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Man of Stoat
11-01-2007, 05:00 AM
It is preposterous to group small arms and big guns in the same quiz. Here's a proper one. First person to post a correct answer can post the next question, except PK, who is already king of his own sandpit.

First question:

In the specification for the rifles which were to become the two G41s, what were the two extra limiting factors imposed on the designers above and beyond the usual considerations , and why were they put there? extra brownie points for why these considerations were both unnecessary and unnecessarily complicated the designs.

In this case, the best answer provided by 12 p.m. Central European Time (that is one hour from now) gets to continue. A complete answer provided before then automatically wins. Is no good answer is provided by the above time, and extension will be provided.

Cuts
11-01-2007, 05:30 AM
My thruppence worth:

1. The weapon had to be capable of being manually operated.
2. The bbl of the wpn was not to be drilled for a gas port.


Requirements also stated that no part of the upper surface was to move in auto loading, and that std 7.92 ammo was to be used.


.

Rising Sun*
11-01-2007, 05:40 AM
It is preposterous to group small arms and big guns in the same quiz.

That's for sure.

Preposterous is as preposterous does. ;)

Man of Stoat
11-01-2007, 05:50 AM
I don't think anybody is going to do better than cuts in the next 10 minutes, so he takes it.

Cuts, your question Sir!

For reference, and what would have got brownie points, would have been to state that the German brass hats had an irrational fear of tapping barrels laterally for gas -- they believed it weakened the barrel (which it doesn't), so this forced the really inefficient and over complex muzzle trap and annular piston around the barrel system.
Mauser interpreted the manual operation requirement to mean that it could be manually operated as a normal turn bolt, so they built a ridiculous turn bolt handle into it. This was complicated and unreliable.
The "no moving surface" was essentially utterly random, there is no fundamental reason why not to have one in such an open top design.

Cuts
11-01-2007, 07:03 AM
An easy one then.

What were the main differencies between the Bergmann 34/I and most other weapons of the ilk ?

That shouldn't be too taxing.

Man of Stoat
11-01-2007, 07:28 AM
Magazine on the right-hand side
floating firing pin
unnecessary, complex bolt retracting assembly

Cuts
11-01-2007, 08:03 AM
That'll do, crack on.

Man of Stoat
11-01-2007, 08:14 AM
How many rounds of what calibre did the trials Garand Rifle take?

Cuts
11-01-2007, 09:26 AM
How many rounds of what calibre did the trials Garand Rifle take?

10 rds of .276
Too easy, give us another one :D

Man of Stoat
11-01-2007, 09:56 AM
In what direction, and by roughly how much, does the point of impact deviate at 100 yards from a correctly zeroed rifle when a bayonet was attached to the following rifles:

SMLE
No.4
M-N 1891/30

Cuts
11-01-2007, 01:08 PM
Given a standard bayonet, ie a 1907, the SMLE shoots 2' high.
Interestingly the No. 4 with fixed bayonet will shoot 10" low.



Now for your trick question. :D
The Mosin-Nagants were zeroed with the bayonet attatched so if a rifle has been correctly zeroed, fixing a bayonet will have no effect on the PoI.

Taking the bugger off on the other hand will sod the PoI completely. (Try 18" high & 3' right on one example !)

Cuts
11-01-2007, 03:04 PM
Whoops, forgot to pose a question, let's have another easy one.

What is the longest 'serving' cartridge in the world ?
By which I mean which metallic cartridge has seen the longest term of continuous use by regular forces ?

MoS, give everyone else a chance !

jacobtowne
11-01-2007, 04:45 PM
Handgun - 9mm Para.?

Rifle - .303 British? Or if that cartridge no longer serves, perhaps the 7.62x54R Russian.

JT

Cuts
11-01-2007, 05:18 PM
Handgun - 9mm Para.?

Rifle - .303 British? Or if that cartridge no longer serves, perhaps the 7.62x54R Russian.

JT

Come on, make your mind up ! :D

Drake
11-01-2007, 05:33 PM
As we Germans had to give up the Mauser I would think too it's the 7,62x54R

Cuts
11-01-2007, 05:49 PM
As we Germans had to give up the Mauser I would think too it's the 7,62x54R

You made the decision so you've got it.
Your question now.

Drake
11-01-2007, 07:18 PM
Ah, crap, I suck at making up questions.
Hmmm, who constructed the Flieger Selbstladekarabiner 1915

Cuts
11-01-2007, 08:30 PM
Designed it or built it ?

Man of Stoat
11-02-2007, 02:57 AM
Designed by a Mexican chap called Mondragon, built if I remember correctly by SIG in Switzerland (not sure about the latter point)

Drake
11-02-2007, 03:59 AM
meant designed it and man of stoat has the right to pose questions

Cuts
11-02-2007, 04:05 AM
MoS is correct though.
I was hoping someone else would provide the solution, now I won't have to tax my brain posing another. :)

Man of Stoat
11-02-2007, 04:29 AM
Which bullet was copied (country and designation please) and mated with the .30-06 to result in the short lived .30 M1 cartridge, and why was this deemed necessary?

jacobtowne
11-02-2007, 08:38 AM
Swiss boat-tailed spitzer. Increased range, especially for machine guns.

JT

Man of Stoat
11-02-2007, 08:44 AM
You'll have to give me the designation to get your cookie! But otherwise correct...

Man of Stoat
11-02-2007, 09:19 AM
Forget it, it is GP 11

Your question!

jacobtowne
11-02-2007, 10:19 AM
What is GP11? Swiss designation?

John Browning's famous cal. .45 pistol, the U.S. Model of 1911 (see avatar), was re-designated M1911A1 in the 1920s after several miinor modifications. What does the "A" stand for?

JT

tankgeezer
11-02-2007, 12:37 PM
Quote: "My thruppence worth"

The terms are, Ha'pence, pence, tuppence, and thrippence. :)

RifleMan20
11-02-2007, 02:10 PM
A is for apple, I mean addition, I think

Cuts
11-02-2007, 03:51 PM
Quote: "My thruppence worth"

The terms are, Ha'pence, pence, tuppence, and thrippence. :)


Proword NOWAH

Except for the soft items referred to in Cockney rhyming slang, when did you last use - or even see - a thruppenny bit ?

Who did your English colloquial dictionary, **** van Dyke ? :D
No-one brought up east of the Atlantic would ever dream of using the phrase "my pence worth," and "my tuppence worth" would raise a smile in some areas. "Thrippence worth" is not something I personally have heard, but there may well be a remote community where it is in common use.
"My ha'pence worth" would seem to be another comment straight from Bert the Sweep (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/mediaplayer.asp?ean=050086120277&disc=1&track=10)'s vocabulary, "ha'penn'orth" or "ha'penneth" are regularly used by those familiar with real money, ie Lsd.


Actually the term was written as 'thruppence' purely to aid the comprehension of chimneysweeps from West Plains, Missouri and other Colonials whose mother tongue is not English.
To get the full phonetic experience it would be written; 'fruppence' or, allegedly, 'phruppence.' ;)

jacobtowne
11-02-2007, 04:02 PM
A is for apple, I mean addition, I think

Neither one.

JT

tankgeezer
11-02-2007, 04:48 PM
Masterpiece Theater.

RifleMan20
11-02-2007, 10:49 PM
Neither one.

JT

dang it, was i close

Man of Stoat
11-05-2007, 02:15 AM
A stands for "alteration"

jacobtowne
11-05-2007, 08:35 AM
A stands for "alteration"

Correct.

JT

Man of Stoat
11-05-2007, 09:18 AM
The first German experimental assault rifle was designed by Vollmer in the mid 1930s. What was it called, what calibre was it in, and what was its principal of operation?

Cuts
11-05-2007, 10:34 AM
The first German experimental assault rifle was designed by Vollmer in the mid 1930s. What was it called, what calibre was it in, and what was its principal of operation?

Would that be the muzzle-trap Vollmer Machinenkarabiner M35 in 7.75 x 40 (7.75 x 39) Geco pushing 147gr at about 2350 fps and sporting a 20 rd mag by any chance ?

Cuts
11-05-2007, 05:17 PM
Another question, this time relating to an earlier one.

The 30 M1 cart was only in service very briefly, give two reasons for this.

Man of Stoat
11-06-2007, 03:12 AM
I know the answer, but I'll give someone else a chance...

jacobtowne
11-06-2007, 09:12 AM
Another question, this time relating to an earlier one.

The 30 M1 cart was only in service very briefly, give two reasons for this.

Ordnance experienced difficulty adapting the cartridge to the M1 Garand rifle, so returned to the 150-grain flat based bullet, designated M2.

That's only one reason, but offhand I can't think of the other.

JT

Man of Stoat
11-06-2007, 09:19 AM
Unfortunately, no it is not. It is a myth. The M1 cartridge works just fine in the Garand, see Hatcher.

Keep trying!

Man of Stoat
11-07-2007, 05:34 AM
Right. No takers? Then the answer is:

The new cartridge significantly outshot the range safety templates then in use, causing some issues. A. "training cartridge" for use on these ranges which replicated the original 30-06 ballistics was then quickly introduced, which was the 30 M2 cartridge. Soldiers much preferred this cartridge, due to the lighter recoil, and because the majority of the old First World War machine gunners had moved on (so there was nobody who really remembered doing extreme range barrages with Vickers) and the fact that the M2 cartridge was cheaper because it used less materials in its manufacture, the M1 cartridge was dropped.

Okay, new question:

A Swiss gentleman named Rubin, who designed the British .303 cartridge, offered a rimless version to the British Army. For what spurious reason was this rimless version turned down? (It would have been such a storming cartridge...)

jacobtowne
11-07-2007, 12:56 PM
Right. No takers? Then the answer is:

The new cartridge significantly outshot the range safety templates then in use, causing some issues. A. "training cartridge" for use on these ranges which replicated the original 30-06 ballistics was then quickly introduced, which was the 30 M2 cartridge. Soldiers much preferred this cartridge, due to the lighter recoil, and because the majority of the old First World War machine gunners had moved on (so there was nobody who really remembered doing extreme range barrages with Vickers) and the fact that the M2 cartridge was cheaper because it used less materials in its manufacture, the M1 cartridge was dropped.


Right. That's what it says in Hatcher's Notebook. But the original question specified two reasons, and I see only one - the long range of the bullet exceeded the safety zones of some rifle ranges. Or is it that soldiers preferred the lighter recoil of the M2?

BTW, thank you for pointing out the error about the Garand.

Suggestion: Perhaps we could give members a little more time to respond to questions.

JT

Man of Stoat
11-08-2007, 02:16 AM
Yes, the two reasons were the range template issue and the fact that the soldiers preferred the lighter recoil of the "training" ammunition (coupled with the lower material cost) .

That last one was up for almost 24 hours, if we leave things longer than that it gets stagnant, but I see your point.

jacobtowne
11-08-2007, 08:28 AM
Yet another advantage mentioned by Hatch - the lighter bullet allowed a man to carry more rounds for a given weight.

JT

Man of Stoat
11-08-2007, 08:57 AM
I think that one is one of the occasions when Hatcher gets a little over exuberant -- for every hundred rounds, the difference is less than 6 ounces, allowing him to carry approximately 6 extra cartridges per hundred rounds for the same weight .

The one thing that Hatcher really isn't very good at is numbers and maths. he will have thought "lighter equals more rounds" without actually working it out.

Man of Stoat
11-14-2007, 09:25 AM
A reiteration of the question in case it got lost in the noise:

Okay, new question:

A Swiss gentleman named Rubin, who designed the British .303 cartridge, offered a rimless version to the British Army. For what spurious reason was this rimless version turned down? (It would have been such a storming cartridge...)

RifleMan20
11-21-2007, 11:38 PM
was it because the price was too expensive or was it because the bullet was a weaker inconvient bullet

Man of Stoat
11-22-2007, 02:58 AM
No, the price is the same.

The answer is that the members of the machine-gun committee were of the opinion that a machine-gun needed a protruding rim to be able to grab onto for reliable operation (which is completely untrue, and I suspect that they didn't quite understand what "rimless" meant).

Rimless .303 really would have been an excellent cartridge (interestingly this is more or less what 7.7 Japanese is), but never underestimate the power of a committee to throw a spanner in the works.



New question:

Name four bolt action rifles which were converted to semi/fully automatic in at least prototype form and firing the original cartridge. Extra brownie points if you can name five or more.

malarz_russ@hotmail.com
08-10-2008, 11:43 PM
Hello, Man of Stoat!

Here's what I came up with to answer your question:

1. SNABB 38: Swedish designed modification of the M1894 Krag-Jorgensen rifle

2. Charlton Automatic Rifle: New Zealand modification to Lee Enfield rifles

3. Fusil Mle 1917 RSC: modification / alteration of the French Lebel model 1886 rifle using the stock, barrel, trigger guard, and foregrip

4. The Huot automatic rifle: Canadian conversion of obsolete Ross Rifle to light machine guns

I couldn't find anymore during my search on-line.

Russ
Proud son of Rose and Wes

Man of Stoat
08-11-2008, 02:29 AM
Number three doesn't count because the conversion only used trivial components, not the action.

The other two immediate answers are:

1903 Springfield
Schmidt Rubin K11

Of course, only in prototype form...

There were also several variations of converting Lee Enfield's.