What do you see?

[Egorka]

Hi,

I have two questions on the following photo:

Do you know where, when in what circumstances it was taken?
What do you see is happening on this photo?

[Major Walter Schmidt]

hmm... it looks like the guy tried to steal the bike.
maybe its a screenshot from a movie?

[George Eller]

-

I see a Russian soldier helping a lady to align the handlebar and front tire of her bicycle.

:)

-

[Egorka]

hmm... it looks like the guy tried to steal the bike.
maybe its a screenshot from a movie?
I do not think it is a movie. It is a real photo.
To my veig knowledge it is a RKKA soldier in Germany/Berlin????

[Richie B]

Hallo I've just joined so I thought I would write something.

I have seen this photo before [can't remeber where I'm afraid] captioned as a Soviet soldier attempting to steal the German woman's bicycle in Berlin 1945.

[Major Walter Schmidt]

Thus, the crappy buildings in the background...:)

[Panzerknacker]

I think that Egorka already know what was the situation, he just enjoyed to see our reactions. Just like "The master " topic. Well, there is hobbies more bizarres than this.

[Rising Sun*]

It's just a Russki feeling up the town bike.

Or it could be a Russki helping someone fix their bike. ;)

[MayberrySaint]

Drunken Ivan trying to steal a bike in Berlin, so he can bike on over to the girls youth hostel and continue his raping and pillaging...

[Nickdfresh]

A glorious soldier of the Great Patriotic War gallantly withstands the Fraulein Berlin bicycle offensive of of 1945. Obviously the decadent tart is just trying to knock him him to the ground so she can have her way with him!

[Rising Sun*]

A glorious soldier of the Great Patriotic War gallantly withstands the Fraulein Berlin bicycle offensive of of 1945.

:D :D :D

[Major Walter Schmidt]

Maybe she's stealing the bike from him. Anybody good on WWII soviet bikes?

[Egorka]

I think that Egorka already know what was the situation, he just enjoyed to see our reactions. Just like "The master " topic. Well, there is hobbies more bizarres than this.
I never said I did not know what this picture depicts. I just asked what other might know more presice. And I also asked what they see, what is they observation of this picture.

Regarding hobbies... Well, your psychoanalytic skill sucks, my friend.

[Egorka]

For those who does not get it is a photo of an episode where an RKKA soldier trying to rob that woman for her bike. Something like that.

Well I actually have one observasion that I find interesting about this photo.
Look at the faces of the german public. There are quite many people on that photo. I do not see much fear on their faces. Half of the public is standing just 1 meter away and watches the event unfolding. The other half passes by. Seemingly calm. The face of the victim does not express much fear as well. Rather determination to stand up for the property.

Considering that alledgedly the barbarian hordes "... raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)" this is an surprising to see that they are not trying to escape the potentially dangerous place where the conflict involving a occupational force is about to unfold.

What do you think?

[Nickdfresh]

Well, a picture says a thousand words. Mostly:

"Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened Nothing to see here it never happened ....

[Panzerknacker]

Jesus Christ... :shock: with this only pic you try to deny the multiple accusations/whitnesses against the Red army, let me say that your case is at list weak.

The crimes happen and also happen the crimes from the German side, I am pretty sure that the SS and Heer got his quote of raping too.

Man, I think is time to grow up and accept the simple facts, your are not too young already, you have children...that is what are you teaching to them ? no good at all. Probably you are too blinded to realize but this is utterly ridiculous.

Is this the today fashion in Russia to deny all the fact of history and change it for a more sweetened variant ?

That is worst than my Freud skills.

[bd88]

it's a well known photo about Soviet occupation in Berlin after the capitulation. I think that Soviet soldier just want to show the defeated who's the winner of the war. what i want to know is what happen to that woman after this photo was taken

[Egorka]

Panzerknacker,

Please read your post again. Willingly or not, you are blindly pedaling your point of view (whatever it is) without any regard to what is being said by others.
Listen to me again... carefuly... and try to understand: Nothing in your reply has anything to do with my comments here or my position.
You are fighting with the ghosts of your own interpretation of other people's point of view.
Please think about it.

[Egorka]

Hi bd88! Welcome to the forum!
it's a well known photo about Soviet occupation in Berlin after the capitulation. I think that Soviet soldier just want to show the defeated who's the winner of the war.
Yes, I know it is a known photo. It was among other featured in the A.Beevors book about the fall of Berlin.
I was curious if one knew more presise when and where it was taken. And were it was first published.

what i want to know is what happen to that woman after this photo was taken
What do you think happened to her and why do think that?
Waht about the witnesses and other by passers on the photo?

[Egorka]

here I found uncroped photo (with a teenager in shorts on the right)
http://www.rosfoto.ru/photos/big/0028000/028206_363.jpg

[Rising Sun*]

Panzerknacker,

.....

Nothing in your reply has anything to do with my comments here ...

Agreed.

[Rising Sun*]

I was curious if one knew more presise when and where it was taken. And were it was first published.

I think we've been through this on some other photo (can't remember photo or if it was you or someone else) about them being capable of different interpretations, but, seriously, the photo could just as easily represent the Soviet soldier doing something to help the woman fix her bike.

Without full knowledge and context, how do we know that he's not retrieving something stolen from him?

And captions don't always help. Such as this one to the picture

Bike Fight
A Russian soldier involved in a misunderstanding with a German woman in Berlin, over a bicycle he wished to buy from her. (Photo by Keystone/Getty Images)

by KeystoneSunday December 31st, 1944 reference: 2660955http://www.jamd.com/image/g/2660955?partner=Google&epmid=1

Does that look like Berlin on 31 December 1944?

If it was, no bloody wonder he wants to get a bike and pedal like hell out of there, because he's months ahead of the rest of the Soviet army and the only Russian soldier in Berlin, without a rifle. :D

If it really was taken or published on 31 December 1944, it wasn't Berlin.

[Egorka]

Without full knowledge and context, how do we know that he's not retrieving something stolen from him?
That is true. No doubt.
Though it is like in a court: some evidense is direct and some are circumstantial. The later ones are not proving a point but together with others evidense bring light on the situation.
That is what I am after. I see a photo and I can not help thinking. I wish I could stop my mental process but all my attempts are failing. Not even your inspiration by example helps me, Rising Sun. :)

And captions don't always help. Such as this one to the picture
Does that look like Berlin on 31 December 1944?
If it was, no bloody wonder he wants to get a bike and pedal like hell out of there, because he's months ahead of the rest of the Soviet army and the only Russian soldier in Berlin, without a rifle. :D
If it really was taken or published on 31 December 1944, it wasn't Berlin.
Really cool stuff!
Firstly, notice that this is yet the third croping variation of this picture. The man on the left is fully in the frame.

And you are obviously right about the misallignment between the date, place and the caption.

[Panzerknacker]

Panzerknacker,

Please read your post again. Willingly or not, you are blindly pedaling your point of view (whatever it is) without any regard to what is being said by others.
Listen to me again... carefuly... and try to understand: Nothing in your reply has anything to do with my comments here or my position.
You are fighting with the ghosts of your own interpretation of other people's point of view.
Please think about it.


If you like to think is fine to me, I believe that most people here are aware of the intentions behind your earlier post and the rest of the pictures.

Hopefully this is only a rare and personal point of view, hopefully is not the majority of the russian population.

[Egorka]

... I believe that most people here are aware of the intentions behind your earlier post and the rest of the pictures.
Please, tell me what exactly was my intention with the earlier post (I guess you mean "the Master" thread). I would like to learn from my mistakes and improve on my personality. So I would apprciate if you tell me what mistake I made by creating that thread.

By the way, what exactly do you mean by "the rest of the pictures"? Which ones is that?

Hopefully this is only a rare and personal point of view, hopefully is not the majority of the russian population.
Pesonal point of view... I hope you will tell me what exactly my point of view is that is hopefully a minority one. Please tell me what is my personal point of view.

[Rising Sun*]

Maybe the photo covers an event like this? :D

A Russian soldier was riding along the Berlin street upon his bicycle when he saw, coming from the opposite direction, a German also riding a bicycle but without his hands upon the handlebars. The Russian thought it was a ‘special’ bicycle and made the German exchange bicycles. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/88/a3101888.shtml

[Chevan]

Well I actually have one observasion that I find interesting about this photo.
Look at the faces of the german public. There are quite many people on that photo. I do not see much fear on their faces. Half of the public is standing just 1 meter away and watches the event unfolding. The other half passes by. Seemingly calm. The face of the victim does not express much fear as well. Rather determination to stand up for the property.
What do you think?

Hello komerades:)
Actually this picture looks wery strange.
Its seems womans behind are .. disappointed:)
The other interesting thing is who did shot this picture?
I doubt that the soviet photographer will shot the violence toward the Germans civils.
Also if it is allien photographer- this is very unlikely that the Soviet soldiers would so roughly robbed the Germans in the streets.
Becouse in the april of 1945 the special order of Stavka treated by punishment for every soldiers for violence.

Sure the bike is very desirable for russians at that time.
I mean most of them did not even see the bikes befor.

[Chevan]

Jesus Christ... :shock: with this only pic you try to deny the multiple accusations/whitnesses against the Red army, let me say that your case is at list weak.

The crimes happen and also happen the crimes from the German side, I am pretty sure that the SS and Heer got his quote of raping too.

Man, I think is time to grow up and accept the simple facts, your are not too young already, you have children...that is what are you teaching to them ? no good at all. Probably you are too blinded to realize but this is utterly ridiculous.
.................................................. .........
Hopefully this is only a rare and personal point of view, hopefully is not the majority of the russian population.
.

Damn ... our friend Panzerette still confuse the reality with imaginary:shock:
Thank you for touching care about our children.. but i have to distress you.
Your attack at the the Egorka is simply foolish, do you realise it yourself?
He just asked the question- you began the hysteria:)
Relax buddy.
We all know you could be a good lad:)

[Rising Sun*]

Your attack at the the Egorka is simply foolish, do you realise it yourself?
He just asked the question- you began the hysteria:)


Yeah, but aren't you glad to see you can go away for a few weeks and come back to find that nothing has changed? ;)

I almost missed you while you were away. :D

[Chevan]

Yeah, but aren't you glad to see you can go away for a few weeks and come back to find that nothing has changed? ;)

I almost missed you while you were away. :D
Sure i/m glad that everybody is on its own places and nothing has changed.
Especially your feeling of humour:)

[Panzerknacker]

Thank you for touching care about our children.. but i have to distress you.
Your attack at the the Egorka is simply foolish, do you realise it yourself?



Wrong, I am not attacking anybody, I just want to show how ridiculous Egorka looks saying that this pic is a proof that the german population did not fear the russian soldiers...this pic. And he also mixed it with the raping question...just too silly.

But I am wiser man now, the next time I will not bother to look into the next tricky topic that are so liked by EK.

[Chevan]

how ridiculous Egorka looks saying that this pic is a proof that the german population did not fear the russian soldiers...this pic.
Where he told that this pic is the proof that population did not fear the Soviet soldiers?
Nobody here are not deny the facts of rapings or violence in GENERAL, but i ask you again- where do you see fear in this pic?
Sorry but it seems you are a bit biased here.

[Egorka]

Welcome back, Chevan!!! :)

[Egorka]

I just want to show how ridiculous Egorka looks saying that this pic is a proof that the german population did not fear the russian soldiers...this pic.
And he also mixed it with the raping question...just too silly.
Well the fear existed no doubt. It existed even before RKKA entered the German territory, you know better then me about the Geobel's scare propaganda compaign towards the German public where he said that those barbarians will come and kill and rape everyone. That is why there were so many German refugees into the West of Germany.
And the actuall crimes commited by Soviet soldiers obviously added to the existing fear.

So knowing all that I personaly can not understand this picture. You can see your self that the people are not afraid too much of what is happening just in front of them. Can you see it too?

But I am wiser man now, the next time I will not bother to look into the next tricky topic that are so liked by EK.
Yes, very tricky indeed! Watch out for me... and my children... I teach them to be mean and hate Argentinians that wear glasses and drive old cars and like tanks... BOOOOOOOO!

;)

[Panzerknacker]

I teach them to be mean and hate Argentinians that wear glasses and drive old cars and like tanks


That would be the less damaging of your teaching to the poor inocent kid. :cool:

[Jan Fiala]

Sure the bike is very desirable for russians at that time.
Yes, timepieces were very desirable too. Very importatn fact is that Soviets didn't prey only Germans. These Mongolians plundered anywere they came.
That picture looks it was taken in winter. So it is not Berlin. Maybe it was taken in winter 1945/46 (or late)...

[Rising Sun*]

That picture looks it was taken in winter. So it is not Berlin. Maybe it was taken in winter 1945/46 (or late)...

I've found the current copyright owner of the image, who says it was taken in December 1944 in Berlin. Click on the image here for details.
http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?contractUrl=1&language=en-US&family=editorial&p=bike%20fight%20russian%20berlin&src=standard#

Either the date or the place is wrong.

Assuming the date is correct, where would the Russians be in December 1944 that doesn't have snow and isn't terribly cold, judging by the clothing?

[Egorka]

I've found the current copyright owner of the image, who says it was taken in December 1944 in Berlin. Click on the image here for details.
http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?contractUrl=1&language=en-US&family=editorial&p=bike%20fight%20russian%20berlin&src=standard#

Either the date or the place is wrong.

Assuming the date is correct, where would the Russians be in December 1944 that doesn't have snow and isn't terribly cold, judging by the clothing?

Getty images do not own the actual photograph. They just owe an electronic copy of it. The photograph itself should be in public demain I beleive.
You can also note that the picture at Getty images is not original as it is just a cropped image (the teenages in shorts on the right is only halfshown).

I think that it is not winter. The soldier seem to be wearing the sommer uniform and the guy wears shorts - does not seem to be cool out there.
Summer uniform 1942 - 1945. (http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/images/arm_22_bw.jpg)
source: http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/arm22.htm


So I do not think we got closer.
I was told that posibly this peacture was displayed at an photo exebition somewhere around 1995. A guy will try to check the excebition catalog. It might take him some weeks though as the catalog in an other town.

[Egorka]

One more victim of the mongolian horde member. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3313086%2c3313081%2c2658 544%2c3324908%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c3325522%2c320 0297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c3313192%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c3313180%2c342 4098%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c3270567%2c3242472%2c264 3863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c3072082%2c333 3790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c3137306%2c33 13181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c3274820%2c50 779867%2c3318785%2c3418232%2c3400502%2c3268646%2c3 142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3425615%2c3 313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c2658541%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3280653%2c3 334591|0&id=3313192)

The Western Allies and the mongolian horde members having fun (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|3379404%2c3280653%2c3334591%2c3263358%2c3318 152%2c3313194%2c3313117%2c3318796%2c3318792%2c2641 661%2c3422387%2c2667600%2c2667686%2c3379686%2c3359 414%2c3242265%2c2660917%2c3311596%2c3069239%2c3367 045%2c3139771%2c2643976%2c2672938%2c2658545%2c3248 128%2c52778700%2c3335548%2c52778719%2c52778680%2c5 2778717%2c3380085%2c3380046%2c3324175%2c3242467%2c 3276403%2c3064168%2c3429733%2c3064167%2c50499152%2 c3333996%2c3239665%2c3313079%2c3313131%2c3313191%2 c2666500%2c2658566%2c3071572%2c3401366%2c56256327% 2c56624186%2c3247139%2c3262547%2c3322039%2c3321672 %2c51949403%2c3305429%2c3325690%2c3231904%2c332059 7%2c2695461|0&id=2667686)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the German woman (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3359197)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the Allied officer (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3142685)

The Mongolian horde members desperately trying to fool the allied officer by forcing him to drinks and loose control so that they can get to know the Allied secrets. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|50603986%2c50626647%2c52774955%2c52774958%2c 3068270%2c1301672%2c79655705%2c53376574%2c53377089 %2c52755927%2c53376540%2c78987828%2c79655657%2c790 12012%2c79012041%2c52774941%2c3201306%2c3418241%2c 53376570%2c3233108%2c53370178%2c53376582%2c5337650 3%2c78962171%2c53376572%2c53376537%2c53376501%2c53 374501%2c3066767%2c53376588%2c52770985%2c78989531% 2c52774990%2c53372276%2c51400551%2c52061353%2c5062 6615%2c80415001%2c50499132%2c52778331%2c52778326%2 c3395951%2c50626603%2c52061256%2c52060788%2c520607 90%2c72474200%2c52060796%2c52060795%2c52060780%2c5 2060797%2c56684226%2c56684184%2c50626596%2c5062661 3%2c74950360%2c71715021%2c50499139%2c50626616%2c56 702196%2c56692713%2c52043053%2c51898630%2c76552358 %2c56684188%2c51084036%2c51084029%2c3426940%2c5337 7090%2c3068631%2c3068630%2c72430998%2c53377210%2c3 426951%2c77977494%2c71652980%2c3068628%2c52774995% 2c71652993%2c73134995%2c73135011%2c73545685%2c5264 2387%2c73135007%2c3382662%2c3405088%2c53373293%2c5 0499130%2c50864607%2c79655576%2c50626654%2c5049914 4%2c50499149%2c50499141%2c52973135%2c50499120%2c51 400742%2c50626646%2c50626600%2c50626631|0&id=3426951)

[Rising Sun*]

Mongolian hordes put stolen bicycles to military use.

http://www.jamd.com/image/g/50779873?partner=Google&epmid=1

[Rising Sun*]

How the Americans did it.

Sirs:

You feel that the Russian soldier [TIME, Aug. 20 (1945)] "thrusting a fistful of rubles" while "liberating" a German bicycle is "confused perhaps by the peculiar customs of an acquisitive society."

You may be right. For in all similar "liberations" by American troops of German bicycles, automobiles and household goods which we have witnessed, the rubles were entirely omitted.

(T/4) PHILIP JOHNSON (T/5) SIGMUND H. STEMBLER (T/5) GEORGE GRANT CARR (T/4) ROBERT B. NOTESTEIN (T/5) ROBERT J. SHAUGHNESSY

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,776125-4,00.html

[Chevan]

One more victim of the mongolian horde member. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3313086%2c3313081%2c2658 544%2c3324908%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c3325522%2c320 0297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c3313192%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c3313180%2c342 4098%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c3270567%2c3242472%2c264 3863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c3072082%2c333 3790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c3137306%2c33 13181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c3274820%2c50 779867%2c3318785%2c3418232%2c3400502%2c3268646%2c3 142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3425615%2c3 313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c2658541%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3280653%2c3 334591|0&id=3313192)

The Western Allies and the mongolian horde members having fun (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|3379404%2c3280653%2c3334591%2c3263358%2c3318 152%2c3313194%2c3313117%2c3318796%2c3318792%2c2641 661%2c3422387%2c2667600%2c2667686%2c3379686%2c3359 414%2c3242265%2c2660917%2c3311596%2c3069239%2c3367 045%2c3139771%2c2643976%2c2672938%2c2658545%2c3248 128%2c52778700%2c3335548%2c52778719%2c52778680%2c5 2778717%2c3380085%2c3380046%2c3324175%2c3242467%2c 3276403%2c3064168%2c3429733%2c3064167%2c50499152%2 c3333996%2c3239665%2c3313079%2c3313131%2c3313191%2 c2666500%2c2658566%2c3071572%2c3401366%2c56256327% 2c56624186%2c3247139%2c3262547%2c3322039%2c3321672 %2c51949403%2c3305429%2c3325690%2c3231904%2c332059 7%2c2695461|0&id=2667686)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the German woman (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3359197)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the Allied officer (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3142685)

The Mongolian horde members desperately trying to fool the allied officer by forcing him to drinks and loose control so that they can get to know the Allied secrets. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|50603986%2c50626647%2c52774955%2c52774958%2c 3068270%2c1301672%2c79655705%2c53376574%2c53377089 %2c52755927%2c53376540%2c78987828%2c79655657%2c790 12012%2c79012041%2c52774941%2c3201306%2c3418241%2c 53376570%2c3233108%2c53370178%2c53376582%2c5337650 3%2c78962171%2c53376572%2c53376537%2c53376501%2c53 374501%2c3066767%2c53376588%2c52770985%2c78989531% 2c52774990%2c53372276%2c51400551%2c52061353%2c5062 6615%2c80415001%2c50499132%2c52778331%2c52778326%2 c3395951%2c50626603%2c52061256%2c52060788%2c520607 90%2c72474200%2c52060796%2c52060795%2c52060780%2c5 2060797%2c56684226%2c56684184%2c50626596%2c5062661 3%2c74950360%2c71715021%2c50499139%2c50626616%2c56 702196%2c56692713%2c52043053%2c51898630%2c76552358 %2c56684188%2c51084036%2c51084029%2c3426940%2c5337 7090%2c3068631%2c3068630%2c72430998%2c53377210%2c3 426951%2c77977494%2c71652980%2c3068628%2c52774995% 2c71652993%2c73134995%2c73135011%2c73545685%2c5264 2387%2c73135007%2c3382662%2c3405088%2c53373293%2c5 0499130%2c50864607%2c79655576%2c50626654%2c5049914 4%2c50499149%2c50499141%2c52973135%2c50499120%2c51 400742%2c50626646%2c50626600%2c50626631|0&id=3426951)

Ha Ha Ha
Excellent collection of photos( i have never seen it befor):)
Now we know for sure that Germans girls prefered the mongols instead the allies soldiers.
This is not surprising ,if keep in mind the fact that the Goebels propoganda PRed them as super/mega sexy heroes , who ready "to make love" with everything that move.Even the 80 years grannies:):D
The allies soldiers were chikens in comparition with soviet ones in this aspect:)

[Kato]

One more victim of the mongolian horde member. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3313086%2c3313081%2c2658 544%2c3324908%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c3325522%2c320 0297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c3313192%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c3313180%2c342 4098%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c3270567%2c3242472%2c264 3863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c3072082%2c333 3790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c3137306%2c33 13181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c3274820%2c50 779867%2c3318785%2c3418232%2c3400502%2c3268646%2c3 142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3425615%2c3 313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c2658541%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3280653%2c3 334591|0&id=3313192)

The Western Allies and the mongolian horde members having fun (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|3379404%2c3280653%2c3334591%2c3263358%2c3318 152%2c3313194%2c3313117%2c3318796%2c3318792%2c2641 661%2c3422387%2c2667600%2c2667686%2c3379686%2c3359 414%2c3242265%2c2660917%2c3311596%2c3069239%2c3367 045%2c3139771%2c2643976%2c2672938%2c2658545%2c3248 128%2c52778700%2c3335548%2c52778719%2c52778680%2c5 2778717%2c3380085%2c3380046%2c3324175%2c3242467%2c 3276403%2c3064168%2c3429733%2c3064167%2c50499152%2 c3333996%2c3239665%2c3313079%2c3313131%2c3313191%2 c2666500%2c2658566%2c3071572%2c3401366%2c56256327% 2c56624186%2c3247139%2c3262547%2c3322039%2c3321672 %2c51949403%2c3305429%2c3325690%2c3231904%2c332059 7%2c2695461|0&id=2667686)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the German woman (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3359197)

A Mongolian horde member trying to cheat the Allied officer (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|2660955%2c3359197%2c3324908%2c3313086%2c3313 081%2c2658544%2c3313192%2c3068760%2c52778715%2c332 5522%2c3200297%2c3311250%2c2669148%2c3313203%2c334 9241%2c3318796%2c3337379%2c3285968%2c2658563%2c331 3180%2c3424098%2c3350454%2c2644131%2c3424779%2c327 0567%2c2643863%2c3142685%2c3067516%2c2673341%2c307 2082%2c3333790%2c3251523%2c71106750%2c2660942%2c31 37306%2c3313181%2c3375496%2c3400690%2c3268315%2c32 74820%2c50779867%2c3137254%2c3276403%2c3400502%2c3 268646%2c3142945%2c3311252%2c3306236%2c2674384%2c3 425615%2c3313130%2c3304931%2c3380633%2c3304888%2c3 366939%2c3134865%2c2644155%2c3282073%2c3379404%2c3 333489|0&id=3142685)

The Mongolian horde members desperately trying to fool the allied officer by forcing him to drinks and loose control so that they can get to know the Allied secrets. (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|50603986%2c50626647%2c52774955%2c52774958%2c 3068270%2c1301672%2c79655705%2c53376574%2c53377089 %2c52755927%2c53376540%2c78987828%2c79655657%2c790 12012%2c79012041%2c52774941%2c3201306%2c3418241%2c 53376570%2c3233108%2c53370178%2c53376582%2c5337650 3%2c78962171%2c53376572%2c53376537%2c53376501%2c53 374501%2c3066767%2c53376588%2c52770985%2c78989531% 2c52774990%2c53372276%2c51400551%2c52061353%2c5062 6615%2c80415001%2c50499132%2c52778331%2c52778326%2 c3395951%2c50626603%2c52061256%2c52060788%2c520607 90%2c72474200%2c52060796%2c52060795%2c52060780%2c5 2060797%2c56684226%2c56684184%2c50626596%2c5062661 3%2c74950360%2c71715021%2c50499139%2c50626616%2c56 702196%2c56692713%2c52043053%2c51898630%2c76552358 %2c56684188%2c51084036%2c51084029%2c3426940%2c5337 7090%2c3068631%2c3068630%2c72430998%2c53377210%2c3 426951%2c77977494%2c71652980%2c3068628%2c52774995% 2c71652993%2c73134995%2c73135011%2c73545685%2c5264 2387%2c73135007%2c3382662%2c3405088%2c53373293%2c5 0499130%2c50864607%2c79655576%2c50626654%2c5049914 4%2c50499149%2c50499141%2c52973135%2c50499120%2c51 400742%2c50626646%2c50626600%2c50626631|0&id=3426951)


It is funny that Mongols are literally translated as big, great ones. The word Bolsheviks has the similar meaning.

[Egorka]

Mongolian hordes put stolen bicycles to military use.

http://www.jamd.com/image/g/50779873?partner=Google&epmid=1

Eahhh! And note the battle drum and the horn that the Mongolian horde is using to evoke the mighty shadow spirits before the battle. Spooky stuff... :neutral:

[Egorka]

It is funny that Mongols are literally translated as big, great ones. The word Bolsheviks has the similar meaning.

Kato, the life it self in fact is just one huge conspiracy against itself. :)

[Chevan]

Eahhh! And note the battle drum and the horn that the Mongolian horde is using to evoke the mighty shadow spirits before the battle. Spooky stuff... :neutral:

And call the wild syberian bears for the help.....

[Nickdfresh]

Ha Ha Ha
Excellent collection of photos( i have never seen it befor):)
Now we know for sure that Germans girls prefered the mongols instead the allies soldiers.
This is not surprising ,if keep in mind the fact that the Goebels propoganda PRed them as super/mega sexy heroes , who ready "to make love" with everything that move.Even the 80 years grannies:):D
The allies soldiers were chikens in comparition with soviet ones in this aspect:)


I thought Soviets were Allied soldiers...

And, should you really trivialize mass-rapings like this? And not all of the rape victims were women...

[Chevan]

I thought Soviets were Allied soldiers...

Really?
So why mst Churchill had ordered to develop the plan "Unthinkble" to attack the "ally" Nick?
From of pure humanism?
Its not me to tell you about:)

And, should you really trivialize mass-rapings like this? And not all of the rape victims were women...

Yea some of victims were the mens:)
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

[Nickdfresh]

Really?
So why mst Churchill had ordered to develop the plan "Unthinkble" to attack the "ally" Nick?
From of pure humanism?
Its not me to tell you about:)


Well, that Churchill could be a tad silly at times. But "Unthinkable" was just contingency planning, which is hardly unusual. And I'm sure the benevolent Stalin never, ever had the Red Army draw up War plans against the West prior to the end of WWII?

Yea some of victims were the mens:)
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

Actually, I believe in Beaver.:) Who also documents German atrocities against the Soviets in the book "The Battle for Stalingrad," which I recently picked up, I presume?

And of course I believe it without any doubts. Nor do I doubt that Goebbels is culpable in the rapes because he helped start the cycle...

[Rising Sun*]

As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

Goebbels wasn't around to witness what happened after May 1945.

For a well researched and referenced account, there's about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark's The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.

There was a long history of Soviet rapes, often followed by murder of the victims, in Germany, and east of it as the Soviets advanced (a serious problem in Hungary, from memory), and they were still a problem as late as 1947. They weren't representative of all Soviet soldiers but reflected the attitudes or poor leadership in some units and formations, to marshal level, and going right up to Stalin until he realised that alienating the potentially productive civilian population in some areas by fucking them to death wasn't in the USSR's interests.

Like it or not, some Soviet soldiers and units were just raping and pillaging for a couple of years in Berlin and there are documented accounts of Soviets raping very young girls, aged twelve for sure but I think down to eight or nine, and women in their eighties.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.

[Chevan]

Well, that Churchill could be a tad silly at times. But "Unthinkable" was just contingency planning, which is hardly unusual. And I'm sure the benevolent Stalin never, ever had the Red Army draw up War plans against the West prior to the end of WWII?

So try to find this mythical plan for us dear Nick.
If you can:)

Actually, I believe in Beaver.:) Who also documents German atrocities against the Soviets in the book "The Battle for Stalingrad," which I recently picked up, I presume?

This is not "Stalingrad" but "Berlin 1945:downfall" that i recently have read also.
Where BEvoour tell about "hupotetic" Stalins plans toward west.
But it was his menthal conclusions- not a "documents".

And of course I believe it without any doubts. Nor do I doubt that Goebbels is culpable in the rapes because he helped start the cycle...
But i still see a serious objections.
Don't forget the book of historians there are just a versions.
For instance the so called "historian" Resun/Suvorov wrote a utter bul..t but many in west still believe him:)

[Egorka]

For a well researched and referenced account, there's about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark's The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.
Goes in to my reading Queue after the Resun's "Ledokol" and Doctor Goebels diary 1941.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.
Yes. Those cases were numerous. But again, you can call me whatever but for me it makes difference to know if it was 20K, 200K or 2000K rape victims.
Obviously we will never know the number but we should try to comprehend the scale. Because the scale of the events tells us something about the what it was like back than.

[Nickdfresh]

So try to find this mythical plan for us dear Nick.
If you can:)

I've read the plan as I posted in a thread about it if you recall. And I said "contigency" meaning it was not a definitive plan meant to be carried out like a hypothetical "what if."

I never said it didn't exist...

This is not "Stalingrad" but "Berlin 1945:downfall" that i recently have read also.
Where BEvoour tell about "hupotetic" Stalins plans toward west.
But it was his menthal conclusions- not a "documents".

But i still see a serious objections.
Don't forget the book of historians there are just a versions.
For instance the so called "historian" Resun/Suvorov wrote a utter bul..t but many in west still believe him:)

I never said "mental" figments of Churchill, I said "war plans." Every country has hypothetical war plans to what they perceive as potential threats. A Canadian Army officer even wrote up a plan to invade the United States as late as after WWI, with the help of the Royal Navy. Does that mean these plans were seriously considered as a course of action? No...

And I'd bet the Soviets had a similar war plan to keep going West, if they felt threatened enough. And if the US-UK did attack the Soviet Union, they would have encounter a hell of a lot of their own equipment types and materials..

My point is that Beaver wrote both books and is not some mere Nazi-apologist, crackpot cunt like David Irving. He has documented the atrocities on all sides and cannot be distilled down to some political agendist out to defame the Red Army --as you infer. I suggest you read RS*'s post above carefully...

[Chevan]

Goebbels wasn't around to witness what happened after May 1945.

For a well researched and referenced account, there's about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark's The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.

There was a long history of Soviet rapes, often followed by murder of the victims, in Germany, and east of it as the Soviets advanced (a serious problem in Hungary, from memory), and they were still a problem as late as 1947. They weren't representative of all Soviet soldiers but reflected the attitudes or poor leadership in some units and formations, to marshal level, and going right up to Stalin until he realised that alienating the potentially productive civilian population in some areas by fucking them to death wasn't in the USSR's interests.

It was a special order of Stavka where the Crimes agains civils population have been persecuted.
This order have been published in the aipril of 1945 befor BAttle of Berlin my friend.
BTW many soldiers have been judged by military tribunal for that.
So this is wrong that Command did nothing.
They did.

Like it or not, some Soviet soldiers and units were just raping and pillaging for a couple of years in Berlin and there are documented accounts of Soviets raping very young girls, aged twelve for sure but I think down to eight or nine, and women in their eighties.

raping the childrens?
And why their parents did not call for the soviet civil authorities?
As i know after 1946 there were civils authrorities in the Berlin.
So today we could find a hundred or "cases" and yet invent a millions..This is not a matter.
Besides how could you prove that girls did not do it voluntary , say for food?
You as as a lawyer should know to prove the crime this is not enough just tell of victims.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.
But soviets at least did not fire them by hundreds a thousands in firestorms.
So stop portray a "human" allies :)They did other nasy things.
But we could not cll them all as a "criminals" right?

[Chevan]

I've read the plan as I posted in a thread about it if you recall. And I said "contigency" meaning it was not a definitive plan meant to be carried out like a hypothetical "what if."

I never said it didn't exist...

What a thread about it?
Could you link this thread please.

I never said "mental" figments of Churchill, I said "war plans." Every country has hypothetical war plans to what they perceive as potential threats. A Canadian Army officer even wrote up a plan to invade the United States as late as after WWI, with the help of the Royal Navy. Does that mean these plans were seriously considered as a course of action? No...

Well you 've forund the equal example:)
The Churchill and Canadian officer:)

And I'd bet the Soviets had a similar war plan to keep going West, if they felt threatened enough. And if the US-UK did attack the Soviet Union, they would have encounter a hell of a lot of their own equipment types and materials..

Unfortinatelly my friend you again repeat the old....
You did not even read the plan Unthinkable, have i guessed?
Becouse there is the REAL ANALYSYS of the military situation in the Europe in the 1945.
The SOVIETS could physically, military and any other sense could NOT attack FIRST:)
Be a good Nick, just admit my arguments.

My point is that Beaver wrote both books and is not some mere Nazi-apologist, crackpot cunt like David Irving. He has documented the atrocities on all sides and cannot be distilled down to some political agendist out to defame the Red Army --as you infer. I suggest you read RS*'s post above carefully...
You have missed.
The BEvour is very popular authors, and as any such lewel authror he care makes their book interesting and truly fascinating.
Besides he used the works of other historiand (just look at the end of the book) he usially didn't work with first documents.
Trying to make his book interesting- he focused on what people in West LIKE to read.
So he just repeat the OLD clishes in the "new stories".And He repeats the old legends.
His books could seems for you, westerns, as actually Original and Documented.
But i personally found a mistake in his book "Stalingrad" .
When he wrote epicode about Battle for Grain Factory, he used the memours of Soviet authros-veteran of that battle.
But he essentially distorted this events.Becouse i've read the original book - i found out a serious mistakes in Bevoor's book.This is just a little episode of how Bevoor write his books.
He is talented authors, however hes talent is appearing in literature rather then in real history.
SO the OLD NAzy bu..t about 80-years grammas who have been raped by soviets - has been repeated by the Bevoour in his book Berlin.Downfall:)
What a great historian:)

[Rising Sun*]

Goes in to my reading Queue after the Resun's "Ledokol" and Doctor Goebels diary 1941.

As you obviously know more about this book by not reading it than I do after having read it, could you tell me why it is deserving of such contempt?

[Rising Sun*]

Yes. Those cases were numerous. But again, you can call me whatever but for me it makes difference to know if it was 20K, 200K or 2000K rape victims.

Obviously we will never know the number but we should try to comprehend the scale. Because the scale of the events tells us something about the what it was like back than.

If you read Naimark, you would get a very good idea of the scale. From primary sources. To the extent that such things were documented at all.

And it might surprise you.

[Nickdfresh]

What a thread about it?
Could you link this thread please.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5639

Well you 've forund the equal example:)
The Churchill and Canadian officer:)

Yes, as they were both just as likely...

Unfortinatelly my friend you again repeat the old....
You did not even read the plan Unthinkable, have i guessed?
Becouse there is the REAL ANALYSYS of the military situation in the Europe in the 1945.
The SOVIETS could physically, military and any other sense could NOT attack FIRST:)
Be a good Nick, just admit my arguments.

Um, really? The Soviets outnumbered the Allies in some key areas...

And attack by either side after such a war was highly unlikely...

You have missed.
The BEvour is very popular authors, and as any such lewel authror he care makes their book interesting and truly fascinating.
Besides he used the works of other historiand (just look at the end of the book) he usially didn't work with first documents.
Trying to make his book interesting- he focused on what people in West LIKE to read.
So he just repeat the OLD clishes in the "new stories".And He repeats the old legends.
His books could seems for you, westerns, as actually Original and Documented.
But i personally found a mistake in his book "Stalingrad" .
When he wrote epicode about Battle for Grain Factory, he used the memours of Soviet authros-veteran of that battle.
But he essentially distorted this events.Becouse i've read the original book - i found out a serious mistakes in Bevoor's book.This is just a little episode of how Bevoor write his books.
He is talented authors, however hes talent is appearing in literature rather then in real history.
SO the OLD NAzy bu..t about 80-years grammas who have been raped by soviets - has been repeated by the Bevoour in his book Berlin.Downfall:)
What a great historian:)

Oh, okay. So hardly anyone was raped in Berlin? Got'cha. :rolleyes: This is getting tedious. So I guess the only ones that ever suffered in the correct death tolls according to generally accepted history are the Russian people and the Germans killed by "evil" Western Allied bombing, eh Chevan?

So, how exactly did Beevor "distort" those events? Specifically? As I am perusing my previously unopened edition, I notice that one of his primary sources is the Soviet military dispatches written by one Alekandr Shcherbakov, "the head of the political department of the Red Army in Moscow." Probably a capitalist subversive and fascist agent! :mad:

[Egorka]

As you obviously know more about this book by not reading it than I do after having read it, could you tell me why it is deserving of such contempt?
I said what I ment. I will try to read it after "Ledokol" (started yesterday) and Geobel's diary 1941 which I ordered in the library. I read Geobes diary for 1944-45 - very fascinating! Can recommend.

I had to read your post several times in a row until I realised why you replied this way. :)

[Rising Sun*]

I said what I ment. I will try to read it after "Ledokol" (started yesterday) and Geobel's diary 1941 which I ordered in the library. I read Geobes diary for 1944-45 - very fascinating! Can recommend.

I had to read your post several times in a row until I realised why you replied this way. :)

I am sorry.

I thought you were dismissing it as an unreliable source, which I think you've worked out is what motivated my comments.

I'd be interested in your comments once you've read Naimark. I might need to borrow it from the library to refresh my mind.

[Egorka]

I thought you were dismissing it as an unreliable source, which I think you've worked out is what motivated my comments.
Actually tell me please what was your motivation.
Are you finding both "Ledokol" and Geobels diary unworthy of reading? Why?

[Rising Sun*]

Actually tell me please what was your motivation.
Are you finding both "Ledokol" and Geobels diary unworthy of reading? Why?

I simply misunderstood you.

It's one of the problems of typing words in cyberspace without the context and intonation and expression that occurs in face to face discussion.

[Chevan]

Um, really? The Soviets outnumbered the Allies in some key areas...
They still critically depend of the fuel and alluminium supplies( moe then 50%).So the USSR was in worsten situation then the allies.
the single chance was to attack the Irn and cut off the oild fields, but this was unpossible in case of creat allies offensive in the Europe.The soviets has no enought troops in the Middle Est.

And attack by either side after such a war was highly unlikely...

Not so unlikely.
If fact tat this moment USSR was MOST volnerable.
And USA was the nuclear monopolist- so i just wonder why they don't attack the soviets. This is entire miracle that Stalin could hold the pease. Although the in the CHina were are already fighting.

Oh, okay. So hardly anyone was raped in Berlin? Got'cha. :rolleyes: This is getting tedious. So I guess the only ones that ever suffered in the correct death tolls according to generally accepted history are the Russian people and the Germans killed by "evil" Western Allied bombing, eh Chevan?

How have you guessed Nick?:) :rolleyes:
In the USA the woman are reping EVERY 2 hours according statistick.Why nobody here don't cry about situation?
You know better tham me that in USA the entire porn-industry exists when the "voluntaries " tenageers ( mostly from poorest stratas) are used for shoting of porn. The handreds of thousands pay money to watch it in internet.
Why Bevoour wrote nothing about it?
The sexual context has been very vivid expressed in the Aby-Ghraib photos ( we all see the it:)).
As well as it was expressed in the Vietnam.
Does we should to conclude the WHOLE American Army in Iraq is the bunch of sexual Maniacks?
It seems yes:rolleyes:

So, how exactly did Beevor "distort" those events? Specifically? As I am perusing my previously unopened edition, I notice that one of his primary sources is the Soviet military dispatches written by one Alekandr Shcherbakov, "the head of the political department of the Red Army in Moscow." Probably a capitalist subversive and fascist agent! :mad:
Now you see , that i/m right.
Bevoour NEVER worked with initial Soviet/russians archives.
He ONLY used the soviets memours for its own purposes, somethims distorting the events according his agenda.
And did Alekandr Shcherbakov tell him about raping 80-years gremmas?
I strongly doubt:)
In fact the Bevours's views have been formed during the Cold war.
He use in their books the fascinating mixture of GErmans post-war rumours and allies propogand.
He just join it in one interesting context ( not so interesting as the D.Irving of course;))

[Nickdfresh]

...

How have you guessed Nick?:) :rolleyes:
In the USA the woman are reping EVERY 2 hours according statistick.Why nobody here don't cry about situation?

Who says I haven't? And what does this have to do with anything? I didn't start this topic nor have I ever minimized the atrocities of any nation including my own...

You know better tham me that in USA the entire porn-industry exists when the "voluntaries " tenageers ( mostly from poorest stratas) are used for shoting of porn. The handreds of thousands pay money to watch it in internet.
Why Bevoour wrote nothing about it?
The sexual context has been very vivid expressed in the Aby-Ghraib photos ( we all see the it:)).
As well as it was expressed in the Vietnam.
Does we should to conclude the WHOLE American Army in Iraq is the bunch of sexual Maniacks?
It seems yes:rolleyes:

Oh, so it's all America's fault and no one should ever discuss topics embarrassing to the Soviet Union because the porn industry is located in the US?

Well, actually, the majority of child pornography comes from Russia, since it is one of the few nations of the world with no age of consent, which is entirely appalling...

Now you see , that i/m right.
Bevoour NEVER worked with initial Soviet/russians archives.

It says on the first three pages in his book on Stalingrad he did, so why wouldn't he have done the same for the Berlin one?

He ONLY used the soviets memours for its own purposes, somethims distorting the events according his agenda.
And did Alekandr Shcherbakov tell him about raping 80-years gremmas?
I strongly doubt:)
In fact the Bevours's views have been formed during the Cold war.
He use in their books the fascinating mixture of GErmans post-war rumours and allies propogand.
He just join it in one interesting context ( not so interesting as the D.Irving of course;))

LOL So, again, all accusations of excesses of Soviet atrocities are lies, the Western Allies are evil baby killers, and any historian that says differently is a liar?

Brilliant! :D That seems to be your recurring theme here, and it is getting old...


Who is fighting the Cold War again?

[Egorka]

... Russia, since it is one of the few nations of the world with no age of consent, which is entirely appalling...
You think?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png/800px-Age_of_Consent.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

[Nickdfresh]

You think?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png/800px-Age_of_Consent.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

Actually, I what I was thinking is that child pornography isn't in itself illegal in Russia, which makes it a major source of child pornography. At least as of a couple of years ago:

http://www.buffalonews.com/339/story/182863.html

[Chevan]

Well, actually, the majority of child pornography comes from Russia, since it is one of the few nations of the world with no age of consent, which is entirely appalling...

The majiorty of child porn come from Asia- you are wrong.
But this is the USA who orders it shares it ower the world via the different chennals including privite internet sites.
Besides in the USSR the porn industry has not been at all.

It says on the first three pages in his book on Stalingrad he did, so why wouldn't he have done the same for the Berlin one?

Oh year - so what was on the first three pages in his book?
Just do not tell me that this is statistical and personal datas from archives.
He usially use just the mempours of other authors. The other - just invent according his agenda.

LOL So, again, all accusations of excesses of Soviet atrocities are lies, the Western Allies are evil baby killers, and any historian that says differently is a liar?

Nick you worry me!!
I/m try to prove you that NOT all of the Soviets were killers and maniaks.
This is just primitive banaliity that has been invented by the Goebbels:)
You try blame me in other banality- the western allies were the evil.
Where did i say it?
Don't be a ........

Brilliant! :D That seems to be your recurring theme here, and it is getting old...

Nothing a brillians in you naive transfulness for the rusophobian blunder.
Egorka has start this thread to check the ability of members here accept the documents critically.
This photo is not a crimes at all , besides this is even not Berlin 1945 as it try to portray the propogandists( the Rising Sun proved it clearly).
You just make the D.Irving "views" actual ,but from the other side:)

Who is fighting the Cold War again?
You...
I was just kidding , but you take it serious.
This is what bother me LOL

[Egorka]

Actually, I what I was thinking is that child pornography isn't in itself illegal in Russia, which makes it a major source of child pornography. At least as of a couple of years ago:
http://www.buffalonews.com/339/story/182863.html
right. There has not been a separate legislation about child pornography. There is general article in the criminal law about the "Illegal circulation of pornography". This one implies child pornography too. The problem is that it is not very specific and therefore allows for some holes in the law. The max sentece the offenders can face is just 2 years of prison.

The plans now are to introduce procecution of the viewer and those who poseses the materials.
In Europ, IIRC, this was inmplemented just 10 years ago or so. So Russia is not that far behind consideirng that child pornography is strongly linked to Internet which in it's turn had a slow start in Russia.
In the USSR time being a gay was illegal and could lead to a prison sentense (I do not know though how many people were actually procecuted for that) let alone pornographic materials. That is not to say that pornography was nonexistant at all.

[Egorka]

Some more pictures from "Bildarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz (http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/webgate_cms/)" of the RKKA (Mongolian Horde) in Berlin:
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=35ac21313915b87256588ecd1ef4a6ac&IMGID=30017147
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=328f16ac79a2dd06e41b212f98130f30&IMGID=30011247
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&SECTION=PREVRESULT&IMGID=30011248
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=e6fd852d2058b6901c3bc20a9fbade06&IMGID=30014149
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=e6fd852d2058b6901c3bc20a9fbade06&IMGID=30014164
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=0d612d8792d3e3a99e4cddbfffc31583&IMGID=30014807
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=0d612d8792d3e3a99e4cddbfffc31583&IMGID=30015054
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=b5368f2fc35ee6e6134aa57cb0870512&IMGID=30015096
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=932359ad50d81cd09eefda52da26f2dd&IMGID=30015131
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=ab806c2e4dcbafffb9b5439fdaeda9e6&IMGID=30016347
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=2cc7b470476b9e7536a4bc8d109a3b62&IMGID=30017148

And here is the american barbarian horde members taking advantage og german women:
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=fc2101035f813109e56b36fc5764bc2f&IMGID=30016375
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=fc2101035f813109e56b36fc5764bc2f&IMGID=30016376
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&UURL=ab806c2e4dcbafffb9b5439fdaeda9e6&IMGID=30012270


And here is the winner!
The original photo of the bike stealing scene:
http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=e3cdf9d5136f886278643de456a5b 010&SECTION=PREVRESULT&IMGID=30005321
The title: "Sowjetischer Soldat versucht, einer deutschen Frau das Fahrrad zu entwenden"

So... the Soviet representative of an occupational army is attempting to steal a bike from a German woman in a broad day light!
The woman is not giving up to the barbarian. The grave conflict is looming...
The the German public around is not very scared are they?

Maybe, just maybe... the Germans in Berlin were not afraid of those barbarians as much as you might think?

What do you think?

[Nickdfresh]

The majiorty of child porn come from Asia- you are wrong.
But this is the USA who orders it shares it ower the world via the different chennals including privite internet sites.
Besides in the USSR the porn industry has not been at all.

LOL Um, your sources, please?

And there was plenty of endemic corruption in the USSR

Oh year - so what was on the first three pages in his book?
Just do not tell me that this is statistical and personal datas from archives.
He usially use just the mempours of other authors. The other - just invent according his agenda.

His "agenda" has been corroborated, including the conception and execution of Soviet orders to combat the problem...

Nick you worry me!!
I/m try to prove you that NOT all of the Soviets were killers and maniaks.

Actually, you try to make it as if NONE of the Soviets were maniacs and killers, and that it is everyone else who is guilty and wrong while the Soviets were purely victims...

This is just primitive banaliity that has been invented by the Goebbels:)
You try blame me in other banality- the western allies were the evil.
Where did i say it?
Don't be a ........

Goebbels was dead when most of this took place. BTW, he also scathingly attacked Allied bombing, did he just make that up, or exaggerate the extent of it, too?

Nothing a brillians in you naive transfulness for the rusophobian blunder.
Egorka has start this thread to check the ability of members here accept the documents critically.

You mean a couple of photographs means that something didn't happen? You mean since they didn't bother to photograph the rapes, they never happened?

This photo is not a crimes at all , besides this is even not Berlin 1945 as it try to portray the propogandists( the Rising Sun proved it clearly).

Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...

You just make the D.Irving "views" actual ,but from the other side:)

Which proves what a sycophant you are since you sung his praises...

You...
I was just kidding , but you take it serious.
This is what bother me LOL

:rolleyes:

BTW, what happened in these photos?:

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/29alemanas.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/30Praga.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3c13916v.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

An article on Beevor and the reaction from Russia:

Book On Red Army Rapes In
Berlin Angers Russians
6-4-2


(Reuters) - A new book about the fall of Berlin is angering Russians, who feel widespread pride in their victory, by describing the Red Army's brutal conduct during the final days of World War Two, including gang rapes.

In an interview, Antony Beevor, British author of the best-selling "Berlin: The Downfall, 1945", said the controversy stems in part from Russia's failure to come to terms with its Soviet totalitarian past. Germany, the war's loser, has long dealt with its Nazi crimes. "Germany really started to face up to the horrors of its past after it had an economic miracle," he said. "Russia hasn't had an economic miracle yet and it will take quite a long time even after it does before it starts to see things less in terms of the heroism of the Great Patriotic War. "When you're economically humiliated you hang on to that moment of great pride even more so and refuse to contemplate any dark side to it."

Alongside the rape of an estimated two million German women, more than half of them gang-raped, by Soviet soldiers, Beevor's research shows thousands of Ukrainian and Polish women were raped as the Red Army advanced westwards to end Hitler's reign. "By the time the Red Army reached Berlin, rape had evolved into treating women as carnal booty," Beevor said.

"For me, the most striking or horrific discovery from a Russian point of view was that Soviet troops raped young Russian and Ukrainian women, because that undermines any justification of Red Army behaviour on the grounds of revenge," he added.

Josef Stalin deployed 2.5 million troops, 7,500 aircraft, 6,250 tanks and 41,600 guns in the Battle of Berlin. The war victory - at a staggering cost of 27 million dead - is perhaps the only part of Soviet history that all Russians see with pride. Their May 9 Victory Day anniversary of the end of the war remains a major national holiday.

Moscow's ambassador in London, Grigory Karasin, described the book, which has yet to be translated into Russian, as "an act of blasphemy" and "a case of slander".

Beevor said: "What the Russians had not realised was the bulk of the material came from Russian archives. It's hard to say it's slander or to say it was all taken out of context." Beevor is a former army officer who has written a number of history books and works of fiction. His breakthrough work was "Stalingrad", a harrowing description of the one of the most brutal battles in history.

An incident in 1943, when a Red Army soldier taunted German prisoners in the ruins of Stalingrad with the words "This is how Berlin is going to look", inspired "Berlin: The Downfall, 1945".

Beevor received many letters from German rape victims saying they were glad their story was being told at last. "All of them say in relief: 'None of us dared tell our story because we didn't think anyone would believe us. You've now told the story.' That was extremely encouraging," he said.

He said it was German men who had suppressed the subject. "For them the worst humiliation was that their wives had been raped and they simply could not talk about it, they forbade their wives from talking about it and it became a taboo." Beevor says the story of the rapes, while important, has attracted more attention than he would have hoped.

Nearly 80,000 Russian soldiers died and more than a quarter of a million were wounded in the fight for Berlin. He said it was vital to understand the suffering of Russian soldiers at the hands of both the Germans and their own commanders. "The last chapters are among the saddest - that those people who survived the war thinking they were going to go back and be treated as heroes then found life was very hard to fit into."

http://www.rense.com/general25/angers.htm

[Rising Sun*]

Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...


Phew!

Initially I thought denier referred to the measure of fineness in ladies' stockings, from a long time ago, and that you were accusing Chevan & Co of being, well, you know, a bit fond of ladies' lingerie, although I'm sure they'd look nice in them. :D

Then I realised you were talking about denial.

The evidence I've seen, for which I've quoted a carefully researched and referenced source earlier, indicates that rape by Soviets was a major problem in Soviet occupied territories and especially Germany.

As also stated in my earlier post, that evidence also shows that it was not universal conduct by Soviet troops but by some, which in turn indicated problems in leadership and attitude in certain formations and units, which in part devolved from Stalin's brutal attitudes to the issue.

I'm not asserting that all Soviets were sub-human beasts in Berlin etc, but there is plenty of evidence that many of them were so far as rape and other, often related (notably murdering the victim), crimes went.

There is also evidence that some Soviets, especially officers, tried to stop such conduct, which contradicts any notion that all Soviets were mad rapists.

But there is too much evidence to reject as fanciful claims that many Soviet troops ran amok in Berlin and other occupied territories and that rape was a significant part of their crimes.

As with non-Soviet Allied troops in other occupied areas, it was probably the REMFs rather than the fighting troops who were worst.

[Rising Sun*]

As I'm too lazy to type out slabs of text from Naimark's book, here's an internet copy and paste that covers some of what I'd say, with references.

Subject: re 6219-Beevor/Fall of Berlin
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002

Dear David:

I’m writing you regarding an excerpt from Antony Beevor’s book “Berlin: The Downfall 1945” which appeared in “The Guardian” on May 1, 2002 (published on your web site on May 2, 2002). I am glad that atrocities of the Soviet troops in 1944-45 have finally attracted attention of the public.

However, this is not the first time that the rape and pillage on a mass scale by Soviet soldiers in the “liberated” parts of Eastern Europe and occupied Germany was described. Several years ago a detailed analysis of such atrocities was given in Norman Naimark’s book “The Russians in Germany. A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949” [1]. As for memoirs, it is emotionally difficult to read some of them, especially about East Prussia [2].

I am familiar mainly with some memoirs about events in Budapest. Practically every book written by Hungarian Holocaust survivors who witnessed the Soviet “liberation” contains descriptions of the looting, rape, and murder. The memoirs by Lars Berg, a Swedish diplomat who headed a department within the Swedish Legation in Budapest and who worked with Raoul Wallenberg, gives very impressive details [3]. What makes this particular memoir unusual is that Soviet officials confirmed at the diplomatic level one of his descriptions – the rape of a woman servant at the Swedish Legation.

I feel that Antony Beevor missed two important points in the excerpt. First, that the atrocities were ignored by the Communist Party Leader and Commander-in-Chief Josef Stalin himself. It is well known that when the Yugoslav Communists complained to Stalin about the atrocities, Stalin told one of the Yugoslavs, Milovan Djilas: “Can’t [you] understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?” Stalin held the same opinion about atrocities in East Prussia: “We lecture our soldiers too much, let them have some initiative” [4].

Second, there were some extremely courageous Soviet officers who protested against the atrocities. Such protests were almost suicidal in the environment of the Soviet army. I personally knew two of these former officers. Both were Jewish (by origin) and, of course, were not the Nazi sympathizers. They were decent human beings in inhuman circumstances. Both were accused of “slandering the Soviet Army,” convicted and spent years in the Gulag. One of them, Lev Kopelev, worked for a while as an imprisoned technical scientist with Alexander Solzhenitsyn at the secret laboratory “Marfino” [5]. Later he became a well-known dissident writer and described “Marfino” in his memoirs [6]. The second, geneticist Vladimir Efroimson, was found “guilty” of two crimes—in 1945, he reported atrocities he witnessed, and in 1947, he protested against the pseudo-scientist Trofim Lysenko, who was supported by the Communist Party and Stalin himself (there is more about the Efroimson case in my book “The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science” [7]).

.....


I belong to the generation of Soviet kids who listened to the stories of victorious Soviet soldiers after they came back to the Soviet Union from the defeated Germany. However, I do remember hearing some veterans brag about atrocities they committed in Germany. Hopefully, the understanding of the past may eventually raise a wide international condemnation of the present behavior of grandsons of the Soviet WWII soldiers in Chechnya which is desperately needed.

Vadim Birstein,

Author of “The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science”
(Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 2001)
331 West 57th Street, #159
New York, NY 10019
birstein@pipeline.com

[1] Naimark, Norman M., The Russians in Germany. A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949 (Cambridge (MA): The Belknap Press, 1995), pp. 69-140.

[2] Some data are available on the Internet. See, for instance, an essay “The Expulsion” by a son of a Swedish attaché in Berlin, Eric Edelstam (http://www.wordsandart.com/forums/viewtopic.php?TopicID=4)

[3] Berg, Lars G., The Book That Disappeared: What Happened in Budapest (New York: Vantage Press, 1990), pp. 55, 144-156, 160-162, 193-199.

[4] Djilas, Milovan, Conversations with Stalin, trans. Michael Petrovich (New York: Harcourt Brace, 1962), pp. 88-89, 95, 101).

[5] Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr, The First Circle (New York: Harper and Row, 1968).

[6] Kopelev, Lev, Ease My Sorrow. A Memoir, trans. from the Russian by Antonina W. Bouis (New York: Random House, 1983).

[7] Birstein, Vadim J., The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science (Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 2001), pp. 272-276.

[8] Politkovskaya, Anna, A Dirty War. A Russian Reporter in Chechnya, trans. from the Russian and edited by John Crowfoot (London: The Harvill Press, 2001).
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6225-9.cfm

I expect that Birstein will be derided by some as a commentator whose views don't deserve respect, having been a dissident member of the Russian Academy of Sciences who went to America.

[Nickdfresh]

Phew!

Initially I thought denier referred to the measure of fineness in ladies' stockings, from a long time ago, and that you were accusing Chevan & Co of being, well, you know, a bit fond of ladies' lingerie, although I'm sure they'd look nice in them. :D

Then I realised you were talking about denial.

The evidence I've seen, for which I've quoted a carefully researched and referenced source earlier, indicates that rape by Soviets was a major problem in Soviet occupied territories and especially Germany.

As also stated in my earlier post, that evidence also shows that it was not universal conduct by Soviet troops but by some, which in turn indicated problems in leadership and attitude in certain formations and units, which in part devolved from Stalin's brutal attitudes to the issue.

I'm not asserting that all Soviets were sub-human beasts in Berlin etc, but there is plenty of evidence that many of them were so far as rape and other, often related (notably murdering the victim), crimes went.

There is also evidence that some Soviets, especially officers, tried to stop such conduct, which contradicts any notion that all Soviets were mad rapists.

But there is too much evidence to reject as fanciful claims that many Soviet troops ran amok in Berlin and other occupied territories and that rape was a significant part of their crimes.

As with non-Soviet Allied troops in other occupied areas, it was probably the REMFs rather than the fighting troops who were worst.


I totally agree.

I've never stated in any way shape or form that all or even a majority of Soviet soldiers were rapist monsters. Nor have I ever had the delusions that this issue was limited to the Soviet conquest of the areas of Poland to Berlin and the eastern part of Germany. There are in fact documentations of mass rapes conducted by numbers of American soldiers in a couple of incidents in North Africa in Rick Atkinson's "An Army at Dawn." So are his accusations false because he failed to find "official documentations" on it in US archives? (most of his sources came from French Gendarme and documented complaints of the Free French gov't in exile after some US troops began to rape not only North African women, but French and Jewish women as well)...

But for certain posters, the very same ones that love to play up and highlight the horrors of strategic bombing, this is completely disingenuous to say the least. You can't just cherry-pick which atrocities you believe in and which ones are hoaxes or are widely exaggerated out of false (national) pride. It is insulting, inflammatory, and completely disingenuous and contrary to any rational discussion on WWII. You can't simply pick which anti-Allied propaganda strand that Goebbels took as I've seen many of his arguments against the Western Allies as fire-bombing monsters repeated here. But does the fact that he was the chief Nazi propagandist discredit everything he said? Or are we going to pick and choose which one serves our interest based on a wider web-agenda or apologist arguments and insecurities?

[Rising Sun*]

There are in fact documentations of mass rapes conducted by numbers of American soldiers in a couple of incidents in North Africa in Rick Atkinson's "An Army at Dawn." So are his accusations false because he failed to find "official documentations" on it in US archives? (most of his sources came from French Gendarme and documented complaints of the Free French gov't in exile after some US troops began to rape not only North African women, but French and Jewish women as well)...


Similarly, Naimark quotes German police reports for some of his evidence about Berlin / Germany, but the German police hit a brick wall when they tried to go into Soviet camps etc after offenders.

As for Allied troops, there were some serious problems with REMFs in Normandy, and by today's politically correct standards an unpalatble preponderance of rapes by American Negro (which is what they were called then) soldiers in occupied areas. Some evidence of this is in David Irving's The War Between the Generals (written when he was still doing some sound history) which happens to be on the internet (or I wouldn't have typed it all out)

Capital letter groups relate to dates or numbers (no idea why that happens on a paste) which can be seen in original text in the link.

A number of the combat troops in Normandy carried their battle
psychosis over into the rear areas. Foreigners were foreigners, to many of
them, whether French or German or Italian. An ordeal began for the
French who had stayed behind in Normandy and Cherbourg to welcome
their liberators. They were liable to be vandalized, robbed, raped, mur-
dered. Indeed, the behaviour of GIs throughout liberated Europe was
causing apprehension in Washington. The Joint Chiefs reviewed a report
from Rome too that conditions now were worse than when the Germans
had been there; said Admiral Leahy: ìA situation which a United States
official can so describe should not be permitted to develop.î Eisenhower,
his desk already crowded with tactical and administrative problems, found
the whole business tedious. It involved him in endless sessions with the
theatre judge advocate, Brigadier General Edward C. Betts. It began just
three days after D-day, when he was confronted with the cases of two
blacks sentenced for rape and murder. It was a delicate problem, one that
loomed ever larger for the Americans, threatening to damage their image
as the worldís peacemakers, the bringers of law and order to Nazi-ravaged
Europe. Liddell Hart, visiting Caen later, would note, ìMost Frenchmen
speak of the correctness of the German Armyís behaviour. They seem par-
ticularly impressed that German soldiers were shot for incivility to women
and compare this with the American troopsí bad behaviour toward
women.

After the capture of Cherbourg the embattled armies had moved off,
leaving in their wake a wrecked French countryside and a flotsam of heart-
break. In Cherbourg itself, the first big city entered by combat troops, riots
broke out as bored GIs used their firearms indiscriminately against the
French. ìUnfortunately,î said the official report of Normandy Base Sec-
tion, ìfrom the American angle, this created an unfavourable impression
on the civilian population.î Military police battalions had to be assigned
early in August NVQQ, the situation being partially cured only by a complete
withdrawal of arms and placing all bars off limits to U.S. troops. ìUnfor-
tunately most of these undisciplined acts were caused by coloured troops,î
the report continued, ìand great efforts were made to bring this situation
under control.î During September and October the violence increased.

ìThe victims of the crime could not be brought back to life,î the report
said, ìbut the assailant could be punished. To prove to the civil population
we were doing everything possible to bring about justice, executions were
held at or near the scene of the crimes. The immediate family of the victim
and civic officials of the towns were present to see the execution.î
On August N, Eisenhower telephoned Betts for a complete report on
the number of death sentences passed on American troops: ìIím especially
anxious to see the numbers as between white and coloured troops,î he
said. But in the British sector too there were problems, and on August NM
Montgomery had to write to all three army commanders ñ Bradley, Demp-
sey, and Crerar ñ ordering them to stamp out looting of French property
which was becoming rife not only in the forward battle area but also well
outside, where the objects taken had no military use whatsoever.
By the autumn, GI morale was breaking down in the face of the wet,
the unhoped-for German resistance, the lack of furloughs, and the bad
personnel replacement system. The discipline of even some of the finest
U.S. units was cracking. The death sentences that Eisenhower now had to
review multiplied ñ Betts brought him the dossiers once a week and laid
them on his desk to read and sign. On November R, Kay Summersby, worried, recorded: ìGeneral Betts reports that disciplinary conditions in the
army are becoming bad. Many cases of rape, murder and pillage are causing complaints by the French, Dutch, etc. E. is assigning several officers to
make a complete investigation and report personally to him. . . . E. dis-
cussed with Bedell at length the discipline of our troops, the chief of staff
has had a report which substantiated Bettsís report.î The next day Bedell
Smith was again called in. ìE. discussed with him the discipline of the NMNst
and UOnd Airborne Divisions. It is bad, numerous cases of rape, looting.
Strong measures will have to be taken. E. suggests that there should be a
public hanging, particularly in the case of rape.î Previous executions had
been inside army stockades. For the Supreme Commander to suggest
making an example of the celebrated U.S. airborne divisions by a humili-
ating public spectacle of a sort seldom seen since the nineteenth century
was an indication of the urgency of the problem.

The problem persisted. When Major General LeRoy Lutes arrived a
month later to inspect the theatre for Brehon Somervell, he wrote in his
diary: ìThe French now grumble . . . that the Americans are a more drunken and disorderly lot than the Germans and hope to see the day
when they are liberated from the Americans.î He added that the Allied
propaganda about the Germans was evidently untrue. ìI am informed the
Germans did not loot either residences, stores, or museums. In fact the
people claimed that they were meticulously treated by the Army of Occu-
pation.î By the time the campaign in Europe ended, Betts would have
noted that there was a definite correlation between the number of rapes
and murders committed by GIs during any given period and the general
combat activity of that period. ìFrom the initial landing in June NVQQ to the
middle of July the crime trend corresponded to the gradual increase in the
number of troops,î Betts would report. ìHowever, following the Saint-LÙ
breakthrough at the end of July a sharp rise in the number of cases oc-
curred, followed by a rapid decline after the stabilization of the battlefront.
. . . From the breakthrough at the Ruhr River in February NVQR until the
cessation of hostilities, the trend again shows a sudden sharp rise hardly
proportionate to the number of troops engaged.î At one stage there were
over five hundred instances of rape per month.

In all, QRQ GIs were sentenced to death by courts-martial. Many got
off the hook, but seventy were executed ñ all except one for nonmilitary
offences like rape and murder. p.211 ff at http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/WarBetween/index.html

[Egorka]

BTW, what happened in these photos?:
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/29alemanas.jpg
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/30Praga.jpg
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3c13916v.jpg

The site where this images are located says (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm):

"Soviet Red Army lead by communist have reaped nearly 70% of German woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes."
"Marxist encouraged Red Army soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot."



Do You agree with these statements?

[Rising Sun*]

The site where this images are located says (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm):

"Soviet Red Army lead by communist have reaped nearly 70% of German woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes."
"Marxist encouraged Red Army soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot."



Do You agree with these statements?

What does it matter whether I or anyone else agrees with statements on that website?

Are you putting it forward as a reliable historical source?

If so, why ask the rest of us to confirm its accuracy?

If not, why refer to it?

[Egorka]

Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...
Which people are you talking about?

[Egorka]

What does it matter whether I or anyone else agrees with statements on that website?
It does not. It only does matter when US reputation is at stake. No?
Are you putting it forward as a reliable historical source?I do not know. I have just seen few pages there. A bit histerical, but the subject is harsh as well.
By the way, most of the pictures are real and not faked. So in this respect it is reliable. Some of the statements are IMHO - not.
If so, why ask the rest of us to confirm its accuracy?
Because we are in a forum for the sole purpose of communicating about different, often controversial, topic. Unless I am not mistaken...
If not, why refer to it?I did not reffer to it. Nick did.

So now when I answered all of your questions, why do not you answer mine, please.

[Rising Sun*]

Which people are you talking about?

Chevan. :D :D :D



http://www.andrewbeaton.com/generalimages/frank.jpg



Denier ratings http://hosieree.com/categories/Stockings.html

[Egorka]

Chevan. :D :D :D
...

Denier ratings http://hosieree.com/categories/Stockings.html
For my taste this woman it too flat chested and seem to have too much pubic hair... see how it protrudes down there...

[Rising Sun*]

It does not. It only does matter when US reputation is at stake. No?


For the US reputation at stake, see my post at #75.

[Rising Sun*]

For my taste this woman it too flat chested and seem to have too much pubic hair... see how it protrudes down there...

Actually, they're the stockings.

Chevan's a bit over-endowed in the pubic area. :D

[Nickdfresh]

The site where this images are located says (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm):

"Soviet Red Army lead by communist have reaped nearly 70% of German woman. Girls who resisted where killed. No one was sentenced or suited for this crimes."
"Marxist encouraged Red Army soldiers to rape women. All girls who resisted have been shot."



Do You agree with these statements?

Statements? I was just looking at the photos...

[Nickdfresh]

Actually, they're the stockings.

Chevan's a bit over-endowed in the pubic area. :D

Oi vay! :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcpvx2EVCpU

[Chevan]

Actually, you try to make it as if NONE of the Soviets were maniacs and killers, and that it is everyone else who is guilty and wrong while the Soviets were purely victims...

Yes they were purely victims from the BEGINNING . 11 millions of OUR civils perished.
This is nothing even with supposed 2 millions or raped civilsin Germany , isn't it?

Goebbels was dead when most of this took place. BTW, he also scathingly attacked Allied bombing, did he just make that up, or exaggerate the extent of it, too?
No Nick , Goebbels always told the true:)
The soviet was aimed to rape and kill EVERY gegerman woman, and allies killed ONLY in Dresded 250 000 of civils for 13 hours.
What a ugly unhuman bas...ds, are not they?
I even don't know who is more HUMAN:)?
So stop to cry about raped, lets tell about killed:)

You mean a couple of photographs means that something didn't happen? You mean since they didn't bother to photograph the rapes, they never happened?

The photograpoh of rapes is the "proof" in the tribunal.
But as i said the Soviet persecuted the criminals.
To the contrast of GErmans who did not fear shot it crimes even the mass execution of Jews( we have a lot of photos) , the Soviets soldiers never shoted its REAL crimes.

Rising Sun thinks you're all denier nuts...

RS thinks that Israel attaked the American "Liberty" SPECIALLY to involve the USA into the conflict.( the point that i/m fully agree with)
So if he is the absolute authoritet here, why did you argue with him?


:rolleyes:

BTW, what happened in these photos?:

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/29alemanas.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/30Praga.jpg

http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/31liberados.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3c13916v.jpg

Who does know?
The dozen of dead bodies on the ground?
Is this something terrible for you?
So look at this (http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresden_gallery/images/0034.jpg)
or
this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/f7/Einsatz1.jpg)
What happened in these photos?

[Chevan]

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6225-9.cfm

I expect that Birstein will be derided by some as a commentator whose views don't deserve respect, having been a dissident member of the Russian Academy of Sciences who went to America.
Who is doubt.
The "hisrorians" like Politkovskay, Solgenitsyn , Birstein and Kopelev are the serious source for us:)
The Russian "fifth colums" is on a parade:)
I just wonder why do this glorious company forget about lovely Resun-Suvorov:)
Egorka how do you think - may be we also should use the Western "fifth colums" here as a sources?
That would be damn fascinating to post here Irving,Duke, Graft and others:)
I can post the couple of "materials" about allies atrocities in the Europe.

[Egorka]

Statements? I was just looking at the photos...
Yes. The statements that are used to describe the very same photographs you linked to. What do you think about them?

And what's up with your answer? Have I asked something unapropriate?

[Egorka]

That would be damn fascinating to post here Irving,Duke, Graft and others:)
I can post the couple of "materials" about allies atrocities in the Europe.
Chevan, i do not think it would be constructive thing to do...

[Chevan]

Chevan, i do not think it would be constructive thing to do...
But why ...?
Our friend Nickdfresh seems find some the rusophobian sites as very "constructive":)
Is the statement "70% of woman have been raped" doesn't look enought constructive fro you as it looks for him?
And my mate RS also uses the our "Fifth column" as a "constructive source".
So why we should stay the White Crows in this , amazingly constructive thread?

[Chevan]

What does it matter whether I or anyone else agrees with statements on that website?

Are you putting it forward as a reliable historical source?

If so, why ask the rest of us to confirm its accuracy?

If not, why refer to it?
Hmnnn...
So if something in this source seems not so reliable, why we should believe in other matter on this site?Or why does Nickdfresh post the matter from this "unreliable" site here?

[Chevan]

....

But does the fact that he was the chief Nazi propagandist discredit everything he said? Or are we going to pick and choose which one serves our interest based on a wider web-agenda or apologist arguments and insecurities?
But does that fact that He as chief of NAzy propogand get you the chance selectively hear and adopt his agenda?
Why if you seriously belive that the Eastern Barbarians horde that has come to GErmany only to kill and rape everybody, and take the "documents' as a proofs - why do you deny the other "documents" about actions of alles that has been portrayed by the Goebbels also?
Why do you take it selectively?

[Chevan]

Chevan. :D :D :D

http://www.andrewbeaton.com/generalimages/frank.jpg


:D:D;)
Don't even look simular like me (http://i26.tinypic.com/2ily976.jpg).
But probably look like Nickdfresh (http://i29.tinypic.com/t8p6l3.jpg):)
Becouse he could not prove contrary:)

[Rising Sun*]

But why ...?
Our friend Nickdfresh seems find some the rusophobian sites as very "constructive":)
Is the statement "70% of woman have been raped" doesn't look enought constructive fro you as it looks for him?
And my mate RS also uses the our "Fifth column" as a "constructive source".
So why we should stay the White Crows in this , amazingly constructive thread?

You're just pissed off that I didn't post a nicer photo of you in stockings. :D

I would have, but you said the one you sent me by PM was just for me. :mrgreen:

Now, seriously, why do you say that Birstein isn't a reliable source?

Obviously there is an understanding that you and Egorka share about him and the other writers you mentioned that make them the Soviet equivalents of Irving, but why?

What does White Crows mean?

[Egorka]

Now, seriously, why do you say that Birstein isn't a reliable source?
Obviously there is an understanding that you and Egorka share about him and the other writers you mentioned that make them the Soviet equivalents of Irving, but why?
What does White Crows mean?Egorka shares what? Who is Birstein?
white crow = black sheep

[Rising Sun*]

Egorka shares what? Who is Birstein?


See my #73.

Vadim Birstein, Author of “The Perversion of Knowledge: The True Story of Soviet Science”, (Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 2001)

[Nickdfresh]

Yes they were purely victims from the BEGINNING . 11 millions of OUR civils perished.
This is nothing even with supposed 2 millions or raped civilsin Germany , isn't it?

I don't recall saying it was...

No Nick , Goebbels always told the true:)
The soviet was aimed to rape and kill EVERY gegerman woman, and allies killed ONLY in Dresded 250 000 of civils for 13 hours.
What a ugly unhuman bas...ds, are not they?
I even don't know who is more HUMAN:)?
So stop to cry about raped, lets tell about killed:)

Okay. How about raped, then killed?

And the Soviet bombardment of Berlin killed 250,000 civilians and the wanton use of heavy artillery in urban areas by the Red Army caused many civilian casualties throughout Eastern Europe, and I have no idea where you're getting the inflated Dresden figures...

And I've never really taken Goebbel's word for anything, nor is he my source. I'm not even the one that brought him up! Nobody is citing his diary except for Egorka trying to prove some amorphous point...

BTW, I have no idea how often it needs to be stated that Goebbels was dead when these events took place...So, your point of repeatedly bringing him up is what again?

The photograpoh of rapes is the "proof" in the tribunal.
But as i said the Soviet persecuted the criminals.
To the contrast of GErmans who did not fear shot it crimes even the mass execution of Jews( we have a lot of photos) , the Soviets soldiers never shoted its REAL crimes.

The Soviets only began to restore order when things got out of hand, and no one has said that is was the entire Red Army. BTW, nobody is accusing this of only being a problem with the Red Army. But certainly, there was a penchant for looking the other way that started with Stalin...

RS thinks that Israel attaked the American "Liberty" SPECIALLY to involve the USA into the conflict.( the point that i/m fully agree with)
So if he is the absolute authoritet here, why did you argue with him?

Keep your posts on topic! This has nothing to do with it!

Who does know?
The dozen of dead bodies on the ground?
Is this something terrible for you?
So look at this (http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresden_gallery/images/0034.jpg)
or
this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/f7/Einsatz1.jpg)
What happened in these photos?

What does this have to do with German women being raped-killed by the Soviet soldiers from the postwar occupation period?

[Nickdfresh]

Yes. The statements that are used to describe the very same photographs you linked to. What do you think about them?

And what's up with your answer? Have I asked something unapropriate?

The statements are poorly worded by what is obviously a person whose first language is not English. And I really didn't pay much attention to the statements because I think we're talking about photographs here. And, the best answer I can give is that I do believe the pictures show victims of the aftermath of Soviet occupation..

But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?

Because that is sort of a question you keep dancing around and avoiding answering definitately in this thread...

[Nickdfresh]

But does that fact that He as chief of NAzy propogand get you the chance selectively hear and adopt his agenda?
Why if you seriously belive that the Eastern Barbarians horde that has come to GErmany only to kill and rape everybody, and take the "documents' as a proofs - why do you deny the other "documents" about actions of alles that has been portrayed by the Goebbels also?
Why do you take it selectively?


I think I've answered this sufficiently. I'm not the one that brought him up in this thread. And it has been mentioned that Goebbels was dead during the occupation of Berlin.

Why do you supposed Goebbels would say such a thing? What would make him think that?

[Egorka]

And I've never really taken Goebbel's word for anything, nor is he my source. I'm not even the one that brought him up! Nobody is citing his diary except for Egorka trying to prove some amorphous point...
WHERE?

[Nickdfresh]

WHERE?

It was Chevran that brought him up here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122002&postcount=48

Mentioned reading him a few posts down, sorry for the confusion...

[Egorka]

Mentioned reading him a few posts down, sorry for the confusion...
That is OK. I am not a spoon of honey either. :)

The statements are poorly worded by what is obviously a person whose first language is not English.
Ha-ha-ha! What a nonsense! And a lousy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for own words... Those statements mean exactly what the author intended to say!

And I really didn't pay much attention to the statements because I think we're talking about photographs here. And, the best answer I can give is that I do believe the pictures show victims of the aftermath of Soviet occupation..What do you mean you "believe". Strange... I was under impression that you were "just looking at the photos... (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122372&postcount=84)".
So either you just took photos without knowing what they depict and trew in as showing Soviet crimes.
Or you read the captions under the pictures. I guess the later is valid.

So I did a natural thing i.e. I asked what you think of the description. You, instead of answering openly, tell me bollocks that the description is poorly worded. Do not worry the site writer did good job expressing presicely his opinion on the discussed matter.

But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?
"Wholesale"? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or "sweeping: ignoring distinctions;"?
But that would be IMHO - "nearly 70% of German woman (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm)" and "They raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)".
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.
Because that is sort of a question you keep dancing around and avoiding answering definitately in this thread...
First of all this thread is not exactly about what we are discussing right now. It is about specific tangible peice of document that is intresting to analyse (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122338&postcount=69). And my impression is that this is what you are avoiding answering about.

No offense!

[Nickdfresh]

That is OK. I am not a spoon of honey either. :)


MMmmmm...honey!

Ha-ha-ha! What a nonsense! And a lousy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for own words... Those statements mean exactly what the author intended to say!

Who are you talking too? Why ever would those words be my responsibility?

What do you mean you "believe". Strange... I was under impression that you were "just looking at the photos... (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122372&postcount=84)".
So either you just took photos without knowing what they depict and trew in as showing Soviet crimes.
Or you read the captions under the pictures. I guess the later is valid.

I used Google to get the pictures, and used the captions only to verify that the victims were Germans...

Which I guess shows that while we have photos of apparently a Russian soldier tugging with a German woman over a bike, we also have some photographic evidence of the victims of the Red Army's breakdown in discipline...

The captions are as I said, obviously not written by someone who learned to speak English...

So I did a natural thing i.e. I asked what you think of the description. You, instead of answering openly, tell me bollocks that the description is poorly worded. Do not worry the site writer did good job expressing presicely his opinion on the discussed matter.

Do you have a point with this?

What do you think of the descriptions?


"Wholesale"? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or "sweeping: ignoring distinctions;"?
But that would be IMHO - "nearly 70% of German woman (http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_2.htm)" and "They raped every German female from eight to 80 (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html#article_continue)".
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.

I have seen interviews with German women that reported that in fact that the Soviet