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Chevan
08-09-2007, 05:07 AM
Yet another one split off from the Vietnam Thread - pdf27


Excellent thread, and it is not at all off-topic...

I've read somewhat extensively, and have to say that I do admire Hoffman, if not totally agree with him. But I think another figure that often gets ignored is David Dellinger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dellinger) (one of the Chicago 8 - later to become the Chicago 7 after Black Panther member Bobby Seale was removed from the trial). Again, I do not agree with all of his beliefs, but I admire his absolute convictions to them (a proto/non-hypocritical vision of Christianity, pacifism and "forceful nonviolence" [not the same thing], and participatory democracy...) The man suffered greatly in his life for his beliefs and was genuinely a great human being regardless of one's political views.
Guys sorry for the frankness but i think all those Hoffmans and ets are the simply "fifth columns" and traitors. The US simlply need to silently withdrow from Vietnam without any political noise that the zionists spreaded in its dirty aims and that was the REASON Of political defeat of USA.
The zionists could criticize the everybody, blame the every state ( especially they like to blame the state where they live) , but no one say critic worlds agains the Israel agressional politic and for protection of the its victims.( except the very few jews who had the conscience).
The most character behaviour of them was befor the recent invasion to the Iraq- where were all those Hoffmans when the Zionis-lobby pressured the US president to involve the USA in new war?;)
P.S. again sorry for this....I know you don't like this issue...But somebody have to tell about this..

Cheers.

Rising Sun*
08-09-2007, 10:57 AM
Guys sorry for the frankness but i think all those Hoffmans and ets are the simply "fifth columns" and traitors. The US simlply need to silently withdrow from Vietnam without any political noise that the zionists spreaded in its dirty aims and that was the REASON Of political defeat of USA.
The zionists could criticize the everybody, blame the every state ( especially they like to blame the state where they live) , but no one say critic worlds agains the Israel agressional politic and for protection of the its victims.( except the very few jews who had the conscience).
The most character behaviour of them was befor the recent invasion to the Iraq- where were all those Hoffmans when the Zionis-lobby pressured the US president to involve the USA in new war?;)
P.S. again sorry for this....I know you don't like this issue...But somebody have to tell about this..

Cheers.

I have to tell you about something that isn’t at all well known.

If you examine some very select documents in a little known and carefully guarded section of the American national archives you'll find that the Zionist conspiracy goes far deeper than you think.

In 1960, in probably its only accurate prediction about anything important, the CIA predicted the 1967 Six Day War in Israel, although it thought it would be a Sixty Day War, give or take a week.

Mossad actually got hold of this CIA assessment but, due to the inferior quality of photostat machines at the time, when the copies were received in Tel Aviv a fault in copying made it seem that America's superior intelligence and military assessment was working on a Six Day War.

Tel Aviv duly altered its plans to make it a Six Day War, to fit in with the American support they expected.

However, contrary to Tel Aviv's hopes, the CIA assessment provoked panic in both Democratic and Republican circles as neither wanted America to be put into a position where it had to put its forces onto the ground and water and into the air beside the Israelis.

The predominantly Protestant and Catholic Republican and Democratic voters in that era would not support American boys dying for belligerent and ungrateful Jews in another far away land only a couple of decades after saving them the last time, and putting Americans' access to Arab oil at risk just when they were really starting to enjoy the gasoline guzzling joys of huge cars as they approached the peak of post-war prosperity.

Not to mention the problems which could be expected from the large number of influential and rabidly anti-Semitic Nazi rocket scientists, physicists, and so on who had by then become the darlings of the American political and military/industrial establishments and who had the ears of American military and political leaders.

Yet neither the Democrats or Republicans could afford not to put American forces in beside Israel when the predicted 1967 war occurred, as both were dependent upon the domestic Jewish lobby for their political survival.

After turbulent and lengthy secret meetings held deep in Cheyenne Mountain 1960 - 63, many attended by the President and his military chiefs, both parties agreed that the solution to their mutual problem was to put America into a military position where it could not possibly be expected to divert forces to Israel in 1967.

Vietnam conveniently poked its head up, and the rest is history.

The CIA had in fact been infiltrated by Mossad by the mid-1950's by the Hoffmans and other fifth columnists who were conspiring to bring America into the Zionists' planned 1967 war.

Hoffman's involvement is clear from his attempts to avoid responsibility for his carelessly exultant 1967 polemic "**** the System" which used allegorical language about bleeding America dry to satisfy a Jew’s inexhaustible desires to conceal his, and the Zionists', joy at getting America to come to Israel's aid at, as usual, no cost to the exploitative Jews. http://www.totse.com/en/politics/anarchism/****thesystem172243.html

After being reprimanded by Tel Aviv for this careless action, Hoffman attempted to put the CIA etc off the scent by publishing "More than you ever wanted to know about nuclear waste transports", http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89818259 a none too subtle warning to any nation that chose to resist the Zionists and, as they thought, their powerful American friends who in fact were bogging America down in Vietnam to avoid exactly that nuclear confrontation with the Arabs, most of whom didn't even have bows and arrows and, if they did, didn‘t know which way to point them.

By 1963 Mossad had successfully persuaded the CIA of America's problems when the planned 1967 war occurred and, unintentionally, had encouraged America to get involved in Vietnam to avoid what Mossad wanted, being direct involvement in the Six Day War.

Paradoxically, by unintentionally diverting America from Israel to Vietnam, Mossad also unwittingly enlisted America to support the Zionist leadership’s secret long term alternative plan to reshape Israel to enable it to survive.

The desire to reshape Israel was based on the fact that Israel is a bit of desert in a more or less geometric shape while Vietnam is a lot of fertile land in a rather more rounded shape, reminiscent of the pregnant Jewish earth mother which ensures the survival of the Jews whatever their travails.

Mossad was backing both horses. If America fought beside Israel in the inevitable war in 1967, Israel had to win and the wandering Jews could stop wandering. If America won in Vietnam after expelling the Catholics and Buddhists, then the more fertile and better shaped land would be open to the Jews who could wander over there from Israel.

So, even if it was exactly the opposite of what it was trying to achieve, Mossad persuaded the Democrats and the Republicans that it was in America's interests to commit all its forces to Vietnam, to bleed itself dry under the draft, so that nothing would be left to go to Israel.

America fell for it.

Which is how the Jews were responsible for the American defeat in Vietnam.



Caveat emptor.

Nickdfresh
08-09-2007, 11:04 AM
Guys sorry for the frankness but i think all those Hoffmans and ets are the simply "fifth columns" and traitors.

And why do you think that? Specifically? Especially since they shared your views on US gov't policy missteps...


The US simlply need to silently withdrow from Vietnam without any political noise that the zionists spreaded in its dirty aims and that was the REASON Of political defeat of USA.

Oi vay! WTF does Zionism have to do with Vietnam? Hoffman was anything but a Zionist, and the majority of the anti-War movement was Christian white males that simply did not want to be drafted and sent to Vietnam. Hoffman was a leader of sorts. But he was also a patriot that wanted the best for this country, and he expressed his views with a nihilist sense of humor that I find endearing.

And the "political defeat" of the United States was it's OWN hubris, and a delicate domestic dichotomy of supporting civil rights, ending poverty that had to unfortunately be tied to the hand of militaristic ally fighting communism abroad (or you get called one!:)). It was had to do with supporting a corrupt, unstable, and discredited Saigon regime that faced a political establishment that had effectively existed since the 1920s in the North, in one form or another.


The zionists could criticize the everybody, blame the every state ( especially they like to blame the state where they live)

You need to define "Zionist" to me.


, but no one say critic worlds agains the Israel agressional politic and for protection of the its victims.( except the very few jews who had the conscience).

There certainly is not enough questioning of Israeli policies in the US, this is true. But actually, there is far more dissent and questioning of their policies in Israel proper that there is in the United States actually.

And Abbie Hoffman was exactly a "Jew who had the conscience!"


The most character behaviour of them was befor the recent invasion to the Iraq- where were all those Hoffmans when the Zionis-lobby pressured the US president to involve the USA in new war?;)
P.S. again sorry for this....I know you don't like this issue...But somebody have to tell about this..

Cheers.

You see --now you're getting all convoluted. Iraq? Zionists? They had absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam. Ironically you being up "Zionism" responding to a post I made about a Christian, White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :confused:

And the US was not going to "quietly withdraw" from Indochina. The Congress indeed had to force Nixon too.

Nickdfresh
08-09-2007, 11:15 AM
Hoffman's involvement is clear from his attempts to avoid responsibility for his carelessly exultant 1967 polemic "**** the System" which used allegorical language about bleeding America dry to satisfy a Jew’s inexhaustible desires to conceal his, and the Zionists', joy at getting America to come to Israel's aid at, as usual, no cost to the exploitative Jews. http://www.totse.com/en/politics/ana...tem172243.html

LMFAO! that was quite brilliant! :lol:

Goddamn you Rising Sun! Our Jewish, Zionist plan is out of the bag!:mad:

Chevan, you can disregard my previous post. I was just trying to cover my Jewy tracks...

And of Course, Agent Hoffman also 'screwed the pooch,' because his agitations against Vietnam, and the draft, also caused the end of conscription in the United States despite a feigned outcry from US generals, IN 1973! Thus, he was enabling the Americans, who were using the unpopular War as an excuse to end conscription to, not only avoid involvement in the Arab-Israeli War of the same year, reduce their conventional forces so they would have an excuse to use nuclear weapons in the event they were able to trigger a war with the Soviets. This also provided the Pentagon an excuse to again avoid involvement in our meticulously planned 1973 War! in which Mossad and Shin Bet's intricate plans to make us appear to be initially be losing the War in an Arab surprise attack, by using IDF soldiers wearing Egyptian uniforms to destroying out own (,er, American) tanks (you really think Arabs are smart enough to use fire hoses to melt the impenetrable sand barriers we put up?! I think not!). These plans where designed to yet again finally achieve the aim of ensnaring the Gentile sons of America fight for us perpetually...

Rising Sun*
08-09-2007, 12:29 PM
Goddamn you Rising Sun! Our Jewish, Zionist plan is out of the bag!:mad:

What's this "Our' stuff? :D

The Christian Brothers (none of whom found me attractive enough to root, which might be the basis for me suing them :D) probably weren't real big on Zionists.

Admittedly, the Christian Brothers in the 1950s / early 1960s never said anything to us about Zionists because (a) Marcus bloody Jacobsen was, for reasons which defy understanding and dont reflect well on his Jewish parents, sent to our Catholic school and, because he was Jewish, never had to say the bloody prayers we had to stand up and say about every four seconds to ward off the Devil or maybe Brother Child Shagger and (b) the Brothers were too bloody busy infecting us with their fear of Communists who, we learned, unlike the Nazis put Catholics ahead of Jews on their list for a bullet in the back of the neck, so Marcus bloody Jacobsen wasn't going to be the first cab off the rank, for a change.


And of Course, Agent Hoffman also 'screwed the pooch,'

"Vot? He ****ed a hunt? No ****ing vonder ze government is upset. Zis Hoffman, he should be ashamed of himself. The hunt, vell ..


because his agitations against Vietnam, and the draft, also caused the end of conscription in the United States despite a feigned outcry from US generals, IN 1973! Thus, he was enabling the Americans, who were using the unpopular War as an excuse to end conscription to, not only avoid involvement in the Arab-Israeli War of the same year, reduce their conventional forces so they would have an excuse to use nuclear weapons in the event they were able to trigger a war with the Soviets. This also provided the Pentagon an excuse to again avoid involvement in our meticulously planned 1973 War! in which Mossad and Shin Bet's intricate plans to make us appear to be initially be losing the War in an Arab surprise attack, by using IDF soldiers wearing Egyptian uniforms to destroying out own (,er, American) tanks (you really think Arabs are smart enough to use fire hoses to melt the impenetrable sand barriers we put up?! I think not!).

Actually, the problem might be many steps earlier.

You think Arabs have fire hoses?



These plans where designed to yet again finally achieve the aim of ensnaring the Gentile sons of America fight for us perpetually...

Surely, you mean the Gentle sons of America?

Nickdfresh
08-09-2007, 02:29 PM
On a serious note though, I'd love for Chevan to tell me how the Iraq War is at all "good" for the 'Jewish-Zionist' state of Israel?

Nickdfresh
08-09-2007, 02:32 PM
What's this "Our' stuff? :D

The Christian Brothers (none of whom found me attractive enough to root, which might be the basis for me suing them :D) probably weren't real big on Zionists.

Admittedly, the Christian Brothers in the 1950s / early 1960s never said anything to us about Zionists because (a) Marcus bloody Jacobsen was, for reasons which defy understanding and dont reflect well on his Jewish parents, sent to our Catholic school and, because he was Jewish, never had to say the bloody prayers we had to stand up and say about every four seconds to ward off the Devil or maybe Brother Child Shagger and (b) the Brothers were too bloody busy infecting us with their fear of Communists who, we learned, unlike the Nazis put Catholics ahead of Jews on their list for a bullet in the back of the neck, so Marcus bloody Jacobsen wasn't going to be the first cab off the rank, for a change.



"Vot? He ****ed a hunt? No ****ing vonder ze government is upset. Zis Hoffman, he should be ashamed of himself. The hunt, vell ..



Actually, the problem might be many steps earlier.

You think Arabs have fire hoses?




Surely, you mean the Gentle sons of America?

Actually, I'm Catholic (a nonobservant one) too. But Chevan sometimes thinks that means I'm Jewish and part of the conspiracy...

Don't get him started on how the Mossad took out the Twin Towers to get the Iraq War goin!'

Chevan
08-10-2007, 05:07 AM
I 've guess Nick should fell into a passion;)
Sorry my friend.
No you are wrong - i never thought you are the jews, never.
However i thought you are ...... a little biased.
You are not capable to seen the some of things ( or may be you simply fear to notice it and tell).
I know it quite impossible to criticize the jewish organisation or individual jews without fear to be blaiming as anti-semite, neo-nazy or ets.
This is our payback for that we let them to inspire us the "complex of moral guilt".
May be they right from their position. But as i show the last events - ONLY for their.
And i think this fact should not forbit us to look for them from OUR positions.

Cheers.

Nickdfresh
08-10-2007, 10:51 AM
I 've guess Nick should fell into a passion;)
Sorry my friend.
No you are wrong - i never thought you are the jews, never.
However i thought you are ...... a little biased.

Of course I am 'biased,' as are you. I am an American nationalist.;) Most of us here has some sort of patriotic inclinations. I actually do not consider myself a nationalist, but a patriot. I'll leave the irrational nationalism to US Neo/authoritarian-conservatives, who are growingly discredited thankfully...


You are not capable to seen the some of things ( or may be you simply fear to notice it and tell).
I know it quite impossible to criticize the jewish organisation or individual jews without fear to be blaiming as anti-semite, neo-nazy or ets.
This is our payback for that we let them to inspire us the "complex of moral guilt".
May be they right from their position. But as i show the last events - ONLY for their.
And i think this fact should not forbit us to look for them from OUR positions.

Cheers.

There was a National Public Radio discussion on this subject last spring that I was able to listen too. Those taking part were American liberal Jews and conservative Jews who were spokemen for AIPAC pro-Israeli lobby, and it was quite enlightening. It is true that it is very difficult for US politicians to publicly criticize Israel. But one of the key salient points brought up in this discussion was that there is a very strong Israeli left in their Labour Party that routinely seeks to oppose Likud over their policies, which I view as not only extremist and patently unfair towards Palestinians (who deserve their share of the blame as well, for issues of corruption ion the more moderate Palestinian Authority and for a policy of indefinite terrorist war condoned by HAMAS). These hard-line policies however have actually led to negative consequences for Israel, such as by all accounts the catastrophic invasion of Lebanon. Such actions bad for the Israel state. But they get away with few external political consequences because I agree that the United States enables them and prevents any palpable international condemnation.

In any case, I want this thread to stay on topic. It is not about whether the ethnic make-up of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin in the peace movement belied some Zionist plot, which is completely silly conspiratorial shit that doesn't even make any sense:). It's about the viability of the peace movement and whether those involved were actually the patriots...

If anyone here ever gets a chance, they should view an old PBS series now played early on Saturday mornings in the US called "Vietnam: The 10,000 Day War" presented in 30-min. installments (the original series which aired in the mid-1980s I believe was in two-hour segments).

There are numerous interviews with Vietnam veterans and members of the peace movement while they were about my age, ranging from their early thirties to early fifties for the ex-senior officers, conducted while their memories of the war was still very fresh. Among the who's who of the interviewed was the first overall commander, Gen. Westmorland, novelist Pat O'Brien, and current Virginia Senator Jim Webb (whose son is in Iraq).

One of the quotes from these many interviews that sticks with me is a former senior member of the peace movement whose name I cannot recall (not on the level of Hoffman or Tom Hayden) who said something to the affect: "I'm a nationalist! I was a patriot for protesting against the (Vietnam) War. The war was bad for America, it was horrible on every level. And I was the patriot for demanding an end to it!"

I tend to agree...

Nickdfresh
08-12-2007, 07:00 PM
BTW, Chevan: "Zionism is imperialism." --Abbie Hoffman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57q278MJSWY

Chevan
08-13-2007, 05:21 AM
OK pdf.
[quote=Nickdfresh}
But, it has absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam, the US peace movement, nor Hoffman - who was an American, not an Israeli.
[/quote]
It's obviously Nick you do not understand the sence of Zionism.
Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism).
According this rule the any zionists must support the any actions that could help the Israel.
According to the Naum Goldman ( the president of Jewish congress) "The any jew - is the FIRSTLY jew, and only then he is the American,British, Germans, Russian and ets."
So if you do not see the thin connection between the Hoffman and other - this does mean this is not exsisted.

Chevan
08-13-2007, 05:24 AM
BTW, Chevan: "Zionism is imperialism." --Abbie Hoffman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57q278MJSWY

Well i have a troubles with the understanding of speaking english.
Would you s kind Nick to write what rAbbi exactly said;)

Gen. Sandworm
08-13-2007, 05:40 AM
Well i have a troubles with the understanding of speaking english.
Would you s kind Nick to write what rAbbi exactly said;)

Caller: The establishment of Israel for instance?

Abbie: Ya see people dont see Zionism as Imperialism right off!

So Nicks quote is right but not directly quoted from this clip. Just shorted to make the point.

Chevan
08-13-2007, 05:47 AM
Caller: The establishment of Israel for instance?

Abbie: Ya see people dont see Zionism as Imperialism right off!

So Nicks quote is right but not directly quoted from this clip. Just shorted to make the point.
Thanks Gen.
So what the Hoffam said that Nick has decided he is not Zionists?

Gen. Sandworm
08-13-2007, 05:54 AM
Thanks Gen.
So what the Hoffam said that Nick has decided he is not Zionists?

Not sure if I understand you correctly but Hoffman was anti-imperialist. On this basis, along with what was stated above, it is safe to say that Abbie Hoffman was not a Zionist.

Chevan
08-13-2007, 06:10 AM
Not sure if I understand you correctly but Hoffman was anti-imperialist. On this basis, along with what was stated above, it is safe to say that Abbie Hoffman was not a Zionist.

Well Gen thanks for the care;)
The Hoffman was not as much imperialists as the Ultra-Marxist. Moreover he called for the legalizations of narcotics/drugs.
Besides he was psyhically ill. He treated from the maniacal depression in last period of his life ( the legitime resault of drugs;)
Really he was an anti-imperialist and anti-zionist?
But the Zionism is the supporting of creation of Israel ( according the jewish determination)
So could you find at least ONE his phrase when he deny the creation of Isreal?

Gen. Sandworm
08-13-2007, 06:27 AM
Really he was an anti-imperialist and anti-zionist?
But the Zionism is the supporting of creation of Israel ( according the jewish determination)
So could you find at least ONE his phrase when he deny the creation of Isreal?

Well that may be hard to find. But denying the right for Israel to exist and being an anti-zionist are 2 different things. Israel is a state. Zionism is political movement. For instance you could be for the legalization of drugs yet maybe you dont use drugs.

To get a better sense of what he was for look at my post #15 in this thread. Anti-establishment would be a better word to describe him I think. Of course I can vouch for the man since I didnt know him and he is dead.

Chevan
08-13-2007, 07:11 AM
Well that may be hard to find. But denying the right for Israel to exist and being an anti-zionist are 2 different things. Israel is a state. Zionism is political movement. For instance you could be for the legalization of drugs yet maybe you dont use drugs.

To get a better sense of what he was for look at my post #15 in this thread. Anti-establishment would be a better word to describe him I think. Of course I can vouch for the man since I didnt know him and he is dead.


Well but the final aim of Zionism is the creation of Isreal Gen?
Do you doubt? Read the jewish sites?
So if the israel is already has created - so what the Zionist still do?
They protects and widens its influence over the world.
So INDEED the right existing of the Israel and Zionism are the same things;)
P.S. and only the crazy coudl vote for the lagalization of drugs if he don't use it.

Gen. Sandworm
08-13-2007, 07:27 AM
Well but the final aim of Zionism is the creation of Isreal Gen?
Do you doubt? Read the jewish sites?
So if the israel is already has created - so what the Zionist still do?
They protects and widens its influence over the world.
So INDEED the right existing of the Israel and Zionism are the same things;)
P.S. and only the crazy coudl vote for the lagalization of drugs if he don't use it.

1 You dont have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2 Now there is a somewhat Jewish state I assume they(Zionist) fight to keep it that way and/or expand it. Why there is such an uproar about Israel giving back the land they took to form Palestine and others.
3. Insofar as drugs go.......http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php I bet there is at least ONE person there that hasnt done drugs. ;)

Oki doki enough about Zionism.......start a new thread!

Only things that deal with the peace movement.

Nickdfresh
08-13-2007, 07:41 AM
Well i have a troubles with the understanding of speaking english.
Would you s kind Nick to write what rAbbi exactly said;)


Caller: The establishment of Israel for instance?

Abbie: Ya see people dont see Zionism as Imperialism right off!

So Nicks quote is right but not directly quoted from this clip. Just shorted to make the point.

LOL I hate transcribing...

Nickdfresh
08-13-2007, 08:04 AM
Well Gen thanks for the care;)
The Hoffman was not as much imperialists as the Ultra-Marxist.

No. Far too simplistic a notion to ascribe to Hoffman. He was in fact an advocate of "participatory democracy" - meaning, he advocating decentralizing gov't into very local organs in which all people have a real say. That's the antithesis of communism!


Moreover he called for the legalizations of narcotics/drugs.

So? So have prominent right wing conservatives like William F. Buckley Jr...

The Nixon Administration codified the prohibitions against drugs by classifying them as FDA controlled substances effectively putting all regulations under the executive branch, effectively taking the issue out of congress' hands and completely making all drugs unavailable - even for those that used them under useful, medicinal circumstances (i.e. ecstasy, LSD for psychoanalytic therapies, and marijuana to ease pain of the terminally ill).

He did this largely to undercut the "counterculture," but in doing so, he made US drug laws wholly inflexible and unadaptable and has ultimately made things worse I think by filling prisons full of minor offenders while not dealing with the circumstances that foster addiction...


Besides he was psyhically ill. He treated from the maniacal depression in last period of his life ( the legitime resault of drugs;)

Possibly. But there have been many that used drugs that weren't affected or scared in any significant way.

Also, you're falling into the trap of the stereotype, that is, thinking that everyone was a "hippie" in the 60s. There is a difference between self-indulgent hippies that lacked direction, were merely hedonistic, and virtually apolitical in their world views as they were merely seeking the "ecstatic experience."

Hoffman was a politically conscious Yippee...


Really he was an anti-imperialist and anti-zionist?
But the Zionism is the supporting of creation of Israel ( according the jewish determination)
So could you find at least ONE his phrase when he deny the creation of Isreal?

I think Sandstorm has covered this. What would be the point anyways? Israel was already created. I think advocating what you are saying would imply dissolution of Israel, feeding into the stated goals of genocidal Arab propaganda at the time of "driving the Jews into the sea."

Chevan
08-15-2007, 03:25 AM
No. Far too simplistic a notion to ascribe to Hoffman. He was in fact an advocate of "participatory democracy" - meaning, he advocating decentralizing gov't into very local organs in which all people have a real say. That's the antithesis of communism!
That's not antithesis of communism , that's the anarchy Nick.
In his book "Steal this book,How to survive in the state of police democraty" Hoffman ( BTW resently this was published in Russia in 2002) simply deny the any state and CALLS: get fight with the your state ( by the very interested methods- not pay for the using of the social services and ets.)
The rAbbi Hoffman was a tupical a FIFTH COLUMN leader - who call to do everething agains state where you live. He not just deny the basical principals of the State but also called to make the damage to the state.
I hope you understand that his fiercing critic didn't touch the holy for him- the Israel;)
He has organised the political strikes where perished several American students.( bet not the jews)





Possibly. But there have been many that used drugs that weren't affected or scared in any significant way.

Also, you're falling into the trap of the stereotype, that is, thinking that everyone was a "hippie" in the 60s. There is a difference between self-indulgent hippies that lacked direction, were merely hedonistic, and virtually apolitical in their world views as they were merely seeking the "ecstatic experience."

Hoffman was a politically conscious Yippee...

Yes he was political conscious zionist- Worm who demoralized the society INSIDE.
This is the tupical action of zionist in any state where they TEMPORARY lives.
In the most hard moment- crisys in the Vietnam - the zionists MAKE the political profit on critic of unpopular the war.
The Hoffmens activity is the tupical example when the Zionists PIARed own left lieaders.
At that same time they THEY DID EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO INVOLE the USA in the war in the Far East.( or at least to make the USA the allies).
They were not able to widelly involve USA in 1968 but later when the Zionist positions was stronger they finally reached it in 2003 :)


II think Sandstorm has covered this. What would be the point anyways? Israel was already created. I think advocating what you are saying would imply dissolution of Israel, feeding into the stated goals of genocidal Arab propaganda at the time of "driving the Jews into the sea.""
That;s true Nick in the 1968 when the Hoffman spread his demagogy about the "Zionism is Imperialism" Israel was already created and the main aim of Zionist was to save the Israel. So they was ready to do everething - even to let the the Hoffmas to tell the any bulshit for the American's left- wings peoples.( especially communist stamp about Zionism-Imperialism)
But dId you ever hear JUST one case when the Hoffans critics the REAL ISRAEL actions?
I doubt it.
BTW for you to know - the genocidal Arab propaganda at the time of "driving the Jews into the sea.- has appeared as the resault of henocidal Zionists actions to evict (or kill) the all arabs form Palestina. Do not forget about it;)

Chevan
08-15-2007, 04:35 AM
1 You dont have to be Jewish to be a Zionist

Absolutly agree Gen.
Not every jews is Zionist and Not every Zionist is jews;)
However the MAIN aim ( at least official) of Zionists was to CREAT THE OWN state.
So in this prospect ( althought it hard to think) the any who supported the Israel and its actions -is Zionists:D


2 Now there is a somewhat Jewish state I assume they(Zionist) fight to keep it that way and/or expand it. Why there is such an uproar about Israel giving back the land they took to form Palestine and others.

This was a great political show to "give back the land" as th peacefull act of Isreal.
Indeed the reasons were very progmatic:It was hard to guard those territories from the palestinians attacks. This was decision to cutt off the military expenses Gen.
May be you dodn't know but the Isreal is the STATE-BANKRUPT.
There is no anything that could compensate the enourmous expenses for this stae.
The existing of this state is only possible due to the Great Finantial and Military support of USA.All this support for the American state money - i.e. for the lev's.
Besided there a lot of different Zionists fonds- that re-sended the giant summ of money to the Israel. I don't know about USA , but know for the sure during the 1990-yy the Russian zionists-oligarhs sended about 2 billions dollars per year to the Israel.
This is ENOURMOUS summ for the 6 million state.
Plus the so called Industry of Holocaus - the compansation , the lion part of which are used by the Zionist world organisations.
If to assume all the possible sources the ISrael gets about 5-8 billions of dollars per years form OUTSIDE.
This is roughtly 1000 of dollars for EACH man in state.

So as you could to see the Isreal is the Deadline of Zionism- How could you DREAM about the state that is unable to develops themself.
This situation could force us to assume that INDEED the creation of Israel is not the MAIN REAL aim of the pragmatic Zionists. Coz as we already saw althought Israel already exists - ONLY TOO insignificant part of the WORL jews have emigrated to there.Mostly the poorest part.
This is no surprising - somebody need to MAKE monay for the Israel in outdoor;)

Oki doki enough about Zionism.......start a new thread!

And are you sure that this there would not be closed as it was befor;)

pdf27
08-15-2007, 05:12 AM
BTW for you to know - the genocidal Arab propaganda at the time of "driving the Jews into the sea.- has appeared as the resault of henocidal Zionists actions to evict (or kill) the all arabs form Palestina. Do not forget about it;)
Ummm... given that at least some early examples of it were happening when Palestine was part of the British League of Nations mandate in the 1930s, I'd be a little cautious about making statements like that. While groups like the Irgun and the Stern Gang were certainly carrying out terrorist attacks against the Palestinians prior to the formation of the state of Israel, that can hardly be described as "genocidal" in scale or an attempt to evict/kill all the Arabs in the area. And certainly as soon as the state of Israel was formed in 1948 all the surrounding Arab states declared war with the avowed intention of destroying the state of Israel.


And are you sure that this there would not be closed as it was before?
Unlikely to be yet, but I'm keeping a close eye on it. Should it deteriorate from the open debate it is still (just) in to crude anti-semitism it'll be locked immediately.

Chevan
08-15-2007, 05:46 AM
Ummm... given that at least some early examples of it were happening when Palestine was part of the British League of Nations mandate in the 1930s, I'd be a little cautious about making statements like that.

True he palestim was part of British impare however does it helped the arabs after the Jews declared the Israel?


While groups like the Irgun and the Stern Gang were certainly carrying out terrorist attacks against the Palestinians prior to the formation of the state of Israel, that can hardly be described as "genocidal" in scale or an attempt to evict/kill all the Arabs in the area. And certainly as soon as the state of Israel was formed in 1948 all the surrounding Arab states declared war with the avowed intention of destroying the state of Israel.

Not only the groups of attack in 1948 like the massacre in Dair Yasine villiage where were killed 252 peoples ( including the woman and children) byt the ISrael sperial units under command of Menashem Begi.
But also and unfair mass murder of refugees in camps of Lebanon in 1982
http://www.voskres.ru/taina/images/duke/005.jpg
Besides the domestic politic of apparteid in Israel toward the non-jews is also very EXACTLY characterized this stae.And the inner sence of Zionism.
So i/m really doubt that Israel is INNOCENT STRONGHOLD OF DEMOCRATY as try to present the modern Zionists;)


Unlikely to be yet, but I'm keeping a close eye on it. Should it deteriorate from the open debate it is still (just) in to crude anti-semitism it'll be locked immediately.
The problam with that is the Who ( and how) will determined the anti-semitism?
ITupicaly is the any critic of jew ( or jewish ) organisations from the non-jews is definitely determined as anti-semitism
I hope you will not be biased on this theme;)?

pdf27
08-15-2007, 06:43 AM
Not only the groups of attack in 1948 like the massacre in Dair Yasine villiage where were killed 252 peoples ( including the woman and children) byt the ISrael sperial units under command of Menashem Begi.
Not exactly "Israeli Special Units" - it was carried out by the Irgun and the Stern Gang, the two terrorist organisations I mentioned previously. I don't think Menachim Begin was actually there, although he certainly bears command responsibility - he was head of the Irgun at the time.
There was some contribution by the closest thing around at the time to a regular Israeli army (the armed wing of the Haganah) in the attack on the village, but there have apparently never been any claims made against them of war crimes associated with the attack. Not everyone killed was massacred - there was something of a war on and most of the villagers were armed. It is clear that after the attack a number of villagers were murdered, but also that this was done by the Irgun and Stern Gang.

Incidentally (and somewhat irrelevantly), 252 appears to have been a propaganda figure for the purposes of frightening the Palestinian population out of their homes - the true figure seems to be around 100.


So i/m really doubt that Israel is INNOCENT STRONGHOLD OF DEMOCRATY as try to present the modern Zionists;)
There is certainly a great deal of Gerrymandering, etc. going on. However, most of the other states in the region are a great deal worse.


The problam with that is the Who ( and how) will determined the anti-semitism?
I will, in conjunction with the other mods.


Tupicaly is the any critic of jew ( or jewish ) organisations from the non-jews is definitely determined as anti-semitism
I hope you will not be biased on this theme;)?
Note that you have been criticising them for some time and this thread has stayed open. Should I or the other mods become convinced that the reason for this criticism is a dislike or hatred of Jews in general rather than the policies of Israel in particular, this thread will be locked and other action may be taken as felt by the mods to be appropriate.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2007, 07:02 AM
How about splitting the Zionist Israel stuff from this thread?

pdf27
08-15-2007, 07:15 AM
Done.

Chevan
08-15-2007, 07:59 AM
Done.

Why did you call this thread as the Giant Zeonist Conspirasy?
And if you has bagan the new thread from MY nickname - why did not you consults with me?
:twisted:

pdf27
08-15-2007, 08:25 AM
It's called "Giant Zionist Conspiracy" because that seems to me to accurately describe the contents of the thread.
It begins with your post because you were the first poster to take it off topic and start talking about Zionism - everyone else was talking about the Vietnam war.

If you have any issues with my decisions in either of the above, take it up with General Sandworm or Dani.

Chevan
08-15-2007, 08:35 AM
It's called "Giant Zionist Conspiracy" because that seems to me to accurately describe the contents of the thread.

And in my mind this wrong stopid mane for this thread.
You clearly know - there is no any conspirasy issues - all the material that we have discused in here WERE TAKEN form the official non-extremists sites including the americans.
We discussed here the things that have already heppend


It begins with your post because you were the first poster to take it off topic and start talking about Zionism - everyone else was talking about the Vietnam war.
Not evryone else. We dicussed also the Liberty issue and the political movenments in the USA in the times - not ONLY the vietnam war especialy in lasts posts.
Besides the things are tightly related - how could you determine that the Zionism did not touch the Vietnam war problems?


Cheers.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2007, 08:53 AM
Why did you call this thread as the Giant Zeonist Conspirasy?

Because Zionists are giants? :D



http://chromatism.net/current/images/bahacartoon.jpg

pdf27
08-15-2007, 11:01 AM
And in my mind this wrong stopid mane for this thread.

See my previous comment...


If you have any issues with my decisions in either of the above, take it up with General Sandworm or Dani.