AR-15 vs MINI-14

[mike M.]

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[Moreheaddriller]

Probaly the ar 15

[pdf27]

I think it says something that the only military force to take the Mini-14 are the Bermuda Regiment, quite the most comic-opera military force it has ever been my misfortune to meet. And they only bought it because Ruger promised to put the Bermuda crest on the stock!

[Nickdfresh]

The M-16A2 is a far more accurate weapon. The Mini-14/AC556 was just an afterthought. Certainly, the AC556 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as37-e.htm) is a good rifle, that may even be a little more reliable in some ways. It was never adopted by any country other than the fearsome Bermudians because the weapon looks archaic with a mostly wood stock and it lacks some refinement. The weapon is used by the New York City Police response teams though, along with the M-4. And they're quite happy with it I guess...

A version of the Mini14 was also used by the A-Team. :)

But the current incarnations of the M-16 have met with some criticism. The M-16A2 with three round burst clearly at a disadvantage to the AK when in close quarters combat in Iraq. The Pentagon really f***ed that up! They should have done what both the Navy SEALS and the Canadian Forces have done, and improved the M-16 and left in the full cyclic auto function (the SEALS use the M-16A3 and the Canucks have an indigenously produced version called the C-7).

And apparently the M-4 can jam and overheat more often than most other assault carbines which almost led to its replacement in the US special ops forces with a Belgian FAL 5.56mm carbine, which was cancelled for political reasons...

And

[Nickdfresh]

This topic is about the Civilian AR15 and the Civilian Ruger Mini 14 why was it moved to military? Please lets stay on topic and discuss the two weapons mentioned, maybe someone else would like to start a new thread on the military versions of these two.

Would you like a box of Kleenex?

[George Eller]

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Hi Mike,

I have owned both the AR-15 and the Mini-14. Bought both in the early 1980's. My personal preference was the Mini-14 as it was more reliable. I sold the AR-15 in 1986. Unlike later AR-15's it did not have the forward bolt assist.

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[George Eller]

Hi George,
I bought my Mini 14GB from a local gun shop, it was an ex prison rifle, when they upgraded to AR's they sold them to the public for a couple month's before there was a public outcry from the anti gunners. Glad I got it when I did.
My AR is really a Bushmaster with no lug or suppressor, I bought the lower at the great western gun show in the last month of the final ban. I bought the upper directly from bushmaster. Both are registered..the state sent no paperwork telling me either one needed to be, if I didn't know to register my mini..it would be illegal for me to own.
Both are a blast to shoot

Edited to add a couple pics of the two weapons were talking about. Notice in the close up how our officials made the weapon safer by removing the flash suppressor and bayonet lug.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3866/mini14002jr8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3159/mini14004rf8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
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Cute pics Mike ;)

It's a shame that there is so much anti-gun sentiment in California. It's not such a problem here in Florida.

The AR-15 that I had was light and fun to shoot, but did not have the reliability of my Mini-14. As I mentioned previously, my earlier model AR-15 did not have a forward bolt assist. Also, I seem to recall that the Mini-14 had a shorter and slightly louder bark than the AR-15. Below are pics of my Mini-14 and the AR-15 that I sold in 1986.

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Top is my Ruger Mini-14 (customized with folding buttstock, bipod, etc.) with extra 30-round clips. Bottom is my Ithaca Model 37 slide action 12 gauge riot gun. At right is my Smith & Wesson Model 1955 revolver (.45 ACP) with Model 1917 walnut grips and two half-moon clips of .45 ACP rounds.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6086/9mini1419eu.jpg

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Colt AR-15 which I sold about 1986. This earlier model of AR-15 did not come with a forward bolt assist.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8743/2coltar151ur.jpg

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[George Eller]

Great looking pics George. One of these days I've got to get me a riot gun..talk about a home defense weapon. If I had to chose one weapon for home defense..I think I would pick a riot shotgun
The only Mini 14 I have owned and shot is the one in the pic and it was used when bought, I've been thinking about getting another one factory fresh and see if there is much difference.
Have you ever done the shoe string trick? Not that I have...;)
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Thanks Mike,

An interesting feature of the Ithaca Model 37 slide action 12 gauge riot gun is that it has a potentially higher rate of fire than a semi-automatic. If you hold the trigger back without letting go, then the weapon will fire as fast as you can pump the slide. Providing that you can hold on, it sounds almost like a pom-pom gun (Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft gun).

With the Mini-14 some of the cheaper 30-round magazines can cause feeding problems. Mine are better quality and have not caused any problems.

Before I sold the AR-15, I did experiment with some customizing which I would rather not discuss....;)

Not sure about the shoe string trick? Maybe you can send a PM.

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[George Eller]

Go to google and type in bump fire....I think i can be done with most semi autos..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBQrtzSdVDo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47yzH0e2n0

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Cool, I've never tried that before.

Nice clips on bump firing the AR-15, M-1 and Mini-14.

Let's just say that I got the same effect with my old AR-15 with the added advantage of being able to fire from the shoulder ;)

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[Nickdfresh]

No..Im just trying to keep my thread on topic..and you being a good mod Im sure you understand that..RIGHT? dont be mad because the other thread your getting hammered.. :)

So ugly Mike. I didn't know you were so sensitive and had such a "Joan of Arc" martyrdom complex...

Well Joanie, you see, AR-15s and M-14s are weapons related to actual standard issue GI fare (i.e. the M-16/M-16A1/M-16A2/M-16A3/M-16A4 and a basically recalibrated M-14).

BTW, I even posted in your thread thoughtfully; so stop acting like you're being persecuted...

Oh and BTW, how is complaining about procedural stuff keeping your "thread on topic?"

edited..now is that anyway for a mod to act? Kleenex..I use handkerchiefs

Well, at least you cry into recyclable material. I guess Al Gore rubbed off on you.:)

[mike M.]

You are sounding like a bitter man Nickey, you dont do well with people who have a difference of opinion do you?

[Nickdfresh]

You are sounding like a bitter man Nickey, you dont do well with people who have a difference of opinion do you?

No, I don't do well with bitter people with an ax to grind that trump up imaginary issues...

If I really had this problem, I would have deleted the thread or sent it to the mod room.

And Mike, I've been very patient with you, other mods here would have banned you for trolling when arguing them by now...

okay..AR-15 are very close except the M-16's having a selector switch

But we weren't just talking about the "AR-15" as any discussion devolves into the M-16 and of Eugene Stoner's development of it as a counter to the Soviet AK...

BUT comeon its a smaller version but the M-14 and the Ruger mini 14 are two seperate animals hoss, the M-14 shoots 7.62 x 51mm NATO ( .308 cal) and the mini shoots a 5.56 x 45mm (.223 cal) a round much less powerful than the 7.62 and the M-14 is about twice the size of a Mini 14..but im sure you know that already..

Thank you Mr. Obvious! I guess that why I could never get the .308 rounds into my magazines! :rolleyes:

But the action is identical to the M-14s/M-1s and the weapon is smaller, but looks like a resized M-14, hence the "mini" designation...

edited to add: I even put a special Hi note to you Nickey in the pic and you still get all pissey,,what up wit dat?

Actually, you phrased your complaint rather rudely...as it is much ado about nothing...

P.S.: I also placed this thread here because there are several other firearms threads in it.

It might not be a bad thing to create a separate forum for general post-WWII firearms discussion?

[Man of Stoat]

What is worth looking at is what is used in high-level IPSC competitions. It's all tricked-up AR 15s, pretty much. The issue with the mini 14 is severalfold, as I see it: it's a very complex design, it really isn't accurate at all unless you put a heavy barrel on it (leading to the weight penalty), and it muzzle-flips quite significantly.

I'm currently waiting out until I can get me a gas piston AR 15, and then the pimping will begin...

[Nickdfresh]

What is worth looking at is what is used in high-level IPSC competitions. It's all tricked-up AR 15s, pretty much. The issue with the mini 14 is severalfold, as I see it: it's a very complex design, it really isn't accurate at all unless you put a heavy barrel on it (leading to the weight penalty), and it muzzle-flips quite significantly.

I'm currently waiting out until I can get me a gas piston AR 15, and then the pimping will begin...

So you're going to put bling on your AR-15? :)

[pdf27]

I'm currently waiting out until I can get me a gas piston AR 15, and then the pimping will begin...
As in HK-416 style? Tad confused here...

[Nickdfresh]

I can attest to the mini 14 not being as accurate as the AR. Being I bought the rifle used I cant really say to much about it, but I do have a slight accuracy problem with the mini, I think it is the rear sight and I'm working on it. My AR on the other hand, even thought I bought the two half's separately. this weapon was right on target at 100 yards with no tinkering at all.

So can I. The Mini-14 is in fact almost the direct equivalent of the AKM. A very reliable weapon, but not an accurate one....

[Man of Stoat]

As in HK-416 style? Tad confused here...

Yes, although I believe colt also do one, and Oberland offer it as an option on their carbines (or used to at any rate), although I am looking for a 20 inch rifle rather than a 16 inch carbine.

Pimping will involve a free float forend, match trigger, JP compensator, a foresight right out on the muzzle, and maybe some other bells and whistles such as a non-carry handle rear sight.

The mini 14 is basically the world's most expensive plinker. It just doesn't have the accuracy to be a serious rifle, and the heavy barrel version which does have the accuracy is just too heavy to do anything dynamic with.

[George Eller]

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Well, you'll get no argument from me concerning the Colt AR-15's superior accuracy. I just had issues concerning it's reliability.

IIRC, the barrels of the Israeli Galil assault rifle were manufactured by Colt.

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http://users.rcn.com/philistine/galil/Galil_Rifles.jpg
http://users.rcn.com/philistine/galil/Galil_Rifles.html

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/galil/galilsar_b.jpg
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/galil/Galil.html

http://users.rcn.com/philistine/galil/Galil_MAR_UZI.jpg
http://users.rcn.com/philistine/galil/Galil_Rifles.html

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

http://www.israel-weapon.com/?catid={813E02F8-D6E3-48B1-A0D4-171BBDD46E28}

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/galil/Galil.html

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=77

http://remtek.com/arms/imi/galil/galil.htm

http://www.indumil.gov.co/framecategoria.asp?IdCat=28&IdCatmostrar=16&catMarca=28

http://users.rcn.com/philistine/galil/Galil_Rifles.html

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[Man of Stoat]

With regards to the reliability, it comes down to two issues: damaged magazines, crap followers, dirty gas tubes, worn gas rings, and fouling of the gas affected parts of the bolt and carrier.

The solution is:

Throw away any damaged magazines that won't work.
Put either the green followers or the magpul followers in any undamaged magazines that occasionally cause a stoppage.
Clean your rifle thoroughly after every shooting session
clean your gas tube occasionally. If it is really caked, replace it.
Replace worn gas rings

Oh yes, and don't use Wolf ammunition, the zinc plating gives too much friction and the port pressure is a little low.

By the way, I am now the proud owner of a 20 inch HBAR made by Oberland arms

[George Eller]

Nice links George
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Thanks Mike. At the time (early 1980's) I think that the Galil would have been my first choice, but the price of the semi-auto civilian version sold here in the United States was so expensive. IIRC, well over a $1,000 when they became available in the US during the 1980's. In hindsight, had I been more patient, I probably could have saved enough money to eventually buy one. As it was, I settled for the Mini-14 and AR-15 (which I later sold).

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With regards to the reliability, it comes down to two issues: damaged magazines, crap followers, dirty gas tubes, worn gas rings, and fouling of the gas affected parts of the bolt and carrier.

The solution is:

Throw away any damaged magazines that won't work.
Put either the green followers or the magpul followers in any undamaged magazines that occasionally cause a stoppage.
Clean your rifle thoroughly after every shooting session
clean your gas tube occasionally. If it is really caked, replace it.
Replace worn gas rings

Oh yes, and don't use Wolf ammunition, the zinc plating gives too much friction and the port pressure is a little low.

By the way, I am now the proud owner of a 20 inch HBAR made by Oberland arms
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In the case of the AR-15 that I owned in the early 1980's (I think that I bought it in '82 or '83), I suspected that it was the gas tube. I was pretty faithful in stripping and cleaning the rifle after shooting sessions (as I am after using any of my firearms). IIRC, the gas tube was somewhat awkward to clean and not something easily removed. The type of stoppage that I experienced was that the round would enter the chamber fine, but not quite far enough for the bolt lugs to lock with the barrel extension lugs for firing (fires from a "closed" bolt) - although visually the bolt appeared to be closed. This started out as an occasional occurrence, but eventually I was having to manually eject about every other round. The earlier type AR-15 that I had did not have a forward bolt assist. I viewed the tendency of the gas tube to become fouled as a design weakness. So, I sold my AR-15 sometime in 1986. I could have been wrong, but that was my reasoning at the time.

BTW Stoat congratulations on your recent purchase. Have you taken it to the range yet?

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[Man of Stoat]

Yes I have, but not with any decent ammunition.

You can get pipe cleaners to clean the gas tube, by the way. Midway have them.

[32Bravo]

As I recall - and I’m going back a bit - the AR15 jammed quite often even though I cleaned it constantly.

The first time I fired it from the hip, I sprayed the Ulu in a broad arc, simply because of underestimating the power of its kick, on account of its lightness and not having taken a firm enough grip, as came natural with a heavier weapon, such as the SLR

Personally, I was pleased to revert to the SLR in spite of its weight.