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gumalangi
03-02-2008, 04:55 AM
Sometimes back, i read a book about Waffen SS, written by Keith Simpson,. i remember reading part of earlier stage of Barbarossa,.. stating of 3rd SS Totenkopf casualties during Battle of Lake Ilmen,. one of statement mentioned that there were few desertion from 3rd SS Totenkopf during that battle.

Was it really happening, or it was just an propaganda issued by Russian.
If it was infact happened, is there any news about their well being?, as it is understood, Red Army spare no mercy for Waffen SS.

Thank you

Moreheaddriller
03-02-2008, 01:04 PM
Well i personaly dont think it happend simply because the waffen ss was so disciplined they would have fought to the death and would have not fled becuse my gramps was in the 29th during ww2 and he told me stories about ther encounters with the ss and he said qoute "the son of bitches wouldn't run if the devil himself was after em"

Chevan
03-03-2008, 01:07 AM
Was it really happening, or it was just an propaganda issued by Russian.
If it was infact happened, is there any news about their well being?, as it is understood, Red Army spare no mercy for Waffen SS.

Thank you

This is tupical mistake that soviets killed all SS/Waffen SS soldiers.
Sure many of them were executed.
But just look at Baltic veterans of Waffen SS- today many of them ( who succesfully survived the GULAG, to the contrast of about 2.5 soviet POWs in Germany) walks in parades here.
Besides there was a great differnce between the German SS and Waffen SS of foreign "voluntaries".

Fennica
03-03-2008, 01:45 AM
This is tupical mistake that soviets killed all SS/Waffen SS soldiers.
Sure many of them were executed.
But just look at Baltic veterans of Waffen SS- today many of them ( who succesfully survived the GULAG, to the contrast of about 2.5 soviet POWs in Germany) walks in parades here.
Besides there was a great differnce between the German SS and Waffen SS of foreign "voluntaries".Yet again, biased to the limit.
Right here we see how Germans seemingly killed the POWs and Soviets were kind hosts.
In real life Soviets were savages in their treatment of POWs, as many Germans were held as slave labour years and years after the end of WW2.

Waffen SS and forgein vouloonteer SS were very different from the original fanatical, yet not combat worthy force which the SS was in the early years. In the beginning the SS was `pure´ and `elite´ by means of racial appearance and loyalty. As the war progressed, it came apparent that SS needed to be more like a combat unit.
And though there were forces troops, there were also vouloonteer forgeiners, from all over Europe. Soviets like to say these were all nazis, but many fought in order to kill Reds, were against communism.
They fought bitterly because it was known how Soviets treated these troops should they get caught.

Egorka
03-03-2008, 04:46 AM
In real life Soviets were savages in their treatment of POWs, as many Germans were held as slave labour years and years after the end of WW2.
How is exactly long "years and years"?


Waffen SS and forgein vouloonteer SS were very different from the original fanatical, yet not combat worthy force which the SS was in the early years. In the beginning the SS was `pure´ and `elite´ by means of racial appearance and loyalty. As the war progressed, it came apparent that SS needed to be more like a combat unit.
Lake Ilmen... is not it end of 1941 - beggining 1942? It is not the end of the war at all.


And though there were forces troops, there were also vouloonteer forgeiners, from all over Europe. Soviets like to say these were all nazis, but many fought in order to kill Reds, were against communism.
They fought bitterly because it was known how Soviets treated these troops should they get caught.
They were no all Nazis, but most of them were. They were skilled, disciplinned and ideologicaly robust - the most dangerous enemy.

For your info not only Soviets had hard attitude towards SS. On the western front the German tank crews were affraid to surrender in their black uniform as they resembled SS uniforms. Why were they affraid?

Chevan
03-03-2008, 06:23 AM
Yet again, biased to the limit.
Right here we see how Germans seemingly killed the POWs and Soviets were kind hosts.
In real life Soviets were savages in their treatment of POWs, as many Germans were held as slave labour years and years after the end of WW2.

Oh my god , now you are talking with me:)
What a surprise.Sure you know who was a real savage to the POWs and civils on the occuped lands:)
We saw the photos in other thread.


Waffen SS and forgein vouloonteer SS were very different from the original fanatical, yet not combat worthy force which the SS was in the early years. In the beginning the SS was `pure´ and `elite´ by means of racial appearance and loyalty. As the war progressed, it came apparent that SS needed to be more like a combat unit.
And though there were forces troops, there were also vouloonteer forgeiners, from all over Europe. Soviets like to say these were all nazis, but many fought in order to kill Reds, were against communism.
They fought bitterly because it was known how Soviets treated these troops should they get caught.
Now your revisionism has been showed clearly.
Sure not all of them were criminals, but it was proved that Waffen SS were used agains civils( in so called "anti-partisan" operations) where they killed even the children ( like the sadly known Bach-Zelevskij who "pacificated" the Warsaw uprising with awful cruelty).
The Waffen SS/SS has been called as criminal organisation after the war ( the Nurenberg trial) for its wide partisipation in Ethnical mass murders.
Being the fanatically devoted for Nazy ideas - the Waffen SS was universal instrument of killing.
I still know nothing about crimes of Finnish Battalion of Waffen SS in Caucaus, but just give me a bit more time:)

windrider
03-03-2008, 08:11 AM
How is exactly long "years and years"?

German POWs in Allied Hands

Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers were captured during the war. Their fate depended on whether the Red Army or the British or Americans took their armistice. Prisoners of the Western Allies had a much better chance of survival*.

Few Germans were taken in combat from 1939 to 1941. The German victories ensured that prisoners taken in combat in Poland, Norway, France and the Low Countries were released when the campaign ended in allied capitulation.

The combat in the Soviet Union, due to its apocalyptic nature, left both sides trying to prevent capture. Soviet and German units cut off from relief would fight to the death. Friedrich von Paulus’ Sixth Army took 85% casualties before surrendering at Stalingrad. Capture was so feared many choose death.

The conditions German POWs endured on the Eastern Front are beyond description. Shipped to separate camps in Siberia and elsewhere in the western Soviet Union, the German POWs were subjected to aggressive reeducation in communist ideology, as well as frequent beatings, torture, and execution. Food was always scarce.

The result was a horrific rate of death among German POWs. Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia. Most German POWs were held for <b>ten years after the war.</B>

Germans in North America and sometimes Britain fared much better. Food was plentiful, and they ate better then their families in Europe did. Camps for German POWs were set up all over England and the United States. German POWs had medical care, shelter, and were paid wages for their labor, although very low ones. They worked on farms and work gangs. Some died in captivity, either due to wounds in combat or trying to escape. In one incident, zealous Nazi U-boat crewmembers killed a POW that had collaborated with the Allies. Thousands of German POWs attempted escape, with one pair even trying to cross over the Arctic to get from Canada to Germany. Most were recaptured; only one successful escape is recorded from North America.

Violence in POW camps was generally down. Loyal Nazis celebrated national holidays at the same time Hitler was in Berlin. War news shocked them as the Allies and the Red Army advanced into Germany.

The Western Allies were overwhelmed by the number of surrendering Germans in late 1944 and early 1945. The POW system was completely overloaded, with too few guards and too little shelter and food. Many guards were brutal to the German POWs, often in retaliation for the German occupation of their home country.*

The end of the war was distressing, but most POWs feared for their loved ones. Some Nazis committed suicide, either before the end of the war or on the day of the armistice.

When the war ended, the German POWs were shipped home — unless they were held by the Red Army. Germans were still being released from Soviet POW camps in 1955. Some probably were never released and spent their lives in captivity.

German POWs often remained defiant Nazis in captivity, but others were grateful for a hot meal and a warm place to sleep after the horrors of modern warfare. They were often absued for the Nazis' actions in combat and occupation. If they were lucky enough to make it to a POW Camp in North America, they could expect decent food and shelter and sometimes work release. These men only had to fear the hard line Nazis that would execute those they held as Allied collaborators.

* In the book "Other losses" (which I read) that was written after consulting the records of german POWs held by americans, british and french army, it is estimated that about 2 millions germans died from malnourishment and sickness. This was partly due to the food shortage : priority was with liberated civilians from everywhere in Europe. But Also, the german troops who surendered after the armistice were classified as "disarmed enemy force" instead of POW.
Kind of like now with the "illegal enemy combatants" held now in Guantanamo, which are "kind of" out of the Geneva convention. (or so they wish to make us believe).

Book Description From Amazon

After World War II, an estimated ten million Germans, both soldiers and citizens, were incarcerated in Allied prison camps. Due to negligence, varying from exposure to starvation, from gunfire to physical abuse, over 1.5 million of these prisoners lost their lives. Little was known of this topic before the initial release of Other Losses in 1989. Based on the testimony of both French and American sources, Other Losses relayed a shocking account of how both the French and American armies had willingly caused the deaths of some 800,000 men, women and children. Although academics challenged author James Bacque with criticism of exaggeration they were unable to provide an explanation for the extensive casualties. Several years following the original release of Other Losses, the KGBs prisoners of war archives were disclosed. Bacques quest for the truth continued as he probed these files and acquired additional statistical evidence from Soviet sources. This additional information contributes to and expands on his original findings. This updated edition presents all the relevant new material concerning the mass deaths of prisoners and the suppression of the evidence by the governments of Germany, the U.S., France and the Soviet Union. A hornets nest.... tells for the first time how.... German soldiers were left to die in American and French camps. John Gellner The Globe Mail Stunning. Time Magazine A great and grim masterpiece of investigative journalism, unmasking one of the most successful coverups in modern history. Independant on Sunday

So, Chevan, Egorka, please do try to use some research a bit before posting some biased answer... I can only speak for myself, but I'm getting sick of your cold-war mentality. This forum is not about who's country was better/suffered the most/etc, it's about the historic facts.

alephh
03-03-2008, 09:51 AM
Sometimes back, i read a book about Waffen SS, written by Keith Simpson,. i remember reading part of earlier stage of Barbarossa,.. stating of 3rd SS Totenkopf casualties during Battle of Lake Ilmen,. one of statement mentioned that there were few desertion from 3rd SS Totenkopf during that battle.

I too have vague recollection of reading, sometime, somewhere, that Waffen SS had couple of desertions in the early stage of the war. But, considering that some Waffen SS formations lost over 90% (one unit lost 98% of strenght, it's mentioned couple of times in different eastern front books, cannot recall the name of the commander right now) of their strenght during winter of 1941-1942, so it's no wonder if one or two soldiers deserted, at least momentarily.

Problems also is that if unit is beaten and momentarily scatters, it's difficult to say if soldiers are simply lost day or two before founding their way back to unit, or if they have deserted, or if they are marked as deserters for a while.

Of course, in 1945 desertions increased, and some foreign WSS units formed in the last years of the war were pretty low quality to begin with.


_

Chevan
03-03-2008, 01:34 PM
German POWs in Allied Hands

Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers were captured during the war. Their fate depended on whether the Red Army or the British or Americans took their armistice. Prisoners of the Western Allies had a much better chance of survival*.

Sure thay had better chance coz they naver commited henocide on the BRitish or American land, right.


So, Chevan, Egorka, please do try to use some research a bit before posting some biased answer... I can only speak for myself, but I'm getting sick of your cold-war mentality. This forum is not about who's country was better/suffered the most/etc, it's about the historic facts.
Sorry, but You windrider make a mistake if think that me and Egorka did n't use some research about this topic before.
We had a whole debates threads here few time ago.
And i/m getting sick too about tend of some mebers to exploit as a hero the Waffen SS/ SS and other bas..rds of WW2.
And you right - this is matter of cold war mentality. When the Japanes are bad coz they killed the Americans , but GErmans are good coz they fought agains russians:)
Nice menthaly.
And about facts...
Let me remind you a bit about Germans behaviour here.
They killed about 10 millions of slavs , not anglo-saxons. So might you feel free to talk about " historical facts". But the simple fact that they commited genocide neither in London or New York, nor even in your happy Montreal, but in my Nothern Caucaus where my ancestors lived , in Kiev, in Warsaw and in many other Eastern cities make me clear about relation to the race superior ideas and the PEOPLES who really did realized it in practice.
Just make the little brain exercize- just imagine that Japanes accidentally landed in the Canada for short time and begin the Rape of Montreal ( kinda Rape of Nankin) and killed your relatives by most brutally way.
I would like to see how you will defend the "poor japanise POWs" after the war and tell us about Cold war menthaly:)
Sorry again.
Personally i feel sorry for the civils of that amfull war. Even the GErmans civils deserved better destiny. But the people who actually fight for Nazy mashine ( whatever they spread today to justify themself)- this is whole other topic.

windrider
03-03-2008, 02:41 PM
I don't know where you see any glorification of the Nazi in what I wrote.
Why don't you start a thread on russian civilian casualties instead of always coming back to it everywhere?

Egorka
03-03-2008, 03:10 PM
The conditions German POWs endured on the Eastern Front are beyond description. Shipped to separate camps in Siberia and elsewhere in the western Soviet Union, the German POWs were subjected to aggressive reeducation in communist ideology, as well as frequent beatings, torture, and execution. Food was always scarce.How many memoirs of the German exPOWs in USSR have You read?


The result was a horrific rate of death among German POWs. Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia. Yes, "horrific". But if we put a number then what would be the death rate of Axis POW in Soviet captivity?


Most German POWs were held for <b>ten years after the war.</B>Wrong. Do the reading.


So, Chevan, Egorka, please do try to use some research a bit before posting some biased answer... I can only speak for myself, but I'm getting sick of your cold-war mentality. This forum is not about who's country was better/suffered the most/etc, it's about the historic facts.
Ohhh my... no more comments...

Panzerknacker
03-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Like possible is possible, probable is not much, I ve seen histories of Luftwaffe pilots who deserted and some Heer who "deserted" but in fact I believe those cases are "last ditch" , the german just trying to not get bad treated and embraced the comunism, but mostly those were cocodrile tears.

bas
03-03-2008, 10:22 PM
I personally don't know of any desertion cases, but I don't see why it would be such a hard thing to believe that it happened, even while the Germans were still on the advance. War after all is hell and it affects people differently.
Why is it such a stretch to think that a hardened Nazi breaks down and cries like a baby when shelled by artillery for the first time?

As for German POWs in Soviet hands, it is historic fact that the last mass release of POWs was in 1955. Most were released in waves between 1950 and then. So depending on when you were caught you could expect at least 5 - 10 years of captivity.

As for the actual survival rate that was proportional to when you were caught. Those that were captured between 1941 and 1943 had an atrocious death rate while the chances of returning home improved proportionally after 1943.

For the record "Other Losses" By James Bacque is not a reliable source and
"Other Losses" as well as his subsequent book, are absolute rubbish. "Other losses" itself was refuted by a panel of historians led by Stephen Ambrose.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=130908 This link also contains lots of links to other discussion topics on the treatment of German POWs by the Allies.

Possible war crimes committed by SS Wiking:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=135203

Chevan
03-04-2008, 02:01 AM
I don't know where you see any glorification of the Nazi in what I wrote.
Why don't you start a thread on russian civilian casualties instead of always coming back to it everywhere?

I have started it already .
But his is wery close matter indeed.
Just if one tells about fate of Germans POWs - this is not bad idea to compare it with the fate of SOviets Pows in GErmans camps.
How do you think?
Sorry for OFF topic.

Egorka
03-04-2008, 03:20 AM
As for German POWs in Soviet hands, it is historic fact that the last mass release of POWs was in 1955. Most were released in waves between 1950 and then. So depending on when you were caught you could expect at least 5 - 10 years of captivity.
Hi,
Thanx. Here is a little correction though:

By far most of the German POWs were released BEFORE 1950.
In fact it depended on the POW health condition. The weak ones were sent in 1946 - 1948 as Onkel Jo did not want to feed them and they went home earlier. The healthy ones were sent home in the period 1948-1950.

Here is the rough overvew:

end 1941 - 9.000
19/Nov/1942 - 19.782
15/Feb/1943 - 291.856
May 1945 - 2.400.000 of German POWs
12/Mar/1947 - 988.500 of German POWs
1950 - 22.546 of Germans accused of crimes.
1956 - 0


As for the actual survival rate that was proportional to when you were caught. Those that were captured between 1941 and 1943 had an atrocious death rate while the chances of returning home improved proportionally after 1943.
Bas, take a look at this thread (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4501). Besides some quarrelling it has some good info on the subject. :)

windrider
03-04-2008, 07:03 AM
"Other Losses" as well as his subsequent book, are absolute rubbish. "Other losses" itself was refuted by a panel of historians led by Stephen Ambrose.
Thanks for the input.
From what I read in the link you provided, the absolute rubbish seems refer to the assumption by the author that it was deliberate behavior instead of blunder... Which surely did piss off historians on the victors side, don't you think?
This said, the book is mostly based on official US army records. They had to account for all POW deaths and are listed in the records, included in the book. I suggest you read it and make your own opinion on the matter.
I sometimes wonder who won the war... Germany and Japan have been and are still economic
superpowers. USA is controlled by Bush and hid gang and Russians "vote" for Putin!
sorry...off topic!

Nickdfresh
03-04-2008, 09:46 AM
I have to say that I wouldn't blame Soviets in the least for killing German POWs, after what the likes of the "Blowtorch Brigade" did to their towns and villages. Their woman and children...

windrider
03-04-2008, 10:51 AM
Sure, me neither. War is so fu...-up sometimes.
I,ve seen "Mein Krieg" documentary the other day about 3 or 4 soldiers (german) that had filmed in 8mm during the war, and still possesed it.(it's a wonder how they managed to do it?) They were commenting the sequences as it showed.
Some went to russia as POW and relate their experience
Look for it on the net if you get a chance, the site I've seen it on is now closing...

Chevan
03-05-2008, 02:48 AM
I have to say that I wouldn't blame Soviets in the least for killing German POWs, after what the likes of the "Blowtorch Brigade" did to their towns and villages. Their woman and children...

What are "likers of "Blowtorch Brigade"?

Nickdfresh
03-05-2008, 02:58 AM
What are "likers of "Blowtorch Brigade"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Peiper

Chevan
03-05-2008, 03:45 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Peiper

During its move from Lanzerath, Belgium to La Gleize, the kampfgruppe had murdered about 300 American POWs, most notably in the neighbourhood of Malmedy. Moreover, in the area of Stavelot, over 100 Belgian civilians (including women and children) were killed by units under Peiper’s command.

Oh common Nick the 300 POWs and 100 civils is a childish with comparition with "activity"
of SS-Sturmbrigade Oskar Dirlewanger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Sturmbrigade_Dirlewanger

His "SS battalion" of criminals has killed much more childrens ONLY in Warsaw in august 1944.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Polish_civilians_murdered_by_German-SS-troops_in_Warsaw_Uprising_Warsaw_August_1944.jpg
The polish civiils killed without any rules by the SS brigade of Dirlivanfer during "pacification" of Warsaw.

Panzerknacker
03-05-2008, 05:38 PM
I,ve seen "Mein Krieg" documentary the other day about 3 or 4 soldiers (german) that had filmed in 8mm during the war, and still possesed it.(it's a wonder how they managed to do it?) They were commenting the sequences as it showed.
Some went to russia as POW and relate their experience
Look for it on the net if you get a chance, the site I've seen it on is now closing...

Yup, I saw it too, very interesting and crude, I have the show burned in DVD.

Fennica
03-06-2008, 01:56 AM
How is exactly long "years and years"?

"When the war ended, the German POWs were shipped home — unless they were held by the Red Army. Germans were still being released from Soviet POW camps in 1955. Some probably were never released and spent their lives in captivity."

-I have read and heard similar things quite often when it comes to German POWs in SU.


Lake Ilmen... is not it end of 1941 - beggining 1942? It is not the end of the war at all.This I actually don't know. What happened in Lake Ilmen?


They were no all Nazis, but most of them were. They were skilled, disciplinned and ideologicaly robust - the most dangerous enemy. They were ideologically "pure" core in the very beginning, but then they also were not effective fighting force. Normal field army did better.
-I can say that from the 2000 men going to fight to the SS from Finland, many if not most were not nazis, they just hated the Reds. Finnish front was stabilized and those 2000 men were "assurance" to Germans that Finns are with them.(and they returned as soon as situation heated up back home)


For your info not only Soviets had hard attitude towards SS. On the western front the German tank crews were affraid to surrender in their black uniform as they resembled SS uniforms. Why were they affraid?They were afraid of halo put on top of them. Waffen SS fought using camo, not all black.(my friend in the states is a re-enactment trooper)
But I agree that fanatism in small amounts added with best equipment available and very hard training results eventually a good fighting core.

Fennica
03-06-2008, 02:07 AM
Oh my god , now you are talking with me:)Not really, since you will not listen, hear or learn. You wont bother with facts, but rather make things up and keep on drumming on behalf of them until you yourself are convinced.


What a surprise.Sure you know who was a real savage to the POWs and civils on the occuped lands:)
We saw the photos in other thread.I looked into the matter. Did you?
I even know the name of the man whos photoalbum held the original photo, and situation really was very close to what I suspected.
-Since it is fruitless to try to reason with you, or to tell you what happened, I wont bother.


Now your revisionism has been showed clearly.Perhaeps someone else is doing all the revisioning, and the rest of us are left to try and tell how matters were. Until you present Soviet propaganda gems, that is.


Sure not all of them were criminals, but it was proved that Waffen SS were used agains civils( in so called "anti-partisan" operations) where they killed even the children ( like the sadly known Bach-Zelevskij who "pacificated" the Warsaw uprising with awful cruelty).Agreed. And Soviets stopped and let Polish die.


The Waffen SS/SS has been called as criminal organisation after the war ( the Nurenberg trial) for its wide partisipation in Ethnical mass murders.It was a normal military organization in the end of war. Our Civil Guard was also labeled as criminal organization, as was Lotta Svärd.


Being the fanatically devoted for Nazy ideas - the Waffen SS was universal instrument of killing.Halo, anyone?
They succeeded miserably in the beginning of war. Only after decent commanders came along did they get affective.


I still know nothing about crimes of Finnish Battalion of Waffen SS in Caucaus, but just give me a bit more time:)They were said to be one of the best units, and where they stood, no Red prevailed. Hardly surprising, they were veterans way before joining the Waffen SS.
Also be sure to check when they left.

Egorka
03-06-2008, 03:32 AM
I have read and heard similar things quite often when it comes to German POWs in SU.
I already answered on this one:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119756&postcount=15


This I actually don't know. What happened in Lake Ilmen?
Tikhvin defence operation (16.10.41-18.11.41) (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/td.htm)
Tikhvin offensive operation (10.11.41-30.12.41) (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/tihk.htm)

BTW, from the same site:
Hanko island defence (22.06.41-02.12.41) (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/hank.htm)
Fights on the Finnish front (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/fin.htm)


They were ideologically "pure" core in the very beginning, but then they also were not effective fighting force. Normal field army did better.Why is that?


-I can say that from the 2000 men going to fight to the SS from Finland, many if not most were not nazis, they just hated the Reds.
I do not know about Finish SS troops, but out of the Danish 6000 strong SS force most were Nazis. Most is like 2/3 or something.

By the way you keep saying "hated Reds" like it somehow suppose to be seen as a virtue.


Waffen SS fought using camo, not all black.(my friend in the states is a re-enactment trooper)
The point is that in the eyes of an ordinary GI an SS nazi assosiated with black uniform. And this worried German tank crues.
It is not like I make it up you know. And no, I did not read it in a russian book.

Fennica
03-06-2008, 04:40 AM
I already answered on this one:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119756&postcount=15

Tikhvin defence operation (16.10.41-18.11.41) (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/td.htm)
Tikhvin offensive operation (10.11.41-30.12.41) (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/tihk.htm)

BTW, from the same site:
Hanko island defence (22.06.41-02.12.41) (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/hank.htm)
Fights on the Finnish front (http://lenbat.narod.ru/eng/fin.htm)I noticed, but I also have a habit to answer before reading the thread forwards.
Thanks for the links, they appear very good.


Why is that?No actual combat experience and no healthy respect towards the opposing force. Green officers with biased opinions on top of that, and suddenly reasons are clear.


I do not know about Finish SS troops, but out of the Danish 6000 strong SS force most were Nazis. Most is like 2/3 or something.Here it was seen as an assurance.


By the way you keep saying "hated Reds" like it somehow suppose to be seen as a virtue.After the civil war, reds and whites in Finland were separated, but SU changed all that.
But the viewpoints towards communism was still very much like it was during Civil War. Not hating Russians or Soviets per se, but the ideology which drives them to conquer.


The point is that in the eyes of an ordinary GI an SS nazi assosiated with black uniform. And this worried German tank crues.
It is not like I make it up you know. And no, I did not read it in a russian book.I know, don't worry. The images of an SS officer with black dress uniform have little to do with actual combat outfit, but mental image is what many times counts.
But black is and has been the main colour for most Armor troops since the beginning of the Tank-era.

Chevan
03-06-2008, 05:32 AM
I looked into the matter. Did you?
So why you don't look from different sides on it?
Or do you think that Fiinish "national" point a bit better that russian one?


I even know the name of the man whos photoalbum held the original photo, and situation really was very close to what I suspected.
-Since it is fruitless to try to reason with you, or to tell you what happened, I wont bother.

Sure you know his name coz i linked his site :)
And coz you try to invent the nonsense about "women trooper" - yo better do not bother any more times:)


Perhaeps someone else is doing all the revisioning, and the rest of us are left to try and tell how matters were. Until you present Soviet propaganda gems, that is.

Well, it hardly to call the "ethnical murders" in WW2 as the Soviet propoganda m but it seem you have to use it.
OK , as you wish , if it will help you ...


Agreed. And Soviets stopped and let Polish die.

This is very disputable endeed, but we all know for sure who did kill them- your old friends-voluntaries from Waffen SS:)


It was a normal military organization in the end of war. Our Civil Guard was also labeled as criminal organization, as was Lotta Sv&#228;rd.

Sure it was Normal military organisation ..
Just "Soviet" Nurenberg Tribunal just a bit hasty to callit as a criminals
Do not worry buddy, they did nothing except fighting with soviets ( end even did not executed the jews).:)
You as a tupical revisionist better know about this matter:)


Halo, anyone?

Said Fennica, after leaving the finnish forest...


They succeeded miserably in the beginning of war. Only after decent commanders came along did they get affective.

True , the most cruel of ther crimes have been commited during the last 1-2 years of war.

Fennica
03-06-2008, 07:40 AM
So why you don't look from different sides on it?
Or do you think that Fiinish "national" point a bit better that russian one?I suddenly remebered why it's futile to waste time with you.

http://koti.haminetti.net/sotilaspojat/hattuvaara.html
-Here Veteran is telling about the engagements and captures of Female Soviet troopers. Use translation programs.

http://www.suomenkuvalehti.fi/sk-netti/uutiset-ja-politiikka/kotimaa/alaston-kuva-sodasta.aspx
-Here is study of the photos you twist and turn into your view of matters. Healthy dose of truth for you.


Sure you know his name coz i linked his site :)
And coz you try to invent the nonsense about "women trooper" - yo better do not bother any more times:)So, here is Chevan, saying that womans were not in uniforms during WW2.
Well, just about every source says that women were fighting alongside with men in the Red Army, but I imagine Chevans claims must be true, he says so.
The site you linked is not the owner of the photo.


Well, it hardly to call the "ethnical murders" in WW2 as the Soviet propoganda m but it seem you have to use it.
OK , as you wish , if it will help you ...Translation needed. How is this an answer to my saying, and what is this lad trying to spill out.


This is very disputable endeed, but we all know for sure who did kill them- your old friends-voluntaries from Waffen SS:)And now we see how I suddenly am old budies with Waffen SS.. Seriously, do mods work here?
You might want to read about voluntary SS troops, it helps and you wont look quite as dumb.


Sure it was Normal military organisation..Lotta Sv&#228;rd was a military organization??!! Well done! Yet another way to twist facts!!
And Civil Guard wasn't?? What do you even know about it? I'd imagine not much.


Just "Soviet" Nurenberg Tribunal just a bit hasty to callit as a criminals
Do not worry buddy, they did nothing except fighting with soviets ( end even did not executed the jews).:)Again, he pulls unrelated matter in, and tries to blackpaint all he can. Jewish question was not a question here. Study some, then talk. Jews living in Finland are Finns, talk finnish, fight for Finland.


You as a tupical revisionist better know about this matter:)I see only one of that sort; you.


Said Fennica, after leaving the finnish forest...No, I am still here, enjoying our advanced and stable democracy.


True , the most cruel of ther crimes have been commited during the last 1-2 years of war.By Soviets.
Whatever inhuman and cruel actions the Nazis do in the name of their ideology, Soviets returned that favour with intrests. Might want to check that one too.

Chevan
03-06-2008, 10:54 AM
I suddenly remebered why it's futile to waste time with you.

Oh i did not know you suffer by disaster of memory.
And you suddenly remembered....this is a good sign.


http://koti.haminetti.net/sotilaspojat/hattuvaara.html
-Here Veteran is telling about the engagements and captures of Female Soviet troopers. Use translation programs.

http://www.suomenkuvalehti.fi/sk-netti/uutiset-ja-politiikka/kotimaa/alaston-kuva-sodasta.aspx
-Here is study of the photos you twist and turn into your view of matters. Healthy dose of truth for you.

Oh , Great.
What translation program do you prefer?
you think the finnish is the second greatest language in the world?


So, here is Chevan, saying that womans were not in uniforms during WW2.

Oh my funny friend.
Unfortinatelly you have not just disaster of memory but and sight too:)
when did i say that womans were not in uniforms during WW2?
And Where did you see the "woman in uniform" at that photo, my half-blind opponent?



The site you linked is not the owner of the photo.

This page of the site , that i've linked contain the his personal ww2 photo-archive? and his name has been written on the top of the site.


Translation needed. How is this an answer to my saying, and what is this lad trying to spill out.
And now we see how I suddenly am old budies with Waffen SS.. Seriously, do mods work here?

Yeas / they are still here.
And i wonder why you still have not been banned for revisionism:)


You might want to read about voluntary SS troops, it helps and you wont look quite as dumb.

I've read enough about voluntaries of Waffen SS, their race hate and cruely toward the "low races"


Lotta Svärd was a military organization??!! Well done! Yet another way to twist facts!!
And Civil Guard wasn't?? What do you even know about it? I'd imagine not much.

WTF Lotta Svärd/
We tell about Waffen SS at all.
So the particular occasions of inhuman cruely was very tupical for that units especially in last period of war.


Again, he pulls unrelated matter in, and tries to blackpaint all he can. Jewish question was not a question here. Study some, then talk. Jews living in Finland are Finns, talk finnish, fight for Finland.

Not you say that the Waffen SS have no any relation to the execution of jews?:)
And do not call the Nurenberg tribunal please as "unrelated matter" here.
Remember about mods.


I see only one of that sort; you.

Oh there is no any problem, we have already saw you have a weak sight :)


No, I am still here, enjoying our advanced and stable democracy.

You still here ...in the forest......:)


By Soviets.
Whatever inhuman and cruel actions the Nazis do in the name of their ideology, Soviets returned that favour with intrests. Might want to check that one too.
Oh really?
Did the soviets treated to death the 1/3 of finnish civil population, as it has been commited by finns in the occuped Karelia?
Mey be you would like to check this statistic too?

Nickdfresh
03-06-2008, 11:26 AM
Oh common Nick the 300 POWs and 100 civils is a childish with comparition with "activity"
of SS-Sturmbrigade Oskar Dirlewanger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Sturmbrigade_Dirlewanger

His "SS battalion" of criminals has killed much more childrens ONLY in Warsaw in august 1944.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Polish_civilians_murdered_by_German-SS-troops_in_Warsaw_Uprising_Warsaw_August_1944.jpg
The polish civiils killed without any rules by the SS brigade of Dirlivanfer during "pacification" of Warsaw.

Of course. But my point was that the actual "Blowtorch BATTALION" was stationed on the Eastern Front before Peiper came to the Ardennes. And his methods of killing anyone he deemed a problem and using terror was learned there.

I believe some wanted to try him for these crimes after he was found not guilty of the Malmedy Massacre because of the fouled up US Army CIC/CID investigation. He wasn't and lived in France until 1976, when he was killed in a mysterious shooting and arson incident. Theories abound about who killed him.....

imi
07-11-2008, 06:52 AM
It's hard to beleive to me,any SS soldiers was a deserter in the eastern front,especially in the latest years,it's not the best business be a pow in east,one of my old friend(RIP) tell me in the russian lagers everybody must take off his uniform top,and hands must up.
Who have the tatto in his armpit with his blood type,separated each other immediatly,and move this group to a pit to shoot down.
Many tank commander,or staff must to die,because they have black uniform with Totenkopf,and the russians soldiers or civilians watch only the skull and think false,and lynch these unlucky wehrmacht soldiers.

sam davis
01-19-2009, 02:47 PM
This is tupical mistake that soviets killed all SS/Waffen SS soldiers.
Sure many of them were executed.
But just look at Baltic veterans of Waffen SS- today many of them ( who succesfully survived the GULAG, to the contrast of about 2.5 soviet POWs in Germany) walks in parades here.
Besides there was a great differnce between the German SS and Waffen SS of foreign "voluntaries".

I totally agree with that statement..Chevan...there was a big difference..between the german ss..and the volunteer ss..my dad was with the hungarian ss...served on the russian front...captured by the russians..released in august 1945..didnt kill him...captured going back to his homeland..of course considered a TRAITOR...sentenced to death..but released by a JEWISH LADY.....would love information on her..if anyone knows anything...escapes to AUSTRIA..OF COURSE....joins the AMERICAN military..as MILITARY POLICE...or civilan guard think thats what it was called...from 1950---1954....comes to AMERICA IN 1954....IF anyone has information..on my FATHER...GREATLY APPRECIATED...born in seygeds hungary on september 6b 1917...died nov.1965...seen only one photo..of him in his ss uniform doing research..thanks for any help

sam davis
01-19-2009, 02:49 PM
fathers name...was JANOS MURIN..SERVED IN THE HUNGARIAN SS

Cojimar 1945
01-21-2009, 09:34 PM
The Germans did kill a number of civilians in Britain in bombing raids and I would certainly expect that this would have lead to reprisals by British soldiers.

AirdefMike
01-25-2009, 11:20 AM
The Finnish Volunteer Battalion was about 2000 strong unit which fought in Waffen SS Division Wiking in the Eastern Front during 1941 - 1943 (a 2 year agreement of service between Finland and Germany). After the service time expired the unit was sent back to Finland and was disbanded with the men distributed into various units of the Finnish army.

The Bn is often referred as a "Hostage" or a "Pawn Battalion".

There was a clear distinction between the Finnish and German (+ other non-German) SS troopers:

The Finns as soldiers were veterans of the Winter War and thus possessed a healthy respect for the Soviet soldiers and their fighting capabilities.

The Finns as citizens of a democracy had a different set of values as human beings as they were NOT politically indocrinated and thus were not filled any kind of nazi humbug of racial superiority.

So, it is not that surprising that the Finnish Volunteer SS Bn has no records of war crimes.

It is up to Chevan to make them up if he wants to. :lol: