PDA

View Full Version : What do you see?



Egorka
03-26-2008, 09:56 AM
Hi,

I have two questions on the following photo:

Do you know where, when in what circumstances it was taken?
What do you see is happening on this photo?

Major Walter Schmidt
03-26-2008, 12:50 PM
hmm... it looks like the guy tried to steal the bike.
maybe its a screenshot from a movie?

George Eller
03-26-2008, 01:51 PM
-

I see a Russian soldier helping a lady to align the handlebar and front tire of her bicycle.

:)

-

Egorka
03-26-2008, 03:14 PM
hmm... it looks like the guy tried to steal the bike.
maybe its a screenshot from a movie?
I do not think it is a movie. It is a real photo.
To my veig knowledge it is a RKKA soldier in Germany/Berlin????

Richie B
03-27-2008, 02:57 PM
Hallo I've just joined so I thought I would write something.

I have seen this photo before [can't remeber where I'm afraid] captioned as a Soviet soldier attempting to steal the German woman's bicycle in Berlin 1945.

Major Walter Schmidt
03-27-2008, 11:56 PM
Thus, the crappy buildings in the background...:)

Panzerknacker
03-29-2008, 10:07 AM
I think that Egorka already know what was the situation, he just enjoyed to see our reactions. Just like "The master " topic. Well, there is hobbies more bizarres than this.

Rising Sun*
03-29-2008, 10:24 AM
It's just a Russki feeling up the town bike.

Or it could be a Russki helping someone fix their bike. ;)

MayberrySaint
03-29-2008, 12:22 PM
Drunken Ivan trying to steal a bike in Berlin, so he can bike on over to the girls youth hostel and continue his raping and pillaging...

Nickdfresh
03-29-2008, 01:21 PM
A glorious soldier of the Great Patriotic War gallantly withstands the Fraulein Berlin bicycle offensive of of 1945. Obviously the decadent tart is just trying to knock him him to the ground so she can have her way with him!

Rising Sun*
03-30-2008, 07:38 AM
A glorious soldier of the Great Patriotic War gallantly withstands the Fraulein Berlin bicycle offensive of of 1945.

:D :D :D

Major Walter Schmidt
03-30-2008, 12:01 PM
Maybe she's stealing the bike from him. Anybody good on WWII soviet bikes?

Egorka
03-30-2008, 04:45 PM
I think that Egorka already know what was the situation, he just enjoyed to see our reactions. Just like "The master " topic. Well, there is hobbies more bizarres than this.
I never said I did not know what this picture depicts. I just asked what other might know more presice. And I also asked what they see, what is they observation of this picture.

Regarding hobbies... Well, your psychoanalytic skill sucks, my friend.

Egorka
03-30-2008, 05:23 PM
For those who does not get it is a photo of an episode where an RKKA soldier trying to rob that woman for her bike. Something like that.

Well I actually have one observasion that I find interesting about this photo.
Look at the faces of the german public. There are quite many people on that photo. I do not see much fear on their faces. Half of the public is standing just 1 meter away and watches the event unfolding. The other half passes by. Seemingly calm. The face of the victim does not express much fear as well. Rather determination to stand up for the property.

Considering that alledgedly the barbarian hordes "... raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)" this is an surprising to see that they are not trying to escape the potentially dangerous place where the conflict involving a occupational force is about to unfold.

What do you think?

Nickdfresh
03-30-2008, 05:38 PM
Well, a picture says a thousand words. Mostly:

"Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened ....

Panzerknacker
03-31-2008, 06:14 PM
Jesus Christ... :shock: with this only pic you try to deny the multiple accusations/whitnesses against the Red army, let me say that your case is at list weak.

The crimes happen and also happen the crimes from the German side, I am pretty sure that the SS and Heer got his quote of raping too.

Man, I think is time to grow up and accept the simple facts, your are not too young already, you have children...that is what are you teaching to them ? no good at all. Probably you are too blinded to realize but this is utterly ridiculous.

Is this the today fashion in Russia to deny all the fact of history and change it for a more sweetened variant ?

That is worst than my Freud skills.

bd88
04-01-2008, 12:07 AM
it's a well known photo about Soviet occupation in Berlin after the capitulation. I think that Soviet soldier just want to show the defeated who's the winner of the war. what i want to know is what happen to that woman after this photo was taken

Egorka
04-01-2008, 02:37 AM
Panzerknacker,

Please read your post again. Willingly or not, you are blindly pedaling your point of view (whatever it is) without any regard to what is being said by others.
Listen to me again... carefuly... and try to understand: Nothing in your reply has anything to do with my comments here or my position.
You are fighting with the ghosts of your own interpretation of other people's point of view.
Please think about it.

Egorka
04-01-2008, 02:42 AM
Hi bd88! Welcome to the forum!

it's a well known photo about Soviet occupation in Berlin after the capitulation. I think that Soviet soldier just want to show the defeated who's the winner of the war.
Yes, I know it is a known photo. It was among other featured in the A.Beevors book about the fall of Berlin.
I was curious if one knew more presise when and where it was taken. And were it was first published.


what i want to know is what happen to that woman after this photo was taken
What do you think happened to her and why do think that?
Waht about the witnesses and other by passers on the photo?

Egorka
04-01-2008, 03:30 AM
here I found uncroped photo (with a teenager in shorts on the right)
http://www.rosfoto.ru/photos/big/0028000/028206_363.jpg

Rising Sun*
04-01-2008, 03:54 AM
Panzerknacker,

.....

Nothing in your reply has anything to do with my comments here ...

Agreed.

Rising Sun*
04-01-2008, 04:13 AM
I was curious if one knew more presise when and where it was taken. And were it was first published.

I think we've been through this on some other photo (can't remember photo or if it was you or someone else) about them being capable of different interpretations, but, seriously, the photo could just as easily represent the Soviet soldier doing something to help the woman fix her bike.

Without full knowledge and context, how do we know that he's not retrieving something stolen from him?

And captions don't always help. Such as this one to the picture


Bike Fight
A Russian soldier involved in a misunderstanding with a German woman in Berlin, over a bicycle he wished to buy from her. (Photo by Keystone/Getty Images)

by KeystoneSunday December 31st, 1944 reference: 2660955http://www.jamd.com/image/g/2660955?partner=Google&epmid=1

Does that look like Berlin on 31 December 1944?

If it was, no bloody wonder he wants to get a bike and pedal like hell out of there, because he's months ahead of the rest of the Soviet army and the only Russian soldier in Berlin, without a rifle. :D

If it really was taken or published on 31 December 1944, it wasn't Berlin.

Egorka
04-01-2008, 08:32 AM
Without full knowledge and context, how do we know that he's not retrieving something stolen from him?
That is true. No doubt.
Though it is like in a court: some evidense is direct and some are circumstantial. The later ones are not proving a point but together with others evidense bring light on the situation.
That is what I am after. I see a photo and I can not help thinking. I wish I could stop my mental process but all my attempts are failing. Not even your inspiration by example helps me, Rising Sun. :)


And captions don't always help. Such as this one to the picture
Does that look like Berlin on 31 December 1944?
If it was, no bloody wonder he wants to get a bike and pedal like hell out of there, because he's months ahead of the rest of the Soviet army and the only Russian soldier in Berlin, without a rifle. :D
If it really was taken or published on 31 December 1944, it wasn't Berlin.
Really cool stuff!
Firstly, notice that this is yet the third croping variation of this picture. The man on the left is fully in the frame.

And you are obviously right about the misallignment between the date, place and the caption.

Panzerknacker
04-01-2008, 09:32 AM
Panzerknacker,

Please read your post again. Willingly or not, you are blindly pedaling your point of view (whatever it is) without any regard to what is being said by others.
Listen to me again... carefuly... and try to understand: Nothing in your reply has anything to do with my comments here or my position.
You are fighting with the ghosts of your own interpretation of other people's point of view.
Please think about it.


If you like to think is fine to me, I believe that most people here are aware of the intentions behind your earlier post and the rest of the pictures.

Hopefully this is only a rare and personal point of view, hopefully is not the majority of the russian population.

Egorka
04-01-2008, 02:04 PM
... I believe that most people here are aware of the intentions behind your earlier post and the rest of the pictures.
Please, tell me what exactly was my intention with the earlier post (I guess you mean "the Master" thread). I would like to learn from my mistakes and improve on my personality. So I would apprciate if you tell me what mistake I made by creating that thread.

By the way, what exactly do you mean by "the rest of the pictures"? Which ones is that?


Hopefully this is only a rare and personal point of view, hopefully is not the majority of the russian population.
Pesonal point of view... I hope you will tell me what exactly my point of view is that is hopefully a minority one. Please tell me what is my personal point of view.

Rising Sun*
04-01-2008, 06:40 PM
Maybe the photo covers an event like this? :D


A Russian soldier was riding along the Berlin street upon his bicycle when he saw, coming from the opposite direction, a German also riding a bicycle but without his hands upon the handlebars. The Russian thought it was a ‘special’ bicycle and made the German exchange bicycles. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/88/a3101888.shtml

Chevan
04-02-2008, 07:25 AM
Well I actually have one observasion that I find interesting about this photo.
Look at the faces of the german public. There are quite many people on that photo. I do not see much fear on their faces. Half of the public is standing just 1 meter away and watches the event unfolding. The other half passes by. Seemingly calm. The face of the victim does not express much fear as well. Rather determination to stand up for the property.
What do you think?

Hello komerades:)
Actually this picture looks wery strange.
Its seems womans behind are .. disappointed:)
The other interesting thing is who did shot this picture?
I doubt that the soviet photographer will shot the violence toward the Germans civils.
Also if it is allien photographer- this is very unlikely that the Soviet soldiers would so roughly robbed the Germans in the streets.
Becouse in the april of 1945 the special order of Stavka treated by punishment for every soldiers for violence.

Sure the bike is very desirable for russians at that time.
I mean most of them did not even see the bikes befor.

Chevan
04-02-2008, 07:45 AM
Jesus Christ... :shock: with this only pic you try to deny the multiple accusations/whitnesses against the Red army, let me say that your case is at list weak.

The crimes happen and also happen the crimes from the German side, I am pretty sure that the SS and Heer got his quote of raping too.

Man, I think is time to grow up and accept the simple facts, your are not too young already, you have children...that is what are you teaching to them ? no good at all. Probably you are too blinded to realize but this is utterly ridiculous.
.................................................. .........
Hopefully this is only a rare and personal point of view, hopefully is not the majority of the russian population.
.

Damn ... our friend Panzerette still confuse the reality with imaginary:shock:
Thank you for touching care about our children.. but i have to distress you.
Your attack at the the Egorka is simply foolish, do you realise it yourself?
He just asked the question- you began the hysteria:)
Relax buddy.
We all know you could be a good lad:)

Rising Sun*
04-02-2008, 08:51 AM
Your attack at the the Egorka is simply foolish, do you realise it yourself?
He just asked the question- you began the hysteria:)


Yeah, but aren't you glad to see you can go away for a few weeks and come back to find that nothing has changed? ;)

I almost missed you while you were away. :D

Chevan
04-02-2008, 09:13 AM
Yeah, but aren't you glad to see you can go away for a few weeks and come back to find that nothing has changed? ;)

I almost missed you while you were away. :D
Sure i/m glad that everybody is on its own places and nothing has changed.
Especially your feeling of humour:)

Panzerknacker
04-02-2008, 10:28 AM
Thank you for touching care about our children.. but i have to distress you.
Your attack at the the Egorka is simply foolish, do you realise it yourself?



Wrong, I am not attacking anybody, I just want to show how ridiculous Egorka looks saying that this pic is a proof that the german population did not fear the russian soldiers...this pic. And he also mixed it with the raping question...just too silly.

But I am wiser man now, the next time I will not bother to look into the next tricky topic that are so liked by EK.

Chevan
04-02-2008, 10:44 AM
how ridiculous Egorka looks saying that this pic is a proof that the german population did not fear the russian soldiers...this pic.
Where he told that this pic is the proof that population did not fear the Soviet soldiers?
Nobody here are not deny the facts of rapings or violence in GENERAL, but i ask you again- where do you see fear in this pic?
Sorry but it seems you are a bit biased here.

Egorka
04-02-2008, 04:09 PM
Welcome back, Chevan!!! :)

Egorka
04-02-2008, 04:16 PM
I just want to show how ridiculous Egorka looks saying that this pic is a proof that the german population did not fear the russian soldiers...this pic.
And he also mixed it with the raping question...just too silly.
Well the fear existed no doubt. It existed even before RKKA entered the German territory, you know better then me about the Geobel's scare propaganda compaign towards the German public where he said that those barbarians will come and kill and rape everyone. That is why there were so many German refugees into the West of Germany.
And the actuall crimes commited by Soviet soldiers obviously added to the existing fear.

So knowing all that I personaly can not understand this picture. You can see your self that the people are not afraid too much of what is happening just in front of them. Can you see it too?


But I am wiser man now, the next time I will not bother to look into the next tricky topic that are so liked by EK.
Yes, very tricky indeed! Watch out for me... and my children... I teach them to be mean and hate Argentinians that wear glasses and drive old cars and like tanks... BOOOOOOOO!

;)

Panzerknacker
04-02-2008, 07:56 PM
I teach them to be mean and hate Argentinians that wear glasses and drive old cars and like tanks


That would be the less damaging of your teaching to the poor inocent kid. :cool:

Jan Fiala
04-03-2008, 01:28 PM
Sure the bike is very desirable for russians at that time.
Yes, timepieces were very desirable too. Very importatn fact is that Soviets didn't prey only Germans. These Mongolians plundered anywere they came.
That picture looks it was taken in winter. So it is not Berlin. Maybe it was taken in winter 1945/46 (or late)...

Rising Sun*
04-03-2008, 04:27 PM
That picture looks it was taken in winter. So it is not Berlin. Maybe it was taken in winter 1945/46 (or late)...

I've found the current copyright owner of the image, who says it was taken in December 1944 in Berlin. Click on the image here for details.
http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?contractUrl=1&language=en-US&family=editorial&p=bike%20fight%20russian%20berlin&src=standard#

Either the date or the place is wrong.

Assuming the date is correct, where would the Russians be in December 1944 that doesn't have snow and isn't terribly cold, judging by the clothing?

Egorka
04-03-2008, 05:05 PM
I've found the current copyright owner of the image, who says it was taken in December 1944 in Berlin. Click on the image here for details.
http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?contractUrl=1&language=en-US&family=editorial&p=bike%20fight%20russian%20berlin&src=standard#

Either the date or the place is wrong.

Assuming the date is correct, where would the Russians be in December 1944 that doesn't have snow and isn't terribly cold, judging by the clothing?

Getty images do not own the actual photograph. They just owe an electronic copy of it. The photograph itself should be in public demain I beleive.
You can also note that the picture at Getty images is not original as it is just a cropped image (the teenages in shorts on the right is only halfshown).

I think that it is not winter. The soldier seem to be wearing the sommer uniform and the guy wears shorts - does not seem to be cool out there.
Summer uniform 1942 - 1945. (http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/images/arm_22_bw.jpg)
source: http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/arm22.htm


So I do not think we got closer.
I was told that posibly this peacture was displayed at an photo exebition somewhere around 1995. A guy will try to check the excebition catalog. It might take him some weeks though as the catalog in an other town.

Egorka
04-03-2008, 05:27 PM
One more victim of the mongolian horde member. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3313086%2c3313081%2c2658 544%2c3324908%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c3325522%2c320 0297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c3313192%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c3313180%2c342 4098%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c3270567%2c3242472%2c264 3863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c3072082%2c333 3790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c3137306%2c33 13181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c3274820%2c50 779867%2c3318785%2c3418232%2c3400502%2c3268646%2c3 142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3425615%2c3 313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c2658541%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3280653%2c3 334591|0&id=3313192)

The Western Allies and the mongolian horde members having fun (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|3379404%2c3280653%2c3334591%2c3263358%2c3318 152%2c3313194%2c3313117%2c3318796%2c3318792%2c2641 661%2c3422387%2c2667600%2c2667686%2c3379686%2c3359 414%2c3242265%2c2660917%2c3311596%2c3069239%2c3367 045%2c3139771%2c2643976%2c2672938%2c2658545%2c3248 128%2c52778700%2c3335548%2c52778719%2c52778680%2c5 2778717%2c3380085%2c3380046%2c3324175%2c3242467%2c 3276403%2c3064168%2c3429733%2c3064167%2c50499152%2 c3333996%2c3239665%2c3313079%2c3313131%2c3313191%2 c2666500%2c2658566%2c3071572%2c3401366%2c56256327% 2c56624186%2c3247139%2c3262547%2c3322039%2c3321672 %2c51949403%2c3305429%2c3325690%2c3231904%2c332059 7%2c2695461|0&id=2667686)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the German woman (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3359197)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the Allied officer (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3142685)

The Mongolian horde members desperately trying to fool the allied officer by forcing him to drinks and loose control so that they can get to know the Allied secrets. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|50603986%2c50626647%2c52774955%2c52774958%2c 3068270%2c1301672%2c79655705%2c53376574%2c53377089 %2c52755927%2c53376540%2c78987828%2c79655657%2c790 12012%2c79012041%2c52774941%2c3201306%2c3418241%2c 53376570%2c3233108%2c53370178%2c53376582%2c5337650 3%2c78962171%2c53376572%2c53376537%2c53376501%2c53 374501%2c3066767%2c53376588%2c52770985%2c78989531% 2c52774990%2c53372276%2c51400551%2c52061353%2c5062 6615%2c80415001%2c50499132%2c52778331%2c52778326%2 c3395951%2c50626603%2c52061256%2c52060788%2c520607 90%2c72474200%2c52060796%2c52060795%2c52060780%2c5 2060797%2c56684226%2c56684184%2c50626596%2c5062661 3%2c74950360%2c71715021%2c50499139%2c50626616%2c56 702196%2c56692713%2c52043053%2c51898630%2c76552358 %2c56684188%2c51084036%2c51084029%2c3426940%2c5337 7090%2c3068631%2c3068630%2c72430998%2c53377210%2c3 426951%2c77977494%2c71652980%2c3068628%2c52774995% 2c71652993%2c73134995%2c73135011%2c73545685%2c5264 2387%2c73135007%2c3382662%2c3405088%2c53373293%2c5 0499130%2c50864607%2c79655576%2c50626654%2c5049914 4%2c50499149%2c50499141%2c52973135%2c50499120%2c51 400742%2c50626646%2c50626600%2c50626631|0&id=3426951)

Rising Sun*
04-03-2008, 06:46 PM
Mongolian hordes put stolen bicycles to military use.

http://www.jamd.com/image/g/50779873?partner=Google&epmid=1

Rising Sun*
04-03-2008, 07:03 PM
How the Americans did it.


Sirs:

You feel that the Russian soldier [TIME, Aug. 20 (1945)] "thrusting a fistful of rubles" while "liberating" a German bicycle is "confused perhaps by the peculiar customs of an acquisitive society."

You may be right. For in all similar "liberations" by American troops of German bicycles, automobiles and household goods which we have witnessed, the rubles were entirely omitted.

(T/4) PHILIP JOHNSON (T/5) SIGMUND H. STEMBLER (T/5) GEORGE GRANT CARR (T/4) ROBERT B. NOTESTEIN (T/5) ROBERT J. SHAUGHNESSY

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,776125-4,00.html

Chevan
04-03-2008, 11:46 PM
One more victim of the mongolian horde member. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3313086%2c3313081%2c2658 544%2c3324908%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c3325522%2c320 0297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c3313192%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c3313180%2c342 4098%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c3270567%2c3242472%2c264 3863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c3072082%2c333 3790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c3137306%2c33 13181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c3274820%2c50 779867%2c3318785%2c3418232%2c3400502%2c3268646%2c3 142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3425615%2c3 313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c2658541%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3280653%2c3 334591|0&id=3313192)

The Western Allies and the mongolian horde members having fun (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|3379404%2c3280653%2c3334591%2c3263358%2c3318 152%2c3313194%2c3313117%2c3318796%2c3318792%2c2641 661%2c3422387%2c2667600%2c2667686%2c3379686%2c3359 414%2c3242265%2c2660917%2c3311596%2c3069239%2c3367 045%2c3139771%2c2643976%2c2672938%2c2658545%2c3248 128%2c52778700%2c3335548%2c52778719%2c52778680%2c5 2778717%2c3380085%2c3380046%2c3324175%2c3242467%2c 3276403%2c3064168%2c3429733%2c3064167%2c50499152%2 c3333996%2c3239665%2c3313079%2c3313131%2c3313191%2 c2666500%2c2658566%2c3071572%2c3401366%2c56256327% 2c56624186%2c3247139%2c3262547%2c3322039%2c3321672 %2c51949403%2c3305429%2c3325690%2c3231904%2c332059 7%2c2695461|0&id=2667686)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the German woman (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3359197)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the Allied officer (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3142685)

The Mongolian horde members desperately trying to fool the allied officer by forcing him to drinks and loose control so that they can get to know the Allied secrets. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|50603986%2c50626647%2c52774955%2c52774958%2c 3068270%2c1301672%2c79655705%2c53376574%2c53377089 %2c52755927%2c53376540%2c78987828%2c79655657%2c790 12012%2c79012041%2c52774941%2c3201306%2c3418241%2c 53376570%2c3233108%2c53370178%2c53376582%2c5337650 3%2c78962171%2c53376572%2c53376537%2c53376501%2c53 374501%2c3066767%2c53376588%2c52770985%2c78989531% 2c52774990%2c53372276%2c51400551%2c52061353%2c5062 6615%2c80415001%2c50499132%2c52778331%2c52778326%2 c3395951%2c50626603%2c52061256%2c52060788%2c520607 90%2c72474200%2c52060796%2c52060795%2c52060780%2c5 2060797%2c56684226%2c56684184%2c50626596%2c5062661 3%2c74950360%2c71715021%2c50499139%2c50626616%2c56 702196%2c56692713%2c52043053%2c51898630%2c76552358 %2c56684188%2c51084036%2c51084029%2c3426940%2c5337 7090%2c3068631%2c3068630%2c72430998%2c53377210%2c3 426951%2c77977494%2c71652980%2c3068628%2c52774995% 2c71652993%2c73134995%2c73135011%2c73545685%2c5264 2387%2c73135007%2c3382662%2c3405088%2c53373293%2c5 0499130%2c50864607%2c79655576%2c50626654%2c5049914 4%2c50499149%2c50499141%2c52973135%2c50499120%2c51 400742%2c50626646%2c50626600%2c50626631|0&id=3426951)

Ha Ha Ha
Excellent collection of photos( i have never seen it befor):)
Now we know for sure that Germans girls prefered the mongols instead the allies soldiers.
This is not surprising ,if keep in mind the fact that the Goebels propoganda PRed them as super/mega sexy heroes , who ready "to make love" with everything that move.Even the 80 years grannies:):D
The allies soldiers were chikens in comparition with soviet ones in this aspect:)

Kato
04-04-2008, 01:18 AM
One more victim of the mongolian horde member. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3313086%2c3313081%2c2658 544%2c3324908%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c3325522%2c320 0297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c3313192%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c3313180%2c342 4098%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c3270567%2c3242472%2c264 3863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c3072082%2c333 3790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c3137306%2c33 13181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c3274820%2c50 779867%2c3318785%2c3418232%2c3400502%2c3268646%2c3 142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3425615%2c3 313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c2658541%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3280653%2c3 334591|0&id=3313192)

The Western Allies and the mongolian horde members having fun (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|3379404%2c3280653%2c3334591%2c3263358%2c3318 152%2c3313194%2c3313117%2c3318796%2c3318792%2c2641 661%2c3422387%2c2667600%2c2667686%2c3379686%2c3359 414%2c3242265%2c2660917%2c3311596%2c3069239%2c3367 045%2c3139771%2c2643976%2c2672938%2c2658545%2c3248 128%2c52778700%2c3335548%2c52778719%2c52778680%2c5 2778717%2c3380085%2c3380046%2c3324175%2c3242467%2c 3276403%2c3064168%2c3429733%2c3064167%2c50499152%2 c3333996%2c3239665%2c3313079%2c3313131%2c3313191%2 c2666500%2c2658566%2c3071572%2c3401366%2c56256327% 2c56624186%2c3247139%2c3262547%2c3322039%2c3321672 %2c51949403%2c3305429%2c3325690%2c3231904%2c332059 7%2c2695461|0&id=2667686)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the German woman (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3359197)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the Allied officer (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3142685)

The Mongolian horde members desperately trying to fool the allied officer by forcing him to drinks and loose control so that they can get to know the Allied secrets. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|50603986%2c50626647%2c52774955%2c52774958%2c 3068270%2c1301672%2c79655705%2c53376574%2c53377089 %2c52755927%2c53376540%2c78987828%2c79655657%2c790 12012%2c79012041%2c52774941%2c3201306%2c3418241%2c 53376570%2c3233108%2c53370178%2c53376582%2c5337650 3%2c78962171%2c53376572%2c53376537%2c53376501%2c53 374501%2c3066767%2c53376588%2c52770985%2c78989531% 2c52774990%2c53372276%2c51400551%2c52061353%2c5062 6615%2c80415001%2c50499132%2c52778331%2c52778326%2 c3395951%2c50626603%2c52061256%2c52060788%2c520607 90%2c72474200%2c52060796%2c52060795%2c52060780%2c5 2060797%2c56684226%2c56684184%2c50626596%2c5062661 3%2c74950360%2c71715021%2c50499139%2c50626616%2c56 702196%2c56692713%2c52043053%2c51898630%2c76552358 %2c56684188%2c51084036%2c51084029%2c3426940%2c5337 7090%2c3068631%2c3068630%2c72430998%2c53377210%2c3 426951%2c77977494%2c71652980%2c3068628%2c52774995% 2c71652993%2c73134995%2c73135011%2c73545685%2c5264 2387%2c73135007%2c3382662%2c3405088%2c53373293%2c5 0499130%2c50864607%2c79655576%2c50626654%2c5049914 4%2c50499149%2c50499141%2c52973135%2c50499120%2c51 400742%2c50626646%2c50626600%2c50626631|0&id=3426951)


It is funny that Mongols are literally translated as big, great ones. The word Bolsheviks has the similar meaning.

Egorka
04-04-2008, 02:39 AM
Mongolian hordes put stolen bicycles to military use.

http://www.jamd.com/image/g/50779873?partner=Google&epmid=1

Eahhh! And note the battle drum and the horn that the Mongolian horde is using to evoke the mighty shadow spirits before the battle. Spooky stuff... :neutral:

Egorka
04-04-2008, 02:41 AM
It is funny that Mongols are literally translated as big, great ones. The word Bolsheviks has the similar meaning.

Kato, the life it self in fact is just one huge conspiracy against itself. :)

Chevan
04-04-2008, 02:56 AM
Eahhh! And note the battle drum and the horn that the Mongolian horde is using to evoke the mighty shadow spirits before the battle. Spooky stuff... :neutral:

And call the wild syberian bears for the help.....

Nickdfresh
04-04-2008, 04:21 AM
Ha Ha Ha
Excellent collection of photos( i have never seen it befor):)
Now we know for sure that Germans girls prefered the mongols instead the allies soldiers.
This is not surprising ,if keep in mind the fact that the Goebels propoganda PRed them as super/mega sexy heroes , who ready "to make love" with everything that move.Even the 80 years grannies:):D
The allies soldiers were chikens in comparition with soviet ones in this aspect:)


I thought Soviets were Allied soldiers...

And, should you really trivialize mass-rapings like this? And not all of the rape victims were women...

Chevan
04-04-2008, 05:20 AM
I thought Soviets were Allied soldiers...

Really?
So why mst Churchill had ordered to develop the plan "Unthinkble" to attack the "ally" Nick?
From of pure humanism?
Its not me to tell you about:)


And, should you really trivialize mass-rapings like this? And not all of the rape victims were women...

Yea some of victims were the mens:)
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

Nickdfresh
04-04-2008, 06:41 AM
Really?
So why mst Churchill had ordered to develop the plan "Unthinkble" to attack the "ally" Nick?
From of pure humanism?
Its not me to tell you about:)


Well, that Churchill could be a tad silly at times. But "Unthinkable" was just contingency planning, which is hardly unusual. And I'm sure the benevolent Stalin never, ever had the Red Army draw up War plans against the West prior to the end of WWII?


Yea some of victims were the mens:)
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

Actually, I believe in Beaver.:) Who also documents German atrocities against the Soviets in the book "The Battle for Stalingrad," which I recently picked up, I presume?

And of course I believe it without any doubts. Nor do I doubt that Goebbels is culpable in the rapes because he helped start the cycle...

Rising Sun*
04-04-2008, 07:05 AM
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

Goebbels wasn't around to witness what happened after May 1945.

For a well researched and referenced account, there's about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark's The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.

There was a long history of Soviet rapes, often followed by murder of the victims, in Germany, and east of it as the Soviets advanced (a serious problem in Hungary, from memory), and they were still a problem as late as 1947. They weren't representative of all Soviet soldiers but reflected the attitudes or poor leadership in some units and formations, to marshal level, and going right up to Stalin until he realised that alienating the potentially productive civilian population in some areas by ****ing them to death wasn't in the USSR's interests.

Like it or not, some Soviet soldiers and units were just raping and pillaging for a couple of years in Berlin and there are documented accounts of Soviets raping very young girls, aged twelve for sure but I think down to eight or nine, and women in their eighties.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.

Chevan
04-04-2008, 07:12 AM
Well, that Churchill could be a tad silly at times. But "Unthinkable" was just contingency planning, which is hardly unusual. And I'm sure the benevolent Stalin never, ever had the Red Army draw up War plans against the West prior to the end of WWII?

So try to find this mythical plan for us dear Nick.
If you can:)


Actually, I believe in Beaver.:) Who also documents German atrocities against the Soviets in the book "The Battle for Stalingrad," which I recently picked up, I presume?

This is not "Stalingrad" but "Berlin 1945:downfall" that i recently have read also.
Where BEvoour tell about "hupotetic" Stalins plans toward west.
But it was his menthal conclusions- not a "documents".


And of course I believe it without any doubts. Nor do I doubt that Goebbels is culpable in the rapes because he helped start the cycle...
But i still see a serious objections.
Don't forget the book of historians there are just a versions.
For instance the so called "historian" Resun/Suvorov wrote a utter bul..t but many in west still believe him:)

Egorka
04-04-2008, 07:15 AM
For a well researched and referenced account, there's about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark's The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.
Goes in to my reading Queue after the Resun's "Ledokol" and Doctor Goebels diary 1941.


These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.
Yes. Those cases were numerous. But again, you can call me whatever but for me it makes difference to know if it was 20K, 200K or 2000K rape victims.
Obviously we will never know the number but we should try to comprehend the scale. Because the scale of the events tells us something about the what it was like back than.

Nickdfresh
04-04-2008, 07:22 AM
So try to find this mythical plan for us dear Nick.
If you can:)

I've read the plan as I posted in a thread about it if you recall. And I said "contigency" meaning it was not a definitive plan meant to be carried out like a hypothetical "what if."

I never said it didn't exist...


This is not "Stalingrad" but "Berlin 1945:downfall" that i recently have read also.
Where BEvoour tell about "hupotetic" Stalins plans toward west.
But it was his menthal conclusions- not a "documents".

But i still see a serious objections.
Don't forget the book of historians there are just a versions.
For instance the so called "historian" Resun/Suvorov wrote a utter bul..t but many in west still believe him:)

I never said "mental" figments of Churchill, I said "war plans." Every country has hypothetical war plans to what they perceive as potential threats. A Canadian Army officer even wrote up a plan to invade the United States as late as after WWI, with the help of the Royal Navy. Does that mean these plans were seriously considered as a course of action? No...

And I'd bet the Soviets had a similar war plan to keep going West, if they felt threatened enough. And if the US-UK did attack the Soviet Union, they would have encounter a hell of a lot of their own equipment types and materials..

My point is that Beaver wrote both books and is not some mere Nazi-apologist, crackpot **** like David Irving. He has documented the atrocities on all sides and cannot be distilled down to some political agendist out to defame the Red Army --as you infer. I suggest you read RS*'s post above carefully...

Chevan
04-04-2008, 07:29 AM
Goebbels wasn't around to witness what happened after May 1945.

For a well researched and referenced account, there's about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark's The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.

There was a long history of Soviet rapes, often followed by murder of the victims, in Germany, and east of it as the Soviets advanced (a serious problem in Hungary, from memory), and they were still a problem as late as 1947. They weren't representative of all Soviet soldiers but reflected the attitudes or poor leadership in some units and formations, to marshal level, and going right up to Stalin until he realised that alienating the potentially productive civilian population in some areas by ****ing them to death wasn't in the USSR's interests.

It was a special order of Stavka where the Crimes agains civils population have been persecuted.
This order have been published in the aipril of 1945 befor BAttle of Berlin my friend.
BTW many soldiers have been judged by military tribunal for that.
So this is wrong that Command did nothing.
They did.


Like it or not, some Soviet soldiers and units were just raping and pillaging for a couple of years in Berlin and there are documented accounts of Soviets raping very young girls, aged twelve for sure but I think down to eight or nine, and women in their eighties.

raping the childrens?
And why their parents did not call for the soviet civil authorities?
As i know after 1946 there were civils authrorities in the Berlin.
So today we could find a hundred or "cases" and yet invent a millions..This is not a matter.
Besides how could you prove that girls did not do it voluntary , say for food?
You as as a lawyer should know to prove the crime this is not enough just tell of victims.


These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.
But soviets at least did not fire them by hundreds a thousands in firestorms.
So stop portray a "human" allies :)They did other nasy things.
But we could not cll them all as a "criminals" right?

Chevan
04-04-2008, 07:47 AM
I've read the plan as I posted in a thread about it if you recall. And I said "contigency" meaning it was not a definitive plan meant to be carried out like a hypothetical "what if."

I never said it didn't exist...

What a thread about it?
Could you link this thread please.


I never said "mental" figments of Churchill, I said "war plans." Every country has hypothetical war plans to what they perceive as potential threats. A Canadian Army officer even wrote up a plan to invade the United States as late as after WWI, with the help of the Royal Navy. Does that mean these plans were seriously considered as a course of action? No...

Well you 've forund the equal example:)
The Churchill and Canadian officer:)


And I'd bet the Soviets had a similar war plan to keep going West, if they felt threatened enough. And if the US-UK did attack the Soviet Union, they would have encounter a hell of a lot of their own equipment types and materials..

Unfortinatelly my friend you again repeat the old....
You did not even read the plan Unthinkable, have i guessed?
Becouse there is the REAL ANALYSYS of the military situation in the Europe in the 1945.
The SOVIETS could physically, military and any other sense could NOT attack FIRST:)
Be a good Nick, just admit my arguments.


My point is that Beaver wrote both books and is not some mere Nazi-apologist, crackpot **** like David Irving. He has documented the atrocities on all sides and cannot be distilled down to some political agendist out to defame the Red Army --as you infer. I suggest you read RS*'s post above carefully...
You have missed.
The BEvour is very popular authors, and as any such lewel authror he care makes their book interesting and truly fascinating.
Besides he used the works of other historiand (just look at the end of the book) he usially didn't work with first documents.
Trying to make his book interesting- he focused on what people in West LIKE to read.
So he just repeat the OLD clishes in the "new stories".And He repeats the old legends.
His books could seems for you, westerns, as actually Original and Documented.
But i personally found a mistake in his book "Stalingrad" .
When he wrote epicode about Battle for Grain Factory, he used the memours of Soviet authros-veteran of that battle.
But he essentially distorted this events.Becouse i've read the original book - i found out a serious mistakes in Bevoor's book.This is just a little episode of how Bevoor write his books.
He is talented authors, however hes talent is appearing in literature rather then in real history.
SO the OLD NAzy bu..t about 80-years grammas who have been raped by soviets - has been repeated by the Bevoour in his book Berlin.Downfall:)
What a great historian:)

Rising Sun*
04-04-2008, 07:54 AM
Goes in to my reading Queue after the Resun's "Ledokol" and Doctor Goebels diary 1941.

As you obviously know more about this book by not reading it than I do after having read it, could you tell me why it is deserving of such contempt?

Rising Sun*
04-04-2008, 08:00 AM
Yes. Those cases were numerous. But again, you can call me whatever but for me it makes difference to know if it was 20K, 200K or 2000K rape victims.

Obviously we will never know the number but we should try to comprehend the scale. Because the scale of the events tells us something about the what it was like back than.

If you read Naimark, you would get a very good idea of the scale. From primary sources. To the extent that such things were documented at all.

And it might surprise you.

Nickdfresh
04-04-2008, 01:30 PM
What a thread about it?
Could you link this thread please.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5639


Well you 've forund the equal example:)
The Churchill and Canadian officer:)

Yes, as they were both just as likely...


Unfortinatelly my friend you again repeat the old....
You did not even read the plan Unthinkable, have i guessed?
Becouse there is the REAL ANALYSYS of the military situation in the Europe in the 1945.
The SOVIETS could physically, military and any other sense could NOT attack FIRST:)
Be a good Nick, just admit my arguments.

Um, really? The Soviets outnumbered the Allies in some key areas...

And attack by either side after such a war was highly unlikely...


You have missed.
The BEvour is very popular authors, and as any such lewel authror he care makes their book interesting and truly fascinating.
Besides he used the works of other historiand (just look at the end of the book) he usially didn't work with first documents.
Trying to make his book interesting- he focused on what people in West LIKE to read.
So he just repeat the OLD clishes in the "new stories".And He repeats the old legends.
His books could seems for you, westerns, as actually Original and Documented.
But i personally found a mistake in his book "Stalingrad" .
When he wrote epicode about Battle for Grain Factory, he used the memours of Soviet authros-veteran of that battle.
But he essentially distorted this events.Becouse i've read the original book - i found out a serious mistakes in Bevoor's book.This is just a little episode of how Bevoor write his books.
He is talented authors, however hes talent is appearing in literature rather then in real history.
SO the OLD NAzy bu..t about 80-years grammas who have been raped by soviets - has been repeated by the Bevoour in his book Berlin.Downfall:)
What a great historian:)

Oh, okay. So hardly anyone was raped in Berlin? Got'cha. :rolleyes: This is getting tedious. So I guess the only ones that ever suffered in the correct death tolls according to generally accepted history are the Russian people and the Germans killed by "evil" Western Allied bombing, eh Chevan?

So, how exactly did Beevor "distort" those events? Specifically? As I am perusing my previously unopened edition, I notice that one of his primary sources is the Soviet military dispatches written by one Alekandr Shcherbakov, "the head of the political department of the Red Army in Moscow." Probably a capitalist subversive and fascist agent! :mad:

Egorka
04-05-2008, 02:15 AM
As you obviously know more about this book by not reading it than I do after having read it, could you tell me why it is deserving of such contempt?
I said what I ment. I will try to read it after "Ledokol" (started yesterday) and Geobel's diary 1941 which I ordered in the library. I read Geobes diary for 1944-45 - very fascinating! Can recommend.

I had to read your post several times in a row until I realised why you replied this way. :)

Rising Sun*
04-05-2008, 02:58 AM
I said what I ment. I will try to read it after "Ledokol" (started yesterday) and Geobel's diary 1941 which I ordered in the library. I read Geobes diary for 1944-45 - very fascinating! Can recommend.

I had to read your post several times in a row until I realised why you replied this way. :)

I am sorry.

I thought you were dismissing it as an unreliable source, which I think you've worked out is what motivated my comments.

I'd be interested in your comments once you've read Naimark. I might need to borrow it from the library to refresh my mind.

Egorka
04-05-2008, 03:52 PM
I thought you were dismissing it as an unreliable source, which I think you've worked out is what motivated my comments.
Actually tell me please what was your motivation.
Are you finding both "Ledokol" and Geobels diary unworthy of reading? Why?

Rising Sun*
04-06-2008, 07:01 AM
Actually tell me please what was your motivation.
Are you finding both "Ledokol" and Geobels diary unworthy of reading? Why?

I simply misunderstood you.

It's one of the problems of typing words in cyberspace without the context and intonation and expression that occurs in face to face discussion.

Chevan
04-06-2008, 11:43 PM
Um, really? The Soviets outnumbered the Allies in some key areas...
They still critically depend of the fuel and alluminium supplies( moe then 50%).So the USSR was in worsten situation then the allies.
the single chance was to attack the Irn and cut off the oild fields, but this was unpossible in case of creat allies offensive in the Europe.The soviets has no enought troops in the Middle Est.


And attack by either side after such a war was highly unlikely...

Not so unlikely.
If fact tat this moment USSR was MOST volnerable.
And USA was the nuclear monopolist- so i just wonder why they don't attack the soviets. This is entire miracle that Stalin could hold the pease. Although the in the CHina were are already fighting.


Oh, okay. So hardly anyone was raped in Berlin? Got'cha. :rolleyes: This is getting tedious. So I guess the only ones that ever suffered in the correct death tolls according to generally accepted history are the Russian people and the Germans killed by "evil" Western Allied bombing, eh Chevan?

How have you guessed Nick?:) :rolleyes:
In the USA the woman are reping EVERY 2 hours according statistick.Why nobody here don't cry about situation?
You know better tham me that in USA the entire porn-industry exists when the "voluntaries " tenageers ( mostly from poorest stratas) are used for shoting of porn. The handreds of thousands pay money to watch it in internet.
Why Bevoour wrote nothing about it?
The sexual context has been very vivid expressed in the Aby-Ghraib photos ( we all see the it:)).
As well as it was expressed in the Vietnam.
Does we should to conclude the WHOLE American Army in Iraq is the bunch of sexual Maniacks?
It seems yes:rolleyes:


So, how exactly did Beevor "distort" those events? Specifically? As I am perusing my previously unopened edition, I notice that one of his primary sources is the Soviet military dispatches written by one Alekandr Shcherbakov, "the head of the political department of the Red Army in Moscow." Probably a capitalist subversive and fascist agent! :mad:
Now you see , that i/m right.
Bevoour NEVER worked with initial Soviet/russians archives.
He ONLY used the soviets memours for its own purposes, somethims distorting the events according his agenda.
And did Alekandr Shcherbakov tell him about raping 80-years gremmas?
I strongly doubt:)
In fact the Bevours's views have been formed during the Cold war.
He use in their books the fascinating mixture of GErmans post-war rumours and allies propogand.
He just join it in one interesting context ( not so interesting as the D.Irving of course;))

Nickdfresh
04-07-2008, 05:56 AM
...

How have you guessed Nick?:) :rolleyes:
In the USA the woman are reping EVERY 2 hours according statistick.Why nobody here don't cry about situation?

Who says I haven't? And what does this have to do with anything? I didn't start this topic nor have I ever minimized the atrocities of any nation including my own...


You know better tham me that in USA the entire porn-industry exists when the "voluntaries " tenageers ( mostly from poorest stratas) are used for shoting of porn. The handreds of thousands pay money to watch it in internet.
Why Bevoour wrote nothing about it?
The sexual context has been very vivid expressed in the Aby-Ghraib photos ( we all see the it:)).
As well as it was expressed in the Vietnam.
Does we should to conclude the WHOLE American Army in Iraq is the bunch of sexual Maniacks?
It seems yes:rolleyes:

Oh, so it's all America's fault and no one should ever discuss topics embarrassing to the Soviet Union because the porn industry is located in the US?

Well, actually, the majority of child pornography comes from Russia, since it is one of the few nations of the world with no age of consent, which is entirely appalling...


Now you see , that i/m right.
Bevoour NEVER worked with initial Soviet/russians archives.

It says on the first three pages in his book on Stalingrad he did, so why wouldn't he have done the same for the Berlin one?


He ONLY used the soviets memours for its own purposes, somethims distorting the events according his agenda.
And did Alekandr Shcherbakov tell him about raping 80-years gremmas?
I strongly doubt:)
In fact the Bevours's views have been formed during the Cold war.
He use in their books the fascinating mixture of GErmans post-war rumours and allies propogand.
He just join it in one interesting context ( not so interesting as the D.Irving of course;))

LOL So, again, all accusations of excesses of Soviet atrocities are lies, the Western Allies are evil baby killers, and any historian that says differently is a liar?

Brilliant! :D That seems to be your recurring theme here, and it is getting old...


Who is fighting the Cold War again?

Egorka
04-07-2008, 07:05 AM
... Russia, since it is one of the few nations of the world with no age of consent, which is entirely appalling...
You think?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png/800px-Age_of_Consent.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

Nickdfresh
04-07-2008, 01:49 PM
You think?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png/800px-Age_of_Consent.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

Actually, I what I was thinking is that child pornography isn't in itself illegal in Russia, which makes it a major source of child pornography. At least as of a couple of years ago:

http://www.buffalonews.com/339/story/182863.html

Chevan
04-07-2008, 11:56 PM
Well, actually, the majority of child pornography comes from Russia, since it is one of the few nations of the world with no age of consent, which is entirely appalling...

The majiorty of child porn come from Asia- you are wrong.
But this is the USA who orders it shares it ower the world via the different chennals including privite internet sites.
Besides in the USSR the porn industry has not been at all.


It says on the first three pages in his book on Stalingrad he did, so why wouldn't he have done the same for the Berlin one?

Oh year - so what was on the first three pages in his book?
Just do not tell me that this is statistical and personal datas from archives.
He usially use just the mempours of other authors. The other - just invent according his agenda.


LOL So, again, all accusations of excesses of Soviet atrocities are lies, the Western Allies are evil baby killers, and any historian that says differently is a liar?

Nick you worry me!!
I/m try to prove you that NOT all of the Soviets were killers and maniaks.
This is just primitive banaliity that has been invented by the Goebbels:)
You try blame me in other banality- the western allies were the evil.
Where did i say it?
Don't be a ........


Brilliant! :D That seems to be your recurring theme here, and it is getting old...

Nothing a brillians in you naive transfulness for the rusophobian blunder.
Egorka has start this thread to check the ability of members here accept the documents critically.
This photo is not a crimes at all , besides this is even not Berlin 1945 as it try to portray the propogandists( the Rising Sun proved it clearly).
You just make the D.Irving "views" actual ,but from the other side:)


Who is fighting the Cold War again?
You...
I was just kidding , but you take it serious.
This is what bother me LOL

Egorka
04-08-2008, 03:18 AM
Actually, I what I was thinking is that child pornography isn't in itself illegal in Russia, which makes it a major source of child pornography. At least as of a couple of years ago:
http://www.buffalonews.com/339/story/182863.html
right. There has not been a separate legislation about child pornography. There is general article in the criminal law about the "Illegal circulation of pornography". This one implies child pornography too. The problem is that it is not very specific and therefore allows for some holes in the law. The max sentece the offenders can face is just 2 years of prison.

The plans now are to introduce procecution of the viewer and those who poseses the materials.
In Europ, IIRC, this was inmplemented just 10 years ago or so. So Russia is not that far behind consideirng that child pornography is strongly linked to Internet which in it's turn had a slow start in Russia.
In the USSR time being a gay was illegal and could lead to a prison sentense (I do not know though how many people were actually procecuted for that) let alone pornographic materials. That is not to say that pornography was nonexistant at all.

Egorka
04-08-2008, 03:56 AM
Some more pictures from "Bildarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz (http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/webgate_cms/)" of the RKKA (Mongolian Horde) in Berlin:

http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=35ac21313915b87256588ecd1ef4a6ac&IMGID=30017147
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=328f16ac79a2dd06e41b212f98130f30&IMGID=30011247
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&SECTION=PREVRESULT&IMGID=30011248
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=e6fd852d2058b6901c3bc20a9fbade06&IMGID=30014149
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=e6fd852d2058b6901c3bc20a9fbade06&IMGID=30014164
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=0d612d8792d3e3a99e4cddbfffc31583&IMGID=30014807
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=0d612d8792d3e3a99e4cddbfffc31583&IMGID=30015054
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=b5368f2fc35ee6e6134aa57cb0870512&IMGID=30015096
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=932359ad50d81cd09eefda52da26f2dd&IMGID=30015131
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=ab806c2e4dcbafffb9b5439fdaeda9e6&IMGID=30016347
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=2cc7b470476b9e7536a4bc8d109a3b62&IMGID=30017148

And here is the american barbarian horde members taking advantage og german women:

http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=fc2101035f813109e56b36fc5764bc2f&IMGID=30016375
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=fc2101035f813109e56b36fc5764bc2f&IMGID=30016376
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=ab806c2e4dcbafffb9b5439fdaeda9e6&IMGID=30012270


And here is the winner!
The original photo of the bike stealing scene:
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&SECTION=PREVRESULT&IMGID=30005321
The title: "Sowjetischer Soldat versucht, einer deutschen Frau das Fahrrad zu entwenden"

So... the Soviet representative of an occupational army is attempting to steal a bike from a German woman in a broad day light!
The woman is not giving up to the barbarian. The grave conflict is looming...
The the German public around is not very scared are they?

Maybe, just maybe... the Germans in Berlin were not afraid of those barbarians as much as you might think?

What do you think?

Nickdfresh
04-08-2008, 04:54 AM
The majiorty of child porn come from Asia- you are wrong.
But this is the USA who orders it shares it ower the world via the different chennals including privite internet sites.
Besides in the USSR the porn industry has not been at all.

LOL Um, your sources, please?

And there was plenty of endemic corruption in the USSR


Oh year - so what was on the first three pages in his book?
Just do not tell me that this is statistical and personal datas from archives.
He usially use just the mempours of other authors. The other - just invent according his agenda.

His "agenda" has been corroborated, including the conception and execution of Soviet orders to combat the problem...


Nick you worry me!!
I/m try to prove you that NOT all of the Soviets were killers and maniaks.

Actually, you try to make it as if NONE of the Soviets were maniacs and killers, and that it is everyone else who is guilty and wrong while the Soviets were purely victims...


This is just primitive banaliity that has been invented by the Goebbels:)
You try blame me in other banality- the western allies were the evil.
Where did i say it?
Don't be a ........

Goebbels was dead when most of this took place. BTW, he also scathingly attacked Allied bombing, did he just make that up, or exaggerate the extent of it, too?


Nothing a brillians in you naive transfulness for the rusophobian blunder.
Egorka has start this thread to check the ability of members here accept the documents critically.

You mean a couple of photographs means that something didn't happen? You mean since they didn't bother to photograph the rapes, they never happened?


This photo is not a crimes at all , besides this is even not Berlin 1945 as it try to portray the propogandists( the Rising Sun proved it clearly).

Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...


You just make the D.Irving "views" actual ,but from the other side:)

Which proves what a sycophant you are since you sung his praises...


You...
I was just kidding , but you take it serious.
This is what bother me LOL

:rolleyes:

BTW, what happened in these photos?:

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/29alemanas.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/30Praga.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3c13916v.jpg

Nickdfresh
04-08-2008, 04:55 AM
An article on Beevor and the reaction from Russia:


Book On Red Army Rapes In
Berlin Angers Russians
6-4-2


(Reuters) - A new book about the fall of Berlin is angering Russians, who feel widespread pride in their victory, by describing the Red Army's brutal conduct during the final days of World War Two, including gang rapes.

In an interview, Antony Beevor, British author of the best-selling "Berlin: The Downfall, 1945", said the controversy stems in part from Russia's failure to come to terms with its Soviet totalitarian past. Germany, the war's loser, has long dealt with its Nazi crimes. "Germany really started to face up to the horrors of its past after it had an economic miracle," he said. "Russia hasn't had an economic miracle yet and it will take quite a long time even after it does before it starts to see things less in terms of the heroism of the Great Patriotic War. "When you're economically humiliated you hang on to that moment of great pride even more so and refuse to contemplate any dark side to it."

Alongside the rape of an estimated two million German women, more than half of them gang-raped, by Soviet soldiers, Beevor's research shows thousands of Ukrainian and Polish women were raped as the Red Army advanced westwards to end Hitler's reign. "By the time the Red Army reached Berlin, rape had evolved into treating women as carnal booty," Beevor said.

"For me, the most striking or horrific discovery from a Russian point of view was that Soviet troops raped young Russian and Ukrainian women, because that undermines any justification of Red Army behaviour on the grounds of revenge," he added.

Josef Stalin deployed 2.5 million troops, 7,500 aircraft, 6,250 tanks and 41,600 guns in the Battle of Berlin. The war victory - at a staggering cost of 27 million dead - is perhaps the only part of Soviet history that all Russians see with pride. Their May 9 Victory Day anniversary of the end of the war remains a major national holiday.

Moscow's ambassador in London, Grigory Karasin, described the book, which has yet to be translated into Russian, as "an act of blasphemy" and "a case of slander".

Beevor said: "What the Russians had not realised was the bulk of the material came from Russian archives. It's hard to say it's slander or to say it was all taken out of context." Beevor is a former army officer who has written a number of history books and works of fiction. His breakthrough work was "Stalingrad", a harrowing description of the one of the most brutal battles in history.

An incident in 1943, when a Red Army soldier taunted German prisoners in the ruins of Stalingrad with the words "This is how Berlin is going to look", inspired "Berlin: The Downfall, 1945".

Beevor received many letters from German rape victims saying they were glad their story was being told at last. "All of them say in relief: 'None of us dared tell our story because we didn't think anyone would believe us. You've now told the story.' That was extremely encouraging," he said.

He said it was German men who had suppressed the subject. "For them the worst humiliation was that their wives had been raped and they simply could not talk about it, they forbade their wives from talking about it and it became a taboo." Beevor says the story of the rapes, while important, has attracted more attention than he would have hoped.

Nearly 80,000 Russian soldiers died and more than a quarter of a million were wounded in the fight for Berlin. He said it was vital to understand the suffering of Russian soldiers at the hands of both the Germans and their own commanders. "The last chapters are among the saddest - that those people who survived the war thinking they were going to go back and be treated as heroes then found life was very hard to fit into."

http://www.rense.com/general25/angers.htm

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 06:34 AM
Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...


Phew!

Initially I thought denier referred to the measure of fineness in ladies' stockings, from a long time ago, and that you were accusing Chevan & Co of being, well, you know, a bit fond of ladies' lingerie, although I'm sure they'd look nice in them. :D

Then I realised you were talking about denial.

The evidence I've seen, for which I've quoted a carefully researched and referenced source earlier, indicates that rape by Soviets was a major problem in Soviet occupied territories and especially Germany.

As also stated in my earlier post, that evidence also shows that it was not universal conduct by Soviet troops but by some, which in turn indicated problems in leadership and attitude in certain formations and units, which in part devolved from Stalin's brutal attitudes to the issue.

I'm not asserting that all Soviets were sub-human beasts in Berlin etc, but there is plenty of evidence that many of them were so far as rape and other, often related (notably murdering the victim), crimes went.

There is also evidence that some Soviets, especially officers, tried to stop such conduct, which contradicts any notion that all Soviets were mad rapists.

But there is too much evidence to reject as fanciful claims that many Soviet troops ran amok in Berlin and other occupied territories and that rape was a significant part of their crimes.

As with non-Soviet Allied troops in other occupied areas, it was probably the REMFs rather than the fighting troops who were worst.

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 07:07 AM
As I'm too lazy to type out slabs of text from Naimark's book, here's an internet copy and paste that covers some of what I'd say, with references.


Subject: re 6219-Beevor/Fall of Berlin
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002

Dear David:

I’m writing you regarding an excerpt from Antony Beevor’s book “Berlin: The Downfall 1945” which appeared in “The Guardian” on May 1, 2002 (published on your web site on May 2, 2002). I am glad that atrocities of the Soviet troops in 1944-45 have finally attracted attention of the public.

However, this is not the first time that the rape and pillage on a mass scale by Soviet soldiers in the “liberated” parts of Eastern Europe and occupied Germany was described. Several years ago a detailed analysis of such atrocities was given in Norman Naimark’s book “The Russians in Germany. A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949” [1]. As for memoirs, it is emotionally difficult to read some of them, especially about East Prussia [2].

I am familiar mainly with some memoirs about events in Budapest. Practically every book written by Hungarian Holocaust survivors who witnessed the Soviet “liberation” contains descriptions of the looting, rape, and murder. The memoirs by Lars Berg, a Swedish diplomat who headed a department within the Swedish Legation in Budapest and who worked with Raoul Wallenberg, gives very impressive details [3]. What makes this particular memoir unusual is that Soviet officials confirmed at the diplomatic level one of his descriptions – the rape of a woman servant at the Swedish Legation.

I feel that Antony Beevor missed two important points in the excerpt. First, that the atrocities were ignored by the Communist Party Leader and Commander-in-Chief Josef Stalin himself. It is well known that when the Yugoslav Communists complained to Stalin about the atrocities, Stalin told one of the Yugoslavs, Milovan Djilas: “Can’t [you] understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?” Stalin held the same opinion about atrocities in East Prussia: “We lecture our soldiers too much, let them have some initiative” [4].

Second, there were some extremely courageous Soviet officers who protested against the atrocities. Such protests were almost suicidal in the environment of the Soviet army. I personally knew two of these former officers. Both were Jewish (by origin) and, of course, were not the Nazi sympathizers. They were decent human beings in inhuman circumstances. Both were accused of “slandering the Soviet Army,” convicted and spent years in the Gulag. One of them, Lev Kopelev, worked for a while as an imprisoned technical scientist with Alexander Solzhenitsyn at the secret laboratory “Marfino” [5]. Later he became a well-known dissident writer and described “Marfino” in his memoirs [6]. The second, geneticist Vladimir Efroimson, was found “guilty” of two crimes—in 1945, he reported atrocities he witnessed, and in 1947, he protested against the pseudo-scientist Trofim Lysenko, who was supported by the Communist Party and Stalin himself (there is more about the Efroimson case in my book “The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science” [7]).

.....


I belong to the generation of Soviet kids who listened to the stories of victorious Soviet soldiers after they came back to the Soviet Union from the defeated Germany. However, I do remember hearing some veterans brag about atrocities they committed in Germany. Hopefully, the understanding of the past may eventually raise a wide international condemnation of the present behavior of grandsons of the Soviet WWII soldiers in Chechnya which is desperately needed.

Vadim Birstein,

Author of “The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science”
(Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 2001)
331 West 57th Street, #159
New York, NY 10019
[email protected]

[1] Naimark, Norman M., The Russians in Germany. A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949 (Cambridge (MA): The Belknap Press, 1995), pp. 69-140.

[2] Some data are available on the Internet. See, for instance, an essay “The Expulsion” by a son of a Swedish attaché in Berlin, Eric Edelstam (http://www.wordsandart.com/forums/viewtopic.php?TopicID=4)

[3] Berg, Lars G., The Book That Disappeared: What Happened in Budapest (New York: Vantage Press, 1990), pp. 55, 144-156, 160-162, 193-199.

[4] Djilas, Milovan, Conversations with Stalin, trans. Michael Petrovich (New York: Harcourt Brace, 1962), pp. 88-89, 95, 101).

[5] Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr, The First Circle (New York: Harper and Row, 1968).

[6] Kopelev, Lev, Ease My Sorrow. A Memoir, trans. from the Russian by Antonina W. Bouis (New York: Random House, 1983).

[7] Birstein, Vadim J., The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science (Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 2001), pp. 272-276.

[8] Politkovskaya, Anna, A Dirty War. A Russian Reporter in Chechnya, trans. from the Russian and edited by John Crowfoot (London: The Harvill Press, 2001).
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6225-9.cfm

I expect that Birstein will be derided by some as a commentator whose views don't deserve respect, having been a dissident member of the Russian Academy of Sciences who went to America.

Nickdfresh
04-08-2008, 07:13 AM
Phew!

Initially I thought denier referred to the measure of fineness in ladies' stockings, from a long time ago, and that you were accusing Chevan & Co of being, well, you know, a bit fond of ladies' lingerie, although I'm sure they'd look nice in them. :D

Then I realised you were talking about denial.

The evidence I've seen, for which I've quoted a carefully researched and referenced source earlier, indicates that rape by Soviets was a major problem in Soviet occupied territories and especially Germany.

As also stated in my earlier post, that evidence also shows that it was not universal conduct by Soviet troops but by some, which in turn indicated problems in leadership and attitude in certain formations and units, which in part devolved from Stalin's brutal attitudes to the issue.

I'm not asserting that all Soviets were sub-human beasts in Berlin etc, but there is plenty of evidence that many of them were so far as rape and other, often related (notably murdering the victim), crimes went.

There is also evidence that some Soviets, especially officers, tried to stop such conduct, which contradicts any notion that all Soviets were mad rapists.

But there is too much evidence to reject as fanciful claims that many Soviet troops ran amok in Berlin and other occupied territories and that rape was a significant part of their crimes.

As with non-Soviet Allied troops in other occupied areas, it was probably the REMFs rather than the fighting troops who were worst.


I totally agree.

I've never stated in any way shape or form that all or even a majority of Soviet soldiers were rapist monsters. Nor have I ever had the delusions that this issue was limited to the Soviet conquest of the areas of Poland to Berlin and the eastern part of Germany. There are in fact documentations of mass rapes conducted by numbers of American soldiers in a couple of incidents in North Africa in Rick Atkinson's "An Army at Dawn." So are his accusations false because he failed to find "official documentations" on it in US archives? (most of his sources came from French Gendarme and documented complaints of the Free French gov't in exile after some US troops began to rape not only North African women, but French and Jewish women as well)...

But for certain posters, the very same ones that love to play up and highlight the horrors of strategic bombing, this is completely disingenuous to say the least. You can't just cherry-pick which atrocities you believe in and which ones are hoaxes or are widely exaggerated out of false (national) pride. It is insulting, inflammatory, and completely disingenuous and contrary to any rational discussion on WWII. You can't simply pick which anti-Allied propaganda strand that Goebbels took as I've seen many of his arguments against the Western Allies as fire-bombing monsters repeated here. But does the fact that he was the chief Nazi propagandist discredit everything he said? Or are we going to pick and choose which one serves our interest based on a wider web-agenda or apologist arguments and insecurities?

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 08:27 AM
There are in fact documentations of mass rapes conducted by numbers of American soldiers in a couple of incidents in North Africa in Rick Atkinson's "An Army at Dawn." So are his accusations false because he failed to find "official documentations" on it in US archives? (most of his sources came from French Gendarme and documented complaints of the Free French gov't in exile after some US troops began to rape not only North African women, but French and Jewish women as well)...


Similarly, Naimark quotes German police reports for some of his evidence about Berlin / Germany, but the German police hit a brick wall when they tried to go into Soviet camps etc after offenders.

As for Allied troops, there were some serious problems with REMFs in Normandy, and by today's politically correct standards an unpalatble preponderance of rapes by American Negro (which is what they were called then) soldiers in occupied areas. Some evidence of this is in David Irving's The War Between the Generals (written when he was still doing some sound history) which happens to be on the internet (or I wouldn't have typed it all out)

Capital letter groups relate to dates or numbers (no idea why that happens on a paste) which can be seen in original text in the link.


A number of the combat troops in Normandy carried their battle
psychosis over into the rear areas. Foreigners were foreigners, to many of
them, whether French or German or Italian. An ordeal began for the
French who had stayed behind in Normandy and Cherbourg to welcome
their liberators. They were liable to be vandalized, robbed, raped, mur-
dered. Indeed, the behaviour of GIs throughout liberated Europe was
causing apprehension in Washington. The Joint Chiefs reviewed a report
from Rome too that conditions now were worse than when the Germans
had been there; said Admiral Leahy: ìA situation which a United States
official can so describe should not be permitted to develop.î Eisenhower,
his desk already crowded with tactical and administrative problems, found
the whole business tedious. It involved him in endless sessions with the
theatre judge advocate, Brigadier General Edward C. Betts. It began just
three days after D-day, when he was confronted with the cases of two
blacks sentenced for rape and murder. It was a delicate problem, one that
loomed ever larger for the Americans, threatening to damage their image
as the worldís peacemakers, the bringers of law and order to Nazi-ravaged
Europe. Liddell Hart, visiting Caen later, would note, ìMost Frenchmen
speak of the correctness of the German Armyís behaviour. They seem par-
ticularly impressed that German soldiers were shot for incivility to women
and compare this with the American troopsí bad behaviour toward
women.

After the capture of Cherbourg the embattled armies had moved off,
leaving in their wake a wrecked French countryside and a flotsam of heart-
break. In Cherbourg itself, the first big city entered by combat troops, riots
broke out as bored GIs used their firearms indiscriminately against the
French. ìUnfortunately,î said the official report of Normandy Base Sec-
tion, ìfrom the American angle, this created an unfavourable impression
on the civilian population.î Military police battalions had to be assigned
early in August NVQQ, the situation being partially cured only by a complete
withdrawal of arms and placing all bars off limits to U.S. troops. ìUnfor-
tunately most of these undisciplined acts were caused by coloured troops,î
the report continued, ìand great efforts were made to bring this situation
under control.î During September and October the violence increased.

ìThe victims of the crime could not be brought back to life,î the report
said, ìbut the assailant could be punished. To prove to the civil population
we were doing everything possible to bring about justice, executions were
held at or near the scene of the crimes. The immediate family of the victim
and civic officials of the towns were present to see the execution.î
On August N, Eisenhower telephoned Betts for a complete report on
the number of death sentences passed on American troops: ìIím especially
anxious to see the numbers as between white and coloured troops,î he
said. But in the British sector too there were problems, and on August NM
Montgomery had to write to all three army commanders ñ Bradley, Demp-
sey, and Crerar ñ ordering them to stamp out looting of French property
which was becoming rife not only in the forward battle area but also well
outside, where the objects taken had no military use whatsoever.
By the autumn, GI morale was breaking down in the face of the wet,
the unhoped-for German resistance, the lack of furloughs, and the bad
personnel replacement system. The discipline of even some of the finest
U.S. units was cracking. The death sentences that Eisenhower now had to
review multiplied ñ Betts brought him the dossiers once a week and laid
them on his desk to read and sign. On November R, Kay Summersby, worried, recorded: ìGeneral Betts reports that disciplinary conditions in the
army are becoming bad. Many cases of rape, murder and pillage are causing complaints by the French, Dutch, etc. E. is assigning several officers to
make a complete investigation and report personally to him. . . . E. dis-
cussed with Bedell at length the discipline of our troops, the chief of staff
has had a report which substantiated Bettsís report.î The next day Bedell
Smith was again called in. ìE. discussed with him the discipline of the NMNst
and UOnd Airborne Divisions. It is bad, numerous cases of rape, looting.
Strong measures will have to be taken. E. suggests that there should be a
public hanging, particularly in the case of rape.î Previous executions had
been inside army stockades. For the Supreme Commander to suggest
making an example of the celebrated U.S. airborne divisions by a humili-
ating public spectacle of a sort seldom seen since the nineteenth century
was an indication of the urgency of the problem.

The problem persisted. When Major General LeRoy Lutes arrived a
month later to inspect the theatre for Brehon Somervell, he wrote in his
diary: ìThe French now grumble . . . that the Americans are a more drunken and disorderly lot than the Germans and hope to see the day
when they are liberated from the Americans.î He added that the Allied
propaganda about the Germans was evidently untrue. ìI am informed the
Germans did not loot either residences, stores, or museums. In fact the
people claimed that they were meticulously treated by the Army of Occu-
pation.î By the time the campaign in Europe ended, Betts would have
noted that there was a definite correlation between the number of rapes
and murders committed by GIs during any given period and the general
combat activity of that period. ìFrom the initial landing in June NVQQ to the
middle of July the crime trend corresponded to the gradual increase in the
number of troops,î Betts would report. ìHowever, following the Saint-LÙ
breakthrough at the end of July a sharp rise in the number of cases oc-
curred, followed by a rapid decline after the stabilization of the battlefront.
. . . From the breakthrough at the Ruhr River in February NVQR until the
cessation of hostilities, the trend again shows a sudden sharp rise hardly
proportionate to the number of troops engaged.î At one stage there were
over five hundred instances of rape per month.

In all, QRQ GIs were sentenced to death by courts-martial. Many got
off the hook, but seventy were executed ñ all except one for nonmilitary
offences like rape and murder. p.211 ff at http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/WarBetween/index.html

Egorka
04-08-2008, 08:41 AM
BTW, what happened in these photos?:
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/29alemanas.jpg
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/30Praga.jpg
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3c13916v.jpg

The site where this images are located says (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm):

"Soviet Red Army lead by communist have reaped nearly 70% of German woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes."
"Marxist encouraged Red Army soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot."



Do You agree with these statements?

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 08:50 AM
The site where this images are located says (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm):

"Soviet Red Army lead by communist have reaped nearly 70% of German woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes."
"Marxist encouraged Red Army soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot."



Do You agree with these statements?

What does it matter whether I or anyone else agrees with statements on that website?

Are you putting it forward as a reliable historical source?

If so, why ask the rest of us to confirm its accuracy?

If not, why refer to it?

Egorka
04-08-2008, 08:52 AM
Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...
Which people are you talking about?

Egorka
04-08-2008, 09:02 AM
What does it matter whether I or anyone else agrees with statements on that website?
It does not. It only does matter when US reputation is at stake. No?

Are you putting it forward as a reliable historical source?I do not know. I have just seen few pages there. A bit histerical, but the subject is harsh as well.
By the way, most of the pictures are real and not faked. So in this respect it is reliable. Some of the statements are IMHO - not.

If so, why ask the rest of us to confirm its accuracy?
Because we are in a forum for the sole purpose of communicating about different, often controversial, topic. Unless I am not mistaken...

If not, why refer to it?I did not reffer to it. Nick did.

So now when I answered all of your questions, why do not you answer mine, please.

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 09:02 AM
Which people are you talking about?

Chevan. :D :D :D



http://www.andrewbeaton.com/generalimages/frank.jpg



Denier ratings http://hosieree.com/categories/Stockings.html

Egorka
04-08-2008, 09:05 AM
Chevan. :D :D :D
...

Denier ratings http://hosieree.com/categories/Stockings.html
For my taste this woman it too flat chested and seem to have too much pubic hair... see how it protrudes down there...

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 09:05 AM
It does not. It only does matter when US reputation is at stake. No?


For the US reputation at stake, see my post at #75.

Rising Sun*
04-08-2008, 09:08 AM
For my taste this woman it too flat chested and seem to have too much pubic hair... see how it protrudes down there...

Actually, they're the stockings.

Chevan's a bit over-endowed in the pubic area. :D

Nickdfresh
04-08-2008, 09:48 AM
The site where this images are located says (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm):

"Soviet Red Army lead by communist have reaped nearly 70% of German woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes."
"Marxist encouraged Red Army soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot."



Do You agree with these statements?

Statements? I was just looking at the photos...

Nickdfresh
04-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Actually, they're the stockings.

Chevan's a bit over-endowed in the pubic area. :D

Oi vay! :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcpvx2EVCpU

Chevan
04-09-2008, 01:01 AM
Actually, you try to make it as if NONE of the Soviets were maniacs and killers, and that it is everyone else who is guilty and wrong while the Soviets were purely victims...

Yes they were purely victims from the BEGINNING . 11 millions of OUR civils perished.
This is nothing even with supposed 2 millions or raped civilsin Germany , isn't it?


Goebbels was dead when most of this took place. BTW, he also scathingly attacked Allied bombing, did he just make that up, or exaggerate the extent of it, too?
No Nick , Goebbels always told the true:)
The soviet was aimed to rape and kill EVERY gegerman woman, and allies killed ONLY in Dresded 250 000 of civils for 13 hours.
What a ugly unhuman bas...ds, are not they?
I even don't know who is more HUMAN:)?
So stop to cry about raped, lets tell about killed:)


You mean a couple of photographs means that something didn't happen? You mean since they didn't bother to photograph the rapes, they never happened?

The photograpoh of rapes is the "proof" in the tribunal.
But as i said the Soviet persecuted the criminals.
To the contrast of GErmans who did not fear shot it crimes even the mass execution of Jews( we have a lot of photos) , the Soviets soldiers never shoted its REAL crimes.


Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...

RS thinks that Israel attaked the American "Liberty" SPECIALLY to involve the USA into the conflict.( the point that i/m fully agree with)
So if he is the absolute authoritet here, why did you argue with him?



:rolleyes:

BTW, what happened in these photos?:

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/29alemanas.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/30Praga.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3c13916v.jpg

Who does know?
The dozen of dead bodies on the ground?
Is this something terrible for you?
So look at this (http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresden_gallery/images/0034.jpg)
or
this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/f7/Einsatz1.jpg)
What happened in these photos?

Chevan
04-09-2008, 01:15 AM
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6225-9.cfm

I expect that Birstein will be derided by some as a commentator whose views don't deserve respect, having been a dissident member of the Russian Academy of Sciences who went to America.
Who is doubt.
The "hisrorians" like Politkovskay, Solgenitsyn , Birstein and Kopelev are the serious source for us:)
The Russian "fifth colums" is on a parade:)
I just wonder why do this glorious company forget about lovely Resun-Suvorov:)
Egorka how do you think - may be we also should use the Western "fifth colums" here as a sources?
That would be damn fascinating to post here Irving,Duke, Graft and others:)
I can post the couple of "materials" about allies atrocities in the Europe.

Egorka
04-09-2008, 02:26 AM
Statements? I was just looking at the photos...
Yes. The statements that are used to describe the very same photographs you linked to. What do you think about them?

And what's up with your answer? Have I asked something unapropriate?

Egorka
04-09-2008, 02:30 AM
That would be damn fascinating to post here Irving,Duke, Graft and others:)
I can post the couple of "materials" about allies atrocities in the Europe.
Chevan, i do not think it would be constructive thing to do...

Chevan
04-09-2008, 04:09 AM
Chevan, i do not think it would be constructive thing to do...
But why ...?
Our friend Nickdfresh seems find some the rusophobian sites as very "constructive":)
Is the statement "70% of woman have been raped" doesn't look enought constructive fro you as it looks for him?
And my mate RS also uses the our "Fifth column" as a "constructive source".
So why we should stay the White Crows in this , amazingly constructive thread?

Chevan
04-09-2008, 04:17 AM
What does it matter whether I or anyone else agrees with statements on that website?

Are you putting it forward as a reliable historical source?

If so, why ask the rest of us to confirm its accuracy?

If not, why refer to it?
Hmnnn...
So if something in this source seems not so reliable, why we should believe in other matter on this site?Or why does Nickdfresh post the matter from this "unreliable" site here?

Chevan
04-09-2008, 04:25 AM
....

But does the fact that he was the chief Nazi propagandist discredit everything he said? Or are we going to pick and choose which one serves our interest based on a wider web-agenda or apologist arguments and insecurities?
But does that fact that He as chief of NAzy propogand get you the chance selectively hear and adopt his agenda?
Why if you seriously belive that the Eastern Barbarians horde that has come to GErmany only to kill and rape everybody, and take the "documents' as a proofs - why do you deny the other "documents" about actions of alles that has been portrayed by the Goebbels also?
Why do you take it selectively?

Chevan
04-09-2008, 05:12 AM
Chevan. :D :D :D

http://www.andrewbeaton.com/generalimages/frank.jpg


:D:D;)
Don't even look simular like me (http://i26.tinypic.com/2ily976.jpg).
But probably look like Nickdfresh (http://i29.tinypic.com/t8p6l3.jpg):)
Becouse he could not prove contrary:)

Rising Sun*
04-09-2008, 05:48 AM
But why ...?
Our friend Nickdfresh seems find some the rusophobian sites as very "constructive":)
Is the statement "70% of woman have been raped" doesn't look enought constructive fro you as it looks for him?
And my mate RS also uses the our "Fifth column" as a "constructive source".
So why we should stay the White Crows in this , amazingly constructive thread?

You're just pissed off that I didn't post a nicer photo of you in stockings. :D

I would have, but you said the one you sent me by PM was just for me. :mrgreen:

Now, seriously, why do you say that Birstein isn't a reliable source?

Obviously there is an understanding that you and Egorka share about him and the other writers you mentioned that make them the Soviet equivalents of Irving, but why?

What does White Crows mean?

Egorka
04-09-2008, 06:32 AM
Now, seriously, why do you say that Birstein isn't a reliable source?
Obviously there is an understanding that you and Egorka share about him and the other writers you mentioned that make them the Soviet equivalents of Irving, but why?
What does White Crows mean?Egorka shares what? Who is Birstein?
white crow = black sheep

Rising Sun*
04-09-2008, 06:47 AM
Egorka shares what? Who is Birstein?


See my #73.

Vadim Birstein, Author of “The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science”, (Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 2001)

Nickdfresh
04-09-2008, 03:28 PM
Yes they were purely victims from the BEGINNING . 11 millions of OUR civils perished.
This is nothing even with supposed 2 millions or raped civilsin Germany , isn't it?

I don't recall saying it was...


No Nick , Goebbels always told the true:)
The soviet was aimed to rape and kill EVERY gegerman woman, and allies killed ONLY in Dresded 250 000 of civils for 13 hours.
What a ugly unhuman bas...ds, are not they?
I even don't know who is more HUMAN:)?
So stop to cry about raped, lets tell about killed:)

Okay. How about raped, then killed?

And the Soviet bombardment of Berlin killed 250,000 civilians and the wanton use of heavy artillery in urban areas by the Red Army caused many civilian casualties throughout Eastern Europe, and I have no idea where you're getting the inflated Dresden figures...

And I've never really taken Goebbel's word for anything, nor is he my source. I'm not even the one that brought him up! Nobody is citing his diary except for Egorka trying to prove some amorphous point...

BTW, I have no idea how often it needs to be stated that Goebbels was dead when these events took place...So, your point of repeatedly bringing him up is what again?


The photograpoh of rapes is the "proof" in the tribunal.
But as i said the Soviet persecuted the criminals.
To the contrast of GErmans who did not fear shot it crimes even the mass execution of Jews( we have a lot of photos) , the Soviets soldiers never shoted its REAL crimes.

The Soviets only began to restore order when things got out of hand, and no one has said that is was the entire Red Army. BTW, nobody is accusing this of only being a problem with the Red Army. But certainly, there was a penchant for looking the other way that started with Stalin...


RS thinks that Israel attaked the American "Liberty" SPECIALLY to involve the USA into the conflict.( the point that i/m fully agree with)
So if he is the absolute authoritet here, why did you argue with him?

Keep your posts on topic! This has nothing to do with it!


Who does know?
The dozen of dead bodies on the ground?
Is this something terrible for you?
So look at this (http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresden_gallery/images/0034.jpg)
or
this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/f7/Einsatz1.jpg)
What happened in these photos?

What does this have to do with German women being raped-killed by the Soviet soldiers from the postwar occupation period?

Nickdfresh
04-09-2008, 03:33 PM
Yes. The statements that are used to describe the very same photographs you linked to. What do you think about them?

And what's up with your answer? Have I asked something unapropriate?

The statements are poorly worded by what is obviously a person whose first language is not English. And I really didn't pay much attention to the statements because I think we're talking about photographs here. And, the best answer I can give is that I do believe the pictures show victims of the aftermath of Soviet occupation..

But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?

Because that is sort of a question you keep dancing around and avoiding answering definitately in this thread...

Nickdfresh
04-09-2008, 03:37 PM
But does that fact that He as chief of NAzy propogand get you the chance selectively hear and adopt his agenda?
Why if you seriously belive that the Eastern Barbarians horde that has come to GErmany only to kill and rape everybody, and take the "documents' as a proofs - why do you deny the other "documents" about actions of alles that has been portrayed by the Goebbels also?
Why do you take it selectively?


I think I've answered this sufficiently. I'm not the one that brought him up in this thread. And it has been mentioned that Goebbels was dead during the occupation of Berlin.

Why do you supposed Goebbels would say such a thing? What would make him think that?

Egorka
04-09-2008, 03:51 PM
And I've never really taken Goebbel's word for anything, nor is he my source. I'm not even the one that brought him up! Nobody is citing his diary except for Egorka trying to prove some amorphous point...
WHERE?

Nickdfresh
04-09-2008, 04:14 PM
WHERE?

It was Chevran that brought him up here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122002&postcount=48

Mentioned reading him a few posts down, sorry for the confusion...

Egorka
04-09-2008, 05:15 PM
Mentioned reading him a few posts down, sorry for the confusion...
That is OK. I am not a spoon of honey either. :)


The statements are poorly worded by what is obviously a person whose first language is not English.
Ha-ha-ha! What a nonsense! And a lousy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for own words... Those statements mean exactly what the author intended to say!


And I really didn't pay much attention to the statements because I think we're talking about photographs here. And, the best answer I can give is that I do believe the pictures show victims of the aftermath of Soviet occupation..What do you mean you "believe". Strange... I was under impression that you were "just looking at the photos... (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122372&postcount=84)".
So either you just took photos without knowing what they depict and trew in as showing Soviet crimes.
Or you read the captions under the pictures. I guess the later is valid.

So I did a natural thing i.e. I asked what you think of the description. You, instead of answering openly, tell me bollocks that the description is poorly worded. Do not worry the site writer did good job expressing presicely his opinion on the discussed matter.


But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?
"Wholesale"? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or "sweeping: ignoring distinctions;"?
But that would be IMHO - "nearly 70% of German woman (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm)" and "They raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)".
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.

Because that is sort of a question you keep dancing around and avoiding answering definitately in this thread...
First of all this thread is not exactly about what we are discussing right now. It is about specific tangible peice of document that is intresting to analyse (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122338&postcount=69). And my impression is that this is what you are avoiding answering about.

No offense!

Nickdfresh
04-09-2008, 06:19 PM
That is OK. I am not a spoon of honey either. :)


MMmmmm...honey!


Ha-ha-ha! What a nonsense! And a lousy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for own words... Those statements mean exactly what the author intended to say!

Who are you talking too? Why ever would those words be my responsibility?


What do you mean you "believe". Strange... I was under impression that you were "just looking at the photos... (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122372&postcount=84)".
So either you just took photos without knowing what they depict and trew in as showing Soviet crimes.
Or you read the captions under the pictures. I guess the later is valid.

I used Google to get the pictures, and used the captions only to verify that the victims were Germans...

Which I guess shows that while we have photos of apparently a Russian soldier tugging with a German woman over a bike, we also have some photographic evidence of the victims of the Red Army's breakdown in discipline...

The captions are as I said, obviously not written by someone who learned to speak English...


So I did a natural thing i.e. I asked what you think of the description. You, instead of answering openly, tell me bollocks that the description is poorly worded. Do not worry the site writer did good job expressing presicely his opinion on the discussed matter.

Do you have a point with this?

What do you think of the descriptions?



"Wholesale"? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or "sweeping: ignoring distinctions;"?
But that would be IMHO - "nearly 70% of German woman (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm)" and "They raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)".
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.

I have seen interviews with German women that reported that in fact that the Soviet soldiers did in fact abduct women. I certainly don't know about "every women" from "eight to 80." but perhaps they missed some? The statement is obviously not literally true, but certainly the majority of women that were caught, certainly all of the young, attractive women that ran across any numbers of Soviet soldiers, seem to have been molested...

Do you think that I am correct, or no?


First of all this thread is not exactly about what we are discussing right now. It is about specific tangible peice of document that is intresting to analyse (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122338&postcount=69). And my impression is that this is what you are avoiding answering about.

No offense!

Edit So, are you going to answer my questions, or just ask them and harp on some meaningless point?

Read your response closer - thank you for your answer....

Rising Sun*
04-09-2008, 06:24 PM
WHERE?

Nick might have confused it with your reference to Goebbels diary at #52 and following.

Nickdfresh
04-09-2008, 09:35 PM
:D:D;)
Don't even look simular like me (http://i26.tinypic.com/2ily976.jpg).
But probably look like Nickdfresh (http://i29.tinypic.com/t8p6l3.jpg):)
Becouse he could not prove contrary:)


Well, I do have nice legs...

Chevan
04-09-2008, 11:46 PM
You're just pissed off that I didn't post a nicer photo of you in stockings. :D

Sure...
I don't like the hairs:)
But Nick it seem like the his legs.



Now, seriously, why do you say that Birstein isn't a reliable source?

He is such "reliable" source like D.Duke in the USA:)
Has you seen some of his fascinating articles?


Obviously there is an understanding that you and Egorka share about him and the other writers you mentioned that make them the Soviet equivalents of Irving, but why?

Well each country has own fifth column.
But if in the USSR they were from Left - in the West they are from Right.
All of them are just biased peoples.
This is not mean they wrote a UNTRUE or events that has never happend:)But you in the west call their vertions as the "Conspiracy theories".
Do you know what i mean?
We also have a bit of sick peoples who is sure that "they only write true about Soviet history"
As you know thier points were supporting in the West becouse of certain political reasons.
In the USSR the KGB puted some of most crazy to te Lunatic asulums.
You in the West sentence them to the prison ( like the history with D Irving).
So the Birshteit is one of them.
He use such qiute biased authors like Politkovskaj ( who was famous of her rushophobians articles in the west).
They try to portray thier work as the "criticize of official russian power".
But Revisionists and extremists in the West also just "criticize their authorities"
SO our left-wing Extremits( different "human right activist" who made political glory via the critic of power and ets).
The other sort of Extremist are the who has run to the west during the cold war ( thay mostly belong to one certain Ethnical group:) ) and now trolling "true" about soviet life.

Rising Sun*
04-09-2008, 11:47 PM
I've been looking for an internet copy of App's Ravishing the Women of Conquered Europe, but this is the nearest I can find.

And, yes App became a revisionist later in his career, but that doesn't necessarily undermine his earlier work.


Dr. Austin J. App, a professor and scholar of English literature at Catholic University, the University of Scranton, and LaSalle College, among others,risked career and livelihood to bring the truth of the rape of Europe's women to light.

In April, 1946, when he published this work he was a lone voice crying out for justice in an America still high on war propaganda and on a "victory" that in the later Cold War years and after would be seen clearly as a defeat for America and the West as much as it was for Germany.

The only army to rise above the raping and pillaging were the Germans.
Those of us who research WW ll, often come across the commentary that what the Soviets did to Germany, was done in retribution for what Germany did to the Soviets during the Barbarossa invasion.
However, there is nothing written claiming mass rape committed by Germans.
No one has ever come forward with first-hand accounts or even horror stories depicting the events that rivaled those that occurred in places such as Nemmersdorf.
The only work mentioning anything approaching an German orgy was written in "Hitler's Army" by Omer Bartov.
He briefly mentions the handful of soldiers involved were court-marshaled, if I recall.

If rape was so widespread by the Germans, there would most assuredly be more written on the topic.
But as we all know by now...In post-war Europe, all one had to do is claim the Germans did something and ir was accepted as fact.

Here is the relevant portion of Austin App's booklet as published in 1946

Ravishing the Women of Conquered Europe
By Austin App

As the Red Army advanced toward her in 1945, the city of Berlin had become a city virtually without men. Out of a civilian population of 2,700,000, 2,000,000 were women. It is small wonder that the fear of sexual attack raced through the city like a plague. Doctors were besieged by patients seeking information on the quickest way to commit suicide, and poison was in great demand.

In Berlin stood a charity institution, the Haus Dehlem, an orphanage, maternity hospital, and foundling home. Soviet soldiers entered the home, and repeatedly raped pregnant women and women who had just given birth. This was not an isolated incident. No one will ever know how many women were raped, but doctors' estimates run as high as 100,000 for the city of Berlin alone, their ages ranging from 10 to 70.

On March 24, 1945, our "noble Soviet allies" entered Danzig. A 50-year-old Danzig teacher reported that her niece, 15, was raped seven times, and her other niece, 22, was raped fifteen times. A Soviet officer told a group of women to seek safety in the Cathedral. Once they were securely locked inside, the beasts of Bolshevism entered, and ringing the bells and playing the organ, "celebrated" a foul orgy through the night, raping all the women, some more than thirty times. A catholic pastor in Danzig declared "They violated even eight-year-old girls and shot boys who tried to shield their mothers."

The Most Reverend Bernard Griffin, British Archbishop, made a tour of Europe to study conditions there, and reported "In Vienna alone they raped 100,000 women, not once but many times, including girls not yet in their teens, and aged women."

A Lutheran pastor in Germany, in a letter of August 7, 1945, to the Bishop of Chichester, England, describes how a fellow pastor's "two daughters and a grandchild (ten years of age) suffer from gonorrhea, [as a] result of rape" and how "Mrs. N. was killed when she resisted an attempt to rape her," while her daughter was "raped and deported, allegedly to Omsk, Siberia, for indoctrination."

The day after our noble Soviet allies conquered Neisse, Silesia, 182 Catholic nuns were raped. In the diocese of Kattowitz 66 pregnant nuns were counted. In one convent when the Mother Superior and her assistant tried to protect the younger nuns with outstretched arms, they were shot down. A priest reported in "Nord Amerika" magazine for November 1, 1945, that he knew "several villages where all the women, even the aged and girls as young as twelve, were violated daily for weeks by the Russians."

Sylvester Michelfelder, a Lutheran pastor, wrote in the Christian Century "Bands of irresponsible bandits in Russian or American uniforms pillage and rob the trains. Women and girls are violated in sight of everyone. They are stripped of their clothes."

On April 27, 1946 Vatican Radio charged that in the Russian occupation zone of Eastern Germany cries of help were going up "from girls and women who are being brutally raped and whose bodily and spiritual health is completely shaken."

The rapists did not all wear a red star. John Dos Passos, writing in LIFE magazine for January 7, 1946, quotes a "red-faced major" as saying that "Lust, liquor and loot are the soldier's pay." A serviceman wrote to TIME magazine for November 12, 1945 "Many a sane American family would recoil in horror if they knew how 'Our Boys' conduct themselves, with such complete callousness in human relationships over here." An army sergeant wrote "Our own Army and the British Army ...have done their share of looting and raping... This offensive attitude among our troops is not at all general, but the percentage is large enough to have given our Army a pretty black name, and we too are considered an army of rapists."

An Italian survivor of American bombing states that Black American troops were stationed in Naples, where they were allowed by their superiors free access to poor, hungry, and humiliated Italian women. The result of this interracial rape and sexual slavery was the production of a generation of pitiable mixed-race children, a legacy of the brutal conqueror.

According to an AP dispatch of September 12, 1945, entitled "German-American Marriages Forbidden", the Franklin Roosevelt government instructed its soldiers that marriage with the inferior Germans was absolutely forbidden, but those having illegitimate children by German women, whose husbands and boyfriends were conveniently dead or held as prisoners or slave laborers, could count on allowance money. And, according to TIME magazine of September 17, 1945, the government provided these soldiers with an estimated 50 million condoms PER MONTH, and graphically instructed them as to their use. For all practical purposes, our soldiers were being told - "Teach these Germans a lesson -- and have a wonderful time!" Such were the great crusaders who brought "democracy" to Europe. continued

Rising Sun*
04-09-2008, 11:47 PM
For the Americans and British, open rape was not as common as among the Soviet troops. The Soviets simply raped any female from eight years up and if a German man or woman killed a Russian soldier for anything, including rape, 50 Germans were killed for each incident, as reported in TIME magazine, June 11, 1945. But for most of our boys, having that "wonderful time" depended a great deal on the "cooperation" of the German and Austrian women. From the starving and the homeless, of course, sexual "cooperation" could be bought for a few pennies or a mouthful of food. I don't think we ought to dignify this arrangement with any other than its true name of sexual slavery.

The Christian Century for December 5, 1945 reported "the American provost marshal, Lieutenant Colonel Gerald F. Beane, said that rape presents no problem for the military police because a bit of food, a bar of chocolate, or a bar of soap seem to make rape unnecessary. Think that over, if you want to understand the situation in Germany." The Weekly Review of London, for October 25, 1945, described it thus: "Young girls, unattached, wander about and freely offer themselves for food or bed. ...very simply, they have one thing left to sell, and they sell it... ...as a way of dying it may be worse than starvation, but it will put off dying for months -- or even years."

Dr. George N. Shuster, president of Hunter College, wrote in the Catholic Digest of December 1945 after a visit to the American Zone of occupation, "You have said it all when you say that Europe is now a place where woman has lost her perennial fight for decency because the indecent alone live." By official policy, the Allies created conditions in which the only German mothers who could keep their young children alive were those who themselves or whose sisters became mistresses of the occupying troops. Our own officials admittedly brought the Germans down to a total daily food intake less than that of an American breakfast, a level which leads to slow but sure death unless relieved.

According to testimony given in the United States Senate on July 17, 1945, when the colonial French troops under Eisenhower's command, presumably mostly Africans, entered the German city of Stuttgart, they herded German women into the subways and raped some two thousand of them. In Stuttgart alone, troops under Eisenhower's command raped more women in one week than troops under German command raped in all of France for four entire years. In fact, of all the major belligerents in World War II, the German troops had by far the smallest record of rape and looting. In fact, the German army's incidence of rape in all of Germany's occupied territories was even lower than that of American troops stationed on American soil!

According to the International News Service in London, January 31, 1946, when American soldier's wives were brought to Germany, they were given special authorization to wear military uniforms because "the GIs did not want their wives mistaken for Fraeuleins by other occupation troops." A writer for the New York World Telegram January 21, 1945 stated "Americans look on the German women as loot, just like cameras and Lugers." Dr. G. Stewart, in a health statement submitted to General Eisenhower, reported that in the first six months of American occupation, venereal disease jumped to twenty times its former level in Germany. http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8792

Chevan
04-10-2008, 12:10 AM
Okay. How about raped, then killed?

And the Soviet bombardment of Berlin killed 250,000 civilians and the wanton use of heavy artillery in urban areas by the Red Army caused many civilian casualties throughout Eastern Europe, and I have no idea where you're getting the inflated Dresden figures...

Oi really you have no idea:)?
dg Goebbels informed German population next day after the bombing raid.
And Swizeland press repeated it.


And I've never really taken Goebbel's word for anything, nor is he my source. I'm not even the one that brought him up! Nobody is citing his diary except for Egorka trying to prove some amorphous point...

Oh said naive Nick, who just recently linked the pro-fascist site with Goebbels "documents and photos" of soviet activity in the Nemmensdorf:)


BTW, I have no idea how often it needs to be stated that Goebbels was dead when these events took place...So, your point of repeatedly bringing him up is what again?

The photos that you have posted have been shoted during the Goebbels life.


The Soviets only began to restore order when things got out of hand, and no one has said that is was the entire Red Army. BTW, nobody is accusing this of only being a problem with the Red Army. But certainly, there was a penchant for looking the other way that started with Stalin...

Stalin have no relation to the terror.
The acts of terror actually has been commited during the firsts months of soviet invasion but immedatelly after the war has been persecuted by the authorities.
Besides i hope you has not forgot my friend--the terror was a direct resault of the activity Jewish press in the USSR.
Iliaj Erenburg wrote a famous verse "Kill the GErmans" in the 1942 in central soviet prees "Pravda".
DOes it recal something for you:)



What does this have to do with German women being raped-killed by the Soviet soldiers from the postwar occupation period?
Oh you again play the naive:)
For instance - what have justification of the a-bombing to do with Japane atrocities during the ww2 toward the CHinas and Americnas POWs?
You can't tell about events of ww2 separatelly.
Becouse this is PURE demagogy and propogand.
So telling about raped GErmans don't please forget to remind about killed in the East by thier Great aryans sons:)

Chevan
04-10-2008, 12:24 AM
I've been looking for an internet copy of App's Ravishing the Women of Conquered Europe, but this is the nearest I can find.

The only army to rise above the raping and pillaging were the Germans.
Those of us who research WW ll, often come across the commentary that what the Soviets did to Germany, was done in retribution for what Germany did to the Soviets during the Barbarossa invasion.
However, there is nothing written claiming mass rape committed by Germans.

And, yes App became a revisionist later in his career, but that doesn't necessarily undermine his earlier work.


Sure mate this doesn't nessesary undetermine his earlier work:)
This just undetermine the official version of Holocaus:)
Becouse if the most human German army nobody raped , hardly the Truly Aryans could kill somebody:)Right:rolleyes:

Rising Sun*
04-10-2008, 03:47 AM
Sure mate this doesn't nessesary undetermine his earlier work:)

I don't think later conduct necessarily indicates that earlier conduct should be viewed in the same light.

David Irving was a very good historian before he got into the Holocaust denial stuff. He might still be, and it might be that later generations of historians will decide that he was correct in some or all of his interpretations. I don't think he is, but I haven't done any of the research he has and my knowledge, like almost everybody else's, comes entirely from secondary sources.

If you were going to question App's objectivity, I think you can find enough in his paper and his position in 1946 in a Catholic university. There is a lot of reliance on Catholic sources in his paper, without anything to back up the hearsay from his sources. He is clearly anti-Communist. But none of that necessarily undermines his account of Soviet and other Allied rapes. What would undermine it is showing that the sources he used are wrong or that the events he mentions didn't occur.

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 05:17 AM
Oi really you have no idea:)?
dg Goebbels informed German population next day after the bombing raid.
And Swizeland press repeated it.

And you seem to have no idea that he has no bearing on this conversation...Yet you repeatedly bring him up...


Oh said naive Nick, who just recently linked the pro-fascist site with Goebbels "documents and photos" of soviet activity in the Nemmensdorf:)

The photos that you have posted have been shoted during the Goebbels life.

So were the pictures of victims of Allied bombing. That never stopped you from spouting off in several threads about the veracity of them...


Stalin have no relation to the terror.
The acts of terror actually has been commited during the firsts months of soviet invasion but immedatelly after the war has been persecuted by the authorities.
Besides i hope you has not forgot my friend--the terror was a direct resault of the activity Jewish press in the USSR.
Iliaj Erenburg wrote a famous verse "Kill the GErmans" in the 1942 in central soviet prees "Pravda".
DOes it recal something for you:)

Well, if you call 1949 "immediately after the War." Okay...

LOL The "Jewish press" again?

Um, and killing the Germans was the Job of Soviet soldiers (in battle)...


Oh you again play the naive:)
For instance - what have justification of the a-bombing to do with Japane atrocities during the ww2 toward the CHinas and Americnas POWs?
You can't tell about events of ww2 separatelly.
Becouse this is PURE demagogy and propogand.
So telling about raped GErmans don't please forget to remind about killed in the East by thier Great aryans sons:)

You're grasping at straws here and taking this way off topic with your "evil Western Allies" crap, again...

I warn you...

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 05:21 AM
I don't think later conduct necessarily indicates that earlier conduct should be viewed in the same light.

David Irving was a very good historian before he got into the Holocaust denial stuff....

I don't know about that.

I thought I've read that there were criticisms of Irving's work before, after his first couple of books, because he (not being a trained historian) tended to reach premeditated conclusions and saw what he wanted see as his objectivity was questioned early...

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 05:23 AM
...
Becouse if the most human German army nobody raped , hardly the Truly Aryans could kill somebody:)Right:rolleyes:

Show where anybody EVER SAID THIS!!

I'M THE ONE THAT POSTED THE THREAD ON GERMAN ATROCITIES AGAINST SOVIET POWs (referred to as "the second holocaust"... (based on info from a "Jewish" Holocaust site no less...)

:rolleyes:

Rising Sun*
04-10-2008, 06:37 AM
I don't know about that.

I thought I've read that there were criticisms of Irving's work before, after his first couple of books, because he (not being a trained historian) tended to reach premeditated conclusions and saw what he wanted see as his objectivity was questioned early...

There's no doubt that Irving has been controversial for all of his writing career, but as for lack of objectivity and arguing a case then the same criticisms can be made of university trained and professional academic historians. We've had a vicious debate in Australia for the past 15 years or so which have become known as the History Wars, focusing mainly on issues about white treatment of our indigenous people until very recently but spreading to other areas of left verus right / liberal versus conservative. It's bound up with the same aspects of the political spectrum, and our last two prime ministers were involved, the last one right up to his mean little neck. For an example of the elements of the debate http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s938399.htm

Lack of academic standing isn't a bar to writing good history, as John Costello showed with his Pacific War which is widely regarded as the best single volume treatment of that conflict. As an aside, being a writer like Irving or even Costello might be more dangerous than being an academic. http://www.illuminati-news.com/091006b.htm

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 08:12 AM
There's no doubt that Irving has been controversial for all of his writing career, but as for lack of objectivity and arguing a case then the same criticisms can be made of university trained and professional academic historians....

I couldn't agree more that everyday people can become as learned and influential as a university academic regarding history. But Irving never graduated, and even his earliest, seminal works, in which he obtained his now defrocked credibility --most notably his book on Dresden-- have largely been exposed as using hearsay as historical fact with little actual fact checking. And the use of sources that had absolutely no direct connection to any real, informed count of the dead.

I would suspect his use of anecdotal "US negro soldiers" raping white Europeans as a mirror the typical, inflated race-bating used over here. Rick Atkinson goes into depth on incidents of rampaging US soldiers raping in North Africa in "An Army at Dawn," yet he says nothing to my knowledge of it happening in Italy in "Day of Battle"; and indeed, US units almost came to blows with the French Goums over their wholesale despoilment in the Italian countryside..

I think Irving is classically guilty of trying to write history according to his ideological worldview as opposed to adapting his views according to history...He's far from the only one guilty of this, but the shame is that his (for instance) silly, inflated death figures for the victims of Dresden still survive and are used by various right wing apologists for Hitler along with his discredited later Holocaust denial.

Even at his libel trial in which he lost, his views as early as college indicated a very sympathetic view of Hitler, racism, anti-semitism, and of neofascism...

Egorka
04-10-2008, 08:29 AM
Who are you talking too? Why ever would those words be my responsibility?
I am talking to you as well as anyone else using this forum.
And I have not said that those words would be your responsibility. I asked "
Do You agree with these statements? (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=122363#post122363)"


I used Google to get the pictures, and used the captions only to verify that the victims were Germans...
Does it mean you did not read the descriptions? So you mean you reffered to a pictures without knowing whoos crimes they depict. A bit shallow... maybe they depict someelse's crime?
But you can not be sure since you did not read the captions, right?


Which I guess shows that while we have photos of apparently a Russian soldier tugging with a German woman over a bike, we also have some photographic evidence of the victims of the Red Army's breakdown in discipline...
Yes, we do have photografs of the victims of RKKA. What is your point with this?
You are just like Panzercknacker - you are fighting with the ghosts of your own imagination (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=121775&postcount=18).


The captions are as I said, obviously not written by someone who learned to speak English...
So what? 70% is 70%. Basta. In the Litvonian caption it says "70-80%".
The site author expressed his opinino clearly.


Do you have a point with this?Do you?


What do you think of the descriptions?
They suck. They are just as much true as saying that "all Wehrmacht soldiers were baby killers".



I have seen interviews with German women that reported that in fact that the Soviet soldiers did in fact abduct women. I certainly don't know about "every women" from "eight to 80." but perhaps they missed some? The statement is obviously not literally true, but certainly the majority of women that were caught, certainly all of the young, attractive women that ran across any numbers of Soviet soldiers, seem to have been molested...
Do you think that I am correct, or no?
I have already answered on this. But I will repeat just for you:



But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?
"Wholesale"? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or "sweeping: ignoring distinctions;"?
But that would be IMHO - "nearly 70% of German woman (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm)" and "They raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)".
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.


Edit So, are you going to answer my questions, or just ask them and harp on some meaningless point?
Read your response closer - thank you for your answer....
What "questions"?
I answered one in my post #102 (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122454&postcount=102), see the quote above.
Do you have more questions for me?

Rising Sun*
04-10-2008, 08:34 AM
I couldn't agree more that everyday people can become as learned and influential as a university academic regarding history. But Irving never graduated, and even his earliest, seminal works, in which he obtained his now defrocked credibility --most notably his book on Dresden-- have largely been exposed as using hearsay as historical fact with little actual fact checking. And the use of sources that had absolutely no direct connection to any real, informed count of the dead.

I think Irving is classically guilty of trying to write history according to his ideological worldview as opposed to adapting his views according to history...He's far form the only one guilty of this, but the shame is that his (for instance) silly, inflated death figures for the victims of Dresden still survive and are used by various right wing apologists for Hitler along with his discredited later Holocaust denial.

Even at his libel trial in which he lost, his views as early as college indicated a very sympathetic view of Hitler, racism, anti-semitism, and of neofascism...

That's all true.

But Iriving's The War Between the Generals was still a good work. I've heard a couple of non-aligned academic historians say the same about it, and it was one of them who recommended it to me many years ago. Both had contempt for his revisionism.

As with so much fiction and non-fiction writing, it's probably a case of evaluating given works rather than treating everything from a given author as good, bad or indifferent.

A couple of relevant and semi-relevant diversions on revisionism.

On App, who I mentioned earlier, http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p-43_App.html, and the rabid commentary of whom should make Chevan quite moist in his underpants with the prospect of demolishing App as a source. :D

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/boyd-tonkin-the-past-that-we-believe-in-is-to-others-a-myth-800230.html

Rising Sun*
04-10-2008, 08:47 AM
Does it mean you did not read the descriptions? So you mean you reffered to a pictures without knowing whoos crimes they depict. A bit shallow... maybe they depict someelse's crime?
But you can not be sure since you did not read the captions, right?

Doesn't this take us back to the earlier point that captions, and even photos, aren't reliable?

After all, I found a clearly impossible caption that shows that the bike incident occurred in December 1944 long before the Soviets got into Berlin.

Photos of individual bodies don't tell us anything beyond what we can see.

Egorka
04-10-2008, 09:02 AM
Doesn't this take us back to the earlier point that captions, and even photos, aren't reliable?
Yes, kind of.
But I already said that the photos can be considered as circumstantial evidance. Photos are not bad as such.


After all, I found a clearly impossible caption that shows that the bike incident occurred in December 1944 long before the Soviets got into Berlin.Right. But the erroneous caption you found was not original.
The original caption and photo is in the "Bildarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz" and was featured in the photo exebition in Berlin in 1991.


Photos of individual bodies don't tell us anything beyond what we can see.Correct. Unless we know the context.
That is interesting about this specific image that it has more to it than normaly.

Rising Sun*
04-10-2008, 09:17 AM
Correct. Unless we know the context.

That's the heart of it.

But the supposed context usually comes from captions or news reports associated with a picture.

So, for example, we could have (an imaginary in this case) picture of a mass grave being excavated somewhere in Aceh in Indonesia which has the caption that it's Christians or Muslims who are victims of the other lot during their long war. It'll get a lot of publicity by the side which thinks it's the victims.

But it could just be a mass grave of victims of the 2004 tsunami.

Or it could be something else.

Unless the photo is clearly about what it appears to depict, such as Japanese bayoneting bound prisoners in China, then we always need the context explained by a witness.

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 09:58 AM
I am talking to you as well as anyone else using this forum.
And I have not said that those words would be your responsibility. I asked "
Do You agree with these statements? (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=122363#post122363)"


Does it mean you did not read the descriptions? So you mean you referred to a pictures without knowing whoos crimes they depict. A bit shallow... maybe they depict someelse's crime?
But you can not be sure since you did not read the captions, right?

I didn't say I didn't read them, I said that they were largely irrelevant...

And you used the term "responsibility" in the earlier post as if I had written them...



Yes, we do have photografs of the victims of RKKA. What is your point with this?
You are just like Panzercknacker - you are fighting with the ghosts of your own imagination (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=121775&postcount=18).

The "ghosts of my imagination?" Like Panzerknacker? Moi?

Um, I'm actually just reacting to your frenzied attack. Most of my responses were the Chevran, not you specifically...

Yet, you seem to be abiding his strawman arguments...


So what? 70% is 70%. Basta. In the Litvonian caption it says "70-80%".
The site author expressed his opinino clearly.

Do you?

The author, though a bit amateurish and emotional, would have good basis for saying so.

The quote is from Anthony Beevor's book BTW...

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html


They suck. They are just as much true as saying that "all Wehrmacht soldiers were baby killers".

Um, no. That's not what the caption said. Actually, saying "every Red Army soldier was a baby killer" would be the exact translation...


I have already answered on this. But I will repeat just for you:



"Wholesale"? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or "sweeping: ignoring distinctions;"?
But that would be IMHO - "nearly 70% of German woman (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm)" and "They raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)".
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.


Yes but, the "sweeping distinctions" in this case come from historical resources. So the author in fact has something to back his statements up...


What "questions"?
I answered one in my post #102 (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122454&postcount=102), see the quote above.
Do you have more questions for me?

Yes. What percentage of German women in the occupied zone do you think were raped?

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 10:03 AM
More info on the "eight to 80" quote courtesy of The Guardian: (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html)


Several German women recorded how Soviet servicewomen watched and laughed when they were raped. But some women were deeply shaken by what they witnessed in Germany. Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists."

Chevan
04-10-2008, 02:09 PM
I don't think later conduct necessarily indicates that earlier conduct should be viewed in the same light.

Agree...
But...
You have to realise that claming Irving as the excellent historians you couldn't call his lates works just as the Conspiracy teories, right?


David Irving was a very good historian before he got into the Holocaust denial stuff. He might still be, and it might be that later generations of historians will decide that he was correct in some or all of his interpretations. I don't think he is, but I haven't done any of the research he has and my knowledge, like almost everybody else's, comes entirely from secondary sources.

Actually he was one of the best expert in Third Reich history ( in one lewel as famouse british Trevor-Ruper). But he defenitelly was the superior expert in studiing of life of NAzy leaders.
One of his famouse book has been devoted to the leaders of Third reich ( i've forgot one of which)


If you were going to question App's objectivity, I think you can find enough in his paper and his position in 1946 in a Catholic university. There is a lot of reliance on Catholic sources in his paper, without anything to back up the hearsay from his sources. He is clearly anti-Communist. But none of that necessarily undermines his account of Soviet and other Allied rapes. What would undermine it is showing that the sources he used are wrong or that the events he mentions didn't occur.
That's what i mean.
He is not lier, but he is .....softly say ......biased.
The biased peoples just make its own version of the matter.
I do not say they lie, but they ....write not full of true.
For instance you know that some people in Japane consider their country as victim of unfair allies terror.The firebombing and a-bombing killed a lot of "innocent" peoples.
But ,... at the same time they speak nothink about Japane terror in China and Korea.
So does it meant that they speak the UNTRUE, not.
They right from their side.
But they are biased:)
So we can't take their point as objective, right?

Chevan
04-10-2008, 02:14 PM
Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists

Oh it so sad fact that b.....h has not been imprisoned to the Auswitz
There she would watch the Army of rarpists :rolleyes:

Chevan
04-10-2008, 02:24 PM
On App, who I mentioned earlier, http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p-43_App.html, and the rabid commentary of whom should make Chevan quite moist in his underpants with the prospect of demolishing App as a source. :D


:D
The one more reason why i dislike the western revisionists : they all just are the sick rusophobians;)
The App definitely one of them:)
But just look for that

...As early as 1933, before Hitler had harmed a single Jew, an International Jewish Boycott Conference, presided over by Samuel Untermeyer, the same who had paid Wilson $40,000 to appoint Brandeis Supreme Court justice in 1916, declared a crippling boycott on the Third Reich, while it was still in the throes of the inhuman reparations imposed at Versailles

look nice is it not?:D
Nick should like it:)

Chevan
04-10-2008, 02:30 PM
Show where anybody EVER SAID THIS!!

I'M THE ONE THAT POSTED THE THREAD ON GERMAN ATROCITIES AGAINST SOVIET POWs (referred to as "the second holocaust"... (based on info from a "Jewish" Holocaust site no less...)

:rolleyes:
There is not second Holocaust- it was just a SINGLE Nick.
the holocaust of 30+ mln of peoples of Europe during the WW2.
And to separate from Peoples Holocaust - the "special" jewish Holocaust - this is act of racism and simply idiotism ( this make harm firstly for the jews)

Chevan
04-10-2008, 02:43 PM
LOL The "Jewish press" again?

Um, and killing the Germans was the Job of Soviet soldiers (in battle)...

Yes ...again.
The first man in the word was a Jew ( according Bible at least)
So the mankind has started its life from a Jew ..again and again.:)
BTW I.Erenburg NEVER wrote about GErmans soldiers in his famouse "Kill the Germans", he wrote about any Germans at all :rolleyes:
So you are wrong here. Western Revisionist very like to post his verse as the "proof" of Evil's aims of Soviet army:)
And about those peoples who had inspired them...of one sertain Ethnic group:)


You're grasping at straws here and taking this way off topic with your "evil Western Allies" crap, again...

But you still have not been tired by your obsessive idea of "Evil Red Army soldiers", right?
So why we should not compare the things?eh


I warn you...
Oh terrible and mighty Nickdfresh:)

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 04:29 PM
:D
The one more reason why i dislike the western revisionists : they all just are the sick rusophobians;)
The App definitely one of them:)
But just look for that

look nice is it not?:D
Nick should like it:)

Um, actually they're mostly Holocaust deniers of the Irving and Faurisson vein...

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 04:30 PM
There is not second Holocaust- it was just a SINGLE Nick.
the holocaust of 30+ mln of peoples of Europe during the WW2.
And to separate from Peoples Holocaust - the "special" jewish Holocaust - this is act of racism and simply idiotism ( this make harm firstly for the jews)

True enough, but it is second only in mass killings of prisoners...

Nickdfresh
04-10-2008, 04:35 PM
Yes ...again.
The first man in the word was a Jew ( according Bible at least)
So the mankind has started its life from a Jew ..again and again.:)
BTW I.Erenburg NEVER wrote about GErmans soldiers in his famouse "Kill the Germans", he wrote about any Germans at all :rolleyes:
So you are wrong here. Western Revisionist very like to post his verse as the "proof" of Evil's aims of Soviet army:)
And about those peoples who had inspired them...of one sertain Ethnic group:)

But you still have not been tired by your obsessive idea of "Evil Red Army soldiers", right?
So why we should not compare the things?eh

Oh terrible and mighty Nickdfresh:)

Meh, are you finished with your Russophobian victim persecution rant yet? :(

Panzerknacker
04-10-2008, 05:57 PM
So tipical...when one dont agree with you both is colaborating with Doktor Goebbels.



Yes, we do have photografs of the victims of RKKA. What is your point with this?
You are just like Panzercknacker - you are fighting with the ghosts of your own imagination (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=121775&postcount=18).


Nick or me does not matter, the fact is that everybody is aware of your intentions you stalinist snake.

You want to do a really serious contribution to our forum?
Then please leave, we dont need that kind of revisionist gargabe, leave and dont forget to take your scumbag nazi jewish hater southern russian friend with you !!

Rising Sun*
04-10-2008, 07:25 PM
So tipical...when one dont agree with you both is colaborating with Doktor Goebbels.

Nick or me does not matter, the fact is that everybody is aware of your intentions you stalinist snake.

You want to do a really serious contribution to our forum?
Then please leave, we dont need that kind of revisionist gargabe, leave and dont forget to take your scumbag nazi jewish hater southern russian friend with you !!

That was a most informative and helpful contribution to the discussion. :rolleyes:

Chevan
04-10-2008, 11:44 PM
That was a most informative and helpful contribution to the discussion. :rolleyes:
I doubt that this senseless combination of words even could look like an "informative post".
the "stalinist snake..nazy jewish hater":)
The tupical retired Latinos intenet-dictator :rolleyes:

Egorka
04-11-2008, 01:31 AM
Nick or me does not matter, the fact is that everybody is aware of your intentions I naturaly can not speak about "everybody", but specificly "your psychoanalytic skill sucks, my friend". That we know for sure.

you stalinist snake.
Falkland war argentinian crimes denier... ;)

You want to do a really serious contribution to our forum?
Yes! Yes! Tell me what to do, my glorious master! Please! Teach me!

Then please leave, we dont need that kind of revisionist gargabe, leave and dont forget to take your scumbag nazi jewish hater southern russian friend with you !!
Arrhhh... Revisionism - the last escape in absens of arguments. Well done!

Yet I refuse to dislike you. Panzeknacker, listen to me: There is nothing you can say to make me dislike you!!!

Nickdfresh
04-11-2008, 02:51 AM
I doubt that this senseless combination of words even could look like an "informative post".
the "stalinist snake..nazy jewish hater":)
The tupical retired Latinos intenet-dictator :rolleyes:

We need to stay away from personal insults in this discussion...

Rising Sun*
04-11-2008, 03:37 AM
Getting back to the debate about the reliability of photographs and their captions as historical evidence, here is conclusive proof that revisionists use them shamelessly to 'prove' events that never happened, such as the Irish Potato Famine. :D


This photograph is labelled on the website Interpreting The Irish Famine, 1846-1850, as "A family evicted by their landlords" (Source: Lawrence Collection, National Library of Ireland). However, when you look at it, how can you really tell that that's what's happening? They could be just out for a walk. Or perhaps the police are there to arrest them for a perfectly legitimate criminal offence. Or it could have been staged - doesn't it look like they're posing? And if it was really an eviction, then why would it have been photographed? This picture obviously cannot serve as proof that the alleged famine happened. Mislabelling of photographs such as this one is a central tenet of the Potato Hoax. http://www.revisionism.nl/Potato/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

Egorka
04-11-2008, 03:39 AM
I didn't say I didn't read them, I said that they were largely irrelevant...
And you used the term "responsibility" in the earlier post as if I had written them...
On my question: "The site where this images are located says: ... Do You agree with these statements?"
You replied: "Statements? I was just looking at the photos..."

I got the impression that you either did not read them or did not want to discuss them. But since I did not beleive you would link a photograph without proper chek on what is actually depicted I assumed you did not want to talk about them (statements = captions = photo descriptions).


The "ghosts of my imagination?" Like Panzerknacker? Moi?
Toi, toi, mon amie!
Toi et les fantôme de ton imagination débridée. :)


Um, I'm actually just reacting to your frenzied attack. Most of my responses were the Chevran, not you specifically...
I really do not understand what kind of "frenzied attack" of mine you are talking about.
I opened the thread. I mostly talked to Rising Sun, you to Chevan. Then you and I exchanged a couple of post (#64, #65, #68) about child pornography (really relevant topic in this thread!).
Then in the post #70 you linked to the known victim photografs. I went to see them and looked on the site where they are located to see more about the context (Hello Rising Sun!). SO you know what I read there. And I have seen similar statements before many times.
So since you linked to the photos I thought it would be reasonable to ask about your opinion on their presentation on the mentioned site (post #76). You replied in post #80: "Statements? ...". I explained what statements in post #88 and asked "What do you think about them?".
In post #98 you said "The statements are poorly worded". In the same post you asked me: "Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?".
I replied to you in the post #102. First I said it was rediculous to imply poor wording because the intended message was carried perfectly to the reader. The site author do in fact mean 70% raped (or in Litvonian lag. - 70-80%). And the I answered to your second question about my personal beleive on this matter.
And so our conversation continued...

What "frenziet attack"?


Yet, you seem to be abiding his strawman arguments...
I will tell you a secret... schhhh... I am not really following your conversation with Chevan. I simply do not have time to read all of the posts.


The author, though a bit amateurish and emotional, would have good basis for saying so.
Maybe, but most people do not think like you do.
In fact, this "70-80%", "all women" and "gang of rapists" is becoming main stream. Among others thanks to sites like that.


The quote is from Anthony Beevor's book BTW...
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html

I know, Il inked to that article in the post #14.


Um, no. That's not what the caption said. Actually, saying "every Red Army soldier was a baby killer" would be the exact translation...
Umm. Ok. What about these options:

German Wehrmacht lead by nazists have raped nearly 70% of Soviet woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes.
German Wehrmacht lead by nazists have killed nearly 70% of Soviet men. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes.
German Wehrmacht lead by nazists have killed nearly 70% of Soviet babies. No ne was sentenced or suited for this crimes.
Nazist encouraged Wehrmacht soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot.
Nazist encouraged Wehrmacht soldiers to kill babies.



Yes but, the "sweeping distinctions" in this case come from historical resources. So the author in fact has something to back his statements up...
Yes. Back the facts and photodocuments. Not the statements about "70-80%".


Yes. What percentage of German women in the occupied zone do you think were raped?
Well, as you can imagine I do not know the number. I can only speculate. There can be a couple different approaches to this. Lets try... very rougly.

First approach:

85 million - the total german population in Germany by april 1939 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2225203637_d4abe8f75f_o.jpg).
43,35 million - Lets say women of all the ages constitute 51% of population.
17,34 million - women of all the ages in Soviet occupation zone, i.t. 40% of total (as the Germans tend to escape to the western sector).
13,872 million women - German women in Soviet zone aged 15-60 y.o., i.e. 80%(?) of prior number.

So 70% raped women whould be app. 9,7 million. Right?
So we already have a discrepancy woth Beevor's statement. A rather big discrepancy.
What do you think on this?

Second approach:

How many rapists there were in RKKA? What is the rapists penetration ratio in the troops?
Lets try to look at it. I estimate there were stationed 5 million Soviet troops in Europe (I am not 100% sure about the number though right now).
1% - 50.000 rape cases
5% - 250.000 rape cases
10% - 500.000 rape cases
15% - 750.000 rape cases

You could argue "once a rapist - multiple rapist".
If we take in average a rapist would comit 3 assults against women:
1% - 150.000 rape cases
5% - 750.000 rape cases
10% - 1.500.000 rape cases
15% - 2.250.000 rape cases

My opinion is that the rapist penetration would be arount 1%-4%. Which leads us in the worst case (4%, avg. 3 times) to 650.000 rape cases.
That could be considered as upper bound of my estimate.
Really hardly "70%-80%".

Rising Sun*
04-11-2008, 04:20 AM
Well, as you can imagine I do not know the number. I can only speculate. There can be a couple different approaches to this. Lets try... very rougly.

First approach:

85 million - the total german population in Germany by april 1939 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2225203637_d4abe8f75f_o.jpg).
43,35 million - Lets say women of all the ages constitute 51% of population.
17,34 million - women of all the ages in Soviet occupation zone, i.t. 40% of total (as the Germans tend to escape to the western sector).
13,872 million women - German women in Soviet zone aged 15-60 y.o., i.e. 80%(?) of prior number.

So 70% raped women whould be app. 9,7 million. Right?
So we already have a discrepancy woth Beevor's statement. A rather big discrepancy.
What do you think on this?

Second approach:

How many rapists there were in RKKA? What is the rapists penetration ratio in the troops?
Lets try to look at it. I estimate there were stationed 5 million Soviet troops in Europe (I am not 100% sure about the number though right now).
1% - 50.000 rape cases
5% - 250.000 rape cases
10% - 500.000 rape cases
15% - 750.000 rape cases

You could argue "once a rapist - multiple rapist".
If we take in average a rapist would comit 3 assults against women:
1% - 150.000 rape cases
5% - 750.000 rape cases
10% - 1.500.000 rape cases
15% - 2.250.000 rape cases

My opinion is that the rapist penetration would be arount 1%-4%. Which leads us in the worst case (4%, avg. 3 times) to 650.000 rape cases.
That could be considered as upper bound of my estimate.
Really hardly "70%-80%".

What's wrong with these estimates, from the Guardan article in Nick's post at #123?


Estimates of rape victims from the city's two main hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 130,000. One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in the city, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to have been much higher among the 1.4 million estimated victims in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least two million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape. http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html

IIRC Berlin's female population in 1945 was about 2,000,000, which gives about 5% as victims treated in hospitals. Western figures for many decades indicate that perhaps 1 in 10 rapes are reported in Western societies, which if applied to Berlin, even without the abnormal and lawless aspects applying there, would mean a number of rapes equivalent to about half of the female population in Berlin. Given the lack of action on many reports of rape in Berlin, the figures and percentages were probably rather higher.

Rising Sun*
04-11-2008, 06:51 AM
Having spent the past hour watching a documentary about the rape of Nanking, with nauseating recollections from aged former Japanese soldiers calmly and even laughingly recounting raping and killing Chinese with less feeling than I'd have for hitting a fly with fly spray, I don't think that abstract discussions about exactly how many or what percentage of women were raped in Germany or anywhere else really matter, any more than it matters whether six or five or three of ten million Jews or any other group were exterminated by the Nazis or anyone else.

Once it's established that there was a policy or an attitude which allowed such things on a large scale, then the people who did it and the nation which allowed it deserve condemnation for allowing it.

And nations which still can't admit the past deserve even more condemnation.

Egorka
04-11-2008, 07:07 AM
Having spent the past hour watching a documentary about the rape of Nanking, ...
Is it on the Internet? Is there a link?


I don't think that abstract discussions about exactly how many or what percentage of women were raped in Germany or anywhere else really matter, any more than it matters whether six or five or three of ten million Jews or any other group were exterminated by the Nazis or anyone else.
I agree.
Tough the calculation comes in when someone has to react on the claim like "70-80%" and "army of rapists" and such.


Once it's established that there was a policy or an attitude which allowed such things on a large scale, then the people who did it and the nation which allowed it deserve condemnation for allowing it.
The purpetrator's crimes should be condemened. And rape is surely a terrible crime. I find it even silly to say as it is self explanatory thing...
The condemnation of the nation is a more blurry issue though but it is a reasonable point for discussion.


And nations which still can't admit the past deserve even more condemnation.Disputeable. But it is a matter of what is actually to be admited.
Each side of the story is bringing forward the extreems. Denieying one extreem does not automaticaly mean accepting an other extreem view.

Rising Sun*
04-11-2008, 07:44 AM
Is it on the Internet? Is there a link?

Don't know.

I saw it on TV in a series called As It Happened, tonight's episode being The Rape of Nanking. Looks like it or parts of it might be on You Tube http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=as+it+happened+rape+of+nankin g&search_type= but you need to register as over 18 to view and I can't be bothered. I've seen enough inhumanity and evil for one night.


I agree.
Tough the calculation comes in when someone has to react on the claim like "70-80%" and "army of rapists" and such.

For the historical record it's important to get the right figures, but for general historical discussion it's the motivation behind events that matters in understanding them. For example, whether X thousand or Y thousand were killed in bombings at Dresden or Tokyo isn't particularly relevant to debates about whether or not they were justified raids once we know that a lot of people died.

Figures start to matter somewhere, because nobody apart from those closely affected is going to get wound up about, say, an RAF strafing run on a French road which killed an innocent French civilian family in early 1944, although from a moral viewpoint there probably isn't any distinction to be made on the basis of numbers. An action is either morally acceptable or not.


The purpetrator's crimes should be condemened. And rape is surely a terrible crime. I find it even silly to say as it is self explanatory thing...
The condemnation of the nation is a more blurry issue though but it is a reasonable point for discussion.

One can condemn a nation for specific policies or actions without condemning the nation, or its people, as a whole, as one can be upset with one's child for a specific act without regarding the whole child as bad.


Disputeable. But it is a matter of what is actually to be admited.
Each side of the story is bringing forward the extreems. Denieying one extreem does not automaticaly mean accepting an other extreem view.

Forgiveness usually requires the offender to admit the wrongful act; to be remorseful for it; and, ideally, to atone for it.

It's done millions of times every day on a personal level, but rarely on a national level.

There's a world of difference between saying 'What I did in that case was wrong.' and 'I am a totally worthless bastard.'

Rising Sun*
04-11-2008, 08:16 AM
Falkland war argentinian crimes denier... ;)

Why is this thread obsessed with a stocking measurement?

Anyway, as it's clearly important to you to have some 15 or higher denier stockings on an Argentinian war crime to balance Chevan's frightening fashion crime, here it is. :D

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5615/drag1mercury468x653vw1.jpg

Egorka
04-11-2008, 08:26 AM
I agree with most of that (post #142). The bits that I could discuss I leave for other threads.
You see we are not that different. And if not for your gargatuan ability to misunderstand me we could get allong quite well. :)

Nickdfresh
04-11-2008, 09:18 AM
On my question: "The site where this images are located says: ... Do You agree with these statements?"
You replied: "Statements? I was just looking at the photos..."

I got the impression that you either did not read them or did not want to discuss them. But since I did not beleive you would link a photograph without proper chek on what is actually depicted I assumed you did not want to talk about them (statements = captions = photo descriptions).

I did discuss them. You actually chose to overfocus on them in some effort to discredit the site as relevant or irrelevant propaganda. The fact is, there is much bitterness about the conduct of Soviet soldiers during their march through Eastern Europe....


Toi, toi, mon amie!
Toi et les fantôme de ton imagination débridée. :)

I don't speak French, "moi" is one of the derivatives adopted into the English language...


I really do not understand what kind of "frenzied attack" of mine you are talking about.

Maybe "obsession" would have been a better term...


I opened the thread. I mostly talked to Rising Sun, you to Chevan. Then you and I exchanged a couple of post (#64, #65, #68) about child pornography (really relevant topic in this thread!).

I will tell you a secret... schhhh... I am not really following your conversation with Chevan. I simply do not have time to read all of the posts.

You see this is where I have a big problem here. I wasn't initially discussing anything with you. I commenting on the red-herrings that Chevran was throwing into the conversation. You chose only to comment to me when it is your countrymen making silly, off-topic responses (like wishing rape and death on people because he doesn't like what they say). Then you act as if I am responding to you while ignoring Chevran totally.

I find this totally disingenuous...


Then in the post #70 you linked to the known victim photografs. I went to see them and looked on the site where they are located to see more about the context (Hello Rising Sun!). SO you know what I read there. And I have seen similar statements before many times.
So since you linked to the photos I thought it would be reasonable to ask about your opinion on their presentation on the mentioned site (post #76). You replied in post #80: "Statements? ...". I explained what statements in post #88 and asked "What do you think about them?".
In post #98 you said "The statements are poorly worded". In the same post you asked me: "Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?".
I replied to you in the post #102. First I said it was rediculous to imply poor wording because the intended message was carried perfectly to the reader. The site author do in fact mean 70% raped (or in Litvonian lag. - 70-80%). And the I answered to your second question about my personal beleive on this matter.
And so our conversation continued...

What "frenziet attack"?

Maybe, but most people do not think like you do.
In fact, this "70-80%", "all women" and "gang of rapists" is becoming main stream. Among others thanks to sites like that.


I know, Il inked to that article in the post #14.

Because you seemed rather obsessed and wrapped up in statistics...

Whether is was 70% or 40%, the overall effect was the same. The German women in the Soviet sector could scarcely venture out in public after a certain point of the day. And any girl (after the initial "revenge" point of rape, after which it became more of the traditional reflection of an ancient army plundering in their conquest to which women became objects.

The comments, how ever inarticulately posted in English are taken from he historical record. Much of which from former Soviet soldiers recollections..


Umm. Ok. What about these options:

German Wehrmacht lead by nazists have raped nearly 70% of Soviet woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes.
German Wehrmacht lead by nazists have killed nearly 70% of Soviet men. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes.
German Wehrmacht lead by nazists have killed nearly 70% of Soviet babies. No ne was sentenced or suited for this crimes.
Nazist encouraged Wehrmacht soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot.
Nazist encouraged Wehrmacht soldiers to kill babies.



We'll get back to this...

Okay (edit): Firstly, I do not recall reading all of these explicit statements referring to Soviet soldiers, but to other communist movements. Secondly, I can point you too numerous sites in which are harshly critical of the Wehrmacht's activity in the Ost, which precipitated all of this. Including an exhibit held in Germany in the 1990s which showed photos of regular Wehrmacht soldiers conducting massacres and atrocities.

The pictorial display was considered highly controversial because of the German understanding that the Wehrmacht conducted itself as generally a regualr military formation and that is was mostly the Waffen SS that conducted the most barbarous atrocities. This was clearly not always the case; but the exhibition caused a bit of a row nonetheless because it forced some Germans to the cold hard reality that many of ever their regular soldiers, conscripted, conducted horricfic acts against Soviet civilians...


Yes. Back the facts and photodocuments. Not the statements about "70-80%".


Well, as you can imagine I do not know the number. I can only speculate. There can be a couple different approaches to this. Lets try... very rougly.

First approach:

85 million - the total german population in Germany by april 1939 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2225203637_d4abe8f75f_o.jpg).
43,35 million - Lets say women of all the ages constitute 51% of population.
17,34 million - women of all the ages in Soviet occupation zone, i.t. 40% of total (as the Germans tend to escape to the western sector).
13,872 million women - German women in Soviet zone aged 15-60 y.o., i.e. 80%(?) of prior number.

So 70% raped women whould be app. 9,7 million. Right?
So we already have a discrepancy woth Beevor's statement. A rather big discrepancy.
What do you think on this?

Second approach:

How many rapists there were in RKKA? What is the rapists penetration ratio in the troops?
Lets try to look at it. I estimate there were stationed 5 million Soviet troops in Europe (I am not 100% sure about the number though right now).
1% - 50.000 rape cases
5% - 250.000 rape cases
10% - 500.000 rape cases
15% - 750.000 rape cases

You could argue "once a rapist - multiple rapist".
If we take in average a rapist would comit 3 assults against women:
1% - 150.000 rape cases
5% - 750.000 rape cases
10% - 1.500.000 rape cases
15% - 2.250.000 rape cases

My opinion is that the rapist penetration would be arount 1%-4%. Which leads us in the worst case (4%, avg. 3 times) to 650.000 rape cases.
That could be considered as upper bound of my estimate.
Really hardly "70%-80%".

Your numbers are drawn out of thin air and are not based on anything but your perceptions of what is plausible...

Egorka
04-11-2008, 05:31 PM
@Nickedfresh,

A very strange answer for most of it... Let's say it is due to my bad communication skills.
Thanks for the answers and for being open minded!

Nickdfresh
04-11-2008, 06:37 PM
@Nickedfresh,

A very strange answer for most of it... Let's say it is due to my bad communication skills.
Thanks for the answers and for being open minded!

Your communication skills are very good all things considered...

I'll be happy to clarify further...

Rising Sun*
04-12-2008, 06:47 AM
And if not for your gargatuan ability to misunderstand me we could get allong quite well. :)

Misunderstand?

Moi? :D

Gracie
04-12-2008, 12:52 PM
how odd to try to steal someone's bike by grabbing the tire. lol.

Chevan
04-13-2008, 02:41 AM
how odd to try to steal someone's bike by grabbing the tire. lol.
That's absolute true lady Gracie.
Actualy nobody even try to steal somthing on that photo.
Probably the soldier even help the woman to repair their bycicle.
But some of out american friends still do have the tend to believe selectively in nazy propogand :rolleyes:

Chevan
04-13-2008, 02:50 AM
The comments, how ever inarticulately posted in English are taken from he historical record. Much of which from former Soviet soldiers recollections..

Oh really Nickdfresh:)
There were no any "soviet soldiers recollections" about Violence and rapings toward the germans womans.
Show me at least the one?
P.S. have again forgot my nickname?
Old sclerotic;)

Chevan
04-13-2008, 03:58 AM
How many rapists there were in RKKA? What is the rapists penetration ratio in the troops?
Lets try to look at it. I estimate there were stationed 5 million Soviet troops in Europe (I am not 100% sure about the number though right now).
1% - 50.000 rape cases
5% - 250.000 rape cases
10% - 500.000 rape cases
15% - 750.000 rape cases

You could argue "once a rapist - multiple rapist".
If we take in average a rapist would comit 3 assults against women:
1% - 150.000 rape cases
5% - 750.000 rape cases
10% - 1.500.000 rape cases
15% - 2.250.000 rape cases

My opinion is that the rapist penetration would be arount 1%-4%. Which leads us in the worst case (4%, avg. 3 times) to 650.000 rape cases.
That could be considered as upper bound of my estimate.
Really hardly "70%-80%".
Good estimates ( although rough, but this is better then nothing)
You are forgetting one importaint moment.
In fact many of germans woman absolutly voluntary have agreed to be the "girfriends" of soviet soldiers or officers.
Probably they had its own motivations - for food, for safatey and ets.
BTW we know the certain part of of French woman did the same absolutly volunatry during NAzy occupation of France.They cohabited with Germans
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php
So in fact the many of germans woman made the same.
But later they feel shame for their behaviour in Germany, so today many of them began to tell - they all have been raped with violence?
Actually how could you prove otherwise?

Rising Sun*
04-13-2008, 05:51 AM
how odd to try to steal someone's bike by grabbing the tire. lol.

It seems odd to people who've stolen, or even seen, a bike before, but the Russki was probably trying to get hold of the bike's head so he could get a bridle over the iron horse.:D

Rising Sun*
04-13-2008, 05:53 AM
Probably they had its own motivations - for food, for safatey and ets.


If the Soviets behaved properly in the Soviet areas of occupation, why would German women need to form liaisons with Soviet soldiers for safety?

Rising Sun*
04-13-2008, 08:04 AM
Some personal recollections of women under the advancing Soviets. The last one was a prisoner of the Nazis, so she can't be dismissed as a Nazi propagandist.

The simple fact is that some Soviet troops came from fairly brutal and primitive backgrounds which allowed rape as acceptable conduct in victory.


Russian soldiers would come in the evening and rape them, but of course, we children did not understand why our Mums cried a lot.
...

We eventually returned to our house in a street we hardly recognised. The Russian soldiers damaged and ruined everything. They used the baths as toilets (not ever having had any) and washed food and themselves in the Loos. When the chain was pulled and the potatoes and vegetables flushed away, they shot all the basins in the belief that someone was stealing them. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/26/a4403026.shtml


Also
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/36/a3009836.shtml


http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/81/a2282681.shtml


Before we had left Stettin an advanced troop of Russian soldiers came into the town- we could hear women screaming in appartments downstairs - they were being raped. My mother put spots using her lipstick on her and my face,to make it look like we had measles. Fortunately the soldiers never came into our appartment so we never had to find out if our ruse would work. At the time I just dealt with it - but now thinking back I realise how dreadful it was. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/98/a4269198.shtml



So now we had to decide what to do. The two girls still said we should go and wait. Either go and meet the Russians or wait until the Russians are coming now to this town. And I, as I wasn’t such a committed Communist, all of a sudden had an uneasy feeling and said I personally would prefer to go and see where we can find the English or American line. Which, of course, we had no idea where it was. And as I was the only German speaking part of our little group, they had to come with me. Which was very fortunate for us because later we got to know that quite a few others of our group, of our escape group there, got into the hands of the Russians and had the most terrible experiences there. Not only that some of them were shot but all of them were raped and had the most terrible time. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/08/a4066508.shtml

larryparamedic
04-13-2008, 08:17 AM
"They used the baths as toilets (not ever having had any) and washed food and themselves in the Loos. When the chain was pulled and the potatoes and vegetables flushed away, they shot all the basins in the belief that someone was stealing them."

Can anyone verify that statement, just for curiosity sake?
No matter what level of Siberian conscription there was in Russia, I can't hardly imagine they were really that stupid.

Gracie
04-13-2008, 08:52 AM
It seems odd to people who've stolen, or even seen, a bike before, but the Russki was probably trying to get hold of the bike's head so he could get a bridle over the iron horse.:D


It just didn't make sense to me for someone to grab the moving part they could get a hand tangled in if they were trying to steal it! LOL

Rising Sun*
04-13-2008, 09:32 AM
"They used the baths as toilets (not ever having had any) and washed food and themselves in the Loos. When the chain was pulled and the potatoes and vegetables flushed away, they shot all the basins in the belief that someone was stealing them."

Can anyone verify that statement, just for curiosity sake?
No matter what level of Siberian conscription there was in Russia, I can't hardly imagine they were really that stupid.

Who knows?

It might be apocryphal, but there are plenty of versions of similar events including in one the other links in my last post. Also these.


However there were comedic episodes also. This story was related to me by my good friend Joszi, who was living in Budapest when the Russians "liberated" Hungary. His family was forced to billet Russian soldiers in their house. One day, Joszi heard the rat-a-tat of a machine gun upstairs. He discovered a Russian who had been washing his wooden false teeth in the toilet (he had never seen one before, so thought it was a wash basin). Unfortunately, the soldier had hit the flush button and his precious teeth went down. In his fury he blasted the toilet to pieces with his gun. The soldier claimed that a demon had snatched his teeth, so he killed it. Joszi everafter referred to these soldiers as "far beyond the mountains of civilization". http://frosthitstherhubarb.blogspot.com/2005/11/we-remember-bud-talkinghorn-wwii.html


See also
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=q4xUU7F7JZkC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=toilet+russia+soldier+wwii&source=web&ots=CNEdmqE5bw&sig=0CNyiOeSFJVaYChZbdM-7zC1eWk&hl=en



Can you imagine, and I saw this with my own eyes, they came to the house where there was a normal flush toilet, and they somehow thought this was a source of water, so they went there and washed their faces in the toilet. http://www.radio.cz/en/article/65174

Given the conduct of some current migrants to Australia when encountering modern Western appliances for the first time, it's plausible.

Nickdfresh
04-13-2008, 10:19 AM
That's absolute true lady Gracie.
Actualy nobody even try to steal somthing on that photo.
Probably the soldier even help the woman to repair their bycicle.
But some of out american friends still do have the tend to believe selectively in nazy propogand :rolleyes:


Yes yes, post-war Nazi propaganda. And Polish, Hungarian, Czech/Slovakian, Lithuanian propaganda too...


Oh really Nickdfresh:)
There were no any "soviet soldiers recollections" about Violence and rapings toward the germans womans.
Show me at least the one?
P.S. have again forgot my nickname?
Old sclerotic;)


I think I posted one, and you wished her raped and killed for it...

Chevan
04-13-2008, 11:16 AM
If the Soviets behaved properly in the Soviet areas of occupation, why would German women need to form liaisons with Soviet soldiers for safety?

There at least one very importaint reason- the criminal situation during the first mounth after the capitulation .
Don't forget there were not just the Soviet soldiers but and a hell lot of repatriates, former slaves who were coming back to their homelands.
This was about several millions of repatriants in the Soviet zone, And they had a hell not so much reasons to behave themself well toward the GErmans civils.
Thsy also commited the crimes.
The Beevour described it in their book "Berlin-downfall 1945".
Moreover the other very convincing reason - the food for thier children.
In fact the food supplies in the BErline wasn't so good and many of Soviet soldiers and officers give off part of personal rations to thier "girfriends".This fact Beevour also has described.
BTW allies made the same- they buyed the "German's love" for food.

Chevan
04-13-2008, 11:27 AM
Yes yes, post-war Nazi propaganda. And Polish, Hungarian, Czech/Slovakian, Lithuanian propaganda too...

Romania...
How could you forget it?:)
Man every side/country/ethnical group has its own peopogand.
I 've already said - this doesn't mean false, but this is bit biased and hyperbolic as any propogand


I think I posted one, and you wished her raped and killed for it...
Never wished to rape someone except may be you..once :)
BTW what was it the "Soviet recollection" that you have posted?

Nickdfresh
04-13-2008, 11:55 AM
Romania...
How could you forget it?:)
Man every side/country/ethnical group has its own peopogand.
I 've already said - this doesn't mean false, but this is bit biased and hyperbolic as any propogand

Can we extend this to the Soviet Union as well?


Never wished to rape someone except may be you..once :)
BTW what was it the "Soviet recollection" that you have posted?

Well, send over some more Russian girls like the ones that worked here last summer, and then they can rape me all they want...:)

I believe one recollection was of the female Journalist working with the Red Army while another was of a Soviet lieutenant...

Chevan
04-13-2008, 12:22 PM
Can we extend this to the Soviet Union as well?

Sure you can...;)
We can extend it over USA if you wish..
For instance the raping and killing of Indians or Phillipinos...;)


Well, send over some more Russian girls like the ones that worked here last summer, and then they can rape me all they want...:)

Be carefull with that "russian" girls..
You was almost married ONCE...don't do the stupid mistake again..


I believe one recollection was of the female Journalist working with the Red Army while another was of a Soviet lieutenant...
What does it mean - "you bellieve"?
Who was that mythical lieutenant?

Nickdfresh
04-13-2008, 12:34 PM
Sure you can...;)
We can extend it over USA if you wish..
For instance the raping and killing of Indians or Phillipinos...;)

Wrong wars.

And if you look hard enough, there is in fact US political cartoons that unapologetically celebrated the annihilation of Moro villages in the Philippines (one is printed in "Flyboys") So little was done to "cover up" the typical racist colonial tactics used by any power at the turn of the last two centuries. Ones that saw the occident residents as something less than human. There's little question that US troops committed egregious human rights violations there. But then again, I do think some of the earlier death rates have been revised downward and many of the deaths can be attributed to the fact that the conflict was as much a Filipino civil war as it was a case of US counterinsurgency pacification..

BTW, you could add the US Civil War to that, much like the Russian Civil War, there was a good deal of bitterness that led to harsh reprisal tactics...


Be carefull with that "russian" girls..
You was almost married ONCE...don't do the stupid mistake again..

Oh, they're not here to get "married" nor do they want to stay usually, just to see the US and attend post graduate universities...


What does it mean - "you bellieve"?
Who was that mythical lieutenant?

I'll get back this, he was a writer and a protege of Solzenitzen who served in the naval infantry...

Chevan
04-13-2008, 12:49 PM
Wrong wars.

But whole ww2 was a wrong war. wasn't it?


And if you look hard enough, there is in fact US political cartoons that unapologetically celebrated the annihilation of Moro villages in the Philippines (one is printed in "Flyboys") So little was done to "cover up" the typical racist colonial tactics used by any power at the turn of the last two centuries. Ones that saw the occident residents as something less than human. There's little question that US troops committed egregious human rights violations there. But then again, I do think some of the earlier death rates have been revised downward and many of the deaths can be attributed to the fact that the conflict was as much a Filipino civil war as it was a case of US counterinsurgency pacification..

Not bad pacification....General Jacob Hurd Smith ordered..
I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States"


BTW, you could add the US Civil War to that, much like the Russian Civil War, there was a good deal of bitterness that led to harsh reprisal tactics...
So were there no rapes?



Oh, they're not here to get "married" nor do they want to stay usually, just to see the US and attend post graduate universities...

They always tell they not plan to stay in USA.Until the one fool listen them..


I'll get back this, he was a writer and a protege of Solzenitzen who served in the naval infantry...
Protege of Solgenitsyn?
His lover or girfriend?

Dark1995
04-13-2008, 05:52 PM
I see a Russian solider steeling a german woman's bike because he doesn't have time to walk back to his post :D

imi
08-02-2008, 09:11 AM
a very gentle Ivan check the woman bicycle tire hardness.
b*st*rd

Neal Fortner
08-07-2008, 03:45 PM
Hi,

I have two questions on the following photo:

Do you know where, when in what circumstances it was taken?
What do you see is happening on this photo?


It looks like a Russian soldier trying to steal a bike in possibly Berlin. A lot of looting, hazing, raping, went on when the Russian took control of Germany at the end of World War II.

Egorka
08-07-2008, 04:39 PM
It looks like a Russian soldier trying to steal a bike in possibly Berlin. A lot of looting, hazing, raping, went on when the Russian took control of Germany at the end of World War II.
Right.
But why don't the people try to escape from the place where a bloodthirsty drunken Soviet soldier is on the rampage?
Why instead of getting away they watch with interest?

flamethrowerguy
08-07-2008, 08:18 PM
Right.
But why don't the people try to escape from the place where a bloodthirsty drunken Soviet soldier is on the rampage?
Why instead of getting away they watch with interest?

It's human, just like those curious onlookers at accident sites.

Krad42
08-08-2008, 09:29 AM
I think that nobody has taken into consideration the timing of the photo. In other words, was the photo taken towards the end of the confrontation or right at the beginning? If it was right at the beginning, people around them would have looked at tried to figure out what was going on. As the confrontation escalated, probably a good number of these onlookers would have scrambled about. If it was something as simple as the guy helping her with the tire, I doubt that it had gotten much attention at all.
The idea that Germans would have scrambled right away is ludicrous. While Germans were indeed afraid, I'm sure that there were individuals who wouldn't have just gotten on their knees and taken it. If this is Berlin in 1945, that bike was precious to that woman, which would explain why she wouldn't just let him have it without at least puting some effort into keeping it. It is a confrontation that she most likely lost, but all the power to her anyway!
And, by the way, I find earlier posts about German girls preferring Mongols over Allied somewhat offensive. These people were going through things that most of us can only imagine. It isn't a matter for jokes. I do understand that there seems to be a lot of testosterone here, but, as a woman and someone who has met people who suffered during the occupation, it isn't funny at all!

Egorka
08-08-2008, 02:11 PM
It's human, just like those curious onlookers at accident sites.
No-no.
The curious onlookers are only there exactly because they feel own security next the crush site.
The look only because they feel no danger to themselves.
Here is another situation...
so my point is that maybe the bystanders did not feel much danger?

Egorka
08-08-2008, 02:22 PM
The idea that Germans would have scrambled right away is ludicrous.
No it is not ludicrous. It is not specificly about Germans or any other nation.
It is only about the amount of terror and the resulting fear.
This picture indicates to me that the amount of suppression and terror imposed on German population in Soviet occupied zone was not on a high level.
Have in mind though, that this photo is most likely was taken in May or later, which means that the first period, where there indeed were many brutal vengians act comited by the RKKA, was over.


And, by the way, I find earlier posts about German girls preferring Mongols over Allied somewhat offensive.
What posts?


These people were going through things that most of us can only imagine. It isn't a matter for jokes.
Agreed absolutely.

Krad42
08-08-2008, 04:13 PM
Dear Igor,
I said that to expect Germans to have scrambled around was ludicrous because eventually the dust would have settled, suppression or not. The amount of terror allegedly displayed or not displayed would depend on when this photo was taken. As with most conflicts and resulting occupations, there is an initial fear. Eventually, that fear has to be put aside as life has to go on. If one lives in constant fear, one can't function and can't survive. I would venture to say that the first six months of occupation would have been the worse. After that, things would have eventually settled down as they obviously did. People learn to live with the situation.
If I understand correctly, your point is that because this photo shows no fear in their faces, then there wasn't as much suppression or fear as some of us might believe there was. Can we say by looking at a photo from the Vietnam era that there was no fear in the vietnamese people there? Can we say by looking at soldiers fighting, that they felt no fear? I'm sorry, but I'll just have to disagree. One just can't make those kinds of conclusions when you look at a photo sixty some years after the fact. Nazi sympathizers could use that same argument while looking at some photos. Perhaps what we see is resignation, not lack of fear. I guess we'll never really know.

flamethrowerguy
08-08-2008, 04:37 PM
Here is another situation...
so my point is that maybe the bystanders did not feel much danger?

That's one way to see it. But -in contrary to modern days- people back then had something like moral courage, meaning they would have helped the woman if there's no danger around. Who knows how many armed russian soldiers were standing behind the photograph.

Egorka
08-08-2008, 05:27 PM
That's one way to see it. But -in contrary to modern days- people back then had something like moral courage, meaning they would have helped the woman if there's no danger around. Who knows how many armed russian soldiers were standing behind the photograph.
Well, with all due respect, I would not overestimate people's moral courage in those times. There were deffinatly was some shortage of moral stuff.
Especially German... and Russian ones...

Dixie Devil
12-04-2008, 03:58 PM
Who tries to steal a bike by grabing the front tire? If he was trying to take it from the woman why not grab the handle bars? My guess would be a propaganda picture of a Soviet soldier being kind to the German people or maybe he is just actually trying to help the lady with her bike...

Terry_214
12-23-2008, 06:13 AM
A Russian soldier trying to steal a bike in Berlin. A lot of looting, hazing, raping, went on when the Russian took control of Germany at the end of World War II.

Why don't the people try to escape?
Escape where to? the next street where they are being shot at?

This picture was taken during the Russian occupation of Berlin. The population are so used to this kind of thing, they don't even look surprised, and if he's stealing bikes and you dont have a bike - why worry.

Lets not try to pretend that the Russians did not rape, murder and steal their way from the Ukranie right through to Berlin.

flamethrowerguy
12-23-2008, 07:00 AM
http://www.rosfoto.ru/photos/big/0028000/028206_363.jpg

I re-encountered this particular picture once more in a book lately mentioning an interesting assumption: The soldier covered by the soviet is soldier is supposed to be a G.I., telling by the headgear. Not unlikely since the pic allegedly derives from Berlin, shortly after the end of the war.

Rising Sun*
12-23-2008, 07:14 AM
One naturally assumes that the Soviet soldier is trying to take the bike from the (presumably) German woman.

How do we know it's not the other way around?

How do we know it's not a Soviet bike that is being rightfully reclaimed by the soldier?

It could be any number of things.

There's a famous photo of a striking woman walking down a street in Italy in the ?1950s and getting various lascivious responses from the men, including from memory one bloke gripping his wedding tackle through his pants. It confirms prejudices about dagoes being sex mad chauvinists. The only problem is that in recent years it has been alleged, or maybe confirmed, that it was a set up and everyone was acting a part.

How do we know that the bike photo isn't in the same category?

Egorka
01-05-2009, 06:17 AM
There's a famous photo of a striking woman walking down a street in Italy in the ?1950s and getting various lascivious responses from the men, including from memory one bloke gripping his wedding tackle through his pants. It confirms prejudices about dagoes being sex mad chauvinists. The only problem is that in recent years it has been alleged, or maybe confirmed, that it was a set up and everyone was acting a part.I actually somehow was always under impression that that impressive photo was indeed staged.

imi
08-14-2010, 04:34 AM
berlin 1945
a soviet soldier testing the wheels hardness the bicycle of a german woman

jungleguerilla
08-14-2010, 05:57 AM
Yes it's berlin in 1945. But it's a soviet soldier 'asking' a German woman out. As part of the Russian Rape of German Women.

Ivan K
09-16-2010, 12:27 AM
"Lady, a bike is the least of your problems now."

royal744
08-24-2013, 12:38 PM
That's one way to see it. But -in contrary to modern days- people back then had something like moral courage, meaning they would have helped the woman if there's no danger around. Who knows how many armed russian soldiers were standing behind the photograph.

If I remember the story correctly, my Mother was stopped along with many others at a German checkpoint in Holland. She had gone to "the country" hoping to barter for food. Bicycles were heaped in a huge pile and the Germans were going to put them in trucks and take them. There was a distraction and many rushed to grab the first bicycle in the pile they could get their hands on. My Mother said that she grabbed one that had a package in the basket, and rode off. The package turned out to contain a ham! The point of her story was the ham, not the bicycle. The last 6 months of war in Holland was hell. People were starving.

flamethrowerguy
08-24-2013, 04:55 PM
If I remember the story correctly, my Mother was stopped along with many others at a German checkpoint in Holland. She had gone to "the country" hoping to barter for food. Bicycles were heaped in a huge pile and the Germans were going to put them in trucks and take them.

It's still something we're hearing quite often when we are in the Netherlands (and we're going there frequently): "Ik wil mijn fiets terug!" (I want my bycicle back)

royal744
08-24-2013, 06:13 PM
It's still something we're hearing quite often when we are in the Netherlands (and we're going there frequently): "Ik wil mijn fiets terug!" (I want my bycicle back)

Maar jij kan het nit hebben. om dat het is van mij, je rotte moff...

royal744
08-24-2013, 06:14 PM
It's still something we're hearing quite often when we are in the Netherlands (and we're going there frequently): "Ik wil mijn fiets terug!" (I want my bycicle back)

Maar jij kan het niet hebben, om dat het is van mij, je rotte moff...

Wittmann
08-24-2013, 09:59 PM
A Russian Soldier trying to steal a bicycle , Berlin 1945. The picture was featured in LIFE Magazine, not sure which edition.

http://avanthard.wordpress.com/category/quotes/

http://www.anselm.edu/academic/history/hdubrulle/europe1945/2009/grading/food/fdwk02a.htm

http://www.navalofficer.com.au/berlin/

The Russian versions of the photo ensure that it was misunderstanding.


Russian Soldier Tries to Buy Bicycle from Woman in Berlin, 1945.

http://enews.md/blogs/view/3019/

From the site:
A misunderstanding ensues after a Russian soldier tries to buy a bucycle from a German woman in Berlin. After giving her money for the bike, the soldier assumes the deal has been struck. However the woman doesn't seem convinced.

Life Magazine Picture:
http://forum.meta.ua/topic/p/7299584.html


Rape Links:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080493/Stalins-army-rapists-The-brutal-war-crime-Russia-Germany-tried-ignore.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1382565/Red-Army-troops-raped-even-Russian-women-as-they-freed-them-from-camps.html

http://www.salon.com/2005/08/18/berlin_5/

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106687768

Just a few from the hundreds on the internet, took me 3 minutes to find those on dialup.

flamethrowerguy
08-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Maar jij kan het niet hebben, om dat het is van mij, je rotte moff...

Moff, Pruus, Adi...you name it. I used to live in the Netherlands for about a decade, my first wife was Dutch, I heard it all from her family...not that I ever bothered too much, resp. "het kan mij niet schelen!"

royal744
08-28-2013, 07:38 PM
Ik ook niet, flame...

Chunky
09-23-2013, 04:32 PM
halfords trying to get more customers, by getting them to have their tyres checked:)

DAMoeller60
01-28-2014, 12:16 PM
I do not think it is a movie. It is a real photo.
To my veig knowledge it is a RKKA soldier in Germany/Berlin????

I agree and I believe I've seen this photo bfore in one of my books concerning the fall / occupation of Berlin. I will check this weekend. More to follow.