Shallow Graves in Siberia

[Jan Fiala]

Michael Krupa was born into a poor family in south-west Poland, and in his teens was accepted into a Jesuit seminary. He ran away before taking his final vows and joined the army. Soon afterwards, the German tanks rolled into Poland and easily defeated her antiquated forces - the Polish cavalry were armed with sabres. Krupa survived Hitler's invasion, but was arrested in Soviet-occupied eastern Poland and accused of spying. After enduring torture in Moscow's notorious Lubianka prison, he was sentenced to ten years' corrective labour and deported to the Pechora Gulag. Most prisoners there were worked and starved to death within a year. But Krupa managed again to escape, and in the chaos following the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union made one of the most extraordinary journeys of the war - from Siberia to safety in Afghanistan. Krupa's Jesuit training had given him an inner strength and resilience which enabled him to survive in the face of appalling brutality and cruelty. Luck and the kindness of strangers helped him complete his epic journey to freedom. The story of the suffering inflicted on millions in Stalin's camps has been told before - but Krupa's story is remarkable and unique. He retells his gruelling and traumatic experiences with clarity, honesty and courage, never overdramatising.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

www.amazone.com

Simply great book about human cruelty, goodness, humaneness, desire for liberty...

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M4VMVTP8L._AA240_.jpg

[Firefly]

Wow, that is trully a long way to travel and must be a good read, I will look out for this one.

[ww2artist]

That does sound like a good read! Thanks for the recommendation.

[Dantedanuta]

Hi
Saw your comments on the book Shallow Graves in Siberia by Micheal Krupa, just to let you know that Micheal is still alive at the grand old age of 93!!!
He is a fit man for his age but his present day memory is not so good now.
I see him every month and he often talks of events in the past.
For those of you who have not read his book yet, it is a very good read.
Best Wishes
Danuta (Micheals daughter)

[Kovalski]

easily defeated her antiquated forces - the Polish cavalry were armed with sabres.


Maybe I'm oversensitive, but it annoys me everytime I read such a bullshit.

Here's some basic explanation:
"[...] In contrast with its traditional role in armed conflicts of the past (even in the Polish-Bolshevik War), the cavalry was no longer seen as a unit capable of breaking through enemy lines. Instead, it was used as a mobile reserve of the Polish armies and was using mostly infantry tactics: the soldiers dismounted before the battle and fought as a standard (yet fast) infantry. Technically speaking, in 1939 Poland had 11 brigades of mounted infantry and no units of cavalry as such.

Although the cavalrymen retained their sabres, after 1937 the lance was dropped and it was issued to cavalrymen as a weapon of choice only. Instead, the cavalry units were equipped with modern armament, including 75 mm guns, tankettes, 37mm AT guns, 40mm AA guns, anti-tank rifles and other pieces of modern weaponry [...]"

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry

[Dantedanuta]

I take it that you have read the book all the way through and so you are in a position to comment. My father took me to the Vistula River where the fighting took place and with tears in his eyes he told me his memories of that day. All I can say is that he was one of the men fighting that day so he will maybe know the facts better than you do.
Best Wishes

[Egorka]

Although the cavalrymen retained their sabres, after 1937 the lance was dropped and it was issued to cavalrymen as a weapon of choice only. Instead, the cavalry units were equipped with modern armament, including 75 mm guns, tankettes, 37mm AT guns, 40mm AA guns, anti-tank rifles and other pieces of modern weaponry [...]"
Kovalski, I really in doubt... think yourself: a tankette is much heavier than a lance. How were the Polish cavalry men suppose to hold them in their hands during the cavalry charge of the enemy formations?

[Egorka]

The book looks to be really intersting. Thanks for the tip.

[Kovalski]

I take it that you have read the book all the way through and so you are in a position to comment. My father took me to the Vistula River where the fighting took place and with tears in his eyes he told me his memories of that day. All I can say is that he was one of the men fighting that day so he will maybe know the facts better than you do.
Best Wishes

I really apologize, if you took my post as an comment to your father's book. That's a misunderstanding. The only thing I was commenting was Jan Fiala's post about equipment of polish cavalry.
You are absolutely right that I'm not in position to comment a book or what your father experienced. And even if I was, I wouldn't dare to do that.

I would like also take the opportunity and express my deepest respect and gratitude to your father.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[Kovalski]

Kovalski, I really in doubt... think yourself: a tankette is much heavier than a lance. How were the Polish cavalry men suppose to hold them in their hands during the cavalry charge of the enemy formations?

Do you think they were throwing the tankettes on the Germans???

[Dantedanuta]

It is ok, I was a bit upset because i know what my father has been through, but it is really unbelievable what happened to people in those dark days. What happened to my father did not stop at the finish of the book, much, much more happened. Glad I was not born in those times.
Still best Wishes
Danuta

[Egorka]

Do you think they were throwing the tankettes on the Germans???
No, of course, not. Throwing a tankette is even harder than holding it during a cavalry charge.
.
.
.
Kovalski, it is joke...

[Chevan]

Michael Krupa was born into a poor family in south-west Poland, and in his teens was accepted into a Jesuit seminary. He ran away before taking his final vows and joined the army. Soon afterwards, the German tanks rolled into Poland and easily defeated her antiquated forces - the Polish cavalry were armed with sabres. Krupa survived Hitler's invasion, but was arrested in Soviet-occupied eastern Poland and accused of spying. After enduring torture in Moscow's notorious Lubianka prison, he was sentenced to ten years' corrective labour and deported to the Pechora Gulag. Most prisoners there were worked and starved to death within a year. But Krupa managed again to escape, and in the chaos following the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union made one of the most extraordinary journeys of the war - from Siberia to safety in Afghanistan. Krupa's Jesuit training had given him an inner strength and resilience which enabled him to survive in the face of appalling brutality and cruelty. Luck and the kindness of strangers helped him complete his epic journey to freedom. The story of the suffering inflicted on millions in Stalin's camps has been told before - but Krupa's story is remarkable and unique. He retells his gruelling and traumatic experiences with clarity, honesty and courage, never overdramatising.


Semms a great book, at least your comment sound so.
Have you read it?
I have a question, what he did in Auganistan?In what year has he escaped there?

[Chevan]

Maybe I'm oversensitive, but it annoys me everytime I read such a bullshit.


Me too mate:)
In fact the Soviet cavalry was one of the most mobile and effective troops during the early years 1941-42.
Even the Mainstein in his memours "Lost Battles" has whote abour cavalry with the respect.
It was real power if to know how to use it right.

[Chevan]

Do you think they were throwing the tankettes on the Germans???
Well ...yes :)
if to to watch at the the final resault of their battles:)

[Chevan]

Kovalski, it is joke...
Stop joking in such way mate:)
There are the few things that are forbidden for joking in discussion with Kovalski...
This is too sensitive for our friend..
Lets better joke about "Eastern Poland" and "millions in Stalin's camps":)

[Kovalski]

Sometimes I think you would be a great comedian or a clown at least ;)

[Chevan]

Does it worry you too much my friend;)?

[Kovalski]

Does it worry you too much my friend;)?

Absolutely not!
I'm so proud of you!:)

[Dantedanuta]

Semms a great book, at least your comment sound so.
Have you read it?
I have a question, what he did in Auganistan?In what year has he escaped there?

The book was edited by Thomas Lane (Historian/Lecturer at Bradford University) he has wrote a foreword with dates ect, maybe you answer is in this.

[BAR_GUNNER]

Maybe I'm oversensitive, but it annoys me everytime I read such a bullshit.

Here's some basic explanation:
"[...] In contrast with its traditional role in armed conflicts of the past (even in the Polish-Bolshevik War), the cavalry was no longer seen as a unit capable of breaking through enemy lines. Instead, it was used as a mobile reserve of the Polish armies and was using mostly infantry tactics: the soldiers dismounted before the battle and fought as a standard (yet fast) infantry. Technically speaking, in 1939 Poland had 11 brigades of mounted infantry and no units of cavalry as such.

Although the cavalrymen retained their sabres, after 1937 the lance was dropped and it was issued to cavalrymen as a weapon of choice only. Instead, the cavalry units were equipped with modern armament, including 75 mm guns, tankettes, 37mm AT guns, 40mm AA guns, anti-tank rifles and other pieces of modern weaponry [...]"

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry


Although technically more correct, in my opinion, these weapons were not of much use. Not everything in wikipedia is historically accurate either, there are many errors, they even ask those who have information to correct it. The Tanks, Aircraft, and a much larger, better trained German army rolled right over them... Just as they rolled over the trenches and army in France. If it had not been for the winter in Russia, they might have done the same.

[BAR_GUNNER]

A more correct description may have been the weapons were from WWI, which is what we read in the Boston newspapers said during the time they took Poland.

[Kovalski]

Although technically more correct, in my opinion, these weapons were not of much use. Not everything in wikipedia is historically accurate either, there are many errors, they even ask those who have information to correct it. The Tanks, Aircraft, and a much larger, better trained German army rolled right over them... Just as they rolled over the trenches and army in France. If it had not been for the winter in Russia, they might have done the same.

Maybe you're right. Maybe all these AT weapons were not in wide use, as Poles wanted them to be. But lances and sabres were not of much use, at all. They were left with the horses during a battle. It is up to you if you believe and repeat the lies of nazi propaganda.

And few links to clarify (not a wiki links):
http://warandgame.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/polish-cavalry-myth/
http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/cinema/rzepinski.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History_05/Strasnov_131005.html
http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss.html

Cheers,
Kovalski

[Chevan]

The book was edited by Thomas Lane (Historian/Lecturer at Bradford University) he has wrote a foreword with dates ect, maybe you answer is in this.
Well unfortinally i did not read this book yet, and this is not easy to order it via the internet in English.
So may be you could give me the few answers, please.
So what he did in Afganistan?
As i know the most of the Polish prisoners have been sended to the Iran in 1942 to from the Army of Anders according the Soviet-British-Polish agreements.To take fight agains Nazy later.
But why has you father escaped to the Afganistan?

[Chevan]

... If it had not been for the winter in Russia, they might have done the same.
Hardly they might have captured the whole Russia as the done with Europe.
Even without influence of Winter.

[Dantedanuta]

Well unfortinally i did not read this book yet, and this is not easy to order it via the internet in English.
So may be you could give me the few answers, please.
So what he did in Afganistan?
As i know the most of the Polish prisoners have been sended to the Iran in 1942 to from the Army of Anders according the Soviet-British-Polish agreements.To take fight agains Nazy later.
But why has you father escaped to the Afganistan?

Again you will have to get hold of the book, my father is now 93 and his memory is not as it was.

[BAR_GUNNER]

Hardly they might have captured the whole Russia as the done with Europe.
Even without influence of Winter.

Yep, just what I said... they rolled over Poland, and except for winter, they may have done the same in Russia. By the time it warmed up, lend lease was supplying the Russians with weapons, ammo, and food to help them. My Father in Law was a merchant seaman on a ship delivering supplies. The north sea was also a terrible place to be in winter, they did what had to be done. The Merchant Marine did one heck of a job, and hardly gets any credit at all.

[Chevan]

Yep, just what I said... they rolled over Poland, and except for winter, they may have done the same in Russia. By the time it warmed up, lend lease was supplying the Russians with weapons, ammo, and food to help them. My Father in Law was a merchant seaman on a ship delivering supplies. The north sea was also a terrible place to be in winter, they did what had to be done. The Merchant Marine did one heck of a job, and hardly gets any credit at all.
Lend lise did not play a serious role untill the begin of 1943, so the most critical battles like for Moscow ( dec 1941) or Stalingrad ( dec 1942) has been won without lend lise.
The peak of Lend lise supplies was in the 1943-44 during the Great Soviet offensives. It helped a lot.
And you right the Nothern Merchant fleet did a heck of a job.Especially in the 1942-43 when the Krigsmarine sinked about 20% of supplies ships in average.

[BAR_GUNNER]

Many write histories of Battles long after the fact.
Ive been reading every history of every country I could get my hands on, since I was about nine. Used to read an average of 3-4 books a week. From Australia to Africa, to Germany, to New Zealand, to Russia, etc. During this time, after actually experiencing combat, Ive come to the conclusion that most Histories have a lot of misinformation and are slanted. Slanted to back up the authors country, or beliefs, and the the best books about combat, are written by those who Lived them.

Their viewpoint may be small, focused on their personal experiences, but their experiences also tend to be much the same, as the rest of the men in the Battle and more realistic. Especially those written by men like Col David Hackworth, who told it like it really was in Korea and Vietnam. But, Hackworth's books are better than most, as he served as an EM, earned a battlefield commission, then earned his promotions in every rank, up to Colonel. He never became a General, only due to his protests in the Vietnam War, after his service there.

There is much about him at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth
There are some errors, mostly minor ones like saying he went to Korea as a Sgt, he actually was a Corporal, and was promoted before long. We were attached to the 25th Div several times, and I got to meet him when he still was a Sgt. Learned quite a bit from him, and recommend all of his books.

[BAR_GUNNER]

Lend lise did not play a serious role untill the begin of 1943, so the most critical battles like for Moscow ( dec 1941) or Stalingrad ( dec 1942) has been won without lend lise.
The peak of Lend lise supplies was in the 1943-44 during the Great Soviet offensives. It helped a lot.
And you right the Nothern Merchant fleet did a heck of a job.Especially in the 1942-43 when the Krigsmarine sinked about 20% of supplies ships in average.

Right, though Lend Lease begin slowly, as the US had to begin tooling up to supply huge quantities such long distances. At first there were a lot of protests about sending help to Russia. Many of various ethnic groups were against them, because they had joined with Germany. But Roosevelt overcame the objections, and got Congress to approve shipments.

They had to first build the ships to carry it, and train men to be the crews. Merchant ships we already had, were committed to other areas. In early days, only, food and medical supplies were in the first shipments. Later the trucks, tanks, aircraft, etc.. and everything else

Early battles for Moscow or Stalingrad were won I believe, due mainly to the ability of the Russians to remain stoic and make major _sacrifices_ in the face of the such odds. When it comes to such situations people do what they must do, and they did it.

[Chevan]

Many write histories of Battles long after the fact.
Ive been reading every history of every country I could get my hands on, since I was about nine. Used to read an average of 3-4 books a week. From Australia to Africa, to Germany, to New Zealand, to Russia, etc. During this time, after actually experiencing combat, Ive come to the conclusion that most Histories have a lot of misinformation and are slanted. Slanted to back up the authors country, or beliefs, and the the best books about combat, are written by those who Lived them.

Their viewpoint may be small, focused on their personal experiences, but their experiences also tend to be much the same, as the rest of the men in the Battle and more realistic. Especially those written by men like Col David Hackworth, who told it like it really was in Korea and Vietnam. But, Hackworth's books are better than most, as he served as an EM, earned a battlefield commission, then earned his promotions in every rank, up to Colonel. He never became a General, only due to his protests in the Vietnam War, after his service there.

There is much about him at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth
There are some errors, mostly minor ones like saying he went to Korea as a Sgt, he actually was a Corporal, and was promoted before long. We were attached to the 25th Div several times, and I got to meet him when he still was a Sgt. Learned quite a bit from him, and recommend all of his books.
This is a good new for me that we have one more experiensed and historically educated member like you.
Thank you and welcome on the board.
i/m absolutly agree that to any author have tend to be biased and non objective in more or less degree.
So we need to compare and study as much sources as we can to learn the true.
3-4 book per week, oh be careful for your sight:)
Usially i read one book per mounth:)
Plus i have the certain number om my favorite book , must for re-reading periodically.
But the most informative my source is a media datas from internet:text, photo and video.
Recently , for instance,i've downloaded the great parts of Deutsche Wothenshau fro detail study.

[Chevan]

Right, though Lend Lease begin slowly, as the US had to begin tooling up to supply huge quantities such long distances. At first there were a lot of protests about sending help to Russia. Many of various ethnic groups were against them, because they had joined with Germany. But Roosevelt overcame the objections, and got Congress to approve shipments.

I've heard that in the USA there were a lot of protests of certain groups of peoples even agains war with Germany.
The points of isolationists and domestic nazy-sympiaties were still strong.
At least we know for sure neither in 1939 , nor in 1941 the USA did not officially wish to support their British ally in war against Germany.( althought Germans almost openly began to sink the American supplies ship).

They had to first build the ships to carry it, and train men to be the crews. Merchant ships we already had, were committed to other areas. In early days, only, food and medical supplies were in the first shipments. Later the trucks, tanks, aircraft, etc.. and everything else

Early battles for Moscow or Stalingrad were won I believe, due mainly to the ability of the Russians to remain stoic and make major _sacrifices_ in the face of the such odds. When it comes to such situations people do what they must do, and they did it.
I think you right thank you.

[BAR_GUNNER]

This is a good new for me that we have one more experiensed and historically educated member like you.
Thank you and welcome on the board.
i/m absolutly agree that to any author have tend to be biased and non objective in more or less degree.
So we need to compare and study as much sources as we can to learn the true.
3-4 book per week, oh be careful for your sight:)
Usially i read one book per mounth:)
Plus i have the certain number om my favorite book , must for re-reading periodically.
But the most informative my source is a media datas from internet:text, photo and video.
Recently , for instance,i've downloaded the great parts of Deutsche Wothenshau fro detail study.

At 78, don't read as much as I used to, lately too many books seem like re-writes of others, maybe I read them before and forgot. :-) But I do like to re-read my favorites. The history, especially the arts, painting and sculpture in particular have been interesting. Would like to have gone to Hermitage in Russia.