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Chevan
09-18-2007, 01:42 AM
Hello folks
I think this some of our Ukrainian memebers a little biased toward the aspect of the USSR history.
For instance the Kato wrote that the "Russians specially created the holodomor" to kill as much Ukrainians as they could.
So i think this thread shoul make the points clear.
Here is the interesting article about Falsifications of the Holodomore Datas asd photos that tody constantly uses the some of dirty politicans for the race-hate propoganda in its states.


[quote]http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 1%80/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D 1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F
Фальсификация истории украинского голода 1932—1933 годов проводилась в множестве стран: например нацистская Германия, США времён холодной войны и современная Украина[источник?]. Одним из первых популяризаторов голодоморной темы было в 1930-х годах правительство нацистской Германии Так одна из первых публикаций в газете Фёлькишер Беобахтер, эта газета с 1920 г. являлась публикационным органом нацистcкой NSDAP . Однако практически сразу же появились замечания, так 10 февраля 1935 года Нью-Йорк таймс написала: в германской и австрийской прессе развязана голодоморная пропаганда о несчастных жертвах Советского голода. ... некоторые фотографии были сделаны раньше в 1921 году во время голода на Волге. Это излюбленный приём антибольшевицкой пропаганды

Появлялись и фотографии, подписи под которыми гласили, что они были сделаны в период 1932—1933 гг. на территории Украины, в то время, как в действительности местом съемки, как правило, было Поволжье в 1921—1922 гг. Существуют они и в настоящее время. Можно сравнить, например, «Истоки зла. Тайна коммунизма» Москва. 2000. http://orthodoxos.by.ru/antivavilon/istokizla/13.htm и IPV News USA http://gulag.ipvnews.org/articles/ar0040/photo008.php . Первоисточник этой фотографии размещён например в Альбоме иллюстраций «La famine en Russie» изданном в Женеве в 1922 году на французском и русском языке, страница 10.

Более того: их иногда используют и политики. Одним из таких примеров современного мифотворчества может быть участие президента Украины 24 ноября 2006 года в открытии выставки «архивных документов» . На этой выставке украинские пропагандисты выдавали фотографии 20-х годов за фотографии жертв 30-х годов.

Исторические материалы, подобным образом сфальсифицированные, некоторые нечистоплотные деятели кладут в основу идеологии, которая, по их замыслу, может сформировать новую нацию. Так по мнению наблюдателей голодомор исполняет роль основного символа, который должен объединить историческое сознание всех украинцев .
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The falsification of the history of Ukrainian hunger 1932 - 1933 it were carried out in many countries: for example Nazi Germany, THE USA the times of the Cold War and contemporary Ukraina. One of the first popularizers of golodomornoy theme was in 1930- years the government of Nazi Germany so one of the first publications in the newspaper "Felkisher Beobaher", this newspaper since 1920 was the publication organ of the Nazy NSDAP . However, observations practically immediately appeared, so on 10 February, 1935, New-York Times wrote: "in the German and Austrian press untied Holodomore propaganda about the unhappy victims of Soviet hunger... some photographs were made earlier in 1921 during the hunger in the Volga. This is the favorite the reception of Nazy propaganda "

Appeared photographs, signatures under which said, what they were made in period 1932 - 1933 in the territory of the Ukraine, while in actuality a place of survey, as a rule, there were Volga Region in 1921 - 1922 there exist they and at present.
It is possible to compare, for example, "the sources of evil. Secret of communism "Moscow. 2000. http://orthodoxos.by.ru/antivavilon/istokizla/13.htm and IPV News USA http://gulag.ipvnews.org/articles/ar0040/photo008.php.
The ultimate source of this photograph is placed for example in the album of illustrations "La famine en Russie" published in Geneva in 1922 in French and the Russian language, page 10.
And what is more: they sometimes are used and policy.
One of such examples of contemporary myth creation can be the participation of the President of the Ukraine on 24 November, 2006, in the discovery of the exhibition of "archive documents". On this exhibition Ukrainian propagandists issued the photograph of the 20th it was annual for the photographs of the victims of the 30th it was annual.
Historical materials, similarly falsificed , some dirty workers place as the basis of ideology, which, according to their concept, can form new nation. So in the opinion of the observers of golodomor fulfills the role of the basic symbol, which must combine the historical consciousness of all Ukrainians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Victims_of_the_1932-33_famine_in_Ukraine.jpg/250px-Victims_of_the_1932-33_famine_in_Ukraine.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Famine_in_Russia_1921.jpg/250px-Famine_in_Russia_1921.jpg
The alleged "victims of Holodomore in Ukraine 1933" - indeed this photo of the victimes of famine in Volga in 1921.


So gentlemens as you could see the ONE of the lovely mehtod of Nazy propoganda that "proves it was a devil Russian who make the special Holodomer in Ukraine" - indeed served ONLY for the politicals aims and has nothing with truth.
The Holodomore of 1933 were not ONLY in Ukraine but also in the Volga region, Kazahstan , Kavkaz and Kuban ( where i personaly live).
It sadly that the Ukrainian President used the old NAzy propogand material - this had obvious political aim to to join the all Ukraine people agains the Russians.
This is politicaly danger tend are very popular among the Orange coalition that try for join the traditionaly loyal for the Russians the East of Ukraine.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 03:16 AM
One more interesting detail about situation in Ukraine befor the Holodomore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization
Ukrainization (also spelled Ukrainisation or Ukrainianization) is a policy of increasing the usage and facilitating the development of the Ukrainian language and promoting other elements of Ukrainian culture, in various spheres of public life such as education, publishing, government and religion.

The term is used, most prominently, to name the implementation of the Soviet korenization policies of the 1920s, aimed at strengthening Soviet power in the territory of Soviet Ukraine and southern regions of the Russian SFSR. In various forms the Ukrainization policies were also carried in several different periods of the twentieth century history of Ukraine, although with somewhat different goals and in different historical contexts.

Ukrainization is often cited as a response and the means to address the consequences of previous assimilationist policies aimed at suppressing or even eradicating the Ukrainian language and culture from most spheres of public life, most frequently a policy of Russification in the times of the Russian Empire (see also Ems Ukaz) and in the USSR, but also Polonization and Rumanization in some Western Ukrainian regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization#1923-1931:_Early_years_of_Soviet_Ukraine
As Bolshevik rule took hold in Ukraine, the early Soviet government had its own reasons to encourage the national movements of the former Russian Empire. While trying to ascertain and consolidate its power, the Bolshevik government was by far more concerned about political oppositions connected to the pre-revolutionary order than about the national movements inside the former empire. Besides, the reversal of the assimilationist policies of the Russian Empire was to help to improve the image of the Soviet government and boost its popularity among the common people.

Until the early-1930s, Ukrainian culture enjoyed a widespread revival due to Bolshevik concessions known as the policy of Korenization ("indigenization"). In these years an impressive Ukrainization program was implemented throughout the republic. In such conditions, the Ukrainian national idea initially continued to develop and even spread to a large territory with traditionally mixed population in the east and south that became part of the Ukrainian Soviet republic.

The All-Ukrainian Sovnarkom's decree "On implementation of the Ukrainization of the educational and cultural institutions" (July 27, 1923) is considered to be the onset of the Ukrainization program.
The (August 1) decree that followed shortly "On implementation of the equal rights of the languages and facilitation of the Ukrainian language" mandated the implementation of Ukrainian language to all levels of state institutions. Initially, the program was met with resistance by some Ukrainian Communists, largely due to the fact that non-Ukrainians prevailed numerically in the party at the time. The resistance was finally overcome in 1925 through changes in the party leadership under the pressure of Ukrainian representatives in the party. In April 1925 the party Central Committee adopted the resolution on Ukrainization proclaiming its aim as "solidifying the union of the peasantry with the working class" and boosting the overall support of the Soviet system among Ukrainians. A joint resolution aimed at "complete Ukrainization of the Soviet apparatus" as well as the party and trade unions was adopted on April 30, 1925. The Ukrainian Commissariat of Education (Narkomis) was charged with overseeing the implementation of the Ukrainization policies. The two figures, therefore, most identified with the policy are Oleksander Shumskyi, the Commissar for Education between 1923 and 1927, and Mykola Skrypnyk, who replaced Shumskyi in 1927.

The rapidly developed Ukrainian-language based education system dramatically raised the literacy of the Ukrainophone rural population. By 1929 over 97% of high school students in the republic were obtaining their education in Ukrainian[2] and illiteracy dropped from 47% (1926) to 8% in 1934.[3]

Simultaneously, the newly-literate ethnic Ukrainians migrated to the cities, which became rapidly largely Ukrainianized — in both population and education. Between 1923 and 1933 the Ukrainian proportion of the population of Kharkiv, at the time the capital of Soviet Ukraine, increased from 38% to 50%. Similar increases occurred in other cities, from 27.1% to 42.1% in Kiev, from 16% to 48% in Dnipropetrovsk, from 16% to 48% in Odessa, and from 7% to 31% in Luhansk.[3]

Similarly expansive was an increase in Ukrainian language publishing and the overall flourishing of Ukrainian cultural life. As of 1931 out of 88 theatres in Ukraine, 66 were Ukrainian, 12 were Jewish (Yiddish) and 9 were Russian. The number of Ukrainian newspapers, which almost did not exist in 1922, had reached 373 out of 426, while only 3 all-republican large newspapers remained Russian. Of 118 magazines, 89 were Ukrainian. Ukrainization of book-publishing reached 83%.[3]

Most importantly, Ukrainization was thoroughly implemented through the government apparatus, Communist Party of Ukraine membership and, gradually, the party leadership as well, as the recruitment of indigenous cadre was implemented as part of the korenization policies. At the same time, the usage of Ukrainian was continuously encouraged in the workplace and in government affairs. While initially, the party and government apparatus was mostly Russian-speaking, by the end of the 1920s ethnic Ukrainians composed over one half of the membership in the Ukrainian communist party, the number strengthened by accession of Borotbists, a formerly indigenously Ukrainian "independentist" and non-Bolshevik communist party.
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The attempted Ukrainization of the armed forces, Red Army formations serving in Ukraine and abroad, was less successful although moderate progress was attained. The Schools of Red Commanders (Shkola Chervonyh Starshyn) was organized in Kharkiv to promote the careers of the Ukrainian national cadre in the army (see picture). The Ukrainian newspaper of the Ukrainian Military District "Chervona Armiya" was published until mid-1930s.[4] The efforts were made to introduce and expand Ukrainian terminology and communication in the Ukrainian Red Army units.[1] The policies even reached the army units in which Ukrainians served in other Soviet regions. For instance the Soviet Pacific Fleet included a Ukrainian department overseen by Semyon Rudniev.[5]

At the same time, despite the ongoing Soviet-wide anti-religious campaign, the Ukrainian national Orthodox Church was created, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (See History of Christianity in Ukraine). The Bolshevik government initially saw the national churches as a tool in their goal to suppress the Russian Orthodox Church, always viewed with great suspicion by the regime for its being the cornerstone of the defunct Russian Empire and the initially strong opposition it took towards the regime change. Therefore, the government tolerated the new Ukrainian national church for some time and the UAOC gained a wide following among the Ukrainian peasantry.

Ukrainization even reached those regions of southern Russian SFSR, particularly the areas by the Don and Kuban rivers, where mixed population showed strong Ukrainian influences in the local dialect. Ukrainian language teachers, just graduated from expanded institutions of higher education in Soviet Ukraine, were dispatched to these regions to staff newly opened Ukrainian schools or to teach Ukrainian as a second language in Russian schools. A string of local Ukrainian-language publications was started and departments of Ukrainian studies were opened in colleges. Overall, these policies were implemented in thirty-five administrative districts in southern Russia.
So as could you see guys the fu...g Ukrain Communists not ONLY suppressed the Russians and non-ukrainians in Ukrain in 1920-30 but also and try to spread its influence toward the Southern Russia.
At that same time when they suppressed the Russian Ortodoxy chirch in Ukraine ( like the Bolshevics did in all the USSR) the Ukrains COMMI created the Ukrain NAtional Church - is this not funny?
They TOTALLY imposed the Ukraine languages in the areas with the majoirity of Rusian speaking -population.
The one of the resault of the Ukrainisation was the removing the non-ukrainians from the Ukrainian Communist Gov. ALREADY In the 1925 the MOST OF THE UKRAINIAN COMMUNIST gov were the Ethnical Ukrainians who hotly SUPPORTED the policy of Ukrainisation.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 03:21 AM
The father - the more interesting
http://www.inosmi.ru/text/translation/229577.html
When the collectivisation had bagan in all the USSR the Ukraine Local Gov signed the special order


6 декабря 1932 г. ярый украинизатор, председатель СНК УССР Чубарь подписал постановление "О борьбе с саботажем в хлебозаготовках". С этого момента начинаются черные страницы истории Украины - страшный голод 30-х годов.
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On 6 December, 1932, ardent ukrainizator, the chairman OF SNK OF UKRSSR - UKRAINIAN SSR Chubar signed decision "fight with the sabotage". The black pages of the history of the Ukraine begin from this point on, - the terrible hunger of the 1933
The resault of this order was that was the forbid to send and by the products from the other regions of USSR. For instance when in Crimea the situation after collectivisation was more soft and the peoples still have the rest of the foods/ The Ukrains Local poweres that TOO CAREFULLY realised the comraide Stalin plans of gathering forbig the import the food form the Crimes- thus the peoples in Ukraine occused in much worst conditions then in the other districts of USSR.
Tody the contemporary politica descendant in Ukrain just want to whitewash own Communist Ukrain ancestors and blames the Russians ( who also suffer a lot from Stalin terror) in the "special Holodomor in Ukraine".
This is not surprising for Nationalists- whom first aim to creat the bariers between the peoples, for its own political ambitions.
The pitfull attempts "to clear" the OWN UKRAINIANS communist murders ( who ruled the CK Comparty of Ukrain and responsible for the unhuman policy and terrible effect of Collectivisation of Ukraine)) is the JUST political demagogy and race-hate.

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:21 AM
the discussion actually started at http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5339&page=2


Posted by Chevan
So you should thank them for the terror that all those colloborations : more exactly all the Head of Local Ukrainin gov , the tens thousands of the memebers of punismentand NKVD, and the MILLIONS memebers of the Ukrain ComParty- thay were all so glad and claps for the comrade Stalin.

Yes the Ukraines ruled ONLY by the Ukrainians , however the generale Line was COMMON for all the USSR and was determined by the Polutburo and ComParty in Head of Comride Stalin ( who was also non-russian marsian).The LOCAL authorities ( that were headed by the Local NATIONAL leaders) executed the General policy in the Republic. They had all power to rules according general line.
The absolutly all Republic was roughly in equal conditions- so you better do not spread the fary tell about the Russians who make the famine for the Ukraine;)


So-called Ukrainian ComParty was just the creature of the Russian communist party. It was fully subject to the Communist Party of Russia. Its role was restricted to conducting some party meetings after the ones of Russian communists and copied all the decisions taken at Russian communist meetings. Ukrainian ComParty was formed in Russia by Russian communists in 1918 to undermine the legitimacy of Ukrainian authorities in Kyiv. Later they were brought to Kharkiv after the city was captured by Bolsheviks. The absolute majority of its members were just statists like the members of the young communist league and pioneers. Are you going to deny that if a person hadn't been a pioneer or a member of young communist league, he/she would have been prevented from normal studyings at school and never admitted to a university or institute. An adult person who ignored the communist social activities would most likely get imprisoned. So that was the reason why such communist party structures embraced nearly each Ukrainian in the Soviet Union. Everyone wants to live.

Among the victims of holodomor there were millions of such loyal to the Soviets Ukrainians who supported communism. And even this fact proves that it was a genocide not a political purge.

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:27 AM
Posted by Chevan The thing that joined the all Soviet republic together was the ComParty and Polutburoo where were the representatives OF ALL THE NATIONAL Republic of the USSR. And the Ukraines played the active part in the Comparty.The absolutelly all republic were presented in the Soviet Power.
Besides in Every republic the National Communists ethnic ruling elite.

Yeah Ukrainians like Kosior, Manuilskij, Kaganovich, Kosior, and Postyshev and Khrushchev. All the senior echalon of party bosses of Ukraine were appointed by Moscow.

To prevent Chevan from claiming that Khrushchev was a Ukrainian.

Nikita Khrushchev was born in the village of Kalinovka, Dmitriyev Uyezd, Kursk Guberniya, Russian Empire, now occupied by the present-day Kursk Oblast in Russia. His father was the peasant Sergei Nikanorovich Khrushchev (d. 1938 of tuberculosis); his mother was Aksinia Ivanovna Khrushcheva. He had a sister two years his junior, Irina. In 1908, his family moved to Yuzovka (now Donetsk, Ukraine). Later, since he spent much time working in Ukraine, Khrushchev gave off the impression of being Ukrainian. He supported this image by wearing Ukrainian national shirts. However, he has personally stated that "I Myself Am Russian".

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:28 AM
So they were the heros , right. They saved the peoples
In cotrast to the Ukrain communist .
I think all rater simple - the Russian local authorities did not make the such "mistakes" like the Ukraine did.
They ruled more professional and they little cared about the peoples.


Yes , quite correct. Russian communists cared about Russian nationals and genocided only civilian Non-Russians: Ukrainians, Mouslems, Balts etc.

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:31 AM
My Kuban with majiority of Ukrains?????
Man are you sick , when were the Ukrainians the majority in Kuban?
You are definitally have the problems megalomania.
Partly the Kuban cossacs had the Ukrainian roots.However There vere never the Majiority of them in Kuban.Especially in the 1920-1930yy

Really? How did it happen that before communist came to power in Kuban, it was the territoty of Kuban cossacks array and its population was made up of almost 100 % of these descendants of Ukrainian cossacks with official restrictions to live in this land for all other nationals. And 1920-1930yy ceased to be a majority? It is just another example of an successfully accommplished genocide by Russians.

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:31 AM
This is a just part of true.
Indeed as we could see the about the 5% of alleged Ukrainians who died in Ukraine in 1931-33 were NOT -Ukrainians. Coz you perfectly know that the Local Ukrain communists hold the policy of Ukrainisation - thus many of the victims were simply written as the Ukrains.

That so-called Ukrainisation took place in the early and mid 1920s. It consisted in abolishing the numerous ban on the Ukrainian language, culture, and literature. Communists simply leagalised what always existed but was illegal in Tsar Russia. There was any other deliberate policy. By the early 1930s this development had become increasingly alarming to the Soviet regime, which saw a danger in the loyalties of increasingly nationally conscious Ukrainians being aligned with the Ukrainian nation rather than with the Communist ideology or the Soviet state.[10] In the early 1930s, Ukrainization policies were abruptly reversed and replaced with a policy of effective Russification thereby causing significant social, cultural, and political conflict in the Ukrainian populated territories.

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:32 AM
The famine of 1932-1933 coincided with the assault on Ukrainian national culture. The events of 1932-1933 in Ukraine were seen by the Soviet Communist leaders as an instrument against possible Ukrainian self-determination. At the 12th Congress of the Communist Party of Ukraine, Moscow-appointed leader Postyshev declared that "1933 was the year of the defeat of Ukrainian nationalist counter-revolution."[48] This "defeat" encompassed not just the physical extermination of a significant portion of the Ukrainian peasantry, but also the virtual elimination of the Ukrainian clergy and the mass imprisonment or execution of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers and artists.
By the end of the 1930s, approximately four-fifths of the Ukrainian cultural elite had been "eliminated".[49] Some, like Ukrainian writer Mykola Khvylovy, committed suicide. One of the leading Ukrainian Bolsheviks, Mykola Skrypnyk, who was in charge of the decade-long Ukrainization program that had been decisively brought to an end, shot himself in the summer of 1933 at the height of the terrifying purge of the CP(b)U. The Communist Party of Ukraine, under the guidance of state officials like Kaganovich, Kosior, and Postyshev, boasted in early 1934 of the elimination of "counter-revolutionaries, nationalists, spies and class enemies". Whole academic organizations, such as the Bahaliy Institute of History and Culture, were shut down following the arrests.

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:36 AM
Posted by Chevan:

Well tell this for the others Kato, may they will belive in this bulshit.
The Most of VICTIMS OF BOLSHEVICS terror were the Russians, besides the RUSSIANS were the basis of prisoner of GULAG - yo know it. Russians were the first who meet the Big Red terror in 1918-1920.

The strongholds of Bolsheviks during the civil war 1918-1921 was the central regions of modern Russia, the original territory of Russian ethnicity. Since then all the soviet apparatus of pwoer was built on the Russian ethnicity and language Bolsheviks' terror was aimed against the adepts of the Tzar Russia that is the upper crust of the old society and some officers who resisted Bolsheviks ( it does not mean that these people were ethnical Russians as these people were very much cosmopolitic and often spoke foreign languages better than Russian ) They made up 1-2 per cent of Russian population and wanted to keep their previlages, status, property and money. One should remember that Don and Kuban cossacks claimed seperate ethnicity different from Russian one.
All the civil war was reduced to attempts of the upper crust of the old society and the officers of the Tzar army who formed so called white forces ( with huge military support on behalf Western states) to break through to the central original Russian regions (from Caucases, Baltik, Ukraine, Siberia) and crack down the mutiny. Bolsheviks would have certainly failed to win unless 90% of ethnical Russians had eagerly supported them.

You are forgetting that the GULAG was both for so-called political prisoners and felons.
The biggest proportion of political prisoners in Gulag were Ukrainians. Check with with Solzhenizin.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 04:38 AM
Really? How did it happen that before communist came to power Kuban, it was the territoty of Kuban cossacks array and its population was made up of almost 100 % of these descendants of Ukrainian cossacks with official restrictions to live in this land for all other nationals. And 1920-1930yy ceased to be a majority? It is just another example accommplished genocide by Russians.
Wow , you say that the Kuban cossacs was a descendants of the Ukrainian cossacs ( that two centuries ago come to the Kavkaz). They had an ancient Ukrainian roots ( like and all russian had a ancient Kiev Rus ancestors) however they WERE NOT UKRAINIAN. They Were russian and they servad for Tsar to save the bother in Kavkaz.
The Ukrainian root is not the same the to be Ukrainians , i hope yo understand.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 04:48 AM
The strongholds of Bolsheviks during the civil war 1918-1921 was the central regions of modern Russia, the original territory of Russian ethnicity. Bolsheviks' terror was aimed against the adepts of the Tzar Russia that is the upper crust of the old society and some officers who resisted Bolsheviks ( it does not mean that these people were ethnical Russians as these people were very much cosmopolitic and often spoke foreign languages better than Russian ) They made up 1-2 per cent of Russian population and wanted to keep their previlages, status, property and money. One should remember that Don and Kuban cossacks claimed seperate ethnicity different from Russian one.
All the civil war was reduced to attempts of the upper crust of the old society and the officers of the Tzar army who formed so called white forces ( with huge military support on behalf Western states) to break through to the central original Russian regions (from Caucases, Baltik, Ukraine, Siberia) and crack down the mutiny. Bolsheviks would have certainly failed to win unless 90% of ethnical Russians had eagerly supported them.

You are forgetting that the GULAG was both for so-called political prisoners and felons.
The biggest proportion of political prisoners in Gulag were Ukrainians. Check with with Solzhenizin.
Well the bad situation Kato. It seems it exactly megalomania;)
Ukrains were the majoirity in GULAG?
That't a new discowery of the Ukrainian historians?
Well well i heared in the Ukraine the scientists discowered thet the eople in the Europe comes from the ancient Ukrainians :)
Go on comrides. While the Orange drugs is acting.....
And do not lie that that the "strongholds of Bolsheviks during the civil war 1918-1921 was the central regions of modern Russia" - YOU PERFECTLY know that the strongholds of Bolshevics WERE the "SOVIETS of WOKERS and Soldier deputats" in the Big cities Like Petersburd, Moscow and Kiev.
The russian peasants form Central Part were in VICTIMS- the bolshevics hated them as the MAIN victim of OLD tsar's time.
So do not spread a bulshit - the Russain peasants SUFFERED enought hard form the Boslshevics ( including the Ukrainian Bastards ) in the "CENTRAL part of Russia"

Kato
09-18-2007, 04:53 AM
Wow , you say that the Kuban cossacs was a descendants of the Ukrainian cossacs ( that two centuries ago come to the Kavkaz). They had an ancient Ukrainian roots ( like and all russian had a ancient Kiev Rus ancestors) however they WERE NOT UKRAINIAN. They Were russian and they servad for Tsar to save the bother in Kavkaz.
The Ukrainian root is not the same the to be Ukrainians , i hope yo understand.

Ethnically they were Ukrainians. The traditions and ways of life at that time
made the rate of intermarriages extremely low

Kato
09-18-2007, 05:06 AM
Chevan
Well the bad situation Kato. It seems it exactly megalomania;)
Ukrains were the majoirity in GULAG?
That't a new discowery of the Ukrainian historians?
Well well i heared in the Ukraine the scientists discowered thet the eople in the Europe comes from the ancient Ukrainians :)

It is objective data and the Russian historians are the only ones in the world who refuses to accept it.


Go on comrides. While the Orange drugs is acting.....

I am glad that you watch your Russian TV the most objective and true TV in the world as well as all the rest of Russian medias.
Personally I prefer the oranges injected with American CIA and Jewish Massad drugs



And do not lie that that the "strongholds of Bolsheviks during the civil war 1918-1921 was the central regions of modern Russia" - YOU PERFECTLY know that the strongholds of Bolshevics WERE the "SOVIETS of WOKERS and Soldier deputats" in the Big cities Like Petersburd, Moscow and Kiev.
The russian peasants form Central Part were in VICTIMS- the bolshevics hated them as the MAIN victim of OLD tsar's time.
So do not spread a bulshit - the Russain peasants SUFFERED enought hard form the Boslshevics ( including the Ukrainian Bastards ) in the "CENTRAL part of Russia"

The attempt of Bolsheviks mutiny in Kyiv in 1918 that failed to receive support from Russian ones was cracked down by Ukrainian police in a few hours. At that time the Ukrainian government even refused to create some Army following their idiotic democtratic and liberal ideas.

The russian peasants form Central Part of Russia was the backbone of the Red Army at that time.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 05:09 AM
The famine of 1932-1933 coincided with the assault on Ukrainian national culture. The events of 1932-1933 in Ukraine were seen by the Soviet Communist leaders as an instrument against possible Ukrainian self-determination. At the 12th Congress of the Communist Party of Ukraine, Moscow-appointed leader Postyshev declared that "1933 was the year of the defeat of Ukrainian nationalist counter-revolution."[48] This "defeat" encompassed not just the physical extermination of a significant portion of the Ukrainian peasantry, but also the virtual elimination of the Ukrainian clergy and the mass imprisonment or execution of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers and artists.By the end of the 1930s, approximately four-fifths of the Ukrainian cultural elite had been "eliminated".[49]
That's true, but not full.
The Ukrainian-origin communists clap for the New Policy.
Do not forget that the Russians cultural elite WAS eliminated fully much early in the beginning of 1920.
And also the own Ukrainian Nattionaliss- Communists try hard to eliminate the own peoples

One of the leading Ukrainian Bolsheviks, Mykola Skrypnyk, who was in charge of the decade-long Ukrainization program that had been decisively brought to an end, shot himself in the summer of 1933 at the height of the terrifying purge of the CP(b)U.
That's right ,the Ukrainian bolshevic killer chosed the siucide instead to be the shoot by order;)

The Communist Party of Ukraine, under the guidance of state officials like Kaganovich, Kosior, and Postyshev, boasted in early 1934 of the elimination of "counter-revolutionaries, nationalists, spies and class enemies". Whole academic organizations, such as the Bahaliy Institute of History and Culture, were shut down following the arrests.[/QUOTE]
Absolut true.
The New Moscow Commissin in head of Koganovich has arrived in Kiev RIGHT AFTER THE HOLODOMORE in 1933.

What is strange here? The arrived to judge the reason of the mass famine and shot the guilt Ukrain bastard who sanctioned the Policy that lead to the so great victims.
The OWN Ukrainian local authorities who signed the unhuman orderd toward the OWN population in 1932 - they have to be shot according the Bolshevics rules;)

Egorka
09-18-2007, 05:54 AM
An adult person who ignored the communist social activities would most likely get imprisoned.
This is hardly was the way you describe it. It was more or less compalsury for Communist party members to partisipate in the those activities. But not for the rest. In 1940 there were app 4 million party members in USSR. The total population was somewhere about 192 million. That means there were roughly 50 million adult males.
The party membership was not so easy to get (in the 1930) as there were fair deal of prerequisities. And, yes, it gave sertain previligies, but also whould give you a fair bit of responsibility in terms of more work (in the 1930s).


So that was the reason why such communist party structures embraced nearly each Ukrainian in the Soviet Union. Everyone wants to live.
True. Very much so.
But if you want to present USSR's communist party as some kind of ethnic Russian institution that protected ethnic Russian interests you distort the reality of 1920s - 1930s.

Regards
Igor

Chevan
09-18-2007, 06:17 AM
It is objective data and the Russian historians are the only ones in the world who refuses to accept
:) I have no words


I am glad that you watch your Russian TV the most objective and true TV in the world as well as all the rest of Russian medias.

Am i watch the Russian TV?Are you kidding....
Why is it needed? To watch the Putin?I do not like his.
Usially i wathc only the Viva Polska and Myz TV Ru music channels.


Personally I prefer the oranges injected with American CIA and Jewish Massad drugs

Yes ...I suspected you a drugg addict;)
Cos the norman healthy man could not to write a so;)


The russian peasants form Central Part of Russia was the backbone of the Red Army at that time.
Its' wrong again. The Basis of the Red Guard was the former soldiers-traitors of Tsar army and former workers who now was the unemployed coz the plans does not works.
The Later in the 1922-25 when the Red Guard was reformed in the Red Army of worker's and peasants' army was took a lot of former peasants.
However in this timme the Ukrain peasants has right to join in Red Army too.

Kato
09-18-2007, 06:28 AM
That's true, but not full.
The Ukrainian-origin communists clap for the New Policy.
Do not forget that the Russians cultural elite WAS eliminated fully much early in the beginning of 1920.
And also the own Ukrainian Nattionaliss- Communists try hard to eliminate the own peoples
That's right ,the Ukrainian bolshevic killer chosed the siucide instead to be the shoot by order;)

That man Mykola Skrypnyk was in chrage of Ukranisation and had nothing to do with killings So you came to the conclusion the Ukranisation was the killing of Ukrainians?



What is strange here? The arrived to judge the reason of the mass famine and shot the guilt Ukrain bastard who sanctioned the Policy that lead to the so great victims.
The OWN Ukrainian local authorities who signed the unhuman orderd toward the OWN population in 1932 - they have to be shot according the Bolshevics rules;)

Yeah again blatant lies.
Only a few men related to the organization of holodomor were arrested only in 1937, however they were charged with things completely unrelated to holodomor. It was done in accordance to the Sioviet tradition of that time to change people in higher echalons to avoid the formation of some steady groups of senior Bolsheviks that can oppose Stalin.

After the death of Stalin all they were acquitted from all the charges and declared to be the victims of Stalin.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 06:42 AM
That man Mykola Skrypnyk was in chrage of Ukranisation and had nothing to do with killings So you came to the conclusion the Ukranisation was the killing of Ukrainians?

Oh really NOBODY from Ukrainians had nothing to do with the Ukrainian Bolshevic terror in Ukraine?
And who treated and shoted the peoples- ONLY russians Bolshevics?



Yeah again blatant lies.
Some of the organizers of holodomor were arrested only in 1937, however they were charged with things completely unrelated to holodomor. It was done in accordance to the Sioviet tradition of that time to change people in higher echalons to avoid the formation of some steady groups of senior Bolsheviks that can oppose Stalin.

But they WERE judged and executed also and for Holodomor, weren't they?
At least the Moscow tryed to judge the Local Ukrainians communists who was responsible for the SO enourmous victims of famine ( in other regions there were no a such great victims)
The comission arrived to the Ukrain in the 1933 in head with the Narkov of the Agriculture Koganovich ( when the famine has alredy began).

Kato
09-18-2007, 06:45 AM
Yes ...I suspected you a drugg addict
Cos the norman healthy man could not to write a so. Usially i wathc only the Viva Polska and Myz TV Ru music channels.

Quote:



You just started mentioning some orange drugs in one of your previous posts. Quit watching them.

Egorka
09-18-2007, 06:56 AM
Guys!

Here is some reading for both of you. ;) All materials in Russian.

1. Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/266972.html)
2. Из архивов СБУ. J статье некоего Е.Ляховича о "украинском вопросе", написанная в Лондоне в 1934 году. (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/283237.html)
3. Довольно интересно - рук.состав НКВД 1934-40 (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/284898.html)
4. Руководство НКВД в 1935 году (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/283650.html)
5. НАЦИОНАЛЬНЫЙ СОСТАВ ЦЕНТРАЛЬНОГО АППАРАТА ОГПУ В 1920-е ГОДЫ (http://www.fsb.ru/history/read/1999/kapchinsky.html)

Kato
09-18-2007, 07:08 AM
But they WERE judged and executed also and for Holodomor, weren't they?
At least the Moscow tryed to judge the Local Ukrainians communists who was responsible for the SO enourmous victims of famine ( in other regions there were no a such great victims)
The comission arrived to the Ukrain in the 1933 in head with the Narkov of the Agriculture Koganovich ( when the famine has alredy began).

Nothing of the sort they were mainly charged with some conspiring aimed at killing other senior communist functioneers that were false. Just the old Soviet/Russin tradition to get rid of old butchers and appoint new butchers. Remember how many heads of NKVD were executed and each new one acted as the old one as the ordders issued for them were just the same.

Kato
09-18-2007, 07:47 AM
Thank you, Egorka, I will get familiar with this information.


http://www.ljplus.ru/img/i/_/i_grappa/nkvd3440doli.gif


As one one can see from the gistogram the backbone of NKVD ( 70 % of the staff) was made up of Russians ( green) and jews ( blue) in 1934 just after Holodomor.

Since 1934 there was a steep rise in the proportion of Russian nationals of NKVD up to almost 70 %. in 1939.

Ukrainians (yellow) comprised about 5% of NKVD staff in 1934.
Till 1938 this figure flactuated between 3-6%.

Egorka
09-18-2007, 09:43 AM
Kato,

Remember that this graph is for the whole USSR for the period after 1934. The situation in the Ukraina could be somewhat differen.

Here is about the 1920s from an other source (http://www.fsb.ru/history/read/1999/kapchinsky.html):

"Вскоре в национальном составе ОГПУ происходят более значительные изменения. Среди высшего и среднего руководящего звена резко увеличилось число евреев и, в меньшей степени, украинцев. Произошло это за счет "северокавказской группы" Е.Г. Евдокимова, назначенного в 1929 году начальником Секретно-оперативного управления, и приведшего в центральный аппарат лиц, работавших с ним на Правобережной Украине - местах традиционного проживания евреев. Назначенный в 1931 году заместителем председателя ОГПУ зампред ГПУ Украины В. А. Балицкий также перевел в Москву большую группу руководящих работников, евреев и украинцев по национальности."

Another thing to remember is that sertain number of Ukrainians could quite easily sign up as Russians (according to many todays Ukrainian nationalists it is actualy THEM who re REAL Russians and the Moskaly just stole the Russian identity).
And we know for sure that realy many Jewish, Armenian and other Bolsheviks assumed russian second names.


Regards
Igor

Egorka
09-18-2007, 09:51 AM
As one one can see from the gistogram the backbone of NKVD ( 70 % of the staff) was made up of Russians ( green) and jews ( blue) in 1934 just after Holodomor.

Since 1934 there was a steep rise in the proportion of Russian nationals of NKVD up to almost 70 %. in 1939.

Ukrainians (yellow) comprised about 5% of NKVD staff in 1934.
Till 1938 this figure flactuated between 3-6%.

Wait, wait!

In 1934 the reported Russians constituted about 30%. The Jews - 37%. Ukrainians - 5% (third largest group).

The question though where those Jewish members grew up? ;) I would think that by far most of them grew up in the territory of Ukrain (remember the Jewish census territory). But of course they had very little (if nothing) in common with the interests of native Ukrainians.

But if you want tell me that those 37% of Jewish Bolsheviks care about the Russian native population you whould be lieying, whould not you?


Regards
Igor

Kato
09-18-2007, 11:05 AM
Another thing to remember is that sertain number of Ukrainians could quite easily sign up as Russians.

There were passports in the USSR that contained that specified the nationality of each person and were given when he/she turned 16. You couldn't easily change the records of your natioanality even working in NKVD according to the changes of political climate. It would be a serious crime. The staff of NKVD worked under tight control and in the atmosphere of mutual distrust and competetion so such facts would quickly come to the surface and the guilty would be imprisoned at best.


(according to many todays Ukrainian nationalists it is actualy THEM who re REAL Russians and the Moskaly just stole the Russian identity).


They mean that the only Ukraine and Belarus are the successors of Kyiv Rus.
The tzar of Moscovia Peter I changed the name of Moscovia to Russia (from the word derivative from Rus) just out of his political ambitions. That was a kind of hystoric falsification. The word Moskali derived from the name of the country Moskovia. In the Belorussian and Ukrainian language it was the only word to denote a Russian till the 1920s.

Kato
09-18-2007, 12:33 PM
In 1934 the reported Russians constituted about 30%. The Jews - 37%. Ukrainians - 5% (third largest group).

No actually only the forth one. The third group was Latvian communists ( dark blue in the chart)


But if you want tell me that those 37% of Jewish Bolsheviks care about the Russian native population you whould be lieying, whould not you?


Jewish Bolsheviks cared for themselves and the interests of the Soviet Communist Party that never tried to annihilate Russians as a seperate ethnic group.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 01:52 PM
Jewish Bolsheviks cared for themselves and the interests of the Soviet Communist Party that never tried to annihilate Russians as a seperate ethnic group.
i.e the Jews who cared so much about the Party that hold the ethnical terror against the whole nationalitiy- does it mean that you want to blame the Jews from Comparty in Ethnical henocide, mst Nationalist?

The Comparty NEVER try to annihilate the ANY ethnical group - you clearly know it Kato;)
The Bolshevics "fought" against Class enemy - not against the ethnical /race enemies.
It had no sense coz the Bolshevism/communism was INTERNATIONAL movenment ( to the contrast of the Nazy ideology that was bases on race-superiority).
Bolshevics NEVER try to annihilate the Ethnical group, they ONLY deported some of the Ethnical groups- you know it.
To the contrast with the NAzy and you famouse UPA that was aimed for the Ethnical clearising of the controlled territories- the Bolshevics fought the Class emenies. Another matter is as they did it, and sure they were the cruel.
However this bulshit about Ethnical henocide in Ukraine by the "russians' - leave this for the pitiful Politicans who make the popularity on the danger nationalis hysteria.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 02:21 PM
Guys!

Here is some reading for both of you. ;) All materials in Russian.

1. Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/266972.html)
2. Из архивов СБУ. J статье некоего Е.Ляховича о "украинском вопросе", написанная в Лондоне в 1934 году. (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/283237.html)
3. Довольно интересно - рук.состав НКВД 1934-40 (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/284898.html)
4. Руководство НКВД в 1935 году (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/283650.html)
5. НАЦИОНАЛЬНЫЙ СОСТАВ ЦЕНТРАЛЬНОГО АППАРАТА ОГПУ В 1920-е ГОДЫ (http://www.fsb.ru/history/read/1999/kapchinsky.html)

Thanks Egorka.
BTW do you accidentally have the INFOR about the national Staff of Central Commite of Comunist Party of Ukraine in this period?
It would be quite interesting.
So we have

Национальность. Национальный состав высшего руководства НКВД УССР был таким: евреи — 60 (66,67%), русские — 13 (14,44%), украинцы — 6 (6,67%), латыши — 3 (3,33%), поляки — 2 (2,22%), белорус — 1 (1,11%), нет сведений — 5 (5,56%)".
......................................
In the 1934-35 the National structure of Ukrain department of NKVD was the next:
1.Jews-66%
2.Russians -14%
3. Ukrainians -7%
4. Latvians- 3%

Acording the point of Kato - if the Russians were in the rulling elite of Communist Ukraine- that they certainly organised the Holodomore against Ukrainians.
But as we see from this table the Jews were in 66% among NKVD personal;)
So does the Kato want to say that the Jews WERE guilt in Henocide of Ukrainians?

Egorka
09-18-2007, 04:20 PM
There were passports in the USSR that contained that specified the nationality of each person and were given when he/she turned 16.
Yes, Kato. But it is only true for the period after 1974 when there was issued a new law: постановление ЦК КПСС и Совмина СССР “О мерах по дальнейшему совершенствованию паспортной системы в СССР”. Where it was for the first time stated that "all the Soviet stizens form ther age of 16 are obliged to have a passport". You maybe would be surprised but very-very large share of Soviet people did not have a pasport at all before 1974.
Pasport regim was in force only in the cities. The paisants did have one and actually had problems getting one.

The passports were introdused in USSR on 27 December 1932 and ONLY for the population of the cities, not for peisants. Before that people used for identification all sorts of crap papers like "workers book" (trudovaya knizhka), student ID, metric papers (svidetelstvo o rozhdenii), labour union member ID and even "spravka iz domupravleniya.

Here is a nice overview of passport system in Russia through the centuries (http://www.vgd.ru/ENGLISH/pasport.htm).


You couldn't easily change the records of your natioanality even working in NKVD according to the changes of political climate. It would be a serious crime. The staff of NKVD worked under tight control and in the atmosphere of mutual distrust and competetion so such facts would quickly come to the surface and the guilty would be imprisoned at best.
Right. But it applies ONLY for the period AFTER 27 December 1932. It would not be possible to change the nationality in the existing pasport and papers. But the point is that the pasports were issued based on the previous information. That information could come from any possible sorts of sources back then. Remember that the country suffered a revolution and a civil war. It was a mess. And it is during that mess that this changes not only were possible but happened for sure.

But all this mainly applies to the Jewish bolsheviks. Some of them changed their surname to a more Russian sounding like.

The story with Ukrainians seems different to me. The word UKRAINIAN started to appear only at the begining of the 20th century. And the people settling Ukrain could without problems call them self as Russians (and they did). So they got their metric papers in the Tsar times before 1917 (I my self have one of my Grand-grand-mother). Accordingly many of the people you would call today as Ukrainians were writen as Russians.

Here is nice vivid example for you. You mentioned Kuban, right? Here you are a Kuban kossack Timofei Yaschik (http://www.pravaya.ru/idea/20/2587) (note his nationality in his English passport):

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1433/1403059289_adaf884bae_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1350/1403059291_2a7d9dbce9_o.jpg


They mean that the only Ukraine and Belarus are the successors of Kyiv Rus.
The tzar of Moscovia Peter I changed the name of Moscovia to Russia (from the word derivative from Rus) just out of his political ambitions. That was a kind of hystoric falsification. The word Moskali derived from the name of the country Moskovia. In the Belorussian and Ukrainian language it was the only word to denote a Russian till the 1920s.
The name Russia was applied to the domain of Moscow as well as the name Moskovia. As far as I know. In the 12th century the areas of Vladimir and Suzdal were reffered to as Russia as well...
And as for the "hystoric falsification", be carefull as the modern English may get upset as they actually have little in common with original Anglo-Saxons living there before Norman invasion. But I think we will continue this discussion after Holodomor.

Egorka
09-18-2007, 04:32 PM
So does the Kato want to say that the Jews WERE guilt in Henocide of Ukrainians?
Lets see if he has guts for that. ;)


Chevan: BTW do you accidentally have the INFOR about the national Staff of Central Commite of Comunist Party of Ukraine in this period?
Not right now. I guess it is possible to find on the Internet. I will try to look arround. But can not promise anything. :)

Read this one: Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/266972.html)

According to it the distribution of the Central Ukrainian Communist Party Comeete members was the folowing:

People:
01.01.1925 : russians - 34,6%; ukrainians - 15,4%; jews - 30,8%; other - 19,2%.
01.01.1926 : russians - 29,8%; ukrainians - 34,4%; jews - 32,8%; other - 3%.


And here is one of the tables:
http://www.ljplus.ru/img/i/_/i_grappa/sovsluzh1.gif

The table shows the ethnic distribution of the managers in different ministries in Ukrain on 01.03.1926:

russians - 40,5%; ukrainians - 25,5%; jews - 28,4%; other - 5,6%

Nickdfresh
09-19-2007, 01:07 AM
Hasn't this been covered in other threads? :rolleyes:

Chevan
09-19-2007, 01:45 AM
Lets see if he has guts for that. ;)


Not right now. I guess it is possible to find on the Internet. I will try to look arround. But can not promise anything. :)

Read this one: Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/266972.html)

According to it the distribution of the Central Ukrainian Communist Party Comeete members was the folowing:

People:
01.01.1925 : russians - 34,6%; ukrainians - 15,4%; jews - 30,8%; other - 19,2%.
01.01.1926 : russians - 29,8%; ukrainians - 34,4%; jews - 32,8%; other - 3%.


Thanks mate.
I would to know about the such figures in the early 1930-yy.
But as we could CLERLY see in your table the yarly resault so called Ukrainisation- the forced substitution the Non-Ukrainians in Ukr SSR byt he ethnical ukrainians in Local govenment.
I/m sure if the already in the 1926 the Ukrainians WERE the Majority among the Ukrainians Communists.
So there is no any doubts in the 1931 the situation should be the "Better".

Chevan
09-19-2007, 02:01 AM
Done.
I found it.
look at here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization#1923-1931:_Early_years_of_Soviet_UkraineThe table "Communist Party members
and candidates to membership in Ukraine Comparty"


Year.... Members at all.......Ukrainians.....Russians....... Other ( mostly jews)
1925.....101,852 .................. 36,9% .......43,4% ............19,7%
1927....168,087 ................... 51,9%........ 30,0% .............18,1%
1930.... 270,698................... 52,9%........ 29,3% .............. 17,8%
1933.....468,793 ................. 60,0% ........23,0% ............... 17,0%

So as we could se from this table the Urainisation forced out continuously the Russians form the Ukrain Comparty.
Already in the 1930 there were OVER half of Ukrainians.
Do not need to repeate you gyus that all those Ukrainian Commi WERE directly responsible for the Policy of Colonisation/Collectivisation in Ukraine. The fierced unhuman mehtods of Ukraine local authorities that was the reason of so Holodomor that to the contrast with other regions of USSR was the WORST.
So any attempts to guit the Russians in the events of the 1931-33 is nothing more that the Political propoganda and attempt to avoid the personal responsibility for the unhuman behavior of the Local Ukrainian Communists Authorities toward the OWN population.

Cheers.

Nickdfresh
09-20-2007, 09:57 AM
I think the famine inflicted a wide swath of the Soviet Union, however, it was purposefully exacerbated by grain confiscations in the Ukraine to extinguish Ukrainian culture...

Chevan
09-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I think the famine inflicted a wide swath of the Soviet Union, however, it was purposefully exacerbated by grain confiscations in the Ukraine to extinguish Ukrainian culture...
Holy tue Nick.;)
And you right the resault of Holodomoe was the wide swath of the entire Soviet Union, but not ONLY the Ukrainians.
However the Local Communists fanatics who so like to lick the *** for the comride Stalin during the Ukrainisation try hard to convert the collectivisation to the real terror - to the contrast of other regions.

Kato
09-20-2007, 01:45 PM
removed. Pardon, double posting.

Kato
09-20-2007, 01:49 PM
Read this one: Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы (http://i-grappa.livejournal.com/266972.html)

According to it the distribution of the Central Ukrainian Communist Party Comeete members was the folowing:

People:
01.01.1925 : russians - 34,6%; ukrainians - 15,4%; jews - 30,8%; other - 19,2%.
01.01.1926 : russians - 29,8%; ukrainians - 34,4%; jews - 32,8%; other - 3%.


And here is one of the tables:
http://www.ljplus.ru/img/i/_/i_grappa/sovsluzh1.gif

The table shows the ethnic distribution of the managers in different ministries in Ukrain on 01.03.1926:

russians - 40,5%; ukrainians - 25,5%; jews - 28,4%; other - 5,6%



This information was recorded in 1926 г. By the 1932 the proportion of Russian nationals and Jews could rise significantly.

However even these figures testifies that Ukrainians who were the absolute majority in Ukraine were in the absolute minority in the Soviet auithorities of Ukraine.




Posted by Chevan Read this one: Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы

According to it the distribution of the Central Ukrainian Communist Party Comeete members was the folowing:
People:
01.01.1925 : russians - 34,6%; ukrainians - 15,4%; jews - 30,8%; other - 19,2%.
01.01.1926 : russians - 29,8%; ukrainians - 34,4%; jews - 32,8%; other - 3%.[/B]

There is no such data at the link provided by Egorka and mentioned by you.

There is only one position in the party structures called instructer of party regional commissions where Ukrainians ( 37,2%) outnumbered Russians (32,2%) and Jews ( 24,8%) in 1926. The gross figures of the ethnic composition of Soviet authorities in Ukraine indicates that Russians and Jews formed the absolute majority there.

(В указанный период среди инструкторов окружных партийных комитетов евреи составляли 32,2%. Для сравнения: украинцев - 37,2%, русских - 24,8%.)

На 1 января 1925 г. работников русской национальности насчитывалось девять человек, украинской - четыре, прочих — пять, еврейской - восемь, т.е. около 31%. Ровно через год украинцев было уже 22 человека, русских - 19, прочих - 2, евреев - 21 (13%). В указанный период среди инструкторов окружных партийных комитетов евреи составляли 32,2%
В указанный период среди инструкторов окружных партийных комитетов евреи составляли 32,2%. Для сравнения: украинцев - 37,2%, русских - 24,8%. Даже на селе во главе партко¬мов стояло 222 еврея - 7,2% от всего числа секретарей, что превышало численность лиц еврейской национальности в УССР, не говоря уже о сельском еврейском населении.
Аналогичная ситуация наблюдалась и в комсомоле. На конец 1925 г. в ЛКСМУ насчитывалось 14,1% евреев. В составе пленумов окружных комитетов (ОК) их было уже 18,1%, а в рядах рабочих пятерок ОК - уже почти 34,5%, среди инструкторов ОК - 33,3%. Еще выше был процентный состав актива детского коммунистического движения: среди председателей ОДБ - 46,3% (больше, чем русских и украинцев), среди инструкторов ОДБ - 60%. Не были исключением и профсоюзные организации: среди их руководящего состава (1924 г.) евреи составляли 38,8%, столько же насчитывалось работников русской национальности и 17,4% - украинцев.

Kato
09-20-2007, 02:06 PM
Holy tue Nick.
And you right the resault of Holodomoe was the wide swath of the entire Soviet Union, but not ONLY the Ukrainians.
However the Local Communists fanatics who so like to lick the *** for the comride Stalin during the Ukrainisation try hard to convert the collectivisation to the real terror - to the contrast of other regions.

I don't say that the Russian and Jewish Bilsheviks targetted
only Ukrainians in their artificially created hunger. They targetted the non-Russian population of the Volga region in modern Russia and in certain areas of Kazahstan. But there was not a mass artificially created hunger among Russians.

Chevan deliberately distorts facts the politics of Ukrainisation had been stopped by the late 1920s when holodomor took place in 1932-33. Ukrainisation meant only the allowance to use Ukrainian language in some schools, public instititution, print books in Ukrainian. Local Ukrainian communists related to Ukrainistion had been arrested by 1932.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 02:23 PM
This information was recorded in 1926 г. By the 1932 the proportion of Russian nationals and Jews could rise significantly.

Do not repeat a busl... again Kato
In MY table reflected the ethnical staff of the Ukrain Comparty members.
As we could SEE the PERCENTAGE of the Ukrainian members RISED continiously till the 1933.
At the same time the proportion of Russian decreased constantly.
This WAS A DIRECT RESAULT OF THE Ukrainisation and the Communists nationalistic propoganda in Ukraine.


However even these figures testifies that Ukrainians who were the absolute majority in Ukraine were in the absolute minority in the Soviet auithorities of Ukraine.

wrong again ;)
The Egorka's table REFLECTS the situation in mid of the 1920-yy.
The MY table showed the RISE of the Ukrainians in the Comparty ( i.e. in the Ukrain Local gov)untill 1933. In the 1933 the Ukrainians were the ABSOLUTE MAJORITY ( over 60%) among the Ukrainian communists and structures of authorities.


There is no such data at the link provided by Egorka and mentioned by you.

Oh really?
Do not repeat it again Kato.......;)
Egorka told about 1925-26., i tell about 1932-33 when the Ukrainians was majority.
The figures of Egorka very close to the datas from Wiki that i've mentioned indeed.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 02:42 PM
I don't say that the Russian and Jewish Bilsheviks targetted
only Ukrainians in their artificially created hunger. They targetted the non-Russian population of the Volga region in modern Russia and in certain areas of Kazahstan. But there was not a mass artificially created hunger among Russians.

Do somebody hear this guys?
Finaly Mst Kato blamed the Russians and Jews in the Henocide of non-russian population.
Good Kato,very good....;)
This is already the Jews who guilt in the taggeted Holodomor agains the Ukrainians.
No you are the definitelly the anti-semite. That i have to confirm.
You use the simple old Nazy anti-semite propoganda point toward the Events in Ukraine in 1933.;)


Chevan deliberately distorts facts the politics of Ukrainisation had been stopped by the late 1920s when holodomor took place in 1932-33. Ukrainisation meant only the allowance to use Ukrainian language in some schools, public instititution, print books in Ukrainian. Local Ukrainian communists related to Ukrainistion had been arrested by 1932.
Lie dear Kato;)
Coz political of Ukrainisation was not limited by only the "allowance to use Ukrainian language" in the places where the speaks ONLY in russians ( coz the ukrainians were the insignificant part in the area) but also AND changing the Local Authorities members ( who initially as we sae were mostly the Jewish/Russian) to the Ukrainiians ones.
According to the Bolshevic politic of "Korenisation" the Local ethnical nationalities come to the power.
And you are wrong about Local ukrains who related to the Ukrainisatin were arrested in 1932.
The absolute majority of the Ukrainians who come to the party due to the Ukrainisation svaed its places and posts in Ukraine gov except the few odious commi leaders who were arrested and shot to death soon as the scapegoat for the Mistakes of Local gov befor the Holodomor.
Sure the motives of execution of them were deeper - Stalin had the own political aim. But fact that those Ukrainian Communist were responsible for all crimes and holodomore IS OBVIOUS.
And do not make us laught to say that somebody ( jews or Moskali) were guilt in the Henocide you OWN people- YOU Rown commi were guilt for this, no one more

Kato
09-20-2007, 02:42 PM
Posted by Chevan

The Comparty NEVER try to annihilate the ANY ethnical group - you clearly know it Kato;)

The Bolshevics "fought" against Class enemy - not against the ethnical /race enemies.

The deliberate murder of the millions upon millions of the people of the definite nationality within 18-20 months. almost 100% of these Ukrainian victims were the underprivelaged peasants who were promised personal land by communists in 1917 and who should have been protected and economically supported by The Comparty of the Soviet Union and its punitive machine if they had "fought" against Class enemies who were actually absent in Ukraine since 1922.


It had no sense coz the Bolshevism/communism was INTERNATIONAL movenment ( to the contrast of the Nazy ideology that was bases on race-superiority).

This INTERNATIONAL movenment in the Soviet Union of 1930s-1950s was the international movement of Russians and Russificated Jews.


Bolshevics NEVER try to annihilate the Ethnical group, they ONLY deported some of the Ethnical groups- you know it.

The deportations were carried out only for the annihilations of definite
nationalities. The annihilation was reached by removing the whole nation ( if it a small one) or some parts of the nation from its homeland to the remote territories with severe climate and without almost any means for sirvival where some proportion of them died. Those who survived should have been assimilated by breaking their ties with their homelands.

Kato
09-20-2007, 02:56 PM
Posted by Chevan

wrong again
The Egorka's table REFLECTS the situation in mid of the 1920-yy.
The MY table showed the RISE of the Ukrainians in the Comparty ( i.e. in the Ukrain Local gov)untill 1933. In the 1933 the Ukrainians were the ABSOLUTE MAJORITY ( over 60%) among the Ukrainian communists and structures of authorities.

Your table related only to the general figure of Ukrainian party members in the puppet UkrCom party.

It does not reflect the sphere were they worked. So the majority of these Ukraininians members of UkrCom party were ordinary workers, miners etc.

While the table provided by Egorka showed the ethnical makeup of the people who were managers in the ministries, judges or bosses in the punitive organs of the Soviet regime.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 02:56 PM
The deliberate murder of the millions upon millions of the people of the definite nationality within 18-20 months. almost 100% of these Ukrainian victims were the underprivelaged peasants who were promised personal land by communists in 1917 and who should have been protected and economically supported by The Comparty of the Soviet Union and its punitive machine if they had "fought" against Class enemies who were actually absent in Ukraine since 1922.

A buls...again.
Kato you clearly know that the "decret about Land" was the second law of Bolsevics in the 1918. They simply tryed to join the peasants to the their side.
They deceived all Russian impare's peasants - not ONLY Ukrainian ones.


This INTERNATIONAL movenment in the Soviet Union of 1930s-1950s was the international movement of Russians and Russificated Jews.

Good... again the Russificated Jews... very nice mst Goebbels, tell us more about Russificated Evil Jews who deserved to be murdered for the Holodomor and ets;)


The deportations were carried out only for the annihilations of definite
nationalities. The annihilation was reached by removing the whole nation ( if it a small one) or some parts of the nation from its homeland to the remote territories with severe climate and without almost any means for sirvival where some proportion of them died. Those who survived should have been assimilated by breaking their ties with their homelands.

Ha hA ha ;)....:D
That a really fun Kato.
The deportation mean ......annihilations;)

Do yo know for instance that the population of deported Chechens has increased OVER twice since 1944 untill the his coming back in Kavkaz .
And the Deported from the Western Ukraine 300 000 Poles in 1939-40 to Syberia WERE SAVED from the TOTAL HENOCIDE and annihilation by the UPA ethnical terror in 1943-44.
At least 70% of them had received the chance to come back to the Poland after the war due to deportation.
You are fanny man Kato.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 03:03 PM
It does not reflect the sphere were they worked. So the majority of these Ukraininians members of UkrCom party were ordinary workers, miners etc.

While the table provided by Egorka showed the ethnical makeup of the people who were managers in the ministries, judges or bosses in the punitive organs of the Soviet regime.

In the 1926.... His tables touch the 1925-26 do you understand it?
Besides YOU clearly know that not only the "ordinary workers, miners etc" has been the communists BUT FIRSTLY the ALL State officials and , all ministers and CERTAINLY all members of Local govenment.( coz the authorities were under controll of Ukrain Party) )
Coz the reason is simple - if you want to make a carier in soviet Russia - you HAVE to be the communists members.
The Irony of destiny is - they also were responsible for the Policy of the Party and its terror.

Kato
09-20-2007, 03:06 PM
Coz political of Ukrainisation was not limited by only the "allowance to use Ukrainian language" in the places where the speaks ONLY in russians ( coz the ukrainians were the insignificant part in the area) but also AND changing the Local Authorities members ( who initially as we sae were mostly the Jewish/Russian) to the Ukrainiians ones.

Don't make people laugh. The rural population of the South and Eastern Ukraine had been 100 % Ukrainian speaking by 1932. Only after Holodomor when there was a huge influx of Russians to these artificially depopulated lands the Russian language gained some role a spoken language. This role increased after the WWII and a new genocide of Ukrainians by hunger in 1946.

Kato
09-20-2007, 03:10 PM
A buls...again.
Kato you clearly know that the "decret about Land" was the second law of Bolsevics in the 1918. They simply tryed to join the peasants to the their side.
They deceived all Russian impare's peasants - not ONLY Ukrainian ones.

You must admit that Ukrainians rural inhabitants objectively were not class enemies according to the Marx doctrine used as the official ideology.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 03:21 PM
Don't make people laugh. The rural population of the South and Eastern Ukraine had been 100 % Ukrainian speaking by 1932. Only after Holodomor when there was a huge influx of Russians to these artificially depopulated lands the Russian language gained some role a spoken language. .
Well well the Ukrainisation in the 1920-yy, the forced
adoption of Ukrain language in the areas where the peoples prefered to speaks russian ,Building the Ukrainian churchs and ets...- were after the Holodomor;)
Interesting point

Kato
09-20-2007, 03:23 PM
Ha hA ha ....
That a really fun Kato.
The deportation mean ......annihilations

Do yo know for instance that the population of deported Chechens has increased OVER twice since 1944 untill the his coming back in Kavkaz .
And the Deported from the Western Ukraine 300 000 Poles in 1939-40 to Syberia WERE SAVED from the TOTAL HENOCIDE and annihilation by the UPA ethnical terror in 1943-44.
At least 70% of them had received the chance to come back to the Poland after the war due to deportation.
You are fanny man Kato.

You will evidently be satisfied only if all the male Chechens hed been made impotents. They are of Islamic denomination and naturally had large familes with many children.

The Russians admiited that they have killed more than 200000 Chechens out 2 millons in Chechnia since the early 1990. However there population of the Chechens remained stable due to high birth-rate.

For instance in Congo or some other African country millions of people die from HIV and war each year but the population quickly increases due to high birth rates.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 03:24 PM
You must admit that Ukrainians rural inhabitants objectively were not class enemies according to the Marx doctrine used as the official ideology.
Yea ... tell me the fary tells any more;)
And who were the Kulaks if the not Class enemies- have you forgeted it?
The Kulaks as the class should be luquidated -the collectivisation were direct firstly and mainly agains the Kulaks.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 03:29 PM
You will evidently be satisfied only if all the male Chechens hed been made impotents. They are of Islamic denomination and naturally had large familes with many children.

So they were no annihilated , were not they ?
So you have finaly refused own point that the deportation mean the annihilation;)


The Russians admiited that they have killed more than 200000 Chechens out 2 millons in Chechnia since the early 1990. However there population of the Chechens remained stable due to high birth-rate.

That's ruight ,
Exactly this fact proves that the DEPORTATION of the Chechen peoples was a Good ACTION that prevented the thousands of Chechens and other ethnical minorities who could be killed in the fierced Civil and religious war in the 1944-45.As it was in the 1992-2000.
The deportation indeed saved the thousands of them live.

Kato
09-20-2007, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Kato
Don't make people laugh. The rural population of the South and Eastern Ukraine had been 100 % Ukrainian speaking by 1932. Only after Holodomor when there was a huge influx of Russians to these artificially depopulated lands the Russian language gained some role a spoken language. .

Well well the Ukrainisation in the 1920-yy, the forced
adoption of Ukrain language in the areas where the peoples prefered to speaks russian ,Building the Ukrainian churchs and ets...- were after the Holodomor
Interesting point

I don't understand your point. I want you to remind that the Ukrainian language was turned into the language of peasants and some marginalised and pursecuted Intelligentsia
in Ukraine controlled by the tzar Russia before 1917.
There were a series of bans totally prohibiting the usage of Ukrainian in the education, theatrical performance, book , newspapers publishing.

Bolsheviks simply did not start to restore some of the most odious bans on the Ukrainian language and let the local peasants use this language which was traditional for them in other spheres but their kitchen-gardens

Chevan
09-20-2007, 03:37 PM
That's all Kato for tonight.
Its time to go to bad .

will see tomorrow.

Cheers.
P.S. thanks for the merry evening;):)

Kato
09-20-2007, 03:41 PM
Posted by Chevan
So they were no annihilated , were not they ?
So you have finaly refused own point that the deportation mean the annihilation

Following your logic if not all the European Jews were killed there was no Holocaust



The Russians admiited that they have killed more than 200000 Chechens out 2 millons in Chechnia since the early 1990. However there population of the Chechens remained stable due to high birth-rate.

Posted by Chevan
That's ruight ,
Exactly this fact proves that the DEPORTATION of the Chechen peoples was a Good ACTION that prevented the thousands of Chechens and other ethnical minorities who could be killed in the fierced Civil and religious war in the 1944-45.As it was in the 1992-2000.
The deportation indeed saved the thousands of them live.

So as I see you still are for the deportations and genocides of civilians. In stead of war you are for quiet genocide of unarmed woman and children.

Chevan
09-21-2007, 01:09 AM
Following your logic if not all the European Jews were killed there was no Holocaust

Again no;)
Folowing the any LOGIC at all - Nazy never covered the fact they want to "Clear the Europe from the jews". Through the mass killing or through the mass deportation to the Concetration camps ( this is still the disputable question in the west).
However they OFFICIALLY DECLARED the race-superiority policy toward the all non-arian races .
You clearly know it Kato - the NAzy hold the ethnical teror.
The Bolshevic never declared the ethnical terror- they declared itself as the Internationalists.
The any race oriented slogans or actions of Bolshevics would INEVITABLE have the anti-semitic resault for them.( You know why).

So as I see you still are for the deportations and genocides of civilians. In stead of war you are for quiet genocide of unarmed woman and children.
Yea .. i/m still for deportation, gulag, stalin, holodomor... and Peacefull GREAT communists FUTURE...;)
LalaLa....Oh this homesickness.
You do not hear me Kato.
Indeed the Chechen had the alternative in the 1944 - mass terror through the Civil and Religion war ( as it was in 1993-2000 when were killed 200 000 , about 150 000 of russians who lived in Groznjy and other chechen centres , and about 50 000 of other ethnical groups) .
Or they could be deporte to the GULAG - where the DEATH rate was MUCH MORE.
So indeed the deportation to the Kazahstan and Syberia wasn't the WORST dicision for them.

Chevan
09-21-2007, 01:32 AM
Bolsheviks simply did not start to restore some of the most odious bans on the Ukrainian language and let the local peasants use this language which was traditional for them in other spheres but their kitchen-gardens
This is not all.
You forget that bolshevics NOT ONLY did not restore the Tsar's bans , they have declared the Policy of the Korenization - they needs an strong NAtional opposition against formed (Russian imperial) elite and intelligencia.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D 0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F#.D0.A1.D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.B5.D1 .82.D1.81.D0.BA.D0.B0.D1.8F_.D1.83.D0.BA.D1.80.D0. B0.D0.B8.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.B0.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.8F _1920.E2.80.941930-.D1.85_.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE.D0.B2

Во время гражданской войны в 1917-20 годах на юге бывшей Российской Империи был организован ряд правительств, ставивших своей целью построение независимого украинского государства. Однако, на большей части современной территории Украины к власти пришли большевики. С целью закрепления власти, большевики взялись за реализацию программы коренизации — замены русского языка на языки национальных меньшинств в администрации, образовании и сфере культуры. На Украине эта программа получила название украинизации. В апреле 1923 г. XII съезд РКП(б) объявил 'коренизацию' официальным курсом партии в национальном вопросе. В том же месяце VII конференция КП(б)У заявила о политике 'украинизации', что украинские ЦИК и Совнарком сразу же оформили декретами. Было принято решение об украинизации госструктур и предприятий, которую планировалось закончить до 1 января 1926 года. Все рабочие и служащие предприятий и учреждений были обязаны выучить украинский язык под угрозой увольнения с работы.
Из государственного архива Луганской области:[1]

«Подтвердить, что на службу можно принимать только лиц, владеющих украинским языком, а не владеющих можно принимать только по согласованию с Окружной комиссией по украинизации». Р-401 оп.1,д.82 Президиум Луганского Окр. исполкома: «Подтвердить сотрудникам, что неаккуратное посещение курсов и нежелание изучать украинский язык влечет за собой их увольнение со службы». Р-401, оп.1, дело 72.

В июле 1930 года президиум Сталинского окрисполкома принял решение «привлекать к уголовной ответственности руководителей организаций, формально относящихся к украинизации, не нашедших способов украинизировать подчиненных, нарушающих действующее законодательство в деле украинизации». Украинизировались газеты, школы, вузы, театры, учреждения, надписи, вывески и т. д. В Одессе, где учащиеся-украинцы составляли менее трети, были украинизированы все школы. В 1930 г. на Украине оставалось только 3 большие русскоязычные газеты.

Однако в постановлении ЦК КП(б)У от 19 апреля 1927 решено «признать особое значение русского языка». В последующие годы, в частности начиная с 1930, в партийных кругах усиливается активное противостояние украинизации. В 1932—1933 насильственная украинизация была временно приостановлена.

Наряду с украинизацией аналогичная политика коренизации проводилась и в других республиках. В процессе сворачивания коренизации эта политика была раскритикована как «национал-уклонизм» и многих деятелей, которые её поддерживали, впоследствии исключили из коммунистической партии.
.................................................. .............
During the Civil War in 1917-20 years in the south of the former Russian Empire the number of the governments, which set the construction of the independent Ukrainian state, was organized as their goal. However, on the larger part of the contemporary territory of the Ukraine at the authority arrived Bolsheviks. For the purpose of the fastening of authority, the Bolsheviks undertook the implementation of the program of korenizatsii - the replacement of the Russian language the languages of national minorities in the administration, the formation and the sphere of culture. In the Ukraine this program was called Ukrainization. During April 1923 THE XII congress UkrCP declared "korenizatsion"; by the official policy of party in a national question. In the same month THE VII conference KP(b)U stated about the policy of "ukrainizatsion", that Ukrainian TCIK council of peoples commissars immediately designed by decrees. Was accepted the solution about the Ukrainization of state structures and enterprises, which it was planned to finish until 1 January, 1926.
All workers and employees of enterprises and establishments were obligated to learn Ukrainian language under the threat of release from the work. From the Public Archive Of the Lugansk area:"to confirm that upon the service it is possible to assume only those, who manage Ukrainian language, but who do not manage it is possible to assume only according to the agreement with the neighborhood commission on Ukrainization".
P -401 of op.y, d.82 presidium The luganskogo dist. of the executive committee: "to confirm to colleagues that careless visit it is course and the unwillingness to study Ukrainian language entails their release from the service".
R -401, op.y, matter 72. During July 1930 the presidium of Stalin area comite made the decision "to assign on the penal responsibility of the leaders of the organizations, which formally relate to the Ukrainization, which did not find the methods to Ukrainianize subordinates, which disrupt the current legislation in the matter of Ukrainization".
Were Ukrainianized newspapers, schools, Institute of Higher Education, theaters, establishments, inscriptions, signboards, etc.
In Odessa, where the study- Ukrainians comprised less than third, were Ukrainianized all schools. In 1930 in the Ukraine it remained only 3 large russian-speaking newspapers. However, in the decision TSK To kP(b)U of 19 April 1927 is decided "to recognize the special importance of the Russian language". During the subsequent years, in particular beginning from 1930, in the party circles is strengthened active opposition to Ukrainization. Forced Ukrainization was temporarily stopped in 1932 - 1933.
Together with the Ukrainization the analogous policy of korenizatsii was conducted also in other republics. In the process of the displacement of korenizatsii this policy was criticized severely as "national- deviationism" and many workers, who supported it, subsequently they excluded from the Communist Party.

As we see the first and direct resault of Ukrainisatin was - to widely involve the Ukraininas in the Soviet structures of power, management of the industry and ets.
The condition of assuming to the works was NOT equal for the Russians and native Ukrainians.
This explain the quick rise of Ukrainians in the power structures, ComParty and ets in the end of 1920-yy.
The Ukrainisation - the forced imposing of Ukraine language and culture in regions like Odessa where the Ukrainians were minorities- was resault of culttural and language discrimination of the non-ukrainians ( jews, russaina and others).

Kato
09-21-2007, 02:27 PM
Posted by Chevan

Again no
Folowing the any LOGIC at all - Nazy never covered the fact they want to "Clear the Europe from the jews". Through the mass killing or through the mass deportation to the Concetration camps ( this is still the disputable question in the west).
However they OFFICIALLY DECLARED the race-superiority policy toward the all non-arian races .
You clearly know it Kato - the NAzy hold the ethnical teror.


The only difference is in the cover. The Russian and Jewish Bolsheviks used as the cover for their ethnic terror class ideology. The German Nazi worked out some myths about arians, arian nations.
The time showed that the cover of Bolsheviks was much better from political point of view than the racial cover ( or actually the absence of any cover) that was openly announced immediately after Germans seized some new territory.



The any race oriented slogans or actions of Bolshevics would INEVITABLE have the anti-semitic resault for them.( You know why).

The actions of Bolshevics had significant anti-semitic and anti-Russian effects.



The Bolshevic never declared the ethnical terror- they declared itself as the Internationalists.

Well considering the bunch of nations declared arian that from the very beginning include such different nations as Germans, Italians, Japanese, Hungarins, Finns, Croats etc. that belong to absolutely different ethnic groups you can call Greman Nazi internationalists as well. What's more since 1943 they started to create national SS units ( initially SS was considered to form the elite of arians) literally from everyone who volonteered. They even recruited Arabs and Tuaregs who were of mixed Arabian-Black origin. So one can call fascists as internationalists.

Kato
09-24-2007, 07:47 PM
Posted by Chevan:

Holodomor?Why not?
Good idea Nick.
Mate the Holodomore wasn't the ethnical terror- it was a common policy in the Whole USSR in the beginning of the 1930. Not only in Ukraine.
The victims of Holodomor among the all ethnical groups.

According to estimates[44] about 81.3% of the victims in 1932-33 were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and Crimean Tatars became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[46] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years. There are no doubts that artificially-created hunger in Ukraine was the most brutal form of ethnical terror. Some historians claim that nearly all this 4.5% of people who died mainly in the regions populated by Ukrainians outside UKraine and who were listed as Russians were also of Ukrainian origin.




Posted by Chevan
However the reason of such great death rate in Ukrain was the RESAULT of policy own Ukrainians Communists and Personaly , ardent ukrainizator, the chairman OF SNK OF UKRAINIAN SSR Chubar who signed the special inhuman decision "fight with the sabotage". ( tha key law that forbid any selling and importing the food to the Ukraine from the oher regions).

It is nonsence. One could believe it if Ukraine was an independent state then.
But it was a country that was a part of the USSR and fully controlled by Moscow. The proportion of Russians and Russificated Jews who held the average and higher positions in the local "Ukrainian" authorities was roughly about 70%, 10 % other nationals and only 20% Ukrainians. Everyone knows that the USSR had the plan economy. In the plan economy of the USSR everything was thoroghly regulated and controlled by the central government and ministries in Moscow up to what bolts should be produced and in what quantity at some particular plant. So it is evident that all those campaigns of confiscations in Ukraine were initiated, planned and controlled by Moscow. The ban on importing food from other regions was imposed by Moscow. Chubar was on the errands of the communists of Russia and had nothing to do with Ukrainisation. There are hundreds of documents testifying that Moscow demanded to confiscate all the food-stuffs from Ukrainian peasants, deployed units of NKVD and the Red Army from Russia to block the Ukrainian regions inflicted with the artificailly created hunger and kill all those who attempted to leave them. The central communist government in Moscow denied Holodomor or mass hunger and tried to prevent all the leaks of information about this tragedy for decades till the USSR collapsed in the 1991. Moscow refused to accept the international humanitarian aid in 1933 declaring the absence of hunger in Ukraine. Russian and Jewish communists in Moscow had the full information and control over the situation in Ukraine and did their best to inflict as much losses to the Ukrainian nation as possible. They openly announced holodomor as the war against nationalistic counter-revolution in Ukraine.

Kato
09-24-2007, 08:06 PM
This is the original text of the directive issued by the central government in Moscow to prevent Ukrainians from leaving Ukraine for other parts of the USSR using all possible means during holodomor in 1933. It was for both the soviet authorities in Ukraine and in neighbouring Russia and Belarus. Signed by Molotov and Stalin


Директива ЦК ВКП(б) и СНК СССР в связи с массовым выездом крестьян за пределы Украины
Материал из Викитеки — свободной библиотеки
Перейти к: навигация, поиск
22 января 1933 г.

Ростов-Дон, Харьков, Воронеж, Смоленск, Минск, Сталинград, Самара

N. 65/ш

До ЦКВК и СНК дошли сведения, что на Кубани и Украине начался массовый выезд крестьян «за хлебом» в ЦЧО, на Волгу, Московскую обл., Западную обл., Белоруссию. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком СССР не сомневаются, что этот выезд крестьян, как и выезд из Украины в прошлом году, организован врагами Советской власти, эсерами и агентами Польши с целью агитации «через крестьян» в северных районах СССР против колхозов и вообще против Советской власти. В прошлом году партийные, советские и чекистские органы Украины прозевали эту контрреволюционную затею врагов Советской власти. В этом году не может быть допущено повторение прошлогодней ошибки.

Первое. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком СССР предписывают крайкому, крайисполкому и ПП ОГПУ Северного Кавказа не допускать массовый выезд крестьян из Северного Кавказа в другие края и въезд в пределы края из Украины.

Второе. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ЦК КП(б)У, Балицкому и Реденсу не допускать массовый выезд крестьян из Украины в другие края и въезд на Украину из Северного Кавказа.

Третье. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ПП ОГПУ Московской обл., ЦЧО, Западной обл., Белоруссии, Нижней Волги и Средней Волги арестовывать пробравшихся на север «крестьян» Украины и Северного Кавказа и после того, как будут отобраны контрреволюционные элементы, водворять остальных в места их жительства.

Четвертое. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ТО ГПУ Прохорову дать соответствующее распоряжение по системе ТО ГПУ.

Предсовнарком СССР В. М. Молотов Секретарь ЦК ВКП(б) И. Сталин

(РГАСПИ. Ф. 558.Оп. 11. Д. 45. Л. 109-109об.)