M1 carbine

[GliderInfantry]

How good was the Mi carbine? compared to other U.S. weapons in WW2, it was lighter than the grand M1 .Does any one know where I might purchase one ?

[BriteLite]

I own an early 50's model(not for sale). Fun and cheap to shoot. Decent ROF BUT the round is small=no knock down power. The M1 was used in WW2, Korea and Nam. Invariably the complaint was opponents would fight on after hits scored. In combat I would take the Garand. Basically 30.06 vs .25cal.

As I said it is fun to have around. If buying for hobbyist use get one. If for defense your money is better spent elsewhere.

[overlord644]

yah, a website about the parachute infantry noted that due to its low knock-down power that they were often "thrown away in disgust", but im not sure which site that was

Donald Burgett also noted that M1carbines were "usually carried by radiomen, weapon crews and officers when no close combat was expected.... we'd seen too many people hit with the damn little things and keep running"

[Nickdfresh]

I own an early 50's model(not for sale). Fun and cheap to shoot. Decent ROF BUT the round is small=no knock down power. The M1 was used in WW2, Korea and Nam. Invariably the complaint was opponents would fight on after hits scored. In combat I would take the Garand. Basically 30.06 vs .25cal.

As I said it is fun to have around. If buying for hobbyist use get one. If for defense your money is better spent elsewhere.

*Mod note: Please take care to start threads in appropriate forums, the M-1 Carbine is a US weapon and thus is in one of the US forums...

As for the carbine, I think the stopping power issue came to a head in Korea, where the quilted winter uniforms of the Chinese PLA Volunteers, at greater ranges, often slowed down the bullet leaving insufficient stopping power. I'm not sure how widely it was complained about in WWII...

[Nickdfresh]

Isn't the .30 cal. ammo kind of pricey?

[Twitch1]

Glider infantry- go to you local Big 5 store they just got a batch of mil spec carbines. but the price is, ouch, $999 and as mentioned ammo is expensive.

[Tony Williams]

The M1 Carbine was intended as what is now known as a Personal Defence Weapon: i.e., for non-infantry troops who needed something for self-defence. It was therefore seen as more of a pistol replacement than a rifle alternative (and was much, much more useful than any pistol).

In fact, it was so light and handy that it was used by infantry (especially in its full-auto M2 form) including, IIRC, Audie Murphy, the most highly-decorated US soldier of the war, who went on to be a Hollywood film star.

[pdf27]

As you should all know:
1) The M1 carbine is "spring operated"
2) The design of the M1 carbine has nothing to do with the M1 Garand
3) Fulton Armoury produced the M1 carbine in WW2
4) The greater accuracy of the M1 carbine made it more effective than SMG's in house-to-house fighting

So ends the Gospel according to Ironman!

[Nickdfresh]

As you should all know:
1) The M1 carbine is "spring operated"
2) The design of the M1 carbine has nothing to do with the M1 Garand
3) Fulton Armoury produced the M1 carbine in WW2
4) The greater accuracy of the M1 carbine made it more effective than SMG's in house-to-house fighting

So ends the Gospel according to Ironman!


It was also the world's first assault rifle... :)

The M1 Carbine was intended as what is now known as a Personal Defence Weapon: i.e., for non-infantry troops who needed something for self-defence. It was therefore seen as more of a pistol replacement than a rifle alternative (and was much, much more useful than any pistol).

In fact, it was so light and handy that it was used by infantry (especially in its full-auto M2 form) including, IIRC, Audie Murphy, the most highly-decorated US soldier of the war, who went on to be a Hollywood film star.

Actually, Tony, I don't think the full auto, M-2 (submachine-gun!) version came out until after WWII, but I could be wrong. As did the 30 round magazine for it...

I once read the Germans prized capturing Carbines as it fit in with their close assault doctrine and you can see a few examples of this in photographs, especially during the Bulge...

[bas]

The Germans liked them enough to use them instead of their Kar98k's. Theres a couple of period photos of German soldiers using M1 carbines. I've yet to see a combat photo of a German using a M1 Garand.

[RifleMan20]

[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;121732]It was also the world's first assault rifle... :)[QUOTE]

isnt the stg44 the actual first, the carbine was made to be a light weight rifle, not assult rifle, i could be wrong though so correct me if so

[Nickdfresh]

[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;121732]It was also the world's first assault rifle... :)[QUOTE]

isnt the stg44 the actual first, the carbine was made to be a light weight rifle, not assult rifle, i could be wrong though so correct me if so


LOL I was joking based on statements Ironing Man once made.

You are correct to an extent, however, I believe a Russian/Soviet officer developed a reduced power cartridge automatic rifle years before, but it never saw any real service beyond field trials...

Someone can correct me if I am wrong. And the Carbine was considered a submachine-gun by the US Army in its selective fire model (M-2), so who am I to argue...

P.S.: The Italians and the Russians both designed assault rifles and the Russians used them in small numbers around WWI...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

[Tony Williams]

For a brief history of assault rifles and their cartridges, see: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

[Carl Schwamberger]

The Germans liked them enough to use them instead of their Kar98k's. Theres a couple of period photos of German soldiers using M1 carbines. I've yet to see a combat photo of a German using a M1 Garand.

I've seen a few in books & the internet. On either the Feldgrau or the Axis History Forum web sites there was a thread titled Photographs of Germans With Allied Weapons or some such.

Interestingly when some German cousins of ours visited in the 1960s one of the Wehrmacht veterans told us the Garand was frequently used. As long as the ammo was available they would fire it rather than the "karbine" and the "tommygun" (I think he was refering to the Schmeisser machine pistol a earlier remark refered to only having that in his regiment and never having the newer automatic weapons issued).

[Carl Schwamberger]

Here is one collection of photos. have fun.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1066278&sid=706ad33ad0e53117a9869ae041ec0f36

[ww2admin]

Yikes, what'd they do to their forum?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Improved it.

I had a bit of coorespondence with the sysop during the change. He tweaked a item or two in response to my commnets, but no fundamental changes. Unfortunatly the current format is harsher on my eyes. Like the format here I now cant take more than 15-20 minutes before severe eye fatigue sets in. Also the colors match this forum so clsoely I now forget which I am on. :(

[RifleMan20]

Here is one collection of photos. have fun.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1066278&sid=706ad33ad0e53117a9869ae041ec0f36

Wow, they like using ebay as a very informative site

[bas]

Wow, they like using ebay as a very informative site

o.O Where did that come from? Tha Axis History Forums is one of the best sources of discussion on WWII on the web!

They most difinatly do not use ebay as an "informative site", what you are seeing in that picture thread is people using images that they took from past ebay auctions for WWII period photos of the German army.

There is a huge difference!

[RifleMan20]

Well my bad, what i was trying to say is they use ebay for alot of their pictures

[GliderInfantry]

the carbine used in ww2 had a 15 shot clip ,and those used in korea and vietnam had the banana clip I think it held 30 shot am I right or wrong

[bas]

the carbine used in ww2 had a 15 shot clip ,and those used in korea and vietnam had the banana clip I think it held 30 shot am I right or wrong

You're wrong. The M1 carbine uses magazines not clips, the M1 Garand uses a clip. Also it shoots bullets not bananas so I don't know why they would issue a clip of banana's to soldiers during the Korean war.

But hey I guess in war stranger things have happened like all the Iron Crosses and condoms that were dropped on the trapped, starving Germans in Stalingrad by the Luftwaffa.

[Nickdfresh]

the carbine used in ww2 had a 15 shot clip ,and those used in korea and vietnam had the banana clip I think it held 30 shot am I right or wrong


I'm not sure if the 30-round banana-split clip was issued during WWII or not, it may have coincided with the M-2 selective fire version that appeared in 1944.

*correction of meself, the M-2 came out towards the end of the War, not just before Korea.:)

[savoy6]

the 30 rnd mag was not used during WW2. neither was the M2 version for anything other than testing.
for many carbine users there was/is a "love /hate " sort of thing......guys in WW2 and korea either loved the gun or hated it..as stated, it was intended to be issued out to officers,weapons crews,and rear area personel as a replacement for the .45.they were part of the issue equipment on most US tank destroyers and self-propelled guns as well.as an owner of one ('43 underwood), i can say they are a joy to shoot and with some of the more modern .30 cal ammo would be useful for home defence,given their light weight and low recoil.
i wouldn't term it an assault rifle...i really think the title for first in that goes to the Stg 44...i can see how folks would like it for house clearing..though personally ,i would prefer the thompson or M3 grease gun for that.
also, the M2 version had a tendency to heat up really quickly on full auto ,given the wood forearm on top of it and the light weight of the barrel and reciever....
we made more than 5 million of them during WW2...we gave oodles of them away during vietnam because they liked the size of it compared to the garand.
we still have around a million or so still in storage in several arsenals around the US.
and they aren't using ebay as a "reference"....just a source for the pics themselves...

[GliderInfantry]

What is CMP

[Grot]

What is CMP

Civilian Marksmanship Program. They allow qualified American citizens to buy surplus rifles and ammo directly from them. I purchased a few M1 Garands and a M1903A3 from them. The prices are hard to beat and the profits go to good use (such as youth competitions).

http://www.odcmp.com/

[HAWKEYE]

The M1 Carbine was spring operated

I see now that I re-read this that you are being sarcastic about an old members beliefs but you should post the true info for people who would think this is true.

If you go by that statement then every semi-auto and full-auto weapon in the world is "spring operated" since they all use springs to return the bolt or fire from the open bolt position. The correct info is that the M1 Carbine was a gas operated weapon.

The other statements were pretty much off base as well, the carbine was manufactured by many companies during WWII but not by Fulton Armoury, actually the SMG was much better in house to house fighting, but the development of the carbine did have nothing to do with the development of the M1 Garand, it did base it's firing mechanisim on the Garand design but incorporated the short stroke piston developed by David "Carbine" Williams while he was serving time for murder.

A couple of months after Ed Browning's death in May 1939, Winchester hired ex-convict David M. "Carbine" Williams, a some-time bootlegger who had devised a short-stroke gas piston design while serving a prison sentence for murder. (This unlikely true story, a natural for the movie industry, was the basis of the 1952 movie Carbine Williams starring James Stewart.) Winchester hoped Williams would be able to complete various designs left unfinished by Ed Browning. Williams' first design change for the rifle was the incorporation of his short-stroke piston design. After the Marine Corps semi-automatic rifle trials in 1940, Browning's rear-locking tilting bolt design was considered to be unreliable in sandy conditions. As a result, the rifle was redesigned yet again to incorporate a Garand-style rotating bolt and operating rod.

[Floating Chamber]

The M1 Carbine was developed from U.S. Patent 2,090,656. Contents of this patent, taken out by David Marsh Williams of N.C. clearly shows an early gas take-off. The 'carbine' in the movie 'Carbine Williams' , utilised a 'floating chamber'* and was built on a Browning Model 8 frame. The barrel-housing and chamber were made from a Ford crankshaft. (The 'throw' and main bearing.) This prototype, made in Caledonia Prison Farm, N.C. by Williams, during his incarceration in the 1920's**, showed there was no need to have a recoiling barrel or, indeed, a long stroke piston-rod to operate semi-automatic/automatic weapons.

*(This method of operation was later used in the Winchester Model 50 Automatic Shotgun, the first automatic shotgun to function with a fixed barrel. The floating chamber is also the operating heart of the Remington 550A autoloader, where .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle shells could be loaded together in any order. The chamber was used also to allow the .45 ACP M1911 auto-pistol and .30 cal 1919 Browning machine gun to cycle on .22 LR., saving the U.S. Government millions of dollars in training.)

** Two decades before the M1 Carbine appeared on the scene!

The M1 Carbine, dubbed by some as 'The Cook's Rifle' was never meant as a long range weapon and any criticism was, I reckon, the result of expecting too much of it. I have 1966 b/w footage of Mr. Williams letting 30 rounds rip from a M2; I would not have liked to have stood 200 yards in front of it!

Few people know this, but Marsh Williams also made a larger version of this cute little rifle in .30-06. It is a beast of a weapon and would have scared the enemy stiff just by looking at it! Imagine a scaled-up version of the carbine, with a big .30-06 mag underneath! Once again, I have colour footage of K.Martin Hill's buddy Henry Joyner and 'Carbine' Williams firing this variant. Awesome!

For those interested in this footage, and 'Carbine's' 2,000 rpm .22 machine gun, get yourself a copy of 'In The Sights of a Weapons Genius - CARBINE WILLIAMS'*** from MVI Productions, 3113 Airlee St., Charlotte, N.C. 28205.

*** Mr. Williams also fires his muzzle-loading wooden pistol (with a bamboo barrel wrapped in fishing line!), and the 'glass-barrelled' Winchester Model 59 auto shotgun.



The book shown below, (now a collector's item), is excellent reading! The movie? Well, it's enjoyable, but a lot of it, to the trained eye, is 'Hollywood'.


Information above comes from forty years of study and from long conversations with Williams family-members, together with Ross E. Beard, Jr (Author of 'Carbine', ISBN 0-87844-036-4), and K. Martin Hill.

Floating Chamber

[tankgeezer]

There is a bit of difference in being struck by a bullet weighing 110gr. versus one weighing between 152,and 170gr. The smaller 110 gr used in the carbine is considered a small game slug, Rabbit, fox, etc. This would not be expected to produce the type of wound associated with the heavier, higher powered M-2 cartridge of the Springfield, or Garand rifles. (Excepting of course head shots, or hits to vital organs)

[merlin]

It is important to see what was the purpose the weapon was designed. I think that too much was expected for it. If we analyze the weapons and the time in which it was designed and issued, it was a revolutionary weapon. For the americans, I think it was a wasted opportunity to develop and assault rifle, many years behind, and without useless experimentation, which happened later. At close quarters, it was better than the big, long and heavy Garand, lighter than the Thompson, and easier to shoot than the Colt 45.It is interesting to notice that german troops were very fond of the captured carbines, and used them extensively during the battle of the Bulge.

[tankgeezer]

It is important to see what was the purpose the weapon was designed. I think that too much was expected for it. If we analyze the weapons and the time in which it was designed and issued, it was a revolutionary weapon. For the americans, I think it was a wasted opportunity to develop and assault rifle, many years behind, and without useless experimentation, which happened later. At close quarters, it was better than the big, long and heavy Garand, lighter than the Thompson, and easier to shoot than the Colt 45.It is interesting to notice that german troops were very fond of the captured carbines, and used them extensively during the battle of the Bulge.
There was the M-2 carbine, same weapon, just with a selector switch,so it was a sort of assault weapon, while not terribly powerful, it was a good weapon for some situations. It was very controllable in full auto mode, a pleasure to use.

[Nickdfresh]

There was the M-2 carbine, same weapon, just with a selector switch,so it was a sort of assault weapon, while not terribly powerful, it was a good weapon for some situations. It was very controllable in full auto mode, a pleasure to use.


It was officially considered a sub-machine gun and was good at short ranges, but had problems penetrating the winter uniforms of the Chinese PLA "Volunteers" during Korea at any distances....

[pdf27]

Guys, stop it. You're giving me IRONMAN flashbacks!

[tankgeezer]

It was officially considered a sub-machine gun and was good at short ranges, but had problems penetrating the winter uniforms of the Chinese PLA "Volunteers" during Korea at any distances....
True that it had little staying power,, with a projo weight of 110 troy grains there was little to keep it going, much less with the capability to penetrate much at any real distance. As a personal defense weapon, it was more useful, and 2nd lieutenants needed all the help they could get, so it was good for that. The one I got to fire was very pleasant, easy to keep on target even in rock n' roll. like watering the garden.
Stop what PDF ? this is just some gentlemanly discourse on a weapon that gets little topical consideration. The M-1/M-2 carbine is a tweener weapon, the pushmepullyou of firearms.

[pdf27]

Sadly, we once had a rather spectacular troll who was rather irrational on the subject of the M1 Carbine.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/IRONMAN
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2277&page=3

[tankgeezer]

Ah,,, Fear not, I'm out of things to say about the weapons in question.

[Nickdfresh]

Sadly, we once had a rather spectacular troll who was rather irrational on the subject of the M1 Carbine.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/IRONMAN
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2277&page=3


One thing about the Carbine relating to assault rifles though was that the M-2 may well have helped create a constituency in the US Army for smaller, lighter weapons with more firepower as the junior officers of Korea gradually became generals in the early 1960s -and hence the M-16...

[Floating Chamber]

As I said... Mr. Williams offered a .30-'06 version of the M1, but I reckon it fell on deaf ears. The Winchester Automatic Rifle (WAR) was another of his developments. Sadly, only twelve were made for testing.

FC