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Splinter54
06-27-2007, 11:59 AM
What's that for a weapon the second guy from the left carries?
The magazine looks strange.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/143/g41fk2.jpg

Source: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73139

bas
06-27-2007, 06:43 PM
Looks like a G.41(W) to me

Panzerknacker
06-29-2007, 07:58 AM
Definately a G-41.

Panzerknacker
08-27-2007, 10:21 AM
Split topic from "rare guns"

Panzerknacker
09-06-2007, 11:39 AM
Walther MKb 42.

The german breakthrough therefore came when an order was given in April 1938 to develop a weapon that used the specially developed Maschinenkarabiner-Patrone 7.92x33 or Kurzpatrone, later also called Pistolenpatrone 43, that was essentially a shortened Mauser 7.9mm (http://www.geocities.com/pizzatest/panzerfaust5.htm#patrone)standard rifle cartridge filled with pistol ammunition powder. Two notable designs emerged. The first was constructed by the company Walther and was called Maschinenkarabiner 42 (W) or Mkb 42(W).

http://gotavapen.se/gota/ak/stg/mkb42w.jpg

The MKb 42 used a gas operated system and it shot from closed bolt in full atomatic fire.

Is not sure how many were manufactured, the sources gave figures between 500-2000 rifles.

bas
09-06-2007, 05:56 PM
Panzerknacker; the whole intermediate cartridge story is quite an interesting one. Originally the job of designing the new Rifle/cartridge combination was given to Vollemer in the early 1930's and he came up with several prototypes until it was shelved in 1936 or so. Then all of a sudden Hugo Schmeisser of Heanel is approached to develop a new rifle made of as many stampings as possible around a new 8x33mm calibre. Which resulted in the birth of the MKb.42(H). For some reason Walther got in on the act too and came out with the MKb.42(W). Although it was never a serious contender it did prompt Schmeisser to change his design from a open bolt gun to being closed bolt. Which became the MP.43/1

Panzerknacker
09-06-2007, 06:07 PM
Thanks for the info, incidentally I ve found several images of the Haenel variant but very few of the Walther karabiner.

Tony Williams
09-08-2007, 08:22 AM
I've actually fired the Walther MKb32(W): a very soft, slow action. :cool:

Panzerknacker
09-08-2007, 09:54 AM
Great, I guess no much people had the oportunity tho actually firing this rare gun. what you mean with very soft action ?

MKb 42 (W)

http://www.militaryzone.cz/Pics_Clanky/STG/nemec1.jpg

Tony Williams
09-08-2007, 10:01 AM
The action cycled quite slowly and the recoil was soft.

Panzerknacker
09-08-2007, 10:08 AM
OK, the rate of fire surely isnt much in that way. :rolleyes:

Man of Stoat
09-17-2007, 02:20 AM
You don't want an extremely high rate of fire, designers go to great lengths to reduce it in shoulder fired individual weapons.

Panzerknacker
09-17-2007, 07:34 AM
Nice pictures of the G-41 walther in action.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3500/g4125jt.jpg


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9530/g4114wb.jpg

tankgeezer
09-17-2007, 11:56 AM
The G-41 kinda reminds me of the way the F.N.-49 functions. Was the F.N. design derivative of the G? A friend, owned a sturmGewehr, and fired it on a range visit, (he wouldnt let any of us fire it, tisk-tisk,,) and also an SKS. between the two there (from my vantage point) didnt seem to be alot of difference in recoil, or noise. just by observing how the rifle moved him when firing. As it was mine, the SKS is an easy to fire rifle, with little recoil, and not alot of noise compared to the 30-06, or 8mm (non Besa)

Panzerknacker
09-17-2007, 05:48 PM
The requeriment behind the G-41 was for a semiautomatic rifle with no gas holes in the barrel and with the posibility of manual operation as a normal bolt action if its automatic system failed....crazy.

tankgeezer
09-17-2007, 07:42 PM
Well, the F.N. had a gas port, oddly enough, also a valve to vary the gas pressure, and another to close off the gas port for a plain repeating action. The valve was just behind the Frt. sight, under the handguard, and the shut-off was in frt. of the foresight, just above the BBL.

Panzerknacker
09-17-2007, 07:57 PM
Yeap, but the G-41 work in a different way using the principle of muzzle gas trap also knows as "bang" system after the danish guy who invented him, extremely and unnecesary complicated.

SS soldier with bayoneted G-41W

http://i11.tinypic.com/5zqw7ba.jpg

bt3au
09-17-2007, 09:57 PM
Well, the F.N. had a gas port, oddly enough, also a valve to vary the gas pressure, and another to close off the gas port for a plain repeating action. The valve was just behind the Frt. sight, under the handguard, and the shut-off was in frt. of the foresight, just above the BBL.

sigh! loved my FN49 had Egyptian Markings the sights were graduated in arabic and had the Royal Egyptian crown on the reciever its the daddy of the FNFAL or L1A1 SLR in OZ, the gas layout even the bolt carrier is immediately recognisable by anyone who's fired and cleaned the FAL/L1A1 sadly my 49 went the way of thousands of semi autos when they were banned, chopped up and burnt:twisted::twisted::twisted::evil:

tankgeezer
09-18-2007, 01:17 AM
Quote by P.K.: "Yeap, but the G-41 work in a different way using the principle of muzzle gas trap also knows as "bang" system after the danish guy who invented him, extremely and unnecesary complicated."

The Germans always have to be different eh? :)

tankgeezer
09-18-2007, 01:26 AM
sigh! loved my FN49 had Egyptian Markings the sights were graduated in arabic and had the Royal Egyptian crown on the reciever its the daddy of the FNFAL or L1A1 SLR in OZ, the gas layout even the bolt carrier is immediately recognisable by anyone who's fired and cleaned the FAL/L1A1 sadly my 49 went the way of thousands of semi autos when they were banned, chopped up and burnt:twisted::twisted::twisted::evil:
A terrible and sad day for free men everywhere. When I was about 15, some friends were planning to move to Australia for employment opportunities. They had offered me the chance to go along, and live there too.My parents were okay with it,and I was looking forward to going, when they changed their minds, as they would not be able to bring their firearms with them. He made a pointed statement to the immigration official concerning this, (I was not allowed to know what he said,He was of Scot ancestry, and tolerated Government not at all.)long story short, I didnt get to go, and I agree with the friend's decision.
Did your government compensate you for your weapons? or did they do the Jackbooted thug routine?

Man of Stoat
09-18-2007, 01:46 AM
1. the FN 49 works on a completely different principle, conventional gas piston with a tipping block. The G41 has an annular piston around the barrel and two locking flaps, the locking being the same in principle as the Russian DP 28.

2. The annular gas piston around the barrel is NOT the same as the Bang system. In the former, the muzzle trap directs muzzle gases backwards around the barrel which act on an annular piston. This piston moves the operating rod which acts on the bolt carrier. The bang system is different: the muzzle trap itself is mobile, and the muzzle gases cause it to move forwards. This pulls on an operating rod, which is connected to a lever. One end of this lever hits the bolt carrier backwards when the other end of the lever is pulled forwards by the muzzle trap.

Interestingly, Vollmer's design for an assault rifle from the 1930s uses the bang system, and fired a 7.something intermediate cartridge developed by Geco from an open bolt.

Panzerknacker
09-18-2007, 08:02 AM
2. The annular gas piston around the barrel is NOT the same as the Bang system. In the former, the muzzle trap directs muzzle gases backwards around the barrel which act on an annular piston. This piston moves the operating rod which acts on the bolt carrier. The bang system is different: the muzzle trap itself is mobile, and the muzzle gases cause it to move forwards. This pulls on an operating rod, which is connected to a lever. One end of this lever hits the bolt carrier backwards when the other end of the lever is pulled forwards by the muzzle trap.

Then Is more complicated than I tough. :roll:

bt3au
09-18-2007, 06:36 PM
A terrible and sad day for free men everywhere. When I was about 15, some friends were planning to move to Australia for employment opportunities. They had offered me the chance to go along, and live there too.My parents were okay with it,and I was looking forward to going, when they changed their minds, as they would not be able to bring their firearms with them. He made a pointed statement to the immigration official concerning this, (I was not allowed to know what he said,He was of Scot ancestry, and tolerated Government not at all.)long story short, I didnt get to go, and I agree with the friend's decision.
Did your government compensate you for your weapons? or did they do the Jackbooted thug routine?

yeh they paid money but it didnt compensate :evil:lost a chinese made SKS which was a fun weapon to shoot, as well as an M1 Carbine :cry:

bt3au
09-18-2007, 06:38 PM
Then Is more complicated than I tough. :roll:

Germans are good engineers but they LOVE to complicate things engineering for the sake of engineering

Panzerknacker
09-18-2007, 06:53 PM
yeh they paid money but it didnt compensate :evil:lost a chinese made SKS which was a fun weapon to shoot, as well as an M1 Carbine
Well...that sucks.


Germans are good engineers but they LOVE to complicate things engineering for the sake of engineering

Certainly sometimes was in that way.

G-41 Mauser.

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/vapen/d/rifle/03997.jpg

tankgeezer
09-18-2007, 08:40 PM
yeh they paid money but it didnt compensate :evil:lost a chinese made SKS which was a fun weapon to shoot, as well as an M1 Carbine :cry:
I have a problem with a gov't that feels it is more important than the people that make up the country. i would always be suspect of a gov't that would do such a horrible thing to its people.I hope there comes a day when those people are put out of office, and replaced with people who understand freedom, and that only free people own the weapons of their choosing, not because they are permitted, but because they will fight for their freedom.There is no contempt deep enough to describe such a Gov't.

tankgeezer
09-18-2007, 08:43 PM
Quote: "Germans are good engineers but they LOVE to complicate things engineering for the sake of engineering "

The rule of thumb for German engineering is, "if 2 parts are good, 5 parts are better"

Panzerknacker
09-18-2007, 09:37 PM
The rule of thumb for German engineering is, "if 2 parts are good, 5 parts are better"

;)

"Karabiner" G-43 used in german sniper training camp.

http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0055BA58DF030103009D21A8C00D0A000000&inf=354920&outf=456880&funktion=play250k

Splinter54
09-19-2007, 09:12 AM
The rule of thumb for German engineering is, "if 2 parts are good, 5 parts are better"

Here in Germany (at least where i come from), there is still a very common saying: 'Lieber mehr als weniger - wegnehmen kann man ja immernoch etwas.', which has pretty much the meaning like 'Bigger is better' - translated: 'More is better than less - you can still take things away later'

But thank god, the majority of engineers think other ways today ^^

Very fine pictures and informations! Keep it going please! :D

tankgeezer
09-19-2007, 11:23 AM
Here in Germany (at least where i come from), there is still a very common saying: 'Lieber mehr als weniger - wegnehmen kann man ja immernoch etwas.', which has pretty much the meaning like 'Bigger is better' - translated: 'More is better than less - you can still take things away later'

But thank god, the majority of engineers think other ways today ^^

Very fine pictures and informations! Keep it going please! :D
Oh Geez,thats a great one. I'll send that to my brothers the engineers. They'll love it.. Thanks.

Man of Stoat
09-20-2007, 01:42 AM
G-41 Walther.
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/vapen/d/rifle/03997.jpg
See amendments

Panzerknacker
09-30-2007, 04:36 PM
More images of the G-41 here:http://www.gewehr43.com/battle.html

Splinter54
10-04-2007, 03:06 PM
Parting from this page, there are massive informations and pictures about the StG44 - also the 'shoot around the corner'-Adapts (forgot the name - the Israelians developped some guns which do that nowadays)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73139&page=58

Also a MkB43 with integrated Barrel-Grenade-Launcher
Click (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31944&d=1186308703)

Panzerknacker
10-04-2007, 06:19 PM
Nice, It look the same as the K98K grenade launcher.

Tony Williams
10-09-2007, 02:14 PM
well i know about the g41 rifle of the 7,92mm and about the mp44 which used the 7.92mm kurz . the mp44 was called as the main german army submachine gun and not as an assault rifle as we all know . the reason unknown :confused::confused::confused::confused:

The designation was later changed to StG 44 = Sturmgewehr = storm or assault rifle. It was the first gun to be so called, and led directly to the term "assault rifle" being widely adopted for this type of weapon.

bas
10-22-2007, 06:45 PM
well i know about the g41 rifle of the 7,92mm and about the mp44 which used the 7.92mm kurz . the mp44 was called as the main german army submachine gun and not as an assault rifle as we all know . the reason unknown .

Not at all the reason for the name change from MKb.42 (Automatic carbine) to MP.43/1 (Automatic pistol) is well known: politics! Hitler didn't approve of the project so to keep it going they convinced Speer to let them finish the guns that were in production and issue them on a limited basis as submachine guns.

However the Armies goal of replacing the Kar98k with the new automatic carbine never changed and it wasn't until production was well underway that Hitler finally recognised the superority of the new gun that the designation was changed (coinciding with the name change from G.43 to K.43) to StG.44 to reflect it was an entirely new weapon which would re-define how the German infantry squad was formed.

Of course there were never enough MP.43 / 44 / StG.44's or ammo for them produced to realise this.

Panzerknacker
11-09-2007, 08:42 AM
FG-42 automatic rifle.

In the strange world of Nazi Germany internal strife and rivalry flourished (was even fostered), and in no sphere was this internal feuding more rife than between the German army and the Luftwaffe. By 1942 the Luftwaffe were encroaching on the preserves of the army to an alarming extent for no other reason than petty wrangling, and whenthe army decided to adopt a selfloading rifle the Luftwaffe decided that it too had to have such a weapon. Instead of following the path followed by the army with its adoption of the kurz round, the Lufwaffe decided instead toretain the standard 7.92-mm (0.312-in)rifle cartridge and asked Rheinmetall to design a weapon to arm the Luftwaffe parachute troops, the Fallschirmjäger.Rheinmetall accordingly designed and produced one of the more remarkable small-arms designs of World War
II.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/545/fg4237mt.jpg

This was the 7.92-mm (0.312-in) Fallschirmjägergewehr42 or FG 42, a weapon that somehow managed to compress the action required to produce automatic fire into a volume little larger than that of a conventional bolt action. The FG 42 was certainly an eye-catching weapon, for the first examples had a sloping pistol grip, an oddly-shaped plastic butt and a prominent bipod on the forestock, To cap it all there was a large muzzle attachment and provision for mounting a spike bayonet. The ammunition feedwas from a side-mounted box maga-zine on the left, and the mechanism
was gas-operated.

All in all the FG 42 was a complex weapon, but was notinnovative as it wasan amalgam ofseveral existing systems.Needless to say the Luftwaffe took to the FG 42 avidly and asked for more. They did not get them, for it soon transpired that the novelties of the FG 42 had to be paid for in a very complexmanufacturing process that consumedan inordinate amount of time and production facilities.

Second Model:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6565/fg4252bl.jpg

Thus supply was slow and erratic, and in an attempt to
speed production some simplifications were added. A simpler wooden butt was introduced and the pistol grip was replaced by a more orthodox component.The bipod was moved forward tothe muzzle and other short-cuts were introduced.
It was to no avail, for by the time the war ended only about 7,000 had been made. But it was after the war that the FG 42 made its biggest mark, for many of its design features were incorporated into later designs.

Perhaps the most important of these was the gas-operated mechanism which could fire from a closed bolt position for single-shot fire and from an open bolt for automatic fire, all compressed into a relatively small space.

One thing that was not copied was theside-mounted magazine. This provedto be less than a success in action for not only did it snag on clothing or otheritems but it tended to unbalance the weapon when fired. The FG 42 was a highly advanced design for its day and it incorporatedmany of the features now used on many modern assault rifles. Typical of these was the use of a 'straight line' layout from butt to muzzle and the gas operated mechanism already mentioned.

FG42

Calibre: 7.92 mm
Length: 940 mm
Length of barrel: 502 mm
Weight: 4.53 kg
Muzzle velocity: 761 m/s (2,500 ft)
Magazine: 20-round box
Cyclic rate of fire: 750-800 rpm

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2714/fg4248ef.jpg

Source: Enciclopedya Weapons WW2

Tony Williams
11-09-2007, 02:07 PM
The problem with the FG 42 is that it was too light to be controllable in automatic fire, given the power of the cartridge. I have fired one (semi-auto only) and, believe me, it kicks!

Panzerknacker
11-09-2007, 04:25 PM
I believe you :rolleyes: its projectile is not called "heavy pointed bullet" in vain.

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1237/dibujotz8.jpg

bwing55543
11-09-2007, 09:28 PM
I know the sloped pistol grip was supposed to help the paratroopers fire while on their way down.

Call of Duty 3 actually simulates the kick of the FG quite well. In the game, it only fires in fully-automatic mode, so it is impossible to keep the rifle steady; only 3 shot bursts are recommended if you want to keep your shots on your mark.

There was also a scoped variant of the FG-42, which appears in the game as well. I do know the FG would've been switched to semi mode in real life because an automatic weapon would be pretty useless as a sniper's weapon, especially if it has the FG's level of recoil.

http://gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/fg42/fg42_m3_01w.jpg

Cuts
11-10-2007, 02:21 AM
The problem with the FG 42 is that it was too light to be controllable in automatic fire, given the power of the cartridge. That's not a problem unique to the FG, all rifles firing full power carts are generally not controllable in full auto.


I know the sloped pistol grip was supposed to help the paratroopers fire while on their way down.
...and then he woke up & the coffee was cold.


Call of Duty 3 actually simulates the kick of the FG quite well. In the game, it only fires in fully-automatic mode, so it is impossible to keep the rifle steady; only 3 shot bursts are recommended if you want to keep your shots on your mark.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4900/6938143063621843440ed59zk3.gif

Splinter54
11-10-2007, 07:18 PM
I know the sloped pistol grip was supposed to help the paratroopers fire while on their way down.

I want to see the paratrooper who fires a weapon while he is descending from the skies and then throws his weapon away, because it's pistol grip is not practicable on the ground :mrgreen:

PS: Hope you all see the Irony?

bwing55543
11-11-2007, 01:16 PM
I want to see the paratrooper who fires a weapon while he is descending from the skies and then throws his weapon away, because it's pistol grip is not practicable on the ground :mrgreen:

I completely agree with you on that part. ;)

Man of Stoat
11-12-2007, 02:39 AM
Well, these German paratroopers must've been supermen, managing to fire a weapon on the way down that was securely stowed in a canister under a different parachute...

Panzerknacker
11-12-2007, 07:27 AM
Some FJ jumped with MP-40 s in the chest, no idea about the FG-42, for the time 1942 and on most of the FJ ops were glider borne and no deliver by parachutes.

micmacman
11-12-2007, 09:06 AM
just a question,didnt they prefer to do jumps under the protection of darkness?

and if so, knowing this,why would they go to the trouble of thought,design and manufacture of a attribute to the rifle that may or may not aid in firing the weapon on a parachute decent,i would think that firing your weapon on decent would be the equivalent to telling them ,"here i am shoot me before i hit the ground" as the muzzle flash would be a targe to aim for

Man of Stoat
11-12-2007, 09:13 AM
No, that they didn't drop at night , they didn't design it to be fired on a parachute descent (it was securely packed in a canister under a different parachute), whoever posted that had been at the funny tobacco and/or playing too many computer games.

pdf27
11-12-2007, 12:31 PM
whoever posted that had been at the funny tobacco and/or playing too many computer games.
Someone's been listening to Ironman (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/index.php/IRONMAN) again ;)

Nickdfresh
11-12-2007, 12:47 PM
I thought they just threw down potato mashers as they dropped... :p

In any case, I think the Fallshirmjager were all but done with airborne drops by the time the FG42 was adopted...

Nickdfresh
11-12-2007, 12:52 PM
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/index.php/IRONMAN

LMAO! :D The mother of all ownings...

bas
11-12-2007, 01:41 PM
No, that they didn't drop at night , they didn't design it to be fired on a parachute descent (it was securely packed in a canister under a different parachute), whoever posted that had been at the funny tobacco and/or playing too many computer games.

Stoat, I'll have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure that the intention had been for the FJ to jump with the FG.42. That was one of the reasons it had to be compact and light.

The idea for the FG.42 came out of the hammering the FJ got on Crete where they were often picked out of the sky by the defenders and those that did land alive were too seperated from the weapon canisters that they had to fend for themselves armed with SMG's and pistols.

Of course by the time the FG.42 went into production combat drops had pretty much stopped.

Cuts
11-12-2007, 11:38 PM
Right, lets put this bollocks to bed.

1. Safety.
Anyone who has taken part in military parachute operations will realise that the priority is to land in one piece.

2. Altitude.
Operational lobs are done at low level to ensure that time from exit to landing is as short as possible, this is specially true of the FJ.
There are a couple of famous photos of FJ with MPs on their chest, but it was a rare occurrence to jump with them although it looks good in propaganda pics.
There IS NOT TIME to release a weapon from it's stowage, make ready, acquire a tgt and shoot.

3. Eqpt.
The rigging lines of the FJ parachutes used by the Germans in WWII (mainly the RZ-16 and -20) converged not onto lift webs as those of the Allies, but onto a metal ring which was attached to the harness via straps or hemp rope to the shoulders and hips.
The parachutists' position was therefore not vertical as in modern designs, but perpendicular to this connection, and the troops came down in a 'crawl' position, being trained to roll on landing
This is the reason they were issued elbow and knee pads.


Come up with as many Boy's Own Paper stories of derring-do and leaping into the wide blue yonder with a PAK between the teeth as you like, but those are the facts.

Man of Stoat
11-13-2007, 02:52 AM
To add to what cuts said, some of the FJ drops were done below 100 meters if I remember correctly , which was just enough time for the parachute to open and slow the descent before barrelling in.

Look carefully at archive footage of FJ drops. As cuts says, they actually hang from the parachute at a distinctly forward sloping angle. you will also see them flailing their arms and legs in an attempt to hit the ground facing the right direction so that they can roll forwards (this is because they did not have the lift webs on the shoulders so could not steer their parachutes).

So, in the extremely few seconds from leaving the extremely tiny door of a JU52 supposedly with a full-sized rifle strapped to you, being suspended by a single point between your shoulder blades underneath a parachute, flailing your arms and legs to face the direction of drift, carrying out a forward roll when you hit the deck, exactly when and how are you going to unhitch a full-sized weapon or indeed any weapon, aim it, acquire a target and fire at it, and not end up impaled on said weapon on landing?

bas
11-13-2007, 03:11 AM
From "Technical Demands for the Development of a Paratroop Rifle, Specification LC-6"
1. Not to exceed 1 metre in length
2. Not to be heavier than the standard K98k rifle.
3. Calibre to be the standard service cartridge
4. To have detachable magazines, one with a minimum of 10 rounds capacity and another with 30 rounds.
5. To have selective fire capability using the simplest mechanism and to fire from a closed bolt in semi-auto fire and an open bolt in full-auto fire
6. To be free from stoppages
7. To have a 1.5 power telescopic sight with recoil proof optics
8. To be equiped with a grenade launcher
9. To be equiped with a bayonet, preferrably attached and folding
10. To be capable of being used as a club in close combat.
11. No necessity for a removable barrel.
12. The barrel must have a life of at least 2,000 rounds even when fired in burst mode.
13. To be provided with a collapsible grip for the left hand so that the weapon will not entangle clothing or equipment when jumping
14. To be provided with a folding bipod for firing from the prone position.
15. The butt must be designed to absorb recoil.
16. The weapon must be stable and not jump around when firing.
17. Protection must be provided against dirt entering the mechanism.
18. The weapon must not be sensitive to shocks and drops when in use.

Edit: I should add that I'm not suggesting that the intention was that the rifle was to be used during the desent, just that they planned to jump with them rather than have the rifles drop with the canisters.

pdf27
11-13-2007, 12:32 PM
To be fair, that wouldn't be the first totally insane technical specification the Germans ever came up with during WW2...

Nickdfresh
11-13-2007, 01:14 PM
...

Edit: I should add that I'm not suggesting that the intention was that the rifle was to be used during the desent, just that they planned to jump with them rather than have the rifles drop with the canisters.


This is correct. It WAS designed to give German paratroops access to firepower AFTER they landed, as their experience on Crete was that soldiers tend to get shot more often when going up against infantry with rifles and machineguns at rifle range, while using only pistols and a few machinepistols while desperately trying to collect their weapons canisters...

The FG42 was designed to give a few FJ a stop gap automatic weapon, with superior firepower, while the rest collected their weapons from canisters...

But as I think everyone should know by now, use of this weapon on airborne drops was rare since the FJ began to take on a role of elite light infantry in Italy and Normandy by early 1944. I would be interested in the overall effectiveness of the rifle in combat and the ratio of the FG42 to the numbers of KAR98s or the MP40s, and other semi auto rifles issued to the FJ by the end of 1943...

Cuts
11-13-2007, 01:33 PM
True PDF, but I also think it would be interesting to see the 'Tech Demands' or specs in the original German, or better yet a copy of the doc itself to see what word or phrase was used for 'jumping.'

Unfortunately, as is still the case today, sometimes eqpt specs are written up by people with little or no practical experience of the use of such eqpt in realistic conditions, eg. the exaggerated and often misplaced input on the SA80 project contra the rejection of such for the same on the AK.

bas
11-13-2007, 01:46 PM
To be fair, that wouldn't be the first totally insane technical specification the Germans ever came up with during WW2...

Very true, but one of the extra ordinary aspects of the FG.42 is just how close Louis Strange got to meeting the requirements.

Cuts; those specifications are taken directly from the book "Death From Above The German FG42 Paratroop Rifle" By Thomas B Dugelby and R Blake Stevens. Unfortunatly it does not contain many details of how they were deployed.

I believe that the FJ only used the FG.42 in two combat jumps; the raid on Tito's hideout and the failed drop behind Allies lines in Normandy. The other uses of the FG-42 were in glider operations and infantry action in Italy, France and the defence of Berlin.

Cuts
11-13-2007, 03:18 PM
Thanks Bas, I've not yet got around to buying that particular book, I'll have to do so sooner or later. :)

It's odd that the bumf specified a collapsable grip for the left hand. I wonder if they meant on the forend or the butt - or could it perhaps be a mistranslation for the zweiben ?

pdf27
11-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Very true, but one of the extra ordinary aspects of the FG.42 is just how close Louis Strange got to meeting the requirements.
No arguament here that it wasn't well suited to the requirements given - I just think that no sane human being who had a clue about what it was to be actually used for would have ever come up with those requirements...

bas
11-13-2007, 04:31 PM
It's odd that the bumf specified a collapsable grip for the left hand. I wonder if they meant on the forend or the butt - or could it perhaps be a mistranslation for the zweiben ?

I thought that odd too, maybe they were envisioning something like the MP.40's magazine well / forward grip? Or the ERMA EMP? But that is odd given the size of the 7.92x57 service round. Other than that I can't think of any standard German small arm with a protruding left hand grip.

Either way I doubt that they were refering to the bi-pod as that is covered in the next requirement.

Nickdfresh
11-14-2007, 09:52 PM
I dug out an older gun book. It seems that only about 7,000 of these rifles were ever produced (Hogg and Reed), although the Allies may have overestimated the number issued since a good number were captured in Italy and Normandy...

Panzerknacker
11-30-2007, 07:34 PM
MKb 42(H)

The original Haenel produced prototype weapons incorporated many of the features of earlier Schmeisser designs, such as the MP38 and MP40 submachineguns. The prototypes featured a simple gas operation system with the gas tube and pistol positioned above the barrel.






The rifle used a striker firing mechanism and was fired from an open bolt and used a tilting block locking mechanism.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/701/mkb42hfu0.jpg

The gas piston extension, when forced rearward by the expanding propellant gases, would lift the bolt out of its locked position, and carry it to the rear for the extraction and ejection cycles, and then, under pressure from the operating spring, pull the bolt forward, strip a fresh round into the chamber, and force the bolt downward into its locking recess in the receiver. The cocking handle was placed on the left side of the receiver so as to enable the operator to recharge the rifle with the left hand while not disturbing aiming. The 30 round detachable box magazine was intended to serve as a firing support in the prone position.





The receiver was entirely enclosed in the rifle's sheet metal main group housing, and was secured by means of locating pins and indentation into which the sheet metal was pressed. Disassembly of the receiver from the housing was not contemplated, and required the destruction of the weapon to achieve.


The fire control group was contained in a stamped sheet metal housing hinged to the bottom of the receiver, which also served as the trigger guard and pistol grip. A cross-bolt type of selector was used for semiautomatic and automatic firing modes. When the bolt was pushed to the left, the letter D (for Dauerfeuer or full auto firing) was exposed. When pushed to the right, the letter E (for Einzelfeuer, or single shot firing) was exposed. The safety system on the prototypes was an L-shaped notch in the rear of the cocking handle slot and a forward cut out, thus permitting the bolt to be held in the rear safe or forward locked positions.
Barrel length was about fifteen inches ending in a threaded muzzle with a protective muzzle nut. Handguards were of formed sheet metal held in place by a friction fit.
Based on experiences with the Mkb 42 (H) prototypes, the Heereswaffenamt mandated various changes to the design. These included provisions for mounting the standard service bayonet, as well as increasing the diameter and pitch of the muzzle threads. By November 1942, deliveries of the new MKb were reaching troops in significant numbers. Initial reports from the field were very favorable, with the only negative comments being the high prone firing position necessitated by the long magazine and the brilliant muzzle flash during night firing. Modifications to the MKb 42(H) also included a spring loaded ejection port cover (much like that found on M16 rifles) to keep debris out of the mechanism, and telescope mounting rails on the rear sight block. A total of 11,853 Mkb 42(H)'s were produced between November 1942 and September 1943 when MKb production gave way to the improved MP43 series.

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february00.html

bas
12-01-2007, 03:21 PM
Panzerknacker that article contains some noteable errors:


features of earlier Schmeisser designs, such as the MP38 and MP40 submachineguns
Hugo Schmeisser had next to nothing to do with the design of the MP.38 and MP.40


Based on experiences with the Mkb 42 (H) prototypes, the Heereswaffenamt mandated various changes to the design. These included provisions for mounting the standard service bayonet
The MKb.42(H) was the last of the series to feature a bayonet lug.


By November 1942, deliveries of the new MKb were reaching troops in significant numbers
Is incorrect, frontline trials of the MKb.42 started in April 1943 at which point it was already obsolete because of the MP.41/1. Only 2,000 rifles were delivered in April.


reports from the field were very favorable
Actual reports were extremely unfavourable with comments of soldiers dropping them in favour of captured Russian guns. It seems that the open bolt design was especially prone to jamming in battlefield conditions.

Production schedule of the MKb.42(H):
Nov '42 ........25
Dec '42 ........91
Jan '43 .......500
Feb '43 ....1,217
Mar '43 .......900
Apr '43 .....2,179
May '43 ....3,044
Jun '43 .....1,898
Jul '43 ......1,423
Aug '43 .......366
Sept '43 ......190

Panzerknacker
12-01-2007, 06:12 PM
Panzerknacker that article contains some noteable errors:



Sorry about that.


Actual reports were extremely unfavourable with comments of soldiers dropping them in favour of captured Russian guns. It seems that the open bolt design was especially prone to jamming in battlefield conditions.


Interesting, is the first time I read that the MKb 42 wasnt good at all.
In this video the MKb 42 is briefly seen in hans of SS paratroopers. Minute 1:11 to 1:14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDHvwpoQXo

bas
12-02-2007, 02:23 AM
Panzer, pages 161 - 163 of Sturmgewehr by Hans-Dieter Handrich has translated exerpts of the reports sent back in August 1943 on the front line trials of the MKb.42(H).

If you've got an interest in the history of the StG.44 I would strongly recommend this book, it blows several previous myths/theories on these guns out of the water.

Panzerknacker
12-03-2007, 05:41 PM
So...the well known history of Army offices demanding more "new rifles" for the Eastern front were not based in the Mkb 42.

bas
12-03-2007, 07:30 PM
So...the well known history of Army offices demanding more "new rifles" for the Eastern front were not based in the Mkb 42.


Correct.

On the other hand the MP.43 was very well received by troops.

There is a myth that Hitler approved the MKb.42 for production following a demonstration of SS soldiers on exercise armed with the new carbine. The truth is that while the demonstration did occur, Hitler was not present.

The real reasons for Hitler finally giving his consent to full scale production of the MP.44 aren't known yet, but it is suspected that Himmler had a big influence on his decision.

Also actual delivery of MP.44's to the front was not hampered by gun production... It was the production of ammunition and magazines that restricted the number of guns that could be issued. So while a soldier was supposed to be issued with 6 magazines, it is not uncommon for them to only get three.

Panzerknacker
04-01-2008, 06:46 PM
Volksgewehr, peoples assault rifle.

Description: One of the last Nazi weapons. Fast and rude rifle. Called "Gustloff" too.
Other Names: Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5 or Versuchs-Gerat 1-5
"The VGI-5 is an unusual and rare firearm that only saw use in the late stages of WWII as part of the Volksturm series of weapons, and was used on the Eastern front as German Armies and Home Guard fought to defend their homeland from the onslaught of the Red Army.
Externally, the weapon appears nearly identical to the MP 35, but is much cruder in construction. The VGI-5 was made as a delayed blowback-operated semi-automatic carbine firing the 7.92mm Kurz (short) round. Cheap, easy to operate, and easy to manufacture, the VGI-5 played a near-forgotten part in WWII.
The rifle was quickly developed by Chief Designer Herr Barnitzke of Gusloft-Werke as part of the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm of 1944 and was used by the Home Guard (Volkssturn) and possibly by the postwar Werewolf Nazi guerrilla movement. Only small production occurred from January 1945."

Cal: 7.92x33mm
Operating System: Gas delayed blow back Selective Fire
Weigth (Empty): 4.27Kg
Lenght: 960mm
Barrel: 380mm
Capacity: 32 Rounds (StG44 Magazines)

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/Gewehre/Volksgewehr.jpg

Major von Mauser
04-01-2008, 08:07 PM
I'd be interesting to see more information on this, as it is only the second time I have heard about it.

Nickdfresh
04-01-2008, 08:39 PM
I'd be interesting to see more information on this, as it is only the second time I have heard about it.

Same here. I've read on it here before, and in one of Ian Hogg's classic book on firearms...

But I'd like to know the average German militiaman's thoughts on how accurate and sturdy the weapon was...

imi
06-27-2008, 06:32 AM
Panzerknacker:interesting,that gun I never heard of it!

Panzerknacker
06-27-2008, 08:40 AM
You mean the Volksgewehr?

In this video there is also a brief sight, the VG in hands of Volkssturman.

http://i28.tinypic.com/de5qgj.jpg

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=E9l-3sYLjAI

artmiser
06-27-2008, 09:46 AM
With the size of that muzzle, MG-34, but it doesnt look like he has 24 pnds of MG on his shoulder, spare barrel maybe?

imi
06-28-2008, 11:44 AM
Yes the Volksgewehr,that's totally new for me,I read many books of the WW2,and guns but I never heard of this gun!Thanx the video!

genkideskan
06-29-2008, 07:40 AM
It is a very interesting gun, made for mass production. The gun was made like an automatic pistol with a slide ( receiver ) that covers the barrel and move back and forth until firing. The spring was placed arround the barrel.
Single shot and full auto was possible. The accuracy was good because of the hammer and firing pin construction.
The locking mechanism was curious. The barrel has 4 holes and when fired the gas filled the room between barrel and slide with high pressure- so the breech couldnt move back. An well calculated gas escape hole let the gas out until the bullet leave the barrel.
Find enclosed an explosive drawing for a better understanding of the function.



http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/339/vgexpldrawli0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



.

genkideskan
06-29-2008, 08:38 AM
Panzerknacker - the film showing VGs is a very nice find. The link leads me to the startpage. Couldt you please check the link and send a new link or the title of the film ???

Thanks

Panzerknacker
06-29-2008, 09:21 AM
The youtube vid is Ok, but no worry here you got another link for the same Wochenschau.http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0062198378030103009D21A8C09300000000&inf=355920&outf=425440&funktion=play250k

genkideskan
06-29-2008, 10:15 AM
Thank you very much Panzerknacker

Here you will find some more informations about the VG 1-5

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&p=1224633

http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/36/335715-m7757783.html

imi
06-29-2008, 10:54 AM
genkideskan:interesting image thanx.This weapon look like to me is too weak,isnt it?
I think the mp40&Stg 44 are stronger systems.

genkideskan
06-29-2008, 12:27 PM
Well it is well made and the important parts are strong and reliable.
The look suffered from the cheap riveted stock and outside finish.
Here is a color picture of a rifle in good condition, looks not that bad :mrgreen:


http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9535/colvg15jt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Coutesy: WTS Koblenz

.

imi
06-29-2008, 12:42 PM
this one look better ;)

Major Walter Schmidt
06-29-2008, 11:18 PM
Does the Mauser M715 Schnellfeuer count as a machinepistole?

Man of Stoat
06-30-2008, 03:42 AM
The accuracy was good because of the hammer and firing pin construction.


.

Please explain how the hammer and firing pin construction can improve accuracy, and how this is more important than the bedding, barrel mounting, and sighting arrangement

genkideskan
06-30-2008, 12:07 PM
Because I fire it :mrgreen:

Man of Stoat
07-02-2008, 02:23 AM
No, you will have to do better than that...

Man of Stoat
07-02-2008, 02:24 AM
Seriously now, the sights are mounted on a movable slide which has to have a reasonable working tolerance around a fixed barrel.

From a purely mechanical perspective, this can never be accurate in rifle terms. Ever.

genkideskan
07-02-2008, 05:40 AM
<Theoretically - YES . But than every selfloading pistol using a full length slide must be a hell of inaccurate too.
Front and rear sight are fixed to the slide. The trick is that all moveable parts "set" to the same point after firing.
This "rifle" was made to fire at close range - no doubt. Nobody wouldt have the idea to use it in a what ever long range or even sniper role.

Man of Stoat
07-02-2008, 08:01 AM
Yes, in rifle terms semiautomatic pistols using a slide are incredibly inaccurate. 2 inches at 25 m is excellent for a handgun, and 4 inches is more than adequate. a really crap battle rifle will do 1.5 inches at 25 m, and a good one will do better than 0.5 inches.

You cannot seriously be telling me that the rattly slide on the VG, made to emergency tolerances comes back into alignment with the barrel in all six axes, and particularly in the axis parallel to the bore, in the same way that they do on a dropping barrel pistol (in which they are positively wedged together by a cam/swinging link). it is not engineeringly possible.

SS Ouche-Vittes
07-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Volksgewehr, peoples assault rifle.

Description: One of the last Nazi weapons. Fast and rude rifle. Called "Gustloff" too.
Other Names: Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5 or Versuchs-Gerat 1-5
"The VGI-5 is an unusual and rare firearm that only saw use in the late stages of WWII as part of the Volksturm series of weapons, and was used on the Eastern front as German Armies and Home Guard fought to defend their homeland from the onslaught of the Red Army.
Externally, the weapon appears nearly identical to the MP 35, but is much cruder in construction. The VGI-5 was made as a delayed blowback-operated semi-automatic carbine firing the 7.92mm Kurz (short) round. Cheap, easy to operate, and easy to manufacture, the VGI-5 played a near-forgotten part in WWII.
The rifle was quickly developed by Chief Designer Herr Barnitzke of Gusloft-Werke as part of the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm of 1944 and was used by the Home Guard (Volkssturn) and possibly by the postwar Werewolf Nazi guerrilla movement. Only small production occurred from January 1945."

Cal: 7.92x33mm
Operating System: Gas delayed blow back Selective Fire
Weigth (Empty): 4.27Kg
Lenght: 960mm
Barrel: 380mm
Capacity: 32 Rounds (StG44 Magazines)

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/Gewehre/Volksgewehr.jpg

they should of also made volkspanzers. Cheap tanks to produce that anyone could of operated. Little armor but with a PAK gun and with a small profile.

Major Walter Schmidt
07-14-2008, 04:50 PM
this might work:D

http://hsgalleries.com/images/jagerwagenaj_4.jpg
http://hsgalleries.com/images/jagerwagenaj_2.jpg

here
http://hsgalleries.com/jagdwagenaj_1.htm

pdf27
07-14-2008, 05:02 PM
they should of also made volkspanzers. Cheap tanks to produce that anyone could of operated. Little armor but with a PAK gun and with a small profile.
Sounds awfully like a Panzer IV...

RifleMan20
07-15-2008, 05:32 AM
this might work:D

http://hsgalleries.com/images/jagerwagenaj_4.jpg
http://hsgalleries.com/images/jagerwagenaj_2.jpg

here
http://hsgalleries.com/jagdwagenaj_1.htm

Yeah, but maybe add a flak88 in the back and let er rip.

Actually, it might flip the car. I can see it now, a crazy flipping buggy with a 88 in it and 2 mg42s, that would definitely scare the enemies.

Major Walter Schmidt
07-15-2008, 10:45 AM
too bad its fictional.

christophe1992
07-16-2008, 08:10 PM
its a g41 very unrealiable. g43 was much better and effective. both based on the svt 38 and svt 40 semi rifles.

Man of Stoat
07-17-2008, 01:36 AM
No they are not! The gas system on the G43 was robbed from the SVT, nothing else.

christophe1992
07-18-2008, 12:51 AM
No they are not! The gas system on the G43 was robbed from the SVT, nothing else.

why do i always need to argue with you :p
ofcourse the germans didnt use al the things of the svt.
i m maybe young not stupid

bas
07-20-2008, 09:41 PM
why do i always need to argue with you :p
ofcourse the germans didnt use al the things of the svt.
i m maybe young not stupid

Maybe you want to read what you post because Stoat only picked on one of your mistakes.


its a g41 very unrealiable. g43 was much better and effective. both based on the svt 38 and svt 40 semi rifles.

Is also woefully wrong. The G.41 has nothing in common with the SVT-40.

Major Walter Schmidt
07-24-2008, 05:42 PM
this might be a bit offtopic but does anyone have top/side (i googled and found side views but not top views) views of a mauser M712? or C96?
thanks.

imi
07-25-2008, 05:42 AM
Major:I saw some picture the Waffen SS is used the "schnellfeuer",but the only problem this gun is, too much the recoil power,and the gun would be inaccuracy
Nice gun!
http://i37.tinypic.com/2m7yzx1.jpg

Nickdfresh
07-25-2008, 09:39 AM
this might work:D

http://hsgalleries.com/images/jagerwagenaj_4.jpg
http://hsgalleries.com/images/jagerwagenaj_2.jpg

here
http://hsgalleries.com/jagdwagenaj_1.htm

Ha! May parents also had a 1979 Volkswagen Beetle convertible, sans of the camouflage and MG34s...

:)

Major Walter Schmidt
07-25-2008, 09:45 AM
Ha! May parents also had a 1979 Volkswagen Beetle convertible, sans of the camouflage and MG34s...

:)

All you need now is to convert the back window to 30's style and replace the Chassis with a Kubelwagen:D

Nickdfresh
07-25-2008, 10:03 AM
All you need now is to convert the back window to 30's style and replace the Chassis with a Kubelwagen:D

I believe it pretty much was the same chassis. Of course, they gained more horsepower over the years and became mildly more refined...

SS Ouche-Vittes
07-25-2008, 05:18 PM
I saw a vid of the c96 shooting auto, the recoil doesn't look that bad. Here's a pic of it

Major Walter Schmidt
07-26-2008, 01:46 AM
Are there any top-views of these mausers?

flamethrowerguy
07-26-2008, 12:32 PM
Major:I saw some picture the Waffen SS is used the "schnellfeuer",but the only problem this gun is, too much the recoil power,and the gun would be inaccuracy
Nice gun!
http://i37.tinypic.com/2m7yzx1.jpg

Got a C96 as a soft-air version (-:

Panzerknacker
02-05-2009, 03:56 PM
The FG 42 in action !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz-FS45mEvM

RifleMan20
02-05-2009, 07:36 PM
Oooo, how nice, kind of fast isn't it.

Major Walter Schmidt
02-05-2009, 07:40 PM
It also had a side magazine, scope, and a pike bayonet, not to mention the bipod. What more do you want? *A cheap pricetag?


*that was the ultimate problem with the FG42

Panzerknacker
02-06-2009, 08:39 AM
The rate of fire is awesome indeed, sound like 900 or 1000 rounds per minute.

RifleMan20
02-06-2009, 02:04 PM
The guy looked like he wanted to go full auto but it had some recoil.

Nick
02-23-2009, 12:09 PM
The G-41 has to be one of my fav rifles but i never knew it was desighned to be used as as a bolt action if the automatic system failed...

Nick.

Schuultz
02-23-2009, 10:59 PM
G43 is my favorite rifle, hands down. The StG44 is pretty nice, too, but there are no (legal) versions of it anywhere in my price range, so I'll have to pass on that :D
It would suck with a 5-shot magazine, anyway. Stupid regulations :neutral:

Panzerknacker
03-02-2009, 06:06 PM
Found this excellent report:


Origin of the 7.92x33 and 7,62x39 cartrigdes:



According to the most reliable German sources of information the original 7.9 x 33 mm assault rifle was design of HUGO SCHMEISSER, designer of the very first submachine gun model: MP 18-I. (Earlier Italian OFFICINE VILLAR-PEROSA Modelo 1915 was nothing more but a scaled-down version of FIAT machine gun). Early prototypes of Schmeisser-designed rifle were known as MASCHINENKARABINER 42 (H). They had an action about similar to that of Czechian BRNO/ British BREN light machine guns, appreciated by Hugo Schmeisser. Brno guns were produced also for German Wehrmacht since 1938, when an "artifical republic" of Czecho-Slovakia was annulled and became a part of the Great German Reich as a Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.


The stamped steel construction of German MKb 42s was designed by a firm MERZ-WERKEN in Frankfurt a.M., a manufacturer of typewriters and cash registers (without any previous connection to the gunsmithing but with an experience from the most complicated steel stampings of 1941 - 42 era). Merz-Werken made the outer casing, and a famed firearms manufacturer C.G. HAENEL in Suhl made the active parts of MKb 42 (H). Hugo Schmeisser was a leader of a designer group in Haenel plant. That machine carbine was like a cross-breed of a light machine gun and submachine gun, chambered for the intermediate-sized cartridge of earlier design. The carbine shot "by open bolt", like most of the submachine guns then and today, or it was a "slam firer".


Another German firm WAFFENFABRIK CARL WALTHER at Zella-Mehlis made also prototype rifles chambered for 7.9 x 33 mm POLTE cartridges, into the Merz-designed casing and with about the same action as MKb 42 (H), which was first shot in anger at the Russian front (Cholm) in the summer 1942: Thirty-five rifles from the first prototype batch of 50 Haenel-designed guns were sent for the field test into the battlefield. They were welcomed by the users.


Walther-designed prototype, MKb 42 "W" or "Construction A 115" had an annular gas piston sliding on the barrel, while MKb 42 (H) had a less expensive and more reliably functioning combination of a gas cylinder and piston mounted on the barrel. Single-shot (self loading or "semi-automatic") shooting of MKb 42 (W) was somewhat more accurate, but full-automatic or burst fire shooting of MKb 42 (H) was more steady, since the balance between recoil and a closing slam of the action was perfect..!


For the MASCHINENPISTOLE 43 were picked details from both of these prototypes: Gas piston construction of MKb 42 (H) but firing mechanism with a separate hammer and "closed bolt" shooting from MKb 42 (W). The cartridge, now called as "PISTOLENPATRONE 43", was found to be accurate enough for shooting one by one. The burst fire was allowed to shoot in emergency only. The magazine of machine carbines was re-designed to become more reliable to feed and easier to load. In 1944 allowed ADOLF HITLER the mass-production of this entirely new kind of infantry firearms, and he re-christened it as a: "STURMGEWEHR 44"; an Assault Rifle. Production rate of StG 44 was too slow to alter the course of Second World War.


That 7.9 x 33 mm cartridge was designed by POLTE Plant at Magdeburg in 1938 but idea of intermediate-sized carbine cartridge was a brainstorm of one Captain PIDERIT of Rifle Selection Commission from the tail year 1918 of 1st World War in Germany - if not idea of a Bohemian firearms designer KAREL KRNKA (pronounced as: "krynka", believed usually to be a typing error) and a Swiss professor HEBLER; co-designers of tubular rifle bullets with a range ca. five miles, and some other "too much, too early" inventions, more than a century ago. They actually made prototypes of "Miniature Rifle" and shortened cartridges with caliber as small as 5 mm (.20") in 1892 (SIC !), but the contemporary military authorities were not interested...


The Imperial (and later Soviet) Russian scientist and firearms designer V.G. FYODOROV predicted also arrival of the shortened cartridges for "AVTOMATs" (= assault rifles). Fyodorov designed the first mass-produced one in 1916. The cartridge of existing Avtomat Model 1916 was Japanese 6.5 mm Arisaka with slightly reduced powder charge but a full-sized case. Fyodorov recommended on his books in late 1920s adoption of the bullet size 6.5 mm "if not even smaller" and a rimless or semi-rimmed case with a length shortened ca. 20 % ( to 40 mm). The Russian 5.45 x 40 mm cartridge was actually predicted 70 or more years ago !


The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN. M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.


Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).


Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo. German Third Reich was, however, just about adopting the 7.9 x 33 mm Polte cartridge, because of it's already standard size of bullet, rifle bore and rifling grooves, along with the case head and extractor groove dimensions similar to those of 7.9 x 57 mm Mauser case. GeCo had the production capacity of MANNLICHER-CARCANO cases, but all the other German producers of rifle caliber cartridges had the machinery adjusted for MAUSER case heads. Polte was biggest of them, having plants everywhere in The Reich, including the most remote Germany's provinces, like Poland.


Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.


.....................

Panzerknacker
03-02-2009, 06:06 PM
Continue from above.....


GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle. There were actually three models of Vollmer machine carbines made since 1934 until 1938, but they were all too fine (read: expensive) arms for military issue, even for the special troops, with their all-machined and hand-fitted parts. Carbines had action with annular gas piston around the barrel, behind the muzzle, and too many delicate parts. Heeres Waffenamt (Weaponry Office of German armed forces) turned down the last, and most complicated, "A 35/III" carbine in 30th August 1938.


Designer HEINRICH VOLLMER continued his efforts for design of submachine guns MP 38, MP 38/40 and MP 40 (often called incorrectly as "SCHMEISSER" submachine guns on the pulp novels). These guns were successful tools of warfare: Especially the MP 40 was inexpensive and easy to mass-produce. At least a million of them were made until the death of Germany in 1945.


Back to the question re German influence on AK-47: There are some resemblances between AK and StG 44, but they are just superficial similarities. M. T. KALASHNIKOV copied details of many American (not German) firearms, including the breech bolt of U.S. M1 Carbine, a safety/selector lever from REMINGTON Model 8 hunting rifle and principle of trigger mechanism from BROWNING AUTO-5 shotgun, but many applications of these ideas are modified or improved by Kalashnikov himself and many major innovations are his designs, without known predecessors.


I don't know, whether Hugo Schmeisser, who fell into the hands of Russians in 1945, was allowed to assist Kalashnikov in his design work. Schmeisser returned later to Suhl (then in the East-Germany) and he was allowed to continue his designer's work in the W.E.B. ERNST THAELMANN plant, which made especially air rifles under the original brand name "HAENEL". Many of these air guns were earlier designs of Hugo Schmeisser. They were well-known and popular in Finland too, decades ago, when I was a youngster.


Actions of German assault rifle (with a tilting breech bolt) and that of AK-47 (with a rotating bolt) are, especially, quite different. So are also cocking and safety arrangements.


http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA4.html (http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA4.html)

Tony Williams
03-03-2009, 02:41 AM
Found this excellent report:

Origin of the 7.92x33 and 7,62x39 cartrigdes:

[a few extracts]

The Russian M-43 cartridge was.... NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).

Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo.

Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.

GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle.

Sorry, but I won't believe that without proof, rather than just assertions.

The case length for the 7.92 "Winter" cartridge in Labbett's book and in the ECRA (European Cartridge Research Association) database, the most comprehensive listing of service and experimental cartridges available, is 33.5mm compared with 39mm for the M1943 and the case diameter is 11.8+mm compared with 11.3mm, so everything about this round is different from the M1943.

The suggestion that, in the middle of a war, a German firm should make the marginal change from 7.92mm (which everyone was geared up to make) to 7.62mm (which no-one was - that calibre wasn't used for any purpose in Germany) makes no sense. This is confirmed by the ECRA database, which does not list any German WW2 cartridge as having a 7.62mm calibre.

There are several German 7.62mm rounds with case lengths of around 38-40mm, but they were all made over a few years around 1960 for experimental purposes: the Geco "Mittelpatrone" 7.62x38, the DAG 7.62x40 and a different DAG/IKW 7.62x40 design.

So unless the author can come up with an actual example of the cartridge, or a factory drawing from that period, there is no evidence that there were any German pre-WW2 or WW2 cartridges with dimensions close to that of the M1943.

It baffles me that people should still be trying to prove this (why?) when we have the evidence from the Russians themselves that the M1943 was directly inspired by examination of captured 7.92x33 ammunition, modified in calibre and shape to suit Russian manufacturing equipment. Designing new cartridge cases is not exactly rocket science!


I don't know, whether Hugo Schmeisser, who fell into the hands of Russians in 1945, was allowed to assist Kalashnikov in his design work.

I quote Russian author Maxim Popenker:

"While it is possible that Hugo Schmeisser spent some time in Izhevsk, it absolutely had nothing to do with AK.

Mikahail Kalashnikov developed his AK-46 at Red Army testing range near Moscow (some several thousands miles from Izhevsk), and co-designed AK-47 (which was entirely different beast) in Kovrov (also quite a distance from Izhevsk)

In the course of AK-47 development Kalashnikov and Zaitsev ripped off quite a lot of other designs, including Browning, Holek and Bulkin (Kalashnikov's rival in 1946 and 47 trials), but they hardly borrowed a thing from Stg.44.

The only thing that Schmeisser possibly could do at the time in Izhevsk was to transfer his knowledge on rapid production of large and complicated stamped parts, but it was all in vain (even if he did so) as in 1950-51 Izhevsk plant failed to produce original AK with stamped receivers and had to revert to machined receivers due to tremendous amount of rejected guns."

Panzerknacker
03-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Sorry, but I won't believe that without proof, rather than just assertions.

The case length for the 7.92 "Winter" cartridge in Labbett's book and in the ECRA (European Cartridge Research Association) database, the most comprehensive listing of service and experimental cartridges available, is 33.5mm compared with 39mm for the M1943 and the case diameter is 11.8+mm compared with 11.3mm, so everything about this round is different from the M1943.



The article had a good portion of speculation, that is for sure, however I think is an interesting reading nevertheless. The finnish author ( now passed away) didnt like to much the soviets, so i think that influenced in his stile or writing.

Panzerknacker
03-13-2009, 06:26 PM
2 weird designs:

7.92mm Spreewerke VG-2 Volkssturmgewehr semiauto caliber 7.92 kurz

http://i44.tinypic.com/24dh5cm.jpg


7.75mm Vollmer M-35 Automatic Karabiner, pre-war assault rifle prototipe.

http://i41.tinypic.com/xmltw6.jpg

Deaf Smith
03-13-2009, 08:32 PM
If not mistaken the Vollmer M-35 Automatic Karabiner used a gas 'blow forward' where holds in the barrel blew the gas foreard delaying the action, which was connected to the shroud around the barrel, from going backward. Not unlike the HK P7 squeeze cocker. But I bet the weapon gets hot quick (the P7 sure does.)

Deaf