with NATO.
And nobody in russia determine how to live them . They were fully independent.
Where would Americans support "separatism" on the American continent?
Local indians. You suppressd their national movenment very well
Yeah, because far-right nationalists never march in Moscow.. :rolleyes:
Fringe extremists should always define a nation... :evil:
Far-right nationalist march even in Washington. (http://www.nsm88.org/photos/washington_2008/washington_march_2008.html)
But neither in USA nor in Russian the Ultra-nationalist don't play the essential role.
To the contrast with Ukraine, Baltick states and ets.
They weren't 'sponsored' anymore than the SVR supported pro-Russian parties...
they were sponsorred MUCH MUCH more .
The whole world PR company had been started.
Don't compare the abilities of USA and Russia.
I guess only Russian nationalists should rule the Ukraine then?
Where have you seen the Russian nationalist in Ukraine.......?
LOL He's a "dictator" now because he's no longer subservant to Russian dictates?
No he is actual dictator due his methods of rulling and suppression of opposition.
BTW, he was democratically elected in a free and fare election...
Ha aha ha .
"Democratic elected" idiot with 95% of votes:)
Tell better this fary tell for Kato - he know taste with "Mass media democraty" :)
Even the Famouse Belorussian dictator Lukashenko had ONLY 70%:)
Wow. I guess everyone should just revolve around the dictates of Mother Russia and not those evil CIA puppets, eh?
Oh sorry Nick ... a bad Chevan..
Noway.
The everyone should revolve around Washington and CIA , including the Mother Russia:)
So better?
Nickdfresh
05-06-2008, 01:00 AM
Why do you think that the PR policy of the federal government in Moscow is shared and supported by everyone in the Russian Federation?
Lots of Russians joined Ukrainian nationalists and fought against Bolsheviks vindicating the interests of the Ukrainian nation, most of Russians in Ukraine voted for its independence in 1991.
Ahhhh...
Now we're getting into interesting territory...
I really don't know the answer to this question, but it is one that interests me....
At what point do they stop being Russians? Are they still "Russians" or are they Ukrainians of Russian ethnic stock?
Chevan
05-06-2008, 01:10 AM
Touche'. Watch out for hypocrisies...
A pretty cad generalization and simplistic notion...
Oh pissed Nick..i will watch it:)
If NATO is a "puppet," then why does the US not force European nations to pay the same percentage of their GNPs on defense that the US does? Why does it not use NATO troops in Iraq?
Becouse this is puppet, but not the inner american organisation right?
Then again, why are French and German forces not fighting in Iraq? They're our "puppets!"
Well may be becouse GErmany and France still have a PRIDE to ask - what to hell the they will do in Iraq?
At the same time the most of others supports this adventure UNDOUBTELY
How is Kosovo a "dangerous" Muslim state?
See a Kato posts above ..
The Narco traffic, the muslim extremists and ets...
Well, if it's a NATO base, then you've no reason to fear the "Muslims." Right?
Not muslims but the Muslim Extremists ( who in fact the most of the kosovars are)
And if you think that the american base is the guaranty...
Just wathc to Iraq now- this is most danger place for living today although there a lot of American troops.
Chevan
05-06-2008, 01:12 AM
Why do you think that the PR policy of the federal government in Moscow is shared and supported by everyone in the Russian Federation?
Lots of Russians joined Ukrainian nationalists and fought against Bolsheviks vindicating the interests of the Ukrainian nation, most of Russians in Ukraine voted for its independence in 1991.
Don't tell a fary tels.
there a lot of cases of suppression of Russians in Ukraine.Especially in Western Ukraine recently.
In Lviv t