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Panzerknacker
10-05-2007, 06:08 PM
Given the interest in other forum and some unbeliavable figures I had read I was wondering....Did anybody have some reliables information/source/link available with the numbers of german material/personnel losses inflicted by the partisans ?

Kato
10-06-2007, 12:54 AM
Given the interest in other forum and some unbeliavable figures I had read I was wondering....Did anybody have some reliables information/source/link available with the numbers of german material/personnel losses inflicted by the partisans ?


According to Soviet sources, from 90,000 partisans (including underground) by the end of 1941 it grew to 220,000 in 1942, and to more than 550,000 in 1943. However, this figure is frequently considered too overstated [14] Soviet partisans inflicted thousands of casualties on Axis forces and helped significantly to the Red Army in the WWII. In Belarus, the center of the Soviet partisan movement, the communist partisan leaders claimed to have "liquidated," injured and taken prisoner some 500,000 German soldiers,[15] the claim disputed by historians, estimating German losses at between 15,000 and 20,000 (not including those of the Eastern volunteers)

It is an intresting fact that anti-soviet resistance in Belarus that started soon after the retreat of Germans killed about 8 thousand people related to NKVD and Soviet administration.

Panzerknacker
10-06-2007, 08:37 AM
Thanks you very much Kato, If you got more info dont hesitate to put that here. :cool:

Chevan
10-08-2007, 01:42 AM
PZ do not need to ask if you easy could find it even in Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_partisans
Although the Wiki partly lie as always - this article has the part of true about the quantity of the pro-soviet partisants

Jews and partisans
Soviet partisans were not in a position to ensure protection to the Jews in the Holocaust. The fit Jews were usually welcomed by the partisans, however women, children, and the elderly were mostly unwelcome.
Insolent cold war lie.
In the USSR there were NO ANY ethnical division for the jews- the all were the citizents of the USSR.The main task of the partisants was to fight with germans - not to save the children and woman in a forests in the extremal condition of Germans terror.
The partisant detachments were too danger to cover the civils, however the any one who could fight was welcome to the partisants

Chevan
10-08-2007, 01:58 AM
According to Soviet sources, from 90,000 partisans (including underground) by the end of 1941 it grew to 220,000 in 1942, and to more than 550,000 in 1943. However, this figure is frequently considered too overstated [14] Soviet partisans inflicted thousands of casualties on Axis forces and helped significantly to the Red Army in the WWII.
The contibution of the partisans were enourmous endeed.
They send to the ground about 18 000 only the trains with ammunition, soldiers and wearpon.
In the 1943 there were a special great partisan operation ( so called Railway war) befor the Kursk battle that practically paralized the Germans supplies for the several days in some areas.
Acting in accord with Red Amry they prowed they could succesfully fight and helped the war with NAzy.


It is an intresting fact that anti-soviet resistance in Belarus that started soon after the retreat of Germans killed about 8 thousand people related to NKVD and Soviet administration.
Those bandits were soon neitralised bu the own Belorussan authorities ;)
Ha, You just could not admit that obvious fact the Soviet partisans in the Ukraine and Belorussia was the biggest anti-german power. Even the AK partisans destroed more Nazy then the UPA;)
So any pitfull attemps to decrease the role of the Ukrainian pro-soviet partisan who really was the most strong anti-Nazy power in Ukraine is nothing but nationalistic propoganda, Kato.

Cheers.

Panzerknacker
10-08-2007, 07:47 AM
PZ do not need to ask if you easy could find it even in Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_partisans



Hmmm, no, I dont trust wiki , I prefer to hear from the Russian mouth. :rolleyes:


The contibution of the partisans were enourmous endeed.
They send to the ground about 18 000 only the trains with ammunition, soldiers and wearpon.
In the 1943 there were a special great partisan operation ( so called Railway war) befor the Kursk battle that practically paralized the Germans supplies for the several days in some areas.
Acting in accord with Red Amry they prowed they could succesfully fight and helped the war with NAzy


Thanks and easy there.

Kato
10-08-2007, 07:57 AM
Posted by Chevan

Those bandits were soon neitralised bu the own Belorussan authorities

Many of these Belorussian "bandits" were from the local soviet partisans who fought Germans and did not want to put up with the change of the Nazi regime to the old Soviet one.

alephh
10-08-2007, 09:17 AM
Difficult question to answer because:
1) Soviet sources vary so greatly
2) What is kill (die, injure, capture), what is partizan (civilian, ex-military, military, part-time-partizans, etc).

One example how unreliable soviet numbers are:

Key Soviet partizan-figure P. Ponomarenko says partizans killed/injured/captured 1.500.000 germans. Well, considering that Germans lost 6-7 million men in the eastern front during the entire war, that means muuuuch stronger Red Army (with t-34 tanks) was absolutely useless in comparison to weakly armed partizans, who pretty much alone killed the german army :-D

According to the same person partizans (armed often with rifles at best) destroyed 2300 german tanks :-D meaning there wasn't too many german tanks left for Red Army to fight against.

Official Soviet WWII history mentions that in 1944 there were 250.000 partizans active. And 185000 partizans got medal (during or after the war).

Problem is that Germans didn't keep separate lists of losses caused by partizans and regular army.


_

Panzerknacker
10-08-2007, 06:00 PM
Key Soviet partizan-figure P. Ponomarenko says partizans killed/injured/captured 1.500.000 germans. Well, considering that Germans lost 6-7 million men in the eastern front during the entire war, that means muuuuch stronger Red Army (with t-34 tanks) was absolutely useless in comparison to weakly armed partizans, who pretty much alone killed the german army :-D

According to the same person partizans (armed often with rifles at best) destroyed 2300 german tanks :-D meaning there wasn't too many german tanks left for Red Army to fight against.



Well...that figures are too unrealistic for me :rolleyes:

Chevan
10-09-2007, 07:55 AM
Many of these Belorussian "bandits" were from the local soviet partisans who fought Germans and did not want to put up with the change of the Nazi regime to the old Soviet one.
Agreed.
But those bandits were simply bandits - who was JUST insignificant minority of the Belorussian people.
They attacked the soviet Belorussian autrorities- killed not only the NKVD soldiers butl and OWN citizents .
They behaved itself like the real bandits- whatever they think as the justification of the their actions( Soviet/nazy regimes and ets).

Chevan
10-09-2007, 07:59 AM
Difficult question to answer because:
1) Soviet sources vary so greatly
2) What is kill (die, injure, capture), what is partizan (civilian, ex-military, military, part-time-partizans, etc).

One example how unreliable soviet numbers are:

Key Soviet partizan-figure P. Ponomarenko says partizans killed/injured/captured 1.500.000 germans. Well, considering that Germans lost 6-7 million men in the eastern front during the entire war, that means muuuuch stronger Red Army (with t-34 tanks) was absolutely useless in comparison to weakly armed partizans, who pretty much alone killed the german army :-D

According to the same person partizans (armed often with rifles at best) destroyed 2300 german tanks :-D meaning there wasn't too many german tanks left for Red Army to fight against.

Official Soviet WWII history mentions that in 1944 there were 250.000 partizans active. And 185000 partizans got medal (during or after the war).

Problem is that Germans didn't keep separate lists of losses caused by partizans and regular army.


_
Adree.
The common problems is that many sources ( not only soviets) tells about the very different figures. Sometimes it's differ in several times.
However do not need to panic , i/m sure we could trust for the contemporary russian/Ukrain/Belorussian sources. Sure with the analisys;)

Cheers.

Sturmfuhrer
10-26-2007, 04:58 PM
Don`t forget about Kuznetsov ("Zibert " undercover) who eleminated gauliytera of Ukraina Koch. It was the tremendous victory of Sudoplatov`s staff

Panzerknacker
10-27-2007, 05:09 PM
Gauleiter ?

Can you tell us more about this attack ?

Kato
10-28-2007, 04:20 PM
Erich Koch was a Gauleiter of the NSDAP in East Prussia from 1928 until 1945, and Reichskomissar in Ukraine from 1941 until 1944. Koch wasn't assassinated or even attempted upon by Kuznetsov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Koch

The brutality of Erich Koch led to his conflict with Rosenberg over the treatment of Ukrainians under German occupation.
The Soviet Union demanded Koch's extradition after the end of the war, but the British government decided to pass him on to the Polish government instead. Extradited to Poland, he was sentenced to death on March 9, 1959 for war crimes against the Poles, but was never put on trial for crimes committed in Ukraine. His death sentence was never carried out, and many people believed that he traded his life for information about art looted by the Nazis during the war, including parts of the famous Amber Room. There is no proof of this story. He died of natural causes in prison at Barczewo (Wartenburg), near Olsztyn (Allenstein), in the heart of (former) East Prussia, on now Polish territory. Koch appeared in a tv report on Königsberg's history in 1986, interviewed by West German journalists in his Polish prison cell.

Egorka
10-28-2007, 06:16 PM
The Soviet Union demanded Koch's extradition after the end of the war, but the British government decided to pass him on to the Polish government instead. Extradited to Poland, he was sentenced to death on March 9, 1959 for war crimes against the Poles, but was never put on trial for crimes committed in Ukraine. His death sentence was never carried out, and many people believed that he traded his life for information about art looted by the Nazis during the war, including parts of the famous Amber Room. There is no proof of this story. He died of natural causes in prison at Barczewo (Wartenburg), near Olsztyn (Allenstein), in the heart of (former) East Prussia, on now Polish territory. Koch appeared in a tv report on Königsberg's history in 1986, interviewed by West German journalists in his Polish prison cell.

Wait! Wait! A can not beleive this! Did not Stalin control Poland after WW2? He must have been a sissy not being able to get Koch shiped to USSR out of Poland.
And then Koch traded his life for information! That is not strange. The strange is that the bloody communist kept their word! People say they never do.
And even let a journalist from Western Germany to interview him.

All these really contradicts to the commong view about the allmighty Stalin/USSR controlling everything singlehandedly in Eastern Europe and telling all others about how to scrath forehead.
Well guys, make up your mind please. Either Stalin is a butcher or some people's understanding is distorted tiny bit.

[sarcasm off] :roll:

Panzerknacker
10-28-2007, 06:28 PM
Thanks Kato, It seems thet "sturmfuhrer" need an update in his sources.

Kato
10-28-2007, 06:47 PM
Posted by Egorka
Wait! Wait! A can not beleive this! Did not Stalin control Poland after WW2? He must have been a sissy not being able to get Koch shiped to USSR out of Poland.
And then Koch traded his life for information! That is not strange. The strange is that the bloody communist kept their word! People say they never do.
And even let a journalist from Western Germany to interview him.

All these really contradicts to the commong view about the allmighty Stalin/USSR controlling everything singlehandedly in Eastern Europe and telling all others about how to scrath forehead.
Well guys, make up your mind please. Either Stalin is a butcher or some people's understanding is distorted tiny bit.


It is more likely that Stalin did not care much for victims in Ukraine and did not have anything against Erich Koch personally.

Egorka
10-28-2007, 07:03 PM
It is more likely that Stalin did not care much for victims in Ukraine and did not have anything against Erich Koch personally.

You said yourself that USSR demanded Koch... So they must had wanted him anyhow.

Regarding Stalin having things against others personally... Do you know the story about a guy who tried to seduce his daugther during the war? Do you know what Stalin did to him? What do you think Stalin did to that guy?

Kato
10-28-2007, 07:45 PM
You said yourself that USSR demanded Koch... So they must had wanted him anyhow.

USSR requested for his extradition from the British zone but as we see did nothing to put him on trial for crimes committed in Ukraine when he was handed over to Poles.

Egorka
10-29-2007, 03:01 AM
USSR requested for his extradition from the British zone but as we see did nothing to put him on trial for crimes committed in Ukraine when he was handed over to Poles.
Does it mean you do not want to know the story about seduction of Stalin's daughter? ;)

Is anyone else interested to hear it? :)
It can be interesting to assess how personaly evil Stalin was.

Librarian
10-29-2007, 10:05 AM
All right, my dear Mr. Egorka – you have a deal: Tell us, please, what happened with Stalin’s "Little sparrow?" :)

After that we could carry on this thread with another interesting disclosure connected with that highly sensitive story about Stalin, tomato, and Anastas Mikoyan.;)

Panzerknacker
10-29-2007, 06:15 PM
That will be a theme for other topic.

Egorka
10-30-2007, 03:53 AM
That will be a theme for other topic.

You mean that just ones we can not wonder into OFF topic subject? :mrgreen:

Panzerknacker
11-01-2007, 06:27 PM
Wandering off-topic ocasionally is not bad, but changing the subject completely is another thing.