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Kato
10-17-2007, 12:56 PM
James D. Watson - an American biochemist who co-discovered the structure of DNA with Francis Crick in 1953 (was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1962). The discovery prompted the development of the molecular biology field and expanded studies in genetics.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/JDWatson_2007-04-30.jpg/320px-JDWatson_2007-04-30.jpg

Dr. Watson signing autographs after a speech at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on April 30, 2007.


Watson, who is a secular humanist, is known for his frank opinions on politics, religion, race and the role of science in society.


In his interview to the Sunday Times Magazine published on October 14, 2007, he opined that there is scientific and anecdotal evidence supporting racial differences, such as, (among other things), the statistically lower scores of black people on some intelligence tests.

He says that he is "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really," and I know that this "hot potato" is going to be difficult to address. His hope is that everyone is equal, but he counters that "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true."

AllHailCesar
10-17-2007, 01:46 PM
"Hot Potato".......talk about an understatment!

pdf27
10-17-2007, 03:44 PM
IIRC he has a book signing tour coming up - coincidence?

The problem with research like this is that it really isn't worth a lot unless you rule out all factors other than genetics - which he appears not to have done. Nutrition, schooling, etc. are all critical to the development of intelligence. Furthermore, IQ testing itself is a very subjective "science" - it is rather hard to set up a test which is totally neutral to background. Rather a lot of them require a good grasp of reading and numeracy, which simply isn't taught over much of Africa for reasons of simple poverty.

Nickdfresh
10-17-2007, 06:20 PM
Yeah, um, I believe there is something called "cultural bias" regarding such tests. And one needs to look no further than the inequality of school funding to guess which kids will perform better on an IQ test or a university...

It's about money, not natural selection, as indeed, whites coming from a "low-socioeconomic background" will also generally perform poorly...

And Nobel Prize or no, one may be highly intelligent in one area, and a complete idiot-savant in general...

Kato
10-18-2007, 07:48 AM
Yeah, um, I believe there is something called "cultural bias" regarding such tests. And one needs to look no further than the inequality of school funding to guess which kids will perform better on an IQ test or a university...
It's about money, not natural selection, as indeed, whites coming from a "low-socioeconomic background" will also generally perform poorly...

...


The academic results depend on personal abilities, talents and commitment to study. Poor school funding, low incomes of parents, even some hostile social environment have never been crucial and often become additional insentive to study.

Chevan
10-18-2007, 07:58 AM
He says that he is "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really," and I know that this "hot potato" is going to be difficult to address. His hope is that everyone is equal, but he counters that "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true."

Excelente mst Racist dr.Watson;)
It's interesting what ethnical groups belong he themself?
Is he arian?

Kato
10-18-2007, 08:59 AM
Evidently all the objections to Mr Watson will be traditionally reduced to personal attacks.

Man of Stoat
10-18-2007, 09:11 AM
Black people generally have larger wedding tackle compared to Asians. Is that also racist?

Black people are more likely to have sickle cell anaemia, a genetic disease, than whites. Is that also racist?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 09:54 AM
The academic results depend on personal abilities, talents and commitment to study. Poor school funding, low incomes of parents, even some hostile social environment have never been crucial and often become additional insentive to study.

Um dude, I was a trained teacher. I wasn't a very good one (at the secondary level) I'll admit, but I beg of you to spare me the the utter shit that this savant spews is somehow a confirmation of some idiotic racial superiority theory. The factors of class inequality, poverty, and lack of a stable family-life are far greater factors to the formation if "IQ" than are any inherent genetic or sexual superiorities regarding intellect. You also need to factor in things such as the "dominate/dominated culture" theory(I forget the exact term) that show some inherent rejections of what is perceived and "the man's" education by certain minorities..

This is just the nature vs. nurture argument, which has been shown to be largely bullshit in so many social experiments, including where inner-city US kids go to special schools that are highly funded and incorporate special techniques where they are "taught" how to outperform their suburban (mostly white) counterparts by apealing to their competitive spirit...

If he was truthful with his DNA stuff, then he'd admit that there are Africans that are closer genetically to Scandinavian blonds than they are too other black Africans, and vice versa...

Oh, and by the way, I also would not confuse drive & work ethic with potential intelligence either - since not all kids that do well in school as evidenced by high marks, are necessarily "smart." IMO

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 09:58 AM
The academic results depend on personal abilities, talents and commitment to study. Poor school funding, low incomes of parents, even some hostile social environment have never been crucial and often become additional insentive to study.

Uh, no. "Commitment to study" is a "learned behavior" incorporated via "modeling" by a parental role-model. What happens when there is no proper "role-model?" What happens when the teachers really don't teach, have no textbooks or ones that are old and falling apart?

Oh, I forgot, a (edited PK) school located next to a chemical dump in some inner-city shithole, with one-fourth the funding of the counterpart suburban school, is supposed to yield the exact same test results...:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 10:05 AM
Anyone who really wants to study this needs a more balanced view. Read "Savage Inequalities" (http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Inequalities-Children-Americas-Schools/dp/0060974990) by Johnathon Kozol...

Firefly
10-18-2007, 10:11 AM
Such language Nick! Mind you I agree with all of what you said though. And PDF for that matter. Intelligence and IQ is very subjective and a hard thing to pin down. Why does Africa do so badly? Well the answer is surely in front of us and in a lot of cases down to us too.

Rising Sun*
10-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Black people generally have larger wedding tackle compared to Asians. Is that also racist?


No, but some Asians might think it unfair. So, a bit like IQ tests, they might develop scaled rulers that make sure that their dongers are at least as big as African dongers.

As distinct from black dongers, because African pygmies are black without being too impressive in the wedding tackle department.

Melanesians are black but, despite their impressive and often curled penis gourds, they're not huge in the donger department. If they were, they wouldn't need to advertise with the penis gourds.

The race superiority issue is quite easy to prove. You get a twenty year old bloke from the backblocks of the Sudan and a ten year old, either brand, from Belfast.

Get two identical cars and give each bloke a key that will open the car assigned to them, and tell them to start it. The Sudanese, having spent all his life in a grass and plastic sheet hut in a refugee camp where there weren't any locks on their primitive shelters, will ponder what the key is for. The Irish kid, having grown up in the civilised West, will look at the key and think "I'm not starting the car. When you do that, they blow up."

As neither of them starts the car, the objective assessment of the intelligence task proves that a twenty year old Sudanese is only as smart as a ten year old Irish kid.

The researchers, energised by this result, then gave keys to a potato, a rock and cuckoo. The potato and the rock didn't start the car, but the cuckoo took the key without starting the car. This proves that a twenty year old Sudanese and a ten year old Irish kid are no smarter than a potato or rock, but cuckoos are thieves.

Therefore, the UN shouldn't devote any more attention to resolving conflicts in the Sudan or Ireland than it does to wars between potatoes, while cuckoos are a local problem best left to police who aren't Sudanese, Irish, potatoes, or rocks.

This is racial science at its logical best. :D

Kato
10-18-2007, 10:42 AM
Uh, no. "Commitment to study" is a "learned behavior" incorporated via "modeling" by a parental role-model. What happens when there is no proper "role-model?"

There are plenty of examples around us that testifies that children of poorly educated, under-previlaged white parents succeed in studyings and acheive brilliant academic results without any "modeling" by a parental role-model or even against parental will.


What happens when the teachers really don't teach, have no textbooks or ones that are old and falling apart?

In the Soviet Union nearly old intelligentsia was either killed
or forced to emigrate in 1917 -21. The conditions of studying in the Soviet Union of 1920-30ss were not better than in some Sudan and much worse than in the most poor negro slum of the modern US.

However, the USSR did not fall behind other states in education and science. It created a powerful military industry, sent first satellite and first man to the space and even the reports issued by CIA stated that an average soviet pupil is much better in natural sciences than his American counterpart.

Kato
10-18-2007, 10:50 AM
Get two identical cars and give each bloke a key that will open the car assigned to them, and tell them to start it. The Sudanese, having spent all his life in a grass and plastic sheet hut in a refugee camp where there weren't any locks on their primitive shelters, will ponder what the key is for. The Irish kid, having grown up in the civilised West, will look at the key and think "I'm not starting the car. When you do that, they blow up."


There are lots of negroes in the USA and western Europe but their academic performance in Maths and natural sciences is not better than the one of a negro who remain in Africa. Actually the black students are almost absent in the departments related to sciences and engineering.

mike M.
10-18-2007, 11:40 AM
Oh, I forgot, a ****ing shit school located next to a chemical dump in some inner-city shithole, with one-fourth the funding of the counterpart suburban school, is supposed to yield the exact same test results...:rolleyes:


Man that sucks Nick..Do you have the names of these two schools you mention? I would like to study them.

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 12:35 PM
Man that sucks Nick..Do you have the names of these two schools you mention? I would like to study them.


Actually, read the book I posted, specifically in the section regarding East St. Louis...

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 12:52 PM
There are plenty of examples around us that testifies that children of poorly educated, under-previlaged white parents succeed in studyings and acheive brilliant academic results without any "modeling" by a parental role-model or even against parental will.

Go ahead and post them then...

There are also instances of African-American "geniuses" as well, and evidence that well educated blacks have performed as well, if not better, than an equivalent white grouping..

But unlike you, I'll actually post some evidence rather than resort to blanket statements, half-truths, and semantics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen


In the Soviet Union nearly old intelligentsia was either killed
or forced to emigrate in 1917 -21. The conditions of studying in the Soviet Union of 1920-30ss were not better than in some Sudan and much worse than in the most poor negro slum of the modern US.

But Marshall Stalin, as well as his predecessor Lenin, co-opted much of the "intelligentsia," as in the 1920s and 30s', it was still fashionable for the intellectual elites to harbor Marxist/Leninist/Trotskyist sympathies and a blinded Utopian view of distopian communism. In fact, many emigrated to the Soviet Union and many more contributed for abroad...

The Soviet authorities also spent a good deal of resources insuring that there was a politicized, educated class that had boundless resources to achieve engineering feats and the like...

Your analogy proves nothing. At the same time, there was a burgeoning American Black middle class that had to attend by and large separate facilities and indeed had to set up a "separate but equal" American as a whole series of "colored" newspapers, sports leagues, as even equality in the military, as society, was denied them. Black writers, musicians, and yes -even scientists - contributed greatly to the US cultural record, and to Europe as well, through the only effective avenues that were open to them, despite these hurdles..


However, the USSR did not fall behind other states in education and science. It created a powerful military industry, sent first satellite and first man to the space and even the reports issued by CIA stated that an average soviet pupil is much better in natural sciences than his American counterpart.

Again, because the USSR poured great resources into education and to selectively finding those that had various potentials, and used those of lessor intellect as labor, and even political dissidents as slave labor, to industrialize their country. Not even remotely similar. And many of those that left the USSR were hardly "intelligentsia," many were just aristocrats turned out of power...

And by the same token, the Russians dominated the Soviet Union, and the Ukraine. does that mean that Russians are inherently more intelligent than other nationalities?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 12:58 PM
There are lots of negroes in the USA and western Europe but their academic performance in Maths and natural sciences is not better than the one of a negro who remain in Africa. Actually the black students are almost absent in the departments related to sciences and engineering.

How could you even directly compare the three educational systems? :rolleyes:

And are blacks better musicians than whites? Would anyone say that being a very good musician does not take a great deal of intelligence? Why is their contribution of the cultural record of music, not only to the United States, but of Europe as well, be so undeniably great then?

Kato
10-18-2007, 01:11 PM
There are also instances of African-American "geniuses" as well, and evidence that well educated blacks have performed as well, if not better, than an equivalent white grouping..


I would like to learn the names of these African-American "geniuses". I does not mean African-American "geniuses" like Martin L King who as FBI and police reports show was frequently caught drunk while driving his car, beat and humiliated his women and plagiarized his thesis.

I mean African-American "geniuses" who have made some achievments in Science or Engineering, created some useful inventions, discovered some Phisical or Mathematical law or theorem, won at least one international contest on Maths or Natural Sciences.

Kato
10-18-2007, 01:19 PM
And are blacks better musicians than whites? Would anyone say that being a very good musician does not take a great deal of intelligence? Why is their contribution of the cultural record of music, not only to the United States, but of Europe as well, be so undeniably great then?

Let's focus on Maths, Natural Sciences, engineering, programming. These fields of knowledge are the most crucial for the human civilisation and the ones that enable us to enjoy high standards of living or at least don't starve like Africans.

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 01:20 PM
I would like to learn the names of these African-American "geniuses". I does not mean African-American "geniuses" like Martin L King who as FBI and police reports show was frequently caught drunk while driving his car, beat and humiliated his women and plagiarized his thesis.

What would that have to do with being a "genius?" A lot of "geniuses" are troubled, and have problems with the law, lovers, chemical dependency, etc....

Hoover wore a dress and heals on occasion, and was probably gayer than Liberace at Boyscout camp. Did that make him less intelligent?

And the King slander you've just recited is mostly bullshit. He had many affairs, but so did Kennedy...


I mean African-American "geniuses" who have made some achievments in Science or Engineering, created some useful inventions, discovered some Phisical or Mathematical law or theorem, won at least one international contest on Maths or Natural Sciences.

http://www.biography.com/blackhistory/101-facts.jsp Just click. :rolleyes:

But here's a tangible one off the top of my head:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Drew

And then of course, there's the writers like Richard Wright or Maya Angelou...

And, I seriously think at this point, this thread is turning into unbridled racism as the willful ignorance on display is appalling... :rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 01:21 PM
Let's focus on Maths, Natural Sciences, engineering, programming. These fields of knowledge are the most crucial for the human civilisation and the ones that enable us to enjoy high standards of living or at least don't starve like Africans.


You mean like the "stupid" Ukrainians who let themselves be starved? :rolleyes: (irony)

George Eller
10-18-2007, 01:23 PM
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Category:African Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_Americans

African-American scientists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African-American_scientists

African American academics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_American_academics

Advanced Google Search - "african-american scientists"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=+%22african-american+scientists%22&btnG=Search

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Kato
10-18-2007, 01:27 PM
You mean like the "stupid" Ukrainians who let themselves be starved? (irony)


And who starve Africans today? I wonder how many mass hunger were in Africa when African countries were colonies?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 01:31 PM
And who starve Africans today?

Other Africans? With the aid of the colonial legacy which created an entire continent of nations with little regard to natural geographical boundries, tribal history, or nationality, or religious beliefs (other than whatever European colonial nation happened to blunder in wherever first).


I wonder how many mass hunger were in Africa when african countries were colonies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casement_Report

:rolleyes:

BTW, we know that European whites are intellectually superior gentile souls that never start wars or put people into gas chambers based on stereotypes and paranoia...

Kato
10-18-2007, 01:46 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/76/Charles_R_Drew.jpg/150px-Charles_R_Drew.jpg[/IMG]

He looks like mulatto. Perhaps he had some distant black ancestor.



He researched in the field of blood transfusions, developing improved techniques for blood storage, and applied his expert knowledge in developing large-scale blood banks early in World War II.

"developing improved techniques for blood storage" and what out of it?

We can say that any student while working over his thesis research and develop something.


The science and practice of blood transfusion had developed from early work including preserving whole blood in refrigerated storage in World War I (see Oswald Hope Robertson) and the practice of having hospital "blood banks" was developed(see Bernard Fantus) much earlier.

Drake
10-18-2007, 01:50 PM
Hmm, very thin ice indeed. There are differences in certain human subtypes as a result of natural selection of some 10000 years since homo sapiens left africa, skin color is a prominent example or lactose insufficiency in asians etc. but I doubt this difference actually reached the brain. It already had todays size 170.000 years ago(actually smaller than homo neandertalis', but more synapses).
The difference in the actual utilization of the given potential are imho more cultural and social than biological. What I think is much more interesting for the future is the fact that we as homo sapiens no longer follow the rules of evolution, but multiply rather uncontrolled. Imho sooner or later homo sapiens will have to work on his own genetic code to prevent degeneration, which is a very interesting ethical field of discussion.

Kato
10-18-2007, 01:52 PM
BTW, we know that European whites are intellectually superior gentile souls that never start wars or put people into gas chambers based on stereotypes and paranoia...

You are right. Gas chamber was a technological luxury for Africa
There was a number of African countries in the 1960-80) whose presidents, senior officials were cannibals and eat the members of their governments as well as ordinary locals. Not to mention the general tradition of cannibalism among ordinary inhabitants of Africa.

Drake
10-18-2007, 02:11 PM
How could you even directly compare the three educational systems? :rolleyes:

And are blacks better musicians than whites? Would anyone say that being a very good musician does not take a great deal of intelligence? Why is their contribution of the cultural record of music, not only to the United States, but of Europe as well, be so undeniably great then?

In the name of Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Wagner, Hendl, Haidn (to name just a few classic german ones) and countless other europeans I would like to point out, that the european type homo sapiens are capable to produce fine musicians themselves :mrgreen:.

pdf27
10-18-2007, 02:24 PM
Black people generally have larger wedding tackle compared to Asians. Is that also racist?
Probably, in that I've never actually seen a statistically significant study demonstrating this.


Black people are more likely to have sickle cell anaemia, a genetic disease, than whites. Is that also racist?
Nope. There is good statistical evidence to prove this, even linking the disorder to a particular population in Africa (West Africa IIRC).

pdf27
10-18-2007, 02:25 PM
Why does Africa do so badly? Well the answer is surely in front of us and in a lot of cases down to us too.
The answer can frequently be found in various Swiss banks too...

mike M.
10-18-2007, 02:36 PM
Oh, I forgot, a ****ing shit school located next to a chemical dump in some inner-city shithole, with one-fourth the funding of the counterpart suburban school, is supposed to yield the exact same test results...:rolleyes:


Man that sucks Nick..Do you have the names of these two schools you mention? I would like to study them.


Actually, read the book I posted, specifically in the section regarding East St. Louis...



Actually, I dont have that book, are you saying I have to buy a book online to get your answer? Do you have the names of these two schools you are talking about or are you just embellishing a bit?

Kato
10-18-2007, 02:39 PM
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African-American scientists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African-American_scientists

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I follow this thread about black scientists.


And I found out that


Thomas Monroe Campbell was the first Cooperative Extension Agent in the United States and headed the first Extension Program as a field agent for the U.S. Department of Agriculture.




What does he have to do with science?



George Washington Carver (July 12, 1864 – January 5, 1943)[1] was an American botanical researcher and agronomy educator who worked in agricultural extension at the Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama, teaching former slaves farming techniques for self-sufficiency.

Much of Carver's fame was based on his research and promotion of alternative crops to cotton, such as peanuts and sweet potatoes. He wanted poor farmers to grow alternative crops as both a source of their own food and a cash crop.

Yeah, another great black scientist. One should be a scientist to pursuade africans to grow peanuts and sweet potatoes.




Mark Dean is the first African-American to become an IBM Fellow. In 1997, he was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame. Currently, he is an IBM Vice President overseeing the company's Almaden Research Center in San Jose, California. As a high-ranked manager they say that he led a team that developed the interior architecture (ISA systems bus) that enables multiple devices, such as modems and printers, to be connected to personal computers.

His contribution to this invention is unknow. It is quite possible that he played only some administrative role as a manager.



Sylvester James Gates, Jr. is a noted American theoretical physicist. He received BS and PhD degrees from MIT, the latter in 1977. His doctoral thesis was the first thesis at MIT to deal with supersymmetry. Gates is currently the John S. Toll Professor of Physics at the University of Maryland, College Park. He is known for his work on supersymmetry, supergravity, and superstring theory.

His main achievement that received BS and PhD degrees from MIT.
Let's call each person who has BS and PhD degrees from MIT a great scientist.
One knows about the policy of "positive descrimination" when Afro-Americans
are promoted in spite of their academic results



Mae Carol Jemison, M.D. (born 17 October 1956) is an American physician and a former NASA astronaut. She became the first Black woman to travel in space when she went into orbit aboard the Space Shuttle Endeavour on September 12, 1992.

Another scientist who turned out to be not a scientist but a NASA astronaut.

Animals were the first in space and what out of it?



Ernest Everett Just (August 14, 1883 – October 27, 1941) was a pioneering black U.S. biologist. Just spent his adult life collecting, classifying, and caring for his marine specimens. He believed that scientists should study whole cells under normal conditions, rather than simply breaking them apart in a laboratory setting.

So what? Each person spends life on something. Where are the results

Hehry Cecil McBay - just a teacher.

Ronald Erwin McNair - another austronaut


Neil deGrasse Tyson (b. October 5, 1958 in New York City) is an astrophysicist and, since 1996, the Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History on Manhattan's Upper West Side. Since 2006, he has hosted PBS's educational TV show NOVA scienceNOW.

Another great scientist or rather a Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History on Manhattan's and TV showman?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 02:48 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/76/Charles_R_Drew.jpg/150px-Charles_R_Drew.jpg[/IMG]

He looks like mulatto. Perhaps he had some distant black ancestor.

Nope. If you have 1/16th "colored" blood in your veins, one is considered black...


"developing improved techniques for blood storage" and what out of it?

We can say that any student while working over his thesis research and develop something.

LMFAO! Now you're going to quibble over semantics again? his research saved lives. What greater benefit of science is there for mankind...


The science and practice of blood transfusion had developed from early work including preserving whole blood in refrigerated storage in World War I (see Oswald Hope Robertson) and the practice of having hospital "blood banks" was developed(see Bernard Fantus) much earlier.

But they didn't separate the red blood cells out of the plasma, which shortened the shelf-life...

Nice troll though...

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 02:50 PM
You are right. Gas chamber was a technological luxury for Africa
There was a number of African countries in the 1960-80) whose presidents, senior officials were cannibals and eat the members of their governments as well as ordinary locals. Not to mention the general tradition of cannibalism among ordinary inhabitants of Africa.

So did the Japanese during WWII. Did that stop them from being the preeminent technological power from the 1970s to the 1990s?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 02:54 PM
Actually, I dont have that book, are you saying I have to buy a book online to get your answer? Do you have the names of these two schools you are talking about or are you just embellishing a bit?

Sorry Mike. The book is in storage, and I don't feel like pulling it out for you by driving a couple hundred miles.

Do we have a problem Mike? Did you take numerous education courses and read literally dozens of books on this and related subjects?

Have I ever given you cause to think otherwise?

BTW, I noticed you haven't questioned any of Kato's "embellishments," Mike.

But I guess you accept his "answers," huh Mike?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 02:57 PM
In the name of Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Wagner, Hendl, Haidn (to name just a few classic german ones) and countless other europeans I would like to point out, that the european type homo sapiens are capable to produce fine musicians themselves :mrgreen:.

I never said they didn't. Did I?

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 03:10 PM
I follow this thread about black scientists.


And I found out that






What does he have to do with science?

Well, if you weren't essentially a cherrypicking, ignorant racist, you'd be able to figure out that his position, he was decisive in increasing crop yields and led research and theory on such. I once watched an excellent documentary on him...

I mean, whatever would agricultural research have to do with science?

If these men were white, you'd never think twice at trying to qualify their credentials...



Yeah, another great black scientist. One should be a scientist to pursuade africans to grow peanuts and sweet potatoes.

Oh, sweet! Just like Stalin should help Ukrainians to grow more wheat to feed themselves?




His main achievement that received BS and PhD degrees from MIT.
Let's call each person who has BS and PhD degrees from MIT a great scientist.
One knows about the policy of "positive descrimination" when Afro-Americans
are promoted in spite of their academic results


:rolleyes:


Another scientist who turned out to be not a scientist but a NASA astronaut.

Animals were the first in space and what out of it?

Well, if you had a clue about the space program, you'd know that ALL ASTRONAUTS are now mission specialists and are considered scientists for the most part, because they perform experiments...


So what? Each person spends life on something. Where are the results

Hehry Cecil McBay - just a teacher.

Like most "scientists" are?


Ronald Erwin McNair - another austronaut

Another great scientist or rather a Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History on Manhattan's and TV showman?

It's spelled "astronaut," and I think I explained this already...

Extraordinary, you've pulled out a few of the scientists, who often had to work twice as hard to achieve their positions because ignorant racists wouldn't even hire them...


BTW, what great things have Ukrainian nationalists done? (besides get owned by Stalin, collaborate with Nazis, and slaughter Polish children?)

George Eller
10-18-2007, 03:17 PM
I follow this thread about black scientists.


Mark Dean is the first African-American to become an IBM Fellow. In 1997, he was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame. Currently, he is an IBM Vice President overseeing the company's Almaden Research Center in San Jose, California. As a high-ranked manager they say that he led a team that developed the interior architecture (ISA systems bus) that enables multiple devices, such as modems and printers, to be connected to personal computers.

His contribution to this invention is unknow. It is quite possible that he played only some administrative role as a manager.


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Kato, it seems that you left this part out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Dean

Mark Dean (born March 2, 1957) is an inventor and a computer scientist. He holds three of the nine original IBM patents upon which the IBM PC personal computers were based. He led the team that developed the ISA bus, and he led the design team responsible for creating the first one-gigahertz computer processor chip.

African Americans in the Sciences
https://webfiles.uci.edu/mcbrown/display/faces.html

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Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 03:22 PM
I wouldn't bother wasting your time George. Kato's already made up his mind, no information will change our friend's mind.:)

George Eller
10-18-2007, 03:28 PM
I wouldn't bother wasting your time George. Kato's already made up his mind, not information will change our friend's mind.:)
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I figured as much, but thought I would point out an example of his cherry picking. :)

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Drake
10-18-2007, 04:35 PM
The answer can frequently be found in various Swiss banks too...

Yeah, accounts of either african dictators or warlords and of course arms dealers. Just recently read africans have spend pretty much all financial aid they received from the first world over the past 15 years in weapons.

mike M.
10-18-2007, 04:41 PM
Sorry Mike. The book is in storage, and I don't feel like pulling it out for you by driving a couple hundred miles.

#1 Do we have a problem Mike? #2 Did you take numerous education courses and read literally dozens of books on this and related subjects?

#3 Have I ever given you cause to think otherwise?

#4 BTW, I noticed you haven't questioned any of Kato's "embellishments," Mike.

#5 But I guess you accept his "answers," huh Mike?


#1..A problem with what? Me wanting the names of the two schools you mention indicates me as having a problem? You posted like you know about these two schools.
#2 .. I've taken lots of education courses..not about the American public school system but I live in Los Angeles and don't see the big discrepancies between the black and white schools you seem to be trying to pass off as NORMAL.. You can provide public schools for kids but you cant make anyone study and do their homework.
#3.. No I don't think so...wait..think otherwise about what????
#4..Your right but I also haven't questioned chevan about what he writes, that doesn't mean I agree with everything he writes either.
#5..Which answers you talking about? I guess some I do... some I don't.

Relax Nick..I'm not saying there have never been any public schools shorted while other schools nearby get more than the other, I'm just saying there is more to the story, it didn't happen because one was a white school and the other was a black school. Maybe paperwork didn't get filed requesting funds..who knows..but there is no big conspiracy trying to keep certain people down. I dont care what color a child is..they have to want to learn.

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 05:21 PM
#1..A problem with what? Me wanting the names of the two schools you mention indicates me as having a problem? You posted like you know about these two schools.

You seem really fixated on it though. Quite amazing considering some of the crap spewed in this thread that you chose only to confront me. I'm really, really sorry I can't remember the name of the school since it's been about eight years since I read the book...

I guess I'm just making it all up. :rolleyes:


#2 .. I've taken lots of education courses..not about the American public school system

What other kinds of "education courses" are there? And you've never read Kozol? He's like standard reading for any education curriculium...


but I live in Los Angeles and don't see the big discrepancies between the black and white schools you seem to be trying to pass off as NORMAL..

What country are you from again? You're serious? You mean you do not realize that the US system of schooling is derived for the local tax base, therebye forming what is institutionalized funding disparity?

Does Beverly Hills High (or whatever) really receive the exact same funds as all schools in say East LA? (which I'm guessing is working class or filled with ethnic poor. But I don't really know the area well)

And I've corresponded and have had friends that have kids in the Los Angeles' schools. I once even spoke too at length with a former record executive about what to do with the problems his kids were having in their decrepit schools. I think he was going for the "magnet school" last I heard...

In any case, I didn't mention any "Los Angeles," schools. So what is your beef exactly? (I bet I can guess:)) I mentioned "east St. Louis," and Newark, NJ also springs to mind now as serious problem school districts used as a case study in the book, your amazing ancedotal experiences not withstanding. In any case, if you have a problem with my posts, you can always get the book for yourself to test my memory and verify that basically everything I've said is true, forgiving a few minor details since it's been about eight years since I've read them. But, you can always move there and send your kids to those schools is they;re really not that bad..;)


You can provide public schools for kids but you cant make anyone study and do their homework.

Really? are you sure? What about holding classes in decrepit schools so overcrowded, they use the mop closet as a classroom? Or teachers that sit at their desks and hand out dittos and don't even assign homework? What about the revolving door of teachers that quit every year or get better jobs in suburban districts for higher pay, jobs they do not have to buy school supplies for their students...

These were all cited examples in the book. Really sorry I can't scan it for you though...


#3.. No I don't think so...wait..think otherwise about what????
#4..Your right but I also haven't questioned chevan about what he writes, that doesn't mean I agree with everything he writes either.
#5..Which answers you talking about? I guess some I do... some I don't.

Relax Nick..I'm not saying there have never been any public schools shorted while other schools nearby get more than the other, I'm just saying there is more to the story, it didn't happen because one was a white school and the other was a black school. Maybe paperwork didn't get filed requesting funds..who knows..but there is no big conspiracy trying to keep certain people down. I dont care what color a child is..they have to want to learn.

I never said there wasn't "more to the story." If you have this many questions, then I suggest you pick the book up. It ain't hard to find, or you can get it out of any decent library is you don't want to fund that 'evil socialist' Kozol or whatever...

And it's not a "conspiracy," it's a fact of the localized funding system of US schools. We don not have a national schools system, for better or for worse. Nobody disputes this! Education funding is dependent on the local tax base while state and federal aid offered is marginal and often unfairly and absurdly contingent. Don't believe me? Then ask why New York state has now enacted, as a matter of basic civil rights, that ALL schools be somewhat equally funded. It is because schools in affluent (mostly white) will receive more funding than an inner city school located in a ghetto, where chemical companies often operate because the community is perceived to be too dysfunctional and crime-ridden to afford lawyers, organize campaigns, or even appeal to the media (east St. Louis). What is also NOT a "conspiracy" is that already chronically underfunded school systems are penalized under the "No Child Left Behind" legislation. So, if a school is failing, maybe it is because nobody of merit wants to work there or because they lack basic texts and materials, they get their funding cut! Brilliant!

Do you have any research to indicate otherwise? I'd love to see it!

Nickdfresh
10-18-2007, 05:25 PM
Yeah, accounts of either african dictators or warlords and of course arms dealers. Just recently read africans have spend pretty much all financial aid they received from the first world over the past 15 years in weapons.

Gee, I wonder where they learned that?

Chevan
10-18-2007, 11:38 PM
Oh what a nice discussion is here;)
I've guess that Kato is race-oriented nationalist , but didn't ever dream the Nick is the socialist;):)

And it's not a "conspiracy," it's a fact of the localized funding system of US schools. We don not have a national schools system, for better or for worse. Nobody disputes this! Education funding is dependent on the local tax base while state and federal aid offered is marginal and often unfairly and absurdly contingent. Don't believe me? Then ask why New York state has now enacted, as a matter of basic civil rights, that ALL schools be somewhat equally funded. It is because schools in affluent (mostly white) will receive more funding than an inner city school located in a ghetto, where chemical companies often operate because the community is perceived to be too dysfunctional and crime-ridden to afford lawyers, organize campaigns, or even appeal to the media (east St. Louis). What is also NOT a "conspiracy" is that already chronically underfunded school systems are penalized under the "No Child Left Behind" legislation. So, if a school is failing, maybe it is because nobody of merit wants to work there or because they lack basic texts and materials, they get their funding cut! Brilliant!
Very true Nick.
And the sad fact the Russia going to this form "education system" too.
Actually the former soviet free system was the best of the world ( despite all of lacks).
The free hight education system that we had let get the good profession for EVRYBODY poor who are not a finished idiot.( but honestly speaking the many idiots got hight edication tooin SU).

Digger
10-19-2007, 07:58 AM
HAHA, Austronauts. Please leave our spacmen out of this discussion;)

Digger

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 08:02 AM
Oh what a nice discussion is here;)
I've guess that Kato is race-oriented nationalist , but didn't ever dream the Nick is the socialist;):)

LOL I'm more of a liberal (FDR- New Deal) capitalist...


Very true Nick.
And the sad fact the Russia going to this form "education system" too.
Actually the former soviet free system was the best of the world ( despite all of lacks).
The free hight education system that we had let get the good profession for EVRYBODY poor who are not a finished idiot.( but honestly speaking the many idiots got hight edication tooin SU).

It's difficult to call societies fair when there are such blatant funding discrepancies...

pdf27
10-19-2007, 08:04 AM
HAHA, Austronauts. Plese leave our spacmen out of this discussion;)

Digger

Q: What do you call an Italian Astronaut
A: A Specimen

Rising Sun*
10-19-2007, 08:30 AM
It's difficult to call societies fair when there are such blatant funding discrepancies...

With the greatest respect (a phrase invariably used when there isn't any) might I suggest that you should be more consistent?

On scanning your post, perhaps influenced by your previous clear and forceful expression (which I always find refreshing - without the greatest respect :D), I unconsciously substituted 'ck' for 'nd' in funding. :D

It was more accurate, and of universal application, when I got it wrong. :D

Panzerknacker
10-19-2007, 08:41 AM
I see a lot of agression here.

You all better shift a gear down, or I going ot be forced to "operate"

Digger
10-19-2007, 08:50 AM
Are using a scapel or sledgehammer for the operation PK?;)

digger

Panzerknacker
10-19-2007, 08:56 AM
Let just say the when the knee is infected I usually cut down the entire leg. :rolleyes:

Digger
10-19-2007, 09:01 AM
Hopefully the infection does not go beyond the knee!:shock::D

digger

Digger
10-19-2007, 09:27 AM
I resemble that statement RS. My god what type of sediment are you draining from your glass?;)

digger

Rising Sun*
10-19-2007, 09:32 AM
I resemble that statement RS. My god what type of sediment are you draining from your glass?;)

digger

No sediment, me old mate.

Haven't had a Cooper's red label for weeks. :D

It's just me natural skills as a peacemaker that produced me last gentle post. :D

Rising Sun*
10-19-2007, 11:16 AM
No sediment, me old mate.

Haven't had a Cooper's red label for weeks. :D

It's just me natural skills as a peacemaker that produced me last gentle post. :D


The average reader wouldn't realise just how keen some people are to get rid of posts from people they don't like, even if it removes the subject to which later posts refer.

Meaning is nothing.

Preservation of the regime is everything.

Still, censorship serves its own ends, especially in nations that are used to dictatorships.

Set your clocks, ladies and gentlemen, for the running of the "PK gets rid of something else he doesn't like stakes".

The strong money is on this post disappearing in no time.

So is the weak money.

Kato
10-19-2007, 11:58 AM
So did the Japanese during WWII. Did that stop them from being the preeminent technological power from the 1970s to the 1990s?


There are no cannibalism traditions in Japan. Japanese soldiers during WWII ate other human beings (mainly already dead) to avoid the death from hunger. Besides Japan had reached the Western standards in technology and science by the end of XIX century.

While Africans have cannibal traditions and cannibalism was (and evidently is) practiced by chiefs, senior officials and some local presidents who did not experience any lack of ordinary and luxurious food.

Kato
10-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Nope. If you have 1/16th "colored" blood in your veins, one is considered black...

Oh my God. Following this logic it is almost possible to say that all the Europeans are Iranians or some national from India.

I wonder what's proportion of original negro in the majority of these " great black" scientists?

Kato
10-19-2007, 12:08 PM
What would that have to do with being a "genius?" A lot of "geniuses" are troubled, and have problems with the law, lovers, chemical dependency, etc....

Yes, but not all these things together. As to Martin King. Did he have any talents except trying to pass for a "genius" by creating problems with the law, lovers, chemical dependency and plagiarizing his thesis?

Kato
10-19-2007, 12:17 PM
If these men were white, you'd never think twice at trying to qualify their credentials...


If all the above mentioned men were white they would be considered as nothing above the average. One can be sure that it wouldn't occur to anyone to call them outstanding or noted scientists and dedicate books, films or even one article in Wikipedia.

Kato
10-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Well, if you weren't essentially a cherrypicking, ignorant racist, you'd be able to figure out that his position, he was decisive in increasing crop yields and led research and theory on such. I once watched an excellent documentary on him...

Yes, go on, stick labels on people you don't know. So then the nobel prize winner Dr Watson is an ignorant racist as well. Let's deprive him of his Nobel prize and give it to some negro with a University degree. It would be just cool and improve the intellectual image of negros and such "heroic fighters" for the racial equality like you.

Kato
10-19-2007, 12:36 PM
I don't understand your passages like
BTW, what great things have Ukrainian nationalists done? (besides get owned by Stalin, collaborate with Nazis, and slaughter Polish children?)

or


Oh, sweet! Just like Stalin should help Ukrainians to grow more wheat to feed themselves?

Ukrainian nationalists were the least collaborators with Nazi unlike Poles that signed teaties about friendship and collaboration with Nazi Germany and received the piece of the territoty of Chekoslavakia that was defeated by Nazi Germany and Hungary ( at that time Ukrainian nationalists fought against Hungarian intervention into Chekoslovia)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5187&highlight=anti-nazi+resistance+Europe

They did not indulge Hitler like another Nazi collaborators - Britain USA and France that allowed Hitler to develop German Army, Navy and military industry in violations of all the bans imposed after WWI. Britain USA and France decided to give the Nazi their ally - independent Chekoslovakia in a hope to satisfy Hitler and save their asses. Ukrainain nationalists did not sell ally states and its nations to anyone.

At that time Churchil franlky said that Hitler was a great man who appeared at the right time to save Germany.

mike M.
10-19-2007, 02:48 PM
The average reader wouldn't realise just how keen some people are to get rid of posts from people they don't like, even if it removes the subject to which later posts refer.

Meaning is nothing.

Preservation of the regime is everything.

Still, censorship serves its own ends, especially in nations that are used to dictatorships.

Set your clocks, ladies and gentlemen, for the running of the "PK gets rid of something else he doesn't like stakes".

The strong money is on this post disappearing in no time.

So is the weak money.

I have to agree with everything R/S has said in this post...just my two cents worth, but some mods do seem to go a little to the extreme with censorship. I wanted to reply in the other thread but it was locked. I sure hope someone with authority looks into what is going on..we NEED posters like Rising Sun.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 02:49 PM
I don't understand your passages like

or



Ukrainian nationalists were the least collaborators with Nazi unlike Poles that signed teaties about friendship and collaboration with Nazi Germany and received the piece of the territoty of Chekoslavakia that was defeated by Nazi Germany and Hungary ( at that time Ukrainian nationalists fought against Hungarian intervention into Chekoslovia)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5187&highlight=anti-nazi+resistance+Europe

They did not indulge Hitler like another Nazi collaborators - Britain USA and France that allowed Hitler to develop German Army, Navy and military industry in violations of all the bans imposed after WWI. Britain USA and France decided to give the Nazi their ally - independent Chekoslovakia in a hope to satisfy Hitler and save their asses. Ukrainain nationalists did not sell ally states and its nations to anyone.

At that time Churchil franlky said that Hitler was a great man who appeared at the right time to save Germany.

Well, that's because you are irony impaired.

My point is that someone who continually intimates that he's from and "oppressed" culture, one that was dominated by forceful means, one that was regressed from achieve autonomous nationality by a more powerful neighboring one, would have a little more sympathy for those that have in fact been historically exploited and oppressed. Often done by those using the very same arguments of "scientifically" "authenticated" racism as you are now actually. You see, you've largely unmasked yourself as either a clever false-flag troll, or one filled with complete hypocrisy with pro-fascist sympathies. And believe me, it usually pains me to agree with Chevan, but he does seem to have a point about you.

And BTW, in case nobody's ever informed you or you're not smart enough to figure it out- sophist arguments are largely useless, and out of context quotes of Churchill will get you nowhere and mean nothing...

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 02:53 PM
With the greatest respect (a phrase invariably used when there isn't any) might I suggest that you should be more consistent?

On scanning your post, perhaps influenced by your previous clear and forceful expression (which I always find refreshing - without the greatest respect :D), I unconsciously substituted 'ck' for 'nd' in funding. :D

It was more accurate, and of universal application, when I got it wrong. :D

Paw!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leEsz9ci5XE

Firefly
10-19-2007, 02:57 PM
Guys please keep this discussion civil or it will be locked.

Cheers....

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 02:58 PM
No sediment, me old mate.

Haven't had a Cooper's red label for weeks. :D

It's just me natural skills as a peacemaker that produced me last gentle post. :D

But at least you CAN have Cooper's Red Label.:(

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:02 PM
I see a lot of agression here.

You all better shift a gear down, or I going ot be forced to "operate"


((((((("I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned. I will not make joke, for I will get banned..."))))))

Oh God, this hurts. :(

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:08 PM
Yes, but not all these things together. As to Martin King. Did he have any talents except trying to pass for a "genius" by creating problems with the law, lovers, chemical dependency and plagiarizing his thesis?


Oh look. More slander.:)

Firefly
10-19-2007, 03:09 PM
Jokes are fine. I love jokes, I'm talking about civility and those that understand where Im coming from are those it is aimed at. Thats all I mean, nothing more. As you all know Im a hands off guy.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:19 PM
If all the above mentioned men were white they would be considered as nothing above the average. One can be sure that it wouldn't occur to anyone to call them outstanding or noted scientists and dedicate books, films or even one article in Wikipedia.

But they ARE average! Average scientists. That's the whole point. Society benefits from "scientists" whom are anonymous whose works have been absorbed by gov'ts, corporations, public nonprofits, etc.

Aside from the likes of Einstein or Oppenheimer, name me an "outstanding" or "noted scientist" that any person of average education would recognize...

BTW, Hitler thought that "Jew scientists" were inferior. ;)

That's not the point here. The point is that African Americans WERE scientists, which you have stated was impossible because they were essentially genetically stunted. On the contrary, you've shown significant ignorance in regards to the context, and history of, science here..

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:26 PM
Yes, go on, stick labels on people you don't know. So then the nobel prize winner Dr Watson is an ignorant racist as well.

When did I refer to him as an "ignorant racist?" I think I said something along the lines of socially incoherent "savant."

A lot of very narrowly smart and capable men in certain areas are effectively idiot savants. Einstein couldn't figure out what to wear everyday and absolutely NO concept of matching clothing, so he had a closet filled with a preset suit of clothes so he didn't look like a fool.

This guy is probably "Rainman" like...


Let's deprive him of his Nobel prize and give it to some negro with a University degree. It would be just cool and improve the intellectual image of negros and such "heroic fighters" for the racial equality like you.

Again. Wherever did I say this?

And are you saying races shouldn't equal? Do you have a problem with "equality?" What's your solution? We'd love to hear what we should do with the "Negroes." :)

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:33 PM
Jokes are fine. I love jokes, I'm talking about civility and those that understand where Im coming from are those it is aimed at. Thats all I mean, nothing more. As you all know Im a hands off guy.

I don't mean jokes in general. I had a specific joke lined up. But, oh Panzernacker would not have liked it though. :(

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:41 PM
I don't understand your passages like

or



Ukrainian nationalists were the least collaborators with Nazi unlike Poles that signed teaties about friendship and collaboration with Nazi Germany and received the piece of the territoty of Chekoslavakia that was defeated by Nazi Germany and Hungary ( at that time Ukrainian nationalists fought against Hungarian intervention into Chekoslovia)

Yeah, those "evil" Poles that were the first country in WWII to be invaded in anger and were completely conquered! I sort of think this makes any "deals" signed as just irrelevant.

You have a fascinating concept of history I must say. So much cherry-picking and decontextualization, so little time...:)


http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5187&highlight=anti-nazi+resistance+Europe

They did not indulge Hitler like another Nazi collaborators - Britain USA and France that allowed Hitler to develop German Army, Navy and military industry in violations of all the bans imposed after WWI. Britain USA and France decided to give the Nazi their ally - independent Chekoslovakia in a hope to satisfy Hitler and save their asses. Ukrainain nationalists did not sell ally states and its nations to anyone.

At that time Churchil franlky said that Hitler was a great man who appeared at the right time to save Germany.

And SOME Ukrainian nationalists used the invasion and losses sustained by the Red Army to their advantage and strove to win autonomy from the German occupiers...

And BTW Kato, I'm the last guy in this forum you can call an "anti-Ukrainian" here...

Go ahead and try...

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:45 PM
The average reader wouldn't realise just how keen some people are to get rid of posts from people they don't like, even if it removes the subject to which later posts refer.

Meaning is nothing.

Preservation of the regime is everything.

Still, censorship serves its own ends, especially in nations that are used to dictatorships.

Set your clocks, ladies and gentlemen, for the running of the "PK gets rid of something else he doesn't like stakes".

The strong money is on this post disappearing in no time.

So is the weak money.

Yeah, censorship is for pussies! Sorry, but there it is...

You fight shitty ideas with speech, not by deletions and bannings...

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 03:57 PM
There are no cannibalism traditions in Japan. Japanese soldiers during WWII ate other human beings (mainly already dead) to avoid the death from hunger. Besides Japan had reached the Western standards in technology and science by the end of XIX century.

Uh, no. US Navy aviators shot down over Chichi Jima (an island near Iwo Jima that was not invaded, but bombed to isolate the garrison) were executed and then eaten - symbolically, as each Japanese sailor/soldier was ordered to consume a portion of the downed fliers' flesh. Most were horrified and refused, but still, the perversion of the Code of Bushido led to much cultish brutality in 1944, and it had nothing to do with need or hunger...


While Africans have cannibal traditions and cannibalism was (and evidently is) practiced by chiefs, senior officials and some local presidents who did not experience any lack of ordinary and luxurious food.

Which part of Africa? What countries? What are the examples? Idi Amin? Was Hitler's vegetarianism -as he murdered the Jews- more civilized? What about the children murdered by Ukrainian nationalists? What about Stalin's purges, King Leopold's Rape of the Congo, or the Holocaust? All committed by Caucasians or Slavs.

Were they better?

Kato
10-19-2007, 04:05 PM
My point is that someone who continually intimates that he's from and "oppressed" culture, one that was dominated by forceful means, one that was regressed from achieve autonomous nationality by a more powerful neighboring one, would have a little more sympathy for those that have in fact been historically exploited and oppressed. Often done by those using the very same arguments of "scientifically" "authenticated" racism as you are now actually. You see, you've largely unmasked yourself as either a clever false-flag troll, or one filled with complete hypocrisy with pro-fascist sympathies. And believe me, it usually pains me to agree with Chevan, but he does seem to have a point about you.

I don't need your American sympathy. No one need it. Nowadays sympathy or hatred to a certain nation or groups of people, or personality among such persons like you can be created by Mass Medias within a week under the slogans of "scientifically" "authenticated" American democracy.

Serbs were turned into aggressors in their historic original region Kosovo and deprived of this territory.

When all the Serbs were driven out from Kosovo by Albanians. Albanians were not branded as aggressors and terrorists by Western Medias.

Iraq and Saddam were sympathised when they waged war against Iran and were not sympathised when they attacked Kuwait, and later even less sympathised when they did not attack anyone.


So don't tell me about hypocrisy and pro-fascist sympathies.

Your so-called "anti-fascism" is nothing but a form of agressive conformism aimed at anyone who dares to express his opinion that differs from the official propaganda and brainwashing by medias.

Kato
10-19-2007, 04:14 PM
And SOME Ukrainian nationalists used the invasion and losses sustained by the Red Army to their advantage and strove to win autonomy from the German occupiers...

And BTW Kato, I'm the last guy in this forum you can call an "anti-Ukrainian" here...

Yeah they declered full independence on the 30th of July that is after 8 days since the invasion of Germany.
When did the US declare a war to Germany. Or it was Hitler who declared a war upon the USA?

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 04:26 PM
I don't need your American sympathy.

You have none. That's saved for the people were killed by, or suffer/suffered under Stalin, or Hitler, Amin, Mugabe, Hitler, and anyone else murdered rationalized by political rationales...


No one need it. Nowadays sympathy or hatred to a certain nation or groups of people, or personality among such persons like you can be created by Mass Medias within a week under the slogans of "scientifically" "authenticated" American democracy.

Yup. It's one giant conspiracy run by four men (or "The Man") in a back room somewhere...


Serbs were turned into aggressors in their historic original region Kosovo and deprived of this territory.

Despite the innocent men, women and children that happened to live there...


When all the Serbs were driven out from Kosovo by Albanians. Albanians were not branded as aggressors and terrorists by Western Medias.

I think the numbers of ethnic Albanian Kosoves driven out by Serb-led terror was far greater. Though, I would never, ever state that the Serbs were the sole guilty party and the only ones that were murdering civilians in that horrifically vicious conflict (overall, not just in Kosovo) as indeed, I recall the "American media" showing an instance where an entire village of Serbian old women had had their throats cut by Bosnian Muslim "infantrymen." I was sickened and horrified. Did that make the killing of Muslim men in Srebrenica any more acceptable? Absolutely not. One actually led to another...


Iraq and Saddam were sympathised when they waged war against Iran and were not sympathised when they attacked Kuwait, and later even less sympathised when they did not attack anyone.

I couldn't agree more...


So don't tell me about hypocrisy and pro-fascist sympathies.

Your so-called "anti-fascism" is nothing but a form of aggressive conformism aimed at anyone who dares to express his opinion that differs from the official propaganda and brainwashing by medias.

Not true at all. It's only aimed at those that have some very dark agenda, in which truth is the first casualty. Including those in my own government...

Kato
10-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Yup. It's one giant conspiracy run by four men (or "The Man") in a back room somewhere...

Nothing about the conspiracy.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Yeah they declered full independence on the 30th of July that is after 8 days since the invasion of Germany.
When did the US declare a war to Germany. Or it was Hitler who declared a war upon the USA?

Hitler declared War on the US on 15 December 1941.

(Though, there had been some fighting between the US Navy and the Kriegsmarine for almost a year at that point.)

Firefly
10-19-2007, 04:31 PM
Woah guys.

This is so far off topic here that its gone way off topic. Take it to the threads that are relevant please.

Kato
10-19-2007, 04:38 PM
I think the numbers of ethnic Albanian Kosoves driven out by Serb-led terror was far greater.

Out of 200000 Serbs who lived before the foreign internvention in Kosovo remained a few thousands. No mass graves of Albanians were found.


I recall the "American media" showing an instance where an entire village of Serbian old women had had their throats cut by Bosnian Muslim "infantrymen." I was sickened and horrified. Did that make the killing of Muslim men in Srebrenica any more acceptable? Absolutely not. One actually led to another...

However it did not prevent the USA from the intervention into the conflict on the Mouslem side. They assumed the role of a judge and only aggrevated the situation, causing new victims among civilians.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 04:44 PM
I think the numbers of ethnic Albanian Kosoves driven out by Serb-led terror was far greater.

Out of 200000 Serbs who lived before the foreign internvention in Kosovo remained a few thousands. No mass graves of Albanians were found.


Not true. Roughly 10,000 Albanians were "found" dead in mass graves (this is without research BTW, so I could be wrong). The number was significantly less than advertised, but not inconsequential nevertheless. And I think there are more Serbs there today than that, though some have fled..


However it did not prevent the USA from the intervention into the conflict on the Mouslem side. They assumed the role of a judge and only aggrevated the situation, causing new victims among civilians.

Well, nothing ever is perfect in war. And yes, there were *****s in the KLA. I do not deny that many Serbs have suffered unjustly. But I don't think you can solely blame the United States or NATO for this. The "Yugoslavian" gov't has as much to do with the suffering of her people as anyone...

Firefly
10-19-2007, 04:46 PM
Righto.

You have been warned.

Drop it and get back to topic. If you want to talk Kosovo, use the appropriate forum. next off topic post here and the thread is locked.

Please dont ignore me this time.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 04:47 PM
Fine. I'm out...

Kato
10-19-2007, 04:54 PM
Yeah, those "evil" Poles that were the first country in WWII to be invaded in anger and were completely conquered! I sort of think this makes any "deals" signed as just irrelevant.

But it meant that Poles collaborated with German Nazi for several years

Poland received a part of Czechoslovakia. Poland signed strategic treaties with Germany.
There had been a number of concentration camps build in Poland by "Germans specialists" prior to 1939. They were mainly filled with Ukrainians and Belorussians suspected in illoyality to Poles.

Firefly
10-19-2007, 05:12 PM
But it meant that Poles collaborated with German Nazi for several years

Poland received a part of Czechoslovakia. Poland signed strategic treaties with Germany.
There had been a number of concentration camps build in Poland by "Germans specialists" prior to 1939. They were mainly filled with Ukrainians and Belorussians suspected in illoyality to Poles.
OK Kato you got you wish if you continue.

Kato
10-19-2007, 05:12 PM
And now back to the topic.

Nowadays we see that all the independent African states of Subsaharian Africa can't satisfy the basic needs of their population, they can't keep up the minimal educational and scientific level that can enable them to use technologies, infrastructure without foreign assistance. (I don't speak about contributing to the global technological and scientific development.)

It turns out that the only successful African state in this respect was the Republic of South Africa that had been led by evil white racists by the 1990s.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 06:03 PM
And now back to the topic.

Nowadays we see that all the independent African states of Subsaharian Africa can't satisfy the basic needs of their population, they can't keep up the minimal educational and scientific level that can enable them to use technologies, infrastructure without foreign assistance. (I don't speak about contributing to the global technological and scientific development.)

Before you indict subsaharan Africa, I would ask what "country" that exists today there existed prior to the Age of Imperialism?

And what equivalent Euro-experiments of putting nationalistic/tribal/religious rivals together ever met with success? Yugoslavia?

Which European country was depopulated via slavery?

And I would ask anyone to look back in history, as ask if the "Aryan" Gauls or Anglo-Saxons were in any way superior to the Latin Romans that conquered them? Some of those Romans my in fact have had "African" blood in their veins via Sicily...

Is it race that is really the issue?


It turns out that the only successful African state in this respect was the Republic of South Africa that had been led by evil white racists by the 1990s.


You mean that they're were successful with using what was essentially little more than second class, almost-slave labor to build a state? Really? Congratulations!

I think every country should have a ready made cheap labor force of people easily exploited and politically marginalized - forbidden to vote, living with no state supported education or social services, and forced to take jobs that paid a fraction of their white countrymen. Yet, the funny thing is, the blacks (previously led by Nelson Mandela) have continued the prosperity of South Africa after controlling things for going on 20 years now. And I don't think they even eat anybody (except their women-friends) ;)..

BTW, why did the states run by white, Slavs and Caucasians in the Warsaw Pact partially fail economically?

Kato
10-19-2007, 06:16 PM
Before you indict subsaharan Africa, I would ask what "country" that exists today there existed prior to the Age of Imperialism?

Ethiopia.

Actually the rest of the negroes did not even come to the stage of some state institutions.
They had tribal organization of their society


And what equivalent Euro-experiments of putting nationalistic/tribal/religious rivals together ever met with success? Yugoslavia?

Switzerland, Belgium, Canada, the UK.


Which European country was depopulated via slavery?

There was serfdom in Europe. The wars in Europe were much more devastating due to higher organizational and technological level


And I would ask anyone to look back in history, as ask if the "Aryan" Gauls or Anglo-Saxons were in any way superior to the Latin Romans that conquered them? Some of those Romans my in fact have had "African" blood in their veins via Sicily...

Is it race that is really the issue?

It is not an argument. The north of Africa and Sicily wasn't populated by negros.

Kato
10-19-2007, 06:42 PM
You mean that they're were successful with using what was essentially little more than second class, almost-slave labor to build a state? Really? Congratulations!

The rest of Afriacan countries led by blacks has the same almost-slave labor but it does not give any results



I think every country should have a ready made cheap labor force of people easily exploited and politically marginalized - forbidden to vote, living with no state supported education or social services, and forced to take jobs that paid a fraction of their white countrymen. Yet, the funny thing is, the blacks (previously led by Nelson Mandela) have continued the prosperity of South Africa after controlling things for going on 20 years now...

The modern prosperity of South Africa thanks only to the facts that whites remained in the country and continue to work in the spheres that require intellect. The blacks at senior bureaucratic posts (previously led by Nelson Mandela) realise well the intellectual abilities of negros. Therefore they preserved the situation when nearly all the blacks are
cheap labor force that is exploited even more as they had been before the end of racial segregation


BTW, why did the states run by white, Slavs and Caucasians in the Warsaw Pact partially fail economically?

All these states were able to satisfy the basic needs of their people, keep up education, scientific and technological development. Their armed forces posed a real threat to the Nato.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 06:57 PM
Ethiopia.

Actually the rest of the negroes did not even come to the stage of some state institutions.
They had tribal organization of their society

The tribal institutions were largely destroyed or marginalized to varying degrees. And in no way were any borders observed that had anything to do with geography or racial or tribal make up...

Um, Ethiopians are not "blacks," but are considered racially caucasian. :)


And what equivalent Euro-experiments of putting nationalistic/tribal/religious rivals together ever met with success? Yugoslavia?

Switzerland, Belgium, Canada, the UK.

The Swiss are a product of their geography. The mountains serve as a natural barrier and their traditions of three languages was gradually ingrained over time.

There is talk of Belgium partitioning, Canada is not in Europe, but the French were conquered by the British and had no real alternative other than exchanging their British-Canadian "Anglo-phone" overlords for US ones. And most actually did support the failed US invasions of Canada. But even now, there is real talk of partition and possible civil war as Québécoise nationalists have had success over the years of pressing for secession. The UK has also a recent history of national identity crisis as the Scots have pressed for more autonomy and the Northern Irish question of Ulster looks increasingly like a unification with Ireland is inevitable in the future...


here was serfdom in Europe. The wars in Europe were much more devastating due to higher organizational and technological level

But no less frequent than wars anywhere else. And the Congo Wars (where King Leopold metaphorically "raped" the population) has been the scene of some of the most bloody "technological" warfare of the 20th century.

And you cannot compare the wholesale abduction and forced resettlement of peoples with serfdom...


It is not an argument. The north of Africa and Sicily wasn't populated by negros.

Some would indeed argue that parts of North Africa, including at times during the Egyptian empire, was populated with "Negroes." And there has long been talk of African blacks settling in Sicily during its tumultuous history. I have no way of "proving" either. But they are theories nevertheless...

Cuts
10-19-2007, 06:59 PM
I've been following this thread with some interest and not a little amusement.
Both sides have been making some errors and perpetuating a couple of myths, but not wishing to hinder the flow I've sat watching from the sidelines.



I think every country should have a ready made cheap labor force of people easily exploited and politically marginalized - forbidden to vote, living with no state supported education or social services, and forced to take jobs that paid a fraction of their white countrymen. Yet, the funny thing is, the blacks (previously led by Nelson Mandela) have continued the prosperity of South Africa after controlling things for going on 20 years now. And I don't think they even eat anybody (except their women-friends) ;)..


I'm interested to know from where the above information is gleaned, did you visit the Republic of South Africa during the days of Apartheid and have you been there since the release of Madala from Victor Verster or the '94 elections ?

What are your opinions on neighbouring Zimbabwe ?

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 07:05 PM
I've been following this thread with some interest and not a little amusement.
Both sides have been making some errors and perpetuating a couple of myths, but not wishing to hinder the flow I've sat watching from the sidelines.

Okay. But as we say in America: "pot meets tea kettle." Perhaps I have you confused with someone else, but I've seen some of your facts not exactly stand up to scrutiny...



I'm interested to know from where the above information is gleaned, did you visit the Republic of South Africa during the days of Apartheid and have you been there since the release of Madala from Victor Verster or the '94 elections ?

No, I never visited though I have a friend that lives there (that I have no recently spoken too) connected to the diamond trade...

The information was "gleaned" from reading various news sources, internet, The Economist, and just paying attention for the last 20 years...

Which fact do you take umbrage with?

How do you think South African blacks were treated under apartheid?


What are your opinions on neighbouring Zimbabwe ?

I think Mugabe is a fascist, demagogue of a **** that uses racism against whites, and starvation against blacks, to maintain power he should lose as soon as possible...

Cuts
10-19-2007, 08:32 PM
I've been following this thread with some interest and not a little amusement.
Both sides have been making some errors and perpetuating a couple of myths, but not wishing to hinder the flow I've sat watching from the sidelines.

Okay. But as we say in America: "pot meets tea kettle." Perhaps I have you confused with someone else, but I've seen some of your facts not exactly stand up to scrutiny...
The English use the phrase, "That's pot calling the kettle black." :)
Perhaps you do have me confused with another, please feel free to inform me which facts you mean.




I think every country should have a ready made cheap labor force of people easily exploited and politically marginalized - forbidden to vote, living with no state supported education or social services, and forced to take jobs that paid a fraction of their white countrymen. Yet, the funny thing is, the blacks (previously led by Nelson Mandela) have continued the prosperity of South Africa after controlling things for going on 20 years now. And I don't think they even eat anybody (except their women-friends) ;)..
I'm interested to know from where the above information is gleaned, did you visit the Republic of South Africa during the days of Apartheid and have you been there since the release of Madala from Victor Verster or the '94 elections ?

No, I never visited though I have a friend that lives there (that I have no recently spoken too) connected to the diamond trade...

The information was "gleaned" from reading various news sources, internet, The Economist, and just paying attention for the last 20 years...

Which fact do you take umbrage with?
I don't take umbrage with any of these comments, however I do know some are incorrect.
For example, there was in fact state supported education and health care.
The prosperity of which you speak has continued, unfortunately it has continued to decrease with the onset of each poorly organised financial directive from on high.
As to the last light-hearted comment, my black South African friends to a man, express complete horror at the prospect ! :o



How do you think South African blacks were treated under apartheid?
Quite an open question, there is vast yardage of large tomes dedicated to the subject.
Do you mean on a political, social or personal level ?



What are your opinions on neighbouring Zimbabwe ?

I think Mugabe is a fascist, demagogue of a **** that uses racism against whites, and starvation against blacks, to maintain power he should lose as soon as possible...
I'd have said that he's merely a tribal leader, a very poor one admittedly, but traditional nonetheless.



Out of interest whereabouts and in which subjects did you teach, and why did you stop ?

Kato
10-19-2007, 09:03 PM
Um, Ethiopians are not "blacks," but are considered racially caucasian.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Nakempte_Boys.jpg


Schoolboys in western Oromia, Ethiopia.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 09:30 PM
Firstly, Watson has repudiated his statements...

Friday, Oct. 19, 2007
The Mortification of James Watson
By Laura Blue

Not very long after James Watson finished his Nobel Prize–winning work on the structure of DNA in 1953, he started firing off some eyebrow-raising comments about his fellow man: that fat people don't get hired because they lack ambition; how sunlight (and darker skin) is the source of the "Latin lover" libido; what he found distasteful in the appearance of his female research collaborator, Rosalind Franklin.

But as the great geneticist slunk back to the U.S. on Friday — his sold-out U.K. tour for his new book called Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science canceled after the apparently racist remarks he made to Britain's Sunday Times Magazine last weekend — it's clear that Watson's latest provocation is not one he'll shrug off lightly. Indeed, Watson, 79, says he is "mortified" by the imbroglio, and apologizes "unreservedly" for the offending comments, in which he suggested black people are not as smart as whites: he told the Sunday Times' Charlotte Hunt-Grubbe that he is "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa," since "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — whereas testing says not really." Watson also told Hunt-Grubbe, who lived and worked with him as a lab assistant in Long Island a decade ago, that even though he would hope all people are equal in intellectual capacity, "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true."

Condemnation was swift. Watson arrived in the U.K. midweek to promote his new book, which will be out Oct. 22. He was scheduled to speak Friday at the Science Museum in London, but the museum announced the day before that it would cancel the event, as Watson had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate." The University of Edinburgh then axed Watson's scheduled appearance for Monday, calling the scientist's remarks "entirely incompatible with the spirit" of the lecture series in which he was supposed to participate. And an event organizer in Bristol, which had booked the DNA pioneer for Oct. 24, dropped Watson as well, saying the Sunday Times Magazine remarks were "unacceptably provocative."

By noon on Friday, a beleaguered Watson had canceled his remaining engagements and was flying back to the U.S. "His decision to leave the country, I believe, was due to things going on at Cold Springs Harbor," says his publicist Kate Farquhar-Thomson, referring to the Long Island lab where Watson is chancellor. Though Farquhar-Thomson declined to speculate what those "things going on" might be, odds are they include the lab board's decision yesterday to suspend Watson's administrative responsibilities.

No one seems more shocked by the statements than James Watson himself. "To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly," Watson said in a statement he issued at the Royal Society Thursday. "That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."

And on that much at least, he's right. For one thing, science has no agreed-upon definition of "race": however you slice up the population, the categories look pretty arbitrary. For another, science has no agreed-upon definition of "intelligence" either — let alone an agreed-upon method to test it. All kinds of cultural biases have been identified in IQ tests, for example. If there is something fundamental in our brains that regulates our capacity to learn, we have yet to separate its effects from the effects of everything that we experience after we're born.

Still, even with the offensive and unreasonable remarks that appeared in print, it's hard not to feel a little bit sorry for Watson. The man Charlotte Hunt-Grubbe describes in The Sunday Times Magazine is less an arrogant bigot than an enthusiastic if misguided old man, someone who does not quite understand that people won't always take his provocative remarks as innocently as he intended. Even Watson seems shocked by the comments in the magazine. "I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said," he said in yesterday's statement. (The Times Online reports today that the Sunday Times Magazine interview was recorded and the publication stands behind its story.)

But there was a time about 10 years ago, writes Hunt-Grubbe in her piece, when she, then a lab assistant, found Watson distressed over a British newspaper headline: Abort babies with gay genes, says Nobel winner. Hunt-Grubbe asked Watson about that incident again when they met for their recent interview. "It was a hypothetical thing," Watson tells her. Someone had asked a question about aborting homosexual babies, and Watson believed mothers "should have the right" to decide when they have a baby. "I was just arguing for the freedom of women to try and have the children they want, not what is right or wrong," he continues. To be sure, picking and choosing your kids' traits is controversial enough. But it's not necessarily prejudicial. Given Watson's stature in scientific circles and his complete retraction of the Sunday Times Magazine remarks, let's hope these race comments, too, have been misunderstood, and that Watson is not just an obsolete product of a bygone time.

Time (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1673952,00.html)

Kato
10-19-2007, 09:54 PM
Watson arrived in the U.K. midweek to promote his new book, which will be out Oct. 22. He was scheduled to speak Friday at the Science Museum in London, but the museum announced the day before that it would cancel the event, as Watson had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate." The University of Edinburgh then axed Watson's scheduled appearance for Monday, calling the scientist's remarks "entirely incompatible with the spirit" of the lecture series in which he was supposed to participate. And an event organizer in Bristol, which had booked the DNA pioneer for Oct. 24, dropped Watson as well, saying the Sunday Times Magazine remarks were "unacceptably provocative."

By noon on Friday, a beleaguered Watson had canceled his remaining engagements and was flying back to the U.S. "His decision to leave the country, I believe, was due to things going on at Cold Springs Harbor," says his publicist Kate Farquhar-Thomson, referring to the Long Island lab where Watson is chancellor. Though Farquhar-Thomson declined to speculate what those "things going on" might be, odds are they include the lab board's decision yesterday to suspend Watson's administrative responsibilities

Oh look! The authorities did not even try to object and immediately set all
the dogs on him so that he had to evacuate. No wonder that he tries to avoid this illegal persecution.

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 09:58 PM
The English use the phrase, "That's pot calling the kettle black." :)
Perhaps you do have me confused with another, please feel free to inform me which facts you mean.

I'll take that back and offer apologies...


I don't take umbrage with any of these comments, however I do know some are incorrect.
For example, there was in fact state supported education and health care.

But seperate and unqual. The South African blacks lived in parallel society of shanty towns and were largely excluded from the cities after hours...


The prosperity of which you speak has continued, unfortunately it has continued to decrease with the onset of each poorly organised financial directive from on high.
As to the last light-hearted comment, my black South African friends to a man, express complete horror at the prospect ! :o

Perhaps. And I'm not defending some of the asshats in the ANC, as there are indeed irrational fools (some of the comments regarding AIDs are just appalling and would be comical if they weren't so scary) as much as in any other movement that began in circumstances of conflict and violence. However, I've been under the impression that Mandela was widely popular and was seen as almost messianic by and large. I've even read interviews with extremist SA white supremicists neo-Nazis that admired Mandela and decided that it wasn't worth it to stir up trouble, because of his popularity and even they admitted that he was an excellent overall leader that prevented any wide spread support for their cause amongst whites seeking a partition.

Furthermore, I think one can call the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" to be one of the more enlightened bodies to ever exist. In a sense, it was almost a societal "turning of the cheek."


Quite an open question, there is vast yardage of large tomes dedicated to the subject.
Do you mean on a political, social or personal level ?

Well societal of course. I'm not saying whites were evil fascists that burn Africans alive or anything. In fact, the film on Steven Biko illustrated a rather interesting collaboration. Biko was beaten to death by the intelligence wing (death squad) of the SA Police. But the man who exposed his extra-judicial murder was a white journalist who was essentially put in a self-imposed exile after he was also threatened by the govt for writing the story...


I'd have said that he's merely a tribal leader, a very poor one admittedly, but traditional nonetheless.

He was a guerrilla commander that, to my knowledge (and correct me if I am wrong) that came to power after the overthrow of the Rhodesian gov't in some sort of power sharing arrangement. He's no more a "tribal leader" than Lenin was. :D

But he certainly is an even bigger *****...


Out of interest whereabouts and in which subjects did you teach, and why did you stop ?

Well we're getting a bit personal, but I taught English full time and substitute taught for a bit...

I stopped simply because I hated the administrative aspects of the job, and realized that the people I was working for were in no ways idealists, but just people who were self-serving careerists earning a pay check. That's fine I guess, but it wasn't worth the stress..

In any case, I probably will return to teaching college in some form or another...

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 09:59 PM
Oh look! The authorities did not even try to object and immediately set all
the dogs on him so that he had to evacuate. No wonder that he tries to avoid this illegal persecution.

What illegal "persecution?"

Kato
10-19-2007, 10:13 PM
What illegal "persecution?"

The following:


He was scheduled to speak Friday at the Science Museum in London, but the museum announced the day before that it would cancel the event, as Watson had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate." The University of Edinburgh then axed Watson's scheduled appearance for Monday, calling the scientist's remarks "entirely incompatible with the spirit" of the lecture series in which he was supposed to participate. And an event organizer in Bristol, which had booked the DNA pioneer for Oct. 24, dropped Watson as well, saying the Sunday Times Magazine remarks were "unacceptably provocative."

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 10:20 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Nakempte_Boys.jpg


Schoolboys in western Oromia, Ethiopia.


You see Kato, this is where the cusp of your eugenics and racial argument begins to fail. Ethiopians have dark skin, but are more akin to Arabic (Egyptian) culture, as indeed some Arabs may appear "black" but are not "negroid" or whatever the term is. In fact, Ethiopia boasts a rather significant population of Jews (straight out of the Old Testament). So many Ethiopians in fact have much in common with European Jewry genetically.

Are Jews less intelligent too?

In fact, there is little actual "genetic science" regarding IQ and there is no actual study regarding a genetic difference between those with lighter skin and those with darker skin. It's all based on "culturally biased" IQ studies that fail to take into account the differences in class and educational opportunities.

But, then, that would take away from the fun and self-esteem derived from ones' belief of inherent superiority based on skin color...

Nickdfresh
10-19-2007, 10:22 PM
The following:

So what's "illegal" about it?

Is it illegal is they refuse to have an extremist, idiotic black US college professor that espouses views such as Africans are the "people of the sun" and white(devil)s are "the people of ice" and are inherently evil and manipulative?

Cuts
10-20-2007, 10:06 AM
I don't take umbrage with any of these comments, however I do know some are incorrect.
For example, there was in fact state supported education and health care.

But seperate and unqual. The South African blacks lived in parallel society of shanty towns and were largely excluded from the cities after hours...
Those areas of black housing that were (and still are) composed of shacks are the illegal settlements or 'squatter camps,' ie those not officially sanctioned. Someone had just decided that they were going to build their home there.
There are areas of Soweto where the most humble of houses would be far beyond my means, and most probably out of reach of the vast majority of members here.
Reference being "excluded from the cities," that's not quite how this aspect of Apartheid functioned.
Many years ago, unless one had definite reaon for entering a residential area set aside for people of a different ethnicity, one was liable to be arrested. This held true for people of all colours, not only for blacks.
Do you know when Apartheid ended ?




The prosperity of which you speak has continued, unfortunately it has continued to decrease with the onset of each poorly organised financial directive from on high.
As to the last light-hearted comment, my black South African friends to a man, express complete horror at the prospect !

Perhaps. And I'm not defending some of the asshats in the ANC, as there are indeed irrational fools (some of the comments regarding AIDs are just appalling and would be comical if they weren't so scary) as much as in any other movement that began in circumstances of conflict and violence. However, I've been under the impression that Mandela was widely popular and was seen as almost messianic by and large. I've even read interviews with extremist SA white supremicists neo-Nazis that admired Mandela and decided that it wasn't worth it to stir up trouble, because of his popularity and even they admitted that he was an excellent overall leader that prevented any wide spread support for their cause amongst whites seeking a partition.
Madala received very many white votes during the parody of an election in '94, and was indeed a popular president across the board. Twenty-seven years of reflection had made him realise that for the country to function properly, widespread co-operation was necessary.
He made the very sensible decision to increase his longevity by only standing for one period of the presidency. He was at most risk from the second and third eschelons of his own party.
Which "extremist SA white supremicists neo-Nazis" (can you get any more adjectives into one title ?) were interviewed, ET ?



Furthermore, I think one can call the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" to be one of the more enlightened bodies to ever exist. In a sense, it was almost a societal "turning of the cheek."
The TRC, was an idea that had a great deal to recommend it, unfortunately the wheels fell off.
It was suggested to the ANC at the bargaining table after they had demanded that all those who committed crimes 'during the struggle' should be absolved.
Absolved they were, if the perpetrator said that it was done for politial reasons and announced his contrition. Can you see the flaw ?
When it came to their ideological aims the ANC had not thought the TRC through, as members of the SAP, (amongst others,) also stepped forward and did the same.
We now have a situation where people who wished to draw a line under the excesses on both sides are being charged with a crime for which they have already received absolution and pardon. Any guesses as to which racial group these might belong ?
One of the many reasons the TRC rapidly received the moniker 'LHC' (Lies and Hatred Commission.)





I'd have said that he's [Mugabe] merely a tribal leader, a very poor one admittedly, but traditional nonetheless.

He was a guerrilla commander that, to my knowledge (and correct me if I am wrong) that came to power after the overthrow of the Rhodesian gov't in some sort of power sharing arrangement.
The Rhodesian government was not overthrown by any internal strife, it was sold down the Zambezi by the British Government reneging on treaties entered into in good faith.
Uncle Bob was never a guerilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader. He was a politician who unilaterally took command of ZANU when Chitepo was killed, and scant months later ZANU was split along tribal lines due to his manoeuvering other Shona into various positions of power within the organisation.
Growing increasingly annoyed with having to discuss political proposals with his tribal enemies in ZAPU, (while conducting COIN Ops against ZIPRA,) he combined both parties and announced a one party state.
He tried unsucessfully to have Nkomo killed then attempted to arrest him for treason. Nkomo, (the man who laughed on tv when questioned about the attack on the Viscount and subsequent rape and murder of the survivors,) fled the country and was given political sanctuary in the UK.


He's no more a "tribal leader" than Lenin was. :D
If only you could tell that to the tens of thousands of Matabele women, children and madalas he had murdered by his 'elite' maShona 5 Bde, a unit answerable only to himself.
And people talked of ethnic cleansing in FRY...


But he certainly is an even bigger *****...
Mugabe's death toll hasn't reached the dizzy heights of Lenin. Yet.
But give him time...

Kato
10-20-2007, 10:20 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Nakempte_Boys.jpg



You see Kato, this is where the cusp of your eugenics and racial argument begins to fail. Ethiopians have dark skin, but are more akin to Arabic (Egyptian) culture, as indeed some Arabs may appear "black" but are not "negroid" or whatever the term is. In fact, Ethiopia boasts a rather significant population of Jews (straight out of the Old Testament). So many Ethiopians in fact have much in common with European Jewry genetically.



In the photo one can see the typcal negroids. They have curly hair, wide lips the typical structure of skulls. Ethiopians are Orthodox Christans and so they have nothing in common with Arabs or their culture. The relations of Christan Negros with Arabs were and are hostile ( modern Sudan)


Are Jews less intelligent too?

Jews nd Arabs belong to the ethnical Semetic group. Jews that left Israel 2000 years ago and settled in Europe, later in America mixed with whites. It even led to almost full extinction of their language Hebrew.



In fact, there is little actual "genetic science" regarding IQ and there is no actual study regarding a genetic difference between those with lighter skin and those with darker skin. It's all based on "culturally biased" IQ studies that fail to take into account the differences in class and educational opportunities.

The racial differences are evident. Black pupils and students log behind whites and asians. Those who point out these evident things are immediately called "culturally biased"

Nickdfresh
10-20-2007, 11:56 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Nakempte_Boys.jpg

In the photo one can see the typcal negroids. They have curly hair, wide lips the typical structure of skulls. Ethiopians are Orthodox Christans and so they have nothing in common with Arabs or their culture. The relations of Christan Negros with Arabs were and are hostile ( modern Sudan)

But there are Christian Arabs (Lebanese Maronite's/Iraqis/Syrians etc.?) and are of similar "racial stock" as Jews. Arabs also have curly hair, their facial features are distinguishable from other Africans. In addition, Ethiopians are an ethnic subset as immigrants in the US often refuse to mingle with other, "darker" Africans. This is also the central problem in the Sudanese civil war, where moderate Muslim predominately Arabic-Sudanese regard the black Sudanese as a troublesome minority to be gotten rid of..

BTW, Ethiopia is one of the more stable nations in Africa. Certainly not perfect, but they made peace with Eritrea have rejected the communist ideology (which contributed to the famine as it was used as a weapon in their civil war) and they drove Islamic fanatics out of Somalia adeptly.


Jews nd Arabs belong to the ethnical Semetic group. Jews that left Israel 2000 years ago and settled in Europe, later in America mixed with whites. It even led to almost full extinction of their language Hebrew.

Then why did Israel fly a bunch of Jewish Ethiopians out during the 80s famines? Why are a number of Ethiopians Jewish, as they always have been going back to ancient Egypt?

You failed to answer this question.

I also noticed that you failed to account for the theory of some African American 'black nationalists' that much of the very successful Egyptian Empire was at least partially run by black Africans, not Arabs. BTW, I'm not endorsing this theory since it's largely irrelevant and based on flimsy, self-serving scholarship (much like the studies indicating blacks as dumber than white)..


The racial differences are evident. Black pupils and students log behind whites and asians. Those who point out these evident things are immediately called "culturally biased"

Which is completely shit according to the scientific method. Because only relevant study scientifically would be to measure groups of asians, whites, and blacks raised in identical circumstances factoring in class, schools districts, access to technology, proper nutrition, housing with lead paint, proximity to factories, crime rates, drug use, and a whole litany of factors. Again, your falling into the racists' obsession with "nature" and ignoring "nurture" of the fact that scores are biased towards the "dominant culture." A culture I know far better than you do...

Nickdfresh
10-20-2007, 12:20 PM
Those areas of black housing that were (and still are) composed of shacks are the illegal settlements or 'squatter camps,' ie those not officially sanctioned. Someone had just decided that they were going to build their home there.
There are areas of Soweto where the most humble of houses would be far beyond my means, and most probably out of reach of the vast majority of members here.
Reference being "excluded from the cities," that's not quite how this aspect of Apartheid functioned.
Many years ago, unless one had definite reaon for entering a residential area set aside for people of a different ethnicity, one was liable to be arrested. This held true for people of all colours, not only for blacks.

True. So you acknowledge that there is a massive disparity of wealth in South Africa, and that Afrikaners tended in the past to also hold those of Indian origin (like Gandhi) and even Euro-Africans (whites) that were culturally from the UK in contempt?


Do you know when Apartheid ended ?

Not exactly, but I'm going to guess about 1989? Pretty close to the fall of communism, when Americans could no longer justify dealing with the Apartheid regime...


Madala received very many white votes during the parody of an election in '94, and was indeed a popular president across the board. Twenty-seven years of reflection had made him realise that for the country to function properly, widespread co-operation was necessary.
He made the very sensible decision to increase his longevity by only standing for one period of the presidency. He was at most risk from the second and third eschelons of his own party.
Which "extremist SA white supremicists neo-Nazis" (can you get any more adjectives into one title ?) were interviewed, ET ?

Yes well, I've read that the ANC is fracturing a bit as a unified political force and we're now seeing the possibility of traditionally white dominated parties increasing their power. I'm not going to research this part, so you can tell me if I am correct, as South Africa is somewhat neglected by my media with the Iraq War and all that...

And as far as the "adjectives," I guess I could have added "militant Afrikaners?" :D

And no, I cannot recall from memory exact details of a Time or US News & WR article read probably 13 years ago. But that was the gist of the article.

Why, do they not exist?


The TRC, was an idea that had a great deal to recommend it, unfortunately the wheels fell off.
It was suggested to the ANC at the bargaining table after they had demanded that all those who committed crimes 'during the struggle' should be absolved.
Absolved they were, if the perpetrator said that it was done for politial reasons and announced his contrition. Can you see the flaw ?
When it came to their ideological aims the ANC had not thought the TRC through, as members of the SAP, (amongst others,) also stepped forward and did the same.
We now have a situation where people who wished to draw a line under the excesses on both sides are being charged with a crime for which they have already received absolution and pardon. Any guesses as to which racial group these might belong ?
One of the many reasons the TRC rapidly received the moniker 'LHC' (Lies and Hatred Commission.)

Yes, well, societies such as El Salvador, Angola, and South Africa that have fought long and bitter civil wars are going to go through these sorts of things, aren't they? But I think overall, there has not been the vengeful and violent anti-white backlash that has happened in the past. I'm not defending political hacks using the TRC for what are partisan ends...


The Rhodesian government was not overthrown by any internal strife, it was sold down the Zambezi by the British Government reneging on treaties entered into in good faith.

LOL Utter bollocks. Yeah, this is amongst the silly stuff you throw out there...

The British gov't could no longer stomach the embarrassment of supporting a gov't that was only democratic for a few, and used their own "state terror" to maintain power...


Uncle Bob was never a guerilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader. He was a politician who unilaterally took command of ZANU when Chitepo was killed, and scant months later ZANU was split along tribal lines due to his manoeuvering other Shona into various positions of power within the organisation.
Growing increasingly annoyed with having to discuss political proposals with his tribal enemies in ZAPU, (while conducting COIN Ops against ZIPRA,) he combined both parties and announced a one party state.
He tried unsucessfully to have Nkomo killed then attempted to arrest him for treason. Nkomo, (the man who laughed on tv when questioned about the attack on the Viscount and subsequent rape and murder of the survivors,) fled the country and was given political sanctuary in the UK.

If only you could tell that to the tens of thousands of Matabele women, children and madalas he had murdered by his 'elite' maShona 5 Bde, a unit answerable only to himself.
And people talked of ethnic cleansing in FRY...

There's some factual stuff along with semantics heavily laden with opinion. Uncle Bob was leading a guerrilla movement that used terror. What sort of bastard he was and how he got to the top is inconsequential, as there were also plenty of bastards "fighting terror" with state terror in the Rhodesian Army and security forces at the time. There's no way the UK was going to continue to support that in light of international condemnation. And I'm not defending Mugabe in any way. But there was viciousness and brutality used on both sides..


Mugabe's death toll hasn't reached the dizzy heights of Lenin. Yet.
But give him time...

Hopefully he'll die soon and his end is only a matter of time. And some newer, better order will take his place. And as you pointed out, his critics are far from only white farmers. And Lenin at least somewhat cared for the people he was murdering in the name of..

Cuts
10-20-2007, 03:41 PM
Those areas of black housing that were (and still are) composed of shacks are the illegal settlements or 'squatter camps,' ie those not officially sanctioned. Someone had just decided that they were going to build their home there.
There are areas of Soweto where the most humble of houses would be far beyond my means, and most probably out of reach of the vast majority of members here.
Reference being "excluded from the cities," that's not quite how this aspect of Apartheid functioned.
Many years ago, unless one had definite reaon for entering a residential area set aside for people of a different ethnicity, one was liable to be arrested. This held true for people of all colours, not only for blacks.
True. So you acknowledge that there is a massive disparity of wealth in South Africa, and that Afrikaners tended in the past to also hold those of Indian origin (like Gandhi) and even Euro-Africans (whites) that were culturally from the UK in contempt?
Some did, most didn't. Very much like it is in every country in the world regardless of ethnicity.



Madala received very many white votes during the parody of an election in '94, and was indeed a popular president across the board. Twenty-seven years of reflection had made him realise that for the country to function properly, widespread co-operation was necessary.
He made the very sensible decision to increase his longevity by only standing for one period of the presidency. He was at most risk from the second and third eschelons of his own party.
Which "extremist SA white supremicists neo-Nazis" (can you get any more adjectives into one title ?) were interviewed, ET ?
Yes well, I've read that the ANC is fracturing a bit as a unified political force and we're now seeing the possibility of traditionally white dominated parties increasing their power. I'm not going to research this part, so you can tell me if I am correct, as South Africa is somewhat neglected by my media with the Iraq War and all that...
The ANC with it's Xhosa grass roots, were supported by the SACP throughout the struggle and into the first election. Once they had come to power they discarded them as the Communists' redistribution of wealth plans went further than the ANC had planned.

The IFP (Inkatha Freedom Party) which has favoured non-violent action (although there was a minority of 'self defence groups') is still a Zulu dominated party, but because of it's tradition of negotiating many other ethnic groups have flocked to them and they have steadily increased their profile in the National Assembly.
The founder and present leader Mangosuthu Buthelezi (famous for his portrayal of Cetshwayo in the film 'Zulu') said yesterday he would not be leading the party into the next election.

The DA (Democratic Alliance) is what you might call a white-dominated party, although as with most parties there are members of all skin hues, and it is the official opposition in parliament. It too has gained seats in the National Assembly.

Elections in South Africa are somewhat different to those in the western world, and the theft and sorting of ballot boxes is not that uncommon, so recorded percentages of the vote are not that indicative of actual public support.

All in all each major party have increased their position in parliament, due in no small part to the minor parties giving up after '94, but that's another discussion.



And as far as the "adjectives," I guess I could have added "militant Afrikaners?" :DYou do seem to have a problem with Afrikaaners, any particular reason ?



And no, I cannot recall from memory exact details of a Time or US News & WR article read probably 13 years ago. But that was the gist of the article.

Why, do they not exist?
Yes there were a couple of extremist groups Wit Wolwe being the ones that were most dangerous though thouroughly penetratd by SAP informers, and the AWB who were in general rather laughable and as insecure as WW.
I was just wondered which individuals were involved in the interview you'd read.



The TRC, was an idea that had a great deal to recommend it, unfortunately the wheels fell off.
It was suggested to the ANC at the bargaining table after they had demanded that all those who committed crimes 'during the struggle' should be absolved.
Absolved they were, if the perpetrator said that it was done for politial reasons and announced his contrition. Can you see the flaw ?
When it came to their ideological aims the ANC had not thought the TRC through, as members of the SAP, (amongst others,) also stepped forward and did the same.
We now have a situation where people who wished to draw a line under the excesses on both sides are being charged with a crime for which they have already received absolution and pardon. Any guesses as to which racial group these might belong ?
One of the many reasons the TRC rapidly received the moniker 'LHC' (Lies and Hatred Commission.)
Yes, well, societies such as El Salvador, Angola, and South Africa that have fought long and bitter civil wars are going to go through these sorts of things, aren't they? But I think overall, there has not been the vengeful and violent anti-white backlash that has happened in the past. I'm not defending political hacks using the TRC for what are partisan ends...
One of the points I tried to get across was that any criminal who had been imprisoned could try for releae if he claimed that he 'only' stole, raped or murdered "for the struggle."
There has been an increase in violent crime due to two rulings brought in by the ANC, the first being the abolishment of capital punishment and the second restrictions on firearms and their use. This, together with the reorganisation of the SAP into the corrupt SAPS, gave a green light to habitual criminals that their use of lethal force would go lightly punished in the unlikely event of their capture.



The Rhodesian government was not overthrown by any internal strife, it was sold down the Zambezi by the British Government reneging on treaties entered into in good faith.
LOL Utter bollocks. Yeah, this is amongst the silly stuff you throw out there...
Oh really ?
Just calling something you don't agree with "bollocks" or "silly" is hardly an argument, please give your reasons.



The British gov't could no longer stomach the embarrassment of supporting a gov't that was only democratic for a few, and used their own "state terror" to maintain power...
What do you mean that it was only democratic for a few, and what do you mean by "state terror" ?



Uncle Bob was never a guerilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader. He was a politician who unilaterally took command of ZANU when Chitepo was killed, and scant months later ZANU was split along tribal lines due to his manoeuvering other Shona into various positions of power within the organisation.
Growing increasingly annoyed with having to discuss political proposals with his tribal enemies in ZAPU, (while conducting COIN Ops against ZIPRA,) he combined both parties and announced a one party state.
He tried unsucessfully to have Nkomo killed then attempted to arrest him for treason. Nkomo, (the man who laughed on tv when questioned about the attack on the Viscount and subsequent rape and murder of the survivors,) fled the country and was given political sanctuary in the UK.

If only you could tell that to the tens of thousands of Matabele women, children and madalas he had murdered by his 'elite' maShona 5 Bde, a unit answerable only to himself.
And people talked of ethnic cleansing in FRY...
There's some factual stuff along with semantics heavily laden with opinion.
SOME factual stuff ?
Please be so kind as to inform me which parts of my post were incorrect.
As to "semantics heavily laden with opinion" - I gave a choice of titles for the position which you incorrectly assumed he held, so you can hardly blame me if you don't like your own choice.

What sort of bastard he was and how he got to the top is inconsequential, as there were also plenty of bastards "fighting terror" with state terror in the Rhodesian Army and security forces at the time.
Once again I'd like to hear more about this "state terror" of which you speak.


There's no way the UK was going to continue to support that in light of international condemnation.
Unless you kept within a very small group of politicised people throughout the Seventies then there wasn't that much "international condemnation."


And I'm not defending Mugabe in any way. But there was viciousness and brutality used on both sides..
Due to the Apartheid system in Rhodesia ?





Mugabe's death toll hasn't reached the dizzy heights of Lenin. Yet.
But give him time...
Hopefully he'll die soon and his end is only a matter of time. And some newer, better order will take his place. And as you pointed out, his critics are far from only white farmers. And Lenin at least somewhat cared for the people he was murdering in the name of..My bold.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last line, could you explain please ?

Nickdfresh
10-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Some did, most didn't. Very much like it is in every country in the world regardless of ethnicity.


Point taken. Agreed...


The ANC with it's Xhosa grass roots, were supported by the SACP throughout the struggle and into the first election. Once they had come to power they discarded them as the Communists' redistribution of wealth plans went further than the ANC had planned.

The IFP (Inkatha Freedom Party) which has favoured non-violent action (although there was a minority of 'self defence groups') is still a Zulu dominated party, but because of it's tradition of negotiating many other ethnic groups have flocked to them and they have steadily increased their profile in the National Assembly.
The founder and present leader Mangosuthu Buthelezi (famous for his portrayal of Cetshwayo in the film 'Zulu') said yesterday he would not be leading the party into the next election.

The DA (Democratic Alliance) is what you might call a white-dominated party, although as with most parties there are members of all skin hues, and it is the official opposition in parliament. It too has gained seats in the National Assembly.

Elections in South Africa are somewhat different to those in the western world, and the theft and sorting of ballot boxes is not that uncommon, so recorded percentages of the vote are not that indicative of actual public support.

All in all each major party have increased their position in parliament, due in no small part to the minor parties giving up after '94, but that's another discussion.

Interesting. Though, maybe they need Diebold to run their elections:)..



You do seem to have a problem with Afrikaaners, any particular reason ?

I have no idea what you mean. you'll have to provide examples of my "problems" with Afrikaners. But rest assured, I do not dream up new ways to abuse them. I have wondered in the past if you have a "problem" with Americans. But Then I realized that I really don't care much one way or another...


Yes there were a couple of extremist groups Wit Wolwe being the ones that were most dangerous though thouroughly penetratd by SAP informers, and the AWB who were in general rather laughable and as insecure as WW.
I was just wondered which individuals were involved in the interview you'd read.

I believe the WW emblem was pictured come to think of it...But it was over decade ago now...


One of the points I tried to get across was that any criminal who had been imprisoned could try for releae if he claimed that he 'only' stole, raped or murdered "for the struggle."

I got your point. I just don't know what the alternatives are, but it would be a bit silly to let rapists out because they're acts were "revolutionary." You might contrast this with some extremist blacks that feel the ANC has not gone far enough...


There has been an increase in violent crime due to two rulings brought in by the ANC, the first being the abolishment of capital punishment and the second restrictions on firearms and their use. This, together with the reorganisation of the SAP into the corrupt SAPS, gave a green light to habitual criminals that their use of lethal force would go lightly punished in the unlikely event of their capture.

Crime has always been a problem there. I think South Africans are amongst the heaviest armed in the world and I've heard stories of openly carrying guns around. And I've yet to see any study that provides a correlation between lower crime rates and the use of the death penalty as a deterrent. Indeed, some of the most violent states in the US are the ones putting the most people to death. And the US statistically puts less people to death now than ever, yet it's rates of murder have dropped since the early 1970s..


Oh really ?
Just calling something you don't agree with "bollocks" or "silly" is hardly an argument, please give your reasons.

Just that any one could summarize that much history by blaming it all on the UK. The argument is that the Rhodesians were living in colonial past that Britain wanted no part of...


What do you mean that it was only democratic for a few,

Minority rule...


and what do you mean by "state terror" ?

Counterinsurgency campaigns with the use of torture, executions, and a military that largely had a free hand to do what it needed....



SOME factual stuff ?
Please be so kind as to inform me which parts of my post were incorrect.
As to "semantics heavily laden with opinion" - I gave a choice of titles for the position which you incorrectly assumed he held, so you can hardly blame me if you don't like your own choice.

You gave an "opinion." And how could give me 'choice titles' of positions I "incorrectly assumed he held?" He either held positions of power or he didn't. And you've confused me because you claim rightly that he was a "politician," but then say he was not a "freedom fighter/guerrilla/terrorist" but mention that he had his own terror goon squad answerable only to him, which is a bit of a contradiction. Isn't it? And he was in command of his forces and ordered terror, or he did not. He was still the leader of ZANLA..


Once again I'd like to hear more about this "state terror" of which you speak.

The above post. I could always link the Amnesty International report, but that would be getting a bit silly at this point...


Unless you kept within a very small group of politicised people throughout the Seventies then there wasn't that much "international condemnation."

You mean like the US and UK governments? The UN? Amnesty Int'l?


Due to the Apartheid system in Rhodesia ?

Due to colonial-style minority rule in Rhodesia...


My bold.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last line, could you explain please ?

I don't how this is relevant. But suffice to say, Lenin was flexible enough to allow the peasants to hold on to their land and appeared to not really profit personally from his brutal excesses. I don't think Mugabe could state the same...

Cuts
10-21-2007, 05:21 AM
You do seem to have a problem with Afrikaaners, any particular reason ?I have no idea what you mean. you'll have to provide examples of my "problems" with Afrikaners. But rest assured, I do not dream up new ways to abuse them.
When you mentioned racism or extremist groups you called them "Afrikaners" [sic] when it would be so much more accurate to say whites.


I have wondered in the past if you have a "problem" with Americans. But Then I realized that I really don't care much one way or another...
I've never had a problem with any nationality, race, creed or colour, I treat everyone as individuals and on a case-by-case basis.
We used to have an odd gentleman here on the site who went by the screen name of 'IRONMAN.'
He was, and I imagine still is, a complete space cadet who plucked 'facts' out of the air as they winged their way through his psychedelic imagination.
He is also American, but I wouldn't for one moment suggest that all Americans are even fractionally as stupid as he.
Do you have any examples that might give you cause to believe I have a "problem" with Americans ?




One of the points I tried to get across was that any criminal who had been imprisoned could try for release if he claimed that he 'only' stole, raped or murdered "for the struggle."I got your point. I just don't know what the alternatives are, but it would be a bit silly to let rapists out because they're acts were "revolutionary." You might contrast this with some extremist blacks that feel the ANC has not gone far enough...My bold.
The higher echelons of the ANC may be corrupt, but they're in no way stupid. They know that for the country to prosper, or at least continue to function, they must ensure that the white-run farms and businesses need to remain as they are. The thinkers in the ANC realise that far-reaching anti-white legislation would be a shot in the foot, both at home and abroad.



Crime has always been a problem there. I think South Africans are amongst the heaviest armed in the world and I've heard stories of openly carrying guns around. My bold.
You are more likely to see people openly carrying firearms on the street, especially military rifles, in Switzerland than South Africa. Besides, in ZA firearms, if worn, must be concealed.


And I've yet to see any study that provides a correlation between lower crime rates and the use of the death penalty as a deterrent. Indeed, some of the most violent states in the US are the ones putting the most people to death. And the US statistically puts less people to death now than ever, yet it's rates of murder have dropped since the early 1970s..My bold.
I know it's a different discussion, but might that not be due in part and more recently to the carry laws that the majority of States have implemented ?




Oh really ?
Just calling something you don't agree with "bollocks" or "silly" is hardly an argument, please give your reasons.Just that any one could summarize that much history by blaming it all on the UK. The argument is that the Rhodesians were living in colonial past that Britain wanted no part of...I didn't mean to summarize the entire history of Rhodesia by blaming it on the UK, perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. The point I was ineptly trying to put across was that the situation in Zimbabwe was not brought about by insurgent military action, but by political manoeuvers primarily within certain sections of the British political scene.
You say that "Rhodesians were living in colonial past that Britain wanted no part of."
Britain had no part of Rhodesia anyway, as the previously mentioned regeneing on treaties had forced the hand of the Rhodesian government into UDI.
The hand of Communism, both from Moscow and Peking was more prevalent, working via their agents and proxies in an attempt to gain control of southern Africa's mineral wealth.



What do you mean that it was only democratic for a few,Minority rule...
Ah yes, democracy. I'm sure it is close to your heart and you would do your utmost to ensure it continues in the United States.
In the same way there are also some very committed Commnists over in Cuba, they believe above all else that Communism is the way forward and would fight to retain it.
But which one of you is correct ? Possibly neither, more likely both, at least to an extent.
You both embrace an ideologies that seem to be ideal for your particular countries, and each has a history of success in your respective countries.

But what about African politics ? It is traditional for black communities to have a headman with whom all the village converse and discuss to address any affairs concening their lives.
The headman take the village decision to the area chief who in turn takes it to the Paramount Chiefs who hold an indaba.
From there any concerns are taken to the legislature, this ensures that matters of even small importance to individuals have the opportunity of being heard at the highest level.
Traditions are important to most people the world over, and not least in sub-Saharan Africa.

What gives the western world the right to impose a 'european' (or 'western' if you prefer,) system on an African country ?
If imposition of values works in one direction then, in fairness, it works in the other.
So in the spirit of equity you should have no problem with some foreign values being imposed on your own land.
If you truly believe that you may obtrude your principles on another country, would you object to Sharia law being brought into your criminal justice system ?

An object lesson in this was given to me by a woman I have known for many years and for whom I have the utmost respect.
While talking about the then upcoming '94 elections and her thoughts on the new-found 'freedom,' she intoned, "Mandela is a dog and Buthelezi is a liar. Voting ? That should be left to whites, we have our ways."
Another incident concerned a madala to whom I was chatting about 'The New South Africa' a couple of years ago. He told me, "Before I could not vote but now I have that freedom. It is not so good, you cannot eat a vote."




and what do you mean by "state terror" ? Counterinsurgency campaigns with the use of torture, executions, and a military that largely had a free hand to do what it needed....
Why do you say that the military had a free hand to do what it needed ?
Are you against all taking of human life such as legal executions ?




SOME factual stuff ?
Please be so kind as to inform me which parts of my post were incorrect.
As to "semantics heavily laden with opinion" - I gave a choice of titles for the position which you incorrectly assumed he held, so you can hardly blame me if you don't like your own choice.You gave an "opinion."
No, I presented some corroborated facts, although knowing you believe my opinion is the same as fact could be considered flattering.


And how could give me 'choice titles' of positions I "incorrectly assumed he held?"Do you mean 'how' or 'why' ?You assumed that he was a "guerrilla commander" and I presented three titles that people give to such depending on their political leanings.


He either held positions of power or he didn't. He held the position of leadership of ZANU, and I stated as much.


And you've confused me because you claim rightly that he was a "politician," but then say he was not a "freedom fighter/guerrilla/terrorist" but mention that he had his own terror goon squad answerable only to him, which is a bit of a contradiction. Isn't it? Not in the slightest. Fifth Bde was formed in 1981, over a year after he had become Prime Minister of Zimbabwe and as such the de facto head of state.


And he was in command of his forces and ordered terror, or he did not. After Five Bdewas formed they were answerable only to the Prime Minister, Mugabe.
As a British cabinet minister said a couple of years ago, "They do things differently in Africa" - as if that excuses ethnic cleansing.


He was still the leader of ZANLA.. He became the ZANLA leader by default after the loss of Tongogara, but by that time he had little to do as the war was drawing to a close and he had bigger fish to fry in international politics. Actual comd of ZANLA fell to subordinates.




Once again I'd like to hear more about this "state terror" of which you speak.

The above post. I could always link the Amnesty International report, but that would be getting a bit silly at this point...
You are completely correct, AI's report would be silly.
While they have some laudably lofty ideals their definition of torture is often bodering on the ridiculous.
For example, a few years ago they accused the police in Denmark of all places of torture.
It transpired that they had cuffed violent criminals in a manner known as 'hog-tying,' where the arrested man has his legs held by his handcuffs.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5291/hogtiedxz0.jpg
This is not torture or even a stress position, although it does prevent the individual from fleeing justice.

I'm sure that there were individuals that went over the mark during interrogation of captured
terrs, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule in the same way that the vast majority of US troops in Iraq comport themselves in an honourable manner. There was no 'free hand' for state sponsored torture.

Kato
10-21-2007, 08:35 AM
Then why did Israel fly a bunch of Jewish Ethiopians out during the 80s famines? Why are a number of Ethiopians Jewish, as they always have been going back to ancient Egypt?

The limited number of negros that were evacuated to Israel were jews only in religious sence. That humanitarian gesture was made out of religious considerations. Besides Israel wasn't and isn't a very popular place among ethnical Jews for emigration. The Jews from the compass of the former Soviet Union have preferred to move to well-to-do and safe Europe, especially post-war Germany, USA etc. The jews who already live in Europe and the US are reluctant to move to Israel as well.




I also noticed that you failed to account for the theory of some African American 'black nationalists' that much of the very successful Egyptian Empire was at least partially run by black Africans, not Arabs. BTW, I'm not endorsing this theory since it's largely irrelevant and based on flimsy, self-serving scholarship (much like the studies indicating blacks as dumber than white)..

The Egyptian Empire was run by black Africans at the last stage of its existence.
As a result of it the Egyptian Empire completely degenerated, collapsed and was conquered by non-black nomads.

It is just an example what is to happen to a nation when it is run by black Africans.

Rising Sun*
10-21-2007, 09:36 AM
The Egyptian Empire was run by black Africans at the last stage of its existence.

As a result of it the Egyptian Empire completely degenerated, collapsed and was conquered by non-black nomads.

It is just an example what is to happen to a nation when it is run by black Africans.

Post hoc, propter hoc arguments are usually weak or illogical. In this case they are both, as well as insupportable.


Nazi Germany was run by the [supposedly] purest whites for its whole existence.

Which blacks did anything remotely like as bad as the Nazis?

Could anyone have collapsed a state more than the Nazis did 1939-45?

Apart from the Japanese, also not remotely African, 1941-45?



The West took slaves out of Africa for a few centuries.

Which blacks took white slaves on anything remotely like the same scale? Or any white slaves?


Sure, black Africa is mostly a basket case.

Which distinguishes it from what?

Arab Africa? Albania? Iraq? Bangladesh? New Guinea?

Nickdfresh
10-21-2007, 11:21 AM
When you mentioned racism or extremist groups you called them "Afrikaners" [sic] when it would be so much more accurate to say whites.

NO. I said MILITANT Afrikaners. There's a big difference there mate. I think you project too much...

And I have indeed also referred them as "whites" and "Euro-Africans" (not sure if that is even a term, but if it is, it would be a term that would strip black-African militant racists like Mugabe - although I'm unsure if he hates whites to any greater extent that he can exploit them politically to enrich himself and to oppress all Zimbabweans) of a lot of their anti-white arguments, since white Afrikaners are NO LESS Africans than are the blacks...


I've never had a problem with any nationality, race, creed or colour, I treat everyone as individuals and on a case-by-case basis.
We used to have an odd gentleman here on the site who went by the screen name of 'IRONMAN.'
He was, and I imagine still is, a complete space cadet who plucked 'facts' out of the air as they winged their way through his psychedelic imagination.
He is also American, but I wouldn't for one moment suggest that all Americans are even fractionally as stupid as he.
Do you have any examples that might give you cause to believe I have a "problem" with Americans ?

Not really, although I have seen some idle speculations around here of "septic" Yank and some have stated that the US had a premeditated plan to strip Britain of her empire post-WWII. (and I am not saying it was you - just making a general comment) I never was offended and saw it as more funny than anything. But whatever. Apparently you infer things in my posts that are not there.


My bold.
The higher echelons of the ANC may be corrupt, but they're in no way stupid. They know that for the country to prosper, or at least continue to function, they must ensure that the white-run farms and businesses need to remain as they are. The thinkers in the ANC realise that far-reaching anti-white legislation would be a shot in the foot, both at home and abroad.

That's the impression that I have gotten. That the ANC's tradition, unlike some others and despite some reprehensible acts of terror they were behind in the War, is a genuine ideal of wanting the best for their nation...


My bold.
You are more likely to see people openly carrying firearms on the street, especially military rifles, in Switzerland than South Africa. Besides, in ZA firearms, if worn, must be concealed.

Perhaps. Same with Israel. But that doesn't change the fact the SA is one of the most armed countries on earth, and that's not a criticism since I would surely own a small arsenal myself if I lived there.


My bold.
I know it's a different discussion, but might that not be due in part and more recently to the carry laws that the majority of States have implemented ?

No. If anything, firearms laws have become more restrictive overall, but not by much.

The drop in crime rate is mostly seen directly correlating to economic factors and the gradual waining of societal upheavals of the 1960s and early 70s, and possibly better, more enlightened law enforcement concepts such as "community policing"...


I didn't mean to summarize the entire history of Rhodesia by blaming it on the UK, perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. The point I was ineptly trying to put across was that the situation in Zimbabwe was not brought about by insurgent military action, but by political manoeuvers primarily within certain sections of the British political scene.
You say that "Rhodesians were living in colonial past that Britain wanted no part of."
Britain had no part of Rhodesia anyway, as the previously mentioned regeneing on treaties had forced the hand of the Rhodesian government into UDI.
The hand of Communism, both from Moscow and Peking was more prevalent, working via their agents and proxies in an attempt to gain control of southern Africa's mineral wealth.

Yes, but the British pretty much detached itself from any official status with Rhodesia after the 1960s I think. Certainly the Cold War, "third world liberation movements," and the general rise of anti-colonial feeling during the period all contributed. Of course ZALA and the other group were armed by various members of the communist bloc, although a lot of individual countries adhering to world wide revolution were themselves just neo-imperialists competing against each other. But of course, there is another view, that if the leaders of Rhodesia had engaged in a more moderate course of pluralistic politics and engaged "the hearts and minds" earlier, they would have avoided the politics of extreme discontent that the Soviets and Chinese were able to exploit rather adeptly, although one can say even they f---ed up what advantages they often had.

The question begs: would Mugabe and the other tyrants that road to power on the back of black nationalist 'third world liberation' even exist if Rhodesia had liberalized itself with reforms much earlier? I don't think we can say one way or another. But the assumption that letting blacks govern their nations would lead to a complete breakdown and failed states was as much a self-fulfilling prophecy caused by some Whites trying to maintain a two-color state as it was in any way inevitable...

I know the Rhodesian Army was quit effective and was never defeated on the battlefield, but the US can say the same in Vietnam...


Ah yes, democracy. I'm sure it is close to your heart and you would do your utmost to ensure it continues in the United States.
In the same way there are also some very committed Commnists over in Cuba, they believe above all else that Communism is the way forward and would fight to retain it.
But which one of you is correct ? Possibly neither, more likely both, at least to an extent.
You both embrace an ideologies that seem to be ideal for your particular countries, and each has a history of success in your respective countries.

Well, I guess there are worse things than democracy. And as for Fidel- well, before communism, Cuba's way was to be run by despotic and corrupt military dictatorships. Because they were run by Batista in conjunction with organized crime - does that make that an inherent Cuban value? Casinos, rich Americans vacationing, etc are not necessarily Cuban values. You have to go back to the Spanish imperial occupation to get an actual feel for Cuban culture, but the Cubans that have emigrated to the US after the revolution do not seem to be inherently fascist (well, we could argue I suppose...:)) and have adeptly influenced the political system to their often short sighted ends. Apparently being run by strongmen is a value, but then, it has been said that Castro was never really ideologically a complete adherent to the ideology of Marxism, but is just used it as reflection of his megalomania after being a bit spurned by the Eisenhower Admin and then simply gave himself, and Cuba, over to the Soviet bloc. Castro's done quit well personally from the deal it is said.:) There were many Cuban socialists and liberals in the Revolution that objected to this...But Castro is himself a product of colonialism, not of the reform of it...


But what about African politics ? It is traditional for black communities to have a headman with whom all the village converse and discuss to address any affairs concening their lives.
The headman take the village decision to the area chief who in turn takes it to the Paramount Chiefs who hold an indaba.
From there any concerns are taken to the legislature, this ensures that matters of even small importance to individuals have the opportunity of being heard at the highest level.
Traditions are important to most people the world over, and not least in sub-Saharan Africa.

Not ALL black African societies work this way. Indeed there are cultural differences indemic to each tribe. Some tribes for instance are maternal, where women are dominant, etc. That seems to be a bit of a blanket statement. In any case, the black Africans have had over century of Euro-political models in which an emperor, king, queen presided over a feudal system of the royally titled. Does that mean white culture is immune to populist democratic concerns? A gradual system of reform in conjunction with economic realities have devolved power into a democratic ideal that varies according to cultural model.


What gives the western world the right to impose a 'european' (or 'western' if you prefer,) system on an African country ?
If imposition of values works in one direction then, in fairness, it works in the other.
So in the spirit of equity you should have no problem with some foreign values being imposed on your own land.
If you truly believe that you may obtrude your principles on another country, would you object to Sharia law being brought into your criminal justice system ?

I thought most of the white Rhodesians in effect thought of themselves as a European nation transplanted to Africa?

Cont'd (this is getting really long :( )

Nickdfresh
10-21-2007, 11:22 AM
Part two of the Cuts vs. NickD argument thread:


An object lesson in this was given to me by a woman I have known for many years and for whom I have the utmost respect.
While talking about the then upcoming '94 elections and her thoughts on the new-found 'freedom,' she intoned, "Mandela is a dog and Buthelezi is a liar. Voting ? That should be left to whites, we have our ways."
Another incident concerned a madala to whom I was chatting about 'The New South Africa' a couple of years ago. He told me, "Before I could not vote but now I have that freedom. It is not so good, you cannot eat a vote."

Yeah, well, you cannot eat or vote in Mugabe's fascist gangster state either. Well, I suppose you can vote, as long as it's for Mugabe. :) I think South Africans are eating, and reforms are gradual. The right to vote does not necessarily translate into flowers growing everywhere and the smell of incense permeating the air.

Would the Irish complain about their political system today? Is there an Irish movement to return to the crown? Do Irish-Protestants living in Dublin view themselves as anything other than Irish today? No, not really. And yes, people are bitter when they have to give up something. But sometimes you have to grow up, and realize that sacrifice to the greater good is what makes civilization possible, not just rubber hoses, tear gas, and live ammunition being fired into civilian housing areas...


Why do you say that the military had a free hand to do what it needed ?

Oh sorry, my bad. The Rhodesian Army pranced around throwing flowers with the preeminent concern for human rights and dignity...:) That's what nasty counterinsurgencies are all about.

I mean, there was virtually no real restricitions on what their special operations troops could do. I suppose internment, torture, secret executions, no autonomous oversight, etc. - don't count as having a free hand under a "state of emergency?" I'm sure some Rhodesian soldiers were arrested for some excesses. But I doubt it was very many. And the state of emergency did indeed give a free hand to those in the fighting. And Rhodesian intelligence was not exactly noted for its concern with blacks cooperating with the insurgents...


Are you against all taking of human life such as legal executions ?

You mean like the "legal" ones Hitler or Stalin performed? No, I'm not big on the death penalty, but I'm not exactly marching against it either. But putting that aside, there was very clearly a duel judicial system used to treat "terrorist" suspects differently than a white criminal, was there not?


No, I presented some corroborated facts, although knowing you believe my opinion is the same as fact could be considered flattering.

You presented an emotional, partisan opinion. No different than some black nationalists calling the leaders of Rhodesia "white colonial overlords" in an attempt to dismiss one's enemy in every way possible, even to the point of contridiction. Mugabe is easy to dismiss, and I'm aware he was no "guerilla" warrior of note, but he was in command of a politcal-military movement, one that used terrorism as a tactic. Your pointing to the "letter of the law" whilst forgetting the "spirit" of it...


Do you mean 'how' or 'why' ?You assumed that he was a "guerrilla commander" and I presented three titles that people give to such depending on their political leanings.

He held the position of leadership of ZANU, and I stated as much.

Well, what was his command of "his 'elite' maShona 5 Bde?" Did he "command guerrillas or not?! Did he use "terrorist" methods or not. You indeed said that he's "not (a) terrorist." Mate, your fumbling all over your semantic definitions here, and I find it a tad insulting. But whatever, you'll you continue to act as I've offended you then throw out these easily dismissible red herrings. Whatever. But you can't just attempt to dismiss him as an oafish corrupt politician and then indite him as a vicious brute in command of paramilitary and terror organs. It's a silly contradiction. How could he have committed policies such as "conducting COIN" operations against the forces of his rivals if he wasn't a "guerrilla commander?" Then was he an army commander?


Not in the slightest. Fifth Bde was formed in 1981, over a year after he had become Prime Minister of Zimbabwe and as such the de facto head of state.

So what did he do during the War? Wait for everyone to fight it out and then swoop in and take power? That seems a bit unlikely. But fine, we'll agree to disagree. He was an army commander then since the 5th BDE is an army formation.


After Five Bdewas formed they were answerable only to the Prime Minister, Mugabe.
As a British cabinet minister said a couple of years ago, "They do things differently in Africa" - as if that excuses ethnic cleansing.

So he's still not a "terrorist" then?


He became the ZANLA leader by default after the loss of Tongogara, but by that time he had little to do as the war was drawing to a close and he had bigger fish to fry in international politics. Actual comd of ZANLA fell to subordinates.

Again, you're just oversimplifying things on a mission to completely discredit Uncle Bob from both sides of the argument. He is a terrorist and was a leader of guerrillas. Unfortunately the freedom fighter thing was a casualty of actions. Why don't you leave the politicised discrediting to him, he's much better at it than you are, mate.


You are completely correct, AI's report would be silly.
While they have some laudably lofty ideals their definition of torture is often bodering on the ridiculous.

Yeah, screw human rights!


For example, a few years ago they accused the police in Denmark of all places of torture.

It transpired that they had cuffed violent criminals in a manner known as 'hog-tying,' where the arrested man has his legs held by his handcuffs.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5291/hogtiedxz0.jpg
This is not torture or even a stress position, although it does prevent the individual from fleeing justice.

Um, that looks quite painful actually...What it specifically has to do with argument I know not. But being hog tied can be quite painful. I've been! If someone is left long enough in that position, they would certain feel great pain.

That's like saying throwing someone out in the cold isn't really torture. Stand naked in the cold enough, and you'll disagree...

Good luck with the anti-Amnesty International campaign though!


I'm sure that there were individuals that went over the mark during interrogation of captured
terrs, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule in the same way that the vast majority of US troops in Iraq comport themselves in an honourable manner. There was no 'free hand' for state sponsored torture.

I'm not arguing they do. But those that have committed rapes, extra-judicial killings, and in some putrid cases that do go far enough on the chain of command - torture, whether it was the result of some uneducated Reserve troops from West Virginia; or part of a greater misuse of a plan to target Islamic insurgents that was grossly misapplied (and a few lower enlisted people used as scapegoats) is an open question and part of another discussion...

In any case, I do not support the occupation of Iraq partly because of the above and for our support for the Shiite gov't, which uses these methods to a great extent. And to think of what we said about Saddam's torture chambers. But again that's another discussion..

Nickdfresh
10-21-2007, 11:30 AM
The limited number of negros that were evacuated to Israel were jews only in religious sence. That humanitarian gesture was made out of religious considerations. Besides Israel wasn't and isn't a very popular place among ethnical Jews for emigration. The Jews from the compass of the former Soviet Union have preferred to move to well-to-do and safe Europe, especially post-war Germany, USA etc. The jews who already live in Europe and the US are reluctant to move to Israel as well.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You really should stick to the Ukranian stuff where you have a vestige of credibility left...

You failed to answer why some "Negroid" Ethiopians are Jewish, which was the cusp of my point. The flight of "Negroes" to Israel was just a fact...

And immigration to Israel has exploded...


The Egyptian Empire was run by black Africans at the last stage of its existence.
As a result of it the Egyptian Empire completely degenerated, collapsed and was conquered by non-black nomads.

It is just an example what is to happen to a nation when it is run by black Africans.

I'm not even going to bother... :rolleyes: I think RS already has stated why this point is such utter crap...

Cuts
10-21-2007, 03:11 PM
When you mentioned racism or extremist groups you called them "Afrikaners" [sic] when it would be so much more accurate to say whites.NO. I said MILITANT Afrikaners. There's a big difference there mate. I think you project too much...
Calm down. I had noticed it a couple of times and was unsure as to why you mentioned Afrikaaners in preference to the other white groups in South Africa.

True. So you acknowledge that there is a massive disparity of wealth in South Africa, and that Afrikaners tended in the past to also hold those of Indian origin (like Gandhi) and even Euro-Africans (whites) that were culturally from the UK in contempt?My bold.


And I have indeed also referred them as "whites" and "Euro-Africans" (not sure if that is even a term, but if it is, it would be a term that would strip black-African militant racists like Mugabe - although I'm unsure if he hates whites to any greater extent that he can exploit them politically to enrich himself and to oppress all Zimbabweans) of a lot of their anti-white arguments, since white Afrikaners are NO LESS Africans than are the blacks...My bold.
True, and refreshing to see it noted.



I've never had a problem with any nationality, race, creed or colour, I treat everyone as individuals and on a case-by-case basis.
We used to have an odd gentleman here on the site who went by the screen name of 'IRONMAN.'
He was, and I imagine still is, a complete space cadet who plucked 'facts' out of the air as they winged their way through his psychedelic imagination.
He is also American, but I wouldn't for one moment suggest that all Americans are even fractionally as stupid as he.
Do you have any examples that might give you cause to believe I have a "problem" with Americans ?
Not really, although I have seen some idle speculations around here of "septic" Yank and some have stated that the US had a premeditated plan to strip Britain of her empire post-WWII. (and I am not saying it was you - just making a general comment) I never was offended and saw it as more funny than anything. But whatever. Apparently you infer things in my posts that are not there.
I don't believe I inferred anything that wasn't there when I asked if you had any examples that might give you cause to believe I had a "problem" with Americans, after, in post 112 of this thread, I had read:

I have wondered in the past if you have a "problem" with Americans.



The higher echelons of the ANC may be corrupt, but they're in no way stupid. They know that for the country to prosper, or at least continue to function, they must ensure that the white-run farms and businesses need to remain as they are. The thinkers in the ANC realise that far-reaching anti-white legislation would be a shot in the foot, both at home and abroad.That's the impression that I have gotten. That the ANC's tradition, unlike some others and despite some reprehensible acts of terror they were behind in the War, is a genuine ideal of wanting the best for their nation...Yes, there are very many ANC members who really do want the country to move forward as one, most notably Tutu who seems truly to be a man of peace now, but unfortunately there are also a large number that just want to feather their own personal nest.
This shouldn't necessarily be seen as corruption, as in the tradition of many Southern African peoples one looks after one's family, village and tribe, in that order.



You are more likely to see people openly carrying firearms on the street, especially military rifles, in Switzerland than South Africa. Besides, in ZA firearms, if worn, must be concealed.Perhaps. Same with Israel. But that doesn't change the fact the SA is one of the most armed countries on earth, and that's not a criticism since I would surely own a small arsenal myself if I lived there.
I can understand the Israelis having a high percentage of citizens that own or carry firearms, but Switzerland hardly faces a similar level of terrorism and/or violent crime as does Israel or ZA.
I can understand you wishing to own firearms if you lived in South Africa and it is indeed possible, but anyone applying for a licence these days had better be prepared for a lot of bureaucracy and a long wait.
However, ownership per capita is considerably less than a number of european countries.




I know it's a different discussion, but might that not be due in part and more recently to the carry laws that the majority of States have implemented ?No. If anything, firearms laws have become more restrictive overall, but not by much. Really ? That surprises me considering the availbility of CCW permits, but you live and learn.



I didn't mean to summarize the entire history of Rhodesia by blaming it on the UK, perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. The point I was ineptly trying to put across was that the situation in Zimbabwe was not brought about by insurgent military action, but by political manoeuvers primarily within certain sections of the British political scene.
You say that "Rhodesians were living in colonial past that Britain wanted no part of."
Britain had no part of Rhodesia anyway, as the previously mentioned regeneing on treaties had forced the hand of the Rhodesian government into UDI.

Yes, but the British pretty much detached itself from any official status with Rhodesia after the 1960s I think. Actually it was the other way round, Rhodesia detatched herself from Britain by declaring independence on the eleventh of November 1965, causing Wilson to spit the dummy despite being the cause of it.
The British (Labour) government tried to re-assert it's influence over Rhodesia just after UDI and again following the '74 election.

I know the Rhodesian Army was quit effective and was never defeated on the battlefield, but the US can say the same in Vietnam...
Ultimately it was American politicians and 'celebrities' that undermined the efforts of the individual grunt on the ground, a slap in the face to those risking their lives.
Plus ça change...


Well, I guess there are worse things than democracy.
No doubt about it.



But what about African politics ? It is traditional for black communities to have a headman with whom all the village converse and discuss to address any affairs concening their lives.
The headman take the village decision to the area chief who in turn takes it to the Paramount Chiefs who hold an indaba.
From there any concerns are taken to the legislature, this ensures that matters of even small importance to individuals have the opportunity of being heard at the highest level.
Traditions are important to most people the world over, and not least in sub-Saharan Africa.
Not ALL black African societies work this way. Indeed there are cultural differences indemic to each tribe. Some tribes for instance are maternal, where women are dominant, etc. That seems to be a bit of a blanket statement.
My apologies, as we had been speaking of southern Africa in general and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and ZA in particular I erroneously thought you would realise I hadn't changed the location. I shall endeavour to make this clearer in future posts.


In any case, the black Africans have had over century of Euro-political models in which an emperor, king, queen presided over a feudal system of the royally titled. Does that mean white culture is immune to populist democratic concerns? Not in the least, as modern society proves.
Conversely, many Southern African black tribes have an abhorrence of losing any of their traditions, something they perceive to be what makes them the people they are.
This is probably most perceptible in the not unfounded trust and belief in the sangomas* and their muti, even amongst the well-educated.
(*'Witch doctors' for want of a better word.)


I thought most of the white Rhodesians in effect thought of themselves as a European nation transplanted to Africa?
None of those I know. Indeed those who have moved to other continents still consider themselves displaced Africans.
There are of course some people that moved there and felt themselves to be ex-pats, but then they had a strong feeling for the land of their birth.

Kato
10-21-2007, 04:10 PM
You failed to answer why some "Negroid" Ethiopians are Jewish, which was the cusp of my point. The flight of "Negroes" to Israel was just a fact...


Because Ethiopians converted to Judaism when Jews had influence in Ethiopia in ancient times just as other Negros were converted to Christianity in the XIX century

Kato
10-21-2007, 04:33 PM
Nazi Germany was run by the [supposedly] purest whites for its whole existence.

Which blacks did anything remotely like as bad as the Nazis?


They cannot do anything remotely like as bad as the Nazis due to the full inabilty to compete with whites in military respect. It does not have anytning to do with their moral
qualities. What's more the majority of white moral notions and concepts ( humanism etc.) are absent in traditional African cultures.


Could anyone have collapsed a state more than the Nazis did 1939-45?

The Nazi state was collapsed by the main world super-powers that had the absolute military superiority.

Nickdfresh
10-21-2007, 05:45 PM
They cannot do anything remotely like as bad as the Nazis due to the full inabilty to compete with whites in military respect. It does not have anytning to do with their moral
qualities.


Prior to the Tuskegee Airmen, no US military pilots had been African American. However, a series of legislative moves by the United States Congress in 1941 forced the Army Air Corps to form an all-black combat unit, much to the War Department's chagrin. In an effort to eliminate the unit before it could begin, the War Department set up a system to accept only those with a level of flight experience or higher education that they expected would be hard to fill. This policy backfired when the Air Corps received numerous applications from men who qualified even under these restrictions.

The US Army Air Corps had established the Psychological Research Unit 1 at Maxwell Army Air Field, Alabama, and other units around the country for aviation cadet training, which included the identification, selection, education, and training of pilots, navigators and bombardiers. Psychologists employed in these research studies and training programs used some of the first standardized tests to quantify IQ, dexterity, and leadership qualities in order to select and train the right personnel for the right role (bombardier, pilot, navigator). The Air Corps determined that the same existing programs would be used for all units, including all-black units. At Tuskegee, this effort would continue with the selection and training of the Tuskegee Airmen.
...
In response, a hearing was convened before the House Armed Services Committee to determine whether the Tuskegee Airmen "experiment" should be allowed to continue. The committee accused the Airmen of being incompetent — based on the fact that they had not seen any combat in the entire time the "experiment" had been underway. To bolster the recommendation to scrap the project, a member of the committee commissioned and then submitted into evidence a "scientific" report by the University of Texas which purported to prove that Negroes were of low intelligence and incapable of handling complex situations (such as air combat). The majority of the Committee, however, decided in the Airmen's favor, and the 99th Pursuit Squadron soon joined two new squadrons out of Tuskegee to form the all-black 332nd Fighter Group.
...
By the end of the war, the Tuskegee Airmen were credited with 109 Luftwaffe aircraft shot down,[5] a patrol boat run aground by machine-gun fire, and destruction of numerous fuel dumps, trucks and trains. The squadrons of the 332nd FG flew more than 15,000 sorties on 1,500 missions. The unit received recognition through official channels and was awarded a Distinguished Unit Citation for a mission flown 24 March 1945, escorting B-17s to bomb the Daimler-Benz tank factory at Berlin, Germany, an action in which its pilots destroyed three Me-262 jets in aerial combat. The 99th Fighter Squadron in addition received two DUCs, the second after its assignment to the 332nd FG.[4] The Tuskegee Airmen were awarded several Silver Stars, 150 Distinguished Flying Crosses, 14 Bronze Stars and 744 Air Medals.

In all, 992 pilots were trained in Tuskegee from 1940 to 1946; about 445 deployed overseas, and 150 Airmen lost their lives in training or combat.[12]

Far from failing as originally expected, a combination of pre-war experience and the personal drive of those accepted for training had resulted in some of the best pilots in the US Army Air Corps. Nevertheless, the Tuskegee Airmen continued to have to fight racism. Their combat record did much to quiet those directly involved with the group (notably bomber crews who often requested them for escort), but other units were less than interested and continued to harass the Airmen.

All of these events appear to have simply stiffened the Airmen's resolve to fight for their own rights in the US. After the war, the Tuskegee Airmen once again found themselves isolated. In 1949 the 332nd entered the yearly gunnery competition and won. After segregation in the military was ended in 1948 by President Harry S. Truman with Executive Order 9981, the Tuskegee Airmen now found themselves in high demand throughout the newly formed United States Air Force.

Many of the surviving members of the Tuskegee Airmen annually participate in the Tuskegee Airmen Convention, which is hosted by Tuskegee Airmen, Inc.[13]

In 2005, four Tuskegee Airmen (Lt. Col. Lee Archer, Lt. Col. Robert Ashby, MSgt. James Sheppard, and TechSgt. George Watson) flew to Balad, Iraq, to speak to active duty airmen serving in the current incarnation of the 332nd, reactivated as first the 332d Air Expeditionary Group in 1998 and made part of the 332d Air Expeditionary Wing. "This group represents the linkage between the 'greatest generation' of airmen and the 'latest generation' of airmen," said Lt. Gen. Walter E. Buchanan III, commander of the Ninth Air Force and US Central Command Air Forces, in an e-mail to the Associated Press.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen


Your about 65 years behind the times. Seriously...:rolleyes:


What's more the majority of white moral notions and concepts ( humanism etc.) are absent in traditional African cultures.


http://www.pariswerlin.com/images/photos/nigel/holocaust.jpg
http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/ukrainian_insurgent_atrocities/volhynia_pictures/volhynia_04.jpg
Really? **** good a lot of those notions of "humanism" have done...


The Nazi state was collapsed by the main world super-powers that had the absolute military superiority.

Or the Rwandan Civil War, in which a small minority Tutsi Army facing a better armed majority of Hutus that had murdered a large segment of the their population were able to unilaterally conquer Rwanda and stop the genocide?

Kato
10-21-2007, 05:56 PM
Your about 65 years behind the times. Seriously...

Tuskegee Airmen used planes designed, produced and maintained by whites.

How would you explain the fact that the African states still fully depend on white pilots and technicians to use their planes, helicopters after 65 years since this experiment with
Tuskegee Airmen?

Kato
10-21-2007, 06:05 PM
Really? **** good a lot of those notions of "humanism" have done...

So what? Nevertheless you deny racial differences on the grounds related to some sort of humanism. I state that in the primitive societies of Africans such elevated notions do not exist. They would consider such things as weaknesses and not virtues.

Kato
10-21-2007, 06:07 PM
Your about 65 years behind the times. Seriously...

Have negros won at least one war against whites?

Nickdfresh
10-21-2007, 06:23 PM
I swear you must be a troll to make Ukrainians look foolish...

My last post to you...

Egorka
10-22-2007, 01:15 AM
I swear you must be a troll to make Ukrainians look foolish...

My last post to you...

Unfortunately he is not trolling!!! And THAT is the problem!

Egorka
10-22-2007, 01:21 AM
And here is my 5 cents about the James D. Watson's statement:

If you are smarter than someone does not mean you are better!
That is the problem that many peope think that just because they can calculate square route of number 13 in their head it makes them somehow objectively better.
I am afraid the Lord will surprise them once they face Him.

Cuts
10-22-2007, 05:29 PM
An object lesson in this was given to me by a woman I have known for many years and for whom I have the utmost respect.
While talking about the then upcoming '94 elections and her thoughts on the new-found 'freedom,' she intoned, "Mandela is a dog and Buthelezi is a liar. Voting ? That should be left to whites, we have our ways."
Another incident concerned a madala to whom I was chatting about 'The New South Africa' a couple of years ago. He told me, "Before I could not vote but now I have that freedom. It is not so good, you cannot eat a vote."
Yeah, well, you cannot eat or vote in Mugabe's fascist gangster state either. Well, I suppose you can vote, as long as it's for Mugabe. :) I think South Africans are eating, and reforms are gradual. The right to vote does not necessarily translate into flowers growing everywhere and the smell of incense permeating the air.
Don't shoot the messenger !
The point was that the very people who were supposed to benefit from the 'new' system were disinterested or disappointed.



Why do you say that the military had a free hand to do what it needed ?
Oh sorry, my bad. The Rhodesian Army pranced around throwing flowers with the preeminent concern for human rights and dignity...:) That's what nasty counterinsurgencies are all about.

I mean, there was virtually no real restricitions on what their special operations troops could do.
Interesting. From where do you draw these observations ?



Are you against all taking of human life such as legal executions ?
You mean like the "legal" ones Hitler or Stalin performed? No, I'm not big on the death penalty, but I'm not exactly marching against it either.
No, I meant legal executions carried out by non-dictatorial states for legislated crimes such as murder and treason, but thank you for your answer.


But putting that aside, there was very clearly a duel judicial system used to treat "terrorist" suspects differently than a white criminal, was there not?
The way you differentiate between a terrorist and a white criminal could be taken to infer that there were no whites involved in any of the terrorist attacks and/or there were no black criminals.
Not a dual judicial system, although someone who has just tortured and murdered the men of a kraal in front of their wives and children is definitely going to be treated differently to somebody that has stolen a vehicle. Do you think it should be otherwise ?





Uncle Bob was never a guerilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader. He was a politician who unilaterally took command of ZANU when Chitepo was killed, and scant months later ZANU was split along tribal lines due to his manoeuvering other Shona into various positions of power within the organisation.
Growing increasingly annoyed with having to discuss political proposals with his tribal enemies in ZAPU, (while conducting COIN Ops against ZIPRA,) he combined both parties and announced a one party state.
He tried unsucessfully to have Nkomo killed then attempted to arrest him for treason. Nkomo, (the man who laughed on tv when questioned about the attack on the Viscount and subsequent rape and murder of the survivors,) fled the country and was given political sanctuary in the UK.

There's some factual stuff along with semantics heavily laden with opinion.
No, I presented some corroborated facts, although knowing you believe my opinion is the same as fact could be considered flattering.
You presented an emotional, partisan opinion. No different than some black nationalists calling the leaders of Rhodesia "white colonial overlords" in an attempt to dismiss one's enemy in every way possible, even to the point of contridiction. Mugabe is easy to dismiss, and I'm aware he was no "guerilla" warrior of note, but he was in command of a politcal-military movement, one that used terrorism as a tactic.

Could you point out which parts of the following text you consider to be emotional and partisan please ?
Text begins:Uncle Bob was never a guerilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader. He was a politician who unilaterally took command of ZANU when Chitepo was killed, and scant months later ZANU was split along tribal lines due to his manoeuvering other Shona into various positions of power within the organisation.
Growing increasingly annoyed with having to discuss political proposals with his tribal enemies in ZAPU, (while conducting COIN Ops against ZIPRA,) he combined both parties and announced a one party state.
He tried unsucessfully to have Nkomo killed then attempted to arrest him for treason. Nkomo, (the man who laughed on tv when questioned about the attack on the Viscount and subsequent rape and murder of the survivors,) fled the country and was given political sanctuary in the UK.Text ends.


Your pointing to the "letter of the law" whilst forgetting the "spirit" of it...If that position were to hold any water there would be no point in legal definitions.



Do you mean 'how' or 'why' ?You assumed that he was a "guerrilla commander" and I presented three titles that people give to such depending on their political leanings.

He held the position of leadership of ZANU, and I stated as much.
Well, what was his command of "his 'elite' maShona 5 Bde?" Did he "command guerrillas or not?! Did he use "terrorist" methods or not. You indeed said that he's "not (a) terrorist."
I actually said he "was never a guerrilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader." I'll answer your questions individually but to do that we have to delve into one of your pet subjects, semantics, or to be more precise, definitions.
To be a commander one has to issue orders.
To be a leader one has to lead rather than just issuing the orders.
Terrorist is much more difficult to define, the old chestnut of 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.' This is why I gave a choice of nouns earlier in the thread, viz, 'guerrilla/terrorist/freedom fighter.'
Most people use the word 'terrorist' to mean someone who tries to terrify people or governments into giving in to his demands by the use (or threat) of violence. I imagine you are using it to mean anyone that uses fear to achieve his aims, perhaps either despot or tyrant might be a better name.

Well, what was his command of "his 'elite' maShona 5 Bde?" 5 Bde, while ostensibly an army unit, was never a part of the ZDF comd structure, it was in effect Mugabe's personal Bde to be used, in his own words, to "deal with dissidents and any other trouble in the country"

Did he "command guerrillas or not?! When he inherited ZANLA he became the figurehead, he had little to do with them as he was too involved in the international negotiations. Actual command of ZANLA fell to his subordinates.

Did he use "terrorist" methods or not. If you mean did his 5 Bde use fear and violence to subdue the Matebele and anyone who spoke out against his regime then yes, if you mean did he lead ZANLA into ops, then no.

Cuts
10-22-2007, 06:07 PM
Mate, your fumbling all over your semantic definitions here, and I find it a tad insulting. But whatever, you'll you continue to act as I've offended you then throw out these easily dismissible red herrings.
Argumentum ad hominem really doesn't do your position a lot of good, but then a teacher would know that of course.
As an expert in English you'll know that precise definitions enhance comprehension and cannot therefore be considered red herrings within the context of written discussion.


Whatever. I'm sure this must have a meaning in relation to this discussion and the adult world. I'll investigate.



But you can't just attempt to dismiss him as an oafish corrupt politician and then indite him as a vicious brute in command of paramilitary and terror organs. It's a silly contradiction. I don't believe I did dismiss him as an oafish corrupt politician, although I am certain that he is corrupt. He is not stupid, he is very wily and operates in a distorted environment of his own making.


How could he have committed policies such as "conducting COIN" operations against the forces of his rivals if he wasn't a "guerrilla commander?"
You're not conversant with military operations are you ?
COIN is conducted by loyalist troops at the command of politicians and normally within the borders of the state, hence the name.


Then was he an army commander? The most senior general is Chief of the ZDF and it's commander, but as Mugabe is head of state he is the CIC.
So he is an army commander in the same way as Queen Elizabeth II is of the British Army. Although I don't imagine he has as much respect from his troops.


He was an army commander then since the 5th BDE is an army formation. It was an army unit in name only, there was no integration whatsoever with the rest of the ZDF.



After Five Bde was formed they were answerable only to the Prime Minister, Mugabe.
As a British cabinet minister said a couple of years ago, "They do things differently in Africa" - as if that excuses ethnic cleansing.
So he's still not a "terrorist" then?Again we're back to definitions, see the post above.



He became the ZANLA leader by default after the loss of Tongogara, but by that time he had little to do as the war was drawing to a close and he had bigger fish to fry in international politics. Actual comd of ZANLA fell to subordinates.
Again, you're just oversimplifying things on a mission to completely discredit Uncle Bob from both sides of the argument. He is a terrorist and was a leader of guerrillas. Despite never having lived there or even set foot on the continent you seem to have so much more knowledge on this subject than I, perhaps I should sign up for a class.


Unfortunately the freedom fighter thing was a casualty of actions. Not understood.

Why don't you leave the politicised discrediting to him, he's much better at it than you are, mate.
Ad hominem again :roll:




For example, a few years ago they accused the police in Denmark of all places of torture.
It transpired that they had cuffed violent criminals in a manner known as 'hog-tying,' where the arrested man has his legs held by his handcuffs.
This is not torture or even a stress position, although it does prevent the individual from fleeing justice.

Um, that looks quite painful actually...What it specifically has to do with argument I know not. But being hog tied can be quite painful. I've been!
You've been hogtied ? Were you on RtoI or R&R ? :)
On our cses we don't use gimp suits or ball gag.

However there is a great deal of trg one undergoes to be able to carry out C&R, it's just not something at which one can guess.


If someone is left long enough in that position, they would certain feel great pain. Only if those applying the restraint are untrained.
On RtoI the DS are very aware of the physiological aspects of each of the restraint methods at their disposal, it doesn't do to ruin your raw material, it can make for a lousy CR.
It is incidental anyway as the criminals concerned were restrained in that manner for a comparatively short time and were under observation by qualified C&R instrs.


That's like saying throwing someone out in the cold isn't really torture. Stand naked in the cold enough, and you'll disagree... While I don't know the ins and outs of teacher trg in the United States, I'll hazard a guess that POWEXs are not on the curriculum whereas they are on ours, and standing naked but for a hood in the snow or being hogtied is par for the cse.

Nickdfresh
10-22-2007, 07:29 PM
Calm down. I had noticed it a couple of times and was unsure as to why you mentioned Afrikaaners in preference to the other white groups in South Africa.
My bold.

My bold.
True, and refreshing to see it noted.

I've never said otherwise...



I don't believe I inferred anything that wasn't there when I asked if you had any examples that might give you cause to believe I had a "problem" with Americans, after, in post 112 of this thread, I had read:

My point was that your "problem with Afrikaners" statement was a bit silly and was inferred by heavy leaps in logic which you really cannot support. Much like your "Rhodesia was betrayed by the UK" statement earlier...



Yes, there are very many ANC members who really do want the country to move forward as one, most notably Tutu who seems truly to be a man of peace now, but unfortunately there are also a large number that just want to feather their own personal nest.
This shouldn't necessarily be seen as corruption, as in the tradition of many Southern African peoples one looks after one's family, village and tribe, in that order.

Sounds more like the universal tradition of politicians pretty much everywhere...


I can understand the Israelis having a high percentage of citizens that own or carry firearms, but Switzerland hardly faces a similar level of terrorism and/or violent crime as does Israel or ZA.

Uh, Switzerland has a tradition of the entire male population serving in the Army Reserves. They're a neutral country surrounded by nations that spent the better part of the last 70 years at war, or on the brink of it. Does this really have to be explained?


I can understand you wishing to own firearms if you lived in South Africa and it is indeed possible, but anyone applying for a licence these days had better be prepared for a lot of bureaucracy and a long wait.
However, ownership per capita is considerably less than a number of european countries.

Actually, I've read that while attempting to slow down the process of firearms acquisition, a lot of these laws are suspended pending review, and it is really little more difficult to get a gun that it was a few years ago. In any case, this would benefit the white middle and upper classes, since presumably most have had firearms for as long as they can remember..


Really ? That surprises me considering the availbility of CCW permits, but you live and learn.

Some of the states with C&C are the most violent. We can argue cause and effect. But I've never seen a study that actually indicates that this causes a fall in crime rates. And in a related point, conversely, homes containing firearms are targets theft...

Just like any study on the death penalty shows that it is really no deterrent...


Actually it was the other way round, Rhodesia detached herself from Britain by declaring independence on the eleventh of November 1965, causing Wilson to spit the dummy despite being the cause of it.
The British (Labour) government tried to re-assert it's influence over Rhodesia just after UDI and again following the '74 election.

Yes, they split because the Rhodesian gov't rejected any notion of reform and black majority rule. I mean, imagine, demanding democracy! How ever could a European NATO member nation do such a thing!


Ultimately it was American politicians and 'celebrities' that undermined the efforts of the individual grunt on the ground, a slap in the face to those risking their lives.
Plus ça change...

What a massively grotesque oversimplification...

It was the incompetent and corrupt ROV Saigon gov't, and of some cynical US civilian and military officials, that was the far greater problem than Jane Fonda.


Not in the least, as modern society proves.
Conversely, many Southern African black tribes have an abhorrence of losing any of their traditions, something they perceive to be what makes them the people they are.
This is probably most perceptible in the not unfounded trust and belief in the sangomas* and their muti, even amongst the well-educated.
(*'Witch doctors' for want of a better word.)

Anybody abhors to lose their traditions. Most peoples also abhor being treated like second or third class citizens in their own homelands...

Such notions are just self-serving shit that could be used to justify any inequitable arrangement of power...


None of those I know. Indeed those who have moved to other continents still consider themselves displaced Africans.
There are of course some people that moved there and felt themselves to be ex-pats, but then they had a strong feeling for the land of their birth.


Well I am sorry at the diaspora...

Nickdfresh
10-22-2007, 08:29 PM
Don't shoot the messenger !
The point was that the very people who were supposed to benefit from the 'new' system were disinterested or disappointed.

LOL What was your message? That because Robert Mugabe is a ****, that all blacks are inherently incapable of self-governance?

I guess all of the white ****s that have run nations in the past notwithstanding....

Thanks Rudyard Kipling.


Interesting. From where do you draw these observations ?

On, I don't know, the basic facts of the conflict...



No, I meant legal executions carried out by non-dictatorial states for legislated crimes such as murder and treason, but thank you for your answer.

Now you're qualifying. What about states where the whites had fundamental democratic rights and the blacks didn't? And again, anyone can conduct mass executions and make claims regarding due process and rationale afterword. But then, those executed may have regarded themselves as soldiers and their "crimes" as legitimate acts of resistance and military activity..


The way you differentiate between a terrorist and a white criminal could be taken to infer that there were no whites involved in any of the terrorist attacks and/or there were no black criminals.

That's your literal inference. The meaning was that under national security "states of emergency," political crimes are considered far more serious and are given priority...


Not a dual judicial system, although someone who has just tortured and murdered the men of a kraal in front of their wives and children is definitely going to be treated differently to somebody that has stolen a vehicle. Do you think it should be otherwise ?

I don't think car thieves are often treated like murderers in any case. Suffice to say, the men guilty of murdering and raping are War Criminals... Unfortunately, this leads to the fundamental question of how a nation can rationalize using military and counterinsurgency tactics, then claim the purview of "law and order/security" by trying their adversaries as "criminals" when they're also conducting military ambushes, raids, and targeted assassinations, which would make the civilian and military leadership also murders by that definition.


Could you point out which parts of the following text you consider to be emotional and partisan please ?
Text begins:Uncle Bob was never a guerilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader.

That part right there. Firstly, I never said he was a "Guerrilla fighter," but that he commanded a guerrilla organization. And then your subsequent dismissals of him.

He wasn't a "leader?" Okay, we'll just have to agree to disagree over that one. You may not like the sort of leader he was, but that doesn't mean he wasn't. That's your opinion...


If that position were to hold any water there would be no point in legal definitions.

If laws were only literally interpreted and universally enforced, then we'd have no workable society, since realities change and societies evolve making certain notions obsolete....


I actually said he "was never a guerrilla/terrorist/freedom fighter leader." I'll answer your questions individually but to do that we have to delve into one of your pet subjects, semantics, or to be more precise, definitions.
To be a commander one has to issue orders.
To be a leader one has to lead rather than just issuing the orders.
Terrorist is much more difficult to define, the old chestnut of 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.' This is why I gave a choice of nouns earlier in the thread, viz, 'guerrilla/terrorist/freedom fighter.'

So you have some innate knowledge of the inner workings of ZANLA circa 1977? You really know his specific role in all this?


Most people use the word 'terrorist' to mean someone who tries to terrify people or governments into giving in to his demands by the use (or threat) of violence. I imagine you are using it to mean anyone that uses fear to achieve his aims, perhaps either despot or tyrant might be a better name.

Most nations born of conflict have used terrorism including the US, Ireland, Israel, Indonesia, Algeria, and the list goes on. The Revolutionary Americans used "terrorism" as did their British and Tory adversaries. But George Washington himself was not really a terrorist. I doubt anyone could find clear instances of him ordering terrorist acts within his sphere of command, but the Patriots certainly used some dirty war tactics in the rural hinterlands. But the terror stopped at, or even before, the conclusion of the War...

Some achieve just and democratic societies, and some continue to become state terrorists.


5 Bde, while ostensibly an army unit, was never a part of the ZDF comd structure, it was in effect Mugabe's [i]personal Bde to be used, in his own words, to "deal with dissidents and any other trouble in the country"

Which would make him a "state terrorist" that used extra-judicial killings, torture, etc. to maintain power...


When he inherited ZANLA he became the figurehead, he had little to do with them as he was too involved in the international negotiations. Actual command of ZANLA fell to his subordinates.

Again, you were a part of the inner workings or something?


If you mean did his 5 Bde use fear and violence to subdue the Matebele and anyone who spoke out against his regime then yes, if you mean did he lead ZANLA into ops, then no.

I never said he led ZANLA into ops. But he had input on the devising of strategy and implementation of plans...

mike M.
10-23-2007, 12:33 AM
Some of the states with C&C are the most violent. We can argue cause and effect. But I've never seen a study that actually indicates that this causes a fall in crime rates. And in a related point, conversely, homes containing firearms are targets theft...

Just like any study on the death penalty shows that it is really no deterrent...


It's amazing what one has to believe to believe in gun control..Please tell me it aint so.

Nickdfresh
10-23-2007, 03:45 AM
Argumentum ad hominem really doesn't do your position a lot of good, but then a teacher would know that of course.
As an expert in English you'll know that precise definitions enhance comprehension and cannot therefore be considered red herrings within the context of written discussion.

Linguistics and teaching English are slightly different endeavors.

And I happen to believe that precise definitions are often hard to come by as the very meaning of words can be subjective and ever morphing. But that has little to do with previously teaching English and more to do with reading Derrida..:)


I'm sure this must have a meaning in relation to this discussion and the adult world. I'll investigate.

Perhaps relating to arguing on the internet is more and more like that picture one can Google, especially since I'm not sure where we are going with this. And it seems rather pointless and contentious...


I don't believe I did dismiss him as an oafish corrupt politician, although I am certain that he is corrupt. He is not stupid, he is very wily and operates in a distorted environment of his own making.

Agreed.


You're not conversant with military operations are you ?
COIN is conducted by loyalist troops at the command of politicians and normally within the borders of the state, hence the name.

Perhaps. You've caught me in contradiction. But if he wasn't more than just a politician, what input would he have at CI military strategy? Which is
I think a contradiction of your own...


The most senior general is Chief of the ZDF and it's commander, but as Mugabe is head of state he is the CIC.
So he is an army commander in the same way as Queen Elizabeth II is of the British Army. Although I don't imagine he has as much respect from his troops.

Her majesty is only a figurehead. although she might be quite the expert on armoured warfare, who knows? But Mugabe wields the organs of state power in addition to being a figure head, cult of personality.

And on the second point I agree - it would be great to watch him deposed in a coup. Unfortunately, it seems that would have happened by now if it were going too happen at all.


It was an army unit in name only, there was no integration whatsoever with the rest of the ZDF.

Again we're back to definitions, see the post above.

Which would make it a paramilitary unit then? In the end, does it matter that much?


Despite never having lived there or even set foot on the continent you seem to have so much more knowledge on this subject than I, perhaps I should sign up for a class.

I never claimed to have more "knowledge" than anyone. But I thought you said you were from the UK and had acquaintances from Africa (as have I). In any case, I'd be interested to know if you were somehow involved in the War or if I have somehow misunderstood you.


Not understood.

Ad hominem again :roll:

That's called a difference of opinion. In any case, we're just arguing and are not changing each others minds on this. So I see no point in arguing over what is really not a matter of great importance from either point of view....


You've been hogtied ? Were you on RtoI or R&R ? :)
On our cses we don't use gimp suits or ball gag.

However there is a great deal of trg one undergoes to be able to carry out C&R, it's just not something at which one can guess.

In answer to the first sentence, I have. I'm unfamiliar with the first acronym and the second is dated. In any case, suffice to say it was in training and it was unpleasant although not of a very long duration. But I had the feeling that if left in what amounts too a severe "stress position," it could be quit unpleasant.

I'm not sure how any in the S&M crowd could be "in to" that and no, bondage and sadomasochism is not my thing... :)


Only if those applying the restraint are untrained.
On RtoI the DS are very aware of the physiological aspects of each of the restraint methods at their disposal, it doesn't do to ruin your raw material, it can make for a lousy CR.
It is incidental anyway as the criminals concerned were restrained in that manner for a comparatively short time and were under observation by qualified C&R instrs.

I'm not sure why any one in a law enforcement situation would even use to this technique to be honest, it certainly doesn't look good from a "PR" standpoint. In any case, I have no real knowledge or interest in Danish police practices, but in some cases, people have died under restraint while in police custody not necessarily as the result anything the police have done wrong. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but a middle aged 'disturbed' woman (with political connections) recently died after being arrested at an airport for being (drunk? and) disorderly (she was an alcoholic that missed her flight while on the way too treatment). She somehow strangled herself trying to slip out of her restraints in her holding cell. While obviously she was out of her mind, there is quite a bit if scrutiny on the (Phoenix, Arizona?) police right now as they claimed to have observed her every 15 minutes or so.

In any case, people often die fighting police, or in their custody, for a variety of factors that can cause them to go into cardiac arrest. Without commenting on and Amnesty Int'l report I've never read, this type of thing seems rather unnecessary --whether it's 'torture' is a different matter..


While I don't know the ins and outs of teacher trg in the United States, I'll hazard a guess that POWEXs are not on the curriculum whereas they are on ours, and standing naked but for a hood in the snow or being hogtied is par for the cse.

Well, not everyone who was in the military was a lifer...

In any case, when I was teaching, a few of those methods would have seemed appropriate for some students. :)

Nickdfresh
10-23-2007, 03:47 AM
It's amazing what one has to believe to believe in gun control..Please tell me it aint so.

Firstly, this isn't related to gun control. Secondly, this thread has gone way off topic as it is...

Cuts
10-23-2007, 01:39 PM
Were you on RtoI or R&R ? I'm unfamiliar with the first acronym and the second is dated.

RtoI is Resistance to Interrogation.

R&R could well be dated in the US forces, and possibly also elsewhere - I&I is very commonly used. :D

(I&I = Intercourse and Intoxication)

pdf27
10-23-2007, 05:47 PM
OK guys, calm it down - this thread is perilously close to being locked for a bit while it calms down.

Kato: You're posting an awful lot of racist bull**** dressed up as facts. Start backing up your assertions with verifiable facts (not just your opinion and a handful of unrelated statements) or I'll start taking action as a moderator against you.

Cuts and Nickdfresh: There's the core of an interesting debate going on here and I'd hate to cut it short but there is far more personal abuse going on than I like to see. Calm down a little and keep it civil, OK? This isn't supposed to be a zoo...

Gen. Sandworm
10-23-2007, 08:16 PM
OK guys, calm it down - this thread is perilously close to being locked for a bit while it calms down.

Kato: You're posting an awful lot of racist bull**** dressed up as facts. Start backing up your assertions with verifiable facts (not just your opinion and a handful of unrelated statements) or I'll start taking action as a moderator against you.

Cuts and Nickdfresh: There's the core of an interesting debate going on here and I'd hate to cut it short but there is far more personal abuse going on than I like to see. Calm down a little and keep it civil, OK? This isn't supposed to be a zoo...

Perfect example of an informal warning that I completely agree with. Calm it down guys! Thanks!

Nickdfresh
10-23-2007, 08:40 PM
I think Cuts and I are cool.

I admit to being a bit of a ***** - which is part of my ticky, defensive internet persona born of skittishness and the consequence of suffering abuse at a no holds barred site or rocks greatest frontman, as a mod. :D

pdf27
10-24-2007, 01:37 AM
I think Cuts and I are cool.
The two of you may be fine with it, but it sets an atmosphere within the site we don't want to encourage. As has been said many times, we're fine with this sort of thing by PM where nobody else is affected but if it's in public keep it polite...

Cuts
10-24-2007, 06:19 AM
I think Cuts and I are cool.

Yeah, no probs here either.


I admit to being a bit of a *****
I don't.
:D :D :D