The Huertgen Forest

[Nickdfresh]

Senseless bloodbath of a blunder or a sensible gamble that failed?

I'm thinking the US command should have been sent to the front-lines for it...

[overlord644]

yes, senseless, with massive casualties. one day F company of the 22nd infantry regiment went foward for an attack, something like 12 guys walked out.

also has anyone not heard of the thanksgiving dinner incident?

[Nickdfresh]

Not the one in Hurtgen. (There was also one in Korean, 1950)

[overlord644]

oh, well when Roosevelt declared that each man in the US army would receive a turkey dinner for thanksgiving, men all over the 4th ID begged their commanding officers not to make them eat it. But sure enough all over the hurtgen forest men were gathered together to recieve their thanksgiving turkey. needless to say, with entire companies of infantry gathered together, the german artillery observers didnt waste the opportunity

[GliderInfantry]

I think they could have gone around the forest right,

[overlord644]

I think they could have gone around the forest right,

not sure what u mean, but if you mean that they would be safe under the trees (which is pretty much all of hurtgen) then thats the worst place you could be because the artillery shells explode in the treetops basically doubling the amount of shrapnel, since you have to add massive chunks of wood into the mix

[GliderInfantry]

I n my last post it might have been mis- understood I meant for the american forces to by pass it to go around it to isolate it like they did to some of the japanese held islands in the pacific.any thoughts on this

[Nickdfresh]

It's been a while since I read specifically about the Hurtgen, but I believe the plan had something to do with an amateurish attempt at infiltrating the forest and surprising the Germans on the other side of the Ardennes after engineers opened a road, and to fight a bit of a holding action forcing the Germans to disperse their forces. Instead, they handed the Wehrmacht prime opportunities for cover and concealment of ambushes and counterattacks rather than their own advance, and basically squandered their great advantages in mobility and firepower over the Germans...

BTW, may avatar is of a soldier during a pause in the action...

[Drake]

Fighting germans in a german forrest, never a good idea since 9 AD ;)

[gumalangi]

Fighting germans in a german forrest, never a good idea since 9 AD ;)

not according to riddley scott ... :mrgreen:

[Drake]

Yeah, he's quite the guy for historic accuracy ;)

[gumalangi]

not only him though,. most of other guys from sacredwood

[GliderInfantry]

not sure what u mean, but if you mean that they would be safe under the trees (which is pretty much all of hurtgen) then thats the worst place you could be because the artillery shells explode in the treetops basically doubling the amount of shrapnel, since you have to add massive chunks of wood into the mix
no complete by pass it isolate it the war would be over in 6 months or so and the wood was no strategic value that i know of am I correct?

[GliderInfantry]

The germans called it Die Totenfabrik or death factory
with good reason I guess.


Mod note: We already have a thread on the Battle of the Huertgen Forest.

[GliderInfantry]

yes the germans were able to be in a good defensive position , in the forest you had to fight inf. tactics and were unable to use tanks, arty or cas .

[HAWKEYE]

The U.S. Official History estimated that 120,000 troops, plus replacements, were committed to Hürtgen; by the end there had been 24,000 casualties plus 9,000 non-battle. Two divisions, the U.S. 4th Infantry Division and the U.S. 9th Infantry Division, were so badly mauled that they were withdrawn from the line to recuperate.

The battle for Schmidt cost 6,184 U.S. casualties — compared with about 4,000 losses by the two divisions at Omaha Beach. German casualties were fewer than 3,000.

In the second phase, the U.S. 4th Division had advanced 1½ miles by November 20, having suffered 1,500 battle casualties plus non-battle casualties numbering in the several hundreds due to trench foot, frostbite, and exhaustion. After two weeks, three miles had been gained for 4,053 battle and 2,000 non-battle casualties, bringing the November totals to 170 officers and 4,754 men.

One reference book I read talked about the new troops arriving at Aachen and the dead had not been gathered or buried in months. There were rotting corpses all over the ground. This was not what a fresh faced boy just out of boot camp needed to see.


There should never have been a "second phase" of this battle, it was useless slaughter.

[the_librarian]

Hi all,

Sorry for any dupes, but was reading up on this last night and ran across this:

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/HuertgenForest/HF.htm

Thought might add to the discussion....

[Nickdfresh]

Good find, thanks...

[Cpt_Prahl]

Huertgen was a total blunder and waste of American lives it served very little if any tactical importance and could have been surrounded and bombed into oblivion much like the russians did to all the trapped Germans in another forest south of berlin.

There were many other divisons involved in the battle the 1st Divison also fought in the Huertgen but as much of what the Big Red One did isnt written about or explored much.

[kamehouse]

A good account of the Hurtgen Forest battle:
"Victory was beyond their grasp,with the 272nd Volksgrenadier division from the Hurtgen forest to the heart of the Reich" by Doug Nash
@Librarian,thanks for the link.

[Dara]

Senseless bloodbath of a blunder or a sensible gamble that failed?

I'm thinking the US command should have been sent to the front-lines for it...

Senseless bloodbath perpetrated by people who could not possibly have known what the terrain was like and didn't seem to care all that much to find out. A horrific display of officers with maps dictating (badly and with very, very little to gain from such manuevers) the actions of those doing the actual fighting, IMHO.

[gunner-B]

Dara

You sound like what a critic would have said about WW1 Western Front battles.

Paul

[Dara]

Really? I just find that this was one of the most disgusting displays of trying to gain something of little value at the cost of so much and so many. The more I learn about this, the more I find that I am sick to my stomach.

[colonel hogan]

i know that the 4th and 1st inf. div. fought there along with the 36th div. and 442 inf.reg.

[gunner-B]

I'm sure I read somewhere many years ago (I think it was in After the Battle Magazine) that a crewman (men) of a Sherman Tank were not recovered from their destroyed vehicle in Hurtgen Forest until many years after the war. It was in a cordoned of area strewn with glass mines which was too dangerous to clear. I can't remember if the unfortunate(s) were recovered in 1963 or 1973 or some such date.

Paul

[flamethrowerguy]

I'm sure I read somewhere many years ago (I think it was in After the Battle Magazine) that a crewman (men) of a Sherman Tank were not recovered from their destroyed vehicle in Hurtgen Forest until many years after the war. It was in a cordoned of area strewn with glass mines which was too dangerous to clear. I can't remember if the unfortunate(s) were recovered in 1963 or 1973 or some such date.

Paul

Right, Paul, however it was not a Sherman. Please look here:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/modern/HiH_301_1%23.html

[gunner-B]

Right, Paul, however it was not a Sherman. Please look here:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/modern/HiH_301_1%23.html

If I recall right, the caption that I saw in the 'After the Battle' magazine showed a Sherman under a few trees fenced off in about an acre of land. By the looks of the picture it seemed to have been taken long after the war.
It goes to show Just how dangerous the Glass mines were and how hazardous it must have been for those brave American troops.

Paul

Sorry about the delay in replying to this thread as I was away for the week visiting family.

Happy and prosperous new year to all at WW2 in Colour.