Buy Mitsubishi: or, the Auto Talk Thread

[Rising Sun*]

http://www.mitsubishisucks.com/slave-labor/camps/hanawa/

Read POW Stories, down the page.

[Nickdfresh]

LOL Don't buy Mitsubishi cause they're crap!

[Chevan]

But is it much better then Ford crap?;)

[Rising Sun*]

But is it much better then Ford crap?;)

It's worse than Ford crap, and this comes from someone who's been driving Ford crap off and on for the past 35 years, with occasional experiences in Mitsubishis and other Asian attempts to build motor cars as distinct from transport.

Ford crap is good crap, but Mitsubishi crap is just crap crap, but nice rice crap.

Mitsubishi has yet to make anything remotely approaching Ford 302 and 351 c.i. V8's, let alone the Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III, or the Mustang, or the T Bird. Or the Edsel. ;)

Mitsubishi's engineering zenith, or nadir in my view, was probably the 2.4 Litre Astron engine with balance shafts, an engineering necessity to dampen the consequeces of trying to build a smooth four cylinder at the limits of the capacity.

Rice burner Lancers are still crap, if you're over 25, have both testicles fully descended, and think a car is something more than a mobile studio for putting out deafening doof doof music to annoy people three suburbs away, pulsing out hip hop death metal gangsta rap rave noise which makes sense only if you're on drugs, and have a terminal head injury.

Tow my 4.5m boat with one of those things instead of a proper car and you'll end up on your roof in the scenery. You'll also need someone with a proper car to rip the front underbody out of the stupid front wheel drive Lancer trying to pull it up the boat ramp with my boat and trailer behind it. And my boat ain't big.

At least Henry Ford paid his workers well, while his anti-union thugs were quite gentle compared with Mitsubishi.

[Nickdfresh]

But is it much better then Ford crap?;)

Why yes, actually it is. At one time I think they actually have a better overall reliability rating...

In fact, I've heard more than once that many of Chrysler's problems stemmed from using Mitsubishi technology after they collaborated on several models in the 1980s and early 1990s...

[Nickdfresh]

It's worse than Ford crap, and this comes from someone who's been driving Ford crap off and on for the past 35 years, with occasional experiences in Mitsubishis and other Asian attempts to build motor cars as distinct from transport.

Ford crap is good crap, but Mitsubishi crap is just crap crap, but nice rice crap.

Mitsubishi has yet to make anything remotely approaching Ford 302 and 351 c.i. V8's, let alone the Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III, or the Mustang, or the T Bird. Or the Edsel. ;)

Mitsubishi's engineering zenith, or nadir in my view, was probably the 2.4 Litre Astron engine with balance shafts, an engineering necessity to dampen the consequeces of trying to build a smooth four cylinder at the limits of the capacity.

Rice burner Lancers are still crap, if you're over 25, have both testicles fully descended, and think a car is something more than a mobile studio for putting out deafening doof doof music to annoy people three suburbs away, pulsing out hip hop death metal gangsta rap rave noise which makes sense only if you're on drugs, and have a terminal head injury.

Tow my 4.5m boat with one of those things instead of a proper car and you'll end up on your roof in the scenery. You'll also need someone with a proper car to rip the front underbody out of the stupid front wheel drive Lancer trying to pull it up the boat ramp with my boat and trailer behind it. And my boat ain't big.

At least Henry Ford paid his workers well, while his anti-union thugs were quite gentle compared with Mitsubishi.


Exactly. If you're going to buy Japanese, at least buy Japanese that's quality...

And I would think that Chevan and Henry Ford would see eye-to-eye on a lot of things... :)

And yes, the Lancers are junk that's only image stems from their world rally racing branding image which is about the only thing that keeps them afloat. I hardly ever see the economy version of the Lancer here, ever. Not even close to the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, or Mazda 3. Once in a while I see the souped up all-wheel bling bling e-thug driver version, and yes, I suppose they're okay. But even Subaru buries them here for that sort of demographic (i.e. AWD sports cars for suburban white punks that can't decide if they want to mimic Asian racers or under-educated urban black male gangsta wannabes). And I'm not even sure if Mitsu still makes a passenger sedan anymore like the Gallant or whatever their upstart to the Accord/Camry was. I doubt they bother...

But that's about it, rarely do I see any other Mitsubishi on the road, other than possibly their ultra-high end crap SUV, which was buried long ago in Consumer Reports as an accident prone rollover death trap. I have no idea how the newer ones fair in crash tests, but neither do most other people because nobody cares anymore...

[Man of Stoat]

On this side of the pond, the only good car that Mitsubishi makes is the Colt, but that's a "supermini" so is rather smaller than even a small car on the US or Australian market.

Just to put it in perspective, what you Spams call a "compact" we call a "small family car"...

[Nickdfresh]

On this side of the pond, the only good car that Mitsubishi makes is the Colt, but that's a "supermini" so is rather smaller than even a small car on the US or Australian market.

Just to put it in perspective, what you Spams call a "compact" we call a "small family car"...

LOL The Accord sold in the US market is actually wider here to fit our fat asses and wider, roomy roads. I don't think they've sold the Colt here for years, maybe a decade at least. The nonracer Lancer is the smallest they go I think.

The big advantage Honda had in producing them here, initially just to assuage the US fears of declining manufacturing and to avoid import duties in the 80s, but now they're able to release different versions of the same platform. However, with rising gas prices here, more an more people are going with smaller cars and mileage is finally an issue again...

I should also add regarding Ford that at least they were smart enough to go with becoming majority owner of a good Japanese car company, they've owned 30% or Mazda for years now...

[Man of Stoat]

Subaru cars over here have a reputation for being practically indestructible and never breaking down, and Mazda have a good reputation too.

The post-communist Skoda's are also decent cars, sharing chassis with Volkswagen and Seat.

The Pacific rim manufacturers make pap cars, but they are very good value if that's what you're looking for.

The only true American cars of current manufacture that you see on the roads are the odd Chrysler minivan, the Chrysler hearse (whatever its proper name is, that's right, the PT sport cruiser) and very occasionally one of the executive Chrysler models. The slight problem you run into here is that our standard petrol is 95 octane, a touch higher than American standard, so the engines are not optimised for our fuel. Oh yes, sometimes you see an import pickup truck which fills our little roads...

[Rising Sun*]

Once in a while I see the souped up all-wheel bling bling e-thug driver version, and yes, I suppose they're okay.

Reminds me.

I forgot about the major source of their huge power.

Exhaust tips the size of a 44 gallon drum that threaten to take the front wheels off the ground with the extra weight, just to make a stock 4 cyl shopping trolley sound like an old V8 pulling five grand, or a WRX on steroids.

They make me piss myself laughing when I hear this huge noise approaching and can't find the source because I figure it should be at least a fully worked 351 Cleveland or big block Chevy with serious Holleys or Edelbrocks and fully tuned headers through a 2 1/2 - 3 inch exhaust system.

Then it turns out to be some crappy little Lancer which sounds like it should do an 11 sec standing quarter mile but would be struggling to do a 15 sec because of all the little dolls glued to the dash and the fluffy dice on the rear view mirror etc etc, not to mention the Disney seat covers and perforated steel pedals and, for people with lots of money, electronic blow off valves which give audio that makes out like it's got a turbo on it.

Too ricey.

[pdf27]

On this side of the pond, the only good car that Mitsubishi makes is the Colt, but that's a "supermini" so is rather smaller than even a small car on the US or Australian market.
The Evo series are supposed to be quite good, even if they (and the various Subaru Imprezas like them) are most definately not to my taste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Lancer_Evolution

[Rising Sun*]

The Evo series are supposed to be quite good, even if they (and the various Subaru Imprezas like them) are most definately not to my taste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Lancer_Evolution

You're right.

I was thinking of the bog standard Lancers the boy racers kit out to look and sound like an Evo.

The Japanese make some fine automotive equipment at the top end, the Lexus V8 with six bolt mains being probably the best mass produced V8 ever built. Nothing Ford or GM have made comes close.

Down here the boy racers are into Nissan Skylines and that sort of Japanese car with turbo everything, which go alright. Go bloody hard, actually, but I can't stand them, or turbos. If you want more air, put a blower on it. I don't care how efficient turbos are, big chrome blowers look good. They look extra good on dragsters when they blow up, too. You can't get that skywards burst of flame and frame bending thump with a turbo. They just catch fire. Quite boring to watch. :D

In my case, it's a generational thing. I still think the pinnacle of automotive fun was a big and hugely inefficient V8 running on leaded petrol with carburettors. A current base model Hyundai 4 cyl would drag them off, and brake and handle better, but you can't get the same sound and and thigh numbing clutch and bicep building gear lever and heaps of oversteer in them. You'll also survive a crash in the Hyundai that'll kill you in the old V8. One's fun, the other's practical.

[jrw1268]

But is it much better then Ford crap?;)

I drive what you call crap, 302 in my Cougar, 302 in my Explorer, 5.3 in my F-150 and I have a 460 on my airboat. No problems with any of them. I've always owned Fords, they have always been reliable for me. I don't know about Mitsubishi, never owned one and I don't plan on owning one. The company I work for made parts for Mitsubishi, they never payed for the product, so we stopped making parts and would not return their tooling till they paid.
It ended up shutting down some plants and going to District Court and they finally paid.

[Nickdfresh]

Subarus are fine cars. The funny thing is that while they've really come on and have gained market share in the States, especially with the WRX (my friend's brother sells them) have become an almost boutique car and have priced themselves way up into a completely different, older market. And Subarus also have a little black mark on their reliabilitiy here because their early vintage automatic transmissions tended to go tits up before 100K miles. Even some of today's Honda's like the Odyssey have transmission problems as they mend a 255-hp engine to a tranny designed for a car that was under 200-hp. These are problems that I'm guessing are less noticeable in Europe since I'm assuming that most of the cars are still manual transmission (the way it out to be)...

Then of course, you get the "super-tuner" kids that put blowers and all sorts of mods on their engines increasing the horsepower, but don't know enough to say --upgrade the oil to synthetic. Or that they are shortening the lifespan of certain engine blocks by doing so if they aren't very careful. You occasionally get to see a Honda Civic EX with ground FXs launch their motors out of the engine compartments as these morons redline their engines but forget that if they don't change the timing belt by 100K, that the pistons will get sheered off when the belt goes ((((snap)))..

[Nickdfresh]

BTW, crap Ford owns Jaguar, the majority share of Mazda, Land Rover, Volvo, and probably one or two more I've forgotten...

[Rising Sun*]

BTW, crap Ford owns Jaguar, the majority share of Mazda, Land Rover, Volvo, and probably one or two more I've forgotten...

Must be coincidental that after decades of legendary unreliability, Jags and Land Rovers gradually improved their reputations after Ford got involved.

Nothing wrong with Volvo's pre-Ford reputation, as long as you like baby poo yellow-brown slab sided things on wheels and steering them from below the dash wearing a giggle hat and brown cardigan with leather elbow patches. :D

Or, for current people who'd be Volvo drivers but choose to use modern technology to drive urban tanks to preserve their kids at the expense of ours, being 4WD's 'because they're so safe' (except when they hit something about the same size or bigger, or roll), here's their typical driver in his appropriate headgear.

http://www.villagehatshop.com/media/condom-cap.gif

[Man of Stoat]

The Jaguars and land Rovers of a few decades ago were produced in nationalised factories by workshy communists who would rather have been on strike than doing their jobs...

It's no wonder they were less than reliable! :D

[Rising Sun*]

The Jaguars and land Rovers of a few decades ago were produced in nationalised factories by workshy communists who would rather have been on strike than doing their jobs...

It's no wonder they were less than reliable! :D

Made by people like Peter Sellers in the 1959 film "I'm all right, Jack"?

My favourite from the late seventies or early eighties is a (possibly apocryphal) story about a car produced in Britain, when the British motor industry had pretty much destroyed itself. It had consistent problems with everything once its cars left the factory.

A common problem in a particular model was a rattle around the the back seat / rear wheel arch.

Nobody could solve it.

Until someone worked out that a disaffected worker on the production line, whose job was to weld up that cavity, routinely dropped in bolt or nut or three, before welding it up.

[Nickdfresh]

The Jaguars and land Rovers of a few decades ago were produced in nationalised factories by workshy communists who would rather have been on strike than doing their jobs...

It's no wonder they were less than reliable! :D


You've just described the French cars I can't buy!

LOL Actually, the French make some nice looking, stylized stuff that are not available here since AMC went under

[Man of Stoat]

My father made the mistake of buying a French car once, and once only...

I shall learn from his mistake...

Nicely styled, but when (not if) they break, they are expensive to fix, and they will break again...

[Nickdfresh]

Renault didn't last long here for that reason, even though the Alliance was Motortrend's "Car of the Year" in 1984...

[overlord644]

GMC=crap

[Nickdfresh]

GMC=crap

Not true. Certainly not as true as it once was. Both GM and Ford have higher reliability ratings that their Euro counterparts...

Where GM and Ford lose is in "fit and finish," (plain dashboards, lack of options, parts that don't fit well together etc.) because they simply cannot afford to offer what the Japanese and some of the Euros do...

[overlord644]

all i know is that the last GMC someone i know bought turned out to be a lemon, like a tin can with wheels

[Rising Sun*]

Where GM and Ford lose is in "fit and finish," (plain dashboards, lack of options, parts that don't fit well together etc.) because they simply cannot afford to offer what the Japanese and some of the Euros do...

That's ironic.

In WWII the Brits were impressed when US military vehicles started flowing their way. Mass produced parts could be fitted together without filing, hammering etc as everything was made to closer tolerances than Britain could manage with much of its production.

[pdf27]

In WWII the Brits were impressed when US military vehicles started flowing their way. Mass produced parts could be fitted together without filing, hammering etc as everything was made to closer tolerances than Britain could manage with much of its production.
Statistical process control. Deming was the guru of this, and worked in the US during WW2. As a prophet is without honour in his own land, so Deming found himself unwanted in the US after WW2. The Japanese however practically bit his arm off in their enthusiasm for him to work there. The rest of what happened after he moved there to the Japanese car industry is history...

[Rising Sun*]

Statistical process control. Deming was the guru of this, and worked in the US during WW2. As a prophet is without honour in his own land, so Deming found himself unwanted in the US after WW2. The Japanese however practically bit his arm off in their enthusiasm for him to work there. The rest of what happened after he moved there to the Japanese car industry is history...

I associate the following comment with Deming, but maybe someone else made it. I think it came up in the context of a discussion about quality control. The comment was to the effect that setting up manufacturing processes to make sure every item is identical isn't the same as ensuring they're good quality.

[Chevan]

I'm not sure about you guyes but i soon are going to buy a Toyota or probably Nissan.
But i have to say that the Mitshubishi Lancer is also very great for such price:)
Whatever you tells about it.....
In comparition with the best European cars like BMW or Opel the Japs still produce an excellent quality, economical and highly computurized cars for more then real price.
Well the other alternative is the Korean cars like Kia ,Deawoo but i heared this cars dunger for its owned during crashtests.
So what is better Nissan March or Toyota Vitz?
Both super-economical enough cheap cars for the future.
( I mean future when the Oil will cost 150-200$ for barrel:)
Who has an good advise?

[Chevan]

And I would think that Chevan and Henry Ford would see eye-to-eye on a lot of things... :)

:)
Well yes i'm sure the Henry Ford would have to say a lot in eye-to-eye discussion to me:)
But i know just one thing for the sure- he never force me to buy one of his cars:)

[Chevan]

I drive what you call crap, 302 in my Cougar, 302 in my Explorer, 5.3 in my F-150 and I have a 460 on my airboat. No problems with any of them. I've always owned Fords, they have always been reliable for me. I don't know about Mitsubishi, never owned one and I don't plan on owning one. The company I work for made parts for Mitsubishi, they never payed for the product, so we stopped making parts and would not return their tooling till they paid.
It ended up shutting down some plants and going to District Court and they finally paid.

Well hi jrw.
I personally drive Lada 2110 and believe me i also have no problems with it:)
http://www.24auto.ru/images/board/127032s_5.jpg
But i think this is not rather matter of habit to select a car,but a finantial ability.
So i pretty buy the Jap or Koreans than the European or ( God Save!! ) American

[pdf27]

The comment was to the effect that setting up manufacturing processes to make sure every item is identical isn't the same as ensuring they're good quality.
Correct. However, in a mass produced item if you do not have a production system capable of churning out all parts to within tolerance (i.e. parts produced to drawing) then you will NOT have a good quality product. It would be accurate to say that statistical process control is necessary but not sufficient to manufacture a good quality product.

The other side of quality is getting the design right in the first place. That's my job, and is an entirely seperate can of worms.

[Rising Sun*]

I'm not sure about you guyes but i soon are going to buy a Toyota or probably Nissan.
But i have to say that the Mitshubishi Lancer is also very great for such price:)
Whatever you tells about it.....
In comparition with the best European cars like BMW or Opel the Japs still produce an excellent quality, economical and highly computurized cars for more then real price.
Well the other alternative is the Korean cars like Kia ,Deawoo but i heared this cars dunger for its owned during crashtests.
So what is better Nissan March or Toyota Vitz?
Both super-economical enough cheap cars for the future.
( I mean future when the Oil will cost 150-200$ for barrel:)
Who has an good advise?

What's wrong with a used Lada Niva? It'll cost nothing to run, because it won't go anywhere. Even a new one will deliver the same benefits. :D

Seriously, here's some general info, in case this information hasn't got through the Russian censorship net. ;)

Toyota have long had a well-deserved reputation for building solid, reliable, durable cars.

Mitsubishi and Nissan less so. They've made some good ones, but they've made some dogs too. Old joke, from the seventies.

Q. What's the difference between a Datsun (Nissan) 120Y and a Datsun 180B?

A. Sixty more mistakes.

But it always depends upon the model. Good makers have bad models, and vice versa. Then there was British Leyland. :evil:

Honda makes some good stuff, but overrated, over priced and over-complicated in many cases.

Kia and Daewoo have a way to go in catching up to the Japanese makes. Hyundai has improved a lot. It's also owned by the same group as Kia, but they're not necessarily built to the same standard.

Japan's mainstream cars usually fall short of BMW, and most main Euro makes, for handling. But unless you're on the limit, it won't matter. Build quality might even be better than Euro in some Japanese cars, but not in Korean cars. The Korean cars might look as good in the showroom, but wait a few years and you'll often notice they haven't held up as well inside and outside. Less true now than even five years ago.

Then again, BMW's down here have long suffered from deteriorating paint and cracked dashes and parcel shelves within a few years because they can't handle our sun. Better now than even ten years ago. Newer models might be even better. I'll let you know in a few years. :D

Check out the service requirements for whatever you're interested in. You won't be happy if you buy something that's supposed to have a spark plug that lasts 100,000k but needs the engine half dropped to replace a dead plug at 20,000k.

Watch the lubrication requirements. A lot of the current models have very narrow oil galleys which will clog with oil that's the wrong grade. Maybe even with oil of the right grade if it's left in too long and gets too thick. Honda perfected this about 20 years ago with a good but unduly fragile motor that cost about half the car's new price to replace a couple of years into owning it, if you put the wrong oil in. Not under warranty, either.

The problem with motor magazine reviews is that they're written by people with the same mentality as motor car manufacturer engineers. None of them pay any attention to what's involved in owning the car and maintaining it. Still, it's best to read as many reviews as you can, and by people driving the car in the conditions you'll use it in. Saabs might be good in icy Sweden, but they're just expensive crap here.

Also, be bloody careful of future currency exchange rates. It can make replacement parts far too expensive if the rates shift against you in future. A cheap car can end up being more expensive to repair than an expensive one.

If you can, compare the parts lists. It's a real bastard to buy a $15,000 car that has a $900 taillight unit and $1,200 bumper against a $20,000 car with a $300 tailight and $600 bumper. Even if you're insured (I assume insurance exists in Russia :D), it's still factored into the cost of insurance.

[Nickdfresh]

I'm not sure about you guyes but i soon are going to buy a Toyota or probably Nissan.

LOL Nissan? Don't do it! I had one a few years back. Actually it wasn't that bad of a car, but I didn't mind selling the car that much either....In any case, Nissan is another example of the mistaken belief that Japanese equals automatic build quality, especially since they're part owned by Renault ;)....Actually, to tell the truth, Nissan is okay, but I think Toyota is far more consistent...

But i have to say that the Mitshubishi Lancer is also very great for such price:)

I stand corrected on the "super" Lancer, the high end Lance is a great AWD sports performer, but the one in the States loses about a cool 100 horsepower (300 vs. the UK's 400 horsies).

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/655720/mitsubishi_lancer_evo_8_mr_vs__lamborghini_murciel ago/

Other than that, Mitsu offers very little. The Eclipse is a girly sports car (and about the only thing that sells here), I know something about cars and cannot even recall what their counter to the Toyota Camry/Mazda 6/Accord is (the Diamonte?)...And the economy Lancer, is completely owned in the US by the Civic/Mazda 3/Corolla/Ford Focus/Cobalt in the US market...

Whatever you tells about it.....
In comparition with the best European cars like BMW or Opel the Japs still produce an excellent quality, economical and highly computurized cars for more then real price.

Yes, but this is not universal. The "Japs" like many car makers have gotten a tad lazy and are resting on their laurels. For instance, the Corolla hasn't had an upgrade for at least four of five years now and is severally dated. the Civic has just gotten a bit weird, and it looks like the automotive press isn't wild about the new Accord, and Mazda has been lax on upgrading the Mazda 6 (which is like an accord circa 2003), though the new 6 comes out this year.

And Toyota has had their problems too as far as quality. For instance, the Camry's made in the late 1990s were known as "slugers" because the hotspots in the engine would cook the motor oil causing horrendous deposits....And many people think that Hondas are not what they once were. Although, most are actually made in America now...But that in no way explains their problems building an auto transmission that stands up in the Odyssey...


Well the other alternative is the Korean cars like Kia ,Deawoo but i heared this cars dunger for its owned during crashtests.

The Koreans are just now learning to make decent cars. But stay away from Kia and Daewoo, Hyundai has improved markedly though. I was actually looking at one, but have been scared off by some service dept. horror stories of replacing engines and trannys...

So what is better Nissan March or Toyota Vitz?
Both super-economical enough cheap cars for the future.
( I mean future when the Oil will cost 150-200$ for barrel:)
Who has an good advise?

Seriously, I'd go Toyota. Nissan is a decent car company, but they have had problems with quality. My Sentra SpecV was okay, though the brakes were maddeningly undersized and the engine began to burn synthetic oil at the rate of one liter per 5000 km, which is one of the reasons I let it go (I suspected the dealers and demo customers pounded on it before the engine set properly). And my brothers Nissan Titan truck, though he likes it, was a nightmare of replacing the transmission, rear differential, brakes, & powersteering. Thankfully that was all warranty. :D

[Rising Sun*]

However, in a mass produced item if you do not have a production system capable of churning out all parts to within tolerance (i.e. parts produced to drawing) then you will NOT have a good quality product.

Yes, but if the drawing is for a cheap part of Y material with a cycle of 5,000 uses it's still going to be of much lower quality than one of Y x 3 material with a cycle of 50,000 uses.

What we see now is, say, the absurdly cheap power tools coming out of China. They're designed for a life of assumed DIY use on a cycle of about 1,500 uses. The parts suppliers and makers trim every part along the way, so the tools can't even make the short cycle in many cases. Quality, as distinct from production, control is minimal or non-existent in many cases. I judge this on the basis of the crap that is offered in the big box hardware stores, some of which I've bought. You won't find this crap in the stores that sell to tradesmen, where I've also bought stuff, such as my 30 year old De Walt radial arm saw which is still going strong and will serve another few generations of home users.

Compare the hugely cheap crap tools and other things we're getting out of China at the moment with the bounty of England or America at their industrial peaks and there's no comparison with the quality of the tools. I still have 1970's Skil tools from America that are clunky and primitive, but they're still running, and will see my kids out if they want to use them. That's more than I can say for smoother looking crap from China, made only a year or two ago.

The difference is, for example, that my old 1970's Skil drill that I keep at the beach house still works fine and is accurate, while my cheap GMC cordless drill has either a bent shaft or badly cut chuck jaws, because the wander on a bit is woeful. You can see it, but I put a dial gauge on it and it's even worse then.

Most DIYers won't notice it, because they're using crap to build crap, but the fact remains that most cheap tools are crap. Even if the tools are produced to clear specifications and drawings.

[Rising Sun*]

And many people think that Hondas are not what they once were.

What they once were was motorbike motors in cars.

I'm old enough to remember Honda S 600 and S 800's.

Cute, fast, but pulling stupid RPM by the standards of the day, because they were motorbike motors adapted to cars.

[Nickdfresh]

What they once were was motorbike motors in cars.

I'm old enough to remember Honda S 600 and S 800's.

Cute, fast, but pulling stupid RPM by the standards of the day, because they were motorbike motors adapted to cars.


Yeah, that's how the broke into the North American market. Honda developed a reputation for quality, efficiency, and ease of use with their bikes that they then translated over to the car market.

I think, off the top of my head, that they invented Variable Valve Timing which enabled their cars like the Civic to score very well in emissions tests as well to get great fuel economy while still allowing the owner to have a car that had no problem operating on the highway...

[Chevan]

Seriously, I'd go Toyota. Nissan is a decent car company, but they have had problems with quality. My Sentra SpecV was okay, though the brakes were maddeningly undersized and the engine began to burn synthetic oil at the rate of one liter per 5000 km, which is one of the reasons I let it go (I suspected the dealers and demo customers pounded on it before the engine set properly). And my brothers Nissan Titan truck, though he likes it, was a nightmare of replacing the transmission, rear differential, brakes, & powersteering. Thankfully that was all warranty. :D
Well honestly i knew the Toyeta is better and easy to service repair.
But as far as i know the ALL Japs car do not need the serious repair for the first 10 years:)
Of course If you employ it carefully, i mean changing the filters and oil at time.
The serious repairs is not thing that you should make every year.
I just worry about car's body- how long time this will save from corrosion?
Coz the repair of body is the really very expensive.

[pdf27]

Yes, but if the drawing is for a cheap part of Y material with a cycle of 5,000 uses it's still going to be of much lower quality than one of Y x 3 material with a cycle of 50,000 uses.
Yeah, I know. And this particular design stage is what I do for a living (on vacuum pumps for scientific instruments rather than power tools, but the principle holds).
What is happening with the tools in your rant is covered nicely by your bit at the end, where you say:
Most DIYers won't notice it, because they're using crap to build crap, but the fact remains that most cheap tools are crap. Even if the tools are produced to clear specifications and drawings.
Which tells me that they are being produced to a design spot on to the requirement - the customer (which remember is the DIY stores, not people at home) want something as cheap as possible that they can sell for the maximum price in the maximum numbers. That means a "quality" feel to the exterior, minimum possible price, and a life of say 95% exceeding 5 years in use by home customers.
This in turn means that there is a very strong incentive for manufacturers to cut part costs, use cheaper parts (e.g. mild steel rather than tool steel) - as they will be penalised if they produce good quality tools.

It is possible to both improve quality and reduce cost, but you've got to apply a lot of brainpower to it and you frequently end up with a large number of patents. I've got one pending myself out of the current project which (in combination with a number of others - all are required for the saving to work) is worth maybe half a million quid a year in extra profit while improving the quality of the product.

[Nickdfresh]

I was recently overjoyed during a tool-buying expidition to a major "home improvement" chain outlet (Home Depot) and found that the majority of power tools (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch) were still built in the US, Canada, or in Japan. I think some of the companies are getting the message that not only is there a significant dropoff in quality in Chinese made products, there's also the nonexistent QC and safety regulations....

[pdf27]

I think some of the companies are getting the message that not only is there a significant dropoff in quality in Chinese made products, there's also the nonexistent QC and safety regulations....
The company I work for buys a hell of a lot of stuff from China, and quality is very mixed. If you're willing to pay appropriate prices it is possible to get stuff which is actually a lot better than you would get from an equivalent american or european supplier. Thing is, most people go all out to get the cheapest prices they can from China and don't do proper quality control/process control. That's when you get crap products or safety issues.

[Rising Sun*]

This in turn means that there is a very strong incentive for manufacturers to cut part costs, use cheaper parts (e.g. mild steel rather than tool steel) - as they will be penalised if they produce good quality tools.

We might all be penalised for poor quality tools in time.

The environmental cost in producing a crap tool, particularly power tools, can't be significantly lower than the environmental cost in producing a good quality one. It might even be higher if we compare industrial environmental controls in developed countries with those in China.

A cheap power drill still needs a lot of copper winding and a chuck and a case and solder etc, which are still going to be made from the same basic mineral sources in crap and quality tools. The same with cheap tungsten blades, which are likely to throw teeth or break in the first few hours of use unlike, say, my 25 year old Sandvik tungsten tipped blade which has been resharpened many times (each resharpening at a cost which exceeds the cost of some cheap blades, and even sets of three or four cheap tungsten tipped blades for smaller saws!). The cheap tools are going to have much the same effect as quality ones in landfill when they're broken. They're just going to get there a lot, lot quicker and in much bigger numbers, not least because they're not valuable enough to repair.

A separate aspect of tools and the environment is that our big box hardware chain is now selling CO2 cylinders to power compressed air tools, for people who don't have a compressor. Seems a bit odd, given all the concern about CO2 in the atmosphere.

[Rising Sun*]

The company I work for buys a hell of a lot of stuff from China, and quality is very mixed. If you're willing to pay appropriate prices it is possible to get stuff which is actually a lot better than you would get from an equivalent american or european supplier. Thing is, most people go all out to get the cheapest prices they can from China and don't do proper quality control/process control. That's when you get crap products or safety issues.

True, but there's a culture in much of Chinese industry which aims to shave costs wherever it can, regardless of specifications. The samples are made to specs, but not the production run. In China it's not always a case of getting what you pay for. You often don't get even what you pay for, at any level.

I've heard the following sort of story quite a bit over the years.


Friday, November 23, 2007

China mistake a drag for one local manufacturer
Boston Business Journal - by Naomi R. Kooker Journal staff

Hadley Pollet, owner and president of Hadley Pollet LLC, stopped offshoring her manufacturing work to China in the wake of shoddy workmanship and patent-infringement issues.

Hadley Pollet had been in business designing and selling fashion accessories for four years when she started manufacturing 80 percent of her products in China. Her goal was to shave costs.

After a year, Pollet had had it. She says faulty products not made to her specs, wrong sizes and shoddy workmanship cost the company, Hadley Pollet LLC, half a million dollars in losses. She has also been embroiled in a dispute over intellectual property theft.

"It was a one-ring circus," said Pollet, whose company is in Brighton. "It's like the Wild West over there. You don't know what the truth is."

This year Pollet pulled out of China. She already has re-established manufacturing ties in the United States, including outfits in Boston, New Hampshire and New York and is getting her $2 million business back on its feet.

At a time when Boston businesses are increasingly turning to China and other countries to outsource their manufacturing, Pollet's is a cautionary tale on navigating complicated waters. While many manufacturers have had positive experiences, outsourcing veterans agree it takes careful planning to make those relationships work.

In addition, intellectual property infringement -- a common problem in China -- can cost tens of thousands to defend. Pollet said if she hadn't manufactured in China, she would not have the infringement issues she has now.

"People have been burned, others have had great success. It's not a panacea -- just going offshore to solve your manufacturing problems," said Brian Gilmore, executive vice president of Associated Industries of Massachusetts, the state's largest industry trade group. "Unless you're organized to run efficiently, just pushing the work off-shore isn't going to necessarily solve problems."
Pollet, who designs belts, bags and headbands, wasn't looking for a panacea. She set out to manufacture in China for reasons others do: It's easier and it's cheaper.

In the United States, Pollet has to source all the individual pieces that go into making a product, like a belt, herself. In China, you give a business contact the finished sample product and the manufacturer produces all the pieces, she says. "When you send it over to China, they handle the whole kit and caboodle."

She says she used reliable references to get up and running China. However, her contact, a woman who managed production in China, wasn't following through: Pollet would ask for an antique brass belt buckle, and the belt would arrive with a regular brass buckle.

Pollet said handbags that had woven handles arrived without adhesive on the handles, so they unraveled. "We had to recall $200,000 worth of bags," she said. One time a shipment of belts that were supposed to be adult sized came in as children's sizes, she said.

"It cost us $56,000. We just disposed of them," she said.

In terms of counterfeit products, Pollet has spent the past two years tracking the illegal reproduction of her products. "It's all been tracking back to being made in China," she said, surmising it's cost the company $20,000 to fight the infringements.

Pollet now spends anywhere from $200,000 to $500,000 a year to manufacture in the United States. Since she's decided to stay here, business is booming. In the past week Pollet has added 10 new stores to her retail list.

"Now that I've shifted my manufacturing, it's as if the universe has decided to give us the gift of more business," she said. http://www.bizjournals.com/masshightech/othercities/boston/stories/2007/11/26/story6.html?b=1196053200^1554192&page=2

[pdf27]

If you're inspecting a sample batch but not samples from everything you get in then you deserve everything that happens to you for being that stupid IMHO. That woman in the article sounds like a total moron for instance.

To give you some idea of what is involved when you want to do it right, last year we seconded two UK employees from our purchasing department of my factory to China for a year (one to Hong Kong, the other to Shanghai) in addition to the local employees we already had over there. Even then, they were only buying relatively simple parts with no IP in them - right now it simply doesn't make sense to make the complicated and expensive bits out there due in our case to the extremely high cost of failure. Simply put, the saving of a few pounds per part maximum in moving a part to China is offset by the shipping cost and the risk of it destroying a £10,000 device with the associated warranty/reputation costs.

[tankgeezer]

As more and more manufacturers of consumer goods outsource production to China, and greater numbers of domestic employment disappears, there comes a time when the act of outsourcing destroys the customer base the manufacturer depended upon.
At what point do the companies that undermine their own countries economy through these practices become some type of economic traitor?

[Rising Sun*]

At what point do the companies that undermine their own countries economy through these practices become some type of economic traitor?

In Australia's case, at least 15 years ago in clothing, textiles and footwear, followed since by a range of other industries that have gone completely or largely offshore, mostly to China. A country that can't make its own clothing, footwear, textiles and many basic consumer goods is in trouble. Exactly the reverse of where we were in the sixties and seventies. We can't even make our own bloody underpants any more!

The principle of comparative advantage is all very well, but where does that leave country A that's exported its productive capacity to cheaper country B when country B becomes sufficiently wealthy to float its currency to its true value and country A loses its purchasing power? Which is what's going to happen with China, sooner or later.

Governments forget, and businesses don't care, that industrial capacity is critical if we get into a war, which in the foreseeable future could well involve guess who as the enemy?

That'd be right. China.

Maybe they can give us a warning, so we can stock up on underpants for the duration.

[pdf27]

Yawn. Sorry guys, but that's just protectionist claptrap. What is happening is that the low value manufacturing is moving to China. The high value manufacturing (machine tools, etc.) is resolutely not moving to China, nor is any of the design.

The net result is that 90% by value of most products made in China stays in the west, and that substantial quantities of high value goods are exported to China to support their manufacturing economy. My company for instance manufactures in the South-East of England, with a very high fraction of our exports going to China.

[Chevan]

Yawn. Sorry guys, but that's just protectionist claptrap. What is happening is that the low value manufacturing is moving to China. The high value manufacturing (machine tools, etc.) is resolutely not moving to China, nor is any of the design.

For the while....
They already today could themself produse a lot of highly value manufacturing things as microcontrlolers, aircraft turbo-jets , submarine and rocket engines.
So i rathe thing this is just the matter of time when the China will fully technilogically independent.

[Chevan]

The principle of comparative advantage is all very well, but where does that leave country A that's exported its productive capacity to cheaper country B when country B becomes sufficiently wealthy to float its currency to its true value and country A loses its purchasing power? Which is what's going to happen with China, sooner or later.
.
What wrong with this?
Is this a gult of "cheaper country B" that capitalists of state A in aim of super-profits move all plants to the B?;)
If you care about it - just forbid your bas... capitalists to export the industry out of your states;)

[Man of Stoat]

You can't forbid that in a democratic system, all you can do is impose tariffs on imports (which have been proven time and time again to be a waste of time effort and money).

RS*, it was discovered a while back that the MoD was procuring uniforms made in... wait for it... China. That's what the bureaucracy calls "smart" procurement...

[pdf27]

They already today could themself produse a lot of highly value manufacturing things as microcontrlolers, aircraft turbo-jets , submarine and rocket engines.
Microprocessors manufactured in China are almost universally designed in California, Japan or Taiwan - and my company are one of the bigger suppliers of the machine tools to manufacture microprocessors with (biggest in what we do).
Aircraft turbo jets - until very recently, the most advanced engine China could produce was a knock-off of the Rolls-Royce Spey, an engine designed in the late 1950s. They have started to produce more modern engines, but these are largely Russian designs manufactured under license. There is a WHOLE lot more to jet engines than just manufacturing it - the amount of technology in an advanced engine is awesome, and because of the amount of time they spend in the air a percentage point in fuel consumption is enough to make the difference between a best seller and a dud.
Submarine and rocket engines - they're welcome to it. The market for those is tiny, so if they make them that's money they aren't spending on something they can sell instead of me ;)

[Rising Sun*]

Yawn. Sorry guys, but that's just protectionist claptrap. What is happening is that the low value manufacturing is moving to China.

Closely followed by increasingly high value manufacturing at an accelerating rate in future.

Based on this set of four leading indicators, Israel and China received the highest composite scores of the 15 nations examined. Both appear to be positioning themselves for future prominence as exporters of technology products in the global marketplace. Israel ranked first in national orientation based on strong governmental and cultural support promoting technology production, and first in socioeconomic infrastructure because of its large number of trained scientists and engineers, its highly regarded industrial research enterprise, and its contribution to scientific knowledge. Israel placed second and third on the two remaining indicators (figure 6-21 , appendix tables 6-9 , 6-10 , and 6-11 ).

China 's composite score for 2005 fell just short of Israel's, but the rise in its overall score over the past 2 years is noteworthy. China showed improvement in all four indicators and significant improvement in three: national orientation, technological infrastructure, and productive capacity. Its large population helped raise its score on several indicator components; this shows how scale effects, both in terms of large domestic demand for high-technology products and the ability to train large numbers of scientists and engineers, provide advantages to developing nations. http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/c6/c6s4.htm

The high value manufacturing (machine tools, etc.) is resolutely not moving to China, nor is any of the design.

Review that statement in five or ten years. China is just post-war Japan all over again, but with vastly more potential, and expanding more rapidly.

A country that can build atomic weapons, run its own space program, and build an expanding navy can build anything it wants.

China has the capacity to do anything the West can, and in the not too distant future it will start taking a bigger share of that production, too.

Remember the UK shipyards, rendered largely irrelevant by about 1980 by Japan's shipbuilding prowess?

The net result is that 90% by value of most products made in China stays in the west, and that substantial quantities of high value goods are exported to China to support their manufacturing economy. My company for instance manufactures in the South-East of England, with a very high fraction of our exports going to China.

That's not the experience in the US.

A new study has found that the United States' growing trade deficit with China has had an increasingly negative impact on the U.S. economy, causing job losses that reach into the most technologically advanced industries in the manufacturing sector and affect every state, according to a January 11 [2005] press release by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission (USCC).http://usinfo.state.gov/ei/Archive/2005/Jan/12-31762.html

The US trade deficit with China doesn't support the view that 90% of the value of most products stays in the US.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

[Rising Sun*]

RS*, it was discovered a while back that the MoD was procuring uniforms made in... wait for it... China. That's what the bureaucracy calls "smart" procurement...

Well, as long as they buy enough to last however long a war with China is going to last, what's the problem?

Naturally, I'm assuming that they've thought of the possibility that there might be a war with China, which would cut off their uniform supply. I'm sure they would have thought of that, because they're smart.

It's unlike Australia buying the Leopard tank many moons ago, when our procurement people weren't any smarter than they usually are. There was some disquiet at one stage when it was pointed out that while we'd bought a modest amount of spares, and bearing in mind this is when the Cold War was quite warm, we didn't have an awful lot of spares. And if things got nasty in Europe, which was going to be the first NATO country to get rolled through by the Soviets? Thus creating some problems for our tank parts, especially if the European situation was reflected in trouble closer to us which rapidly chewed up our spare parts.

[Chevan]

Review that statement in five or ten years. China is just post-war Japan all over again, but with vastly more potential, and expanding more rapidly.

A country that can build atomic weapons, run its own space program, and build an expanding navy can build anything it wants.

China has the capacity to do anything the West can, and in the not too distant future it will start taking a bigger share of that production, too.

That is what i,m talking about.

Fully agree with Rising Sun. The state that could produce the space aircraft could do everything.
Sure the most of that they produse is the Licenzed western or russian technologies. Moreover often they simply steal the designs.
However if they could copy those things enough good- they could improve and developed it further it if they want

[Rising Sun*]

Fully agree with Rising Sun.

Just go easy on that.

Egorka and I started agreeing. We actually had a public love-in. Then he pretty much stopped posting.

Like I've said before, I need you around for a bit of conflict. :D

[Chevan]

Just go easy on that.

Egorka and I started agreeing. We actually had a public love-in. Then he pretty much stopped posting.

Well i guess he just see that you begin to write his thought:)
So this is not need for him to post any more:)

Like I've said before, I need you around for a bit of conflict. :D

You know i could not bring just a "bit of conflict"- if i do begin the conflict - this could be a ONLY a big ONE , after than they USIALLY banned me for the few time.:D

[tankgeezer]

So very true R.S. The West cannot afford an underpants gap! (sorry to plaigerize lines from Dr. Strangelove)
I dont care for Chinese produced foot wear either, never seems to fit right, I spend the extra greenbacks for american boots(yes they are still available) and they fit my US foot just fine.. With all of the negative press China is getting these days for product contamination, one would think that their export industies would be starting to worry about losing business.

[Rising Sun*]

So very true R.S. The West cannot afford an underpants gap!

Wanna know why I'm focused on underpants with China?

'Cos if we go to war with them, I'm gonna be ruining underpants at a frightening rate. :D

[Nickdfresh]

Yawn. Sorry guys, but that's just protectionist claptrap. What is happening is that the low value manufacturing is moving to China. The high value manufacturing (machine tools, etc.) is resolutely not moving to China, nor is any of the design.

The net result is that 90% by value of most products made in China stays in the west, and that substantial quantities of high value goods are exported to China to support their manufacturing economy. My company for instance manufactures in the South-East of England, with a very high fraction of our exports going to China.

But China IS PROTECTIONIST! And the perceived exchange that was supposed to benefit more Western manufacturers than just Boeing and maybe Caterpillar never surfaced. This is largely because of the Chinese trade stance and the disregard for human rights (or of humanity in general), worker protections, environmental regulations, and the tolerance of corruption despite to odd execution every now and then...

Granted, though there is some hyperbole, there is chemical contamination all over China that finds its way into goods (i.e the antifreeze ethyl-glycol in toothpaste), and of course, the lead paint on their toys...

[Rising Sun*]

I dont care for Chinese produced foot wear either, never seems to fit right, I spend the extra greenbacks for american boots(yes they are still available) and they fit my US foot just fine.. With all of the negative press China is getting these days for product contamination, one would think that their export industies would be starting to worry about losing business.

It ain't all China's fault.

I bought three Irwin drill bit one foot extensions recently.

Pieces of crap, they are. Not rigid in use. Allen key grub screws stripped in no time on one, rounded out the heads on two with moderate pressure. Don't know about the third, because I haven't used that piece of shit yet, and probably won't unless I need a poker for a very small fire.

Got the vernier caliper out and it confirmed my failing sight's opinion. Slimmer shafts on the extensions. Slimmer head around the bit housing.

Slimmer grub screw with less thread.

No doubt inferior material all the way through.

Compared with what?

Compared with the same size Irwin extension I've been using for 30 or so years, made in the good ol' US of A. It's rigid in use and its grub screws have had a heap of pressure on them without complaining. It's also a 12" extension where the new ones are 300mm, which is a metric 12".

Well, it's not, because the old one is 12" / 300mm from the chuck end to the end of the shaft, plus about 30mm for the bit housing. The new ones are 300mm overall.

The new ones, which are crap, have "Guaranteed since 1885" printed on the bottom of their plastic wallets. The old one, which isn't crap, didn't. It didn't need to, because when I bought it the name told me it was a reasonable quality tool.

Not like the modern crap that Irwin puts its name on, including crap but very cheap saw blades, that exemplify why once reliable names are going to hell in a handbasket in the race to produce the cheapest and least reliable shit in China for a stupid consumer public which wouldn't know a good tool if it was up them.

[Drake]

Hmm, with the chinese, I'd really love to see the next 1 or 2 decades in time lapse. My personal opinion is that they'll really run into major trouble in so many areas that it might very well lead to the disintegration of their society. Their overexploitation of the ecosystem would be my personal bet as the number one reason for a future disaster.

[tankgeezer]

Sometimes I think that the average American in the 20-30 yr. age group would have to google about what a tool is,, then how to use them. Having been a tool maker, (impact, and prying tools, ) I found it near impossible to find a shop boy who knew what anything was, including (no kidding,) a claw hammer

[Rising Sun*]

Sometimes I think that the average American in the 20-30 yr. age group would have to google about what a tool is,, then how to use them. Having been a tool maker, (impact, and prying tools, ) I found it near impossible to find a shop boy who knew what anything was, including (no kidding,) a claw hammer

As this topic is all over the place, and the more interesting for it, I might as well ask if the average American check out chick (teenage supermarket check out girl) has difficulty in identifying simple fruit and vegetables, like peas in their pods? That's caused consternation a few times for me.

A check out chick asked me recently, after carefully studying the item for a while and comparing it with pictures on her screen to help the vegetably challenged, if my leek was a spring onion (shallot? in US?). Der!

[Rising Sun*]

Hmm, with the chinese, I'd really love to see the next 1 or 2 decades in time lapse. My personal opinion is that they'll really run into major trouble in so many areas that it might very well lead to the disintegration of their society. Their overexploitation of the ecosystem would be my personal bet as the number one reason for a future disaster.

This could be the start of it, with food prices inflating at 18% p.a., which if it works across the board will have the greatest impact on those least able to afford it. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/soaring-food-prices-lift-chinas/story.aspx?guid=0127E318-43CB-49C2-A3A7-01CA5D60B161&dist=SecMostRead

Welcome to the world of capitalism, China.

[tankgeezer]

As this topic is all over the place, and the more interesting for it, I might as well ask if the average American check out chick (teenage supermarket check out girl) has difficulty in identifying simple fruit and vegetables, like peas in their pods? That's caused consternation a few times for me.

A check out chick asked me recently, after carefully studying the item for a while and comparing it with pictures on her screen to help the vegetably challenged, if my leek was a spring onion (shallot? in US?). Der!

The larger U.S. food marts have everything automated, with bar codes etc. But, produce uses a different thing. There are stickers on the individual pieces of Veg, or fruit that have a number, which the computer at the checkout knows to be a particulat item. The checker enters the #, and is then prompted to either enter the quantity of items so numbered, or to weigh them. then the computer does everything else. I have been asked what the price of certain things are on occasion, or what they were, (sometimes there are no stickers,, )
much like McDonalds, the system attempts to take the human influence out of the transaction, so that anyone, even those who do not speak English well, can operate it with some efficiency.

[pdf27]

This could be the start of it, with food prices inflating at 18% p.a., which if it works across the board will have the greatest impact on those least able to afford it.
Rather a good article on this in last week's Economist pointing out that rising food prices will tend to help the poorest in society (subsistence farmers in the third world) more than anyone else, assuming governments don't screw things up.

Anyone reckon they'll manage not to screw things up a treat?

[Drake]

Anyone reckon they'll manage not to screw things up a treat?

Hrhr, never, they will screw up, of that I'm sure. :rolleyes:

[Rising Sun*]

Rather a good article on this in last week's Economist pointing out that rising food prices will tend to help the poorest in society (subsistence farmers in the third world) more than anyone else, assuming governments don't screw things up.

That doesn't make sense.

By definition, subsistence farmers don't sell produce. They produce only enough for themselves, if that.

If the argument is that peasant farmers will do well, I doubt it. There's not a lot of history to show that any economy favours peasant farmers in sharing profits in a bountiful fashion.


Anyone reckon they'll manage not to screw things up a treat?

My confidence in governments is unshakeable.

They screw up everthing a treat, even screwing things up. Like this:

Queensland Premier Anna Bligh admits her government failed a 10-year-old girl pack-raped twice in an indigenous community - the second time after being returned there by child safety officers.

The admission came as court transcripts showed a legal officer who prosecuted the case described her pack-rape in 2006 as "childish experimentation'' and consensual "in a general sense''.

The child - who cannot be named - was gang-raped at the age of seven in Aurukun on Cape York in 2002, and was later put into foster care with a non-indigenous family in Cairns.

However, child safety officers in April 2006 returned her to Aurukun, where she was raped again at the age of 10.

Ms Bligh today admitted the Child Safety Department had failed the girl.

"I think it is very important to understand, and I don't resile from the fact for one moment, the system clearly failed this little girl,'' Ms Bligh told reporters.

But she said the government took immediate action by disciplining the officers involved, moving the child, and improving child safety processes.

Ms Bligh could not give a reason for the officers' decision to return the girl to Aurukun, but said it should never have happened.

Cairns-based District Court judge Sarah Bradley did not record convictions against six teenage attackers and gave three others aged 17, 18 and 26 suspended sentences over the 2006 rape.

The state government is appealing the sentences and has ordered a review of around 75 sexual assault cases in Cape York over the past two years.

One senior child safety officer has been sacked and two others suspended for 12 months on full pay over the incident, but the two suspended officers are appealing the decision. My bold
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/we-failed-gangrape-girl-bligh/2007/12/11/1197135436147.html

Gee, I'd hate to be punished for screwing up as a government officer by being punished by the government by being paid for doing sweet FA for 12 months.

It'd be almost like being at work, asleep at the wheel, without having to turn up.

I might never be able to cope with the stress of having to go back to what, for want of a better term, is called work.

[Flammpanzer]

Not true. Certainly not as true as it once was. Both GM and Ford have higher reliability ratings that their Euro counterparts...

Where GM and Ford lose is in "fit and finish," (plain dashboards, lack of options, parts that don't fit well together etc.) because they simply cannot afford to offer what the Japanese and some of the Euros do...

very true. the problem here in germany and I think also in europe is, that us-built cars suffer from their bad image that they mainly deserved in the 80s and parts of the 90s. here, we only have about 1,5% of true US cars on the roads (by far the most are german cars and a lot japanese beside a growing part of korean autos, which are quite good I thik), only a few real "enthusiasts" buy detroit iron - like I did, allthough my chrysler 2-seater was built by KARMANN (www.karmann.de) in osnabrück, germany - with 39% of mercedes parts, but with true american design.

often, the cars from GM, fomoco and chrysler are much better than their image, but in a country with such high prices for gasolene like germany, you cannot win with gaz-guzzlers like an escalade. a pity that chrysler and benz went apart in the end.

jens

[tankgeezer]

This may be a n old thread by now, but I can shed a bit of light on American cars, I worked for G.M. for a long time, and the 70's-80's-early 90's, were not good decades for quality for any of the big 3. (GM in particular.) Not always from simple poor quality of fit&finish, but some serious design flaws, and poor materials as well. Aside from the usual screw-ups on the line from speed-ups, and parts shortages, and monday/friday syndrome, there were problems resulting from high M.P.G. expectations of the E.P.A.The Fleet average fuel mileage needed to come up alot. G.M. felt this was more important than general quality, so their armies of engineers worked on what to do about it.
One of the first things was to build a V-6 engine, and put it in full sized cars. thought it would save fuel use. All it did was under power the large cars, and force the general to lower the ratio of the differential gears to compensate, causing the engines to wear out prematurely,about 50,000 miles. Consumers were not impressed.
Their next great idea was to convert some highend models to diesel power, not by producing a true diesel engine, or buying one out on the maket, but by changeing some gas engines into deisels with different heads, and some other fittings. These didnt last long either, as the blocks, and other parts of the engine were built for gas, and couldnt stand the pressures of diesel, so they broke apart, sometimes splitting right down the middle. Consumers were not impressed.
Then there was the new idea for Cadillac, the much hyped 4-6-8 engine, that would shut cylinders off as the car cruised, not needing them to run at highway speeds, until needed for passing etc. All it ever really did was catch fire easily. No cookie there either.
The 305-350 cu.in. gas engines that had bad cams in them, resulting in expensive repairs, GM denied all warranty claims as being a customer fault problem. The courts later decided otherwise, so rack up another great idea.
The Turbo metric 200 transmission, supposed way of the future, could, (and was ) be installed in any sized car, and featured parts of some new plastic, that would save miles by weighing less. or some such tripe. They failed miserably, unable to withstand the rigors of even smaller engined cars. about 85% needed to be replaced. Another triumph for the general.
There are more of these bad ideas from the general, but I dont want to use up the whole site's space. When I retired a year ago, the quality had improved to be on par with anyones, Toyota, honda, even the German badges. And this is pretty much the case in the big three now. there is eally no telling difference in who's car you buy. Toyota has a good reutation, but in truth, it is mostly perceptual, their cars are not measurably better than any other, they just have a good PR campaign, and have sold the idea till people believe it. They have some proceedural superiority, but it doesnt help the consumer.

[Rising Sun*]

tankgeezer

If you think the US car industry was bad, you should have seen BMC / British Leyland / Leyland Australia.

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?quotesf.htm

There are so many disasters in its history that it's hard to pick the worst, but one of its best efforts of corporate stupidity has to be proceeding with both the ex-Buick Rover V8 and the Triumph V8, both 3.5 litre, when Rover and Triumph were under the same umbrella.

The Rover V8 went on to become a very good motor, while the Triumph V8 suffered numerous problems, not least legendary overheating problems even in England and a stretchy timing chain that needed to be changed every 20,000 miles, before it started jumping teeth with interesting consequences.

Of course, there were some other brilliant achievements, notably building cars intended for the US that couldn't meet US emission controls. The Triumph TR6 sports car developed 150 HP with Lucas petrol injection (who knows what it could have done with Bosch or any other reliable injection system?), but to meet US emission controls they fitted twin Strombergs that produced only about 105 HP and sold it as the Triumph 250 in the US. Similar problems with Spitfires and TR7's.

Because of the strict emission laws that were in force in the USA by 1975, extensive anti-smog equipment was installed in the TR7 and the 8-Valve 2-Litre engine, which was not exactly the most powerful engine to start with, suffered badly from the resultant power loss. In the USA, the TR7 was offered in two states of tune in order to meet the varying emission regulations within the country: 90bhp from twin-Stromberg carburettors in 49-State tune and a paltry 76bhp in single-carburettor California tune. In reality, this fact demonstrated that British Leyland had no suitable “federal” engine in their line-up and they were suffering as a result of this. http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?tr7storyf.htm

When Triumph finally got it right, using the Rover V8 in the TR8, it got there just in time for things to go wrong.

1980 heralded the introduction of the Triumph TR8, but unfortunately for British Triumph fans, it was made available in the USA only. Strong and smooth Rover V8 engine allied with the convertible body style made for an extremely appealing car – a kind of latter-day MGB-V8, in fact. Performance and economy were excellent and the aluminium alloy engine was perfectly suited to the job of being the power unit for a ragtop. TVR would make a good living through building such cars in later years.

The USA market recovered as a result of the launch of the convertible model, but it could not have come at a worse time, as the World slipped into global recession following the Iranian crisis in 1979. This factor alone did not affect the sales of the Triumph in the USA, but when the exchange rates moved in favour of a strong Pound, it certainly affected the profitability of the company's sports cars in the USA. When the TR8 went on general sale in the USAin May 1980, it was met with unanimous praise, being hailed as nothing less than the, “Re-invention of the Sports Car”, by Car and Driver magazine. http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?tr7storyf.htm

As for Toyota's reputation for reliability, I think that persists because it was earned between the 1960's and 1980's when other makes weren't as well made. Once earned, a reputation like that is hard to lose.

[Flammpanzer]

Toyota has a good reutation, but in truth, it is mostly perceptual, their cars are not measurably better than any other, they just have a good PR campaign, and have sold the idea till people believe it.

hehe, boring cars in fact, but they ARE good. every year the german ADAC (www.adac.de) makes a large survey where components like durability, reliability, defects and other important facts to measure a car`s "value" are checked out. toyota is always under the best 10 autos. beside volvo, which makes it sometimes into the top ten, there are only japanese cars and a few germans (mercedes and porsche mainly). the highly preferred VW golf (bestseller here) had it`s problems to reach the peak, anyway, the VWs have a brilliant reputation here in their homeland and nearly everyone (so it seems) buys one.

the US automalers still have to learn a lot I think, and I also think that only very few US cars can really match to german autos. again, I drive a chrylser and never would buy a german automobile, but it is enough to sit down in a buick and than in a an audi f. e. the whole materials are still crappy in the buick and the often old techniques like suspensiosn systems and gas guzzling engines will prevent a real success in europe. I recently checked out the new mustang - again, it is the old US-problem: an emotional, sensetional design, fully loaded, but antique technical solutions like the rear axle.

jens

[Rising Sun*]

the US automalers still have to learn a lot I think, and I also think that only very few US cars can really match to german autos. again, I drive a chrylser and never would buy a german automobile, but it is enough to sit down in a buick and than in a an audi f. e. the whole materials are still crappy in the buick and the often old techniques like suspensiosn systems and gas guzzling engines will prevent a real success in europe. I recently checked out the new mustang - again, it is the old US-problem: an emotional, sensetional design, fully loaded, but antique technical solutions like the rear axle.

jens

Maybe.

One thing I notice every time there's extreme weather here is that the most common car pulled up on the side of the freeway is the Merc.

Used to be Jaguars, in droves compared with Mercs (and that was only the Jags which made it out of the garage), before Ford sorted them out. More or less.

Not sure what you mean by rear axle.

Rear axle drive is the only way to propel a car for anyone who wants to drive properly, and tow.

[Drake]

Actually, as far as I followed it over here, Mercedes had quite some difficulties between 2000 and 2004, qualitywise. You'll have a hard time to RIP a Benz from the seventies, but all the electronics pretty much screw the modern cars. And as expensive cars tend to have more gadgets, they also tend to have more trouble in the electronic systems.

[Moreheaddriller]

Why do i want to buy some crap with wheels on it

[Rising Sun*]

Why do i want to buy some crap with wheels on it

This is the third of your three utterly silly comments. Try not to make it four.

[pdf27]

This is the third of your three utterly silly comments. Try not to make it four.
As a matter of fact all his posts have been in that category.

Oh, and Moreheaddriller, change your avatar please. Site rules state WW2 avatars only.

[Nickdfresh]

Some excellent comments in this thread overall, and kudos to Tankgeezer, pdf, RS* and everyone else...

hehe, boring cars in fact, but they ARE good. every year the german ADAC (www.adac.de) makes a large survey where components like durability, reliability, defects and other important facts to measure a car`s "value" are checked out. toyota is always under the best 10 autos.

Well you see, that's just it. Toyota is boring because their now repeating the mistake that GM made in the early 90's, focusing their production and R&D in the States on SUVs, trucks, and crossover SUVs. I think they're just resting on their laurels and I'm hearing some anecdotal stuff about Toyotas, specifically the Highlander, driving shitty and becoming "rattly." Take for instance the Toyota Corolla, a mainstay here for the small car buy. But it is extremely dated and some auto mags are actually beginning to pan the design as old, underpowered, and very very boring.

Right now I drive a late 90s vintage Saturn as my commuter car, and the that has only four less horsepower than the 2008 Corolla (124HP vs. 128HP). Also, a lot of people are decrying the new "Camcords" (both Toyota Camry and Honda Accord) as boring and lacking innovation. People tend to think that Toyota is flawless, but in fact, they have produced some real shit over the years. Their 90s vintage engines for the Camry's were known as "sluggers" because of a defect that caused them to cook the motor oil resulting in serious deposits. And there have been some recent serious recalls involving faulty wiring, and fire, on their American "luxury line" known as Lexus (not sure if that is in Europe or South Asia)...

beside volvo, which makes it sometimes into the top ten, there are only japanese cars and a few germans (mercedes and porsche mainly). the highly preferred VW golf (bestseller here) had it`s problems to reach the peak, anyway, the VWs have a brilliant reputation here in their homeland and nearly everyone (so it seems) buys one.

Well, it's sometimes difficult to go by quality lists though since often there is an inherent bias on the part of the editorial staff. But I can tell you that while the Volkswagen "Rabbit," as the Golf is known in the US market, is popular with its owners, Volkswagen is having serious issues with their reliability since they'd outsourced production to Mexico and the brand is suffering greatly in the US market...

the US automalers still have to learn a lot I think, and I also think that only very few US cars can really match to german autos.

I agree that US auto makers have a lot to learn, but their overall quality surveys are actually much better than overall Euro makers in the US markets...Volkswagens are just terrible overall here mainly due to their faulty electrical stuff (though I like the Rabbit), Mercedes routinely gets bad reliability marks in Consumer Reports (which is why I think it is strange that so many love them here - not payin' $40,000 for unreliable styling, sorry), and BMWs are okay, but they tend to have their issues as well. The Beamers seem to be the ubiquitous "pecuniary emulation" status symbol here...

again, I drive a chrylser and never would buy a german automobile, but it is enough to sit down in a buick and than in a an audi f. e. the whole materials are still crappy in the buick and the often old techniques like suspensiosn systems and gas guzzling engines will prevent a real success in europe. I recently checked out the new mustang - again, it is the old US-problem: an emotional, sensetional design, fully loaded, but antique technical solutions like the rear axle.

jens

I think I hinted at this in an earlier post but didn't explain it. American "fit and finish" and styling are sub par because the cost of production of a GM or Ford automobile is higher than that of a Japanese orgined (but American produced) Camry or Civic. That's their burden to bare.

It's largely because the Unions here are strong in the automotive arena, but deals are being made and a lot of American makes are no longer actually made in America as many Japanese owned companies are made in America. Then there's the fact that Ford, effectively or outright, owns Volvo, Mazda, Range Rover, and Jaguar and has effectively reduced the quality of the fist two. Their "f%$^ing faulty automatic transmission put into the early 1990's vintage Mazda 323s and 626's almost single handedly sank Mazda by giving them a very undeserved reputation for poor quality. This despite the fact that they were superior to the Accord or Camry when comparing the manual transmission variants, and the first 626s had received favorable early comparisons to BMWs and Mercedes rather than Accords or Tauruses. That put them into crisis from which they are only now really emerging from, though the Miata, Protege and the RX7/8 saved them from insolvency and maintained an image for performance on the products Ford kept their paws off of.

The manual transmissioned 626 from say 1994 was one of the best things on the road in its class and for the money. The auto trans thing (which is difficult for makers without vast experience in the US market) also unfair because Honda automatic transmissions from the 80s, and continuing to present day, are nothing to shout about either. But Ford also saved the latter and improved on their quality controls after nearly raping Mazda for their technology and returning the favor by giving them shitty auto transmissions, and US car makers lag only slightly behind the Japanese in quality, but far behind everyone is some areas of fit and finish in their interior cabin designs...:D

BTW, I love the new Mustang. If only I could afford a Saleen (http://www.saleen.com/saleen-parnellijones.htm) Oooof!

[Flammpanzer]

Rear axle drive is the only way to propel a car for anyone who wants to drive properly, and tow.

it has an antique fixed rear axle (I cannot explain better, sorry), not an independant rear suspension like all modern cars. on our streets and with the speeds you can drive here, this is a very unsave and uncomfortable way to drive. the few mustangs sold here suffer from massive cooling problems when going fast for a longer period. anyway, it is a nice car, but has no chance on the european market, although many like the design.

but their overall quality surveys are actually much better than overall Euro makers in the US markets.

again, I have to doubt that a bit for myself, allthough it could be referring to the mexican built cars f. e..

in direct comparison with euro brands, most us automakers will not be lucky winners in general, for sure. and there is a strong argument for that: there are and were quite a few us brands here on the market and for decades (!) - some models from chevrolet, cadillac, chrysler, some us ford models, dodge has been reissued as a brand here in 2007 with 5 us models - they never played any role at all. under 2% of all cars here us made. buyers chose BWM, OPEL, AUDI, RENAÚLT, NISSAN or what else and believe me, the us brands do and did a lot to catch attraction: they had the better design and provided much more value for money. chryler builds it`s autos in austria (300c, several jeeps), which is not a bad place to that. anyway, they always -year by year - get blasted by the ADAC-surey, which is the largest in europe.

the overall quality (not only the fit) is not better in general compared to european brands, look how many percent of buyers in the last years switched to japanese or european cars and they still do. wasn`t 2007 the first year, where more us consumers bought non-domestic cars ever in history? and this has also it`s reasons in general quality flaws.


jens

[gumalangi]

Man,. i bought this beast on 1995.,.. not once this baby ever let me down,.. we went to many undiscovered trails,.. I could par my stock pajero with somewhat modified landy boys and land cruisers alike.. I event ever to pull out one FJ40 out of a mud.

Untill now,. am not intend to let go this baby,..

[royal744]

It's worse than Ford crap, and this comes from someone who's been driving Ford crap off and on for the past 35 years, with occasional experiences in Mitsubishis and other Asian attempts to build motor cars as distinct from transport.

Ford crap is good crap, but Mitsubishi crap is just crap crap, but nice rice crap.

At least Henry Ford paid his workers well, while his anti-union thugs were quite gentle compared with Mitsubishi.

Rising Sun, you are always a treat. I must tell you that for many years up until I left my parent's house in Houston, buying Japanese was not an issue - it was merely unthinkable.
My father worked for a rather large American petrochemicals company, and one day in the late 1950s he announced that he had to entertain some executives from Japan, from, in fact, Mitsubishi. My mother had a fit. She clenched her jaw and did what any self-respecting American housewife would have done in the 50s, she buckled down and prepared dinner for our Japanese guests. I remember them as being shy, smiling, always nodding and polite to a fault. I can't recall my mother saying a word and her smiles were grimaces.
What lay behind this, Rising Sun, is that both my parents are about 40%-50% Indonesian and the rest is Dutch. As it happens, neither one was in Indonesia during WW2. Instead, they enjoyed life in German-occupied Holland for the duration. But my grandmother on my mother's side as well as my adoptive grandparents on my father's side were prisoners of the Japanese. Much worse, is the fact the mother's mother was in a rest home for people with mental problems in a place called "Buitenzorg". The Japanese simply could not be bothered with these people, and the story goes that they set the home on fire and machine-gunned those who had the presence of mind to run for it.
I do not blame the generations that came after the war for the war, but I am very suspicious of the Japanese disinclination even up until the present day to acknowledge to admit any responsibility for their role in starting the War in the Pacific, to recognize that they were much worse custodians of prisoners of war than the Germans, that they behaved in extremelly cruel, nasty and, yes, subhuman ways not only towards the Dutch, British, French, and Americans, but also towards their fellow Asians.
If you've heard the emperor's recording of the decision to surrender, nowhere in it does he say that Japan "lost the war", nor is there any hint of the culpability of the empire of Japan in starting it in the first place.
These are shameful facts that the continued Japanese unwillingness to recognize makes them into a rather shameful people. Any country, including the US, that cannot face up to its own failings, has some very serious problems indeed. I realize fully well, as do you, that all of this took place a very long time ago, but as long as there are people who remember, it will not be forgotten, either.

[Rising Sun*]

Rising Sun, you are always a treat. I must tell you that for many years up until I left my parent's house in Houston, buying Japanese was not an issue - it was merely unthinkable.
My father worked for a rather large American petrochemicals company, and one day in the late 1950s he announced that he had to entertain some executives from Japan, from, in fact, Mitsubishi. My mother had a fit. She clenched her jaw and did what any self-respecting American housewife would have done in the 50s, she buckled down and prepared dinner for our Japanese guests. I remember them as being shy, smiling, always nodding and polite to a fault. I can't recall my mother saying a word and her smiles were grimaces.
What lay behind this, Rising Sun, is that both my parents are about 40%-50% Indonesian and the rest is Dutch. As it happens, neither one was in Indonesia during WW2. Instead, they enjoyed life in German-occupied Holland for the duration. But my grandmother on my mother's side as well as my adoptive grandparents on my father's side were prisoners of the Japanese. Much worse, is the fact the mother's mother was in a rest home for people with mental problems in a place called "Buitenzorg". The Japanese simply could not be bothered with these people, and the story goes that they set the home on fire and machine-gunned those who had the presence of mind to run for it.
I do not blame the generations that came after the war for the war, but I am very suspicious of the Japanese disinclination even up until the present day to acknowledge to admit any responsibility for their role in starting the War in the Pacific, to recognize that they were much worse custodians of prisoners of war than the Germans, that they behaved in extremelly cruel, nasty and, yes, subhuman ways not only towards the Dutch, British, French, and Americans, but also towards their fellow Asians.
If you've heard the emperor's recording of the decision to surrender, nowhere in it does he say that Japan "lost the war", nor is there any hint of the culpability of the empire of Japan in starting it in the first place.
These are shameful facts that the continued Japanese unwillingness to recognize makes them into a rather shameful people. Any country, including the US, that cannot face up to its own failings, has some very serious problems indeed. I realize fully well, as do you, that all of this took place a very long time ago, but as long as there are people who remember, it will not be forgotten, either.

I share your understanding and concerns.

There is a continuing and disturbing duplicity and dishonesty in Japan’s governmental (as distinct from the Japanese people’s) conduct and position which makes it impossible to treat it with confidence as a nation which has anything approaching a real understanding of its past, or any ability to recognise its past, which are pre-conditions to treating it now as a mature modern nation.

It’s not unlike the problem one has with one’s children from time to time. Until they recognise their responsibility for causing their own unhappy situation by their bad conduct, they don’t get privileges back. But Japan got its privileges back, without accepting responsibility for its own unhappy situation caused by its own bad conduct.

I make a distinction between accepting responsibility and apologising. Japan has made several national ‘apologies’, none of them in a clear “We’re sorry for launching the war and killing millions in barbaric circumstances etc”, but those equivocal apologies demonstrate a complete inability to accept responsibility for what it did. Going back to dealing with errant children, an apology means nothing if it isn’t accompanied by some understanding of why the act apologised for was wrong, whether that understanding comes from an internal realisation or is forced upon them by educating them in how their act was wrong so that they understand it and are discouraged from repeating it.

The real problem is not the average Japanese person nowadays, for most of whom WWII is of no more significance than it is for most Americans or Australians, most of the latter of whom are informed about the war by such educational cinematic triumphs of stereotypical Hollywood bullshit as Pearl Harbor, which as I type is irritating me on free to air TV with modern computer stuff over modern dialogue and Hollywood drivel which appears to be based on any of a number of 1942 – 45 Hollywood propaganda movies, or possibly a Bruce Willis kills King Kong movie. Typical Hollywood. Too much talk, too much action, too little historical accuracy, and no bloody substance. Which is where many of your and my people get their simplistic understanding of the Pacific War, and no doubt the Japanese get theirs from equally histrionic, selective, inaccurate and historically meaningless presentations of the war.

The real problem in Japan is largely with the still powerful remnants of the same regime which took them to war and which is still a significant element in its conservative political party and in promoting a revisionist history of Japan’s war.

And it's exactly that element which in a more rabid form got Japan into WWII.

Hirohito's 'surrender' speech has to be one of, if not the, most spectacular pieces of bullshit in the long history of bullshit political statements. I don't need to comment on some of the following extracts from his speech, apart from me being unable to resist noting the outstanding absurdity that if Japan didn’t surrender the A bombs would continue to be dropped by the US until it had wiped out the whole human race, which forced Japan to surrender to save civilisation. Presumably before the US started bombing itself into extinction.

Indeed, we declared war on America and Britain out of our sincere desire to insure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement.

...

the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

...

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

...

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire toward the emancipation of East Asia.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hirohito.htm

But it’s that refusal to face Japan’s responsibility for what it did that continues in similar forms today, which is bloody worrying so long after the event. It’s as if Japan has spent the past sixty odd years constructing and reinforcing its own myth about its benevolent mission in Asia being resisted by the Allies’, largely America’s, brutal determination to obliterate Japan for no good reason, without the slightest understanding that America didn’t actually attack Japan or start the war, regardless of the various factors affecting Japan imposed by the Western powers which impelled it to war.

As for post-war sentiments, I knew people in the 1960s and 1970s who wouldn’t even get into a Japanese car, and they weren’t necessarily those who fought Japan or suffered under Japan as POW’s but relatives of theirs, or just people who shared the same sentiments. A bloke who turned up at the RSL (licensed – i.e. allowed to serve liquor – clubs for returned servicemen in many suburbs and towns - http://www.rsl.org.au/ - don’t know if America has similar) in a Toyota etc – but rarely the same treatment for a German car- could expect a hard time then. That’s diminished greatly by now. Not least because most of the RSL’s are just bloody gaming venues for poker machines.

I remember as a kid in the 1950s being pissed off with the derision visited upon some prized motorised tin - car? - toy I got, because my father’s mates loathed its Japanese origin, and most of them weren’t even returned servicemen. The toy wasn’t very good, to the extent that I can remember, but I don’t recall Australia producing any tin toy cars or whatever it was at the time, which says something about Japan’s ability to rise from the ashes and Australia having false conceit.

Similarly, I knew Jews who wouldn’t get in a Mercedes for similar reasons about the Germans in the 1960s and 1970s. My city, Melbourne, is said to be home to the largest group of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust outside Israel. I’ve lost touch with that aspect, but given the number of prominent Jews in Mercs and BMWs nowadays I think that’s changed too.

We’re also said to be about the second or third largest Greek city outside Athens, so it gets a bit crowded. I think the Greeks will get into any car, as they should because they used to be the taxi drivers who didn’t know where they were going before the Asians took over, and were then displaced by the current lot from Mogadishu or wherever they don’t learn to use street directories or GPS. :D


P.S. Where have you been?

I miss your informed contributions.

You should post more.

[windrider]

Some people drive a car for status, some just use it to get from point A to B, regardless of the flafla$$$. Intersting trend about Mercedes: here in canada, the clientèle for this brand is upper class. (doctors, layers, etc.) But if you go to Paris, France, or French Antilla, the cars are used mostly by taxis. Given the prices they charge, I'm not surprised...

My first car was a used GM Chevy Nova, a great car, solid as a tank, until it was turned into a rust-bucket by the salt we use on roads in winter.
My second car was a Pontiac sunbird, which after a year of spending money to get it fixed, I got tired of and gave away for free... to the condition that It would be off my driveway the following day. Since then (1999), I drive a small Suzuki station wagon, very reliable and agile in traffic, and also very efficient fuel consumption. I would never go back to american cars, ever! Especially that now, I have a 22 ft sea-kayak on top!
If I had to change cars now, there would be almost no car that could accomodate such a large item on the to rails. I would have to buy a truck or a Volvo or a SUV.
And given the price of gaz nowadays, it would be like shooting myself in the foot...

[Nickdfresh]

...most of the latter of whom are informed about the war by such educational cinematic triumphs of stereotypical Hollywood bullshit as Pearl Harbor, which as I type is irritating me on free to air TV with modern computer stuff over modern dialogue and Hollywood drivel which appears to be based on any of a number of 1942 – 45 Hollywood propaganda movies, or possibly a Bruce Willis kills King Kong movie....

What? You mean WWII wasn't a love affair punctuated by some bombing? Next you'll try to tell me that the Eagle Squadron, comprised of US Army Air Corp men, didn't save Britain's arse! LOL What a God-awful shit movie and a waste of a pretty good attack sequence -- save for the post war, modern destroyers in the Harbor being "bombed" and a few other acceptable glitches, and maybe some nice actress T&A.

It was a shameless, pompous attempt at nostalgia that came off very shallow and had glaring factual inaccuracies. I recall seeing an interview with one of the of the arrogant tools, either Jerry Bruckheimer or Mike Bay, as he waxed how seriously he showed he took the project by firing a bunch of extras that were "laughing" in the hospital sequence between takes because they were being disrespectful. Maybe. But I also think his pseudohistory of bullshit and trying to cover everything from the Battle of Britain to the Doolittle raid using the same superhero protagonist as pretty trite and disrespectful. His film was also little more than a shameless rip off of "Tora Tora Tora" and "From Here too Eternity."

BTW, I don't know if you know this, but "Pearl Harbor" was also a big hit in Japan for featuring the Japanese guile and ingenuity in the planning the attacks...

[Flammpanzer]

Some people drive a car for status, some just use it to get from point A to B, regardless of the flafla$$$. Intersting trend about Mercedes: here in canada, the clientèle for this brand is upper class. (doctors, layers, etc.) But if you go to Paris, France, or French Antilla, the cars are used mostly by taxis. Given the prices they charge, I'm not surprised...

yeah, right. here in germany 95% of all taxis are mercedes-benz with diesel engines. but the main reason is that those are tough built cars with very long lasting engines. beside the fact that these autos are too expensive, they are great cars by means of ruggedness and sturdyness.

in a newspaper there was a small hint on a turkish taxi-driver that used a mercedes 200 diesel (model W123) and hat over 3 million metric kilometers on the gauge. I would doubt that a suzuki would have gone so far....;)

jens

[Rising Sun*]

BTW, I don't know if you know this, but "Pearl Harbor" was also a big hit in Japan for featuring the Japanese guile and ingenuity in the planning the attacks...

I didn't know that, but it probably deserved its Japanese audience. From the limited attention I paid to the film, the Japanese subtitles seemed to be closer to the historical record than the rest of the shambolic cinematic farce.

I may be prejudiced as, apart from the endless love story that was even more offensive that a film entitled Love Story which I haven't seen nor has any bloke I know ever seen (well, one bloke, but he reckoned he'd get a root out of it for being sensitive, but she was too upset by the film to deliver :D), a few minor aspects made it a little hard to take. Like Admiral Kimmel being played by an actor about fourteen years old.

John Belushi was more convincing and historically accurate in Spielberg's 1941 about an event that occurred in 1942! At least they knew they were making a comedy. ;)

[Nickdfresh]

I changed this thread to the off-topic forum because, well, people like to talk cars. Specifically, I was reading the comments and thinking what a huge change is happening in the US auto market. In my humble opine, it's for the better. Higher gas prices and the resulting loss from putting their eggs in the SUV/pickup market meant that less was spent on the small cars and resulted in bigger cars with inferior fit-and-finish and quality, or cars that were a generation behind their Euro or Aussie counterparts.

Starting next year Ford, and to an extent GM has already done this, is ditching their segmented market and body styling policies and are going with one world car in almost every segment. This means we'll finally have the same Ford Focus that Europe has in 2010, when they move to the "third generation" Focus. While both continents received the first Focuses in 2001 I believe, Europe received a significant upgrade around 2006 called the 2nd gen, that was skipped in North America in favor of crappy updates. We're also getting some nice small cars (something I've always preferred). And cars such as the Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit, Yaris, and the Mazda 2 that never would have been here in say 1999.

GM is borrowing heavily from its Holden and Opel brands to bring in the Astra and Chevy Cruz here. And change is, as they say, GOOD!

[Nickdfresh]

yeah, right. here in germany 95% of all taxis are mercedes-benz with diesel engines. but the main reason is that those are tough built cars with very long lasting engines. beside the fact that these autos are too expensive, they are great cars by means of ruggedness and sturdyness.

in a newspaper there was a small hint on a turkish taxi-driver that used a mercedes 200 diesel (model W123) and hat over 3 million metric kilometers on the gauge. I would doubt that a suzuki would have gone so far....;)

jens

Don't forget the new Volkswagen Clean Diesel Jetta, also coming to America!

[Rising Sun*]

Anyone mildly interested in cars and a few very lucky blokes who make a living from applying Myth Busters boy fun standards to cars and related stuff has to follow Top Gear. http://www.topgear.com/

[Rising Sun*]

Ford boss quits as job losses mount
August 22, 2008

FORD Australia took another hit today when its president Bill Osborne resigned hours after announcing 350 job cuts in Victoria.

Mr Osborne has been in the job for only six months but has worked at Ford Motor Company for 18 years in engineering and executive roles.

He will relocate to America to take up a chief executive position for an independently-owned publicly listed company, company spokeswoman Sinead McAlary said.

She said the timing of the two events were unrelated.

“He has received an offer that fulfils a career dream for him,” Ms McAlary said.

She would not say which company Mr Osborne was joining but said it was outside the automotive industry.

John Parker, Ford Motor Company executive vice president of Asia Pacific and Africa, said in the statement a replacement would be announced “in due course”.

“Bill has made significant contributions during his career with Ford Motor Company, and we wish him and his family all the best with his future endeavour,” said Mr Parker.

“Ford Australia will continue to play a vital role in the future success of Ford Motor Company and within the Asia Pacific and Africa region, with greater input and alignment across all areas of the business, particularly product development, information technology, purchasing and marketing and sales.”

Mr Osborne was unavailable for comment.

- AAP http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24224004-2702,00.html

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