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View Full Version : The 68th Anniversary of Soviet Aggression on Poland



Kovalski
09-17-2007, 05:40 AM
"The Soviet invasion of Poland of 1939 was a military operation that started on September 17, 1939, during the early stages of World War II, sixteen days after the Nazi German attack on Poland. It ended in a decisive victory for the Soviet Union's Red Army.

In early 1939, the Soviet Union claimed it tried to form an anti-German alliance with the United Kingdom, France, Poland, and Romania; but several difficulties arose, including the refusal of Poland and Romania to allow Soviet troops into their territories as part of collective security.[7] With the failure of the negotiations, the Soviets reversed their policy and on 23 August signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Nazi Germany. As a result, on 1 September, the Germans invaded Poland from the west; and on 17 September, the Red Army invaded Poland from the east after several calls by Germany to do so. The Soviet government announced that it was acting to protect the Ukrainians and Belarusians who lived in the eastern part of Poland, because the Polish state had collapsed in the face of the German attack and could no longer guarantee the security of its own citizens.[8][9]

The Red Army quickly achieved its targets, vastly outnumbering Polish resistance. It has been documented that the Polish fought bravely with casualties of up to six thousand to seven thousand. The Red Army meanwhile included deaths of about 3,000 and under 10,000 wounded as a result of the battle.[1] About 230,000 Polish soldiers or more were taken prisoners of war.[10] The Soviet government annexed the territory newly under its control and in November declared that the 13.5 million Polish citizens who lived there were now Soviet citizens. The Soviets quelled opposition by executing and arresting thousands.[11] They sent hundreds of thousands (estimates vary) to Siberia and other remote parts of the USSR in four major waves of deportations between 1939 and 1941.[b]

The Soviet invasion, which the Politburo called "the liberation campaign", led to the incorporation of millions of Poles as well as western Ukrainians and western Belarusians into the Soviet Ukrainian and Byelorussian republics.[12] During the existence of the People's Republic of Poland, the invasion was considered a delicate subject, almost taboo, and was often omitted from official history in order to preserve the illusion of "eternal friendship" between members of the Eastern Bloc.[13]
Contents

* 1 Prelude
* 2 Military campaign
* 3 Allied reaction
* 4 Aftermath
o 4.1 Byelorussia and Ukraine
o 4.2 Censorship
* 5 Orders of battle
* 6 Notes
* 7 References
* 8 Select bibliography
* 9 External links
Prelude
Deployment of Polish divisions on 1 September. The majority of Polish forces were concentrated on the German border; the Soviet border had been mostly stripped of units.
Deployment of Polish divisions on 1 September. The majority of Polish forces were concentrated on the German border; the Soviet border had been mostly stripped of units.

In the late 1930s, the Soviet Union tried to form an anti-German alliance with the United Kingdom, France and Poland.[h] The negotiations, however, proved difficult. The Soviets insisted on a sphere of influence stretching from Finland to Romania and asked for military support not only against anyone who attacked them directly but against anyone who attacked the countries in their proposed sphere of influence.[14] They also demanded the right to enter Poland, Romania and the Baltic States whenever they felt their security was threatened. The governments of those countries rejected the proposal because, as Polish foreign minister Józef Beck pointed out, they feared that once the Red Army entered their territories, it might never leave.[7] The Soviets did not trust the British and French to honour collective security, since they had failed to assist Spain against the Fascists or protect Czechoslovakia from the Nazis. They also suspected that the Western Allies would prefer the Soviet Union to fight Germany by itself, while they watched from the sidelines.[15] In view of these concerns, the Soviet Union abandoned the negotiations and turned instead to an alliance with Germany.

On 23 August 1939, the Soviet Union signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Nazi Germany, taking the allies by surprise. The two governments announced the agreement merely as a non-aggression treaty. As a secret appendix reveals, however, they had actually agreed to partition Poland between themselves and divide Eastern Europe into Soviet and German spheres of influence.[d] The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which has been described as a license for war, was a key factor in Hitler’s decision to invade Poland.[7][16]

The treaty provided the Soviets with extra defensive space in the west.[17] It also offered them a chance to regain territories ceded to Poland twenty years earlier and to unite the eastern and western Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples under a Soviet government for the first time.[18] Soviet leader Joseph Stalin saw advantages in a war in western Europe, which might weaken his ideological enemies and open up new regions to the advance of communism.[19][f]

Soon after the Germans invaded Poland on September 1, the Nazi leaders began urging the Soviets to play their agreed part and attack Poland from the east. The German ambassador to Moscow, Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg, and the Soviet foreign minister, Vyacheslav Molotov, exchanged a series of diplomatic communiqués on the matter.[8] The Soviets delayed their intervention for several reasons. They were distracted by crucial events in their war with Japan; they needed time to mobilise the Red Army; and they saw a diplomatic advantage in waiting until Poland had disintegrated before making their move.[20][21] On 17 September, Molotov declared on the radio that all treaties between the Soviet Union and Poland were now void,[g] because the Polish government had abandoned its people and effectively ceased to exist.[22] On the same day, the Red Army crossed the border into Poland.[20][4]

The Red Army entered the eastern regions of Poland with seven field armies and between 450,000 and 1,000,000 troops.[4] These were deployed on two fronts: the Belarusian Front under Mikhail Kovalyov, and the Ukrainian Front under Semyon Timoshenko.[4] By this time, the Poles had failed to defend their western borders, and in response to German incursions had launched a major counter-offensive in the Battle of the Bzura. The Polish Army originally had a well-developed defensive plan to deal with the threat of the Soviet Union, but they were unprepared to face two invasions at once.[23] By the time the Soviets invaded, the Polish commanders had sent most of their troops west to face the Germans, leaving the east protected by only 20 under-strength battalions. These battalions consisted of about 20,000 troops of border defence corps (Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza), under the command of general Wilhelm Orlik-Rueckemann.[1][4]
Soviet and German officers meet after the Soviet invasion of Poland. From German propaganda newsreel.
Soviet and German officers meet after the Soviet invasion of Poland. From German propaganda newsreel.

At first, the Polish commander-in-chief, Marshal of Poland Edward Rydz-Śmigły, ordered the border forces to resist the Soviets. He then changed his mind after consulting with Prime Minister Felicjan Sławoj Składkowski and ordered them to fall back and engage the Soviets only in self-defense.[1][5] The two conflicting sets of orders led to confusion,[4] and when the Red Army attacked Polish units, clashes and small battles inevitably broke out.[1] The response of non-ethnic Poles to the situation added a further complication. In some cases, Ukrainians,[m] Belarusians[24] and Jews[25] welcomed the invading troops as liberators. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists rose against the Poles, and communist partisans organised local revolts, for example in Skidel.[4][j]

The Polish military's original fall-back plan was to retreat and regroup along the Romanian Bridgehead, an area in south-east Poland near the border with Romania. The idea was to adopt defensive positions there and wait for a promised French and British attack in the west. This plan assumed that Germany would have to reduce its operations in Poland in order to fight on a second front.[4] The allies expected Polish forces to hold out for up to several months, but the Soviet attack made this strategy obsolete.


The Polish political and military leaders knew that they were losing the war against Germany even before the Soviet invasion settled the issue.[4] Nevertheless, they refused to surrender or negotiate a peace with Germany. Instead, the Polish government ordered all military units to evacuate Poland and reassemble in France.[4] The government itself crossed into Romania at around midnight on 17 September. Polish units proceeded to manoeuvre towards the Romanian bridgehead area, sustaining German attacks on one flank and occasionally clashing with Soviet troops on the other. In the days following the evacuation order, the Germans defeated the Polish Armies Kraków and Lublin at the Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski, which lasted from 17 to 20 September.[26][...]

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

Kovalski
09-17-2007, 05:42 AM
[...]
Soviet units often met their German counterparts advancing from the opposite direction. Several notable examples of co-operation occurred between the two armies in the field. The Wehrmacht passed the Brest Fortress, which had been seized after the Battle of Brześć Litewski, to the Soviet 29th Tank Brigade on 17 September.[27] German General Heinz Guderian and Soviet Brigadier Semyon Krivoshein then held a joint victory parade in the town.[27] Lwów (Lviv) surrendered on 22 September, days after the Germans handed the siege operations over to the Soviets.[28][29] Soviet forces had taken Wilno on 19 September after a two-day battle, and they took Grodno on 24 September after a four-day battle. By 28 September, the Red Army had reached the line of the rivers Narew, Western Bug, Vistula and San—the border agreed in advance with the Germans.

Despite a tactical Polish victory on 28 September at the Battle of Szack, the outcome of the larger conflict was never in doubt.[30] Civilian volunteers, militias, and reorganised retreating units held out in the Polish capital, Warsaw, till 28 September. The Modlin Fortress, north of Warsaw, surrendered the next day after an intense sixteen-day battle. On 1 October, Soviet troops drove Polish units into the forests at the battle of Wytyczno, one of the last direct confrontations of the campaign.[31] Some isolated Polish garrisons managed to hold their positions long after being surrounded; but the last operational unit of the Polish Army to surrender was General Franciszek Kleeberg's Independent Operational Group Polesie (Samodzielna Grupa Operacyjna "Polesie"). Kleeberg surrendered on 6 October after the four-day Battle of Kock (near Lublin), which ended the September Campaign. The Soviets were victorious. On 31 October, Molotov reported to the Supreme Soviet: "A short blow by the German army, and subsequently by the Red Army, was enough for nothing to be left of this ugly creature of the Treaty of Versailles".[32]

Allied reaction

The reaction of France and Britain to Poland's plight was muted, since neither wanted a confrontation with the Soviet Union at that stage.[33] Under the terms of the Anglo-Polish Agreement of 25 August 1939, the British had promised Poland assistance if attacked by a European power;[k] but when Polish Ambassador Edward Raczyński reminded Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax of the pact, he was bluntly told that it was Britain's business whether to declare war on the Soviet Union.[33] British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain considered making a public commitment to restore Polish statehood, but in the end he issued only general statements of condemnation.[33]

The French had also made promises to Poland, including the provision of air support, and these were not honoured. Once the Soviets moved into Poland, the French and the British decided there was nothing they could do for Poland in the short term and began planning for a long-term victory instead. The French had advanced tentatively into the Saar in early September, but after the Polish defeat, they retreated behind the Maginot Line on October 4.[34] Many Poles resented this lack of support from their western allies, which aroused a lasting sense of betrayal.

Aftermath

In October 1939, Molotov reported to the Supreme Soviet that the Soviets had suffered 737 deaths and 1,862 casualties during the campaign, though Polish specialists claim up to 3,000 deaths and 8,000 to 10,000 wounded.[e] On the Polish side, between 6,000 and 7,000 soldiers died fighting the Red Army, with 230,000 to 450,000 taken prisoner.[1][35] The Soviets often failed to honour terms of surrender. In some cases, they promised Polish soldiers freedom and then arrested them when they laid down their arms.[4]

The Soviet Union had ceased to recognise the Polish state at the start of the invasion.[8][9] As a result, the two governments never officially declared war on each other. The Soviets therefore did not classify Polish military prisoners as prisoners of war but as rebels against the new legal government of Western Ukraine and Western Byelorussia.[n] The Soviets killed tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war. Some, like General Józef Olszyna-Wilczyński, who was captured, interrogated and shot on 22 September, were executed during the campaign itself.[36][37] On 24 September, the Soviets killed forty-two staff and patients of a Polish military hospital in the village of Grabowiec, near Zamość.[38] The Soviets also executed all the Polish officers they captured after the Battle of Szack, on 28 September.[30] Over 20,000 Polish military personnel and civilians perished in the Katyn massacre.[27][4]

The Poles and the Soviets re-established diplomatic relations in 1941, following the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement; but the Soviets broke them off again in 1943 after the Polish government demanded an independent examination of the recently discovered Katyn burial pits.[39] The Soviets then lobbied the Western Allies to recognize the pro-Soviet Polish puppet government of Wanda Wasilewska in Moscow.[40]

On 28 September 1939, the Soviet Union and Germany had changed the secret terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. They moved Lithuania into the Soviet sphere of influence and shifted the border in Poland to the east, giving Germany more territory.[2] By this arrangement, often described as a fourth partition of Poland,[4] the Soviet Union secured almost all Polish territory east of the line of the rivers Pisa, Narew, Western Bug and San. This amounted to about 200,000 square kilometres of land, inhabited by 13.5 million Polish citizens.[5]

The Red Army had originally sowed confusion among the locals by claiming that they were arriving to save Poland from the Nazis.[41] Their advance surprised Polish communities and their leaders, who had not been advised how to respond to a Bolshevik invasion. For various reasons, the Polish, including many Jewish citizens, might at first have preferred a Soviet regime to a German one,[42]. But the Poles were to find the Soviets to be as hostile and destructive towards them and their culture as the Nazis ultimately were.[43][44] For instance, the Soviets quickly began confiscating, nationalising and redistributing all private and state-owned Polish property.[45] During the two years following the annexation, the Soviets also arrested approximately 100,000 Polish citizens [46] and deported between 350,000 and 1,500,000, of whom between 250,000 and 1,000,000 died, mostly civilians.[b][47][...]

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

Kovalski
09-17-2007, 05:43 AM
Byelorussia and Ukraine

Of the 13.5 million civilians living in the newly annexed territories, Poles were the largest single ethnic group; but Belarusians and Ukrainians together made up over 50% of the population.[c] The annexation did not give the Soviet Union control of all the areas where Belarusians or Ukrainians lived, some of which fell west of the new German–Soviet border.[l] Nonetheless, it united the vast majority of the two peoples within the expanded Soviet Byelorussian and Ukrainian republics.
A Sovietization propaganda poster addressed to the Western Ukrainian population. The Ukrainian text reads: "Electors of the working people! Vote for the joining of Western Ukraine with Soviet Ukraine, for a united, free and thriving Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Lets forever eliminate the border between Western and Soviet Ukraine. Long Live the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic!"
A Sovietization propaganda poster addressed to the Western Ukrainian population. The Ukrainian text reads: "Electors of the working people! Vote for the joining of Western Ukraine with Soviet Ukraine, for a united, free and thriving Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Lets forever eliminate the border between Western and Soviet Ukraine. Long Live the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic!"

On 26 October 1939, "elections" to Byelorussian and Ukrainian assemblies were held, to give the annexation an appearance of validity.[i] The Belarusians and Ukrainians in Poland had been increasingly alienated by the Polonization policies of the Polish government and its repression of their separatist movements, so they felt little loyalty towards the Polish state.[49][48] Not all Belarusians and Ukrainians, however, trusted the Soviet regime responsible for the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33.[41] In practice, the poor generally welcomed the Soviets, and the elites tended to join the opposition, despite supporting the reunification itself.[48][50]

The Soviets quickly introduced Sovietization policies in Western Byelorussia and Western Ukraine, including compulsory collectivization of the whole region. In the process, they ruthlessly broke up political parties and public associations and imprisoned or executed their leaders as "enemies of the people".[41] The authorities even suppressed the anti-Polish Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which had actively resisted the Polish regime since the 1920s; despite their change of overlord, Ukrainian nationalists continued to aim for an independent, undivided Ukrainian state.[51][50] The unifications of 1939 were nevertheless a decisive event in the history of Ukraine and Belarus, because they produced two republics which eventually achieved independence in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union.[52] Orest Subtelny summed up the historical significance of the Ukrainian reunification:

Since 1654, when the tsars began steadily to extend their control over Ukraine, Ukrainians had lived in two distinct worlds: one ruled by the Russians and the other by Poles or Austrians. As a result of the Second World War, the East/West Ukrainian dichotomy finally ceased to exist, at least on the political level. The process of amalgamation—of unification of two long-separated branches of the Ukrainian people—was not only a major aspect of the post-war period, but an event of epochal significance in the history of Ukraine.[53]
Censorship

Soviet censors later suppressed many details of the 1939 invasion and its aftermath.[54] The Politburo had from the first called the operation a "liberation campaign", and later Soviet statements and publications never wavered from that line.[55] On 30 November 1939, Stalin stated that it was not Germany who had attacked France and England but France and England who had attacked Germany;[56] and the following March, Molotov claimed that Germany had tried to make peace and been turned down by "Anglo-French imperialists".[o] All subsequent Soviet governments denied that there had ever been a secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact; but when the document was "found" in the Soviet archives in 1989, the truth was finally acknowledged.[7] Censorship was also applied in the People's Republic of Poland, to preserve the image of "Polish-Soviet friendship" promoted by the two communist governments. Official policy allowed only accounts of the 1939 campaign that portrayed it as a reunification of the Belarusian and Ukrainian peoples and a liberation of the Polish people from "oligarchic capitalism”. The authorities strongly discouraged any further study or teaching on the subject.[27][13] However, various underground publications (bibuła) addressed the issue,[31] as did other media, such as the 1982 protest song of Jacek Kaczmarski (Ballada wrześniowa).[57]"

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)
pics: http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/en/23/211/September_17_1939__Soviet_aggression_on_Poland.htm l

Chevan
09-17-2007, 08:09 AM
Damn mate ;)
If the Soviets made a stopid mistake to take back the EVIL Western Ukrainians Nationalist who should now fight against the Soviet ( instead of to continie kill the poles) - does it the reason to repeat EVERY ear in our forum and copy the Whole WIKI pages in here?;)
What is this - polish national hobby? To remind the world who is the most IMPORTAINT state in the Eastern Europe?;)
If Stalin was so Idiot in the 1939 to "join" the Western Ukrain with UPA ( the most brutal organisatin) - does it mean that i personaly have to excuse for him?
If so ..... i/m sorry mate:)
Cheers.

Chevan
09-17-2007, 08:16 AM
Of the 13.5 million civilians living in the newly annexed territories, Poles were the largest single ethnic group; but Belarusians and Ukrainians together made up over 50% of the population.

Damn again ......
Mate how many time more repeat - there WERE NEVER the polish majiority in the Western Ukraine and Belorussia DESPITE of the harsh Policy of Polonisation in 1921-1939.Never.
The polish population WERE STILL minority among the Ukrainians -coz the victims of the Ethnic terror in Volun and Galicia were the POLISH. The ukrainian population had a absolute superiority- that's why the Poles were practically FULLY annihilated in ther in 1943-44. They simply was not able to resist agains MORE numerical Ukrain nationalists force.

Cheers.

1PUK
09-17-2007, 04:32 PM
does it the reason to repeat EVERY ear in our forum


It is surprising that people 'forget/don't know' the role of the Soviet Union at the start of WW2.

Lexa
09-18-2007, 09:32 AM
The Poles have any right to write about these events as much as they wish. I think the Russian participants should better keep silence here, as soon as they can't write anything adequate to the situation.

Personally I wish to express my shame for what's happened 68 years ago and my sympathy to the relatives of victims.

Egorka
09-18-2007, 10:01 AM
I also wish to express the sympaty to the relatives of victims. I also have sympaty because 1939 was the first step that later involved Poland into that failed geopolitical historical experiment called "construction of Communism".
Simple people were and unfortunately will be the hostages of the political games.

Though I whould like to say that the history is neither simple nor black-n-white. But I say it only becasue we are in historical forum and supposedly should approach this topics with as little emmotions as possible.

Kovalski
09-18-2007, 10:47 AM
Thanks guys,

let me say, on behalf of Poles, we really appreciate this.

Chevan, I'm sorry for the wiki, I know it is not a absolutely reliable source of info.
But it was worth of it, because I could read you again ;)




Though I whould like to say that the history is neither simple or black-n-white.

Igor, believe it or not, but our prime minister said in his expose: "[...] nobody will never persuade us, that black is black and white is white [...]" ;)

Once again, thanks friends.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Chevan
09-20-2007, 01:35 AM
Thanks guys,

let me say, on behalf of Poles, we really appreciate this.

Chevan, I'm sorry for the wiki, I know it is not a absolutely reliable source of info.
But it was worth of it, because I could read you again ;)
i
Well mate if to open periodically the thread about that is only the way to read me again:)
:D

I want just to add that it so sadly that the Polish gov refused the treaty with the USSR in summer 1939- in this way we together with France could creat the collective sustem of defence agains the Germans and possibly saved our states form the such great victims in this war.
However all to the best, althouth this sounds sunically....

1PUK
09-20-2007, 06:28 PM
I want just to add that it so sadly that the Polish gov refused the treaty with the USSR in summer 1939-

Of course the Soviet actions in 1944 onwards should that the Soviets could be 'trusted'.

A few examples :-

Not allowing allied planes to land in Soviet held territory (until very late) during the Warsaw Uprising which would have enabled the Poles to be supplied more easily.

NKVD killing home army members 1944 onwards.

The promise of free elections in Poland. (which never happened)

Chevan
09-24-2007, 03:47 AM
Oh my good.
Sorry Kovalski, but i have to bagin it again.

Of course the Soviet actions in 1944 onwards should that the Soviets could be 'trusted'.

Well the Britain&France could be "trusted" , right PUK?
As it was showed in 1-17 september of 1939.;)


A few examples :-

Not allowing allied planes to land in Soviet held territory (until very late) during the Warsaw Uprising which would have enabled the Poles to be supplied more easily.

Sure Stalin did not provide the Britains the airfields- was he obligated to help the anti-soviet uprising? Besides it was pure adventure ( althouth the pole heroically fought and neitralized the whole garmen army for the mounth)
Coz his is quite naive to think the Warsw uprising could be succesfull without interaction with Red Army.


NKVD killing home army members 1944 onwards.
But do not forget that the AK attacked the Red Army too...
according the documents of the NKVD reports http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/terra_poland/04.html
there were killed the 277 and wounded 94 of soldiers and Officers of Red Amry by he AK groups that was not subordinated by the order to stop the fight in 19 feb 1945.
Sure it is sadly that the AK was not directed to the front( as AL was) to fight with Germans.


The promise of free elections in Poland. (which never happened)
Well may be you want to ask this the Gomulko - the first Polish communist leader who suppressed hard the polish movenments..

Cheers.

Chevan
09-24-2007, 04:19 AM
The promise of free elections in Poland. (which never happened)

And almost forgot;)
Were the free election in the Italy, France , Holland and Grees where the position the Communist who headed the anti-fascist Resistance were very strong.And they definatelly should enter to the national govenment power structures, but they were banned by the "democrats".
And were the free election in the Southern Eastern Asia after the "liberation" the US/UK troops who aimed to install back the colonian system?
The rules to install the OWN gov was for everybody. Not just for the USSR PUK.

1PUK
09-24-2007, 05:33 PM
Well the Britain&France could be "trusted"


I am not making comparisons. This is about whether the Poles could have trusted the Soviet government.

You made the stament:


I want just to add that it so sadly that the Polish gov refused the treaty with the USSR in summer 1939-

I was indicating to you that the reason that the Polish government did not make a treaty was that they did not trust the Soviets and the Soviets actions towards the end of the war and after showed the mistrust was valid.



Sure Stalin did not provide the Britains the airfields- was he obligated to help the anti-soviet uprising?


The Warsaw Uprising was anti-nazi. They were fighting the nazis not the Soviets.



Well may be you want to ask this the Gomulko - the first Polish communist leader who suppressed hard the polish movenments..


The Soviet backed Gomulka.

Egorka
09-25-2007, 06:45 AM
The Warsaw Uprising was anti-nazi. They were fighting the nazis not the Soviets.

Common, 1PUK, everyone understands that the time and the way the Warsaw uprising was organised was aimed more agains the Soviet advance than Germans. Everyone can see this. And I do understand Polish goverment in UK in this sense. But to say that it was aimed at Germans and not at all against the approaching Soviets is uterly wrong.


Regards
Igor

Kovalski
09-25-2007, 09:47 AM
Common, 1PUK, everyone understands that the time and the way the Warsaw uprising was organised was aimed more agains the Soviet advance than Germans. Everyone can see this. And I do understand Polish goverment in UK in this sense. But to say that it was aimed at Germans and not at all against the approaching Soviets is uterly wrong.


Regards
Igor

The main military aim of uprising was to force the German units to withdraw from the city of Warsaw.
The main political aim of uprising was to demonstrate to Stalin that there still are legal polish authorities in territory of Poland, and that Poland is not a out-of-government area and that any attempt of installing communist puppet-government will be unlawful.

Pozdrawiam,

Kovalski

1PUK
09-25-2007, 03:34 PM
Egorka

I said :-
The Warsaw Uprising was anti-nazi. They were fighting the nazis not the Soviets.

Which is not what you said/implied that I had written.


The main military aim of uprising was to force the German units to withdraw from the city of Warsaw.
The main political aim of uprising was to demonstrate to Stalin that there still are legal polish authorities in territory of Poland, and that Poland is not a out-of-government area and that any attempt of installing communist puppet-government will be unlawful.

Pozdrawiam,

Kovalski
I think Kovalski has explained it beautifully.



Sure it is sadly that the AK was not directed to the front( as AL was) to fight with Germans.


Chevan implies that the AK did not fight the Nazis.

It can’t be both ways.

If the Poles fight the nazis, it is anti-Soviet. If they don’t fight the nazis then they are condemned for not fighting.

It is clear that the AK Poles did fight the nazis.

People seem to forget, as well as the initial fighting in 1939 the Poles still fought on against the nazis, sabotage, gathering intelligence etc. I’m sure some of the sabotage was even against trains that were taking supplies to the Eastern front to be used against the Soviets by the nazis. Also when the time came Polish units rose up.
I’ve read, forget which site it was, that about 120,000 AK soldiers were fighting from the Carpathians to Vilnius and the Lower Bug River. AK units captured 7 cities on their own and 11 together with the Soviets.

There is talk about Poles being anti-Soviet, lets not forget that some of the Soviet actions were anti-Polish : -

After the battle of Vilnius (July 1944) NKVD detachments surrounded the Poles, disarmed and interned them.

Stalin ordered disarming of the AK, and the representatives of the Underground State that came out of the hiding. At least 20 to 30 thousand people were deported to penal colonies in the interior of the Soviet Union, most of them have never returned

Egorka
09-26-2007, 04:01 AM
Ok, thank you, that is what I ment that the strategical long term goal was directed against the USSR influense. And that is OK.
And the long term goals were the only ones that counted at that point of time as the fate of Germany was clear to every politician.
It is just that some people forget that AK leaders were not only patriots but politicians too, were they not?

By the way, 1PUK, how was Vilnius liberated from the Germans? I am asking just to keep our discussion going. ;) I guess Kovalski knows why I am asking.... ;)

Chevan
09-26-2007, 05:01 AM
Chevan implies that the AK did not fight the Nazis.

Wrong PUK.
I mean that after the due to lack of warsaw uprising the many of the AK member surrendered to the Nazy. At the same time the AL continie to fight against Gemrnas but with Red Army.I just think that it sadly that so great number of AK soldiers capitulated when they proved they could effectively fight with Nazy.
And i never implies that AK did not fight against Nazy.
They did, and very well in some period.
However we all clearly understand here that AK was not AIMED to fought together with Red Army and demonstratively ignored the any interactions with Red Army in 1944-45.
Except the Warsaw uprising where the AK command naivelly thought the Red Army must save the guerrials inspite of the inevitable great soviet casualties.


If the Poles fight the nazis, it is anti-Soviet. If they don’t fight the nazis then they are condemned for not fighting.

It is clear that the AK Poles did fight the nazis.

People seem to forget, as well as the initial fighting in 1939 the Poles still fought on against the nazis, sabotage, gathering intelligence etc. I’m sure some of the sabotage was even against trains that were taking supplies to the Eastern front to be used against the Soviets by the nazis. Also when the time came Polish units rose up.
I’ve read, forget which site it was, that about 120,000 AK soldiers were fighting from the Carpathians to Vilnius and the Lower Bug River. AK units captured 7 cities on their own and 11 together with the Soviets.

There is talk about Poles being anti-Soviet, lets not forget that some of the Soviet actions were anti-Polish : -

After the battle of Vilnius (July 1944) NKVD detachments surrounded the Poles, disarmed and interned them.

And what armed AK did in Vilnius if the Soviets already has liberated the city?
If they allies - please joine to the Red Army . If no - they could not be allowed to walk in rear of Red Army with wearpon.
And do not tell us PUK that allies would not do the same when they meet the hostitle armed forces.


Stalin ordered disarming of the AK, and the representatives of the Underground State that came out of the hiding. At least 20 to 30 thousand people were deported to penal colonies in the interior of the Soviet Union, most of them have never returned
Right , but look adove.
If the AK was at least neitral who could they kill 277 of soviet soldiers?
And what "penal colonies" do you imply?

Cheers.

1PUK
09-26-2007, 05:44 PM
Chevan & Egorka

You are missing the point.

My intention was to show using some of the actions of the Soviets in 1944 (which were anti-Polish) and beyond the end of the war (e.g. installing a puppet government), that the Poles could not trust the Soviets enough to make a treaty before 1939.

Furthermore, the Soviets were coming not only to fight the nazis but they intended to subjugate the country they ‘liberated’ and install a puppet communist government. That is one of the reasons why they met with hostility. Not to mention the Soviet invasion of Poland 17th September 1939, just in case you had forgotten.

If the Soviets had defeated the nazis in the countries along the way to Germany and captured Berlin etc and then after the end of the war returned home without the intention of installing puppet governments in the countries that they had ‘liberated’, then they would have been hailed as heroes without any reservations, there would be no question of ‘anti-Soviet’ and we would not be having this discussion.

Before you try to say that I am implying that the Soviet soldier was not a hero that is not what I mean, because they were.

Further, the Warsaw Uprising would still have happened even if the army pushing the nazis back had been friendly and not intending to install a puppet government.
Also, the Warsaw Uprising would most probably have succeeded because it would have been properly supported by a friendly army.

Chevan
09-28-2007, 05:32 AM
Chevan & Egorka

You are missing the point.

My intention was to show using some of the actions of the Soviets in 1944 (which were anti-Polish) and beyond the end of the war (e.g. installing a puppet government), that the Poles could not trust the Soviets enough to make a treaty before 1939.

No PUK we clearly know you politically biased poin.
Firstly the the events of the 1939 LOGICALLY could not be related with the 1944;)
So the reason of the lack of trust in Polish-Soviet relations befor the 1939 was not the "some action of the soviets".But pure conflict of interests of both gov.
But if the Stalin and France CLEARLY inderstand the Danger of Nazy Germany in the 1938- then the Poles simply ignored and continie to believe the Nazy "never will attack";)


Furthermore, the Soviets were coming not only to fight the nazis but they intended to subjugate the country they ‘liberated’ and install a puppet communist government. That is one of the reasons why they met with hostility. Not to mention the Soviet invasion of Poland 17th September 1939, just in case you had forgotten.

Soviet invasion to the Poland?
What do you mean - the western Ukraine? Was it Poland - do not tell us fary tells and do not anger the our ukrainian friends in here;)
It was a Ukrainian lands that were contemporary occuped by the Poland since the 1921 after the collapse of the Russian Imperia and lost of the polish-soviet war by bolshevics.
It's not strange for you that the UPA fought in the "Poland" ?
And the fact the Soviets helped the POLISH communists to take the power after was- does it mean the Polish gov was the puppet?
I/m strongly doubt- the polish communist Gomulko enough hard suppressed the own poles and even organised the own deportation of ukrainians ( Operation Vistla) even not informing the Soviet side.


If the Soviets had defeated the nazis in the countries along the way to Germany and captured Berlin etc and then after the end of the war returned home without the intention of installing puppet governments in the countries that they had ‘liberated’, then they would have been hailed as heroes without any reservations, there would be no question of ‘anti-Soviet’ and we would not be having this discussion.

Perhaps, but this is just a part of true PUK.
Yo clearly know that not ONLY soviets has its zone of influence (i.e. to install the friendly gov) . In the conferences of Allies ( Tehrain, Yalta , Potsdam and ets.) THERE were a COMMON agreements for :WHOM,Where and HOW the the gov in the liberated states were established.
So if you have a questions - please?
If the Stalin allies would not presented Stalin the Eastern Europe- he could demand to withdraw the allies troops from Western Europe ( Franace, Greese, Italy where the communist resistence were too strong) and Asian colonies where the communits national forces rised in the power.
May be the Eastern Europe did not trouble them so much like the Comride Stalin;)
Anyway they ALL were responsible for the post-war division.


Further, the Warsaw Uprising would still have happened even if the army pushing the nazis back had been friendly and not intending to install a puppet government.
Also, the Warsaw Uprising would most probably have succeeded because it would have been properly supported by a friendly army.
So why they did not ask the "friendly army" for that?
Why they did not asked the Britain and USA?