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Flammpanzer
12-27-2007, 11:58 AM
dearest gentlemen and ladies!

hope you all enjoyed a relaxing christmas with your families.

some days ago, I saw a movie on TV where a ranking of the best tanks was made. during watching I just thought about this:

which armor/vehicles and firearms of the german army were used AFTER WW2? okay, a lot of material was destroyed, and if not by the allies, then the crews, soldier etc. did that to their military-stuff. USE: I mean not as a collector`s item, I mean in combat use or at least in real duty.

I know that the panther was used by the french some time after kriegsende and the new bundeswehr (1955) used a lot of weapons like the walther P-38, MG-42 and others.

the syrian army used old PzKpf. 4 against the israelis. on the other hand, the israel air force had a variant of the ME Bf 109, built by the czechs - the AVIA S199 (?).

the czech and the swiss had a modernized variant of the panzer 38(t) hetzer.

old BMW-motorcycles can be found even today in russia and in greece, but only for civil use.

so, which from the above mentioned "systems" were used and in what kind? what do know about those tanks etc. are there pictures? google will not put out so much stuff imho, so I relay on the experts here. ;-)

if there was/is such a thread please delete and I will apologize asap.

jens

jacobtowne
12-27-2007, 12:11 PM
I don't know anything about systems, but I think that the Israeli Army used K98k rifles after the war.

JT

Flammpanzer
12-27-2007, 12:13 PM
yes, right, the KAR98 was used widely, I think the yugoslawian army had also some and rechambered them to more common calibers.

jens

jacobtowne
12-27-2007, 12:36 PM
Israel bought German rifles from the Czechs, and later, in the 1950s, rechambered them (the rifles, not the Czechs:D) to the Nato cartridge, 7.62x51 (.308 Winchester).

The M1948 98k rifle was manufactured in Yugoslavia after the war on German machinery. It was always chambered for 7.92x57 (8mm Mauser).

JT

windrider
12-27-2007, 01:42 PM
I remember watching a documentary in high school.
There was an armoury in england keeping and selling german weapons to every african county that could not afford new weapons. These included MG-42s, MP-40s, rifles, ammo, even helmets. Lots of these ended up in south america too.

Dani
12-28-2007, 12:53 AM
I know that the panther was used by the french some time after kriegsende

Other post-war users included Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. For instance see this: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/bulpanth.htm

windrider
12-28-2007, 09:45 AM
Hi Dani,
it's amazing, the article in the link mention that they were buried as bilboxes at the frontier when no longer needed. And I read yesterday that a panzer IV was stolen from there, with the help of bulgarian officer.
see the link:
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/life_and_style/7099/

Dani
12-28-2007, 11:01 AM
And I read yesterday that a panzer IV was stolen from there, with the help of bulgarian officer.
see the link:
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/life_and_style/7099/

Amazing indeed! I wonder if the Bulgarians might want to unearth those relics "pillboxes" since both Turkey and Bulgaria are now part of NATO.;)

Splinter54
12-28-2007, 02:21 PM
*The French used some Panthers until the mid 50tys.
*The Polish used those too (there are some nice Photos of those vehicles)
*The Swedish Army buyed 2 (?) Porsche Königstiger from the French after WW2
*Denmark used some modified Pz III with improvised minerollers to clear the beaches etc of mines
*The swiss used some Hetzers which they modernized e.g. with Muzzlebrakes which they used until the 70tys

And by the way i hear the Luftwaffe sent some planes to Iraq in 1941 to support the Resistance against the British - those planes had the Markings of the Iraq - i wonder if the yhad been in use after the insurgent actions had been stopped.

Tony Williams
12-30-2007, 04:02 AM
Spain used the Me 109 for many years after the war. The Swiss may have done also, I'm not sure when they got rid of theirs.

The StG 44 was used by some eastern European and South American countries for a long time (ammo for it was made in S America) and it stayed in the Yugoslav inventory until the 1980s, I think. You will still see them from time to time in photos of insurgent groups in the Middle East and in Africa.

overlord644
12-30-2007, 04:38 PM
i know some k98's (along with some enfields) went to the afghans to fight the soviets in the '80s

jacobtowne
12-30-2007, 05:02 PM
Those K98 rifles made many journeys over the years, some more than half way around the globe. In Ball's Mauser Military Rifles of the World, he tells of Lithuanian contract vz24 short rifles (Czech made K98s) that were captured by the Germans, and then by the Russians, who later supplied them to the Viet Cong, from whom they were captured by Americans and brought to the U.S. as war trophies.

That's called "I Get Around."

JT

Nickdfresh
01-01-2008, 03:32 PM
I think that, like the French, the Red Army had some units equipped with the Panther after the war...

I could be wrong though.

Martin-
01-06-2008, 06:24 AM
Spain used the Me 109 for many years after the war. The Swiss may have done also, I'm not sure when they got rid of theirs.

The StG 44 was used by some eastern European and South American countries for a long time (ammo for it was made in S America) and it stayed in the Yugoslav inventory until the 1980s, I think. You will still see them from time to time in photos of insurgent groups in the Middle East and in Africa.

Bf-s were used in number of countries after the world war2. It was still beeing produced by Hispano Suiza in Spain and in Czech republic after the war. In fact one of first fighters of Israel were czech version of Bf-109-s. Also were still used in some numbers after the war in Yugoslavia,Turkey,Switzerland,...

Stugs were widely used almost everywhere. I have seen some photos of Bulgarian stugs in mid-60-s on sort of an exercise. Also my father was in Yugoslav army in 1977 and he got MP-40. Alot of ww2 era weapons were still used. In Yugoslav wars for example there were examples of MP-40-s from ww2 era used,even seen helmets. Also some ww2 era guns were used (88mm AA guns in croatia near Sibenik are still in use as coastal guns) also some ex-soviet artillery was widely used. Few german ww2 artillery guns were used too. Alot of surpluss weapons after ww2 were massively sold to arab countries and so one. And were used alot in conflicts there (there are loads of these captured by Israel after first wars with arab neighbours)

Man of Stoat
01-06-2008, 08:11 AM
The MG 42 is still in use in many armies re-chambered for 7.62 x 51 mm as the MG 3. this includes Germany and Denmark. The Yugoslavs also used it in the original chambering, and probably still do.

Martin-
01-06-2008, 12:12 PM
The MG 42 is still in use in many armies re-chambered for 7.62 x 51 mm as the MG 3. this includes Germany and Denmark. The Yugoslavs also used it in the original chambering, and probably still do.

Thats correct. Although manny machineguns look exactly like tha originall were producet by number of countries after the war. Even in germany. In Yugoslavia, i think czech republic too...then by beretta in Italy,...

IRISH TIGER
01-09-2008, 08:51 PM
I belive that in Russia there is still some panzers to b found in the like of rivers,bogs and marsh lands which the germans left there as they had no time to recover them. Love to follow that up when i win the lotto Have you seen the German captured t34 being pulled out of a lake by a dozer real cool video on u tube.

overlord644
01-09-2008, 10:54 PM
anybody know if theres any MP44's in use?

Tony Williams
01-10-2008, 02:27 AM
anybody know if theres any MP44's in use?

Yes, photographs occasionally appear which show them in the hands of irregular forces in Africa and the Middle East.

Martin-
01-10-2008, 02:29 PM
anybody know if theres any MP44's in use?

I ran into a pic of weapons captured from Iraqi insurgents found mp44 there will try to find it and post.

Also in war in Jugoslavia saw K98 sniper rifle beeing used. There were soviet ppsh submaschineguns too,thompsons,grease-gun,...etc

Martin-
01-10-2008, 02:30 PM
I belive that in Russia there is still some panzers to b found in the like of rivers,bogs and marsh lands which the germans left there as they had no time to recover them. Love to follow that up when i win the lotto Have you seen the German captured t34 being pulled out of a lake by a dozer real cool video on u tube.

Watched on youtube how they escavated T-34 with wermacht cross on it from some lake. Also one film showing discovering of FW-190 too.

Librarian
01-17-2008, 10:14 AM
The StG 44 was used by some eastern European and South American countries for a long time (ammo for it was made in S America) and it stayed in the Yugoslav inventory until the 1980s, I think.

As always, you are absolutely correct, my dear Mr. Williams – not only that those legendary assault guns Maschinenpistole 43/ Sturmgewehr 44 were kept within regular inventory of the paratrooper units of the Yugoslav People’s Army (JNA), but in 1982 they actually were transferred to certain units of so called Territorial Defence (I think that the US equivalent for those units is National Guard).

Unfortunately, official army snapshots connected with this weapon are not so abundant, but luckily I was able to find one that was taken back in 1966 and published in the official army paper "Front":

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Stg43inYugoslavservice-1966.jpg

Maschinenpistole 43/ Sturmgewehr 44 within the regular units of the Yugoslav People’s Army, 1966

Unmodified (7.92X33) ammunition for these assault rifles was also produced in limited amounts within the "Prvi Partizan", state-governed ammunition factory in Uzice.


Bf-s were used in number of countries after the world war2. It was still beeing produced by Hispano Suiza in Spain and in Czech republic after the war. In fact one of first fighters of Israel were czech version of Bf-109-s. Also were still used in some numbers after the war in Yugoslavia,Turkey,Switzerland,...

Absolutely correct, my dear Mr. Martin – furthermore, some… well, large and sophisticated weapon systems of the German origin, if I may say so, were also used by Yugoslav People’s Army. For example, do you recognize this type of aircraft? Believe it or not, it was in active use within JRV (Yugoslav Air Force) in late forties! :)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju87B-2-JRV.jpg

Mysterious product of the Junkers Flugzeugwerke contained by YAF, 1946

Flammpanzer
01-20-2008, 11:45 AM
well, even the german bundeswehr thought over to use the old StgW 44 in the mid 50`s, I have just received a book about the bundeswehr armament.

jens

diverdoc
01-21-2008, 08:54 PM
well, even the german bundeswehr thought over to use the old StgW 44 in the mid 50`s, I have just received a book about the bundeswehr armament.

jens

what book is that?

on the tanks in marshes, there is a show on in the states were they restore tanks. one episode shows a panther pulled out of a bog in poland and the work to restore it to new condition.

Librarian
01-22-2008, 11:04 AM
I am absolutely not surprised with aforesaid official contemplations, my dear Mr. Flammpanzer – Yugoslav People’s Army paratroopers were indeed wery impressed with the MP 44 assault rifle too. The sight profile was always highly visible, target acquisition was extraordinary, the weapon’s mechanism functioned smoothly, recoil was completely controllable, and the production quality of the weapon was noteworthy - after a number of years in active service, there were absolutely no signs of material deterioration, especially no signs of outer corrosion, cracks or fractures on barrel. :)

But as you know, my dear Mr. Flammpanzer, I do have a certain preference toward bigger mechanical "items". Therefore here you have another example of the Junkers aircraft works airplane family that was intensively used by the Yugoslav Air Force (Jugoslovensko Ratno Vazduhoplovstvo) – a still living legend of the skies, good old Tante Ju (Auntie Ju)!

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju52-YAF1.jpg

Junkers Ju 52/3m, YAF – 1954

Two Junkers Ju 52/3m transporters were actually captured by the Yugoslav Partisans – one of them in October of 1944, and the next one in April of 1945. Additionally, six AAC.1 Toucans (French-built variant of the Junkers Ju 52/3m) were attained from France in 1947, giving a total of eight aircrafts used by 677 Transport Aviation Squadron for the transport role.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju52-Yaf2.jpg

Junkers Ju 52/3m, YAF - 1954

They were withdrawn from active service in 1964 and transferred to the Aeronautical Union of Yugoslavia (Vazduhoplovni Savez Jugoslavije) - an active member of International Aeronautical Federation (FAI) since 1952, and the legal succesor of the Royal Aeroclub of Yugoslavia, member of the FAI since 1922.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju52-Yu-4.jpg

Tante Ju used by Aeronautical Union of Yugoslavia, 1967

With these photos we wish to pay our sincere respects for all those beautiful years of trustworthy service to the Old Lady! :)

Of course, the following pictures are representing our old "heavy metal" acquaintances, therefore additional explanations will be completely superfluous:


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/PzKpfw2-YU.jpg

PzKpfw II – Yugoslav Army, 1945


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/PzKpfw38t-Yu.jpg

PzKpfw 38 (t) – Yugoslav Army, 1945


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/StuGIII-Yu.jpg

StuG III – Yugoslav Army, 1945

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/StuGIII-Yu-2.jpg

StuG III – Yugoslav Army, 1945

And no, honorable ladies and gentlemen, I am assuring you that these examples are not unaccompanied ones! ;)

In the meantime, as always – all the best!

ww2admin
01-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Fantastic! Like the second last photo. I wonder how many people fell off these things.

Koen
01-23-2008, 10:23 AM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/Polish%20Army/panther-polish-1.jpg

looking for more pictures

Koen
01-23-2008, 10:27 AM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-3.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-4.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-5.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-6.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-7.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-8.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-Kaysersberg-9.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/panzers/PzKpW%20V%20Panther/French%20Army/Panther-kaysersbergonfieldexercise1.jpg

looking for more pictures

Flammpanzer
01-23-2008, 10:58 AM
what book is that?

it is MODERNE HANDWAFFEN DER BUNDESWEHR from rolf abresch and ralph wilhelm, REPORT VERLAG. ISBN: 3-932385-10-1. it can be aquired quite cheap, because the report verlag has some special prices right now, I think it was about 8 euros new. 142 pages and a lot of beautiful color-pictures beside some very informative texts - in german. I can only recommend it to all modern german army buffs. there are also some other highly adorable books out of that series, like DAS HEER IM EINSATZ.

jens

Flammpanzer
01-23-2008, 11:02 AM
wow, great pics! maybe this would have also suited to "my" thread about german weapons in foreign armies.

jens

Nickdfresh
01-23-2008, 02:15 PM
Agreed. They are great pics.

And Koen, please don't take this personally as I really enjoy your contributions to this site and your wealth of great pics. But I just don't think we need a thread for every subset of Panther tank photos...

But I do love the Panther tank, and pictures of it...

Koen
01-24-2008, 03:12 AM
Agreed. They are great pics.

And Koen, please don't take this personally as I really enjoy your contributions to this site and your wealth of great pics. But I just don't think we need a thread for every subset of Panther tank photos...

But I do love the Panther tank, and pictures of it...

ok, the only issue that I have is that I have to search for the right location to put them...

I do believe that (more) subboards would be a great feature.

But for now I'll post some more pics :mrgreen:

snebold
03-31-2008, 04:01 AM
The MG42 is still the standard MG in Denmark (and I think in Germany), only it is produced post war called MG2 or MG3, with the only change being a safely lock not in the original design. It has proved difficult to improve on the MG42.

The Ju 52 was in Swiss AF sevice to 1981

Splinter54
03-31-2008, 08:42 AM
It's called MG3 and they changed not only the 'safty lock' (Verschluss), so the hot gasses wont get into the gunners face, but they also changed the calibre to the NATO standard 7,62x51mm and the cadence. They also changed some visual things, the bi-pod, barrel and stuff (i never dissassembled a real MG42, so i don't know the exact differencys!)

http://i30.tinypic.com/1gm0l2.jpg

Golan Heights
http://i28.tinypic.com/riulns.jpg

Syrian Jgdpz
http://i26.tinypic.com/35alvuh.jpg

Russian Drilling
http://i27.tinypic.com/30dgvte.jpg

Happy russians (because they have a Zündapp) and a CZ Militant
http://i26.tinypic.com/10r5on6.jpg

Even more happy russians (because they have a Steyr LKW), note the SS Plate
http://i31.tinypic.com/2qn8k2d.jpg

Nickdfresh
03-31-2008, 09:00 AM
US soldiers battle back with an 88mm gun:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/foreignweapons/fig1_captured_german_88.jpg

Nickdfresh
03-31-2008, 09:03 AM
A Panther tank pressed into US service presumably during the Battle of the Bulge:

http://www.flumecreek.com/panther_sherman_50percent.png

The Red Army also maintained squadrons of captured Panther tanks just as the Germans used their T-34s:

Also the British Panthers of the Cold Stream Guards (center):

(courtesy of Achtungpanzer.com (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm)

Librarian
04-14-2008, 11:05 AM
Excellent pictures, my dear gentlemen! In the meantime I have successfully acquired some additional rarities connected with our contemporary theme as well.

First of all, here you have another, highly appreciated and truly uncommon example of the Junkers airplane family incorporated into the YAF – the Junkers W 34, captured by Yugoslav partisans on September 23rd, 1944 near Banja Luka. This airplane faithfully served the new owners until 1959.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/JunkersJuW34-Yu.jpg

Junkers W 34 in Yugoslav service, Batajnica - 1952

The feared and respected. 8,8cm FLAK 18/36 was esteemed trophy of YPA too. These examples, revealed during the Victory parade in Belgrade (October 1945), created the very backbone of the Yugoslav Air Defense Forces, being adored so much that actually they enthusiastically served within different national forces even throughout the sorrowful Yugoslav civil war years. What a career!

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/FLAK18-36Yu-1945-2.jpg

8,8 cm Flak 18/36 in Yugoslav service, Belgrade, October 1945

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/FLAK18-36Yu-1945.jpg

8,8 cm Flak 18/36 towed by a Czech built CKD Praga T 9 (Praga TH 6) heavy tracked haulers, Belgrade, october 1945.

Of course, anti-tank units were highly dependant upon well-known German PaK patterns, and PaK 40was in normal YPA AT inventory up to late fifties as well.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/PaK40-Yu1949.jpg

PaK 40, YPA - 1949

It is a well known fact that German companies produced the M 1935 helmetfor foreign export prior to WW II, but it is almost completely unknown that Yugoslav People’s Army used original German – made helmets until 1956 (more than 150 000 peaces were officially issued !) as a standardized component of the personal combat equipment within different army branches (mainly dispersed amongst infantry, sapper and artillery units).

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/M1935-Yu-2.jpg

YPA’s infantry with the original Wehrmacht helmets – vicinity of Koprivnica, 1953.

Please note that almost unbelievable combination – German helmets, standardized Yugoslavian manufactured K98 rifles (known as M 48) and US Sherman M4A3-E4 (76mm) tanks! :shock:

Therefore no, honourable ladies and gentlemen, these soldiers are not the members of the Wehrmacht or the SS, but Yugoslav conscripts photographed in 1953 after the conclusion of a most important post-WW2 YPA manoeuvre called Sloga (Amity) 53. :D

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/M1935-Yu.jpg

YPA conscripts equipped with the M 1935 helmets, 1953

Well, that’s all for today. I think that additional photographic evidence in relation to other examples of the German military equipment within Yugoslav People’s Army will be accessible wery soon. ;)

Till then, as always – all the best!

Major Walter Schmidt
04-14-2008, 10:32 PM
The chinese also got german helmets.
http://www.german-helmets.com/FOREIGN%20USE/argen-1.jpg

Splinter54
04-15-2008, 01:49 AM
Good Morning ;)
http://i27.tinypic.com/ypg8h.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/29cq79j.jpg