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View Full Version : Maschinenpistolen, german submachineguns.



ww2artist
10-20-2007, 10:33 AM
It's one of my favourite guns of WW2, but just how good a gun was it?

I have read it suffered from jams quite often. Would allied ammo of any type fill the magazine?

roll:

jacobtowne
10-20-2007, 01:49 PM
It's one of my favourite guns of WW2, but just how good a gun was it?

I have read it suffered from jams quite often. Would allied ammo of any type fill the magazine?

roll:

1. The MP38 and 40 were well-made, robust, and effective submachine guns.


2. Only if the Allies manufactured 9mm Parabellum ammunition.


JT

Nickdfresh
10-20-2007, 03:13 PM
Yeah. I'm no expert on German small arms. But I don't ever recall seeing anything other than the MP40 was a reliable weapon.

ww2artist
10-20-2007, 06:25 PM
I think the MP43 was a reliable weapon in the German armoury. It had a similar-looking magazine to the latter day AK-47, for those not familiar with it.

Personally, the MP40 is still my fav though.:)

Nickdfresh
10-20-2007, 06:42 PM
I think you mean MP44..

Panzerknacker
10-20-2007, 06:47 PM
There was a topic of the Mp-40 but I cant found it now.

Some detailed pics can be found here:

http://www.worldwar.it/armi/mp40/default.asp

ww2artist
10-20-2007, 06:51 PM
I stand corrected...MP44

bas
10-22-2007, 06:11 AM
The MP.40 was as reliable as any open bolt submachine-gun with a big opening right above the chamber. As long as you kept foreign matter out of there it would run smoothly. As soon as dirt or sand got in there things went sour. Unfortunatly this can be surprisingly difficult on the battlefield.

I have also read that it worked best if you didn't load the full 32 rounds in the magazine, it was recommended to stop at 30.

Not a very flash one, but all mine:
http://www.gunpics.net/german/mp40/essay/mp4023.JPG


I think you mean MP44..

Not really, MP.43 MP.44 and StG.44 are all the same gun. The only difference is the name which was changed because of politics.

Panzerknacker
10-22-2007, 07:20 PM
If you mean the Mp-44, better know as StG 44 you might want to check here:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1898

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5238


There was even an argentine variant:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1932&page=24

FW-190 Pilot
10-23-2007, 01:42 AM
how about thompson submachine gun? compare to thompson, mp-40 only has 350 bullets per minute while the thompson has over 800 bullets per minute.

bwing55543
10-23-2007, 06:53 AM
1. The MP38 and 40 were well-made, robust, and effective submachine guns.


2. Only if the Allies manufactured 9mm Parabellum ammunition.


JT

Which is why the Sten was chambered to take 9mm ammunition: so the Brit who wields it can take ammo from a fallen German who happened to be carrying an MP-40.

Cuts
10-23-2007, 02:16 PM
how about thompson submachine gun? compare to thompson, mp-40 only has 350 bullets per minute while the thompson has over 800 bullets per minute.

Precisely.
As many other posters have pointed out over various threads, a high rate of fire is not an advantage, in fact most wpns designers take steps to reduce the rof of their designs.

Quite apart from the general question of controllability, think about the weight.
The issue 45 ACP has a bullet weight of 230 gn, the standard NATO mm Para round carries a bullet of 115 gn - half the weight.
The WWII German 9mm was even lighter as they conserved lead, (and thereby weight,) by making the heads of a ferrous core surrounded by lead, with a steel (or gilding metal) jacket.

If we take your rates of fire, (which by the way are incorrect,) the MP40 with 200 rds could fire for over twice as long, and with a weight penalty of less than half that of a Thompson with the same number of rds.

Add to this the transport of raw materials to the munitions factory, the finished rds to the sldrs and importantly the combat payload of the individual and you can see one of the reasons why the MP40 was a good choice for the Germans - and the Sten an even better choice for the allies.

Always look at the logistics. ;)


On the weapon itself, the Thompson is an absolute dream to fire, it controls easily in full auto, due in no small part to it's weight. But the weight is one of the reasons I'd have hated to have to carry one in the fd.

Cuts
10-23-2007, 02:20 PM
Which is why the Sten was chambered to take 9mm ammunition: so the Brit who wields it can take ammo from a fallen German who happened to be carrying an MP-40.

Not only the rds Bwing, the mags are interchangeable too.

bas
10-24-2007, 01:01 AM
Not only the rds Bwing, the mags are interchangeable too.

Not too sure on the truth of that mate, will have to borrow some sten mags to test this weekend.

ww2artist
10-24-2007, 07:43 AM
The MP.40 was as reliable as any open bolt submachine-gun with a big opening right above the chamber. As long as you kept foreign matter out of there it would run smoothly. As soon as dirt or sand got in there things went sour. Unfortunatly this can be surprisingly difficult on the battlefield.

I have also read that it worked best if you didn't load the full 32 rounds in the magazine, it was recommended to stop at 30.

Not a very flash one, but all mine:
http://www.gunpics.net/german/mp40/essay/mp4023.JPG



Not really, MP.43 MP.44 and StG.44 are all the same gun. The only difference is the name which was changed because of politics.

A nice example. Is this an original, de-activated weapon?

bas
10-25-2007, 12:23 AM
A nice example. Is this an original, de-activated weapon?

Original, live weapon.

ww2artist
10-28-2007, 04:19 PM
Excellent, a nice gun for the collection. :)

Splinter54
12-06-2007, 03:16 PM
The EMP44 - Erna Maschinen Pistole 44 (?)

This is probably the strangest weapon i have ever seen - it looks like a very, very improvised PPS43 using the magazine containing 9mm bullets of the MP40 etc. series.
Does anybody has further informations about that weapon? Thank you! :D

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3028/emp44me4.jpg

pdf27
12-06-2007, 07:22 PM
Yuk! That thing makes a Sten look graceful!

Panzerknacker
12-06-2007, 07:32 PM
Does anybody has further informations about that weapon? Thank you!


A little form Lexikon der wehrmacht:

Ebenfalls eine Volksmaschinenpistole (VMP)stellte die Firma Walther im Dezember 1944 vor. Sie ging aber auch nicht mehr in die Fertigung. Eine erheblich vereinfachte Waffe war die EMP 44, die aus Rohrstücken zusammengeschweißt war. Sie wurde von der Firma Erma entwickelt, hatte einen 250 mm langen Lauf und war insgesamt 720 mm lang. Ihr Gewicht lag bei 3,6 kg, als Magazine wurden die Doppelmagazine der MP 40/11 verwendet. Auch hier lief die Fertigung nicht mehr an.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Maschinenpistolen.htm

Splinter54
12-07-2007, 08:24 AM
My god - that weapon was designed already in 1943

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erma_EMP_44

That made me laugh - aslong as it can fire it doesn't matter if it is the ugliest weapon in the world - like Mr. pdf27 said, even the Sten was used although it is not the most beautiful weapon ever being produced.

This prototype passed all German Ordnance tests in 43 but was not adopted because of its cheap look.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2100/2159.htm

Panzerknacker
12-07-2007, 08:57 AM
That made me laugh - aslong as it can fire it doesn't matter if it is the ugliest weapon in the world - like Mr. pdf27 said, even the Sten was used although it is not the most beautiful weapon ever being produced.

Well, sometimes the Sten didnt fire either, just ask the Heydrich assasins about it. :rolleyes:

By the way those are submachineguns not rifles so... I am creating new topic for this.

Man of Stoat
12-07-2007, 09:20 AM
The issue with the STEN was crap magazines, not the design of the weapon itself.

bwing55543
12-08-2007, 08:24 PM
The issue with the STEN was crap magazines, not the design of the weapon itself.

Also, in this image, I'm really not sure one can really put an MP-40's mag into a Sten.

http://www.a-human-right.com/sten/s_sten_top.jpg

My main problem with the Sten is the lack of a proper foregrip.

overlord644
12-09-2007, 12:40 AM
the mp40 clip looks wider, i dont think that the foregrip is too big a problem, holding it by the clip would be fine for firing from the hip

Man of Stoat
12-09-2007, 07:14 AM
You should never fire a STEN holding the magazine, it damages the locking catch of the magazine Housing.

In any case, the weapon is gripped around the barrel nut. What's wrong with that?

overlord644
12-09-2007, 04:04 PM
oh, yeah that would suck. Sorry

Nickdfresh
12-09-2007, 06:53 PM
You should never fire a STEN holding the magazine, it damages the locking catch of the magazine Housing.

In any case, the weapon is gripped around the barrel nut. What's wrong with that?

Didn't tend to burn?

In any case, I find the Sten with a forward mounted pistol grip to be cool looking...

http://files.uzitalk.com/images/usma/museum/sten-mark-v.jpg

I have to wonder how useful the bayonet lug was though...

Man of Stoat
12-10-2007, 04:05 AM
That forward pistol grip used to break off and was deleted from later production Mk. V's.

Interestingly, both the Dutch and South Africans retrofitted metal forward pistol grips to many of their Mk. II's post-war (I think you are right in suggesting that heating of the barrel nut was an issue which led to this)

Panzerknacker
12-11-2007, 06:26 PM
The germans tried his own variant of the Sten, the MP 3008, very much like the british gun but with a vertical magazine.

MP 3008.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/99/MP_3008_Sub_Machine_Gun_Wooden-Stocked.jpg

http://www.answers.com/topic/mp-3008

Tony Williams
12-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Which is why the Sten was chambered to take 9mm ammunition: so the Brit who wields it can take ammo from a fallen German who happened to be carrying an MP-40.

If he had any sense he'd take the MP 40 :D

Panzerknacker
12-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Amen to that Tony :D. I wouldnt feel confortable with that rough weld and stamped Sten in my hands, however with cold german steel...that is other thing.

Panzerknacker
01-17-2008, 09:17 PM
MP 36, a rare gun


http://www.smallarmsreview.com/mp1.jpg



The revolutionary MP38 machinepistole made its combat debut with the German blitzkrieg invasion of Poland that began on 1 September, 1939. Other than some self-inflicted casualties on the German troops from the MP38’s marginal safety system, the weapon was a huge success.

Despite the harsh restrictions, the Germans secretly continued to develop and test many new weapon designs for the war they knew was coming. Rather than manufacture and stockpile existing designs, they wanted to continually develop new weapons so when war did come, they would be equipped with the most advanced weapons available. While most of the Allies of WWI were enjoying peace, the Germans were secretly preparing for war.

Most of the submachine guns the Germans developed between the wars were all very similar to the MP18.I model. They all looked like short barreled carbines. Except for a few minor variances they all functioned pretty much the same. The MP38 was the first German production weapon that was different.

In January 1938 the German Heereswaffenamt (Army Weapons Office) requested a lightweight, compact, rapid firing 9mm weapon for paratroopers and armored crews.

The development time to the resulting MP38 in August of that same year was extraordinarily brief. The reason for the seemingly rapid development of the weapon was due in part to the model Erma Werk already had under development. One prototype was the MP36. The MP36 was virtually unknown for many years, due to extreme rarity of surviving examples.


http://www.smallarmsreview.com/mp2.jpg


The Only markings on the MP36 are located under the weapons foregrip. They read "EMP36" Erma Erfurt. Note serratted butt stock and disassembly knob.

Although the MP36 is similar to the MP38 there are some notable differences. The MP36 is selectfire, it has a fire mode selector located above the trigger housing. The fire selector is remarkably similar to that on the Haenel MP41 model. All of the MP36’s components are manufactured from machined steel stock.

The MP36 has wood furniture instead of plastic as used on the MP38/40. The pistol grip panels are also finely checkered wood. The folding metal stock of the MP36 is very similar to that of the later production design, except there are no springs, detents or release buttons. The stock folds and extends under the friction of the snug fitting parts. The butt plate has machined grooves instead of being smooth.

The front sling swivel can be easily rotated to either side. The magazine catch is the latch type similar to those used in earlier designs, rather then the button release of the MP38/40 design. The magazine release lever is located at the rear of the housing.
The bolt assembly is similar to the MP38/40 except that the front portion of MP36 bolt is a separate piece, and is attached by a locking screw. The front sight is a driftable unprotected design. The rear sight is similar to the MP38/40. The MP36 is devoid of any identification markings except for the underside of the wooden foregrip. This area is marked "ERMA ERFURT" "EMP 36", the EMP designation is for Erma Machine Pistol.

The MP36 cocking handle like the MP38/40 is located on the receiver’s left side. This was the very first German weapon to feature this. The idea behind the left side cocking handle was that it allowed the shooters hand to remain on the pistol grip (and finger near the trigger), allowing him to easily cock the weapon with his weak hand. It was thought that this would make for a more rapid magazine change, saving seconds and perhaps the shooter’s life.

The knob is similar to that on the earlier Erma EMP weapons. The magazine housing is unique in that it is slightly canted approximately 30 degrees to the left. The magazine is different, and not interchangeable with that of the MP8/40. When this weapon was captured there was no magazine in it. An MP40 magazine was adapted to fit. No original MP36 magazine has ever been located or documented. The MP36 field stripping procedures are very similar to those of the MP38/40.


http://www.smallarmsreview.com/mp6.jpg
Great room in Karinhall where the MP36 s/n 014 was believed to be kept by Göring.

This particular MP36 is serial number 014, and is a very well made piece. The finish is a very fine, highly polished commercial blue. The wood is made of fine sculptured walnut. Virtually every part is stamped with the weapon’s serial number, even the heads of the screws. The weapon is obviously a presentation piece, the type often presented to high ranking officials by the weapons manufacturers

This particular MP36 has a very colorful story of how it was obtained during WWII. In 1943 a group of volunteers was organized to go on a top secret covert mission. The mission’s objective was to assassinate Hitler’s Reichmarshall and head of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Göring. The attempt on Görings life was planned to take place at Karinhall located some 40 miles northeast of Berlin. Allied intelligence sources had reported that Göring would be present at Karinhall and that the grounds would be lightly guarded. Karinhall was one of Göring’s many extravagant residences. It was named after his late wife who had died prematurely in 1931.

The Allied team quietly parachuted into the area at night virtually undetected. Once they reached the grounds surrounding Karinhall they soon discovered that the mansion was being guarded by a private army of Görings elite Fallschirmjäger troops, all well trained and heavily armed. After the German troops discovered the team, a fierce firefight was soon underway.


http://www.smallarmsreview.com/mp3.jpg
Right side view of the canted magazine housing and release lever.

During the confusion a particular U.S major managed to slip into the main building to search for Göring. While he was looking around the main hall he spotted a strange, unfamiliar weapon hanging on the wall. Thinking it may be of interest to U.S. intelligence, he removed it and placed it in his pack. He then decided that the mission was failing, and decided to try fighting his way out of a rapidly deteriorating situation. He and a very small portion of the original Allied team managed to escape and make their way back to safety.

The weapon remained in the major’s possession for the remainder of the war. In 1945 when he returned to the United States he brought the MP36 home as a war souvenir. He stored the gun away and went on with his post war life. The major was unaware of just what a rare piece he had in his possession.

Eventually the weapon was sold and changed hands a few times in subsequent years. Today this unique weapon is in the fine collection of German weapons collector Lou Pacilla. It is the only transferable MP36 in the world. There is only one other example of the MP36 known to exist. That MP36 is serial number 001, and is in the possession of a military museum in Prague, Czechoslovakia. Reportedly the condition of that weapon is also excellent.

Hitler eventually ordered the Fallschirmjäger troops that were assigned to defend Göring’s Karinhall into the line defending Berlin from the invading Russian troops in 1945. The Russians took prisoner the troops who weren’t killed.

Göring ordered his engineers to destroy Karinhall as the Russians were sighted approaching the Schorfheide forest surrounding the estate in 1945. Although it was his favorite mansion, he did not want it to fall into Russian hands intact.


http://www.smallarmsreview.com/mp4.jpg


Right side view of the trigger area. Fire selector button is shown just above trigger.


The US Army Major who participated in the raid on Karinhall passed away recently after retiring from a very successful career in law enforcement.

The Erma MP36 serial number 014 has survived the past 50 plus odd years in the same immaculate condition as the day it was liberated from Hermann Göring’s mansion. The official version of the mission is still classified.
extracted from:

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/january.htm

Panzerknacker
04-22-2008, 09:34 PM
MP3008 ( german Sten copy) in the hands of a Waffen SS commander.

http://www.odkrywca-online.com/forum_pics/picsforum3/sten_copy.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-29-2009, 07:18 PM
The MP 3008 firing, very rare gun in the hands of an italian shooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ruDMKf5T8A