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Chevan
09-16-2007, 05:10 AM
Hollo folks.
I found an interesting post of our new american member Strangy that seem for me is the sort of the Revisionism.

well who is to say that the German army was "evil". I agree with saying Hitler was evil. But the German army, they were fighting against Bolshevisms, to them it was freeing Europe from the chains of the communist system, and as German armored columns came into contact with many small villages in eastern Europe they were greeted as the heroes, they thought they were the heroes Hitler and Goebbels had claimed they would be. And for much of the occupation in some parts, moral was high among the local inhabitants. So no, the German army wasn't evil. They were normal soldiers just like when we thought we were "Liberating" and "De-Nazifing" Germany in the post war years.
Holy true.;)
Indeed the Germans army wasn't evil coz they fought against the Bolshevism.
And this wasn't a Germans army who made a henocide toward the civil low race population (" bolshevics" who were suspected in the symphaties for partisans and Jews who was suspected to be the Jews)) in the Ukraine, Belorussia and Russia. Sure it was just Hitler with friends;)
And its seems you are fogetting tha fact that not only the GErmans army was good , but also and Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine was also GOOD.
The Luftwaffe bombed the Britain who supported the Bolsevics by lend lease and Krigsmarine sinked the US transports in Atlantic that also supported the Soviets by the LEnd lease.
So i think in this prospect you dear Strangy would not deny the obvious fact that not ONLY the Germans army , but also and the Japanes Imperor army was a good, coz they fought against the White Colonialism in Asia, right?
Sure the Japanes IMPEROR was evil, but not the Japane Army and Population coz they Believed they fought for a GOOD aim- for freedom of Asia from the "evil" western Colonian States.
And many of the Asian colonian states and its NAtional leaders ( for instance in Birma) have meeted the Japanes as a "heroes" coz they promised them the Independence;)
So the moral is next:The Both Germany and Japane was a good except the two lunatic idiots Hitler and Imperor.
Firsts save the Europe and world from the Jewish Bolshevism. Second - saved the Asia from the White Colonialism and unfair discrimination of the yellow race.
What do you think about?

Strangy
09-16-2007, 06:32 AM
well, i see the imperial army very different from the western armies of Europe. I dont see them as evil, yet, they were by far the most "fanatical" in the sense they would fight to the death no matter what, the Bushido code, which brainwashed the entire imperial military forces. They were not evil, but, they're way of thinking was much different, and there treatment of prisoners due to the bushido code was also way more harsh then any nazi pow camp. All i know, id have much rather fought in europe then the pacific. There were no rules of engagment, it was kill or be killed, fight or die, and if you surrendered you most likely were killed anyways. But then again, who are we to say whats evil and whats not?? Do we go by the biblical version of evil, or the morality issue of evil. Thats, well, a personal choice all must make.

Drake
09-16-2007, 07:04 AM
Good/Bad is imho a completely nonsensical concept when it comes to armies. They are supposed to kill people for the interests of their rulers. Hitler was one of the biggest assholes in world history and the Wehrmacht was his instrument, so they definatly served an evil purpose. But for example when it comes to the red army you are already in a dilemma. They fought in defence of their country, which is a "good" cause in that context, but served another contender for biggest ******* ever and were instrument in his aggressive political ambitions as well (winter war for example). The soviets suppressed millions of peoples for decades thanks to that outcome, though it was probably better than the variant with a victorious hitler, but I wouldn't call a victorious soviet russia a good result for eastern europe.
So would you call the red army a good one or a bad one? Even the western allies didn't fight for "good" or against "evil". In both world wars it was mere power politics which kept them fighting or got them there in the first place.
But I'm pretty sure most of the young russians, american, english or german soldiers who bled or died were good people so there you could call the armies good again.

Chevan
09-16-2007, 09:07 AM
They were not evil, but, they're way of thinking was much different, and there treatment of prisoners due to the bushido code was also way more harsh then any nazi pow camp.

Really?
And did you hear something about mass executions of Soviet pows and conditions in the Nazy Concentration Camps in the East?
I/m doubt you ever hear something - coz you'd never say that japanes were more harsh toward the prisoners.



All i know, id have much rather fought in europe then the pacific. There were no rules of engagment, it was kill or be killed, fight or die, and if you surrendered you most likely were killed anyways. But then again, who are we to say whats evil and whats not?? Do we go by the biblical version of evil, or the morality issue of evil. Thats, well, a personal choice all must make.
If you think that in the East the war with Nazy had the RULES - you are deeply mistaken. Nazy killed even the woman and children simply as the special action for the suppressing of the partisans.
Bushido code was at least the code.
Howevee in the East the Nazy killed without any code- simply coz they thought the peoples around are the low race.
Also in the East front there was a special order of Wermach that forced to shot the any soviet POW who "refuse to subordinate" ( in practice it means they simply could not work being the wounded or ill).
In the 1941-42 about 300 000 of the Soviets pows died from famine - coz Gemrnans did not wish to feed them.

So if you think you know what was the rules of war - just look to the Eastern front.

Cheers.

Chevan
09-16-2007, 09:27 AM
Good/Bad is imho a completely nonsensical concept when it comes to armies. They are supposed to kill people for the interests of their rulers. Hitler was one of the biggest assholes in world history and the Wehrmacht was his instrument, so they definatly served an evil purpose. But for example when it comes to the red army you are already in a dilemma. They fought in defence of their country, which is a "good" cause in that context, but served another contender for biggest ******* ever and were instrument in his aggressive political ambitions as well (winter war for example). The soviets suppressed millions of peoples for decades thanks to that outcome, though it was probably better than the variant with a victorious hitler, but I wouldn't call a victorious soviet russia a good result for eastern europe.
So would you call the red army a good one or a bad one? Even the western allies didn't fight for "good" or against "evil". In both world wars it was mere power politics which kept them fighting or got them there in the first place.
But I'm pretty sure most of the young russians, american, english or german soldiers who bled or died were good people so there you could call the armies good again.

Very reasonable approach , thanks Drake.
Sure the red army wasn't so good for the Eastern Europe as for me and ny countryments ;)
However not only the Soviets had its sphear of influence in the Eastern Europe but also and Western European stanes - their colonies.
And sure them all had its own "winter wars" in different time.
So there is no good/bad armies indeed.
There is ONLY the political interests. So to say the the German army was good coz they fought against the Bolshevics is foolish.

Egorka
09-16-2007, 10:10 AM
In the 1941-42 about 300 000 of the Soviets pows died from famine - coz Gemrnans did not wish to feed them.

Chevan,

Only in December 1941 died 500.000 Soviet POW in the german camps.

Here is the quote from the directive of the German ministry of "War Economy" writen in February 1942:

«Today's problems with work power whould not happen if we would had involved the soviet POW in due time. We had 3,9 million in our disposal. Now we have only 1,1 million left. Only in December 1941 died half a million.»


Regards
Igor

Chevan
09-16-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes Egorka sorry.
My mistake, sure you right.
I just want to show for the some of our american friends what does mean the "War without rules"- coz they mistakelly think that the japanes terror was the worst.
Indeed the putfull Japanes with his Bushido code even could not dream to kill as much POWs and peoples as the NAzy did in the East by the most brutal way.
For instance one of the lovely Nazy method was to bolt the people( jews and pows) in granary and burn them alive.
The methods that used the special punisment units like the SS groups and police battalions were even worst. The tupical "practice" was to kill 50-100 of "communists" ( i.e. the peasants , woman and children) for every 1 killed german soldier by the partisans.
So i/m really doubt that the dear Strangy will so glad to fight against the Germans in the East;)

Cheers.

Egorka
09-16-2007, 02:22 PM
Yes Egorka sorry.
My mistake, sure you right.
Just making sure Strangy gets the point. :)

bwing55543
09-16-2007, 02:24 PM
Good/Bad is imho a completely nonsensical concept when it comes to armies. They are supposed to kill people for the interests of their rulers. Hitler was one of the biggest assholes in world history and the Wehrmacht was his instrument, so they definatly served an evil purpose. But for example when it comes to the red army you are already in a dilemma. They fought in defence of their country, which is a "good" cause in that context, but served another contender for biggest ******* ever and were instrument in his aggressive political ambitions as well (winter war for example). The soviets suppressed millions of peoples for decades thanks to that outcome, though it was probably better than the variant with a victorious hitler, but I wouldn't call a victorious soviet russia a good result for eastern europe.
So would you call the red army a good one or a bad one? Even the western allies didn't fight for "good" or against "evil". In both world wars it was mere power politics which kept them fighting or got them there in the first place.
But I'm pretty sure most of the young russians, american, english or german soldiers who bled or died were good people so there you could call the armies good again.


Even with our grunts, I remember reading about a US Marine who was trying to dig the gold out of a Japanese soldier's teeth while he was still alive. The Marine couldn't get to the gold, so he cut the Japanese's mouth, Black Dalia style to get to it. Again, he didn't kill the Japanese grunt before doing it. Then again, who could blame him? It was because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor that he's getting sent to the Pacific so he could have the possibility of having his guts blown out.

Locking Japanese-Americans into internment (which I think is a euphemism for concentration) camps wasn't exactly a saintly gesture on the part of the American government either.

I agree that it is better that the Allies won and Hitler didn't, but I don't believe either side was really full of saints. The Nazis who committed the war crimes always tried to save their own skins by saying "I was following orders".

WW2 is the perfect example of how history is written by the winners. If Nazi Germany won and they took over the world like Hitler dreamed, we would probably have text books about how evil Winston Churchill or FDR was.

Egorka
09-16-2007, 03:33 PM
Even with our grunts, I remember reading about a US Marine who was trying to dig the gold out of a Japanese soldier's teeth while he was still alive. The Marine couldn't get to the gold, so he cut the Japanese's mouth, Black Dalia style to get to it. Again, he didn't kill the Japanese grunt before doing it. Then again, who could blame him? It was because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor that he's getting sent to the Pacific so he could have the possibility of having his guts blown out.

I could blame him. It was not because of Pearl Harbor - it was because that Marine was nuts! Nothing can justify cuting someones face with a knife for a gold tooth.

bwing55543
09-16-2007, 05:42 PM
I could blame him. It was not because of Pearl Harbor - it was because that Marine was nuts! Nothing can justify cuting someones face with a knife for a gold tooth.

Again, since history is written by the winners, things like that get seldom talked about because most history books are concerned with telling the reader about how evil the Japanese were.

bt3au
09-16-2007, 07:42 PM
there are two ways of looking at this particular question, if you look at the German army as a whole as a state instrument, undoubtedly it served an evil regime, if you look at the individual soldier (except for the SS who were pretty much fanatics), the individual soldier was doing his job not good or evil just mostly trying to stay alive and like any soldier in any army having to obey orders however morally repugnant, put yourselves in their shoes, you are part of a unit you have grown closer than a brother to these guys, the unit you belong to has been fighting (and dieing) under extreme circumstances you are no longer the innocent kid just out of school, you have seen and heard things that no one should have to, you get shot at from a village maybe one of your "brothers" has been killed, its not hard under those circumstances to see how the village isnt treated according to the rules of war. In the east the war was fought without the normal rules, because of Nazi Ideology that held that slavs were untermensch so what I described above would have happened a lot "easier" than in the west, its not surprising that the Soviets replied in kind.
Atrocity begets Atrocity

bt3au
09-16-2007, 07:54 PM
Again, since history is written by the winners, things like that get seldom talked about because most history books are concerned with telling the reader about how evil the Japanese were.

you have to think about the attitude that was common to the allies fighting the Japanese, most soldiers dont fight passionately, they just want to live and have grandkids, after several hard campaigns against the Japanese fanatics, who would rather die than surrender, the allied soldiers pretty much didnt have any of the compassion for an enemy once he was wounded or defeated, mainly because even a wounded Japanese would still fight, like I have said Atrocity begets Atrocity, after seeing what the Japanese did to wounded allied soldiers, allied soldiers dont treat the Japanese as Humans anymore just as vermin to be eradicated.
After aussie soldiers found their mates tied to trees and used as bayonet practice, what do you think they did to the Japanese they fought against? no mercy

Kato
09-17-2007, 03:00 AM
Chevan evidently tries to prove that the Soviet Union of 1920 -1950s was a more human state that had nothing to do with genocides in conrtast to Nazi Germany. Is it because Bolsheviks killed the citizens of its own state while German Nazi concentrated their efforts on foreign nationals in other countries? The most amazing thing that both the Soviets and German Nazi genocided the population of the USSR. The only difference was that the overwhelming majority of the victims of Soviet terror did not even contemplate about resistace to Bolsheviks while Germans waged a war against a foreign state and faced extensive partisan movement. Nevertheless the Soviets certainly outperformed Germans in genociding certain nations in the USSR.

Egorka
09-17-2007, 04:43 AM
Again, since history is written by the winners, things like that get seldom talked about because most history books are concerned with telling the reader about how evil the Japanese were.

That is true.

Egorka
09-17-2007, 04:48 AM
Chevan evidently tries to prove that the Soviet Union of 1920 -1950s was a more human state that had nothing to do with genocides in conrtast to Nazi Germany. Nevertheless the Soviets certainly outperformed Germans in genociding certain nations in the USSR.

Kato,

How do you define genocide? Are the deportations genocide?
Which nations were genocideed more in the USSR? Crimean Tartars? Ukrainians? Chechens?

Regards
Igor

Kato
09-17-2007, 05:27 AM
The term "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959), a Polish-Jewish legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots γένος genos (Greek for family, tribe or race) and -cide (Latin - occido - to massacre).

In 1933, Lemkin made a presentation to the Legal Council of the League of Nations conference on international criminal law in Madrid, for which he prepared an essay on the Crime of Barbarity as a crime against international law. The concept of the crime, which later evolved into the idea of genocide, was based mostly on the experience of the Assyrians[1] massacred in Iraq on 11 August 1933. The event in Iraq reminded him of earlier similar events of the Armenian genocide during World War I. He presented his first proposal to outlaw such 'acts of barbarism' to the Legal Council of the League of Nations in Madrid the same year. However, the proposal failed and his work incurred the disapproval of the Polish government, which was at the time pursuing a policy of conciliation with Nazi Germany. [2]

In 1944, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace published Lemkin's most important work, entitled Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, in the United States. This book included an extensive legal analysis of German rule in countries occupied by Nazi Germany during the course of World War II, along with the definition of the term genocide[3]. Lemkin's idea of genocide as an offense against international law was widely accepted by the international community and was one of the legal bases of the Nuremberg Trials (The indictment of the 24 Nazi leaders included in Count 3, that all the defendants "conducted deliberate and systematic genocide – namely, the extermination of racial and national groups..."[4]). Lemkin presented a draft resolution for a Genocide Convention treaty to a number of countries in an effort to persuade them to sponsor the resolution. With the support of the United States, the resolution was placed before the General Assembly for a consideration. Lemkin said about the definition of genocide in its original adoption for international law at the Geneva Conventions:

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.

Kato
09-17-2007, 05:55 AM
removed

Chevan
09-17-2007, 05:56 AM
Chevan evidently tries to prove that the Soviet Union of 1920 -1950s was a more human state that had nothing to do with genocides in conrtast to Nazi Germany. Is it because Bolsheviks killed the citizens of its own state while German Nazi concentrated their efforts on foreign nationals in other countries? The most amazing thing that both the Soviets and German Nazi genocided the population of the USSR. The only difference was that the overwhelming majority of the victims of Soviet terror did not even contemplate about resistace to Bolsheviks while Germans waged a war against a foreign state and faced extensive partisan movement. Nevertheless the Soviets certainly outperformed Germans in genociding certain nations in the USSR.
Oh dear Kato coming back;)
When and where did you see i justify the Bolshevics murders ?Who were 90% of non-russians;)
You are simply the nut that used the Boslshevics terror ( the victims of which were the MAINLY the my own RIUSSIAN people) in order to justify the own ukrainian Ethhnical-clearings and mass killing of over 200 000+ of non-ukrainian civiliance in the Volun by the brutal pro-fascist UPA "partisans".
May be this "resistance for the Soviets of the victims of soviet terror" do you mean?
This stopid Nazy demagogy to justify the ethnic terror by the previous "Bolshevics crimes"- and lovely fascist method to kill the people as for the "retribution for this".
So this slobbery tells about Nazy regime that was more "Human" toward the Ukrainins and Russians is the neo-nazy propoganda and revisionism. This is insulting of the memory of the 1+ millions of Ukrainians who fought and died in struggle of Nazy with Red Army.

Chevan
09-17-2007, 06:01 AM
Ukrainians, Baltic nations, some Islamic nations of the Soviet Union

Do not liestem this UPA nazy admirer Egorka.
He just want to prove that the Western Ukrainian henocide ( killing the 200 000+ poles by the most brutal way including the children) was not so GREAT EVIL as the deportation of the 300 000 Chechens ( and 200 00 Ingushs) to the Kazahstan and Suberia.
The tupical nazy-sort humanism;)

Kato
09-17-2007, 06:34 AM
Oh dear Kato coming back
When and where did you see i justify the Bolshevics murders ?Who were 90% of non-russians

Yeah they were aliens from Mars.



You are simply the nut that used the Boslshevics terror ( the victims of which were the MAINLY the my own RIUSSIAN people

Here just one example of Bolsheviks terror.

The Ukrainian famine (1932-1933), or Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор), was one of the largest national catastrophes in modern history with direct loss of human life in the range of many millions (estimates vary). While the famine in Ukraine was a part of a wider famine that also affected other regions of the USSR, the name Holodomor is specifically applied to the events that took place in territories populated by ethnic Ukrainians. The word comes from the Ukrainian words holod, ‘hunger’, and mor, ‘plague’,[1] possibly from the expression moryty holodom, ‘to inflict death by hunger’.


According to estimates[45] about 81.3% of the victims of this artificially created hunger in the whole USSR were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.4% Jews and 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and Crimean Tatars became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[47] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years.

Chevan
09-17-2007, 06:48 AM
Oh really so it was a henocide of the Ukrainians?
And who did make this- the alliens from the Mars?



http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 1%80#.D0.9E.D1.88.D0.B8.D0.B1.D0.BA.D0.B8_.D0.B2_. D0.BF.D1.83.D0.B1.D0.BB.D0.B8.D0.BA.D0.B0.D1.86.D0 .B8.D1.8F.D1.85
Как на Украине, так и за ее пределами не достигнуто согласие относительно событий, обозначенных как Голодомор.

Существуют альтернативные к точке зрения о Голодоморе как геноциде мнения:

Ответственность за Голодомор на Украине несут в значительной степени украинские власти генеральный секретарь ЦК КП(б)У Станислав Косиор, председатель СНК Украинской ССР Влас Чубарь, председатель ГПУ Украинской ССР Балицкий, председатель Госплана Украинской ССР Николай Скрыпник.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both in the Ukraine and beyond its limits is not achieved agreement relative to events, designating as Golodomor.
There are sight about Golodomor as genocide alternative to the point of the opinion: Responsibility for Golodomor in the Ukraine bear to a considerable degree Ukrainian authorities - Secretary General CK CPU Stanislav Kosior, chairman of SNK of Ukrainian SSR Vlas Chubar, chairman OF THE GPU of Ukrainian SSR Balitskiy, the chairman of the Gosplan of Ukrainian SSR Nikolai Skrypnik.

So as we could see the own Ukrainians were responsible for the Holodomore.
Just one interesting fact in the Kuban where i am living there Holodomore was too in 1932-33. However the victims in Kuban was much less then in Ukraine. Although the negative conditions were the same but the More tragical death toll in Ukraine was explained by the own Ukrain communists "activity".
So it was guilt not ONLY the Stalin but the own Ukrain communists, Kato.

Panzerknacker
09-17-2007, 07:00 AM
Good/Bad is imho a completely nonsensical concept when it comes to armies


Amen, this remember the topic "Brave men"

Chevan
09-17-2007, 07:21 AM
According to estimates[45] about 81.3% of the victims of this artificially created hunger in the whole USSR were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.4% Jews and 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and Crimean Tatars became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[47] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years.

That's right - the Ukrainians suffered the evil Ukrainian communists realised the "own" brutal version of Collectivisation.
There were never so great death rate except the Ukraine, although the collectivisation has bagan in all the agricaltural USSR- in Volga region, Kuban , Ukrain , Belorussia and ets.

Kato
09-17-2007, 10:18 AM
You are simply the nut that used the Boslshevics terror ( the victims of which were the MAINLY the my own RIUSSIAN people) in order to justify the own ukrainian Ethhnical-clearings and mass killing of over 200 000+ of non-ukrainian civiliance in the Volun by the brutal pro-fascist UPA "partisans".

None of the states in the world or a reputable international organization including Nuremberg court have agreed that the Ukrainian Insurgent Army was pro-fascist and committed crimes against civil population. So this slander was left only for the interior usage in the USSR and now Russia.



He just want to prove that the Western Ukrainian henocide ( killing the 200 000+ poles by the most brutal way including the children) was not so GREAT EVIL as the deportation of the 300 000 Chechens ( and 200 00 Ingushs) to the Kazahstan and Suberia.

The genocide of Poles by UPA was invented by modern Polish Neo-Nazi who are persecuted by the official Polish authorities. Perhaps you want to joint them in a Polish prison?

The Soviet deportation of Ukrainians, Balts, Chechens, Ingushians and others was a genocide. Apparently now lots of people suppose that deportation is when a foreigner who don't have proper documents and is bought a ticket for a plane and accompanied to the airport by a few smiling policemen.

The Soviet deportation stands for the forceful resettlement of people of certain ethnicity to the unpopulated territories with extremely harsh climate conditions. As these people were allowed to take the minimum of personal belongings. They had to build their new houses and feed themselves on their own. Under such circumstances the death rate among such resettled persons in the first months approximated the one of German Dahau. By the way, the most of deported families composed of a mother, children and elderly people as most of men were recruited to the Red Army.

So as you see the Soviets outperformed Germans. While Germans spent resources on cocentration camps, communists have people killed by natural conditions and simultaneously colonized new territories in Siberia and Kazakhstan.

Kato
09-17-2007, 10:21 AM
So this slobbery tells about Nazy regime that was more "Human" toward the Ukrainins and Russians is the neo-nazy propoganda and revisionism.

I never said that Nazy regime that was more "Human". I said the the Soviets killed more Ukrainians than German Nazi.

Nickdfresh
09-17-2007, 10:28 AM
Again, since history is written by the winners, things like that get seldom talked about because most history books are concerned with telling the reader about how evil the Japanese were.

Unless they're Japanese textbooks - in which case they'll inform you how the Japanese were only interested in throwing off the imperialists' yoke, and setting up a sphere of greater cooperation in Asia as they made "advances" into China (which is really greater Japan occupied by foreign squatters). :)


Sometimes, history is "revised" by the losers, too...

Kato
09-17-2007, 10:41 AM
Posted by Chevan

So this slobbery tells about Nazy regime that was more "Human" toward the Ukrainins and Russians is the neo-nazy propoganda and revisionism.

I never said that Nazy regime that was more "Human". I said the Soviets killed more Ukrainians than German Nazi.



Posted by Chevan

This is insulting of the memory of the 1+ millions of Ukrainians who fought and died in struggle of Nazy with Red Army.

Yes, it is insulting that the Moscow regime was breaking all the records in the export of the confiscated Ukrainian grain and other food-stuffs to the Nazi Germany when millions of Ukrainians were dying from hunger.

It is insulting that Moscow organized another
artificial famine in the southern and eastern Ukraine in 1946. It was how Russians thanked millions of Ukrainians who fought and died in struggle against Nazy in the ranks of the Red Army and saved Europe from German slavery.
Only the Ukrainian central and western regions controlled by "pro-fascist" UPA managed to avoid hunger.

Nickdfresh
09-17-2007, 10:42 AM
Yes Egorka sorry.
My mistake, sure you right.
I just want to show for the some of our american friends what does mean the "War without rules"- coz they mistakelly think that the japanes terror was the worst.

Yes, the six-million-Chinese-murdered - the "comfort girls" that were raped to death, the farming villages that starved because they had all of their rice and grains stolen from them, and the citizens of Nanjing all faced gentler and kinder form of death from their benevolent Japanese "protectors." These of course were all lies anyway, just consult a Japanese textbook or ask a member of the Japanese gov't. They'll confirm how Japanese soldiers regularly distributed rice wine, chocolates, and flowers to their Asian brethren.


Indeed the putfull Japanes with his Bushido code even could not dream to kill as much POWs and peoples as the NAzy did in the East by the most brutal way.

Oh, actually they did. Most POWs held by Japan were emaciated and there were certainly plans to systematically execute ALL Allied prisoners upon the invasion of mainland Japan...


For instance one of the lovely Nazy method was to bolt the people( jews and pows) in granary and burn them alive.
The methods that used the special punisment units like the SS groups and police battalions were even worst. The tupical "practice" was to kill 50-100 of "communists" ( i.e. the peasants , woman and children) for every 1 killed german soldier by the partisans.
So i/m really doubt that the dear Strangy will so glad to fight against the Germans in the East;)

Cheers.

There was no question of the brutality of the SS (AND YES THE WEHRMACHT as well)! But just countering absurdities with your own absurdities is not winning you any arguments my friend...

Cheers

Kato
09-17-2007, 11:29 AM
Posted by Chevan

There are sight about Golodomor as genocide alternative to the point of the opinion: Responsibility for Golodomor in the Ukraine bear to a considerable degree Ukrainian authorities - Secretary General CK CPU Stanislav Kosior, chairman of SNK of Ukrainian SSR Vlas Chubar, chairman OF THE GPU of Ukrainian SSR Balitskiy, the chairman of the Gosplan of Ukrainian SSR Nikolai Skrypnik.



Станисла́в Вике́нтьевич Косио́р (укр. Станіслав Вікентійович Косіор, польск. Stanisław Kosior, 18 (6) ноября 1889 г. Венгрув Седлецкой губ., Польша — 26 февраля 1939) — политический и государственный деятель СССР. По мнению украинских историков — один из главных виновников Голодомора 1932—1933 гг.

По национальности поляк. Один из организаторов КП(б) Украины, в 1919—1920 — секретарь ЦК КП(б) Украины, с 1926 г. — секретарь ЦК ВКП(б), с 1932 г. — генеральный секретарь ЦК КП(б)У. Был активным проводником сталинской политики на Украине, однако в то же время насаждал собственный мини-культ личности (в частности, имя Косиора носила официальная радиостанция Украины). Во время Голодомора, вызванного последствиями массовой коллективизации, по инициативе Косиора было расстреляно немало беспризорников.

Brief essence of the passage: Stanisław Kosior was a Pole by birth.
The general secretary of the Ukrainian section of the Soviet communist party.
Was related to Holodomor. After holodomor he initiated the executions of Ukrainian orphans.





So as we could see the own Ukrainians were responsible for the Holodomore.
Just one interesting fact in the Kuban where i am living there Holodomore was too in 1932-33. However the victims in Kuban was much less then in Ukraine. Although the negative conditions were the same but the More tragical death toll in Ukraine was explained by the own Ukrain communists "activity".
So it was guilt not ONLY the Stalin but the own Ukrain communists, Kato.

The Ukrainian communists couldn't stir a finger without the appropriate order from Moscow. So the statements that the guilt in organizing holodomor rests with local Ukrainian communists are nuisance. No one disputes the fact that Jewish ghettos had Jewish police subject to Germans or that many prisoners in German concentration camps served Germans for additional portions of food. However, nobody states that "evil" Jews organized holocaust of other Jews and the victims of Germans concentration camps were killed as a result of squaring accounts between prisoners

Chevan
09-17-2007, 12:15 PM
I never said that Nazy regime that was more "Human". I said the Soviets killed more Ukrainians than German Nazi.
hey somebody help the Kato to remove off the hand brake;)
He write the posts twice.


Yes, it is insulting that the Moscow regime was breaking all the records in the export of the confiscated Ukrainian grain and other food-stuffs to the Nazi Germany when millions of Ukrainians were dying from hunger.

Soviet regime ( i.e. russian, belorussian and ets) but in the Ukraine it was the Ukrainian regime -not Moscow.


It is insulting that Moscow organized another
artificial famine in the southern and eastern Ukraine in 1946. It was how Russians thanked millions of Ukrainians who fought and died in struggle against Nazy in the ranks of the Red Army and saved Europe from German slavery.
Only the Ukrainian central and western regions controlled by "pro-fascist" UPA managed to avoid hunger.
WTF central regions that controlled the UPA- are you kidding or this is the megalomania , Kato?
You clearly know that except the few areas near Lviv the Benderovtsy never controlled more.
And what the fu...k the Russian thanked the Ukrainians in the 1946- are you finished nut?
The famine of 1946 was the IN RUSSIA TOO. In my city also - does it mean that the Moscow "organiozed the famine of the russians too"?
And do not forget that except the Ukrainians in the red army fopught a many other nationalities including Russian, berlorussian , kazah and ets who ALSO SAVED the WORLD from Nazism via his lives .

Cheers.

Chevan
09-17-2007, 12:56 PM
Brief essence of the passage: Stanisław Kosior was a Pole by birth.
The general secretary of the Ukrainian section of the Soviet communist party.
Was related to Holodomor. After holodomor he initiated the executions of Ukrainian orphans.
Oh he was the poles by the birth- what 's a good luck;)
Now UPA was sunctioned to kill the poles in Volun- as for revenge for the holodomore.
What's a nice explanation.
So and who were the chairman of SNK of Ukrainian SSR Vlas Chubar, chairman OF THE GPU of Ukrainian SSR Balitskiy, the chairman of the Gosplan of Ukrainian SSR Nikolai Skrypnik by birth?
Let i gues.... hmmmmmm.... yes sure thay all were the Moskali by the birt. Or they were the jews , or the poles?
They all have the tupical polish/jewish families- how do you think;)
But absolutly correct - they were not Ukrainians, right.
And let me to gues who ordered the Kosir to shot the Ukrainian orphans- sure the Moscow who is more?
But its strange why Moscow ordered to shot ONLY ukrainians orphans, by they did not ordered to shot the orphans in other republics?
May be the Moscow specially hated the Ukraine more then other republics?


The Ukrainian communists couldn't stir a finger without the appropriate order from Moscow.

Hmmn but the fact speaks another true.
For instance the Ukrain leaders PERSONALY accepted decision - who must be shot , and who avoid the death.
He fully organised gathering and confiscation from the Ukrain peasants. Moscow ONLY determined the plan of gathering.The Ukrain authorities HAD the personal punisment mashine Ukrain department of NKVD where the ALL of posts were hold by the Ukrainians.
So do not tell me that without the Moscow they did not shot the Ukrainians.
If you think that Moscow had no other duties except to manage the Ukraine- you are deeply mistaken .


So the statements that the guilt in organizing holodomor rests with local Ukrainian communists are nuisance. No one disputes the fact that Jewish ghettos had Jewish police subject to Germans or that many prisoners in German concentration camps served Germans for additional portions of food. However, nobody states that "evil" Jews organized holocaust of other Jews and the victims of Germans concentration camps were killed as a result of squaring accounts between prisoners
Do not spread a noncence.
In the comcentrations camp the Jews who colloborated with Nazy hold ONLY the lowest
ruling posts. All the management of the camps was in fully NAzy hands. So there is no any stopud comparition
betwen the situation in Soviet Ukrain when the MOSCOW ONLY formed and demanded the PLAN - and then the LOCAL Ukraine athorities PERSONALY decided - who must be shoted and confiscated all the products , and who still could live.
The ABSOLUTE SIMULAR plans of collectivistaion and confiscation was in the Russia. So if in Russia the death rate was less- ONLY coz the local authorities were more human.
So you here do not tell us the fary tells and focuses aboput "Nazy camps". There no fools.

Kato
09-17-2007, 01:23 PM
WTF central regions that controlled the UPA- are you kidding or this is the megalomania , Kato?
You clearly know that except the few areas near Lviv the Benderovtsy never controlled more.
And what the fu...k the Russian thanked the Ukrainians in the 1946- are you finished nut?

Your geographical and historical knowledge are amazing. What other Ukrainian cities do you know beside Lviv? You just spoke about Volyn. In your opinion it is some small area near Lviv? Do you know that one of UPA strongholds were Zhytomyr, Khmelnitskij and Vinnitsa regions. Quite central ones according to the soviet geography? What about Rovno region, modern Frankovsk regions and Zakarpatia?
Do you know the large eastern territories of modern Poland used to be under the control of UPA till the operation Visla?
Do you know that UPA units operated in the south-western Belarus and in the Carpathian areas of Slovakia and Romania?

Chevan
09-17-2007, 02:07 PM
Your geographical and historical knowledge are amazing. What other Ukrainian cities do you know beside Lviv? You just spoke about Volyn. In your opinion it is some small area near Lviv? Do you know that ine of UPA strongholds were Zhytomyr, Khmelnitskij and Vinnitsa regions. Quite central ones according to the soviet geography? What about Rovno region, modern Frankovsk regions and Zakarpatia?
Do you know the large eastern territories of modern Poland used to be under the control of UPA till the operation Visla?
Do you know that UPA units operated in the south-western Belarus and in the Carpathian areas of Slovakia and Romania?

Yes it so hard to learn the Ukraine geographia and administrative division;)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_blank.png/400px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_blank.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/f/f6/Languages_in_Ukraine.PNG/350px-Languages_in_Ukraine.PNG

Do you know that ine of UPA strongholds were Zhytomyr, Khmelnitskij and Vinnitsa regions
Really the Zhytomyr, Khmelnitskij and Vinnitsa were the strongholds of UPA?
If so why the after the WW2 the Soviet fought against UPA Only in the Western Ukraine


http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0 %BD%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D1% 80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F
В 1948 году остатки УПА под руководством Шухевича продолжали партизанские действия на территории Львовской, Тернопольской и Ивано-Франковской областей
...........
Since the 1948 the rest of UPA fough ONLY in the Lviv, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk areas
And where was the Central stronghold of UPA? How do yo think? He simply dissapeared coz there vere NEVER the serious of UPA movenment in Centr of Ukrain . ONLY in the WEST..

Kato
09-17-2007, 02:49 PM
Yes it so hard to learn the Ukraine geographia and administrative division;)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_blank.png/400px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_blank.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/f/f6/Languages_in_Ukraine.PNG/350px-Languages_in_Ukraine.PNG

Really the Zhytomyr, Khmelnitskij and Vinnitsa were the strongholds of UPA?
If so why the after the WW2 the Soviet fought against UPA Only in the Western Ukraine

And where was the Central stronghold of UPA? How do yo think?

In November 1944, Khrushchev launched the first of several large-scale Soviet assaults on UPA involving at least 20 NKVD combat divisions supported by artillery and armored units. They blockaded villages and roads and set parts of the forests on fire. Investigation of newly-opened Soviet archives by historians in the 1990s showed evidence that NKVD units dressed as UPA soldiers[7] and committed atrocities in order to demoralize the civilian population.[1] As a result of it the areas of UPA activity were depopulated.

Kato
09-17-2007, 02:54 PM
Polish operation Wisła against Ukrainian insurgents and civilians (April 28, 1947 - 1952)

The operation was carried out by Operational Group Wisła consisting of about 20,000 personnel commanded by General Stefan Mossor consisting of soldiers of Polish Army and KBW, as well as functionaries of Milicja Obywatelska and UB[3]. The operation commenced at 4 a.m., April 28, 1947. Expellees were 140,000-150,000 Ukrainians and Lemkos still remaining after the 1944-1946 resettlements to the USSR, and inhabiting Polesie, Roztocze, Pogórze Przemyskie, Bieszczady, Beskid Niski, Beskid Sądecki and Ruś Szlachtowska.

Members of the intelligentsia, including clergy (both Greek-Catholic and Orthodox), were sent from collection points to the concentration camp in Jaworzno called the Central Work Camp, and was a branch of the German camp Auschwitz. At the latter camp, almost 4,000 persons were held, including 800 women and dozens of children. The captives, of whom 200 died in the camp, were subject to harsh interrogations and beatings despite the fact that no active members of the Ukrainian nationalist resistance (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists or the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - UPA) were sent to the camp. For the latter show trials by the extraordinary Operation Group Wisła Tribunals or regular military tribunals were held and over 500 were sentenced to death and executed.


The remaining expellees were resettled to Warmia and Masuria, in the north, or to the western Recovered Territories. The last resettlements took place as late as 1952, in Polesia. Operation Wisła closed officially with the ceremonial bestowing of decorations on the most deserving Polish soldiers, held on the Polish-Czechoslovak border.

A consequence of Operation Wisła was the almost total depopulation of Pogórze Przemyskie, Bieszczady and Beskid Niski. The relocation of the population put the UIA in a difficult position: deprived of human and other resources, the outnumbered Ukrainian partisans were unable to hold their own against the Communist Polish Army. Nevertheless the UIA (UPA) continued its fight for several more years. After the last relocations, the UIA's activities on Polish territory died out, while some Ukrainian insurgents fled to Western Europe.

Kato
09-17-2007, 03:03 PM
UPA fighters in Belarus co-ordinated their actions with one of the leaders of Belorussian anti-soviet resistance Myhal Vytushko.

The Agreement between Chekoslovakia and the USSR on joint actions to defeat UPA in Chekoslovakia testifies to the operations of UPA in this country.

There are credible records of UPA presence in mountain border areas of Romania and Hungary.

Kato
09-17-2007, 03:08 PM
So and who were the chairman of SNK of Ukrainian SSR Vlas Chubar, chairman OF THE GPU of Ukrainian SSR Balitskiy, the chairman of the Gosplan of Ukrainian SSR Nikolai Skrypnik by birth?
Let i gues.... hmmmmmm.... yes sure thay all were the Moskali by the birt. Or they were the jews , or the poles?
They all have the tupical polish/jewish families- how do you think
But absolutly correct - they were not Ukrainians, right.
And let me to gues who ordered the Kosir to shot the Ukrainian orphans- sure the Moscow who is more?
But its strange why Moscow ordered to shot ONLY ukrainians orphans, by they did not ordered to shot the orphans in other republics?
May be the Moscow specially hated the Ukraine more then other republics?


You may play a clown as long as you wish. It just shows your true nature.
In every occupied country there were, are and will be locals who collaborate with occupants. Your favourite Ukrainians will always be Chubars, Skrypniks, Balitskiys.



Moscow ONLY determined the plan of gathering.

You are claiming that Ukrainian authorities were manned only by Ukrainians. Evidently Russian communists became banderovtsi and adopted the ideology of Ukrainian nationalism.


The Ukrain authorities HAD the personal punisment mashine Ukrain department of NKVD where the ALL of posts were hold by the Ukrainians.

There was one NKVD and one GPU. One punisment machine based on the Russian ethnicity and language for the whole Soviet Union. It was the only thing that kept republics together. If each republic had had its own punitive machine and authorities manned only by locals the Soviet union would have collapsed within a few months.

Following this logic all the troops of Ukrainian and Belorussian fronts were manned by Ukrainians and Belorussians and were commanded by the Ukrainian and Belorussion party bureaucrats. All Russians apparently surrendered to Germans or evecuated to America and Britain.

Kato
09-17-2007, 03:46 PM
The ABSOLUTE SIMULAR plans of collectivistaion and confiscation was in the Russia. So if in Russia the death rate was less- ONLY coz the local authorities were more human.

I doubt that you can pursuade even a baby with the fairy tales that some Soviet authorities were more human than others. If it is true they were not more humane they were real "martyrs" who sabotaged the plan adopted in Moscow and doomed themselves for arrests and executons as foreign spies and enemies of people.

However, there are more banal and prosaic explanations for the Russian death rate from
hunger that was fifteen times lower the the Ukrainian one. The hunger was artificially created in the areas with a large or mainly Ukrainian population. Your Kuban with the majority of Ukrainians at least before holodomor, Kursk and Voronizh regions of modern Russia and so on.

So nearly all this 4.5 % people alleged Russians died in Russia from holodomor were of Ukrainian origin.

The authorities of the USSR never targeted Russians in their genocides.

The very same situation was in 1946.

After these genocides in 1933 and 1946 the whole areas in the east and south of Ukraine got depopulated. Guess who usually came to these areas after the end of famines? Russians. Unlike those who faced forceful deportations they were given houses of the dead and all the necessities for life.

Chevan
09-17-2007, 11:31 PM
In every occupied country there were, are and will be locals who collaborate with occupants. Your favourite Ukrainians will always be Chubars, Skrypniks, Balitskiys.

So you should thank them for the terror that all those colloborations : more exactly all the Head of Local Ukrainin gov , the tens thousands of the memebers of punismentand NKVD, and the MILLIONS memebers of the Ukrain ComParty- thay were all so glad and claps for the comrade Stalin.


You are claiming that Ukrainian authorities were manned only by Ukrainians. Evidently Russian communists became banderovtsi and adopted the ideology of Ukrainian nationalism.

Yes the Ukraines ruled ONLY by the Ukrainians , however the generale Line was COMMON for all the USSR and was determined by the Polutburo and ComParty in Head of Comride Stalin ( who was also non-russian marsian).The LOCAL authorities ( that were headed by the Local NATIONAL leaders) executed the General policy in the Republic. They had all power to rules according general line.
The absolutly all Republic was roughly in equal conditions- so you better do not spread the fary tell about the Russians who make the famine for the Ukraine;)


There was one NKVD and one GPU. One punisment machine based on the Russian ethnicity and language for the whole Soviet Union. It was the only thing that kept republics together. If each republic had had its own punitive machine and authorities manned only by locals the Soviet union would have collapsed within a few months.

This is a scrap- and tupical Orage bulshit.
The thing that joined the all Soviet republic together was the ComParty and Polutburoo where were the representatives OF ALL THE NATIONAL Republic of the USSR. And the Ukraines played the active part in the Comparty.The absolutelly all republic were presented in the Soviet Power.
Besides in Every republic the National Communists ethnic ruling elite.


Following this logic all the troops of Ukrainian and Belorussian fronts were manned by Ukrainians and Belorussians and were commanded by the Ukrainian and Belorussion party bureaucrats. All Russians apparently surrendered to Germans or evecuated to America and Britain.
No Kato , do not make the absourd poin here.
The Red Army in a front was managed by the Military Stuff of defence (Stavka) in head Supreme General Commander Stalin. Byt the Ukrainians from the Eastern and Central part aslo were among the ALL layers of Military command ( and do not forget about Soviet ukrainian partisans- the most bigges anti-fascist power in Ukraine).

Chevan
09-18-2007, 12:09 AM
I doubt that you can pursuade even a baby with the fairy tales that some Soviet authorities were more human than others. If it is true they were not more humane they were real "martyrs" who sabotaged the plan adopted in Moscow and doomed themselves for arrests and executons as foreign spies and enemies of people.

So they were the heros , right. They saved the peoples ;)
In cotrast to the Ukrain communist .
I think all rater simple - the Russian local authorities did not make the such "mistakes" like the Ukraine did.
They ruled more professional and they little cared about the peoples.


However, there are more banal and prosaic explanations for the Russian death rate from
hunger that was fifteen times lower the the Ukrainian one. The hunger was artificially created in the areas with a large or mainly Ukrainian population. Your Kuban with the majority of Ukrainians at least before holodomor, Kursk and Voronizh regions of modern Russia and so on.

My Kuban with majiority of Ukrains?????
Man are you sick , when were the Ukrainians the majority in Kuban?
You are definitally have the problems megalomania.
Partly the Kuban cossacs had the Ukrainian roots.However There vere never the Majiority of them in Kuban.Especially in the 1920-1930yy


So nearly all this 4.5 % people alleged Russians died in Russia from holodomor were of Ukrainian origin.

This is a just part of true.
Indeed as we could see the about the 5% of alleged Ukrainians who died in Ukraine in 1931-33 were NOT -Ukrainians. Coz you perfectly know that the Local Ukrain communists hold the policy of Ukrainisation - thus many of the victims were simply written as the Ukrains.


The authorities of the USSR never targeted Russians in their genocides.

Well tell this for the others Kato, may they will belive in this bulshit.
The Most of VICTIMS OF BOLSHEVICS terror were the Russians, besides the RUSSIANS were the basis of prisoner of GULAG - yo know it. Russians were the first who meet the Big Red terror in 1918-1920.

Chevan
09-18-2007, 12:43 AM
That's enough about Holodomore in this thread
The continie is here
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=108803#post108803