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PLT.SGT.BAKER
01-06-2008, 01:02 AM
It's been a long time since I logged back in here.
Anyways, my friend found a Ammunition Box in his basement.
He wants to know what era it's from and such, He's gonna send me some pictures of it maybe tomorrow. So far he says it's empty and some writings on it.
I'll ask him tomorrow what these writings are.

PLT.SGT.BAKER
01-06-2008, 04:41 PM
OK it says.
840 Cartridges,
5.56 mm
Ball M19s
10 round clips
Bandoleers
wcc85a c41012
and has a big number 2 on the side.

RifleMan20
01-06-2008, 04:52 PM
10 round clips sound like rifle clips, 556 is a common rifle round, well its a very common ammunition round, well thats practally all i know

jacobtowne
01-06-2008, 05:00 PM
OK it says.
840 Cartridges,
5.56 mm
Ball M19s
10 round clips
Bandoleers
wcc85a c41012
and has a big number 2 on the side.

5.56 is the standard U.S. cartridge used in the M16 rifle.

M19s: Are you sure it's not M193?

wcc: Western Cartridge Co.

JT

PLT.SGT.BAKER
01-06-2008, 05:59 PM
My friend says the M19's last part is unclear, so it could possibly be M193

pdf27
01-06-2008, 06:24 PM
From memory it's normally 120 rounds to a bandolier, could be 60 though - last time I used one it was night, I was alternating between section commander and section 2IC and the various DS were on my arse.

I agree with Jacob, it almost certainly says M193 on the case. That's the older 5.56mm round used in the M16 and M16A1 rifle - the newer variants fire a heavier round which requires a different number of turns on the rifling.

PLT.SGT.BAKER
01-06-2008, 08:15 PM
My guess is that he has a Vietnam War era ammunition box then?

pdf27
01-07-2008, 03:01 AM
Nope, little bit more recent than that - came in in IIRC 1973 so right at the very end of the war.

PLT.SGT.BAKER
01-08-2008, 06:35 PM
My friend sent me the pictures, here they are.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/101stgomez/01-08-08_1714.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/101stgomez/01-08-08_1716.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/101stgomez/01-08-08_1717.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/101stgomez/01-08-08_1721.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/101stgomez/01-08-08_1720.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/101stgomez/01-08-08_1718.jpg

PLT.SGT.BAKER
01-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Oh and he has yet to open it, the box belonged to his grandfather. He is going to try and pick it and see whats inside.

RifleMan20
01-11-2008, 06:47 PM
its an m193 case, the first pic shows the box and then zoom right where 19 is, and it has a faded 3

GermanSoldier
01-11-2008, 06:59 PM
Well I just remembered that I got an ammunition box 2 years ago for christmas, but the ammunition box was to hold the .50 cal bullets that were being fed into the machinegun. When I got it, it was holding paintball stuff in it because at the time i loved paintball:)

RifleMan20
01-11-2008, 07:16 PM
ill buy it

GermanSoldier
01-11-2008, 07:33 PM
How much do you offer for it.

RifleMan20
01-11-2008, 07:35 PM
2 dolla

GermanSoldier
01-11-2008, 07:37 PM
1 dolla. lol. Nope I am not going to sell it for the price ;) I have to check everything on the box and see the value of it. Probably going to have to do more research on how much it is actually worth.

jrw1268
01-11-2008, 10:28 PM
From memory it's normally 120 rounds to a bandolier, could be 60 though - last time I used one it was night, I was alternating between section commander and section 2IC and the various DS were on my arse.

I agree with Jacob, it almost certainly says M193 on the case. That's the older 5.56mm round used in the M16 and M16A1 rifle - the newer variants fire a heavier round which requires a different number of turns on the rifling.

The bandoliers that I have are 140 rounds. Just wondering what is different about the round that it requires different rifling? Just wanting to know if I'm using the wrong ammo in my rifle.

pdf27
01-12-2008, 12:50 AM
Bullet weight is different, IIRC the newer round is heavier so had a lower muzzle velocity and needs a tighter rifling to give a similar rate of spin for stability.
Are your bandoliers a set of pockets containing 10 round clips of 5.56mm? If so 140 is a really wierd number - not a whole number of magazines!

jrw1268
01-12-2008, 02:27 PM
The bandoliers in my collection contain seven pockets, each holding two 10-round stripper clips. 6 bandoliers to an ammo can, 840 rds. Also, I don't think it is required to change the rifling when you change the weight of a bullet. I shoot 52 gr. 55 gr. and 62 gr. bullets in the same rifle. Also shoot .270 100 gr. 130 gr. and 150 gr. in the same rifle.

pdf27
01-12-2008, 03:59 PM
Wierd. I'm 90% certain I've only ever seen them with 30 rounds to a pocket (for obvious reasons - you should be counting your rounds when you fire so you know when a magazine change is coming up - you hardly want to introduce different sized magazines to the mix for private soldiers to try and keep track of in their heads in the middle of a firefight). To be fair it's pretty rare for me to be issued ammunition in a bandolier though (my lot are a CSS unit) and the last time I used them it was night.

As for the twist, I'm a little vague as to exactly why it's important. I think it's because NATO standard ammunition is designed to be inherently unstable to improve the wounding effect, and hence requires a certain rate of spin for stability. Lower muzzle velocities will give less spin in the same rifling, hence the need for steeper rifling with a lower muzzle velocity.
Again, to emphasise, I'm rather out of my depth on all this. The following comment I dug up may help:

Because the steel penetrator increases the length and changes the
weight distribution of the SS109 bullet, it is suitable for use only in
barrels with a twist of one turn in nine inches or faster. Pre-1986 Ruger
Mini-14's with the one in 10 inch twist will handle this round but
stability is marginal and accuracy falls off below zero degrees Fahrenheit.
Military rifles intended to use this ammunition have a seven inch twist to
ensure bullet stability under arctic conditions and to stabilize the even
longer L110 and M856 tracer bullets. Current production Mini-14's and some
Ranch Rifles now have seven inch twists.
Source: http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

Nickdfresh
01-12-2008, 11:54 PM
...
As for the twist, I'm a little vague as to exactly why it's important. I think it's because NATO standard ammunition is designed to be inherently unstable to improve the wounding effect, and hence requires a certain rate of spin for stability. Lower muzzle velocities will give less spin in the same rifling, hence the need for steeper rifling with a lower muzzle velocity.
Again, to emphasise, I'm rather out of my depth on all this. The following comment I dug up may help:

Source: http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

I think you're incorrect here. The latest NATO SS109 5.56mm round is actually more stable than the previous M193 was...

Man of Stoat
01-13-2008, 04:45 AM
Right, to clear up this twist business.

The older, 55 grain M193 ammunition was used in rifles with a 1:12" twist barrel. This barrel will not stabilise the 62 grain SS109 or heavier bullets. This is because these bullets are longer (the weight of the bullet is usually used as a proxy for this), and require a 1:9" or tighter twist. The NATO standard is actually 1:7" to adequately stabilise tracer, which is even longer.

You can, however, fire lighter bullets through the tighter twist barrels.

Therefore, the M16A1 can only fire M193 through its 1:12 barrel, whereas the M16 A2 can fire either M193 or M855 (SS 109).

pdf27
01-13-2008, 05:08 AM
Is stability an aerodynamic or gyroscopic issue?

Rising Sun*
01-13-2008, 07:39 AM
Is stability an aerodynamic or gyroscopic issue?

Wouldn't there be elements of both, depending upon conditions?

If a projectile had its nose sliced off at an angle, I assume it'd be less stable, partly because of the way it attacked the air and partly because of the off-centre weight.

My recollection of artillery on Kokoda in New Guinea in WWII is that they had to correct for humidity at different times of day, which is purely aerodynamic.

pdf27
01-13-2008, 08:30 AM
From memory that's a simple density issue though - higher humidity gives higher air density, which in turn gives higher dynamic pressure on the front of the shell and so higher drag.
Reason I'm asking is that if it's a gyroscopic issue then length is irrelevant and it's purely down to weight, while if length does come into it it has to be aerodynamic - at which point things potentially get really rather interesting.

Nickdfresh
01-13-2008, 11:34 AM
Right, to clear up this twist business.

The older, 55 grain M193 ammunition was used in rifles with a 1:12" twist barrel. This barrel will not stabilise the 62 grain SS109 or heavier bullets. This is because these bullets are longer (the weight of the bullet is usually used as a proxy for this), and require a 1:9" or tighter twist. The NATO standard is actually 1:7" to adequately stabilise tracer, which is even longer.

You can, however, fire lighter bullets through the tighter twist barrels.

Therefore, the M16A1 can only fire M193 through its 1:12 barrel, whereas the M16 A2 can fire either M193 or M855 (SS 109).

Some people found this out the hard way when there was unfortunately still a small number of M-16A1s in the mix during the first Gulf War. The logistical problems are obvious, though the green typed bullets were a big clue to a soldier that payed attention. In fact I had an A1 assigned to me in my Reserve spot up until the late 1990s!

Now if they would convert everything to the M-16A3 standard (the M-16A2 with the cyclic feature in place of the three-round-burst for the US Navy SEALs), we'd be okay...

Nickdfresh
01-13-2008, 11:36 AM
I've also been told that the M193 5.56mm bullet didn't so much as "tumble" as it exploded inside the human body at close ranges.:shock: Any comments on this?

Man of Stoat
01-13-2008, 12:05 PM
It is an interesting combination of aerodynamics and gyroscopic effects -- in a vacuum we wouldn't need to worry about spin stabilisation anyway.

The M193 can split at the cannelure at close range, fragmenting. It doesn't "explode". The SS 109 does this as well, by the way. another thing the M193 did was tumble on contact with light foliage and hit people beam on, which was also nasty.

pdf27
01-13-2008, 02:49 PM
It is an interesting combination of aerodynamics and gyroscopic effects -- in a vacuum we wouldn't need to worry about spin stabilisation anyway.
Well, up to a point. Unless you were going for squeeze-bore stuff however you probably would have to have some spin on it though - two circles will only touch at one point, which isn't great for accuracy as you can't tell where that point will be. Spinning it at least means you have a little more control over that point. IIRC this is a (minor) issue with APFSDS.

Man of Stoat
01-13-2008, 03:31 PM
Okay, hypothetical, since we are not actually firing projectiles in a vacuum, all you need to do is provide a small interference fit. then it will touch around the whole circumference!