Leuchtpistole/ Kampfpistole/ Sturmpistole.

[Panzerknacker]

This family of single shot pistols evolved from a very simple flare cartrigde launcher to a devoted antipersonnel and antitank devices.


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6341/leuchheergw4.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Lechtpistole.

The Leuchtpistole ("glow pistol"), weighing 1.3 kg, by the company Walther, introduced into service in 1928. It featured a break-action breech and it became the standar flare/signal device of all german military branches.

Lutwaffe Oblt with his LP

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7764/obltsj7.jpg

The caliber was 27mm and it had a smooth bore.

When the original design was superseded by a construction utilising lighter metal, it not only reduced weight to 0.78 kg, the normal employment was as signal comunication, illumination and marking, but also provoked the engineers to think about other uses for this pistol like the launching of small explosive charges.

The first was the Sprenggranate Leuchtpistole ("explosive-round signal pistol") or Spgr.LP that was 12.5 cm long. The projectile was proyected by a small black podwer charge and it muzzle speed was merely 60 m/s.

Cartrigde 326 lp and his projectile

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6152/wurfgrjb7.jpg



Detail on lp 326 grenade.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5338/326zm9.jpg

Given the pistol non-rifle bore it used a fin stabilization and a impact fuse, however, the small warhead with it's 30g of explosive proved to be too not very efective even at even at close range.

[Panzerknacker]

Kampfpistole.

The original Leuchtpistole had a smooth bore that was not very useful for the conceived purposes.

An insert-barrel with a caliber of 23,4mm rifled with 5 grooves right twist was developed to be inserted into the otherwise unchanged Leuchtpistole which by this insertion became a Kampfpistole ("combat pistol"), sometimes also called Kampfpistole Z because of the white "Z" that was painted on the side of the chamber to discern it from the normal Leuchtpistole without the inserted rifled barrel used for firing the combat munitions.

Both the signal and the combat version used spirit level scales that showed the firing angle as an aiming device. The weapon was 24.5 cm long and the barrel had a length of 15.5 cm.

The grooved barrel allowed to shot a large variety of flare, explosive and marking ammunition. so-called Wurfkörpers (projectiles) were developed, which were a combination of the head of a handgrenade with a caliber-thick insertion shaft. Obviously thi type of projectile were muzzleloading.

The first model was the Wurfkörper 358 LP that joined the insertion shaft with the warhead of the regular Stielhandgranate ("stick hand grenade", the famous "potato-masher"). However the warhead proved too heavy which resulted in a too short range.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/139/2005010619391908pm4.jpg

The second model, the Wurfkörper 361 LP, joined the shaft with a Eierhandgranate ("egg hand grenade") and proved more practical. Still some refinement was necessary in regard to stability during flight. In this final refinement the thick wooden shaft discarded after launch and left a thin steel tube that stabilized the projectile satisfactorily.

Single handed shooting of the W 361 lp elegant but not very accurate.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4756/kampf3et8.jpg


http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2793/kampf4qh8.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2166/kampf5id8.jpg

Production ran from 1941 to 1942 and 261,788 WK 361 LP were built.
The munition now weighed 0.325 kg, had a length of 22.4 cm and an initial speed of 40m/s and a range of 85m. a later modifcation utilised a plastic shaft that shortened the projectile to 21.8 cm and increased range to almost 100m.

[Panzerknacker]

Another projectiles for the Kampfpistole:

Sprenggrenate mit zeitzunder.

This time fuze round teorically allowed the projectile bounce in the ground and exploding in the air. Note the pre-engraver external aluminium rotating band.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2228/zeitxz4.gif

. HE (Sprengpatrone für Kampfpistole)


This is a small, nose-fuzed high-explosive round, relying on blast for its effect. However, since the effect is comparatively small it is believed that this round is essentially offensive ammunition, preferably for use in street fighting.

The small prismatic sight on the pistol is graduated to 100 meters (approximately 110 yards) and although tests have shown that longer ranges may be obtained, such shooting is inaccurate.
A general description of the grenade is shown in fig 1 (see accompanying sketches). Other details are:

Weight of complete round Approx 5 ozWeight of projectileApprox 3 1/2 ozType of fillingPETN/Wax (pental erythritoltetranitrate)Weight of filling (2 increments)339 grainsType of propellantGraphited black powderWeight of propellant12 grains*MarkingsBase of cartridge case usually stencilled: "Spr. Z".


Left HE with time fuze, right HE with impact fuze.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/pics/german-grenade-pistol-ammunition.jpg

b. Smoke (Nebelpatrone für Kampfpistole)
Externally this is similar to the HE projectile; internally it contains a smoke generator. It is fitted with a nose fuze which is similar to that in the HE projectile, except that there is a charge of gun powder in place of the detonator below the flash cap. The projectile functions on impact. The gunpowder is ignited by the flash cap and blows off the smoke generator, at the same time igniting it. It has been ascertained that the smoke generator may be projected a considerable distance from the point of impact. The projectile may be recognized by the following stencilled marking on the base of the cartridge case: "NEBEL Z".

c. Indicator (Deutpatrone für Kampfpistole)


This grenade (see fig 2) emits a puff of reddish-brown smoke after it has been in flight for about two seconds. It is similar, externally, to the two grenades described above except for the head which is parabolic. There is no fuze, the smoke train being fired by the flash from the propellant.
Weight of complete round Approx 4 1/2 ozWeight of projectile Approx 3 ozMarking Base of cartridge case stencilled "Deut. Z".


d. Illuminating Star on Parachute (Fallschirm Leuchtpatrone für Kampfpistole)


This grenade has the general external appearance of the other types. It has a black bakelite head which has a white spot in the center. "F. Leucht. Z" is stencilled on the base of the cartridge case. The base of the projectile has a screwed-on plug which is perforated to hold a gunpowder pellet. Above this is a star to which a parachute is attached. The parachute is towards the forward end of the projectile. The action is as follows: On firing, the flash from the propellant ignites the gunpowder pellet which, after a brief delay, ignites the star. The bakelite head is blown off and the star ejected. The star is of the illuminating type. *This propelling charge appears to be extremely small but the weight stated is correct according to the best available source information.

[Panzerknacker]

Some corrections that have reach me by PM.


Hello,

I just read your Leuchtpistolen thread. As far as it is written very well and I enjoy your articles there are some major mistakes.

1. The Kampfpistole Z is an airforce developement and the gun was mostly used by paratroopers.
There is only one HE cartridge with two different impact fuzes. No time or delay fuze. There was an trial in early proofings but the project was dropped and never saw service.
The pistol is simply the normal Leuchtpistole with cut in rifling. There is no insert barrel - any other flare ammo or ammo used in the normal Leuchtpistole couldt be fired from the rifled Leuchtpistole Z
( Kampfpistole Z )too.
The cross section drawing of the HE cartridges showes a smoke cartridge at the right site. Not a HE with impact fuze - the composite is smoke composit ignited by a delay powder train from the propelling charge.

2. The Wurfkörper 326 LP couldt be used both in the Leuchtpistole and the Kampfpistole Z ( There is a later version of this too )

3. The Wurfkörper 358 LP and 361 LP need an smooth insert barrel. This insert barrel looks like an reinforced
steel cartridge case with an hole instead of an primer cap. This "case" (smooth barrel) was inserted into the guns barrel and the gun was closed - the Wurfkörper was inserted from the muzzle( after removing the safety pin) and fixed by a small wire ring spring.
Later this barrel was dropped and the improved Wurfkörper couldt fired from a plain flare gun or Kampfpistole Z.
The first shafts are from aluminum, then made from wood and later from bakelite. These shafts are fixed and they where not discarded.

4. These ammo couldt be used in the later intoduced
Leuchtpistole 42 too. This gun was made of pressed sheets and steel and easier to manufacture. There is a rifled version of the Leuchtpistole 42 too.

5. The ammo for the Kampfpistole Z couldt not be used in the normal smooth Leuchtpistolen.

6. The later introduced Panzerwurfkörper 42 ( AP grenade like a smal Panzerfaust warhead) need an rifled inser barrel. You need this barrel in the normal Leuchtpistole and it couldt be used in the Kampfpistole Z too ( its questionable if it ever hapened , but it couldt). This rifled barrel has a smaller caliber as the rifled barrel of the Kampfpistole Z- be´cause he was inserted into the smooth or rifled barrel) .Because there is an rotation force, the barrel must be fixed. That happens by removing the case extractor. insert the barrel and using a fixing part instead of the extractor.. The gun was closed and the Panzerwurfkörper was inserted from the muzzle..

7. There are different sorts of sights- if you wanted I send some pictures later.

I research this part of german armament very closely and examine a lot of guns and ammo and have collected a bunch of documents and pics.

As mentioned above you did a great job and so I hope you didnt take this as critism but as a help.
Please feel free to use this info as you like. I will send some pics later.

Best regards




Clearly this theme was beyond my knowledge.

My apologies to everybody for giving wrong information. :neutral:

[Panzerknacker]

Sturmpistole.

Given my failure with the kampfpistole I just dare to say that this was a collapsable shoulder stock equipped variant of the early one, it gives a better grip and control of the weapon firing the heavier charges, especially the antitank ones.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/48/00023801vj7.jpg


http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9363/00023802gw2.jpg


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/420/00023805bz5.jpg



http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3320/00023806dp5.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

And one more picture, the "assault pistol" with a projectile 358Lp inserted.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/3250/kampf9aw8.jpg

[tankgeezer]

I am surprised that the alloy this pistol is made from would take that kind of pounding. It is a novel use for an inexpensive device, were they actually effective in use?
With the shoulder stock, it almost looks like something from Man from U.N.C.L.E., or Men in Black... :)

[Panzerknacker]

According to the new information I ve received from Genkidescan the barrel was not alloy but steel. :roll:

[tankgeezer]

Quote:"1940. Walther break action, single shot signal pistol by Carl Walther Waffenfabrik.
Alloy barrel and frame stamped Waffenfabrik Walther Zella-Mehlis (Thur) WALTHER in a banner and 1940 with various Nazi proof marks.

The breech is opened by a spring loaded trigger guard latch. The grips are brown checkered bakelite attached with a single screw bolt and the butt has a lanyard ring."
Not certain this is the same exact model of pistol, but it is the one I had in mind,, I got this from the net.

[Panzerknacker]

It was the same model, the non rifled variant.

And this is nasty looking, sturmpistole with a pw antitank round inserted, a tank kill is recorded with this system in 1944.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6448/2005010619391378xy1.jpg

[tankgeezer]

That is a really nice package there,looks dangerous too. I could use such a thing during traffic jams....

[Panzerknacker]

And this the normal Kampfpistole with other hollow charge grenade, man the ammo for this weapon is neverending.

I think this is the HL 62.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7513/wurfiu7.jpg

[genkideskan]

Well the flare pistols are made from alluminum alloy and some from zinc.
The rifled Kampfpistole Z used ammo with high/low pressure system. The head of the cartridge case is very solid, with a small powder chamber closed by the primer. Here the powder burns with high pressure and the gas was regulated through nozzles or jets into the low pressure chamber beneath the projectile. ( see the cross section foto )

The Wurfkörper 326 used an nozzle plate and the other ammo was fired with smooth or rifled steel insert barrels.

[tankgeezer]

And this the normal Kampfpistole with other hollow charge grenade, man the ammo for this weapon is neverending.

I think this is the HL 62.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7513/wurfiu7.jpg
That is a secret weapon P.K. its true nomenclature was the ICC 62. fired Ice Cream Cones into the enemy positions to distract them before an assault,,,,,:) and since it was Italian Ice Cream,,, well who could resist.:shock:

[Panzerknacker]

Well the flare pistols are made from alluminum alloy and some from zinc.
The rifled Kampfpistole Z used ammo with high/low pressure system

Excuse me , but I dont fully understand, the barrel was aluminium then?

[genkideskan]

Yes, sorry I dont explaine it very clear. Leuchtpistole, Kampfpistole Z and Sturmpistole are made totally from alluminum or zinc alloy, only the samll inner parts are from steel. They are blackened by a chemical process and look like steel. If you take a pistol the first time you wonder how light it is.
So the Kampfpistole Z used an ammunition where the high pressure was cope by a solid cartridge head, to that the ammo works with low pressure and low velocity. That is the reason they used steel insert barrels with heavier Wurfkörper of higher velocity.

[Panzerknacker]

Well, the steel is always needed , that make a little more confortable if some day I have o shoot this pistol. ;)

I am posting now the images you send me.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7294/pwk4jch4.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

The panzerwurfkorper, antitank HEAT pojectile for sturmpistole.

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/3584/pwkjau7.jpg




http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6170/wurfkrper361newsystemwiey3.jpg



WK 361 lp.


http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9656/wurfkrper361oldsystemwidk9.jpg

[Splinter54]

It's getting ridicolous! Nobody shoots with a Pistol against a Tank!

[tankgeezer]

It's getting ridicolous! Nobody shoots with a Pistol against a Tank!

You do if you are close enough, or scared enough,, that A.T. grenade could have done serious damage to most any of the tanks in the field at the time. And considering one did not have to die in order to use it,(A.T. pole grenade,run up to a tank, and jab it with the weapon,) or the various magnetic/sticky bomb weapons, (run up to tank, hope it sticks to it, initiate the fuze and run like the devil) it is a pretty good idea, and the ancestor of the modern grenade launcher. which uses the same Hi-Lo pressure system, and does the same job. An extra ration of sausage and kraut for the inventor.:D

[Panzerknacker]

It's getting ridicolous! Nobody shoots with a Pistol against a Tank!


Are you sure ? :rolleyes:, at list the Sturmpistole was a stand off weapon not like the HHL in wich you need to put it in the tank.

In any case the concept of a grenade launching, antiarmor small arms is not abandoned
look this Hecler & Koch H&K 69.

http://atplatoon.w.interia.pl/HK69A1.jpg

And this is the 40x46SR cartrigde loaded with the M433 hohlladung projectile, it penetrate 50mm rolled steel armor.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m433.JPG

[Splinter54]

I think it works against soft skinned or light armored vehicles, but - unless you are a hero with a suicidial wish - shooting a Main Battle Tank with a 40mm Hollow Charge from a Grenade launcher ... good luck! :P
But i will ask if we got something like that here and if i can get my hand on it, then i will test it on a Hartziel in natura :D

[genkideskan]

The HL 62 you mentioned, was developed by Professor Dr. Gerloff of the Waffenakademie Brünn ( Czechoslovakia) for the SS.
He developed the both very successful AT rifle grenades ( SS Gewehrpanzergranate 46 and 61) for the SS and the idea was to use major parts like the warhead for a flare pistol version.
Some shouldt see service in the last days of the war. Even today little is known about SS ammo - they keep it secret.

The armour piercing ability was Panzerwurfkörper 42 = 80mm and HL 62 = 90mm
It wasnt possible to blow up a tank except you hit the tank ammunition. But a shot into the lesser armoured parts of the tank between the tracks or at the rear wouldt stop the tank, destroy the engine and may be lighted up the fuel.

[tankgeezer]

I think it works against soft skinned or light armored vehicles, but - unless you are a hero with a suicidial wish - shooting a Main Battle Tank with a 40mm Hollow Charge from a Grenade launcher ... good luck! :P
But i will ask if we got something like that here and if i can get my hand on it, then i will test it on a Hartziel in natura :D
Armor is armor, and in WW2 it wasnt the Chabham or other layered stuff used today, so that shaped charge, even though its not huge, would still perf most tanks. perhaps not the glassis of the largest tanks, but any hit on the sides, or back will make a hole, with the usual results. fire, secondary explosions, casualties of all kinds. The shaped charge is a freak of nature, and doesnt follow all the rules of the physical world.
In more recent times, The Israelis used a similar device, fired from the Uzi, and perhaps other weapons as well, against the tanks of the Arab nations, with telling effect. the small charges still had no trouble perfing the armor, and burning the tanks. With this type weapon, size doesnt really matter much.

[Panzerknacker]

The armour piercing ability was Panzerwurfkörper 42 = 80mm and HL 62 = 90mm
It wasnt possible to blow up a tank except you hit the tank ammunition. But a shot into the lesser armoured parts of the tank between the tracks or at the rear wouldt stop the tank, destroy the engine and may be lighted up the fuel.


Knocking out the tank, no more no less than the desired effect. :cool:

[Splinter54]

Someone stated, that this gun looks quite like a AG36 - i agree somehow it looks similar ^^
Seems like a Leucht-/Sturmpistole attached to the barrel of a StG44 (the gun in the upper right hand corner looks somehow like an RPK-74, doesn't it?)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/933/ohyeahjx0.jpg

Another picture - what are those guns called??? The gun in the middle left look like an HK MP 5 und the one beside it like an AKM 74
Click (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31890&d=1186239046)

[Panzerknacker]

I could be terriblly wrong but I think that composite images of leutchpistole and MP 44 are a funny fake.

I never heard or read an account of the use of that system by the german military in der Zweite Weltkrieg. The the normal rifle grenade launcher apparatus was the schiessbecher, firing cup.

[Panzerknacker]

Anothe nice piece of information :

Wurfkörper is the WK LP (Wurfkörper Leuchtpistole) P - Pz.

It was introduced for close combat to clean the tank and the area arround from enemy tankhunters.
It was loaded like a normal flare cartridge and fired ONLY from inside the tank through a pistol or flare port . The thick walled HE shell flow from the barrel wind of the wire and the pull igniter in the bottom of the shell ignite a 1 second delay element. The heavy explosive load and the thick walled shell gave a blast and fragments that sweep away all attackers. It is little known and was only given to tank crews who know to use them. The cartridge was marked in big letters - ONLY USE FROM ARMOURED VEHICLES.

[Landpimp]

new poster here, but I have a Kampfpistole Z and its ALL steel no alum or zink whatsoever(beside the grips) its a very heavy gun, would guess 3+ Lbs maybe more

this is mine, found in the bottom of a box of evidence guns in Elma WA

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/691553/9227619/287483837.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/691553/9227619/287483833.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/691553/9227619/287483831.jpg
[IMG]http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/691553/9227619/287483834.jpg[/IMG



Yes, sorry I dont explaine it very clear. Leuchtpistole, Kampfpistole Z and Sturmpistole are made totally from alluminum or zinc alloy, only the samll inner parts are from steel. They are blackened by a chemical process and look like steel. If you take a pistol the first time you wonder how light it is.
So the Kampfpistole Z used an ammunition where the high pressure was cope by a solid cartridge head, to that the ammo works with low pressure and low velocity. That is the reason they used steel insert barrels with heavier Wurfkörper of higher velocity.

[Landpimp]

You can see that anti-tank pistol in action, sort of. It's starts 5 minutes 34 seconds into this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvY7ugiU48A&feature=related

[Panzerknacker]

Very good find, Thanks :)

[imi]

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/27312-2/lunch
Image from the main site