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View Full Version : Suppressors/silencers for small arms.



Panzerknacker
02-01-2008, 03:32 PM
Does anybody have drawings/pictures and some data about silencers used by the german military. I am very much interested since recently purchased some duralumiun barstock and want to made a replica in my lathes.

I search in Lexikon der Wehrmacht but the info is really vague.
Any help would be preciated.

George Eller
02-01-2008, 03:54 PM
Does anybody have drawings/pictures and some data about silencers used by the german military. I am very much interested since recently purchased some duralumiun barstock and want to made a replica in my lathes.

I seach in lexikon der Wehrmacht but the info is really vague.
Any help would be preciated.
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A "replica" huh... :)

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Panzerknacker
02-01-2008, 04:57 PM
A "replica" huh...
That was me being politically correct :rolleyes:

Obviously the "replica" will be fitted into a firearm, 22 magnum for being more precise.

Aniway I found out that the word for supressor is "schalldampfer", but all I get with the altavista and google image search is modern firearms and motorbike silenciators.
I repeat any help will be very preciated.

tankgeezer
02-01-2008, 05:43 PM
Our P.K's Italian heritage must be coming out,,,,,
There are entire books about suppressors/silencers, I'm sure you will find a source for one on line.
Earlier versions were either of the "Baffle" or "diffusion" types, baffles were just pressed steel washers, in a tube that fastened to the bbl. these washers were shaped in section somewhat like a bundt cake pan, the inner hole being of the needed dia. for the caliber, this would retain the gasses while the slug passed through, then expand to fill the next chamber, on and on until the slug exits, and the gas now slowed, makes little sound.
Diffusers, use a tube within a tube, the inner being the part that fastens to the weapon, it is drilled to just larger than the needed dia. this tube then has small holes drilled along the length on all four sides, to allow the gas to bleed into the diffuser chamber. the inner tube is then wound with ordinary metal window screen 2which extends to the last inch of the tubes length. Wound not too tight, or loose, and enough to allow the outer tube to fit over it all.
for the last inch, wide washers of the screen material are cut to fit into the outer tubes, and slide over the inner one.
The last part is a threaded flat cap, that screws into the end of the outer tube, this compresses the washers, and snugs up the entire device. remember to drill a hole in the center of the endcap,, so the slug can leave

Panzerknacker
02-01-2008, 06:59 PM
Yeap, I have some books like "modern Firearms silencers" by David J.Truby.

My "problem" is that those said nothing about supressors of de German Army in WW2.

tankgeezer
02-02-2008, 02:17 AM
There were some other books too,, about not so modern snuffers, and spy guns, sleeve guns, such type assassination weapons,, that might have a pic of one,, being such an arcane device, there may be no images. Though I do hope you find some.

Splinter54
02-02-2008, 04:36 AM
Didn't Skorzeny use a captured silenced Sten SMG?

And i think you could use a silencer for the Walther PPK, because that gun was developped in that era - but if it was used with a silencer in WW2, i don't know - but James Bond used to use a PPK with silencer :D
All it would need is a Waffenamt Stamp with the NS Eagle on it and it would look like a real silencer :P

Panzerknacker
02-02-2008, 07:39 AM
Sorry but I dont know about Skorzeny silenced Sten.



And i think you could use a silencer for the Walther PPK, because that gun was developped in that era - but if it was used with a silencer in WW2, i don't know - but James Bond used to use a PPK with silencer :D
All it would need is a Waffenamt Stamp with the NS Eagle on it and it would look like a real silencer :P


Yup, the PPK is a very "silencer liked" gun because it fixed barrel, I do used a silencer in my Bersa .22 some time ago, But I made the mistake to use plastic instead metal and it did not lasted too long.

By the way the old Bersas are very much like the PPKs. Even they had a treaded barrel muzzle that make everything easier.

Bersa model 25

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9070/bersa7xe.jpg



Though I do hope you find some.

The seach will continue !!

tankgeezer
02-02-2008, 08:32 AM
Okay P.K. I had a thought this morning, I recall an article printed in the magazine Guns&Ammo in the 70's the topic was a garden silencer of shooting quietly in ones garden, (backyard for those of Colonial persuasion) I believe it was produced by Mauser, and was commonly available in the early part of the 20th century. It was a baffle type, so if you google up Mauser+silencer+suppressor+garden you may find info on it. It was then, and now the practice of the military utilizing commercially produced items off the shelf for military purposes, so you might get lucky..

Man of Stoat
02-02-2008, 03:25 PM
The "silenced PPK" used in from Russia with Love is actually a Browning 1910 made by FN...

Splinter54
02-03-2008, 03:37 AM
I searched a bit:

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http://www.small-arms-import.ch/books.php?xy=24
SILENCERS FOR HAND FIREARMS : German silencers since the 2nd WW - so eventually you might find some ideas looking at the very early models of silencers?

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http://www.patronensammler.de/patrone_des_monats.htm
Mai 2005
7,92 x 57 Nahpatrone

Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Spezialpatrone zur Verwendung aus Waffen mit Schalldämpfer aus dem II. Weltkrieg, Deutschland. Auffällig ist die Markierung. Die Hülse ist komplett grün lackiert. Hersteller ist cg (Finower Industrie GmbH)
http://www.patronensammler.de/images/patrone_des_monats/79M.41.01.jpg
http://www.patronensammler.de/images/patrone_des_monats/79M.41.02.jpg

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http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/pistolen-R.htm
Some infos about silenced pistols.

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http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?p=137123&sid=7b3ac6958a7186f228b71f4bfbdcc6f1
They say, that even the StG44 was able to be equipped with a silencer - i doubt that :rolleyes:

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And now a great thing i discovered at wikipedia :mrgreen:
The Ruger MK II with integrated silencer (looks a bit like the Noiseless Pistol PB1s - the modified Makarov) - looks really like a very modernized version of a Luger - love that gun :)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Ruger_MK_II_with_TacSol_upper_and_Quest_large.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-04-2008, 04:23 PM
Thanks Splinter, well, if the germans had a devoted factories for the dedicated subsonic ammo ( ammo that the western allies had not) is a good indication of the use of the schalldampfer was no a minor issue.

1000ydstare
02-05-2008, 03:26 AM
Depends why they wanted the Sub-Sonic Ammo. It has other uses, than just for silenced weapons.

The slugs are often larger and more unstable. I am just guessing here, but for a "Trench Broom" such as the Long Lugers or similar from WW1, short range but an instant effect could be required. Also handy in Urban Ops, where the risks of Supersonic rounds bouncing of walls, etc goes up.

Likewise, the slaughter of Jews and other prisoners (which at the start of the war was largely done by gunfire, rather than the gasses used for the later "industrial" scale killings. Would also have benefited from such ammunition. Likewise anystray rounds wouldn't travel to far, and the risks of richochet are reduced.

The only large scale sileneced weapons I know of were the Sten and the Welrod, some of the Stens were produced in other countries including Poland, and a Carbine which was used in the Jungle alot and by Commandos (the De Lyle).

The Welrod was a 9mm pistol (single shot), all had fixed silencers that were part of the barrel and none removable. The Sten featured a canvass wrap around the barrel and silencer because of the heat it would build up during firing.

The Germans used captured silenced weapons, but I am not sure if they manufactured their own in any great numbers. The Sten Mk IIS (silenced mk 2s) even had a German designation (they must ahve been that prolific) of MP.751e. (All captured Stens were labeld MP.75(digit)e.

The Stens, Welrods and De lyles used the baffled silencer method.

The Germans seem to have relyed on add on silencers for their silencing requirments, but even they were rare. However it highly likly, that bar a few specialised units of commandos, that the Germans never saw a need for them. And the captured Sten MkIIS' may well have filled their requirements admirably. These were actually the most common silenced weapons used by the Germans.

I have found mention of the following weapons having add on silencers (albeit often rare examples or only prototypes), list below,

P-08 (add on silencer);pictures prove that it existed
Walther PP and PPK (add on silencer) pictures prove that it existed
P-38 were built after the war
Revolver 612(r) [Nagant 1885]: (add on silencer) prototype only, research carried out by the "SS-Waffenakademie"
G43: all G43 produced from mid-1944 onwards were fitted to use a suppressor, very rare.
K98K: rebuilt Soviet S-40 silencer


The following had fitted silencers
Steyr M12/M16 machine pistol used by the Brandenburgers (heavily cutdown version of the M12 and reduced capacity magazine)
Mp-40:prototype only
Kommando-Karabiner: special rifle with the silencer of the Mp 751(e)(the Sten MKIIS 1000ydstare), only four Karabiner built, but did see service.

The Germans didn't really go in for clandestine ops to the same level as teh British (including the various Resistance Movements in the occupied countries). Likewise, assasinations inside Germanys reach was really the job of the SS or Gestapo, who didn't really go in for the subtleties of the silenced weapon.

All of their attempts to silence weapons appear to be reengineering of British (mainly) weapons and at least one from Russia.

The British mainly went in for the baffles, as previously mentioned. The Russians seem to have favoured this method also. So at a guess, I would say the baffles is the way to go for a silenced German replica.

Panzerknacker
02-06-2008, 06:09 AM
I am spliting the artilley silencer post.

The post by 1000yds has been moved to the Moderators section to evaluate if there is a infraction involved.

1000ydstare
02-06-2008, 06:14 AM
Behave. Leave it in situ and get the mods to have a look at the whole thread. Or are you concerned that your post may be considered in a poor light?

I was going to ask about why you had allowed such a spurious excursion to the topic, without comment.

Panzerknacker
02-06-2008, 06:19 AM
No worry the supreme command of WW2incolor is very fair, ( even a little soft) and it will gave a look to the entire context.

By the way Thanks you for you non-insulting-Topic/related post earlier, but I am still looking for pictures of the silencers.

1000ydstare
02-06-2008, 06:23 AM
No worry the supreme command of WW2incolor is very fair, ( even a little soft) and it will gave a look to the entire context.

By the way Thanks you for you non-insulting-Topic/related post earlier, but I am still looking for pictures of the silencers.

Deligted to help old boy. I think you will find the vast majority of my posts are non-insulting.

Where is the Artillery silencer thread by the way? It would be nice for you to put a link in when you seperate threads like that. Just a thought.

As for the pictures of the silencers. I doubt many exist, except of the silenced Stens. As mentioned the Germans don't seem to have manufactured many past prototype point. I will mooch about to see if I can find some.

Regards the Supreme Commander of WW2incolor. I have never had any problems with the hierachy of this site, and regard them to be fair and balanced. Soft is a word I wouldn't use though.

Nickdfresh
02-06-2008, 07:43 AM
...
I was going to ask about why you had allowed such a spurious excursion to the topic, without comment.

I'm not getting into this...

But since when have off topic, if slightly related, posts ever been a big problem here? I'm pretty sure that at least half the threads here have at least some unrelated banter, and trying to universally enforce a rigid focus would make for a boring message board devoid of humour...

George Eller
02-06-2008, 08:09 AM
Where is the Artillery silencer thread by the way?
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Looks like it has been moved to the Off Topic - Militaria section, if you haven't found it already.

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Panzerknacker
02-06-2008, 08:08 PM
Gotcha !!

No...I didnt sink any cruiser, I just found out some images of sectioned german silencers.

Schalldampfer STD 6

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4089/sdt6je4.jpg

The design look extremely simple, it had 3 chambers and and bayonet like coupling. The first tapered baffle looks a bit tricky to manufacture in a lathe, probably was done by stamping.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3272/sdt62ce4.jpg

1000ydstare
02-07-2008, 01:39 AM
Looks very crude in comparaison to the British designs of the time.

Has it spent time underwater/ground or in some sort of treatment?

Panzerknacker
02-07-2008, 08:51 AM
According to the site it was found in a bomb hole.

Schauer silencer:

A civilian designer wich patented two design for for supressor one mit semihespherical baffles and other with conical baffles.

Model 1909

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/silenziatori_tedeschi_ww2/grandi/schauer.jpg



Model 1911.

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/silenziatori_tedeschi_ww2/grandi/billerbeck.jpg

So little space between baffles in this late design, I would feel more confortable with the first design. I have no data of decibel reduction but I am pretty sure the Mdel 1909 is the best.

Those were used in WW1, in very limited scale, but the subsonic ammo wasnt available at that time.

Firefly
02-07-2008, 09:34 AM
I'm not getting into this...

But since when have off topic, if slightly related, posts ever been a big problem here? I'm pretty sure that at least half the threads here have at least some unrelated banter, and trying to universally enforce a rigid focus would make for a boring message board devoid of humour...

Off topic from time tp time is very much allowed, its how new thread ideas often spring up.

Thread hijack is frowned upon though.

tankgeezer
02-07-2008, 11:19 AM
The 1909 model is the closest to the baffle suppressor shown in the gun n' ammo article, save that it wasn't tapered. The baffle shape is also the same.

Panzerknacker
02-07-2008, 03:55 PM
:) Probably you saw this:

SD T3

Schalldampfer ST 3 was a WW2 development of the tapred baffles Schauer system, teh total lenght was 298mm and its diameter 38 mm. It had a hinged coupling with a side adjustement.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8618/sdt3ny5.jpg


And this was a very deadly and stealth package specially using the nahpatrone ammo, the K-98K with Sd T3 supressor and ZF 39 scope, its only lesser aspect was that the subsonic ammo has only a 120-150 meters of effective range.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8514/222fj7.jpg

1000ydstare
02-08-2008, 02:15 AM
I don't thik this would completely silence a weapon such as this, and with sub sonic ammunition the rifle becomes practically useless in most applications.

It would be handy in keeping noise down and flash. To aid the shooter in hiding though.

Panzerknacker
02-08-2008, 05:18 PM
Well, it would be interesting to know how was the terminal balistic ( i.e, effect in human body) of the Nahpatrone at some distance. The muzzle speed of the 190 grains projectile was some 300 m/s, at 100 meters in range that probably was about 210-200 m/s.

Could that bullet with reduced speed and energy kill ? I believe so.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5092/nahseznq1.jpg

1000ydstare
02-09-2008, 03:12 AM
Highly likely to be still capable of penetrating flesh, not neccesarily killing. However accuracy would fall off at the slower speed.

Man of Stoat
02-09-2008, 10:21 AM
Right you lot, stop being silly.

Of course it can kill, that's what it was designed to do. The ballistics are still superior to military pistol ammunition.

I also see no reason why it would be less accurate at its intended range, and would certainly be easier to shoot with due to lower recoil.

Nickdfresh
02-09-2008, 06:38 PM
Absolutely. I would think that a reduced velocity rifle round is quite effective and short to intermediate ranges, since all of the energy would be transferred to the target...

Was not the .45ACP Carbine used by the SAS?

1000ydstare
02-10-2008, 02:22 AM
The de lisle carbine was based around a modified Thompson SMG barrel, many (even the following quote, refer to is as a "converted SMLE" or "based on SMLE" but in actual fact I wouldn't say it was particularly based on ANY existing weapon!!!!! Just used a few bits from the Thompson and a few bits from the SMLE.


The designer was William De Lisle. It was based on a Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mk III* converted to .45 ACP by modifying the receiver, altering the bolt/blothead, replacing the barrel with a modified Thompson submachine gun barrel, and using modified magazines from the M1911 pistol. The primary feature of the De Lisle was its very effective suppressor which made it very quiet in action - indeed working the bolt to chamber the next round makes a louder noise than firing a round.[1] The De Lisle carbine was used by British commandos and special forces, and was accurate to 250 metres.

The De Lisle was made in very limited numbers; 129 were produced during the period of 1942 to 1945 in three variations (Ford Dagenham Prototype, Sterling production and one Airborne prototype). Thompson submachine gun barrels were modified to provide the .45 calibre barrel, which was ported to provide a slow release of high pressure gas.

The suppressor, 2 inches in diameter, went all the way from the back of the barrel to well beyond the muzzle (the suppressor makes up half the overall length of the rifle), providing a very large volume of space to contain the gases produced by firing. This large volume was one of the keys to the effectiveness of the suppressor. The Lee-Enfield bolt was modified to feed the .45 ACP rounds, and the Lee-Enfield's magazine assembly was replaced with a new assembly that held a modified M1911 magazine.

The De Lisle was used by special military units during World War II and the Malayan Emergency.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/De_Lisle_Carbine_Folding_Stock.jpg
This is the only "folding stock" version made. The sling connections are on the side of the barrel and on the side of the weapon body (above the trigger).

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5452/delisle7452ny2.jpg
The wooden stocked version. The sling connections are on the bottom of the barrel and stock.

The weapons were made by two firms (129 in total) the Winchester made variant was fitted with sights for range and windage.

My bold. Could well have been used by the SAS in the Malayan Emergency.

Nickdfresh
02-10-2008, 07:54 AM
Ah yes, that's the one! She was a beaut!

Man of Stoat
02-10-2008, 09:25 AM
The conversion is less than trivial and involved reaming the bolt way, threading the barrel ahead of the chamber, cutting down and rethreading the bolt, drilling bleed holes into the barrel and so on.

Panzerknacker
02-10-2008, 09:19 PM
Just 129 ? I tough it was made in larger numbers.

The De Lisle is repeatedly quoted as the most quieter of the silenced weapons in WW2. And knowing the effects of the big fat .45 bullet the terminal ballistic shouldnt be bad either.

SD T1, SD T2, SD T4

The silencers SdT1, SdT2 and SdT4 are base d upon the Eissfeldt system; the first one is constituted from 16 rooms of expansion, 6 of which contains diaphragms in rubber.


Schalldämpfer SD T1

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/silenziatori_tedeschi_ww2/grandi/2.jpg

The SdT2 model, version simplified of the previous one, has one front expansion room only sluice from one series of diaphragms in rubber; this model came used also on the guns machine-guns Vollmer MP-38/40 and Mauser "Gerät Postdam" and MP 3008, German copies of the Sten Mk II.

SD T4 supressor for submachineguns.

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/silenziatori_tedeschi_ww2/grandi/3.jpg

The SdT4 model is subdivided inner from rubber diaphragms; it is the exact copy of the Soviet model S-41 employed on the semi-automatic gun mod. SVT-40.

George Eller
02-13-2008, 10:22 PM
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From: Combat and Survival: Volume 24, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, H. S. Stuttman Inc., 1991, pp 1408-1413

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7650/silencers01sh1.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1995/silencers02ei9.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3816/silencers03buk0.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7966/silencers03hn0.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9092/silencers04mq0.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3107/silencers05qp9.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3884/silencers06kj6.jpg

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Splinter54
02-14-2008, 02:23 AM
Thank you very much for sharing that article George Eller!!! It is very interessting! :)

George Eller
02-14-2008, 07:45 AM
Thank you very much for sharing that article George Eller!!! It is very interessting! :)
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You're very welcome Splinter :)

I'm glad you like it. ;)

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Panzerknacker
02-14-2008, 07:10 PM
Very nice George thanks, is interesting to realize that despite several types of silenced weapons in the market, the MP5D had almost wipe out the competition as the weapon of choice for special forces and SWAT teams.

It must be the typical "charm" of german weapons.:rolleyes:

George Eller
02-14-2008, 10:37 PM
Very nice George thanks, is interesting to realize that despite several types of silenced weapons in the market, the MP5D had almost wipe out the competition as the weapon of choice for special forces and SWAT teams.

It must be the typical "charm" of german weapons.:rolleyes:
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You're welcome Panzerknacker and thanks :)

Yes, the H&K MP5 has been a very popular weapon. Of course the article is copyrighted from 1991, so it's not the most current. According to the article, the De Lisle is the quietest silenced weapon ever developed. But, the H&K has had good sales worldwide. I guess it does have a certain sex appeal.

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Man of Stoat
02-15-2008, 03:55 AM
It's a shame that most of that article is wrong, particularly concerning the DeLisle. The photos they are using are of a civilian "lookalike" (which doesn't even look at that alike) based on a number 4, and with a civilian scope mount . Even the cutaway drawing is incorrect.

Also note that the silencer on the SA 80 is not on straight.

Absolute crap.

Panzerknacker
02-15-2008, 06:12 AM
Nothing here is crap, is just another post trying to solve my question, I dont see you posting a picture of the de Lisle of anything else..are you ?

No worry about it George, it must be the excess of Stoat.

Man of Stoat
02-15-2008, 07:43 AM
Try this on for size:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/The_DeLisle_carbine.htm

Happy now?

Panzerknacker
02-15-2008, 07:56 AM
Good, but anything german ?

Man of Stoat
02-15-2008, 08:33 AM
Try these patents:

DE241846
DE231957
FR398201
DE215488
DE661663

there are all old for you

George Eller
02-15-2008, 01:27 PM
It's a shame that most of that article is wrong, particularly concerning the DeLisle. The photos they are using are of a civilian "lookalike" (which doesn't even look at that alike) based on a number 4, and with a civilian scope mount . Even the cutaway drawing is incorrect.

Also note that the silencer on the SA 80 is not on straight.

Absolute crap.

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Nothing here is crap, is just another post trying to solve my question, I dont see you posting a picture of the de Lisle of anything else..are you ?

No worry about it George, it must be the excess of Stoat.
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It's alright Panzerknacker :)

I don't take offense at Stoat's post. I have known Man of Stoat to be very knowledgeable on the subject of small arms and very direct in his opinions.

I happened to find the article that I posted in one of my books and thought it might be helpful to your inquiry on this thread. But, I don't claim to be an expert on this subject.

I wondered myself about the difference in the De Lisle magazine in the color pics (altered .303 magazine) and pics of the De Lisle magazine that I've seen elsewhere.

BTW Stoat, was there anything in the article that you found to be correct?

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Man of Stoat
02-15-2008, 02:26 PM
Didn't read the whole thing...

Man of Stoat
02-15-2008, 02:55 PM
Read it all now, and it has a few things right in it. Very few. It even gets the mass of a 45 ACP bullet wrong (should be 230 grains).

Also, the author should learn how to write in the passive voice.

Panzerknacker
02-15-2008, 03:25 PM
Try these patents:

DE241846
DE231957
FR398201
DE215488
DE661663

there are all old for you


I am looking for pictures of german silencers, not exactly the thing you posted, but thanks for your effort aniway. :roll:

George Eller
02-15-2008, 04:03 PM
Read it all now, and it has a few things right in it. Very few. It even gets the mass of a 45 ACP bullet wrong (should be 230 grains).

Also, the author should learn how to write in the passive voice.
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Thanks for the heads up Stoat.

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Man of Stoat
02-16-2008, 03:00 AM
PK, each of those patents contains drawings. Look them up. Try www.espacenet.org (it might be.net or.com. Try it)

1000ydstare
02-16-2008, 09:50 AM
PK, I do wish you'd cool your Latina spirit before going off on one at times.

Combat and Survival is one of the biggest load of garbage magazines going. It is often sensationalist, and (as MoS points out) it's writers tend to write in an excitable way. You can almost imagine them drooling as they write about things they could only do in their dreams.

Trust me I've read several. And practically wet myself, this one time they were advising on how to cam up your rifle, and paint it and add bipods. Yeah, I thought. The Armourer is going love that when you hand it back in!!!!

And the info on military divers, and you shouldn't use this or that knife. Because everyone that reads this mag has a submarine handy!!!!! :p

Anyway, I am hunting down the De Lisle info, but the de lisle was not produced with a velvet lined case collector, to my knowledge so far. My reasons for this would be....

it is bolt action, if you don't want the cartridge to come out, then just don't work the bolt.

If you need to fire a second shot, then they know you here, if they know you are here, they WILL find where you were.

I am wondering at the moment on the complexities of dragging a spent case over the live mags, for disposal in the rear area. Not to mention stoppages. Not to mention the much easier expedients of attaching other methods of catching cases.

The picture in the book also shows a collapsable stock. Only ONE was ever made like that, but the book claims several were made like that, and that Sterling (as in the SMG) made some. They didn't, although I would believe that the SAS or others modded the de lisles to take the SMG folding stock. Others did have detachable wooden stocks.

Panzerknacker
02-17-2008, 06:51 PM
PK, I do wish you'd cool your Latina spirit before going off on one at times

Latina ? I am not a female, you better dont try spanish, it make look stupid. :rolleyes:

I think the subject on the british weapons is pretty much covered, the thing wich remain a little misterious is the german silncers.

bas
02-17-2008, 08:41 PM
I think the subject on the british weapons is pretty much covered, the thing wich remain a little misterious is the german silncers.

Thats because they made bugger all of them. In the book "Sturmgewehr from firepower to striking power" there is mention of a silencer project in late 1944. As far as the book went it was never completed.

Otherwise I have seen a reference to a silencer made by the Germans that was a copy of the Russian one for the Mosin Nagant.

I guess the biggest problem is that they are such a specialist item and so many German records were lost/destroyed it is hard to get good info like you can for the material on the English / US side.

Panzerknacker
02-17-2008, 09:03 PM
Yea I read some like that, The rusian supressor S-41 wich was captured in some quantity during barbarossa.

But I have no idea wich was the german variant.

genkideskan
02-17-2008, 11:11 PM
Well we simply copy the russian silencer and ad the barrel coupling used for the rifle grenade launcher. The russian system used solid rubber cylinders.
These wear off quickly and must be changed after some shots.
I will write some more about this device later.

Here is a special high tech rifle developed for the GESTAPO. A bullpup, bolt system, take down silenced rifle. With scope and hunting trigger a real stalker. It couldt be dismantled by a simple pushbutton and a interrupted thread. The rifle was only 80cm long, dismantled 45cm. The normal Pistole 08 magazine was used and normal 9mm ammo. The gun was tested after the war by US and russian technicians and was found extremely accurate and silent.

genkideskan
02-17-2008, 11:24 PM
Here is a drawing of the russian design

Panzerknacker
02-18-2008, 06:58 AM
Here is a special high tech rifle developed for the GESTAPO. A bullpup, bolt system, take down silenced rifle. With scope and hunting trigger a real stalker. It couldt be dismantled by a simple pushbutton and a interrupted thread. The rifle was only 80cm long, dismantled 45cm. The normal Pistole 08 magazine was used and normal 9mm ammo. The gun was tested after the war by US and russian technicians and was found extremely accurate and silent.

Beautiful, wich was the maker of that carbine ?

genkideskan
02-18-2008, 09:43 AM
The Gun has no markings or serial numbers, obviously :-).

Panzerknacker
02-18-2008, 09:50 AM
Oh, I see, I dont why but it looks like a Sauer & Son gun. :)

genkideskan
02-19-2008, 04:39 AM
Here is a bunch of german silencers. The first is an K 43 silencer - has somewhat different barrel/sight dimensions than the K98k. Interesting to note that the K 43 has its own rifle grenade device out of the same reasons.
The second is a drawing of the german K98k silencer by MOD- see the range table for proper sight setting.followed by some dig out examples. The rubber cylinders couldt be exchanged easy.

genkideskan
02-19-2008, 04:53 AM
Here are some more dig out silencers of a somewhat different system. The elemnts are not that good for mass production. To that some silencers from Aberdeen proofing ground. the russian system is so quite simple.
We took some rubber gaskets from a water tap and glued them together with rubber glue from a bicycle repair set until we get an rubber cylinder of tight fit. To that we load some cartridges subsonic with a heavy bullet and it works well.Only a funny "PÖLK" noise :-).

Kampfgruppe Cottrell
02-19-2008, 06:29 AM
Is the K43 and the Gew 43 the same weapon in regards to the pick of the silences gen had posted?

Brian

genkideskan
02-19-2008, 09:03 AM
YES :o

Kampfgruppe Cottrell
02-19-2008, 10:39 AM
Thanks.

Brian

Panzerknacker
02-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Here are some more dig out silencers of a somewhat different system. The elemnts are not that good for mass production. To that some silencers from Aberdeen proofing ground. the russian system is so quite simple.

Massive, very nice cutaways drawings, Thanks Lothar , that was the thing I looking for.

Panzerknacker
02-20-2008, 06:30 AM
Here I find another design, according to the source is the ST D7 supresor.

It use a "whirlwind" chamber and no baffles.

SD T7

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/silenziatori_tedeschi_ww2/grandi/6.jpg




The second is a drawing of the german K98k silencer by MOD- see the range table for proper sight setting.


If that figures are correct, the soldier need to get up the muzzle of the Kar 98 in order to shoot 50 meters....because it say equivalent to 800 meters and for that you need to raise the rear sight.

genkideskan
02-20-2008, 04:32 PM
Iam not sure if the ranges are correct - so it will be a mortar shot more or less :-).

Panzerknacker
02-20-2008, 04:42 PM
Jawhol, the angle of shooting seems extremely high.

Something like this: :D

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7951/dibujoxe6.jpg

genkideskan
02-21-2008, 04:55 PM
There are a lot more silencers- codenamed "Haube" (lit. cover). I will make a list soon. So there are silencers for 9mm, 9mm short, 7,65 Br.. For MP, 08, P38, P 27, PP, PPk, Beretta 37 ect.. The german device list even hold a MG 42 silencer and a german made silencer for russian captured rifles!!??
I have had a 08 barrel in my collection with a front sight that couldt be unsrewed, secured by a little spring loaded pin.
So the complete front sight couldt be unscrewed and on the threaded muzzle a silencer oulct be used.


Pistole 08 with silencer - its a navy model with navy sight.

Panzerknacker
02-22-2008, 06:39 AM
Nice, bring all the info dear Lothar, :)

I find this about the Haube or "HUBs".



Es gab folgende Typen
HUB-21 für russische Gewehre
HUB-22 für das engliche Enfield-Gewehr
HUB-23 für den 98k
HUB-31 bis 40 für Pistolen
HUB-41 bis 50 für Maschinenpistolen
verschossen wurde die *Nahpatrone*(verringerte Ladung).



http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.php?threadid=63&sid=7797cd409245a845ac1698dc53786818

I would dare to say that the "HUB-21" is the one illustrated by you in the first picture, in lower page 4 of this topic.

German HUB-?

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2105/hubvt9.jpg

Glushitel S-41.

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/silenziatori_tedeschi_ww2/grandi/8.jpg

genkideskan
02-28-2008, 10:51 AM
So lets try to make a list for a better look. The code name was "Haube" and the developement code HUB-L

upgraded 03.03.08

HUB-L21 bis L30 für Gewehre
HUB-L21 für russische Gewehre
HUB-L22 für das engliche Enfield-Gewehr
HUB-L23 für den 98k (russ. System) Gutmann und Hufschmidt
HUB-L23 für den K43 (russ. System)
HUB-L24 unknown
HUB-L25 für den 98K (Arado System)
HUB-L26 für den 98K (Schätzle System)
HUB-L27 für den 98k (russ. System) Weiterentwicklung des L23
HUB-L28 für den K43 (russ. System)

HUB-L31 bis L40 für Pistolen
HUB-L31 P27 7,65mm (Arado System) Schneider - Opel
HUB-L32 PP 7,65mm (Eißfeld System, Gummizylinder) Walther und Appel
HUB-L3- Walther PP
HUB-L3- Walther PPK (.22)
HUB-L3- Pistole 08 (drilled barrel System)
HUB-L3- Pistole 08 (ERMA System)
HUB-L3- Pistole 08 (Parker Hale System)
HUB-L3- Pistole Walther P38

HUB-L41 bis L50 für Maschinenpistolen
HUB-L41 MP 40 ( Arado Brandenburg)
HUB-L42 MP 40 ( Schneider-Opel Berlin)
HUB-L43 MP 40
HUB-L41 MP 40 (n. A. neue Ausführung)
HUB-L4- STEN Kopien MP 3008

HUB-L51 bis ... für Maschinengewehre
HUB-L53 MG 42 (Gustloff System) Fuhrhop

genkideskan
02-28-2008, 11:59 AM
Here are some more pistol silencers. The Pistole 08 with an ERMA made silencer. Using several chamber segments and a length of 300mm.
The P27 with the L 31 silencer. The barrel has an nut. Locking balls that couldt be released by pushing back the silencers bushing, safed the silencer on the barrel rigid and in line. Very alike to modern compressed air tool connectors. Walther made silencers for the P38 and PP.

Panzerknacker
02-28-2008, 04:20 PM
Remarcable pictures, danke again, the better looking is this one for the czech pistol is impressive. Beside the 7,65 mm was a subsonic ammo so...:)

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/7154/p2027pq8.jpg

genkideskan
02-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Even the 7,65mm is subsonic there is a special 7,65mm Nahpatrone with reduced powder charge. The cartridge has a green case and an x as headstamp.:)

Panzerknacker
02-28-2008, 06:24 PM
Nahpatrone for the 7,65 mm...who needs that? the muzzle velocity in a 7-8 cm lauf pistole must be some between 275-290 m/s, subsonic enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_ACP

genkideskan
02-29-2008, 09:17 AM
Well it might be a problem of accuracy. from surviving boxes we know that
the ammo was special loaded. There are Nahpatrone for P 27 with L31 and
Nahpatrone for Walther PP with silencer ect..
I have documents about trial shootings in Kummersdorf (army proofing ground)
There they measure the subsonic speed AND accuracy. On 25m 8 shots shouldt create a pattern not more than 10 x 10 cm.

Panzerknacker
02-29-2008, 03:35 PM
Seems a good accuracy, specially for a supressed weapon.
Talking about reduced charge 7,65mm check this one, the 7,65 mm pressin (7,65x15mm) specially designed for the Pressin "camouflaged pistol".

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6633/gafzc3.jpg


http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20espagnole/llama/a%20llama%20pressin%20gb.htm

genkideskan
03-01-2008, 01:40 AM
Very interesting gun and totally unknown to me. Interesting ammo.
Here is a selection of german Nahpatronen. 7,65, 9mm and 7,92.

courtesy J.Moss

Panzerknacker
03-02-2008, 10:50 AM
I wonder if those reduced charge cartrigdes would cycle the slide in a 7,65 mm pistol, maybe was "hand operated" Thanks again for the pics.

genkideskan
03-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Panzerknacker,

any idea why the Pressin gun was delivered with a box of primed unloaded cartidge cases (VAINAS). The primers are red laquered.
Loaded life ammo was produced, too.

Panzerknacker
03-03-2008, 04:24 PM
Those are platzpatrone, blanks, it should said "Fogueo" instead "vainas".

genkideskan
03-03-2008, 09:36 PM
Thanks for the reply. Blanks make sence - for training purpose?

Panzerknacker
03-04-2008, 08:18 AM
For that or for scaring the terrorist to death with the noise...:rolleyes:

No, for training only :D

genkideskan
03-05-2008, 10:51 AM
hahahah yes scaring them to death ... how very nice :mrgreen:

Do you have some more ballistic and performance informations about the

ammunition?

Panzerknacker
03-05-2008, 04:28 PM
The performace was poor, that was one of the causes of the lack of interest in this gun. Muzzle velocity 265 m/s, bullet weight 70 grains ( 1 grain = 0,0648 grams)

Panzerknacker
04-14-2008, 06:36 PM
This is amazing, note those single shot shotguns with supressors !! The picture is taken in an argentine owned gunshop in France.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/435/imagen21vr4oe6.jpg

I think those are Zoli brand, not sure, picture extracted from:

http://www.cazaconaire.com.ar/foro/viewtopic.php?t=947&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Panzerknacker
05-30-2008, 05:00 PM
More info about german silencers as well other types here:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA1.html

pdf27
05-30-2008, 05:53 PM
The attached photo is from a current British MoD publication - looks like suppressors/silencers may be going to make a comeback of sorts?

Panzerknacker
05-30-2008, 06:02 PM
As you probably know the SA80 is not the first assault rifle in 5,56mm to be equipped with a supressor.

http://i27.tinypic.com/rirvvm.jpg

Comeback ? maybe but it was never completely gone

pdf27
05-30-2008, 06:15 PM
Indeedy, the interesting bit is that is a photo of a planned modification to the rifle released by the British Ministry of Defence. In other words, they are planning to introduce a suppressor to some form of general service. So far as I'm aware, nobody else has done something similar. There are plenty of specialist silenced SMGs around for special forces, but since 5.56mm is a supersonic round that is clearly not the intent of this version.

Panzerknacker
05-30-2008, 09:46 PM
Well is a compromise evidently, to modify the 5,56x 45mm round to make subsonic gave away a lot of performance. Not to mention that the gas operated system stop working and you got a single shot "hand operated assault rifle" :D

However the supersonic "supressed" rifles still have some advantages.

The new can eliminated enough of the muzzle blast so that the location of
the shooter was undetectable to hostiles downrange, which greatly improved a shooter’s tactical advantage
and survivability. Given ideal vegetation and terrain, the muzzle blast from
an M16A1 was completely indistinguishable beyond 50 yards.

Only the sonic boom created by the 5.56mm projectile remained, which sounds something like the report of a short barreled .22 rifle. In the absence of a muzzle blast, the mammalian brain interprets
the origin of the gunshot as perpendicular to the pressure wave of
the ballistic crack striking the body. Combined with the sound of bullet impact, this phenomenon causes individuals to turn their attention 90 to 180 degrees away from the shooter. This is a very good thing during an ambush or when a small force equipped with silencersmust cope with a larger force.

Quote from "The Small Arms Review - Vol. 5 No. 8 May, 2002"

pdf27
05-31-2008, 05:07 AM
I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be something to do with health and safety - reducing the sound levels at the shooter. It also makes comms within the section work a lot better too...

Nickdfresh
05-31-2008, 06:44 AM
As you probably know the SA80 is not the first assault rifle in 5,56mm to be equipped with a supressor.

http://i27.tinypic.com/rirvvm.jpg

Comeback ? maybe but it was never completely gone


Of course not! Hasn't anyone seen "The Jerk?" :D

But I would think a silencer would deprive a small caliber weapon round its only real positive attribute. The high velocity...

pdf27
05-31-2008, 07:11 AM
These are suppressors, not silencers. In other words, they reduce the noise generated by the muzzle gases while having a minimal effect on the muzzle velocity. Silencers require a subsonic round, suppressors don't.

Panzerknacker
06-01-2008, 08:26 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be something to do with health and safety - reducing the sound levels at the shooter.


That was the original purpose behind the supressor, unfortunately this device has been historically linked to assasins,robbers and so, wrong image because very few criminals used it, and it is more often in the hand of Goverment agencies like army, special forces and police units. :rolleyes:


Video:

The Pistole Polizei Kurz (Walther PPK) with silencer.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=OxfvwhCXY9Y

Panzerknacker
06-04-2008, 05:30 PM
Supressed MG-34 with finnish made silencers.:cool:

http://www.guns.connect.fi/rs/mg34twin.jpg


MG-34 "twins" shot with different sounds in students' shooting event in Lappeenranta - one with the usual loud tearing noise, the other with curious puffing sound reminding of a diesel engine throttled. These guns were among the most favoured weapons among the shooting participants and audience of the event. Reflex Suppressor R8MG replaces the original flash hider in seconds

http://www.guns.connect.fi/rs/MG.html

imi
06-25-2008, 10:55 AM
The best supressed small arm for me
http://jandbgunsales.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/amphibian1.284125836_std.jpg
Ruger 22

Major Walter Schmidt
06-26-2008, 12:50 AM
not realy small arms but....
http://www.panzerbaer.de/images/bw_pzh_155mm_m109_schalldaempfer_wtd_meppen-001.JPG
:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgr een:

imi
06-26-2008, 06:53 AM
Major Walter Schmidt: :D :D
I think is very similar to something... :D

Panzerknacker
06-26-2008, 04:29 PM
Hallo, I need to remember that the "thing" above have already its own topic so...

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6073

Uyraell
02-08-2009, 03:48 AM
Since the subsonic rounds are (perhaps in error, tho I think more knowledgeable heads will know the answer to this) widely supposed/attributed to have been manufactured for the Vampyr application among others, I would have little doubt they'd be lethal within the given range, notwithstanding that said range is less than that of a standard round.

Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-20-2009, 02:58 PM
The aplication of the german short range ammunition in the battlefield was really limited, most of the scharfschützen prefered to use the normal SS and to shoot from long distance instead to use the nahpatrone at 100 or 150 meters away of its target.
I guess It was mostly used for internal security affairs and antipartisan duties.

The nahpatrone for the 7,92x33 would be problematic , probably it didnt work the action properly making the gun in manually operated instead semi or full auto.

Panzerknacker
04-22-2009, 05:51 PM
Very clear video showing the distict sound of a silenced MP5SD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM6Hw-vgtAQ