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Kovalski
11-07-2007, 10:52 AM
I've just watched this first movie about Katyn massacre.
Although Andrzej Wajda was a director, I was afraid that it is way to delicate issue to make a movie. But Wajda made all his best, and succeeded. The movie is really, really good, absolutely worth of watching.
And it is not anti-russian at all, if anyone was afraid ;)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0879843/
http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2007/09/katyn.html

Chevan
11-08-2007, 01:58 AM
And it is not anti-russian at all, if anyone was afraid ;)

I' m still afraid mate:);)

Kovalski
11-08-2007, 02:37 AM
I' m still afraid mate:);)

It wouldn't be you, if you wasn't afraid Chevan ;)

Seriously, I feared that Mr Wajda, as a son of officer who was murdered in Katyn by the NKVD, could make some personal and emotional movie which could be perceived as anti-russian.
But Wajda acted as he always had. Absolutely professional and master.
This movie although is extremely emotional and shocking. There a lot of scenes showing Soviet atrocities. But there are also German atrocities shown too.
As the main aim of this movie was to show the tragedy of families, especially wifes who lost their relatives in Katyn Massacre, it is not a Russian nation who is blamed for that. It is the Soviet state and camrade Stalin, who gave the order to murder polish officers.

There is great scene, when Red Army officer, who shared the flat with a wife of missing polish officer offered her help (after RA entered Poland, it was quite common for RA to accommodate its officers together with a inhabitants). He said that, she could marry him, because as a wife of RA soldier she could save herself as well as her daughter. She refused, because she was married. It didn't matter for him as he was about to leave for finnish front, and he believed he was not going to come back. He didn't want anything from her, he just wanted to save them, as he knew that wifes of polish officers were first to be sent to Siberia. The final moment of that scene is when the NKVD came for her. The officer hidden polish family and drove away the NKVD.

It looks a bit simple and symbolic, but it has a important meaning: the Russians are not blamed for Katyn Massacre, Soviet state and Stalin are.

So Chevan, you don't have to be afraid, really!

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Firefly
11-08-2007, 03:21 AM
Sunds like an interesting movie there. I suppose it is released in Poland only? Mind you I would need subtitles to watch it.

Kovalski
11-08-2007, 04:01 AM
Sunds like an interesting movie there. I suppose it is released in Poland only? Mind you I would need subtitles to watch it.

I assume it will be released on DVD soon (at least in EU). But if you're impatient, I suggest you to do some internet search ;) and then download english subtitles.

Chevan
11-08-2007, 04:57 AM
But Wajda acted as he always had. Absolutely professional and master.
This movie although is extremely emotional and shocking. There a lot of scenes showing Soviet atrocities. But there are also German atrocities shown too.

Oh mate this even worsen then i thought:)
Why this pofessional shows ONLY the bad Russians and GErmans?
May be he had a lack of memory to tell about 40 000+ of soviet prisoners who died in the polish concentrations camps in the 1921-24? Or "human" politic of polonisation in Ukraine?
Or maybe he didn't forget to tell about persecutions and supprestions of Germans population of Danzig untill the 1939 by polish authorities?
I guess this is the cheap propoandic movie in spirit of Cold war and Anti-Germans post-war hysteria.
The tupical nationalistic tend of Poland to blame everybody aroung in personal mistakes.
thou i would like to watch this.

Kovalski
11-08-2007, 05:30 AM
Oh mate this even worsen then i thought:)
Why this pofessional shows ONLY the bad Russians and GErmans?
May be he had a lack of memory to tell about 40 000+ of soviet prisoners who died in the polish concentrations camps in the 1921-24? Or "human" politic of polonisation in Ukraine?
Or maybe he didn't forget to tell about persecutions and supprestions of Germans population of Danzig untill the 1939 by polish authorities?
I guess this is the cheap propoandic movie in spirit of Cold war and Anti-Germans post-war hysteria.
The tupical nationalistic tend of Poland to blame everybody aroung in personal mistakes.
thou i would like to watch this.

Oh boy,
I don't know what to say. You're the best!
I open my heart for you, and that's what I get?:)
Shame on you Chevan!

Chevan
11-08-2007, 06:56 AM
Oh boy,
I don't know what to say. You're the best!
I open my heart for you, and that's what I get?:)
Shame on you Chevan!
Yes its my shame ;)And fate....
BTW i'm quite honest with you my friend.
But i never said i do not understand YOUR point.
Do you understand my?
Could you carry your shame?

Man of Stoat
11-08-2007, 07:25 AM
I love this post-modernist approach to history, in that when discussing really really bad things done by another nation/group you are abjectly criticised if you don't have a full "mea culpa" included about all the slightly bad things that your nation/group has done, and even if you do give such a mea culpa you are criticised for being critical at all because your own country's history is not whiter than a vestal virgin's silken underthings.

It's the academic equivalent of "how dare you criticise Mohammed Atta for murdering thousands of people on 9/11, you stole and broke Emily Parkinson's pencil in fifth grade, so you are hardly blameless"

1PUK
11-08-2007, 04:09 PM
Why this pofessional shows ONLY the bad Russians and GErmans?

Maybe he is concentrating on a subject that affects him most.

Kovalski
01-24-2008, 12:59 AM
"Katyn" nominated for Oscar :)

http://oscar.com/nominees/?pn=detail&nominee=Katyn%20-%20%20Foreign%20Language%20Nominee

Kovalski
01-30-2008, 05:56 AM
A trailer with English subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWPIleYTjB4

Chevan
01-30-2008, 06:35 AM
"Katyn" nominated for Oscar :)


Who was doubted;);)If even moral-ugly "Pianist" was awarded - the Katyn should be also a "greates film" all of times:)

Kovalski
01-30-2008, 05:50 PM
Who was doubted;);)If even moral-ugly "Pianist" was awarded - the Katyn should be also a "greates film" all of times:)

Well, I don't know how to comment your posts...

Chevan, how do you put up with yourself?

Every time you have nothing interesting to say, you try to emphasize your presence by saying something useless or stupid.

Have you seen "Katyn"?
If not, I would suggest you not to write any comments about it. Otherwise you can very easily make fool of yourself. ;)

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Chevan
01-31-2008, 06:42 AM
Every time you have nothing interesting to say, you try to emphasize your presence by saying something useless or stupid.

But at least i do not begin the "clever" Polonophobian threads here when try to emphasize my presentce.
Have you not noticed it still?


Have you seen "Katyn"?
If not, I would suggest you not to write any comments about it. Otherwise you can very easily make fool of yourself. ;)


Still have not seen?
But considering your , the last epithets about Pianist - i might conclude what it about:)
P.S.
Do not worry, i've read about this film- he was presented 17 september - very character data!!! for our relations.
The problem is my frined is not this film ( Wajda was aimed to keep it out of any politic- and he was absolutly right), but unfortunatelly the local polish "patriots" look at this in othe way. In fact this film will used to rise the anti-russian feeling in Poland.
With that , i congradulate you:)

Kovalski
01-31-2008, 03:40 PM
But at least i do not begin the "clever" Polonophobian threads here when try to emphasize my presentce.
Have you not noticed it still?


Talking about historical facts which do not fit your vision of Russia is not "clever" Polonophobian . It is just about truth.



Do not worry, i've read about this film- he was presented 17 september - very character data!!! for our relations.


Poles didn't choose that date.




The problem is my frined is not this film ( Wajda was aimed to keep it out of any politic- and he was absolutly right), but unfortunatelly the local polish "patriots" look at this in othe way. In fact this film will used to rise the anti-russian feeling in Poland.
With that , i congradulate you:)

The REAL problem mate is your attitude towards any historical facts which expose Soviet genocides.
You've got some Post Traumatic Memory Disorder - whenever somebody writes, talks or even slightly mentions Soviet crimes - you call his actions anti-russian.
You still forgot, that Russia is not a center of the world, and that not all people of the world, not a half of them, nor even a tiny party of them would believe Soviet "version" of history - a version which you still keep carrying.

By the way, I think you got some problem with your "ego" as well. Do you really think that "Katyn" was "used to rise the anti-russian feeling in Poland"?
Where have you heard or read that?
Maybe on one of russian nationalist forums?
Because I really doubt that any professional russian journalist would sign below such rubbish.
I assume that some people in Russia create such nonsenses to keep some anti-polish histeria. And you are just one of their victims.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

eolithic
02-02-2008, 11:55 PM
hmmmm !! must watch it

Chevan
02-04-2008, 03:34 AM
Talking about historical facts which do not fit your vision of Russia is not "clever" Polonophobian . It is just about truth.

Not just about truth mate , but also about peoples relations.
I/m not a polanophobe - you know it. However the constant polish hostile ctitic toward russia is could irritate up anyone finaly.
And my "vison of Russia" is not just my personal.The most of young people in here think so today.The good national proudness is not the exclusive matter of Poles. SO the favorite pose of POland as a victims of their agressive neighbours - is nothing but theory of own polish nationalists that is not required for others.
Have to use it my friend. And have to admit it


Poles didn't choose that date.

No . The polses SPECIALLY chosed this date for the presentation of film.
And if you think we are blind to notice it- this is wrong.This fact just support the thought to use this film in political aims.


The REAL problem mate is your attitude towards any historical facts which expose Soviet genocides.
You've got some Post Traumatic Memory Disorder - whenever somebody writes, talks or even slightly mentions Soviet crimes - you call his actions anti-russian.

No my friend.
I have no troubles with my memory disorber at this moment. This period has passed in the end of 1990yy.
Tht's enought were traumatic in past.
Today the situation has radically changed. You still did not see it, sadly.
The so called "Soviets crimes" has little to the Polish anti-russian feeling that was started from Russian imperial times indeed.
But the Soviet crimes used today by the polish politicans very well:)



You still forgot, that Russia is not a center of the world, and that not all people of the world, not a half of them, nor even a tiny party of them would believe Soviet "version" of history - a version which you still keep carrying.

Centre of the World?
Mate i even did not guess that Poles make the Katyn as the central world problem:)
Sure Russia is not a centre of the World- the Poland is centre - every polish kid know it:)
And btw why you think that world would believe in the Polish versionof of history?


By the way, I think you got some problem with your "ego" as well. Do you really think that "Katyn" was "used to rise the anti-russian feeling in Poland"?
Where have you heard or read that?
I know it mate.
Do not need to be the genious to understand that 17 sept is the political date, right


Maybe on one of russian nationalist forums?
No no. the Nationalist forums show the other things, that will very unpleasant for you.
I do not use the russian national point specially. COz i'm a soft gentle man:)I do not like the ideas of national superiority.
Especially with you.


Because I really doubt that any professional russian journalist would sign below such rubbish.
I assume that some people in Russia create such nonsenses to keep some anti-polish histeria. And you are just one of their victims.

I/m a victims of your threads:)
But not a somebody oppinion.
And do not forget -the russia did not start this hysteria. Today our nationalist actually try to use the ancient polish hostility as the reason of equivalent actions.
But this is not get support in society.

Kovalski
02-05-2008, 02:57 PM
Not just about truth mate , but also about peoples relations.
I/m not a polanophobe - you know it. However the constant polish hostile ctitic toward russia is could irritate up anyone finaly.
And my "vison of Russia" is not just my personal.The most of young people in here think so today.The good national proudness is not the exclusive matter of Poles. SO the favorite pose of POland as a victims of their agressive neighbours - is nothing but theory of own polish nationalists that is not required for others.
Have to use it my friend. And have to admit it

In next post you'll write that Poland provoked Nazi Germany and USSR - in effect they in acted of self-defence they invaded Poland in 1939.



No . The polses SPECIALLY chosed this date for the presentation of film.
And if you think we are blind to notice it- this is wrong.This fact just support the thought to use this film in political aims.


I meant that it was Stalin who chosen the date of 17th of September 1939 to attack Poland.
So it is obvious that for Poles the date of 17th of September is the best for honouring the victims of Soviet atrocities.
By the way, who do you think you are to tell Poles that it is a bad date for presentation of "Katyn"?
Chevan, USSR is dead. We don't listen to Moscow anymore. Please, realize it :)



Centre of the World?
Mate i even did not guess that Poles make the Katyn as the central world problem:)
Sure Russia is not a centre of the World- the Poland is centre - every polish kid know it:)
And btw why you think that world would believe in the Polish versionof of history?


Why? It's simple :)
Because it is truth.
We don't need to lie, we don't need to keep our archives closed, we don't need to make absolutely stupid theories in order to divert world's attention from obvious Soviet crimes.
We just can tell our story. And Wajda in fact did it.




No no. the Nationalist forums show the other things, that will very unpleasant for you.
I do not use the russian national point specially. COz i'm a soft gentle man:)I do not like the ideas of national superiority.
Especially with you.


Well, that's a true reason to be proud, Chevan...



I/m a victims of your threads:)
But not a somebody oppinion.
And do not forget -the russia did not start this hysteria. Today our nationalist actually try to use the ancient polish hostility as the reason of equivalent actions.
But this is not get support in society.

I hope I didn't harm you too seriously ;)

I wouldn't call it "hysteria" - rather a need of objective discussion which would uncovered all the tragic events once for all. Without lying, negation of facts, hiding evidences and way to emotional language - for both sides, polish and russian.

You mean the movie "1612"? I'm about to watch it.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

1PUK
02-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Sunds like an interesting movie there. I suppose it is released in Poland only? Mind you I would need subtitles to watch it.

Being released on DVD in Poland on 21st February. It will have English subtitles.

Don't know were it can be purchased in the UK yet though.

Chevan
02-06-2008, 12:59 AM
In next post you'll write that Poland provoked Nazi Germany and USSR - in effect they in acted of self-defence they invaded Poland in 1939.

How have you guessed:);)?


I meant that it was Stalin who chosen the date of 17th of September 1939 to attack Poland.
So it is obvious that for Poles the date of 17th of September is the best for honouring the victims of Soviet atrocities.

We as i said this date is just pure POLITICAL.
Besides why do not call he date of 17 sept s date of atrocities?
As i know the Polis army was fully defeated till tis date, and soxviet ws aimed take back the lands of Western Ukraine and Belorussia?
DO you realize it?
Why you still blame the Soviet imperial ambitions , but deny the Polish OWN imerialism?
SO date 17 sept has NO relation to the Polish victims - this could be the character date for Ukraine, but not for Poland.


By the way, who do you think you are to tell Poles that it is a bad date for presentation of "Katyn"?
Chevan, USSR is dead. We don't listen to Moscow anymore. Please, realize it :)

I know it perfectly. You listen ONLY Washington today. And this bother me , believe it.The polish Kachinsky's policy toward the Russia was disgusting.Even the old polish TV films was banned.
I tell you not about "whom Poland should listen", but elementary mutual respect it needed for the all of us.


Why? It's simple :)
Because it is truth.

So why this "truth" has a lot of logical mistakes and documental disclaimers?
WHay the germans steel shells were found out in mass graves that has been started for production only in the summer 1940?
And What about evidence of poples who saw the Polish prisoners in spring-summer 1941 in a building of road near the Katyn forest?
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=7
There a lot of thing to discuss here, so i have to say that the "truth" is more deeper than seems.
I personally never deny that this could be the NKVD who shoted the poles. Very likely, thay killed a much more peoples especially during the Red mass terror.


We don't need to lie, we don't need to keep our archives closed, we don't need to make absolutely stupid theories in order to divert world's attention from obvious Soviet crimes.
We just can tell our story. And Wajda in fact did it.
So why Waida do not craet the films about victims of famine and cruel treating in Polish comcentrations camps in 1920-21?
There were died about 18 000 of pows( according ONLY polish datas).
So should we, russians, every year remind the Poles about this Crime?


Well, that's a true reason to be proud, Chevan...
This is not proudness. I just still hope to visit the Poland in future:)


I hope I didn't harm you too seriously ;)

I wouldn't call it "hysteria" - rather a need of objective discussion which would uncovered all the tragic events once for all. Without lying, negation of facts, hiding evidences and way to emotional language - for both sides, polish and russian.

You mean the movie "1612"? I'm about to watch it.


No i don't mean the 1612 and even do not with to watch it.

Kovalski
02-08-2008, 03:58 PM
How have you guessed:);)?


I know you long enough. :D:D:D



We as i said this date is just pure POLITICAL.
Besides why do not call he date of 17 sept s date of atrocities?
As i know the Polis army was fully defeated till tis date, and soxviet ws aimed take back the lands of Western Ukraine and Belorussia?
DO you realize it?
Why you still blame the Soviet imperial ambitions , but deny the Polish OWN imerialism?


Honouring a victims of Soviets is a political act aimed against Russia?
Following your logic, Poles (as well as other European nations), should consider a removal of Red Army cemeteries from their soil, because these monuments and graves honour the communist ideology, which is officially forbidden by polish constitution.
I assume that none of us would ever like to see it happening.




SO date 17 sept has NO relation to the Polish victims - this could be the character date for Ukraine, but not for Poland.


Chevan, whenever you like it or not, USSR on 17th September 1939 invaded an independent state, which eastern territories were given to Poland according to Riga Treaty in 1921, where Soviet Russia agreed for this conditions after being defeated by Poland.
I know you would like to erase these facts from history books, but it is impossible mate.



I know it perfectly. You listen ONLY Washington today. And this bother me , believe it.


Is this what bother so much?
Or maybe a fact that Poles, as the rest of Eastern Europe, don't listen to Russia anymore?



The polish Kachinsky's policy toward the Russia was disgusting.Even the old polish TV films was banned.

True. I hope that today's visit of Polish PM (hey, we have a new one! since November! His name's Tusk!) to Moscow changes something.



I tell you not about "whom Poland should listen", but elementary mutual respect it needed for the all of us.

I aboslutely agree with you.




I personally never deny that this could be the NKVD who shoted the poles. Very likely, thay killed a much more peoples especially during the Red mass terror.


Still there is hope!!! Hallelujah! ;)



So why Waida do not craet the films about victims of famine and cruel treating in Polish comcentrations camps in 1920-21?
There were died about 18 000 of pows( according ONLY polish datas).


Because he wanted to make a movie about Katyn, mate.
Maybe you should ask the same question Oliver Stone, Ridley Scott, David Lynch and others :)

Do you have any proofs that it was "crime" Chevan?
And why Soviets never asked about these POWs before 1939???
Why this case was brought to a daylight olny after Gorbachev admitted that Soviets had murdered polish officers in 1940?

I'm not denying anything. But if you making accusations, be prepared to show the proofs.

By the way, the conditions in which Russian POWs were held in Poland 1920/21 were very similar to conditions of Soviet camps for Polish POWs at the same time.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Chevan
02-11-2008, 02:17 AM
I know you long enough. :D:D:D

Oh that's true ....:)


Honouring a victims of Soviets is a political act aimed against Russia?
Following your logic, Poles (as well as other European nations), should consider a removal of Red Army cemeteries from their soil, because these monuments and graves honour the communist ideology, which is officially forbidden by polish constitution.

Well firstly those monuments and graves honour the memory of the perished 600 000 of soviet soldiers ( not just russians).
Secondary - you are wrong about other European nations- the GErmans still saved most of monuments and care about EVERY grave of Soviet soldiers.
In Chech republic there also were recently a report on TV whem Putin with Chech president have layed the wreath at the Soviet monument in Prague ( that is also a mass grave of Soviet soldiers).
I do not speak about Belorussia.
So you please do not spread the rusofobia at the other nation:)
The fact that the polish authoritie removed all the monuments is pretty well tells about Polish relation to us .
I 'm not deny the polish right to do what they want- i just notice that they absolutly ignore the our mutual interests.


Chevan, whenever you like it or not, USSR on 17th September 1939 invaded an independent state, which eastern territories were given to Poland according to Riga Treaty in 1921, where Soviet Russia agreed for this conditions after being defeated by Poland.
I know you would like to erase these facts from history books, but it is impossible mate.

Oh Kovalski , i did not wish to erase those fact from history books - to the contrast - i wish to remind it again.
i din't guess about you love at the bolshevicks who signed the Riga Treaty:)
Where it come from?
You see - poles think that Bolshevics are good when they signed the treaty according that Poles have got the territiries with non-polish majiority population.
But the other bolshevick Stalin - who joined those territorier back to Ukraine and Belorussia - is bad.:)
I just wonder of polish logic:)


Is this what bother so much?
Or maybe a fact that Poles, as the rest of Eastern Europe, don't listen to Russia anymore?

To be honest, i worry about sad fact that the rest of Eastern Europe could not be really independent mentally.
The problem is not that they don't listem Russia- the problem is that they couldn't don't listen any one.
Every time when they release e from foreign influence - they immediatelly joined in other one.
What was the need to join Poland in NATO mate?
Who does treat for you- Iran or Nothern Korea?:)


True. I hope that today's visit of Polish PM (hey, we have a new one! since November! His name's Tusk!) to Moscow changes something.

Oh it's amazing- you have the new one PM:)
Mabe you have the "new one" relation toward Russia?


I aboslutely agree with you.
Still there is hope!!! Hallelujah! ;)

Hope never dies:)


Because he wanted to make a movie about Katyn, mate.
Maybe you should ask the same question Oliver Stone, Ridley Scott, David Lynch and others :)

What i have to ask the Oliver Stone about?
Why the steel sheels were found in the Katyn?
If even you do not know why.


Do you have any proofs that it was "crime" Chevan?

Kovalski- who am i in your mind.
Troll who speaks unconfirmed fary talls?
Sure i have a sources that claim my point of view.


And why Soviets never asked about these POWs before 1939???

And why soviets never told about Katun before 1989?


Why this case was brought to a daylight olny after Gorbachev admitted that Soviets had murdered polish officers in 1940?

And why we should keep silence about that?
If the Soviets hided the truth about fate of russian POWs on the political reasons- why we should deny it today?:)


I'm not denying anything. But if you making accusations, be prepared to show the proofs.

No you deny the any facts that beat the polish version of Katyn.
This is strange.
And this is not me who make the accusation about treatment of POWs in Poland.
This was the American oragisation "Union of christian Young" that inspected the concentration camp in Tuhola and found out the rought violations of the rules of holding the prisoners in 1921.
The fact that Polish authorities knew about that - does not change that it caused the mass death of POWs.


By the way, the conditions in which Russian POWs were held in Poland 1920/21 were very similar to conditions of Soviet camps for Polish POWs at the same time.

There is no any documents that tells about that.
If you could find it - please.
The difference of Soviet relation to the prisoners was that the soviet look at them as for the brother "working class elements" that was forced to fight against Red Army.
The Poles look at that from the pure nationalistic positions- anti-russian fight.
Add to that the ancient polish rusophobia- and as the resault the cruel treatment of POWs is well explained.

Panzerknacker
02-11-2008, 08:02 PM
With your line of thinking every movie about the holocaust must be be made because the "germanophobia".

The word "troll" comes to me very naturally after reading some here, God, save me . :rolleyes:

I am looking for the movie by the way, by all the "channels" you know what I mean.

Chevan
02-13-2008, 04:41 AM
The word "troll" comes to me very naturally after reading some here, God, save me . :rolleyes:


You mean the Malvinas/Folkland thread in this forum:):)
Absolutly agree......:)

Panzerknacker
02-13-2008, 08:15 PM
??

Sorry but I dont follow you.

Kovalski
02-16-2008, 09:40 PM
Secondary - you are wrong about other European nations- the GErmans still saved most of monuments and care about EVERY grave of Soviet soldiers.
In Chech republic there also were recently a report on TV whem Putin with Chech president have layed the wreath at the Soviet monument in Prague ( that is also a mass grave of Soviet soldiers).
I do not speak about Belorussia.
So you please do not spread the rusofobia at the other nation:)

You seem not to remember about Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Do they love Soviet Union so much?



The fact that the polish authoritie removed all the monuments is pretty well tells about Polish relation to us .
I 'm not deny the polish right to do what they want- i just notice that they absolutly ignore the our mutual interests.

Now I got you :)
What monuments? When have they been removed? Where did you find an info about it?
NONE of these monuments was removed. You are wrong, again :)



Oh Kovalski , i did not wish to erase those fact from history books - to the contrast - i wish to remind it again.
i din't guess about you love at the bolshevicks who signed the Riga Treaty:)
Where it come from?
You see - poles think that Bolshevics are good when they signed the treaty according that Poles have got the territiries with non-polish majiority population.
But the other bolshevick Stalin - who joined those territorier back to Ukraine and Belorussia - is bad.:)
I just wonder of polish logic:)

Have you ever heard about "international law"???
"Pacta sund servanta" gives you a clue?
The "treaty" is being concluded by the at least two sides - and is meant to be RESPECTED by those sides.

No matter who lived on these territories, because:
Soviet Russia signed the Riga Treaty = Soviet Russia accepted the Riga Treaty.

So, if I were you I would study the Soviet logic (if such logic ever existed) :)
You can find a lot of surprises there.



To be honest, i worry about sad fact that the rest of Eastern Europe could not be really independent mentally.
The problem is not that they don't listem Russia- the problem is that they couldn't don't listen any one.
Every time when they release e from foreign influence - they immediatelly joined in other one.
What was the need to join Poland in NATO mate?
Who does treat for you- Iran or Nothern Korea?:)


Well mate, what makes you competent to evaluate East European nations' "mental independence"???
Once again, focus on Soviet/Russian mentality (there is a lot to discuss), rather than try to say anything about other nations' mentality.
It is ironic that you try to discuss it with me :)

Better give up with these "theories" about "mental independence".



Oh it's amazing- you have the new one PM:)
Mabe you have the "new one" relation toward Russia?

Ignorance will lead you nowhere Chevan.




Kovalski- who am i in your mind.
Troll who speaks unconfirmed fary talls?

Well, sort of... :)




And why soviets never told about Katun before 1989?

Are you joking mate??????
Now I have to explain to you why Soviets wanted to hide their crimes???????



And why we should keep silence about that?
If the Soviets hided the truth about fate of russian POWs on the political reasons- why we should deny it today?:)

What political reasons did Soviets have?????



And this is not me who make the accusation about treatment of POWs in Poland.
This was the American oragisation "Union of christian Young" that inspected the concentration camp in Tuhola and found out the rought violations of the rules of holding the prisoners in 1921.
The fact that Polish authorities knew about that - does not change that it caused the mass death of POWs.

As I see it, Russians try to put on the same level the case of Soviet POWs in Poland and Katyn Genocide.
But my friend, there is one big difference between these cases:
the massacre of Polish officers was a deliberate act of Soviet state. And you cannot say nothing similar about Soviet POWs.
Nobody wanted to murder them because they were Russians.



The difference of Soviet relation to the prisoners was that the soviet look at them as for the brother "working class elements" that was forced to fight against Red Army.

Nonsense!
It was all about getting rid of Poles and anything that was polish. Nothing about some "working class alliance" mumble.



The Poles look at that from the pure nationalistic positions- anti-russian fight.
Add to that the ancient polish rusophobia- and as the resault the cruel treatment of POWs is well explained.

Well, Poles didn't want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don't be surprised that it was anti-russian.

"Ancient polish rusophobia"????
And you ask me if I think about you as a some "Troll who speaks unconfirmed fairy tales"?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Egorka
02-17-2008, 01:07 PM
"Pacta sund servanta" gives you a clue?
The "treaty" is being concluded by the at least two sides - and is meant to be RESPECTED by those sides.Kovalski,
only if if it was so simple about respecting the traties...


Well, Poles didn't want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don't be surprised that it was anti-russian.
"Marched to Warsaw".
Are you speaking of 1939 or 1944?


And you ask me if I think about you as a some "Troll who speaks unconfirmed fairy tales"?
Comme on, if you think Chevan is a troll then ytou have not seen too many of them.

Kovalski
02-17-2008, 06:55 PM
Kovalski,
only if if it was so simple about respecting the traties...


You're right Igor.
Unfortunately, it almost never was.



"Marched to Warsaw".
Are you speaking of 1939 or 1944?

Marched on Warsaw, not "to Warsaw".
And I was talking about 1920.



Comme on, if you think Chevan is a troll then ytou have not seen too many of them.
I was just joking... ;)

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

P.S. I've got at least two trolls at work. Chevan doesn't look and behave like them :)

Egorka
02-19-2008, 08:17 AM
Marched on Warsaw, not "to Warsaw".
And I was talking about 1920.
andWell, Poles didn't want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don't be surprised that it was anti-russian.

OK. I see.

Kovalski, you have to realise that there was practicaly nothing about russian in RKKA in 1920. It was completely soaked in bolshevik mentality, which was ment to get rid of everything traditional and national.
I understand that for Poles it did not make much difference back then, but it does make difference now when learning about history.

Chevan
02-20-2008, 01:23 AM
You seem not to remember about Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Do they love Soviet Union so much?

Are you about parades of Waffen SS there?
Sure they love SU not so much as Nazy:)
However is it not strange that GEmrnans themself behave more polite toward the histroy?


Now I got you :)
What monuments? When have they been removed? Where did you find an info about it?
NONE of these monuments was removed. You are wrong, again :)

Have you got me?:)
None of those monuments while have not moved.
But .. the polish authorities not leave the idea to move it soon in future
Find sources in polish youself.I have russian one


Have you ever heard about "international law"???
"Pacta sund servanta" gives you a clue?
The "treaty" is being concluded by the at least two sides - and is meant to be RESPECTED by those sides.

h mate , but international law did force to sign the threaty with Bolshevicks Murders who killed so much own peoples, right?
Or in you mind if the killed NON-poles in the 1917-20 - this mean they are not so bad?And Poland could have deeds with them?


No matter who lived on these territories, because:
Soviet Russia signed the Riga Treaty = Soviet Russia accepted the Riga Treaty.

Oh really no matter who lived on those territories from the ancient time:)
Egorka we have one more ally in fight agains finnish guys- according the our friend this is not matter who lived in KArelia . If it was Russian territiria since ancient time- finns have no right for Karealia
Good mate Kovalski- i knew you are hidden russian friend ;)
BTW i will never tell about German Upper Silesia that Poles took for themself after ww2:)
Let's admit that it was threaty with Germans according mutual polish German will:)


So, if I were you I would study the Soviet logic (if such logic ever existed) :)
You can find a lot of surprises there.

But mate - you have admited the Polish Communist Logic,right.When the poles colloborated with Soviets pretty much. Even the Polish 1 and 2 army fight alongside with Soviets.
according your logic the Soviet Polish Logic was also good coz it was Polish too?:)


Well mate, what makes you competent to evaluate East European nations' "mental independence"???

And what makes the East Europeans act in such anti-russian way today?
Have only they the EXCLUSIVE right to critisize the Russia for the Soviet deeds?


Once again, focus on Soviet/Russian mentality (there is a lot to discuss), rather than try to say anything about other nations' mentality.

But you even do not wish to notice the close CONNECTION of things
Or you thing we should look as the Poland falls down into antir-russian hysteria deeper?


It is ironic that you try to discuss it with me :)

And with whom i should discuss here the problems of Polish Menthality?With Nickdfresh?:)
You as the sitizen of Polans - the one of the central East European state , is it not?


Better give up with these "theories" about "mental independence".

So whay those 'theories" are exactly confirmed by practice?


Ignorance will lead you nowhere Chevan.

As and you Kovalski, but is this a reason to keep silence about actual problems?
Or hold the pose that everything is OK?


Well, sort of... :)

So why did you discuss the questions entire thread with troll?:)
May be you worth him:)


Are you joking mate??????
Now I have to explain to you why Soviets wanted to hide their crimes???????

And Why soviets wanted to hide the Polish crimes?
Why soviets hided the henocide in Volun?
YOu are wrong if you think that the soviets cover ONLY russians crimes.


As I see it, Russians try to put on the same level the case of Soviet POWs in Poland and Katyn Genocide.
But my friend, there is one big difference between these cases:
the massacre of Polish officers was a deliberate act of Soviet state. And you cannot say nothing similar about Soviet POWs.

But what are you talking about BIG differenceif after the famine and beating ( and also lack of elementary medical service) were perished about the same figure peoples like in Katyn?
They all died JUST for few mounth of winter 1920-21.
In you mind this is BIG differnce?
I do not think so, as well as the relatives of perished soldiers.
According you logic the Jews who died in Nazy Concentration Camps from the unhuman treating and famine were more lucky than that ones who were shoted in public NAzy mass murderings like in Kiev?


Nobody wanted to murder them because they were Russians.

Oh sure mate , you right...
The official polish propoganda called them as the Jewih-Bolshevics subhuman.
look at the polish poster of 1920
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Bij_Bolszewika.jpg/260px-Bij_Bolszewika.jpg
Does it nothing remind you?:)


Nonsense!
It was all about getting rid of Poles and anything that was polish. Nothing about some "working class alliance" mumble.

What do you mean as getting rid of Poles?


Well, Poles didn't want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don't be surprised that it was anti-russian.

Oh poor Poles , they did not marhced on Moscow.
But they marched on Kiev and Minsk very well in 1920:)
Do you forget it mate?


"Ancient polish rusophobia"????
And you ask me if I think about you as a some "Troll who speaks unconfirmed fairy tales"?

I ask you coz you ONLY disccus with troll Chevan:)

1PUK
03-19-2008, 03:26 PM
http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/culture/?id=78355

Andrzej Wajda’s feature film Katyn about the killing by the Soviet NKVD police of Polish officers in 1940 has been shown in Moscow amid fevered scenes to get tickets.

The 1100-seat Cinema House was packed to capacity, with many people standing along the walls and a crowd of cinema fans unsuccessfully trying to enter the hall.

..........................

Kovalski
03-19-2008, 07:39 PM
So maybe this movie is not that bad Chevan, and your hair will not turn white if you watch it.

Jan Fiala
03-29-2008, 05:18 AM
Chevan, thruth can be unpleasant...
I saw that film, it's not anti-russian. De facto it's feature document. Document, which shows cruel reality of world war 2 and post war situation. If you think it's anti-russian because it's about Katyn massacre, it would be also anti-german, because there are evil German enemies. :roll:
If it would be document about german holocaust, would be it antigerman?

Panzerknacker
03-29-2008, 10:01 AM
The only problem here is that some russians still believe in the fairy tale that they didnt do it, but they did, the NKVD kill the polish officers, tragic and simple.

Nearly 70 years after is time to stop messing around and accept that fact.:rolleyes:

Jan Fiala
03-29-2008, 10:54 AM
I am afraid Putin goes all out to conceal that fact.

Grot
04-09-2008, 01:01 PM
Does anyone know who sells this film that will ship to the United States? I have tried other sources but I had audio problems.

Grot
04-10-2008, 07:39 PM
I found a copy on ebay. In case anyone is interested the seller has another copy available:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260229109655

1PUK
04-16-2008, 02:23 PM
Katyn - UK Premiere

22nd April

http://www.kinoteka.org.uk/event/13

1PUK
04-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Katyn showing in the US

http://www.tribecafilmfestival.org/filmguide/Katyn.html

Stasha
05-08-2008, 09:59 AM
Hello group this is my first post and thanks for having me. Russia knows who is responsable for "Katyn".

Also yet to be told is the 1.7 million taken from "Kresy" to be used as slaves and die on "Stalin's orders. This was where the Polish militry reserve were given property in 1920 for their front line battle that claimed the land. Today this is know as Ukraine.

Many were shot when they came in the night to get the men and their families as they slept. Many more lie along the tracks on the way to Siberia. Within the camps of Siberia death was seen as a blessing. This blessing came to a large amount.

What gave the family's a chance at life was when Nazi's attacked Soviets. All of a sudden Stalin relised he needed the very people he was killing off. We were given amnesty to help Soviets that Nazi's were attacking.

After the betrayal and Stalin taking over Poland, the people of Poland could not even speak of the crimes commited by Soviets. "Communist Poland" was forced to live in silence until 1989 when they at last were free of Soviet powers. Even after the war thousands of Polish people were killed by ruling powers.

With the release of "Katyn" more and more of the "forgotten Polish" are coming to light. Why were the real victim's, Poland's people left out of the "Holocaust"? History as we teach in the USA is distored and written in partial truths.

Stalin's crimes and Catholic victims (the majority) are not given a place in the United States Holocaust Memorial Musuem in Washington, DC. USHMM.org Holocaust has taken the definition and tweaked it just so, leaving the victims out.

Just recently the EU asked that Russia be held responsable for the claims of the families taken from Kresy. A deadline of Dec. 2008 is set in Poland to have your claim in. Families taken from their estates by Soviets starting Feb. 10, 1940 shall be reimbursed for the homes. Yesterdays hero's that lost their lives, loved ones and country's at last shall be placed in history.

I look forward to hearing and seeing photo's,

Carol Celinska Dove, USA

Kato
05-08-2008, 10:34 AM
Also yet to be told is the 1.7 million taken from "Kresy" to be used as slaves and die on "Stalin's orders. This was where the Polish militry reserve were given property in 1920 for their front line battle that claimed the land. Today this is know as Ukraine.

"Kresy" were Belarusian and Ukrainian ethnic territories occupied by Poles.

The figure 1.7 million Poles form Kresy sent to Siberia is obviously unrealistic. The bulk of so-called Soviet "jastrebki" that fought on behalf of the Soviets against local Ukrainain population were made up of Poles, communistic authorities did not face any organized resistance in Poland itself, Armija Krajowa just self-dissolved at the order of communists

Kato
05-08-2008, 10:50 AM
After the betrayal and Stalin taking over Poland, the people of Poland could not even speak of the crimes commited by Soviets.

What betrayal?



With the release of "Katyn" more and more of the "forgotten Polish" are coming to light. Why were the real victim's, Poland's people left out of the "Holocaust"?

Evidently because Poles did not manage to turn into jews in time.


History as we teach in the USA is distored and written in partial truths.
Stalin's crimes and Catholic victims (the majority) are not given a place in the United States Holocaust Memorial Musuem in Washington, DC. USHMM.org Holocaust has taken the definition and tweaked it just so, leaving the victims out.

What an obcessive desire to resemble jews.

Stasha
05-08-2008, 11:22 AM
What betrayal?

If you recall Poland was fighting to keep Poland, betrayal was felt when Britian did not honor aggreement and help when Nazi's attacked, and then when we were sold out to the Soviet's.




Evidently because Poles did not manage to turn into jews in time.

LOL, One thing Polish would not do is turn their backs on religion.



What an obcessive desire to resemble jews.

It's really simple I want history to be the truth.

Stasha
05-08-2008, 11:43 AM
"Kresy" were Belarusian and Ukrainian ethnic territories occupied by Poles.

The figure 1.7 million Poles form Kresy sent to Siberia is obviously unrealistic. The bulk of so-called Soviet "jastrebki" that fought on behalf of the Soviets against local Ukrainain population were made up of Poles, communistic authorities did not face any organized resistance in Poland itself, Armija Krajowa just self-dissolved at the order of communists

No this was Poland. We were not simply "occupied". You are right the number is much to low, Russia is still releasing the numbers. If you have viewed "Katyn" you will see where our active fighters ended up, the ones that remained unarmed living with their families in eastern Poland "Kresy", were gather up in the night. A knock on the door and Jewish, Ukrainian and armed Soviet took them to cattle cars, on "Stalins" orders. Ukrainan and Jewish split the property and estates our families built.

Anders Army known as Poland's Home Army was not fighting for "Soviets" and did not attack Ukraine, they were in it to regain Poland. If you are referring to 1941 in Ukraine, here's your link.

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm

If you recall Stalin and Hitler had a plan, wipe out Poland and split Poland. Well look who ended up with Poland. After the war the majority of military from Poland had to go to another country as Stalin labled them enimies of the State. Organized resistance, are you kidding please read up on the loss of life due to the condition of the Polish when amnesty was granted.

Egorka
05-08-2008, 02:59 PM
It's really simple I want history to be the truth.
Be careful what you wish. Can you handle the truth?
Here a tip fpr you:

1. Institute of National Remembrance, Warszawa POLAND:

"At the same time the Soviet authorities were carrying out four major deportation operations, which resulted in roughly 320,000 Polish citizens were relocated deeply into the USSR." (http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=en&dzial=2&id=275&search=39)

2. Karta Center Foundation in Warsaw (http://www.karta.org.pl/default.asp?jezyk=2):
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/428009665_0ceef3410d_o.gif

And welcome to the forum!

Stasha
05-08-2008, 06:19 PM
QUOTE]And welcome to the forum![/QUOTE]

Thank you, It is four pages long is it alright to add this much information? I could also email you how this number came about.

Egorka
05-09-2008, 03:49 AM
And welcome to the forum!

Thank you, It is four pages long is it alright to add this much information? I could also email you how this number came about.
What is four pages long?
The official Polish numbers for the 1939-1941 deportion is 320.000 people of all ages and genders. The rest is speculation.

BTW: You do not read Polish, do you?

Stasha
05-09-2008, 08:12 AM
How we came up with this 1.7 million. You are right about speculation. What we have done is taken numbers prior to deportation, differant reports, books that have studied this area. IMO the number is a low estimite. Below is something I recieved this AM and have not even read. I copied it as you see I am not alone in this number.

No I do not read Polish. I wish now I did.

The Polish Community in Britain
Post-war Polish migration to Britain resulted predominantly from the dual German and
Russian occupations of Poland in 1939, a traumatic episode in Polish history that is well
documented.3 A significant number of those Poles who ended up in Britain served in
the Polish army throughout the war, and eventually fought under British command,
contributing in particular to the Battle of Britain and intelligence advances. The other
major ‘route’ to Britain involved those who had originated from eastern Poland and
were part of the 1.7 million Poles who experienced forced deportation to Siberia by
Russian troops in 1940.4 Eventually the survivors were released after an amnesty with
the Russian government in 1941, and those of suitable age and fitness were drafted into
the Second Polish Corps under General Anders. The remaining civilians spent the rest
of the war in Polish Red Cross transit camps throughout India, Africa and the Middle
East. At the end of the war, as Poland fell to communism and the eastern territories
were lost to Russia, it became clear to the Polish forces and refugees abroad that a
return to the homeland was unrealistic, and that staying in Britain was one of the only
viable options. As a result, by 1951 the Polish population in Britain had risen from
44,642 in 1931 to 162,339.5

3 See particularly N. Davies, Heart of Europe - A Short History of Poland, Oxford: Oxford University Press,
1984.
4 The exact number is contested and will never be known - see K. Sword, Deportation and Exile - Poles in
the Soviet Union, 1939-48, 2nd ed., Basingstoke: Macmillan, 1996, pp. 25-7.
5 See C. Holmes, John Bull’s Island - Immigration and British Society 1871-1971, Basingstoke: Macmillan,
1988, pp. 168, 211-212.
6 Regional figures taken from J. Zubrzycki, Polish Immigrants in Britain, The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff,
1956, pp. 69-70. Leicestershire figures found in 1951 Census Report, Leicestershire.
7 Figures taken from 1961 Census Report, Leicestershire and 1991 Census Report, Leicestershire.
8 Figure taken from D. Nash & D. Reader (eds.), Leicester in the Twentieth Century, Stroud: Alan Strutton,
1993, p. 187. A good recent study of Leicester’s African Caribbean population can be found in L. Chessum,
From Immigrants to Ethnic Minority- Making black community in Britain, Aldershot: Ashgate, 2000.

http://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/2002/burrell2002-3.pdf

Kato
05-09-2008, 08:22 AM
No this was Poland. We were not simply "occupied". You are right the number is much to low, Russia is still releasing the numbers. If you have viewed "Katyn" you will see where our active fighters ended up, the ones that remained unarmed living with their families in eastern Poland "Kresy", were gather up in the night.

You wrote that "This was where the Polish militry reserve were given property in 1920" that is most of the lands and property of these Poles were taken from local Ukrainians, Belarusians and transferred to Poles in the 1920-30s.

And there was almost no anti-Soviet fighters killed in Katyn as there was almost zero resistance to the Soviet invasion on behalf of the Polish Army in 1939.
There were mainly victims of political purge who never offered armed resistance to the Soviets. The estimated number of victims is about 22,000, with the most commonly cited number of 21,768. [2]About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, spies, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials."[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre




Anders Army known as Poland's Home Army was not fighting for "Soviets" and did not attack Ukraine, they were in it to regain Poland. .

Poland's Home Army attacked Ukrainains. Poles wanted to remain occupants in so-called Kresy, Ukrainain and Belarusian ethnic territories, after the German defeat. Fortunately, Polish Home Army was kicked out of Ukraine by local nationalist units.

Poland's Home Army in Poland laid down arms and self-dissolved at the communist order. It is a fact that can't be called in question

Poles in Ukraine, including the former members of self-dissolved Polish Home Army, actively collaborated with the Soviets and volonteered to join anti-UPA jastrebki units.



If you recall Stalin and Hitler had a plan, wipe out Poland and split Poland.

I can recall that Poland remained a separate independent state without being forced to be part of the USSR and was even given extensive German territories.

Egorka
05-09-2008, 09:08 AM
How we came up with this 1.7 million. You are right about speculation.

Go once again to my post #46 and follow the first link to the Polish National Rememberence Institute.
That is the official Polish number for the deportation.
1.7 million is the product of lack of informmation during the Cold War time.

Stasha
05-09-2008, 12:51 PM
Professor Keith Sword: "Deportation and Exile: Poles in the Soviet Union, 1939-1948", ISBN 0-312-12397-3: "Most estimates from Polish émigré sources range between 1.250.000 and 1.600.000 altogether. The fact that the Soviet authorities only admitted to holding 387.932 Polish citizens at the outbreak of the German-Soviet conflict can be attributed to a number of factors. Firstly, the Soviets' category of 'Polish citizen' may have been restricted to those who were not permanent residents of eastern Poland when the Red Army moved in. The permanent residents of the region were considered by this time to have become Soviet citizens. Secondly, the mortality rate of the Polish deportee population, estimated in some studies to be as high as 30 per cent per year, would have drastically reduced the original number. It is unlikely, however, that Soviet officials had reliable and up-to-date statistics of this kind - still less that they would have taken the trouble to collect them after the war broke out. The most probable explanation. is that the figures were a guess, a deliberate deception."

Professor Edward J. Rozek: "Allied Wartime Diplomacy: A Pattern in Poland": "From September 17, 1939 to June 1941, 1.692.000 Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Byelorussians were forcibly taken from their homes and deported to Russia. The number included 230.000 soldiers and officers of the Polish Army; 990.000 civilians, who were deported because of their 'nationalistic bourgeois background'; 250.000 political 'class enemies'; 210.000 Poles conscripted into the Red Army and then sent deep into the Soviet Union; and 12.000 other Poles gathered forcibly from the Baltic area. Among the deportees were 160.000 children and adolescents. . These figures were compiled by the Polish Embassy in the USSR during the period from August 1941 to April 1943 and are based on testimony of over 18.000 eyewitnesses - Poles who passed through prisons, concentration camps and forced labour camps in the Soviet Union. This collection is now in the Hoover Library on War, Revolution, and Peace in Stanford, California".

Julian Siedlecki: "Losy Polakow w ZSRR w latach 1939-1986": "Polish authorities estimated that around 1.500.000 Polish citizens were deported to the Soviet Union".
6. Michael Hope: "Polish Deportees in the Soviet Union", ISBN 0 948202 76 9: Including the relatively small percentage of Ukrainians, Jews and Byelorussians, the total number of Polish citizens deported to the Soviet Government during its 'eternal friendship' with Nazi Germany
Between 1939 and 1941 amounted to approximately 1,680,000 people, not including prisoners of war. There is a broad measure of agreement with this figure. Zubrzycki records in 1956 an estimated figure of one and a half million. This was revised upwards to a new figure of 1,700.000 in 1944 by the then Polish Government in exile. The Institute of Jewish Affairs in the US puts it at two million, of whom 500,000 were Jews. This latter figure is disputed, and the latest estimate (1972), compiled by the Sikorski Museum and the Polish Institute is 1,680,000, supported by calculations made by the Catholic Church. It is important to stress that these figures do not include military deportees."

article from a Polish newspaper in France, published in 1954:

Poles In the Depths of the USSR
The nightmarish fruits of the deportations

The overall number of Polish citizens deported by the NKVD from our eastern territories to the Soviet Union in the period 17th Sept.1939-July 1941 totaled 1.692.000 people. This figure comes from the following:
a) prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign 230.000
b) those interned after the 1939 campaign 12.000
c) those sent to labour camps 990.000
d) those condemned to prison 250.000
e) those incorporated into the Red Army 210.000

Total 1.692.000
In late autumn 1939 a decree was announced in the camps where Polish prisoners of war were interned (men) that all those who came from the territories occupied by the Red Army could return to their homes. Soon around 46.000 left the camps.

On July 30, 1941 Polish Government in London signed a treaty with the Soviet Union, as a result of which Russia was to release all the Polish citizens deported since 17th Sept.39.

Throughout February 1942 preparations were carried out to fulfill this agreement. The representatives of the Polish Government were bringing prisoners of war from whom army divisions were being formed. Unfortunately the Soviet authorities organized only two waves of repatraiation: one in March and the second in August 1942, which were directed to the Middle East.

This way the following numbers left the Soviet Union:
a) prisoners of war from the eastern territories of Poland 46.000
b)army 40.000
c)civilian population 74.500
Total 160.000

The second time the Soviet army entered Poland, under the slogan of 'liberating' the countries of Eastern and Central Europe it brought a new wave of terror and deportations.

These deportations have lasted from spring 1945 to this day. According to approximate calculations the Soviets sent away into the depths of Russia from that time till the end of 1951 around 1.700.000 people.

Therefore, the numbers of Polish citizens deported to Russia are as follows:
a) from 17 Sept. 1939 to July 1941 1.692.000
b)from spring 1945 to the end of 1951 1.700.000
__________________________________________________ _______________________ Total 3.392.000

Those who stayed for ever in Russia, ie those who perished, are the following:
a) those who died from natural causes up to 1st October 1942 413.000
b)officers murdered in Katyn 8.300
c) those who died from cold during transports and from exhaustion
in labour camps and prisons 308.000
d) those murdered by their guards during the evacuation of prisons
and camps after the outbreak of the Russo-German war 4.500
e) those who disappeared without trace 113.500
Total 850.000
f) according to the calculations of the League for Human and Civil Rights
from spring 1945 till the end of 1951 those who lost their lives 750.000
___________________________________
Total 1.600.000

Thus if we continue our calculations:
a) those deported from 1939 till the end of 1951 3.392.000
b) those who lost their lives 1.600.000
c)those repatriated 160.500
____________________________________
Total 1.760.000

We thus reach the figure of 1.631.500, ie those still dispersed around prisons and labour camps all over Russia, suffering hopeless and depressing vegetation.


Here is a break down and some of the growing number of victim's.

Stasha
05-09-2008, 01:48 PM
Karta is not a complete list, what you see is what Russia has confirmed.

Audience were pleased with their work, however still sees need of further researches to recognize all kinds of Sybiraks from different periods of Polish history (ie deportees from 30’s, from 1940/41 to other oblasts, soldiers of Armia Krajowa and others sent to Siberia in 1946-50 etc.).

The historians explained that 320.000 refers to confirmed by existing/ found documentation (in East and West) number of Poles deported only in mentioned above 4 deportation of 1940/41. It’s a bottom margain, which for sure will not be lower. It doesn’t mean, that is a full number of deportees. In their opinion in can be 1 million or more in total.

As for who owned Kresy, her's a great site. It not only gives who owned but who was living in diff. area's.

Eastern Poland

http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id17.html

Stasha
05-09-2008, 02:32 PM
"Poland's Home Army attacked Ukrainains. Poles wanted to remain occupants in so-called Kresy, Ukrainain and Belarusian ethnic territories, after the German defeat. Fortunately, Polish Home Army was kicked out of Ukraine by local nationalist units."

Here's your link to location traveled by Polish when granted amnesy.

http://www.rymaszewski.iinet.net.au/6escape.html

Please give a link to where Poland attacked Ukraine, unless you are referring to 1944 when they went in after Soviets.

http://www.pacwashmetrodiv.org/projects/ejszyszki/ejszyszki.doc

Or this:

GENOCIDE COMMITTED BY UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS
ON THE POLISH POPULATION OF VOLHYNIA
DURING WORLD WAR II (1939-1945)

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm

Egorka
05-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Do I get you right that you did not read the page I linked to in my post #46? This one (http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=en&dzial=2&id=275&search=39).
If not, I wonder why not? Do you understand what "The Institute for National Remembrence" is, right?

Here I done a little work for you:

year book books
issued title author

1994 "Deportation and Exile: Poles Keith Sword
in the Soviet Union, 1939-1948"

1958 "Allied Wartime Diplomacy: Edward J. Rozek
A Pattern in Poland"

1987 "Losy Polakow w ZSRR w Julian Siedlecki
latach 1939-1986"

1954 Polish newspaper in France
Note when those books are published. And you can imaging that the sources used for these books are even more dated.
You see, the 1,7 million is a folklore number. It is a product of poeple's talk. There were no access to the archives, no documents available so the only way people could put an estimate on it is by talking about it. And when talking about bad scary things people tend to exaggerate.
As one of Karta Center report states:

http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_5.html
All the earlier historical translations (mosly written by emigration) were based on the relatively limited knowledge - mainly estimation made by polish representatives in USSR in 1941 - 43 and memories and stories from the repressed (people who were jailed in the work camps, and deported). Some polish historians tell still about the same estimates of 1,5 - 2 million the repressed people in USRR and under Russian occupation after 1939. The real numbers based on the actual knowledge are much lower than those estimated. The next update of that report that was published in April 2000 under the auspices of Polish Ministry of Justice summarizes all the verified data about the polish losses in the East. It is the current picture of the level of the knowledge we have about the Russian repressions.

Here is one of the previous discussions on this subject in our forum:
What was the reason for Deporting Poles and other ethnic groups from Eastern Poland? (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4341&highlight=karta)

In there you can find translation from Polish kindly provided by our fellow member Kovalski.
Here it is: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=107959#post107959
I advise you to read it.

Kato
05-10-2008, 12:54 AM
Here's your link to location traveled by Polish when granted amnesy.

It concerned only some very small proportion of former AK members in Poland and not in Ukraine.


Please give a link to where Poland attacked Ukraine, unless you are referring to 1944 when they went in after Soviets.

The official Polish government conducted "Pacification", the campaign of terror and murders against Ukrainians in so-called Kresy throughout 1930s

According to Ukrainian estimates, the AK killed as many as 20,000 Ukrainian civilians in Volhynia. In fact Ukrainian nationalists saved the local Ukrainian population from AK ethnic cleansings. After the deserting of the local German police manned by Ukrainians, Germans formed new police forces from local Poles to attack Ukrainians.

Not to mention ethnic cleansings of Ukrainians organized by the new Polish government in modern north-eastern Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wis%C5%82a






GENOCIDE COMMITTED BY UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS
ON THE POLISH POPULATION OF VOLHYNIA
DURING WORLD WAR II (1939-1945)

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm

Some genocide of Poles in Volyn is not officially recognized by Poland or by any other state in the world. So the usage of the word "genocide" does not make any sense.

Stasha
05-12-2008, 09:14 AM
It concerned only some very small proportion of former AK members in Poland and not in Ukraine.



The official Polish government conducted "Pacification", the campaign of terror and murders against Ukrainians in so-called Kresy throughout 1930s

According to Ukrainian estimates, the AK killed as many as 20,000 Ukrainian civilians in Volhynia. In fact Ukrainian nationalists saved the local Ukrainian population from AK ethnic cleansings. After the deserting of the local German police manned by Ukrainians, Germans formed new police forces from local Poles to attack Ukrainians.

Not to mention ethnic cleansings of Ukrainians organized by the new Polish government in modern north-eastern Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wis%C5%82a

Please look at the date as this was "communist occupied Poland" not to be confused with "Poland". Wikipedia I find very inaccurate and is being challanged on regular basis.







Some genocide of Poles in Volyn is not officially recognized by Poland or by any other state in the world. So the usage of the word "genocide" does not make any sense.

Poland has meet with Ukraine and although research has been done by Poland they are waiting for Ukraine to do the same. Ukraine said they will say sorry after they do research. Yes IMO it was a "genocide" and will be shown as such in the future.

Kato
05-12-2008, 11:26 AM
Poland has meet with Ukraine and although research has been done by Poland they are waiting for Ukraine to do the same. Ukraine said they will say sorry after they do research. Yes IMO it was a "genocide" and will be shown as such in the future.

What a nuisence!

At the 60th anniversary of the events in Volyn the parliaments of both countries issued a joint statement in which those events were identified as interethnic conflict. The official Polish side has never mentioned the word "genocide" or claimed it would try to describe these events as the genocide of Poles in future.

Stasha
05-13-2008, 08:09 AM
I think killing was one thing but this artical and Russia's cold comments are over the top. How dare they suggest "Poles have a complex". I would love to know what the "cure" for this is as I will make a mint selling it?

Carol
"Poles simply have a complex and they should get cured"
FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Putin’s aide - Poles suffer from Katyn complex

Created: 13.05.2008 12:31


An aid to Vladimir Putin, Professor Sergei Karaganov, believes Poles should get rid of their ‘Katyn massacre complex’.



Professor Karaganov has told a press conference that unofficially, Russia apologised to Poland for the Katyn massacre a long time ago, writes Gazeta Wyborcza daily.



Karaganov said that Moscow refused to issue an official apology, as it believes Poland would demand reparations and compensation from Russia if it did so.



‘As far as I know, the documents were revealed a long time ago. Poles simply have a complex and they should get cured. We do admit that it was Stalin who killed [them]. Putin apologised for that and I do not quite understand why. Russians suffered because of Stalin, too. President Jeltsin’s parents died in the same way’, Karaganov told the press.

Professor Karaganov added that hypothetically, Russia could also demand reparations from Poland for the invasion of Moscow by Napoleon’s army.



The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyń Forest massacre, was a mass execution of Polish citizens ordered by Soviet authorities on March 5, 1940. The estimated number of victims is about 22,000. (mj)
http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/foreign-affairs/?id=82286

warhunter
10-01-2008, 09:40 AM
I see that some of you are afraid to speak anything that is anti-Russian. Yet you freely attack other historical entities. Is this an example of political correctness applied here too?

Stasha
10-02-2008, 06:21 AM
I see that some of you are afraid to speak anything that is anti-Russian. Yet you freely attack other historical entities. Is this an example of political correctness applied here too?


As sad as your observation seems it is true. While the nation seems to know the real history and face the true facts, simple facts seem to baffle many here.

Stasha
10-02-2008, 08:40 AM
Just today this "breach of law" was disclosed.

Moscow: “Katyn massacre” files to remain secret

A Moscow court has rejected a Russian NGO’s appeal to disclose the 1940 “Katyn massacre” records.



The Municipal Court in Moscow rejected, Thursday, an appeal by the Russian historical and civil rights NGO, the Memorial Society, to disclose reasons behind disclose a decision to discontinue the investigation into the killing of thousands of Polish officers by the NKVD in 1940.



The Memorial NGO called the prosecution’s refusal to explain their verdict as “a breach of law”.



Today’s verdict upheld a decision previously made by a court of first instance, explaining that the Memorial Society had “no right to file for disclosure of the Russian Supreme Military Prosecution’s decisions”.



“The judges were afraid of passing a different verdict”, the NGO’s legal representative Diana Sork told reporters outside the court this morning.



The Memorial Society has informed it will refer the case to the European Court of Justice in Strasbourg.



In 1940, up to 22,000 Poles were killed by the Soviet secret police, NKVD, on the orders of Joseph Stalin. The Soviets initially claimed that that Nazi soldiers were responsible for the murders. But after an investigation in the 1990s Moscow admitted that it was in fact the NKVD who were responcible but have since refused, both to label the massacre as ‘genocide’, or carry out prosecutions against those still alive who took part. (mj)

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/foreign-affairs/?id=92737

Tim.D
04-12-2010, 03:17 AM
After the death of the Polish President and other dignitaries this Saturday people around the world heard the name Katyn. And the Russians are even showing the Polish film on the Russian tv [RTR] and a documentary on the subject [ORT] . Prime Minister Putin has called the Katyn massacre an "Act of Stalin’s vengeance" for the defeat of 1920 in the Polish–Soviet War.

Chevan
04-12-2010, 03:41 AM
He actualy said that the polish POWs was victims of Totalitarian regime.
Some of russian nationalist shares the point about "Stalin's vengeance" for 18 000 of soviet pows , threated to death in Polish camps in winter 1920-21. But neither Putin nor any other russian officials proclaims something simular...
But i have to agree the russian behavior looks really strange.
From the one hand - the RF head recognizes the Mass Execution of poles by NKVD, from the another hand - the Russian courts rejects all the attempts to study the archives, claiming i's contain the state's secret datas.
But from that point - both Gorbachev and Yeltsyn should be judged for divulgence of top-state secrets. We don't see that. Moreover the polish side claims they ALREADY has a documents that enough to make the true conclusion investigation.Why the court don't comment the documents , that has been declassified so far?
Doest it mean the court don't consider it to be original?
All this pretty strange..

Nickdfresh
04-13-2010, 08:34 AM
De-archived...

Rising Sun*
04-13-2010, 09:15 AM
He actualy said that the polish POWs was victims of Totalitarian regime.
Some of russian nationalist shares the point about "Stalin's vengeance" for 18 000 of soviet pows , threated to death in Polish camps in winter 1920-21. But neither Putin nor any other russian officials proclaims something simular...
But i have to agree the russian behavior looks really strange.
From the one hand - the RF head recognizes the Mass Execution of poles by NKVD, from the another hand - the Russian courts rejects all the attempts to study the archives, claiming i's contain the state's secret datas.
But from that point - both Gorbachev and Yeltsyn should be judged for divulgence of top-state secrets. We don't see that. Moreover the polish side claims they ALREADY has a documents that enough to make the true conclusion investigation.Why the court don't comment the documents , that has been declassified so far?
Doest it mean the court don't consider it to be original?
All this pretty strange..

Less strange than you being sent to a gulag when Putin and his crew find out what you've said here. ;) :(

Make sure you go to a modern gulag, with internet access, so that Nick and I can cheer you up with our sympathetic comments about how terrible it must be to be so cold there in your pyjamas and clogs while you're clawing coal out of the tundra with your fingernails. ;) :D

Seriously, so far as the earlier post about the court decision is concerned, it might be no different to court decisions in the supposedly democratic West where laws are often structured by the government in such a way that a court cannot do what justice or common sense require when the government's misconduct may be exposed.

The legal system in court actions is concerned essentially with resolution of disputes between parties to the dispute. If you're not directly involved in the dispute you usually don't have legal standing to go to court about it.

The brief post about the Moscow court decision suggests to me that the court's decision might be similar to a Western court's view that the plaintiff lacks standing to sue. That is, the plaintiff lacks sufficient legal involvement and legally affected rights as distinct from mere personal interest in the case. It's the difference between being, say, one of the people directly involved as a driver, passenger or car owner in a car accident and a bystander who wasn't involved but who wants to make an issue of something about the conduct of those directly involved but who can't get the issue into court because his or her legal rights haven't been affected by anything the driver, passenger or car owner did.

Tim.D
04-14-2010, 02:44 PM
Less strange than you being sent to a gulag when Putin and his crew find out what you've said here.
Don't worry Rising Sun Russia is changing their point of view on the Katyn massacre just now.
Look what the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said for "Russia Today" just now on the 14th of April:
Regarding the occasion, it was a difficult one too, even though recently, we’ve come a long way. An assessment was made of the Katyn tragedy, and it was objective. It had obviously happened with the will of leaders of that time, including Stalin. Characters of this kind will always provoke different responses in people. It’s not a question of the mentality of one country or another, whether it’s totally liberated or whether it had been formed by a totalitarian period.
Or You can read the whole interview and find out what the Russian leader now thinks of Stalin. What a long way it has been to state the denial of the massacre in 1943.

That means Chevan is staying with us a little longer :lol:
As for the Russian courts, who knows what their rulings will be after a few more years?

And yes the interview://rt.com/Top_News/2010-04-14/medvedev-interview-head-rt.html jut type hhtp: in front of the page adress.