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32Bravo
09-11-2007, 06:18 AM
Vo Ngyen Giap was a North Vietnamese General.

Ngyuen, pronounced 'New-yen' is a common name in Vietnam, it means 'Pray' and can be applied to either sex.

Anyone know how one pronounces 'Giap' and what it might mean?

Rising Sun*
09-11-2007, 11:55 PM
Pronounced Yap

Means tank, armour, that type of thing.

32Bravo
09-12-2007, 03:01 AM
Pronounced Yap

Means tank, armour, that type of thing.

Now that is interesting.

It must have begun as a nickname, do you think?

As far as I can see, the Ngyuen is the equvalent of a surname, or family name, and is shared by many of the Vitenamese. It would appear that the last name is the equivalent of a forename, in this case Giap.

Thanks for the pronunciation, RS. I always assumed it was 'Jap' until recently, when something sparked my curiosity.

Rising Sun*
09-12-2007, 07:07 AM
Now that is interesting.

It must have begun as a nickname, do you think?

As far as I can see, the Ngyuen is the equvalent of a surname, or family name, and is shared by many of the Vitenamese. It would appear that the last name is the equivalent of a forename, in this case Giap.

Thanks for the pronunciation, RS. I always assumed it was 'Jap' until recently, when something sparked my curiosity.

I always read it as "Jap" but apparently that's not how it was pronounced. Maybe it's not Yap either, as my understanding is that Vietnamese is a tonal as well as phonetic language, like Chinese.

I have no confidence in Vietnamese pronunciations. I've been assured by a good number of Vietnamese that Ngyuen is pronounced anything from "Nwin" to "Noyen". Maybe it's a regional or dialect thing. As for Ng, which is at least as common, it has only two letters and possibly manages a wider range of claimed pronunciations.

I don't know if Giap was his real or an assumed name. Mabye he chose it at some stage.

Ho Chi Minh's birth name definitely didn't include any of those names and he used many names during his life, before settling on Ho Chi Minh in the, apparently, early 1920's. Supposedly it means all sorts of impressive things, depending upon who you read. Here's one history http://www.vietquoc.com/0006vq.htm

Maybe it was a custom in those circles to pick impressive names, or just a consequence of being in banned / opposition organisations where using an alias was a wise move.

Rising Sun*
09-12-2007, 07:13 AM
P.S.

I was assuming you knew the answer for the meaning of Giap.

If not, I've just gleaned it from ranks and units where Giap always pops up in armoured units.

Rising Sun*
09-12-2007, 07:14 AM
P.P.S.

Where've you been lately?

Soaking up the English sun? :D

32Bravo
09-12-2007, 02:30 PM
P.P.S.

Where've you been lately?

Soaking up the English sun? :D


Yes, as it happens. I was out and about - around Lieth Hill, in the Dorking area - today. Arrived back as brown as a berry.

My daughter is home from Uni, at the moment. spends much of her time trawling - or should that be surfing? - fashion sites, can't get anywhere near the P.C. :( :(

Thanks for the info on 'Bac Ho' interesting tha he is yet another Ngyuen or Nguyen - I find it all rather fascinating.

Gen. Sandworm
09-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Vo Ngyen Giap was a North Vietnamese General.

Ngyuen, pronounced 'New-yen' is a common name in Vietnam, it means 'Pray' and can be applied to either sex.

Anyone know how one pronounces 'Giap' and what it might mean?

Well the way I understood and I could be wrong is.....

Vo....short O
N-gua-yen or if you understand norwegian N...short N. gø-yen
Gee-ap in norwegian gi-ap

32Bravo
09-13-2007, 01:42 AM
That exprains it all. The Flench and, rater, the Flee World Forces were barking up the wong twee, they should have been bombing Osro. :)

32Bravo
09-13-2007, 02:28 AM
I wonder if anyone can help here?

I was having drink with some old chums, the other day, and after a few of the Bushmills, we became involved in one of those 'memory-lane' type conversations. Anyway, we were casting our minds back some forty years or more - some feat after the Bushmills :) - and were trying to recall as many British (and I assume Australian etc.) Army sayings that had their origins in Empire. How it came about was that I mentioned a lady I met in the Sudan, a couple of years ago, asking for Bukshees.

Anyway, what we were trying to do was compile a list of words or phrases, their origin and their meaning.

For example

Bukshee origin: Indhi?

meaning: (1) 'surplus to' or (2)'of no account'

(1) Bukshee kit (2) After apologising to a mate after having ones way with his bird, sheila, chick, he replies 'its bukshee mate'

So, what we is looking for, is words, their origins and their meanings.

Here are a few which we could remember, but whose origins and spelling, as far as we were concerned,were uncertain but remain a part of soldier-speak today:

Basha - anything from use of a tarp as a makeshift shelter, to a large hut. Used in much the same way as the American Forces term Hootch.

Bhanjo/banjo - bread roll containing food e.g. chip bhanjo, egg bhanjo etc.

Bukshee - see above

Bumff - documentation

Char/chah - tea

Chahwallah - tea, bhanjo and small items shop, usually contracted by the British Army to a person of Inidian origin, hence Wallah.

Chit - toilet paper - sorry, just kidding, R.S. :D

Dobie/doby - laundry

Mucker/muckah - mate, cobber, buddy - tovarich :D

Pukkah - excellently finished job, the real thing.

Punk - large fan usually manually operated by a wallah.

Sahib/sah'b - Sir, gentleman, whiteman.

Wallah in Empire days, a servant e.g. Dobiewallah, Chahwallah. Punkawallah

Generally speaking, the wallah has been dropped since the days of Empire, probably with the exception of the Chahwallah, although soldiers usually have a more colourful name for it, but, as one might expect, not very 'politically correct'.

I have tried surfing the net, but not managed to come up with anything, if anyone can add to the list, it would be most appreciated, Sahib.

Rising Sun*
09-13-2007, 07:13 PM
Chit - toilet paper - sorry, just kidding, R.S. :D


I suppose that's toilet humour. :D

Two more.

Puttee, being strips of cloth serving the same function as gaiters, but nowhere near as practical, and worn by British forces in WWI (and Japanese in WWII, no doubt with different name) http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/leg-foot-wear.htm

Puggaree, being, in Oz, the band of cloth around the base of the crown on a slouch hat. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/puggaree.htm

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 02:43 AM
I suppose that's toilet humour. :D

Two more.

Puttee, being strips of cloth serving the same function as gaiters, but nowhere near as practical, and worn by British forces in WWI (and Japanese in WWII, no doubt with different name) http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/leg-foot-wear.htm

Puggaree, being, in Oz, the band of cloth around the base of the crown on a slouch hat. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/puggaree.htm

Or latrine humour? :)

My unit always wore puttees, right up until the introduction of high combat boots, which was way after my time. I wore gaiters in basic training, but always preferred puttees. Having said that, we wore them wrapped about the ankles, not up to the knees. The Malayan Scouts (SAS) wore several pairs of puttees - wrapped to the knees in the old fashion - to protect their legs when tree-jumping (parachuting into the jungle).

As an aside, even though the SAS eventually decided to abandon Tree-jumping as it caused too many casualties during the Malayan Emergency, it was precisely on account of this ability that they were first employed in Borneo several years later. Also, the Ghurka Independant Para Company, was raised to practise the same technique in Borneo and carry out the same activities as the SAS. I'm sure that both units were pleased with the developments of the Whirlwind and Wessex helicopters by Sikorski and Westand. :)

The Puggaree is new to me, or I've never taken any notice of it in th past. Presumably, the British bush hats were the same and they too gave it the same name.

The Ghurka bush hat seems to be of a different design, or is it simply the way they wear it without the turn-up of the brim?

Two more, Jildy! (not sure of the spelling) meaning "hurry!" and Sangah being a makeshift bunker made from rocks, usually in rocky and mountainous areas e.g. the Western Desert; the North West Frontier and Mount Tumbledown, in the Falklands.

If anyone can correct any spelling, I'd appreciate it.

Rising Sun*
09-14-2007, 05:17 AM
Or latrine humour? :)

I don't care what it is, as long as it doesn't give me the chits. :D

Don't know if you got this far in puggaree link, but there's a link with Malaya that leads to one of those curious uniform traditions whereby the unit uniform fails to conform with the army uniform.


Today the Army wears the 7 fold khaki cotton muslin puggaree, (see photo left) with the exception of 1RAR, who wear a green puggaree. (see photo, right)

That tradition started in Malaya when the regimental tailor, a Mr. Mohavved Beseek, working to a deadline and with no khaki material available made some out of green, British army shirt material he had to hand. The then CO of 1RAR determined that the green puggaree was to remain a 1RAR uniform item.

1 RAR = 1 Royal Australian Regiment = For practical purposes: First numbered battalion in Australian infantry OOB.

More on its Malayan service here http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-army-today/rar-sasr/1_rar.htm

I don't know why we call our infantry battalions regiments as part of their formal title. Possibly it's a cunning plan to fool potential enemies into thinking that we have three times more battalions than we really do, on the basis that a regiment in the US can be the equivalent of a brigade in Oz. I don't know that it matters. Indonesia has more than twenty times our population, so I don't think it will be dissuaded from attacking us if it thinks it has only about a seven times numerial advantage instead of its true twenty times advantage.

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 05:53 AM
I don't care what it is, as long as it doesn't give me the chits. :D

Don't know if you got this far in puggaree link, but there's a link with Malaya that leads to one of those curious uniform traditions whereby the unit uniform fails to conform with the army uniform.

This I find particularly interesting. I'm wondering whether the puggaree was designed on the turban in order ot persuade Sikhs to wear it on active duty, as opposed to wearing a turban, or whether it was a show of solidarity with the East Indian members of the Indian Army. Whatever the reason, it is typical of how Empire units absorbed each others' culture in one form or another, much the same as the adoption of the names and sayings being discussed on this thread.

The green puggaree story is typical of a unit adopting something that is unique to itself, and thus adds to the esprit de corps. I haven't actually seen one being worn though.





1 RAR = 1 Royal Australian Regiment = For practical purposes: First numbered battalion in Australian infantry OOB.

More on its Malayan service here http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-army-today/rar-sasr/1_rar.htm

I don't know why we call our infantry battalions regiments as part of their formal title. Possibly it's a cunning plan to fool potential enemies into thinking that we have three times more battalions than we really do, on the basis that a regiment in the US can be the equivalent of a brigade in Oz. I don't know that it matters. Indonesia has more than twenty times our population, so I don't think it will be dissuaded from attacking us if it thinks it has only about a seven times numerial advantage instead of its true twenty times advantage.

Is Indonesia seen as a threat for any particular reason, or is it simply that its your economically-strongest neighbour?

I think that you are probably right on this one, regarding numbers of regiments being used to display greater strength.

I was of thinking that the SASR was used to make the distinction from the British SAS?

Two more words: Take a Dekho meaning take a look; and gone Dolalli meaning - gone crazy!

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 05:55 AM
The sun has just popped out from behind a cloud - time to get a jildy on and get back to the garden.

Rising Sun*
09-14-2007, 07:29 AM
Is Indonesia seen as a threat for any particular reason, or is it simply that its your economically-strongest neighbour?

Economically, it's not our strongest neighbour, unless you want to rate it on the standards of corruption. Malaysia and Singapore are far more productive and profitable than Indonesia on a per capita basis. Maybe the Philippines, too. Not that corruption isn’t rife in the other countries, and everywhere else in our region up to China and Japan and apart from New Zealand, but just better concealed than in Indonesia.

Many Australians regard it as likely but not inevitable that we'll fight Indonesia, again and this time seriously, at some stage. I'm one of them.

Our relationship with Indonesia has been troubled for most of the time since WWII and we've been in armed conflict once (Konfrontasi) and close a second time (East Timor 1999), because on a common view Australia was too piss weak in 1975 to stand up to Indonesia when it invaded East Timor.

In my view, Australia wasn't too piss weak because I and a lot of others, including diggers who owed the East Timorese a great debt because of the support they gave our troops, both in formal actions and later as guerrillas against the Japanese in WWII, were all for getting up there and belting the living shit out of the Indos the moment they landed, because they were pussy footing around and wouldn‘t have gone in without a green light from our disgraceful government at the time, although the other lot would have done exactly the same if they‘d been in power.

It suited Australia to let Indonesia invade East Timor to suppress the supposed communist independence movement trying to break away from Portuguese control. The Indos, having massacred hundreds of thousands of communists in their own country a decade or so earlier, could be relied upon to suppress the commos in ways we wouldn't. That was my view at the time and it's subsequently been more or less confirmed by documents released under the 30 year rule etc.

The Indos get offended by our government’s arrogant, insensitive, ignorant and stupid attitude and, in the immortal words of Gomer Pyle Surprise! Surprise! we get offended by them doing the same to us. Neither party gets tired of telling the other how it ought to conduct its internal and external affairs.

The situation isn’t helped from our end by Indonesia being home to a very virulent and violent form of Islamo-fascism, which links to similar movements in the Philippines and Malaysia and then to bin Laden and the usual suspects. The Islamo-fascists have a lot of influence in Indonesia and it’s growing.

We’re still pissed off with them for targeting Westerners in general and Australians in particular in a couple of bombings in Bali, the first in 2002 which killed over 200 people including about 90 Australians. They tried to bomb our embassy in Jakarta but stuffed it up, as well as the bomb defences in the embassy minimising the effects.

There’s a lot of sympathy for these thugs at high levels of the Indo government and especially the military and police, which is not to say that there aren’t also elements in the government and police who are flatly opposed to them and doing some outstanding work in bringing them to what passes for justice in Indonesia's curious justice system where you can be executed for having a bit of ecstasy or cocaine (and failing to take the sensible step of greasing the palm(s) of the arresting officer(s) or having the misfortune not to be related to anybody important) but not for conspiring to kill, or even killing, lots of people.

Then there’s the Muslim / Christian conflict in Aceh and other parts of Indonesia where the Islamo-fascists have been slaughtering Christians to drive them out, with a fair bit of success, with lots of beheadings and mutilation murders etc etc

The measure of these religious mongrels is that when we sent in military and civil aid groups after the 2004 tsunamai devastated parts of Indonesia, including Aceh where the Islamists had been busy getting rid of the Christians (it's more complicated than that - think of something vaguely like Northern Ireland where power and wealth often divided along religious lines with the same divison of beliefs about who was more entitled to be running the show because of contested historical claims) some rabid Muslim elements objected because they didn’t want their land and people contaminated by Christians. If they were the bastards we were trying to help, I’d have happily let them starve to death and die of dehydration and disease. As it was, we went in and did some sterling work and saved tens of thousands of lives, which only increased the opposition from the Islamic purists who weren’t actually at risk of the harm we saved their people from, so they started up an opposition relief effort. Pity they didn't, and couldn't, get their show up and running in the first few weeks when lives were actually being saved without regard to religion,when it mattered.

If things keep heading in the direction chosen by the Islamo-fascists, and there is every sign they will with things like the editor of a tame Indo version of Playboy being pilloried by the Islamo-fascists http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6528529.stm (In case you‘re wondering why the editor had to move to Bali, it‘s predominantly Hindu unlike the rest of Islamic Indonesia and Surprise! Surprise! that‘s where the bin Laden followers chose to attack Westerners - an exercise in killing two birds with one stone and, continuing the avian metaphor, not shitting in your own nest) you don’t have to be Einstein to work out what the future holds for Australia if these bigoted, arrogant, vicious, and rampantly violent ****wits ever gain the ascendancy in Indonesia, and there’s a reasonable chance that they will. Which will be a great pity, because the bulk of Muslims in Indonesia are a moderate and tolerant people, much more so than in the Middle East, Pakistan etc. It's no coincidence that it's the Wahabbi etc sponsored / bin Laden aligned ratbags in Indonesia who are importing a foreign virus to infect the local version of Islam, with mounting success.

There’s a whole lot of other historical, cultural and current factors that contribute to the problem, on both sides, but I’m rambling, so I’ll shut up.


I stuffed up on the figures. Indonesia has 10+ times our population, not twenty. Give half of them a broomstick and they'll still beat us to death.


I was of thinking that the SASR was used to make the distinction from the British SAS?

I don’t know the reasons. Maybe it just followed the convention at the time. Maybe it was to distinguish it from the British unit. In certain circles our SAS is just referred to “the regiment’ as if it’s the only one in the army. (Actually, given how few we have, it mightn’t be far wrong. :D)


Dekko (sp?) (As in "Have a dekko at that, mate!" = Have a look / gander / squiz / perve / butcher's ) was in common use here, but has gradually disappeared over the past 30 odd years. I doubt I've used it in the past ten or fifteen years, and I try to keep the old language alive.

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 07:48 AM
Found this when searching, answers one or two of my queries.

The bush hat was constructed of Fur felt and seems to have come in at least two styles, the single thickness and a double thickness (basicly two hats sewn together) often referred to as the Ghurka hat. A pleated purgee was the norm, when one was worn.
Wool Puttees were favored by the men of the 9th Borders, with the belief that these helped keep out bugs and leeches better then the canvas anklets.

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 08:04 AM
Many Australians regard it as likely but not inevitable that we'll fight Indonesia, again and this time seriously, at some stage. I'm one of them.


In my view, Australia wasn't too piss weak because I and a lot of others, including diggers who owed the East Timorese a great debt because of the support they gave our troops, both in formal actions and later as guerrillas against the Japanese in WWII, were all for getting up there and belting the living shit out of the Indos the moment they landed, because they were pussy footing around and wouldn‘t have gone in without a green light from our disgraceful government at the time, although the other lot would have done exactly the same if they‘d been in power.

You must be an imposter, the real R.S. is a pacifist. :)

Seriously, some interesting comments. I would never have considered Indonesia as a threat to Australia. Perhaps the current situation with the Islamics might change things, if they came ot power, but even then I believe they'd be on a hiding to nothing.

Regardles of their numbers, I would imagine that the only way they could be of a threat would be through the use of terrorist tactics.

Our governments always seem to back the facists against the communists, and then end up regretting it - Vietnam comes to mind, not too mention various South American countries.





Dekko (sp?) (As in "Have a dekko at that, mate!" = Have a look / gander / squiz / perve / butcher's ) was in common use here, but has gradually disappeared over the past 30 odd years. I doubt I've used it in the past ten or fifteen years, and I try to keep the old language alive.

Yes, Dekho and Dolalli are a bit of a throwback. Used to hear both a lot back in the sixties. Squiz and perve I'm unfamiliar with in the context of Dekho?

I guess the alure of cinema and TV shows which have a hand in transforming youth culture to the point of it becoming main-stream as the youths become adults, and the old language goes the same way as the old people.

p.s. Sorry, must dash! It looks as if it's about to rain and I must fetch the washing in. :)

Rising Sun*
09-14-2007, 09:40 AM
You must be an imposter, the real R.S. is a pacifist.

I am, but I wasn’t then.

I thought then that intractable problems could be solved by belting the shit out of people, forcing them to accept reality with the heel of my boot on their throat.

I still do, but that’s my last resort, and only if I can beat them to a pulp first which will make them never want to tangle with me again. That's not likely to happen.

Then it was my first resort.

My current, somewhat modified, pacifist position with the risk of Armageddon if anyone disagrees with me is, of course, no more likely to work.

But, if applied judiciously, it will get rid of a lot of problem people in the process. Ideally those on the other side, but anything can always turn out badly.


Seriously, some interesting comments. I would never have considered Indonesia as a threat to Australia. Perhaps the current situation with the Islamics might change things, if they came ot power, but even then I believe they'd be on a hiding to nothing.

It’s to do with geography, culture and history.

We’re about as vulnerable to attack from Indonesia as was France from Germany in the 80 or so years to 1940, just because we’re there. Although we have a number of defensive advantages. Not least of which is that we’re not French. :D

Indonesia is a mildly expansionist but not necessarily aggressive nation which pretends it isn’t either, but its actions in grabbing West Irian (being West New Guinea) with which it has no cultural or ethnic or linguistic connection but purely because it was part of the old Dutch empire shows it’s perfectly suited to operate in the modern world. Indonesia’s actions during Konfrontasi didn’t demonstrate a willingness to allow its neighbours to determine their own futures in the way that Indonesia demanded it be allowed to after WWII.


Regardles of their numbers, I would imagine that the only way they could be of a threat would be through the use of terrorist tactics.

I’d hope our serious military planning has never worried about that pin ***** exercise, however much it might alarm the civilians. Ooops. I am a civilian.

The Indos have a limited capacity to launch an attack on us but, like the English Channel, we have the advantage of a lot water and, unlike Dover, a lot of desert between us and them.

The Indo forces also have a lot of internal problems to do with lack of uniform weapons and equipment, not to mention having limited training and experience in doing much apart from slaughtering ill-equipped and sometimes unarmed opponents in various parts of their empire.

We should know. We trained them for it, and are doing it again.

Against that, Mr Frigging Putin in his latest attempt to return the world to the Cold War where Russia gives goodies to client states (unlike the US, which won’t sell the Indos the same level of equipment it sells to us, even if it sells the same basic platform to both countries) has decided to poke his nose into the region to compliment his recently resumed strategic bomber flights to Guam and his Father of all MOAB's to show that Russia is still a power to be reckoned with by flogging lots of stuff to the Indos http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-09-11-voa11.cfm



Our governments always seem to back the facists against the communists, and then end up regretting it - Vietnam comes to mind, not too mention various South American countries.

That’s because our governments, when the conservatives are in, are instinctively aligned with the repressive regimes they support, but too delicate to advocate for them or their actions openly in your or my nation. I don’t know about yours, but we’ve been well on the way to a police state for a number of years. When the non-conservatives, being alleged labour parties in your and my nations, are in, then they’re instinctively aligned against the repressive regimes the conservatives support. But too often they just suck up to them and do business with them in an even more shameless fashion than the other lot.


Yes, Dekho and Dolalli are a bit of a throwback. Used to hear both a lot back in the sixties. Squiz and perve I'm unfamiliar with in the context of Dekho?

Squiz: No idea of derivation. Just means look, e.g Have a squiz [look] at that.

Perve’s a bit different. Same word means different things in different contexts.

e.g. I was perving on this sheila = innocent admiration of a woman. Okay, maybe not that innocent. But still quite an acceptable verb.

“He’s a perve” as a noun means anything from person doing the action described in the last sentence to being a full-on rock spider (paedophile).

I assume the derivation is from ‘pervert’.


p.s. Sorry, must dash! It looks as if it's about to rain and I must fetch the washing in. :)

Yes, a woman’s work is never done, is it?

Sometimes I wish there were more hours in the day to allow me to disprove the feminist complaint that women do all the work. I’m sometimes reminded of this when I run into the bloke next door at the supermarket, when we’re doing the family shopping while our wives are flat out doing nothing. :D

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 09:50 AM
When the non-conservatives, being alleged labour parties in your and my nations, are in, then they’re instinctively aligned against the repressive regimes the conservatives support. But too often they just suck up to them and do business with them in an even more shameless fashion than the other lot.


You mean like Gordon Brown inviting Margaret Thatcher around for tea, as happened yesterday? :)

Rising Sun*
09-14-2007, 09:59 AM
You mean like Gordon Brown inviting Margaret Thatcher around for tea, as happened yesterday? :)

Did that really happen?

Talk about a Brownout! :D

32Bravo
09-14-2007, 10:06 AM
Did that really happen?

Talk about a Brownout! :D


It really happened - I almost choked on me fish 'n' chips! :D

Rising Sun*
09-15-2007, 08:16 AM
It really happened - I almost choked on me fish 'n' chips! :D

I thought Maggie was off with the birds with Alzheimer's or something similar, like her mate Ronnie Reagan had?

If so, it probably wouldn't be an impediment to a long and pointless discussion with another politician. Most of them are off with the birds even when their brains aren't wired backwards.
:D

Although I understand that the dour Gordon is quite the gay (not in the shirt lifter turd burglar sense) Gordon in person. Hard to believe from his public persona.

Then again, some people say our prime minister has a personality in private.

It's easier to believe that Gordon is the giggle master of your fair land.

herman2
12-17-2008, 01:15 PM
You know you're a redneck when people say you lie through your tooth!

How many times are you going to post the same joke?