The Soviet paradise.

[Panzerknacker]

The soviet paradise:

German Wartime Newsreel. Die Deutsche Wochenschau.

The German Army cameraman on the eastern front not only witnessed World War II's greatest land battles, but also was a first-hand observer of life in Russia after 20 years of Soviet rule. His films of conditions inside Stalin's state were skillfully arranged by Hitler's propagandists to present a bleak picture of the Soviet paradise. Its citizenry are represented as starving children, youthful gangs, cowed laborers and wretched peasants barely existing on dilapidated collective farms or in overcrowded city slums or even homeless on the barren steppes. A deserted university and desecrated crypts of an abandoned church form dismal monuments to knowledge and faith forsaken. Although scarcely impartial, this Nazi film offers us a unique picture of the Russian interior, compiled by the only cameramen ever unrestrained by Soviet censors.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=soxB7rBZ88Q

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz7K8PGky2k

[Egorka]

Thanks for the links. Looks interesting.
Pity I don'n understand the German voice.

Side note: What kind of kindergarden offensive it is!!! :) You know what I mean. ;)

[Firefly]

Of course it is also Nazi propaganda too, after all there was a war on!

[Egorka]

Of course it is also Nazi propaganda too, after all there was a war on!
Quite many people lived like that before the war too.

[Panzerknacker]

Thanks for the links. Looks interesting.
Pity I don'n understand the German voice.

The part began refering to 2 churches, one converted in vodka fabric and the other in an power station, people living underground. Pretty much self explained...

The part II is quite shocking specially that one with "eine kinder krankenhaus"...a childrens hospital.

Is propaganda, now the power to differenciante wich part is true and what is lie is upon every member.


Quite many people lived like that before the war too.


I believe this is the object of the nazi propagandist, to show the conditions before the german "liberation".

[Chevan]

A deserted university and desecrated crypts of an abandoned church form dismal monuments to knowledge and faith forsaken.
There is not surprised, keeping in mind the fact that Nazy usially catch all the professors, declared them as the Jews and publically executed them all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Lvov_professors
The fate of Ortodoxy survived priests was the simular in most cases.
BTW PZ it seems for me , you watch too much the Deutsche Wochenschau befor sleep:)

[larryparamedic]

I struggled with the German language, but a nice find regardless.
The Nazis were master propagandists no doubt about that.
I tend to put stronger faith in German combat photographers than media types, as their shots are raw and at-the-moment.
But like you said, you have to sift through the hype.

[Rising Sun*]

The soviet paradise:

Although scarcely impartial, this Nazi film offers us a unique picture of the Russian interior, compiled by the only cameramen ever unrestrained by Soviet censors.

Presumably the Nazi censors didn't restrain the Nazi film, or cut it to support their hostility to Russians as untermensch? :rolleyes:

Why no Nazi film of the glories of Russian architecture that existed then, and now?

How is this film different to the odious Nazi films presenting Jews as a sub-human species barely above rats?

A film showing equally bad conditions in America, or England or Australia, around the same time could have been made. Plenty of still photographs for it were made in America.


http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/8a01636u.jpg

http://www.shorpy.com/rural-mother-1936?size=_original


http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/images/migrant_mother_2.jpg



http://www.ibiblio.org/channel/shack.gif


And then there were events like this, which hardly make some Americans look more civilised than some Russians living in holes in the ground.

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/images/life/lynching.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/lm18.html&h=448&w=540&sz=81&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=Jl6_PA0GMNKltM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlynching%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

[Chevan]

Yes good point RS.

[larryparamedic]

Not to get off topic but I'm not sure what the fake wireless phone pic has to do with anything unless I missed the point, but the other of poor southern blacks and their living conditions in the US at that time is accurate. Don't forget that there were even segregated units in the US military at that time.
A linky for the "Rural Mother' for a US photo taken during the Great Depression is a strange comparison to a German propaganda film, don't you think? Especially a GD-era photo of a mother of nine in a poor as can be state of Tennessee, even before the GD they probably would have worn rags and sacks. lol
Ken Burns book 'The War' has some great wartime America photographs.

[Panzerknacker]

BTW PZ it seems for me , you watch too much the Deutsche Wochenschau befor sleep


I have seen this sometime ago, is just that I tough this was the perfect time to put it.

The big advantage of the wochenschau is that is available for free, if you can give me some link of russian newsreel I will be very glad.

However the question remain..it is all true or a faked film ?

[Egorka]

I have seen this sometime ago, is just that I tough thsi was the perfect time to put it.
Of course it was the perfect time! :)

The thing is that the conditions (f.ex. the poor agricultural living and living in the ground holes) IMO does not have anything to do with the Bolshevic ruling in USSR. Those people most likely livet the same way before the Revolution.

And just in case once more - I am not a communist. Though it is not like I don't see anything good in communist idea either, I do.

[Panzerknacker]

The thing is that the conditions (f.ex. the poor agricultural living and living in the ground holes) IMO does not have anything to do with the Bolshevic ruling in USSR. Those people most likely livet the same way before the Revolution.


Yea sure...:rolleyes:, but how many ortodox Churches were converted in vodka factories or power stations before the communist ruling ?

And is not like have a power station is bad but...probably it could be build in someother place than a house of faith.


A film showing equally bad conditions in America, or England or Australia, around the same time could have been made. Plenty of still photographs for it were made in America.

Pure bullshit, the freedoms and living conditions in USA even in an after depression scenery were completely different than the USSR, you know it and everybody know it.

A linky for the "Rural Mother' for a US photo taken during the Great Depression is a strange comparison to a German propaganda film, don't you think?

You are new so let me explain, that is the stile of RS, one very hard to understand.

[Rising Sun*]

Not to get off topic but I'm not sure what the fake wireless phone pic has to do with anything unless I missed the point

Didn't see that. Possibly related to hotlinking to a photo and the site substituted a meaningless one.

A linky for the "Rural Mother' for a US photo taken during the Great Depression is a strange comparison to a German propaganda film, don't you think? Especially a GD-era photo of a mother of nine in a poor as can be state of Tennessee, even before the GD they probably would have worn rags and sacks.

My point is simply that there was ample material to have produced a propaganda film about America in the 1930s showing it to be about as badly off as the USSR.

[Rising Sun*]

Pure bullshit, the freedoms and living conditions in USA even in an after depression scenery were completely different than the USSR, you know it and everybody know it.

If you're going to respond forcefully, try to avoid making a fool of yourself by making sure you respond to what people say rather than what you think, in your distorted and rather florid interpretations, they said.

I said

A film showing equally bad conditions in America, or England or Australia, around the same time could have been made. Plenty of still photographs for it were made in America.

That is not bullshit, pure or even heavily adulterated.

A propagandising commentary on this film could easily achieve it, and it's not even setting out to be propaganda.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BQBiOug21sE

You are new so let me explain, that is the stile of RS, one very hard to understand.

If anyone has a comprehension problem around here, it's you, Otto.

I am indebted to you for that comment about me to a new member. I'll spare him my views about you, Otto.

[Chevan]

However the question remain..it is all true or a faked film ?
This is matter of your personal political orientation:)
Is the Nazy propogand true or faked on your mind?
Or could ever it be the true?
If somewhat yes- then you should admit the Nazy ideas about other matter, not just about "live in Russia".
You should realize that the Nazy finally blamed the Jewry in every of such "documentary" film.
I personally don't see nothing interesting in Nazy film about "Russian life" ( especially shoted during the cruel occupation of 1941-43 ).

[Panzerknacker]

The propaganda is always a mix of true and non true events, in that aspect the nazi Wochenschau was not different to any other film of WW2.


This is matter of your personal political orientation


Good point, is generally like that but I believe that if you are balanced enough you can discern between one and other regardless your political orientation.


If somewhat yes- then you should admit the Nazy ideas about other matter, not just about "live in Russia".
You should realize that the Nazy finally blamed the Jewry in every of such "documentary" film.
I personally don't see nothing interesting in Nazy film about "Russian life" ( especially shoted during the cruel occupation of 1941-43 ).


I dont agree if somebody admit that the living is russian was appalling that does not automatically made him a german supporter.:rolleyes:

The nazis the blame the jew but also dont forget the "bolchevismus"

[Egorka]

Yea sure...:rolleyes:, but how many ortodox Churches were converted in vodka factories or power stations before the communist ruling ?
And is not like have a power station is bad but...probably it could be build in someother place than a house of faith.
I do not know right away about the vodka factories... but out something like 500 or so churches in Moscow alone by 1970s remain about 30 or so in service. The rest were either blown up or the buildings were reused for different purposes.

In the beggining of the 1930s the slogan was that Religion will seiz to exist in the course of 10 years i.e. with some direction the people will abandon the supersticious way of thinking.

Yes, for me as a believer it is a dark page in the Russian history. But again I do not claim USSR was a paradise either. :)

[Egorka]

I dont agree if somebody admit that the living is russian was appalling that does not automatically made him a german supporter.:rolleyes:
Right. Though the life was not just appalling. The life was different.

[Kato]

I do not know right away about the vodka factories... but out something like 500 or so churches in Moscow alone by 1970s remain about 30 or so in service. The rest were either blown up or the buildings were reused for different purposes.

In the beggining of the 1930s the slogan was that Religion will seiz to exist in the course of 10 years i.e. with some direction the people will abandon the supersticious way of thinking.

Yes, for me as a believer it is a dark page in the Russian history. But again I do not claim USSR was a paradise either. :)


Don't you think that the bulk of Russian people were anti-Christian?

When the tsar governemnt was demolished there were lots of churches burnt and priests alongside with landlords hanged in the Russian regions by ordinary Russian peasants without any Bolsheviks. The Russain Orthodox church and Christian religion were viewed as one of the pillars of old hated tsar regime by ordinary Russians. Even pre-comminist era's Russian folklore depicted priests as negative characters.

[pdf27]

Don't you think that the bulk of Russian people were anti-Christian?
Anti-Christian, Anti-Cleric or Anti-Established Church? The three are not the same thing. In societies where the established church taxes the populace heavily and regulates their lives whether they like it or not, the church tends to suffer quite badly come a revolution. Not all churches though - just those associated in the public mind with the "abuses".

[Kato]

Anti-Christian, Anti-Cleric or Anti-Established Church? The three are not the same thing. In societies where the established church taxes the populace heavily and regulates their lives whether they like it or not, the church tends to suffer quite badly come a revolution. Not all churches though - just those associated in the public mind with the "abuses".

In Moscovian-Russian tradition Christianity, Clerics and Established Church formed one entity that could not be separated, had no alternatives and was fully integrated into the tsar's regime.

[larryparamedic]

I do not know right away about the vodka factories... but out something like 500 or so churches in Moscow alone by 1970s remain about 30 or so in service. The rest were either blown up or the buildings were reused for different purposes.

In the beggining of the 1930s the slogan was that Religion will seiz to exist in the course of 10 years i.e. with some direction the people will abandon the supersticious way of thinking.

Yes, for me as a believer it is a dark page in the Russian history. But again I do not claim USSR was a paradise either. :)

You make a good case for the film being true concerning 'converting' or reusing the (churches in this case) buildings for other purposes. That is a pretty easy idea to accept in most any country. In the US we had the bizarre Salem witch hunts, which was to do with nothing more than 'religious' warring. Like the "Inquisition". And on and on...
Personally I believe the film portrays at least a base truth, if you will, about the churches.
And I completely agree the film, as any film imo, is in the eye of the film maker. And thus it will always be biased to their point of view, and what they want you to see. It is only the 'masters' that can film unbiased, and they are few and notable.

[Egorka]

In Moscovian-Russian tradition Christianity, Clerics and Established Church formed one entity that could not be separated, had no alternatives and was fully integrated into the tsar's regime.

Exactly. That is why I would not say "Anti-Cristian" (this term normaly has a specific flavour in Cristian beleive). The anticlerical acts prior to the Bolshevics that you mentioned (I do not know how numerous they were though) were IMHO aimed at the specific clerics not so much against the Church.

[Egorka]

You make a good case for the film being true concerning 'converting' or reusing the (churches in this case) buildings for other purposes.
Yes. But it was known way prior to this film. It was not a secret anywyas. It was part of the official doctrine. The church buildings were either reused or destroyed.
Of course not all of them were destroyed. Some were not touched and some were preserved as the historical monuments.

The problem of this film is not only that is a propaganda per se. But that it tries to counteract the soviet propaganda.
And the result is somewhat grotesk - two distorted and biased view points try to negate eachother.

Looking at such a filv one should not compare it against an other official propaganda image.