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Panzerknacker
08-20-2007, 02:18 PM
I think this is too much:

Another more sample of the devastating political corecctnes wich is crippling modern societies.

No lessons on the Holocaust


By Telegraph Reporter

Last Updated: 2:25am BST 03/04/2007



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/stylesheets/portal/images/yourview/form.gif Have your say (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/02/nschools02.xml#form) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/stylesheets/portal/images/yourview/comments.gif Read comments (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/02/nschools02.xml#comments)

Schools are dropping controversial subjects from history lessons - such as the Holocaust and the Crusades - because teachers do not want to cause offence, Government research has discovered.
The way the slave trade is taught can lead white children as well as black pupils to feel alienated, according to a study by the Historical Association.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/02/nschools02.jpgIgnored by schools: freed prisoners at the Auschwitz concentration camp

A lack of knowledge among teachers, particularly in primary schools, is also leading to "shallow" lessons on emotive and difficult subjects.

Some teachers dropped the Holocaust completely from lessons because of fears that Muslim pupils might express anti-semitic reactions. One school avoided teaching the Crusades because its "balanced" handling of the topic would directly contradict what was taught in local mosques.

The report, funded by the Department for Education and Skills, said: "Teachers and schools avoid emotive and controversial history for a variety of reasons, some of which are well-intentioned.
"Staff may wish to avoid causing offence or appearing insensitive to individuals or groups in their classes.
"In particular settings, teachers of history are unwilling to challenge highly contentious or charged versions of history in which pupils are steeped at home, in their community or in a place of worship."
The researchers gave the example of one history department in a secondary school in a northern city which decided not to teach the Holocaust as a topic for GCSE coursework.
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The report said teachers feared confronting "anti-semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial among some Muslim pupils". Christian parents at another school complained about the way the Arab-Israeli conflict was taught



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/02/nschools02.xml

tankgeezer
08-20-2007, 04:09 PM
The foolish notions of some in positions of authority, particularily in education, never ceases to amaze me.
the purpose of education is to teach the whole of a subject, concept, or idea. The tough to look in the eye parts as well as the easy to swallow parts.
To be in fear of the responses of pupils is to undermine the entire process and purpose of education.

redcoat
08-20-2007, 05:07 PM
Your title is misleading, the UK hasn't forbidden holocaust teaching, a single school has taken a decision to not teach it.
The fact that this school has taken this decision is indeed shocking, but so far it an isolated case, and considering the outrage this has cased it will probably stay an isolated case.

Panzerknacker
08-20-2007, 07:39 PM
I search an alternative source and it sais this:




Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Governmentbacked study has revealed. It found some teachers are reluctant to cover the atrocity for fear of upsetting students whose beliefs include Holocaust denial.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=445979&in_page_id=1770

But you are right the title is wrong, is not forbade, is simply not teached :roll:, quite funny times we are living.

pdf27
08-21-2007, 02:58 AM
The Daily Mail is NOT a newspaper I would rely on without independent confirmation. Typical headlines would be along the lines of "Did Swan-Eating Immigrants Kill Diana".

Man of Stoat
08-21-2007, 03:24 AM
err, it's the telegraph, not the mail.

Panzerknacker
08-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Both actually, and here you got another source for the same info:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1600686.ece

Tipical thing , in order of no to offend a minority you anoy the majority.

RifleMan20
08-21-2007, 10:52 PM
learning is life, learning about the holucaust need to be taught to jews to make them understand that not Plain Old Christens started it but Nazi Christensdid it, and the cursades is about chrisrtens wanting the holy land where jesus lived where they had to conquer many cities to get there way to go showing how good our riligion
Sorry about spelling am just really tired and i cant put things down and to tell you the truth i have hardly any idea what i put down

Panzerknacker
08-21-2007, 11:45 PM
Arrgghh, your writing is the holocaust of the orthography :D

No more please, the way you wrote is as much important as the thing you try to say.

pdf27
08-22-2007, 02:07 AM
Spell check plugins are your friend!
http://www.iespell.com/

Chevan
08-22-2007, 02:39 AM
I think this is too much:

Another more sample of the devastating political corecctnes wich is crippling modern societies.

No lessons on the Holocaust


This is the cheap propogandic article in the cheapest newspaper.
The reason why some of teachers refuses to teach the Holocaust is FAR not the Muslim's blackmail.
The reason is the fact thet this is VERY HARd to teach the Holocaust the OBJECTIVELY.
The any teacher who try to study this theme immediatelly meets the problems.
For intance as we know the Zionists ( who wanted the "own jewish" lands in Palestina) colloborated with NAzy - they had the agreements that if the GErmany has won the Britain in the Africa - the Hitler presented them the Palestina.
So its funn but when the simple jews were repressed by the Nazy who want to dispatch out all the jews form the Germany - at the same time the Zionists who wanted to send the jews to the Palestina WERE VERY IDEOLOGICALY CLOSE For the Nazy.
They both were wanted the same- Zionist wanted the ethicaly clear Jewish Land in Middle East- The Nazy wanted the Europe without the jews;)
But as we know the Britain was AGAINST to send the jews in the Middle East;)
So indeed the Gerat Britain- no the NAzy was the main ENEMY of the Zionists.
And as we all know the Zionist wished the Britain to be the defeated in the war.
If you are the BRitish teacher - how would you say it for the kids?
The ANY nearest JEWIS organisation bring the claim to the court as for DANGER ANTI-SEMITE .
So indeed the any teacher who teach this Holocaust meets the dilemma- or to tech the "official version of Holocaust" (i/e the version thet the JEWS themself LET to teach) or to be the HONEST and receive the a lot of problems for his head.( probably even lost the work).
What will you choice?
The great example of the teacher who want to teach the true is the story of Urgen Graft.
Did you hear about him?
In the school where Muslim community exists the sitiation is MORE complicated.
From one side the Muslims who feels as the victim of Zionists agressions - could not hear about any jewish claims toward the other peoples ( as the official version of Holocaust do).
The teachers in the simular scholl is UNDER the double blackmail - from one side the "offended agressive Muslims" - from other side - the Zionists who wish to teach the ONLY official foolish version of Holocaust.
The Teachers prefered to avoid this problem simply to ignore the teaching the Holocaust..

Cheers.

Rising Sun*
08-22-2007, 03:46 AM
This is the cheap propogandic article in the cheapest newspaper.
The reason why some of teachers refuses to teach the Holocaust is FAR not the Muslim's blackmail.
The reason is the fact thet this is VERY HARd to teach the Holocaust the OBJECTIVELY.
The any teacher who try to study this theme immediatelly meets the problems.
For intance as we know the Zionists ( who wanted the "own jewish" lands in Palestina) colloborated with NAzy - they had the agreements that if the GErmany has won the Britain in the Africa - the Hitler presented them the Palestina.
So its funn but when the simple jews were repressed by the Nazy who want to dispatch out all the jews form the Germany - at the same time the Zionists who wanted to send the jews to the Palestina WERE VERY IDEOLOGICALY CLOSE For the Nazy.
They both were wanted the same- Zionist wanted the ethicaly clear Jewish Land in Middle East- The Nazy wanted the Europe without the jews;)
But as we know the Britain was AGAINST to send the jews in the Middle East;)
So indeed the Gerat Britain- no the NAzy was the main ENEMY of the Zionists.
And as we all know the Zionist wished the Britain to be the defeated in the war.
If you are the BRitish teacher - how would you say it for the kids?


No disrespect to British history teachers but, if most of them are about as good as most of the rest in the English speaking world, you're assuming they know rather more than they do about this topic.

Most teach what's in a syllabus. If it's designed outside the school, they have no say in what they cover. If it ain't there, most don't teach it, 'cos most don't know it.

Chevan
08-22-2007, 04:47 AM
No disrespect to British history teachers but, if most of them are about as good as most of the rest in the English speaking world, you're assuming they know rather more than they do about this topic.

Sure mate they know rather more than they could to say in class;)
As i say the Holocaust is the infair theme- they fear to be between to blackmails- the Zionists and Muslims;)( I don'k know awhat is beter but i know for the sure for anti-muslims tells people at least don't send to the prison in Europe;)


Most teach what's in a syllabus. If it's designed outside the school, they have no say in what they cover. If it ain't there, most don't teach it, 'cos most don't know it.
That's right but as you could notice there is TOO mach depends from the presonal teachers approach - not only the teach the events according the syllabus but aslo and get the historical valuation of events.

Rising Sun*
08-22-2007, 06:15 AM
Sure mate they know rather more than they could to say in class;)

That just goes to show that the Mother Country is still smarter than her prison colony descendants down here in the Antipodes.

Here, we get new teachers with a degree majoring in, say, English and economics which results in the idiots who run the education departments deciding that they're exactly the sort of people to teach history and geography.

The geography graduates aren't teaching anything because nobody in their right mind gets a degree in geography, while those who do aren't in their right mind and are perfectly qualified for and immediately appointed to important positions in the education bureacracy, where they start out by deciding who teaches what where.

This leaves a missing link in the chain so that geography is taught by history graduates while physics is taught by chemistry graduates and mathematics is taught by anyone who can actually count, which rules out economics graduates.

It's a very complex system which only educational bureaucrats can understand.

We're thinking of exporting it to the rest of the world, but as nobody is taught geography in schools we don't know where the rest of the world is.

:D

Man of Stoat
08-22-2007, 10:26 AM
Looks like Chevan is seeing Zionists under the bed again...

Panzerknacker
08-22-2007, 11:29 AM
This is the cheap propogandic article in the cheapest newspaper.
The reason why some of teachers refuses to teach the Holocaust is FAR not the Muslim's blackmail.
The reason is the fact thet this is VERY HARd to teach the Holocaust the OBJECTIVELY

Is not propaganda of any kind, is fact that schools in UK are dropping to teach the Holocaust.

Is not hard at all to teach the holocaust objetively, the germans let behind a very good and detailed account of the extermination of jews.

If you insist in your favorite words "propaganda" and "zionism", and/or try to derail this to discussion of how many were killed I will be forced to edit you, so please dont.

1000ydstare
08-27-2007, 02:02 PM
Panzerknacker, the way British Schools are taught differs greatly.

Although ALL must reach certain standards and objectives they have (in particular History) a fair bit of autonomy in what they teach.

Depending on the Local Education Authority (LEA) they can teach differing subjects. An LEA may set a choice of 5 - 7 subjects, of which 3 are taught (for example). The initial chioce of subjects depends on the LEA, and the school can pick which it wants.

I personnaly was not taught the Holocaust, I did WW1, Medicine and Germany up to 1933.

Schools in the next door authoritys area may teach something completely differently. Private schools are not governed by the LEAs so may teach what they want, as long as they achieve the various objectives.

That one or even more schools are ditching the holocaust as a subject does not mean the whole country is.

Although I personally believe you must learn about the past, to prevent such things happening again.

Panzerknacker
08-27-2007, 03:45 PM
Yea, I undestand that, is not a monolitic program.

But the problem from my view ( and from others too) is that the schools that already taught the extermination of the jews, decline to do that because a obscure tendency to no offend a minority in disregard of the benefits of teaching this sad event to the young people.

I dont need to tell you that the kids today are bombed continuosly by a massive holocaust denial crap in one of the favorites comunication artifacts of the young people, that is the computer/Internet.

This schools thinking that they are discriminative against a minority ( in this case the muslims) will make another minority vulnerable (that is the jews) and also will make the pupils vulnerable to the lies that are flying around.

An I have other arguments that might sound cheap and easy ( sorry about that but Oxford was too expensive for me)

Part of the minority wich the british schools are attempting to pleased now gave a vicious demonstration of his faith blowing trains and busses killing 50 people in London.

http://www.cremationofcare.com/images/symbols/fasci/mirror_facism.jpg


Part of the minority wich the schools are attempting to pleased now gave a sorry and patetic demostration of fanatism in the same city with posters like this.

http://www.standwithus.com/gallery/cartoonprotest/LondonProtest04.jpg


I dont know but this sound like a award for this people, or at list a head down of the british society facing the muslim intimidation.

That is my interpretation.

George Eller
08-27-2007, 09:09 PM
PART 1 OF 3

Some of this is a little off topic, but it ties in somewhat with Panzerknacker's post. I will have to break it up into 3 parts.

-

From Snopes.com

Muslim Demonstration
Claim: Photographs show placard-bearing Muslim protesters in London.
Status: True.
Examples: [Collected via e-mail, 2006]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp

Origins: The series of photographs displayed above were taken during a 3 February 2006 protest staged in London by Muslims angry over the publication in Scandinavian periodicals of cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad.

---

From an email I received in early April 2007:

Global Intelligence Briefing For CEO's

by Herbert Meyer

Currently, there are four major transformations that are shaping political, economic and world events.

These transformations have profound implications for American business owners, our culture and our way of life.

1. The War in Iraq

There are three major monotheistic religions in the world:
Christianity, Judaism and Islam. In the 16th century, Judaism and Christianity
reconciled with the modern world. The rabbis, priests and scholars found a way to
settle up and pave the way forward. Religion remained at the center of
life, church and state became separate. Rule of law, idea of economic
liberty, individual rights, human rights all these are defining points
of modern Western civilization. These concepts started with the Greeks but
didn't take off until the 15th and 16th century when Judaism and
Christianity found a way to reconcile with the modern world. When that
happened, it unleashed the scientific revolution and the greatest
outpouring of art, literature and music the world has ever known.

Islam, which developed in the 7th century, counts millions of Muslims
around the world who are normal people. However, there is a radical
streak within Islam. When the radicals are in charge, Islam attacks Western
civilization. Islam first attacked Western civilization in the 7th century, and later
in the 16th and 17th centuries. By 1683, the Muslims (Turks
from the Ottoman Empire) were literally at the gates of Vienna. It was in
Vienna that the climatic battle between Islam and Western civilization took
place.

The West won and went forward. Islam lost and went backward.
Interestingly, the date of that battle was September 11. Since then, Islam has not
found a way to reconcile with the modern world.

Today, terrorism is the third attack on Western civilization by radical
Islam. To deal with terrorism, the U.S. is doing two things.

First, units of our armed forces are in 30 countries around the world hunting down
terrorist groups and dealing with them. This gets very little publicity.

Second we are taking military action in Afghanistan and Iraq. These are
covered relentlessly by the media. People can argue about whether the
war in Iraq is right or wrong. However, the underlying strategy behind the
war is to use our military to remove the radicals from power and give the
moderates a chance. Our hope is that, over time, the moderates will
find a way to bring Islam forward into the 21st century. That's what our
involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is all about.

The lesson of 9/11 is that we live in a world where a small number of
people can kill a large number of people very quickly. They can use
airplanes, bombs, anthrax, chemical weapons or dirty bombs. Even with a
first-rate intelligence service (which the U.S. does not have), you
can't stop every attack. That means our tolerance "for political
horseplay" has dropped to zero. No longer will we play games with terrorists or
weapons of mass destruction.

Most of the instability and horseplay is coming from the Middle East.
That's why we have thought that if we could knock out the radicals
and give the moderates a chance to hold power, they might find a way to
reconcile Islam with the modern world. So when looking at Afghanistan or Iraq,
it's important to look for any signs that they are modernizing. For example,
women being brought into the workforce and colleges in Afghanistan is
good. The Iraqis stumbling toward a constitution is good. People can argue
about what the U.S. is doing and how we're doing it, but anything that
suggests Islam is finding its way forward is good.

2. The Emergence of China

In the last 20 years, China has moved 250 million people from the farms
and villages into the cities. Their plan is to move another 300 million
in the next 20 years. When you put that many people into the cities, you
have to find work for them. That's why China is addicted to manufacturing;
they have to put all the relocated people to work. When we decide to
manufacture something in the U.S., it's based on market needs and the opportunity
to make a profit. In China, they make the decision because they want the
jobs, which is a very different calculation.

While China is addicted to manufacturing, Americans are addicted to low
prices. As a result, a unique kind of economic codependency has
developed between the two countries. If we ever stop buying from China, they will
explode politically. If China stops selling to us, our economy will
take a huge hit because prices will jump. We are subsidizing their economic
development, they are subsidizing our economic growth.

Because of their huge growth in manufacturing, China is hungry for raw
materials, which drives prices up worldwide. China is also thirsty for
oil, which is one reason oil is now at $60 a barrel. By 2020, China will
produce more cars than the U.S. China is also buying its way into the oil
infrastructure around the world. They are doing it in the open market
and paying fair market prices, but millions of barrels of oil that would
have gone to the U.S. are now going to China. China's quest to assure it
has the oil it needs to fuel its economy is a major factor in world politics
and economics. We have our Navy fleets protecting the sea lines,
specifically the ability to get the tankers through. It won't be long before the
Chinese have an aircraft carrier sitting in the Persian Gulf as well. The
question is, will their aircraft carrier be pointing in the same direction as
ours or against us?

3. Shifting Demographics of Western Civilization

Most countries in the Western world have stopped breeding. For a
civilization obsessed with sex, this is remarkable. Maintaining a
steady population requires a birth rate of 2.1. In Western Europe, the birth
rate currently stands at 1.5, or 30 percent below replacement. In 30 years
there will be 70 to 80 million fewer Europeans than there are today. The
current birth rate in Germany is 1.3. Italy and Spain are even lower at 1.2. At
that rate, the working age population declines by 30 percent in 20
years, which has a huge impact on the economy.

When you don't have young workers to replace the older ones, you have
to import them. The European countries are currently importing Muslims.
Today, the Muslims comprise 10 percent of France and Germany, and the
percentage is rising rapidly because they have higher birthrates.
However, the Muslim populations are not being integrated into the cultures of
their host countries, which is a political catastrophe. One reason Germany
and France don't support the Iraq war is they fear their Muslim
populations will explode on them. By 2020, more than half of all births in the
Netherlands will be non-European.

The huge design flaw in the post-modern secular state is that you need
a traditional religious society birth rate to sustain it. The Europeans
simply don't wish to have children, so they are dying.

In Japan, the birthrate is 1.3. As a result, Japan will lose up to 60
million people over the next 30 years. Because Japan has a very
different society than Europe, they refuse to import workers. Instead, they are
just shutting down. Japan has already closed 2000 schools, and is closing
them down at the rate of 300 per year. Japan is also aging very rapidly. By
2020, one out of every five Japanese will be at least 70 years old.
Nobody has any idea about how to run an economy with those demographics.

Europe and Japan, which comprise two of the world's major economic
engines, aren't merely in recession, they're shutting down. This
will have a huge impact on the world economy, and it is already beginning to
happen.

Why are the birthrates so low? There is a direct correlation between
abandonment of traditional religious society and a drop in birth rate,
and Christianity in Europe is becoming irrelevant. The second reason is
economic. When the birth rate drops below replacement, the population
ages.

With fewer working people to support more retired people, it puts a
crushing tax burden on the smaller group of working age people. As a result,
young people delay marriage and having a family. Once this trend starts, the
downward spiral only gets worse. These countries have abandoned all the
traditions they formerly held in regards to having families and raising
children.

The U.S. birth rate is 2.0, just below replacement. We have an increase
in population because of immigration. When broken down by ethnicity,
the Anglo birth rate is 1.6 (same as France) while the Hispanic birth rate
is 2.7. In the U.S., the baby boomers are starting to retire in massive
numbers. This will push the "elder dependency" ratio from 19 to 38
over the next 10 to 15 years. This is not as bad as Europe, but still represents
the same kind of trend.

-

(CONTINUED BELOW)

George Eller
08-27-2007, 09:12 PM
Part 2 of 3

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)

Western civilization seems to have forgotten what every primitive
society understands, you need kids to have a healthy society. Children
are huge consumers. Then they grow up to become taxpayers. That's how a
society works, but the post-modern secular state seems to have
forgotten that. If U.S. birth rates of the past 20 to 30 years had been the same
as post-World War II, there would be no Social Security or Medicare
problems.

The world's most effective birth control device is money. As society
creates a middle class and women move into the workforce, birth rates
drop.
Having large families is incompatible with middle class living. The
quickest way to drop the birth rate is through rapid economic
development. After World War II, the U.S. instituted a $600 tax credit per child.
The idea was to enable mom and dad to have four children without being
troubled by taxes. This led to a baby boom of 22 million kids, which was a huge
consumer market that turned into a huge tax base. However, to match
that incentive in today's dollars would cost $12,000 per child.

China and India do not have declining populations. However, in both
countries, there is a preference for boys over girls, and we now have
the technology to know which is which before they are born. In China and
India, many families are aborting the girls. As a result, in each of these
countries there are 70 million boys growing up who will never find
wives. When left alone, nature produces 103 boys for every 100 girls. In some
provinces, however, the ratio is 128 boys to every 100 girls.

The birth rate in Russia is so low that by 2050 their population will
be smaller than that of Yemen. Russia has one-sixth of the earth's land
surface and much of its oil. You can't control that much area with
such a small population. Immediately to the south, you have China with 70
million unmarried men – a real potential nightmare scenario for Russia.

4. Restructuring of American Business

The fourth major transformation involves a fundamental restructuring of
American business. Today's business environment is very complex and
competitive. To succeed, you have to be the best, which means having
the highest quality and lowest cost. Whatever your price point, you must
have the best quality and lowest price. To be the best, you have to
concentrate on one thing. You can't be all things to all people and be the best.

A generation ago, IBM used to make every part of their computer. Now
Intel makes the chips, Microsoft makes the software, and someone else
makes the modems, hard drives, monitors, etc. IBM even outsources their call
center. Because IBM has all these companies supplying goods and
services cheaper and better than they could do it themselves, they can make a
better computer at a lower cost. This is called a "fracturing" of
business. When one company can make a better product by relying on others to perform
functions the business used to do itself, it creates a complex pyramid
of companies that serve and support each other.

This fracturing of American business is now in its second generation.
The companies who supply IBM are now doing the same thing, outsourcing
many of their core services and production process. As a result, they can
make cheaper, better products. Over time, this pyramid continues to get
bigger and bigger. Just when you think it can't fracture again, it does.
Even very small businesses can have a large pyramid of corporate entities
that perform many of its important functions. One aspect of this trend is
that companies end up with fewer employees and more independent contractors.

This trend has also created two new words in business, integrator and
complementor. At the top of the pyramid, IBM is the integrator. As you
go down the pyramid, Microsoft, Intel and the other companies that support
IBM are the complementors. However, each of the complementors is itself an
integrator for the complementors underneath it. This has several
implications, the first of which is that we are now getting false
readings on the economy. People who used to be employees are now independent
contractors launching their own businesses. There are many people
working whose work is not listed as a job. As a result, the economy is perking
along better than the numbers are telling us.

Outsourcing also confused the numbers. Suppose a company like General
Motors decides to outsource all its employee cafeteria functions to
Marriott (which it did). It lays off hundreds of cafeteria workers, who then get
hired right back by Marriott. The only thing that has changed is that
these people work for Marriott rather than GM. Yet, the headlines will scream
that America has lost more manufacturing jobs. All that really happened
is that these workers are now reclassified as service workers. So the old
way of counting jobs contributes to false economic readings. As yet, we
haven't figured out how to make the numbers catch up with the changing
realities of the business world.

Another implication of this massive restructuring is that because
companies are getting rid of units and people that used to work for
them, the entity is smaller. As the companies+ get smaller and more
efficient, revenues are going down but profits are going up. As a result, the old
notion that "revenues are up and we're doing great" isn't
always the case anymore. Companies are getting smaller but are becoming more efficient
and profitable in the process.

Implications Of The Four Transformations

1. The War in Iraq

In some ways, the war is going very well. Afghanistan and Iraq have the
beginnings of a modern government, which is a huge step forward. The
Saudis are starting to talk about some good things, while Egypt and Lebanon
are beginning to move in a good direction.

A series of revolutions have taken place in countries like Ukraine and
Georgia. There will be more of these revolutions for an interesting
reason. In every revolution, there comes a point where the dictator turns to
the general and says, "Fire into the crowd." If the general fires into
the crowd, it stops the revolution. If the general says "No," the
revolution is over. Increasingly, the generals are saying "No" because their kids
are in the crowd.

Thanks to TV and the Internet, the average 18-year old outside the U.S.
is very savvy about what is going on in the world, especially in terms
of popular culture. There is a huge global consciousness, and young people
around the world want to be a part of it. It is increasingly apparent
to them that the miserable government where they live is the only thing
standing in their way. More and more, it is the well-educated kids, the
children of the generals and the elite, who are leading the
revolutions.

At the same time, not all is well with the war. The level of violence
in Iraq is much worse and doesn't appear to be improving. It's
possible that we're asking too much of Islam all at one time. We're trying
to jolt them from the 7th century to the 21st century all at once, which may be
further than they can go. They might make it and they might not. Nobody
knows for sure. The point is, we don't know how the war will turn
out. Anyone who says they know is just guessing.

The real place to watch is Iran. If they actually obtain nuclear
weapons it will be a terrible situation. There are two ways to deal
with it. The first is a military strike, which will be very difficult. The
Iranians have dispersed their nuclear development facilities and put
them underground. The U.S. has nuclear weapons that can go under the earth
and take out those facilities, but we don't want to do that. The other
way is to separate the radical mullahs from the government, which is the most
likely course of action.

Seventy percent of the Iranian population is under 30. They are Muslim
but not Arab. They are mostly pro-Western. Many experts think the U.S.
should have dealt with Iran before going to war with Iraq. The problem
isn't so much the weapons, it's the people who control them. If Iran has
a moderate government, the weapons become less of a concern.

We don't know if we will win the war in Iraq. We could lose or win.
What we're looking for is any indicator that Islam is moving into the
21st century and stabilizing.

(CONTINUED BELOW)

George Eller
08-27-2007, 09:14 PM
Part 3 of 3

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)

2. China

It may be that pushing 500 million people from farms and villages into
cities is too much too soon. Although it gets almost no publicity,
China is experiencing hundreds of demonstrations around the country, which is
unprecedented. These are not students in Tiananmen Square. These are
average citizens who are angry with the government for building
chemical plants and polluting the water they drink and the air they breathe.

The Chinese are a smart and industrious people. They may be able to
pull it off and become a very successful economic and military
superpower. If so, we will have to learn to live with it. If they want to share the
responsibility of keeping the world's oil lanes open, that's a good
thing. They currently have eight new nuclear electric power generators under
way and 45 on the books to build. Soon, they will leave the U.S. way behind
in their ability to generate nuclear power.

What can go wrong with China? For one, you can't move 550 million
people into the cities without major problems. Two, China really wants
Taiwan, not so much for economic reasons, they just want it. The
Chinese know that their system of communism can't survive much longer in the
21st century. The last thing they want to do before they morph into some
sort of more capitalistic government is to take over Taiwan.

We may wake up one morning and find they have launched an attack on
Taiwan. If so, it will be a mess, both economically and militarily. The
U.S. has committed to the military defense of Taiwan. If China attacks
Taiwan, will we really go to war against them? If the Chinese generals
believe the answer is no, they may attack. If we don't defend Taiwan,
every treaty the U.S. has will be worthless. Hopefully,China won't do
anything stupid.

3. Demographics

Europe and Japan are dying because their populations are aging and
shrinking. These trends can be reversed if the young people start
breeding. However, the birth rates in these areas are so low it will take two
generations to turn things around. No economic model exists that
permits 50 years to turn things around. Some countries are beginning to offer
incentives for people to have bigger families. For example, Italy is
offering tax breaks for having children. However, it's a lifestyle
issue versus a tiny amount of money. Europeans aren't willing to give up
their comfortable lifestyles in order to have more children.

In general, everyone in Europe just wants it to last a while longer.
Europeans have a real talent for living. They don't want to work very
hard. The average European worker gets 400 more hours of vacation time per
year than Americans. They don't want to work and they don't want to make
any of the changes needed to revive their economies.

The summer after 9/11, France lost 15,000 people in a heat wave. In
August, the country basically shuts down when everyone goes on
vacation. That year, a severe heat wave struck and 15,000 elderly people living
in nursing homes and hospitals died. Their children didn't even leave
the beaches to come back and take care of the bodies. Institutions had to
scramble to find enough refrigeration units to hold the bodies until
people came to claim them.

This loss of life was five times bigger than 9/11 in America, yet it
didn't trigger any change in French society. When birth rates are so
low, it creates a tremendous tax burden on the young. Under those
circumstances, keeping mom and dad alive is not an attractive option. That's why
euthanasia is becoming so popular in most European countries. The only
country that doesn't permit (and even encourage) euthanasia is
Germany, because of all the baggage from World War II.

The European economy is beginning to fracture. The Euro is down.
Countries like Italy are starting to talk about pulling out of the
European Union because it is killing them. When things get bad economically in
Europe, they tend to get very nasty politically. The canary in the mine
is anti-Semitism. When it goes up, it means trouble is coming. Current
levels of anti-Semitism are higher than ever. Germany won't launch another
war, but Europe will likely get shabbier, more dangerous and less pleasant to
live in.

Japan has a birth rate of 1.3 and has no intention of bringing in
immigrants. By 2020, one out of every five Japanese will be 70 years
old. Property values in Japan have dropped every year for the past 14 years.
The country is simply shutting down.

In the U.S. we also have an aging population. Boomers are starting to
retire at a massive rate. These retirements will have several major
impacts:

· Possible massive sell-off of large four-bedroom houses and a
movement to condos.

· An enormous drain on the treasury. Boomers vote, and they
want their benefits, even if it means putting a crushing tax burden on
their kids to get them. Social Security will be a huge problem. As this
generation ages, it will start to drain the system. We are the only
country in the world where there are no age limits on medical procedures.

· An enormous drain on the health care system. This will also
increase the tax burden on the young, which will cause them to delay
marriage and having families, which will drive down the birth rate even
further.

Although scary, these demographics also present enormous opportunities
for products and services tailored to aging populations. There will be
tremendous demand for caring for older people, especially those who
don't need nursing homes but need some level of care. Some people will have a
business where they take care of three or four people in their homes.
The demand for that type of service and for products to physically care for
aging people will be huge.

Make sure the demographics of your business are attuned to where the
action is. For example, you don't want to be a baby food company in
Europe or Japan. Demographics are much underrated as an indicator of where the
opportunities are. Businesses need customers. Go where the customers
are.

4. Restructuring of American Business

The restructuring of American business means we are coming to the end
of the age of the employer and employee. With all this fracturing of
businesses into different and smaller units, employers can't
guarantee jobs anymore because they don't know what their companies will look like
next year. Everyone is on their way to becoming an independent contractor.
The new workforce contract will be, "Show up at the my office five days a
week and do what I want you to do, but you handle your own insurance,
benefits, health care and everything else."

Husbands and wives are becoming economic units. They take different
jobs and work different shifts depending on where they are in their
careers and families. They make tradeoffs to put together a compensation
package to take care of the family. This used to happen only with highly educated
professionals with high incomes. Now it is happening at the level of
the factory floor worker. Couples at all levels are designing their
compensation packages based on their individual needs. The only way
this can work is if everything is portable and flexible, which requires a
huge shift in the American economy.

The U.S. is in the process of building the world's first 21st century
model economy. The only other countries doing this are U.K. and
Australia. The model is fast, flexible, highly productive and unstable in that it
is always fracturing and re-fracturing. This will increase the economic
gap between the U.S. and everybody else, especially Europe and Japan.

At the same time, the military gap is increasing. Other than China, we
are the only country that is continuing to put money into their
military. Plus, we are the only military getting on-the-ground military
experience through our war in Iraq. We know which high-tech weapons are working
and which ones aren't. There is almost no one who can take us on
economically or militarily. There has never been a superpower in this position
before.

On the one hand, this makes the U.S. a magnet for bright and ambitious
people. It also makes us a target. We are becoming one of the last
holdouts of the traditional Judeo-Christian culture. There is no better
place in the world to be in business and raise children. The U. S. is
by far the best place to have an idea, form a business and put it into the
marketplace. We take it for granted, but it isn't as available in
other countries of the world.

Ultimately, it's an issue of culture. The only people who can hurt us
are ourselves, by losing our culture. If we give up our Judeo-Christian
culture, we become just like the Europeans. The culture war is the
whole ballgame. If we lose it, there isn't another America to pull us out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

Herb Meyer served during the Reagan administration as special assistant to the
Director of Central Intelligence and Vice Chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence
Council. In these positions, he managed production of the U.S. National Intelligence
Estimates and other top-secret projections for the President and his national security advisers.
Meyer is widely credited with being the first senior U.S. Government official to forecast the
Soviet Union's collapse, for which he later was awarded the U.S. National Intelligence
Distinguished Service Medal, the intelligence community's highest honor. Formerly an associate
editor of FORTUNE, he is also the author of several books.

Herbert Meyer
P.O. Box 2089
Friday Harbor, WA 98250

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Panzerknacker
08-27-2007, 09:54 PM
Very interesting information, I am printing your post to read it later

Thanks George. :D

George Eller
08-27-2007, 10:00 PM
Very interesting information, I am printing your post to read it later

Thanks George. :D
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Anytime Panzerknacker :D

Cheers

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redcoat
08-28-2007, 06:09 AM
Biggest load of gobbledygook I've read in a long time:rolleyes:

Rising Sun*
08-28-2007, 07:49 AM
To get back to what I think was one of Panzerknacker's original points, which is that some people and organisations seem to be caving in to vocal and hostile minorities within their own communities and nations, or at least was implicit in his posts, it might not always be that the vocal minority is hostile or aggressive or forcing the unpalatable changes.

Here in sunny Oz, as elsewhere, we've have various instances of, for example, Christmas being cancelled in kindergartens and junior schools in case it offends those who aren't Christians, i.e. Muslims, because nobody ever gave a stuff about Jews and atheists.

We've also had instances of other things unremarkable in the dominant community being altered, such as ham sandwiches being taken off the menu at local council functions in case it offended minorities, i.e. Muslims, because nobody worried about it when it was just the occasional vegetarian or undemanding Jew attending such functions.

I've looked into several of these instances that generated a lot of predictable publicity adverse to Muslims, portraying them as hostile to our culture (yes, I know that ‘culture’ is an odd word to use to describe Australia's dominant customs :D) and aggressively demanding that the rest of Australia must conform to their rigid Islamic beliefs.

What came out of these events, once one got past the prejudiced over-reactions by talk-back shock jocks and tabloid journalists to the imagined intentions of an imminent Muslim takeover of Australia , was that in no instance had any Muslim demanded anything.

The few Muslim leaders and community members who got the rare chance to offer their views on talk back radio etc about what they thought, as distinct from what people who knew nothing about them accused them of thinking and doing, were unanimously of the view that they couldn’t give a stuff about any of these things, as long they weren’t forced to observe things they didn’t agree with. That is, incidentally, entirely consistent with the Koran’s teaching on how Muslims should live in other communities.

The few Muslims who were allowed to be heard by the radio etc guardians of our culture were also unanimous that nobody was trying to force them to observe things they didn’t agree with, and that they couldn’t, for example, give a stuff whether or not schools had Christmas things with Nativity scenes or whether ham sandwiches were served at council functions, as long as they weren’t required respectively to participate in or eat them.

The problems weren’t caused by fanatical minority Muslims demanding that the rest of Australia conform to their views but by well meaning non-Muslims who are fanatical in their ill-informed beliefs about being pathologically inclusive, so that society should operate to ensure nothing happens which might even remotely offend the views of tree-hugging feral trans-gender bisexual disabled exploited migrant Hare Krishna sex slaves … blah blah blah …

It’s easy to interpret an event as confirming the existence of undesirable influences in a community or nation. Too often, it’s the wrong undesirable influences which are accused of doing it.

Panzerknacker
08-28-2007, 07:10 PM
Biggest load of gobbledygook I've read in a long time


Are you talking about my interpretation or Ellers links ?

Do you have something more important to say or just like the shorcuts discalificatives ?

Gen. Sandworm
08-29-2007, 06:25 AM
Well thats the schools choice but I dont think its a good one. They are going to learn about it one way or another. My Stepdad never learned about the Holocaust. He had just heard the name and basics of what happened. One day I figured out that he knew next to nothing about what happened. So I decided to show him Schindler's List. He watched the whole movie. I could see once it was over he was glad. To this day he refuses to watch that movie again and it almost makes him sick to his stomach to think about it. He is not a stupid man and knows that people can be quite evil. However I dont think he (like most) had ever seen it on that level before.

IMO its a good thing to study and remember coz that could happen in any country.......not just Germany.

Rising Sun*
08-29-2007, 08:27 AM
Well thats the schools choice but I dont think its a good one. They are going to learn about it one way or another. My Stepdad never learned about the Holocaust. He had just heard the name and basics of what happened. One day I figured out that he knew next to nothing about what happened. So I decided to show him Schindler's List. He watched the whole movie. I could see once it was over he was glad. To this day he refuses to watch that movie again and it almost makes him sick to his stomach to think about it. He is not a stupid man and knows that people can be quite evil. However I dont think he (like most) had ever seen it on that level before.

IMO its a good thing to study and remember coz that could happen in any country.......not just Germany.

I don't know that's it's so terrible to leave the Holocaust out of school curricula.

It's just one of a number appalling exercises in human history which, because of Western cultural orientation and other influences, gets a much greater degree of attention than it merits on a comparative basis with other events in modern history such as, for example, Stalinist purges; Japan rampaging through China and the Pacific; Partition in India; Algeria; Angola; the Cultural Revolution; Pol Pot; Bosnia etc; Rwanda, and currently Dhafur.

One problem is that schools' curricula are too crowded, with demands from all sorts of interests who want their pet subjects covered, along with bicycle education, driver education, drug education, sex education, consumer education, etc etc etc all presented in a non-discriminatory, gender inclusive, racially tolerant, religiously tolerant (including apparently by Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish and sundry sects' schools which all believe they're the adherents of the one true faith) and generally impossibly balanced way.

They can't cover everything.

It's not necessary to focus on the triumph of evil, like the Holocaust, to make people think, nor to do it as a history subject

For example, Atticus Finch in Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird is an outstanding example of the moral man in a dark and complex situation.

While there's a fashion in modern education for rubbing kids' noses in what was bad and went wrong, often to extreme levels such as one of our fabled Australian high school text books not so long ago which referred to soldiers as 'harm workers' :rolleyes:, there's a lot to be said for an older style which extolled the positive virtues of exemplary people rather than slagging everyone in sight. (Except self-styled 'radical' teachers, who are the repository of all community virtue. :evil:)

Of course, we could take a radical step and decide that parents are primarily responsible for the moral education of their children and for teaching them to ride bikes and to look both ways before crossing the road and to brush their teeth before going to bed, with some reinforcement from schools rather than making them primarily responsible for such things, but that is just such an obviously silly idea that nobody would ever see any sense in it.

Gen. Sandworm
08-29-2007, 08:38 AM
It's just one of a number appalling exercises in human history which, because of Western cultural orientation and other influences, gets a much greater degree of attention than it merits on a comparative basis with other events in modern history such as, for example, Stalinist purges; Japan rampaging through China and the Pacific; Partition in India; Algeria; Angola; the Cultural Revolution; Pol Pot; Bosnia etc; Rwanda, and currently Dhafur.


I think the should touch on all these issues! Not just the Halocaust. Genocide will not end in the future but we should be aware of what it is. Thats how I see it.

Rising Sun*
08-29-2007, 09:06 AM
I think the should touch on all these issues! Not just the Halocaust. Genocide will not end in the future but we should be aware of what it is. Thats how I see it.

True.

But try teaching any of it to a bunch of 15 year olds in the West whose main interest is the type of case to put on their bloody iPod, or a bunch of kids about the same (or possbily much younger) age somewhere else who, if they're lucky enough to have a school, are mainly interested in killing everyone who doesn't think like or look like them or is just the wrong religion, tribe, or clan, and are being encouraged in that belief by some local character who they think is an admirable man but who you and I would think is a dangerous fanatic. Pretty much the same view that man has of our respective leaders. And we're probably all correct!

The biggest problem is that most of the people who fight wars and who do other violent things are usually too young to respond to much beyond their primal instincts and dangerously simple ideas like 'patriotism'.

Older people, who rarely fight in wars, know that there's a lot more to it.

The problem is, you can't put an old head on young shoulders.

Which, alas, is pretty much what is required if Holocaust or any other studies of history are to have any effect on young people in the education process.

George Eller
08-29-2007, 10:04 AM
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When I was in High School during the mid to late 1970's we were taught about the Holocaust as part of our world history course. We did not have a course dedicated to Holocaust studies. But, at least it was given some coverage.

One week before the start of World War II, Adolf Hitler allegedly commented, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" or "Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" (alternate translation). He was referring to the attempted genocide of the Armenians by the Ottoman Turks during the First World War. (The quote is now inscribed on one of the walls of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_quote
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/hitler.html

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana
http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/George_Santayana/
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2042.html

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Firefly
08-30-2007, 04:21 PM
Hmm, the trouble is and I'm not trying to offend anyone here, how long is a subject relevant? I was taught about ww2 including the Holocaust, my Daughter was taught about ww1. When Persia fought Greece (or the Greek states) in the 500's BC, both sides did some heinous things to each other, including the Persians persecutions and deliberate transplanting of a heck of a lot of Greek ionians (impaling thousands etc etc).

My point is that man can be very inhuman when he wants too. I dont mind kids not being taught directly about the Holocaust, it doesnt mean that we condone the events it just means that its not as paramount in the 21st century as it was to so many people in the late 20th.

George Eller
08-30-2007, 05:39 PM
Hmm, the trouble is and I'm not trying to offend anyone here, how long is a subject relevant? I was taught about ww2 including the Holocaust, my Daughter was taught about ww1. When Persia fought Greece (or the Greek states) in the 500's BC, both sides did some heinous things to each other, including the Persians persecutions and deliberate transplanting of a heck of a lot of Greek ionians (impaling thousands etc etc).

My point is that man can be very inhuman when he wants too. I dont mind kids not being taught directly about the Holocaust, it doesnt mean that we condone the events it just means that its not as paramount in the 21st century as it was to so many people in the late 20th.
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Maybe classes should be taught about man's inhumanity towards his fellow man. Some examples from more recent history: the Balkans, Rwanda, Kurdistan, Cambodia...

Last I heard, anti-semitism is still on the rise in Europe and the Middle-East.

Whether or not more emphasis on studying the Holocaust would reverse the trend - I don't know. I think that probably much of the bigotry that exists in this world is learned at home.

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Panzerknacker
08-30-2007, 07:16 PM
My point is that man can be very inhuman when he wants too. I dont mind kids not being taught directly about the Holocaust, it doesnt mean that we condone the events it just means that its not as paramount in the 21st century as it was to so many people in the late 20th.


Who cares about 6 million jews aniway.

Rising Sun*
08-31-2007, 06:38 AM
Who cares about 6 million jews aniway.

Far more people than care about 1 million plus Cambodians, and millions of others who've been massacred in the past century by other evil regimes. And not so evil ones, either, when one looks at the indigenous peoples damaged by supposedly good governments in supposedly decent nations over the same period.

Gen. Sandworm
08-31-2007, 07:22 AM
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Maybe classes should be taught about man's inhumanity towards his fellow man.

Well war itself is pretty inhuman as well. I guess there is difference between killing a soldier of a country you are at war with vs killing a civilian for no reason. Yet both have the same end result.......death. Maybe we should quit drawing lines and call death what it is?

Sounds to me like the school wants to forget about teaching genocide and just stick to war. You can talk about all the whys but if ppl dont see the horror that runs along with war then why even teach that.

Try teaching a class on sex ed and just describing the possible STDs. Then try it again with pictures of what some of these look like. Im sure you will get two different reactions. Might not change their ways but im sure the will be off to the doctor alot quicker if they notice something funny down there!

George Eller
08-31-2007, 11:32 AM
Well war itself is pretty inhuman as well. I guess there is difference between killing a soldier of a country you are at war with vs killing a civilian for no reason. Yet both have the same end result.......death. Maybe we should quit drawing lines and call death what it is?

Sounds to me like the school wants to forget about teaching genocide and just stick to war. You can talk about all the whys but if ppl dont see the horror that runs along with war then why even teach that.

Try teaching a class on sex ed and just describing the possible STDs. Then try it again with pictures of what some of these look like. Im sure you will get two different reactions. Might not change their ways but im sure the will be off to the doctor alot quicker if they notice something funny down there!
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I think that the underlying roots of genocide run deeper and are based on long standing hatred based on ethnic, cultural and/or religious differences. They can run for centuries or even thousands of years. The goal tends to be more sinister with the ultimate objective being the complete destruction of the targeted people (e.g: Armenians, Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Bosnians, Kurds, Tutsis, etc.).

In war, the duration is more temporary and alliances are subject to shifting. Old enemies can become friends and former allies can become enemies. Their causes and objectives are more varied ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War ), but no less violent or brutal. Massive destruction and death can result, but generally not the complete annihilation of either side.

Maybe education is not the complete answer. IMHO, until people's hearts and attitudes change these issues will remain.

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Firefly
08-31-2007, 03:11 PM
Who cares about 6 million jews aniway.

If you read my post it wasnt about not caring about anything. Simply put, time passes and there are a lot of wrongdoings that could be taught about history.

Point being, how long should it be paramount?

1000ydstare
09-20-2007, 06:15 AM
Other genocides.....

6 million is the accepted number of Jews, and others, killed in the Holocaust.

However.

Bosnia
a three year war (with some ethnic cleansing) between 250,000 and 300,000.

Rwanda (1st War)
a 100 day killing spree during 1994 (mainly with machete) between 800,000 and 1,000,000. 500,000 of which were Tutsis.

Berundi
Civil war (1993 to 2006) 300,000 killed.

Congo
First civil war (1996 - 1997) over 100,000 killed, 60,000 in one Armies slow advance through the country.
Second civil war (1998 - 2003) 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 killed (some by malnutriion and diesase rather than direct action.

Khmer Rouge
Set upon the Vietnamise population of Cambodia (400,000) late '60s.
during the same timve frame the civil war (which went on in to the '70s) took 600,000 and 1,000,000 lives (not including the Vietnamese).
During it's reign of Cambodia anything up to 3,000,000 (generally accepted as 1.5 million.
A motto from the reign "To keep you is no benefit, to lose you is no loss" in relation to the population.
It was once of the most deadliest regimes in the history of the world (when you compare the population of only 7.5 million (est) at the time.

Stalinist Russia.
Under Uncle Joe, the Russians have specific numbers of some 3,000,000 killed by the State (in records). 800,000 executed, 1,700,000 died in the Gulags and a further 400,000 in forced relocations.

These are beleived to be woefully under estimated. Whilst some claim up to 60 million. 20,000,000 is more likely.

1.5 million executed
5 million in Gulags
1.7 million (out of 7.5 million)from the deportions/relocations
1 million German and other POWs, kept at the end of the war. (Pauluses Army only had 5,000 survivors return home from some 100,000 POWs taken at Stalidgrad).
10 Million from this.

And also approx 8 - 9 million from the 32/33 famine.

Nearly 20,000,000 deaths.

Chevan
09-20-2007, 07:37 AM
6 million is the accepted number of Jews, and others, killed in the Holocaust.

No OTHERs ydstare . ONLY the jews.
Coz the jewish authors and historians refused to join to the holocaust the mass execution of the gipsys and other "low races"

Stalinist Russia.
Under Uncle Joe, the Russians have specific numbers of some 3,000,000 killed by the State (in records). 800,000 executed, 1,700,000 died in the Gulags and a further 400,000 in forced relocations.

it's not correct.
According the official NKVD arhives figures the total quantity of the executed since the 1931-1953 i.e over 20 years was about 800 000. Plus perished about the same i.e 1 mln of peoples.
The victims of Stalin's terror was no more 2 mln of peoples.
Plus approximatelly 500 000 of deported Chechens&Ingush , 20 000 Crimea Tatars and about 300 000 of poles who was deported to the deep Russa and Syberia in the 1939-40.
Total about 1 mln of peoples.


These are beleived to be woefully under estimated. Whilst some claim up to 60 million. 20,000,000 is more likely.

the 20/40/60 of millions of the Stalin's terror is the Nazy/cold war propoganda ( or "historians" like Solzenitsyn, Volkogonov, Resun and ets sort of D.Irving in the West).


Nearly 20,000,000 deaths.
The bullsh.......
Indeed the most blood period was in early the 1918-22 during the Civil war and when the Bloody Bolshevics hold the Red Terror agains "class enemies" ( that were in reality mostly Russian origin intelligencia).
In this period periched from 2 to 5 mln of peoples ( this is inpossible to calculate).
BTW the most amazing is the fact that the Western "historians" boldly added those victims to the Stalins terror.
Indeed Stalin had no relation to the Red terror, that was sunctioned the Trozkij-Bernshtain, Lenin-Blank and Sverdlov-Movshevich - the top leaders of the Bolshevic gov at that time..
However i have to say that NOT ONLY Bolshevick mass kdded the peoples - but also and White Army.
Moreover the White Army command ( who officially supported by the West) often closed eyes for the jewish pogroms in Ukraine.

Nickdfresh
09-20-2007, 09:55 AM
No OTHERs ydstare . ONLY the jews.
Coz the jewish authors and historians refused to join to the holocaust the mass execution of the gipsys and other "low races"

i...


Like the Ukrainians starved to death in the Holomodor?

Chevan
09-20-2007, 01:06 PM
Like the Ukrainians starved to death in the Holomodor?
Holodomor?Why not?
Good idea Nick.
Mate the Holodomore wasn't the ethnical terror- it was a common policy in the Whole USSR in the beginning of the 1930. Not only in Ukraine.
The victims of Holodomor among the all ethnical groups- i could yeasy provet it for you
Look http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5346
However the reason of such great death rate in Ukrain was the RESAULT of policy own Ukrainians Communists and Personaly , ardent ukrainizator, the chairman OF SNK OF UKRAINIAN SSR Chubar who signed the special inhuman decision "fight with the sabotage". ( tha key law that forbid any selling and importing the food to the Ukraine from the oher regions).
So in the prospect if the Ukrainians want to join the Holodomore to the definition of Holocaus- i'm absolutly agree they have full right for this. The Policy of Local Communists in Ukraine clear proved - they hated the own Ukrainians.
But unfortinatelly Nick i have to say that this is juct unfounded dream- do know why?
Coz the jews knowing the fact that the Communist of the Jewish origin who controlled the Soviet Comparty and whole communist Soviet gov at that time WERE RESPONSIBLE for the such unhuman policy of collectivisation.
Thus any connection of Ukrainian Holodomor with Holocaust is the nathing but DEMAGOGY that WOULD inevitably have the ONLY anti-semitic sense and nagitave resaults for the Jewish community.
Becouse the any Historian's commission that would investigate the Policy of Bolshevics during the 1920-early 1930 would inevitable discovered the staff of the Bolshevic gov- and should declared its families......And everybody could convince - who was responsible in gov except Stalin ( certainly not only him)
This WE ALL know it was a lovely famouse method of Nazy race-hate propoganda - to connect the Holodomore, GULAG and other Bolshevics crimes with the Ethnical origin of Bolshevic leaders.
Do not be a naive Nick;)

P.S.How do you think guys , is the ethnical origin of the Bolshevc leader forbidden theme in the Britain schools?:D

Panzerknacker
09-20-2007, 05:24 PM
Other genocides.....

6 million is the accepted number of Jews, and others, killed in the Holocaust.

However.

Bosnia
a three year war (with some ethnic cleansing) between 250,000 and 300,000.

Rwanda (1st War)
a 100 day killing spree during 1994 (mainly with machete) between 800,000 and 1,000,000. 500,000 of which were Tutsis.

Berundi
Civil war (1993 to 2006) 300,000 killed.

Congo
First civil war (1996 - 1997) over 100,000 killed, 60,000 in one Armies slow advance through the country.
Second civil war (1998 - 2003) 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 killed (some by malnutriion and diesase rather than direct action.

Khmer Rouge
Set upon the Vietnamise population of Cambodia (400,000) late '60s.
during the same timve frame the civil war (which went on in to the '70s) took 600,000 and 1,000,000 lives (not including the Vietnamese).
During it's reign of Cambodia anything up to 3,000,000 (generally accepted as 1.5 million.
A motto from the reign "To keep you is no benefit, to lose you is no loss" in relation to the population.
It was once of the most deadliest regimes in the history of the world (when you compare the population of only 7.5 million (est) at the time.

Stalinist Russia.
Under Uncle Joe, the Russians have specific numbers of some 3,000,000 killed by the State (in records). 800,000 executed, 1,700,000 died in the Gulags and a further 400,000 in forced relocations

I think all the holocausts/ massacres like those above deserve his recordation, this is not in conflict with teaching the holocaust history.:roll:

Egorka
09-21-2007, 03:53 AM
6 million is the accepted number of Jews, and others, killed in the Holocaust.


Guys,

How come you do not see that 6 million is a symbolic number, not a real one.
It is a number that fits to the Judaic tradition. The number of victims was adjusted to fit this tradition.

Rising Sun*
09-21-2007, 09:28 AM
Guys,

How come you do not see that 6 million is a symbolic number, not a real one.
It is a number that fits to the Judaic tradition. The number of victims was adjusted to fit this tradition.


Regardless of the exact figure. it's inescapable that the Nazis had the most to do with adjusting the numbers towards six million.

Nickdfresh
09-21-2007, 01:30 PM
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I think that the underlying roots of genocide run deeper and are based on long standing hatred based on ethnic, cultural and/or religious differences. They can run for centuries or even thousands of years. The goal tends to be more sinister with the ultimate objective being the complete destruction of the targeted people (e.g: Armenians, Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Bosnians, Kurds, Tutsis, etc.).

In war, the duration is more temporary and alliances are subject to shifting. Old enemies can become friends and former allies can become enemies. Their causes and objectives are more varied ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War ), but no less violent or brutal. Massive destruction and death can result, but generally not the complete annihilation of either side.

Maybe education is not the complete answer. IMHO, until people's hearts and attitudes change these issues will remain.

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Other genocides.....

6 million is the accepted number of Jews, and others, killed in the Holocaust.

However.

Bosnia
a three year war (with some ethnic cleansing) between 250,000 and 300,000.

Rwanda (1st War)
a 100 day killing spree during 1994 (mainly with machete) between 800,000 and 1,000,000. 500,000 of which were Tutsis.

Berundi
Civil war (1993 to 2006) 300,000 killed.

Congo
First civil war (1996 - 1997) over 100,000 killed, 60,000 in one Armies slow advance through the country.
Second civil war (1998 - 2003) 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 killed (some by malnutriion and diesase rather than direct action.

Khmer Rouge
Set upon the Vietnamise population of Cambodia (400,000) late '60s.
during the same timve frame the civil war (which went on in to the '70s) took 600,000 and 1,000,000 lives (not including the Vietnamese).
During it's reign of Cambodia anything up to 3,000,000 (generally accepted as 1.5 million.
A motto from the reign "To keep you is no benefit, to lose you is no loss" in relation to the population.
It was once of the most deadliest regimes in the history of the world (when you compare the population of only 7.5 million (est) at the time.

Stalinist Russia.
Under Uncle Joe, the Russians have specific numbers of some 3,000,000 killed by the State (in records). 800,000 executed, 1,700,000 died in the Gulags and a further 400,000 in forced relocations.

These are beleived to be woefully under estimated. Whilst some claim up to 60 million. 20,000,000 is more likely.

1.5 million executed
5 million in Gulags
1.7 million (out of 7.5 million)from the deportions/relocations
1 million German and other POWs, kept at the end of the war. (Pauluses Army only had 5,000 survivors return home from some 100,000 POWs taken at Stalidgrad).
10 Million from this.

And also approx 8 - 9 million from the 32/33 famine.

Nearly 20,000,000 deaths.


And let's not forget the first modern genocide, committed by the Turks against the Armenians. I think over one million died, which was most of the Turkish-Armenians...

I was watching a documentary on PBS where they interviewed the producer/director who said that to this day, the Turkish gov't will send hecklers, from the local embassy, in any nation he speaks and devotes significant resources to covering this event up, or attacking historians that study it...

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Chevan
09-23-2007, 06:45 AM
And let's not forget the first modern genocide, committed by the Turks against the Armenians. I think over one million died, which was most of the Turkish-Armenians...

Not just armanians , but also and Kurds. Turks treated them enough.
This sad fact that the member of Nato (that participated in Iraq) untill today deny any the any responsibility for the mass crimes aganins ethnical minorities in turkish terrotory.
BTW did you see the last turkish anti-american film "Valley of the Wolves: Iraq"?

Firefly
09-24-2007, 05:56 PM
I think the Turks simply call it relocation.

Nickdfresh
09-24-2007, 07:09 PM
Not just armanians , but also and Kurds. Turks treated them enough.
This sad fact that the member of Nato (that participated in Iraq) untill today deny any the any responsibility for the mass crimes aganins ethnical minorities in turkish terrotory.
BTW did you see the last turkish anti-american film "Valley of the Wolves: Iraq"?

I haven't seen the film. But the cont'd Turkish pogrom on the Kurds is well known. They've been sabre-rattling over the talk of an independent Kurdistan dug out of Northern Iraq. I think if any good comes out of America's lousy foray in the desert, and independent Kurdish homeland my be it...

George Eller
10-11-2007, 03:40 PM
And let's not forget the first modern genocide, committed by the Turks against the Armenians. I think over one million died, which was most of the Turkish-Armenians...

I was watching a documentary on PBS where they interviewed the producer/director who said that to this day, the Turkish gov't will send hecklers, from the local embassy, in any nation he speaks and devotes significant resources to covering this event up, or attacking historians that study it...

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
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Turkey Recalls Ambassador to U.S. Over Armenian Genocide Bill
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301221,00.html
Fox News / Associated Press
Thursday, October 11, 2007

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey ordered its ambassador in Washington to return to Turkey for consultations over a U.S. House panel's approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said Thursday.

The ambassador would stay in Turkey for about a week or 10 days for discussions about the measure, said Foreign Ministry spokesman Levent Bilman.

"We are not withdrawing our ambassador. We have asked him to come to Turkey for some consultations," he said. "The ambassador was given instructions to return and will come at his earliest convenience."

State Department spokesman Tom Casey, said he was unaware of Turkey's decision, but said the United States wants to continue to have good relations with Turkey.

"I'll let the Turkish government speak for itself," he said. "I think that the Turkish government has telegraphed for a long time, has been very vocal and very public about its concerns about this and has said that they did intend to act in very forceful way if this happens."

Private NTV television said Turkey's naval commander had canceled a planned trip to the United States over the bill.

Earlier, the U.S. ambassador to Turkey, Ross Wilson, was invited to the Foreign Ministry, where Turkish officials conveyed their "unease" over the bill and asked that the Bush administration do all in its power to stop the bill from passing in the full House, a Foreign Ministry official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to make press statements.

The House Foreign Affairs Committee passed the bill Wednesday despite intense lobbying by Turkish officials and opposition from President Bush. The vote was a triumph for well-organized Armenian-American interest groups who have lobbied Congress for decades to pass a resolution. The administration will now try to pressure Democratic leaders in Congress not to schedule a vote, although it is expected to pass.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates reiterated his opposition to the resolution Thursday, saying the measure could hurt relations at a time when U.S. forces in Iraq rely heavily on Turkish permission to use their airspace for U.S. air cargo flights.

Relations are already strained by accusations that the U.S. is unwilling to help Turkey fight Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq.

About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo headed for Iraq goes through Turkey, as does about one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military in Iraq. U.S. bases also get water and other supplies by land from Turkish truckers who cross into the northern region of Iraqi Kurdistan.

Historians estimate up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by genocide scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, denies the deaths constituted genocide, saying that the toll has been inflated and that those killed were victims of civil war and unrest.

"It is not possible to accept such an accusation of a crime which was never committed by the Turkish nation," the Turkish government said Thursday. "It is blatantly obvious that the House Committee on Foreign Affairs does not have a task or function to rewrite history by distorting a matter which specifically concerns the common history of Turks and Armenians."

Armenian President Robert Kocharian welcomed the vote, saying: "We hope this process will lead to a full recognition by the United States of America ... of the genocide."

Speaking to reporters Thursday after meeting European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, Kocharian also appealed to Turkey to join talks on restoring bilateral relations.

Turkey is under no pressure from the EU to call the Armenian killings genocide. The European Commission criticized France last year when that country's lower house voted to make it a crime to deny the killings were genocide. The upper house did not take up the bill, so it never became law.

Turkey has warned that relations with the United States will suffer if the bill passes, but has not specified possible repercussions. U.S. diplomats have been quietly preparing Turkish officials for weeks for the likelihood that the resolution would pass, asking for a muted response.

Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns said the Turks "have not been threatening anything specific" in response to the vote, and that he hopes the "disappointment can be limited to statements."

Turkey ended its military ties with France over its bill last year. But a decision to cut far more expansive military ties with the United States could have serious consequences for Turkey's standing as a reliable ally of the West.

"I don't think that Turkey will go so far as to put in doubt its whole network of allied relations with the United States," said Ruben Safrastian, director of the Institute of Eastern Studies of the Armenian National Academy of Sciences. "In the end, not only is the United States interested in Turkey, but Turkey is interested in the United States."

Adding to tensions, Turkey is considering launching a military offensive into Iraq against the Kurdish rebels — a move the United States strongly opposes because it could destabilize one of the few relatively peaceful areas in Iraq.

Iraq's Kurdish region is heavily dependent on trade with Turkey, which provides the region with electricity and oil products. Annual trade at Habur gate, the main border crossing, is more than $10 billion.

In a recent letter, Turkish President Abdullah Gul warned there would be "serious troubles" if Congress adopted the measure. He reacted quickly Wednesday, saying "some politicians in the United States have once again sacrificed important matters to petty domestic politics despite all calls to common sense."

Turkish newspapers denounced the decision. "27 foolish Americans," the daily Vatan said on its front-page headline, in reference to legislators who voted for the bill.

Hurriyet called the resolution: "Bill of hatred."

The U.S. Embassy urged Americans in Turkey to be alert for violent repercussions. Wilson said he regretted the committee's decision and said he hoped it would not be passed by the House.

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Sidebar:


Amin Al-Husseini (former Mufti of Jerusalem) was a Turkish officer during the First World War and participated in the Armenian Genocide.

1914-1917 Husseini’s First Taste of Jihad - Allegiance to Ottoman Empire.
Amin Al-Husseini swears allegiance to the Ottoman Empire during the Armenian genocide. He is an officer stationed in Smyrna and participates first-hand in the Armenian genocide. One and a half million Christians are slaughtered under the sword of Islamic Jihad by the Ottoman Army. Allegiance to Ottoman Empire and Islamic world take-over will be echoed by Osama Bin Laden in his post-September 11th declaration.

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/Ottoman-officer_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com

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Nickdfresh
10-11-2007, 04:53 PM
Most certainly connected to the build up or Turkish forces along their border with Kurdistan/northern Iraq...

Firefly
10-11-2007, 05:00 PM
While theres nothing wrong with the conversations in this thread it has strayed far from topic I think. But as it is very interesting I think this one should either be renamed or just continue.

George Eller
10-15-2007, 04:22 PM
And let's not forget the first modern genocide, committed by the Turks against the Armenians. I think over one million died, which was most of the Turkish-Armenians...

I was watching a documentary on PBS where they interviewed the producer/director who said that to this day, the Turkish gov't will send hecklers, from the local embassy, in any nation he speaks and devotes significant resources to covering this event up, or attacking historians that study it...

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

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Turkey Recalls Ambassador to U.S. Over Armenian Genocide Bill
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301221,00.html
Fox News / Associated Press
Thursday, October 11, 2007

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey ordered its ambassador in Washington to return to Turkey for consultations over a U.S. House panel's approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said Thursday....

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=110090&postcount=50

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Turkish Government Seeks Authorization for Cross-Border Iraq Operation
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301748,00.html
Fox News / Associated Press
Monday, October 15, 2007

ANKARA, Turkey — The Turkish government will seek parliamentary approval for a military operation against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, a government spokesman said Monday, taking action on one of two major issues straining relations with Washington.

The spokesman, Cemil Cicek, said he hoped Parliament would vote on the motion this week — passage is considered likely — but indicated that the government would still prefer a solution to the conflict that does not involve a cross-border offensive.

"Our hope is that there will be no need to use this motion," Cicek said.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's government twice acquired similar authorizations from the Parliament in 2003, but did not act on them.

Cicek insisted the only target was the rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party, known as the PKK.

"We have always respected the sovereignty of Iraq, which is a friendly and brotherly country to us," Cicek said. "But the reality that everyone knows is that this terrorist organization, which has bases in the north of Iraq, is attacking the territorial integrity of Turkey and its citizens."

The statement appeared to be aimed at reassuring Iraq's central government as well as Iraqi Kurds, who run their own administration in northern Iraq.

Fighting along the border with Iraq was reported over the weekend, where Turkey's military said it "responded heavily" to attacks from northern Iraq by Kurdish fighters on Friday. Iraqi Kurds reported that Turkish artillery hit their territory.

Senior rebel commander Duran Kalkan said the Turkish military would suffer a serious blow if it launches a cross-border offensive, saying it would "be bogged down in a quagmire," the pro-Kurdish Firat news agency reported Monday.

Oil prices rose Monday, partly reflecting concerns over a conflict that could open up a new front in the Iraq war. Light, sweet crude for November delivery hit a new high of $85.19 a barrel before retreating in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange, midafternoon in Europe.

Cabinet ministers also were expected to debate retaliatory measures if the U.S. Congress passes a resolution that labels the World War I-era killings of Armenians as genocide.

A U.S. House panel approved the resolution last week, infuriating Turkish leaders who said ties with their NATO ally would suffer.

At issue in the resolution is the killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turks. Many international historians contend the World War I-era deaths amounted to genocide, but Turkey says the mass killings and deportations were not systematic and that many Turkish Muslims died in the chaos of war.

Turkish anger over the genocide resolution has led to commentary that Turkey would be less likely to take into account U.S. opposition to a unilateral Turkish action in Iraq, which could destabilize a relatively peaceful part of the country.

Turkey's top general warned over the weekend that military ties between Turkey and the United States could be seriously damaged if the genocide resolution passes Congress.

Tony Fratto, a White House spokesman, said President Bush had no plans to intervene in the vote, although the administration has been lobbying intensely to persuade lawmakers to reject the resolution.

"There should be no question of the president's views on this issue and the damage that this resolution could do to U.S. foreign policy interests," Fratto told reporters Monday aboard Air Force One.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said she will schedule a vote soon on the resolution.

Fratto said the White House does not want Pelosi to bring it to the floor; should it come to a vote, he said, "We will strongly encourage members not to support it."

Turkey, a major cargo hub for U.S. forces in Iraq, has recalled its ambassador to Washington for consultations and warned that there might be a cut in logistical support to the United States.

About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo headed for Iraq goes through Turkey, as does about one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military there. U.S. bases also get water and other supplies carried in by Turkish truckers who cross into Iraq's northern Kurdish region.

In 1975, Washington imposed an arms embargo that lasted three years against Ankara following its invasion of Cyprus, using U.S. weapons. Turkey, a Cold War ally of the United States, responded by limiting U.S. military and intelligence activities on its soil.

Turkey has urged the United States and Iraq to crack down on PKK rebels who have been fighting for autonomy in southeast Turkey since 1984.

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