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Chevan
08-02-2007, 03:01 AM
Hello folks.
I hope you know that the best allies ace was the Ivan Kozhedub (62 vic).
However did you ever hear that the best ace-woman who boldly fought together the man - was the soviet girls from the special 296 figher regiment.
The Lidia Litviajk was the most famouse soviet woman-ace
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/litvak.html
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak4.jpg
This buatifull girl shot down the 14 (!!)Germans aircrafts , at least 3 of them were the fighers.Not bad resault for the girl
He began his combat way from the september 0f 1942.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak2.jpg
His first air victory was under Stalingrad in 13 sep. Lilia shoted down the for the single battle the U-88 and Bf-109.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak.jpg
The Lilia together with her friends - female fighters of 296 regiment.

Two victories in one battle- this was a great archivement even for the men.
Later the victims of Lilia were also two of FW-190 in winter of 1943. But the mostly suffered were the U-88.
Lilia Litwak did not come back from the combat mission in 1 aug of 1943. Later her remains were found in near the villiage Marinovka.In her last battle she has meet the large group of German fighter , her damaged Jak-1 fall down in the German territory.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvyk3.gif
Her last fighter Jak-1b number 23.
For her relatively short carier since sep1942 -until 1 aug 1943 she destroed the 14 aircrafts - bombers and fighters. This is amazing resault EVEN FOR THE ANY ace.

How could we lose the war if so buatifull girls died instead of mens in front?

SS-Master
08-02-2007, 09:04 AM
(edited by Panzerknacker)

Think twice before posting the next time

Rising Sun*
08-02-2007, 09:45 AM
Pretty idiotic to let women fight in the army just like men.
Typical communistic blunder.
If I would see a women die in war, or even worse, if I would kill a women in war I would seriously think about shooting myself in the head.

Why?

A round fired by a woman is going to kill you just as dead as one fired by a man.

I remember having a similar debate with anti-war friends during the Vietnam war. What would you do if a ten year old VC kid was pointing a gun at you or about to throw a grenade at you? It's a no brainer. I want to live. The kid dies. Sorry. (The correct anti-war answer was: I die a noble death at the hands of an innocent ten year old child, who just happens to be armed and trying to kill me. Yeah. Right.)

I don't think any English speaking Allies used women as fighter or bomber pilots, although they used them as ferry pilots for fighters and bombers and transport aircraft.

As for being a communistic blunder, I think the commie sheilas came out squarely on top in this case.

America had a hard enough time admitting that negroes could fly planes and had courage like white men, never mind women doing it http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/

George Eller
08-02-2007, 10:15 AM
Hello folks.
I hope you know that the best allies ace was the Ivan Kozhedub (62 vic).
However did you ever hear that the best ace-woman who boldly fought together the man - was the soviet girls from the special 296 figher regiment.
The Lidia Litviajk was the most famouse soviet woman-ace
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/litvak.html
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak4.jpg
This buatifull girl shot down the 14 (!!)Germans aircrafts , at least 3 of them were the fighers.Not bad resault for the girl
He began his combat way from the september 0f 1942.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak2.jpg
His first air victory was under Stalingrad in 13 sep. Lilia shoted down the for the single battle the U-88 and Bf-109.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak.jpg
The Lilia together with her friends - female fighters of 296 regiment.

Two victories in one battle- this was a great archivement even for the men.
Later the victims of Lilia were also two of FW-190 in winter of 1943. But the mostly suffered were the U-88.
Lilia Litwak did not come back from the combat mission in 1 aug of 1943. Later her remains were found in near the villiage Marinovka.In her last battle she has meet the large group of German fighter , her damaged Jak-1 fall down in the German territory.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvyk3.gif
Her last fighter Jak-1b number 23.
For her relatively short carier since sep1942 -until 1 aug 1943 she destroed the 14 aircrafts - bombers and fighters. This is amazing resault EVEN FOR THE ANY ace.

How could we lose the war if so buatifull girls died instead of mens in front?

-

Chevan,

The "White Rose" of Stalingrad.

I've read about her before. Very touching story.

The White Rose of Stalingrad 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFj_aHDLCEI

White Rose of Stalingrad 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFXd7JegBo

SEE ALSO:

Lydia Litvyak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak

Lilya Litvak - The "White Rose" of Stalingrad
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/litvak/litvak.htm

W.W.II Aces: Lilya Litvak
Lilya Litvak, The White Rose of Stalingrad
http://www.musketeers.org/Lilya.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1656761/posts

http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/russianpart/ruslitvyak.html

http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/litvyak.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/bustersbattery/militrivia/MILITRIVIA53.html

-

SS-Master
08-02-2007, 12:10 PM
Why?

A round fired by a woman is going to kill you just as dead as one fired by a man.

I remember having a similar debate with anti-war friends during the Vietnam war. What would you do if a ten year old VC kid was pointing a gun at you or about to throw a grenade at you? It's a no brainer. I want to live. The kid dies. Sorry. (The correct anti-war answer was: I die a noble death at the hands of an innocent ten year old child, who just happens to be armed and trying to kill me. Yeah. Right.)
I'd shoot him in the legs and take him as a prisoner of war.

alephh
08-02-2007, 02:24 PM
I think Marina Raskova opened a lot doors for female pilots in Soviet Union.


A round fired by a woman is going to kill you just as dead as one fired by a man.

Could not agree more.

If you take a bullet, it's pretty irrelevant if it's shot by child, woman, man - or if it's friendly fire.


_

Rising Sun*
08-02-2007, 08:00 PM
I'd shoot him in the legs and take him as a prisoner of war.

If you think you're doing the kid a favour, you'd better have quick access to fully equipped field, or preferably base, hospital that has space to treat an enemy combatant immediately.

If kids are hit in the thigh with a military round, there's a good chance they'll die from a severed femoral artery, or just from the massive shock. Even if kids survive the wound, there's a fair chance they'll have the leg amputated if the femur is hit.

A military round hitting the femur is a very serious injury. A lot of adults in WWI with shattered femurs were classified in triage as beyond saving and left to die. The Allied mortality rate in WWI from femur wounds was as high as 80% in the first half of the war until improved techniques reduced it.

Panzerknacker
08-02-2007, 08:07 PM
Pretty idiotic to let women fight in the army just like men.
Typical communistic blunder.
..bla...bla...bla....


No, no, no , you are too new to come here with that attitude.

Take some pills and relax, any messages load of agressive crap like this in the future and you get some infraction points.

bwing55543
08-02-2007, 08:24 PM
Why?

A round fired by a woman is going to kill you just as dead as one fired by a man.

I remember having a similar debate with anti-war friends during the Vietnam war. What would you do if a ten year old VC kid was pointing a gun at you or about to throw a grenade at you? It's a no brainer. I want to live. The kid dies. Sorry. (The correct anti-war answer was: I die a noble death at the hands of an innocent ten year old child, who just happens to be armed and trying to kill me. Yeah. Right.)

[/url]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I know the Soviets had many women in the Red Army.

For example, Major Lyudmila Pavlichenko, a Soviet sharpshooter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
According to the wiki article, she had 309 kills from 1941 to 1943. There were about 2000 female snipers in the Red Army, out of which only about 500 survived to the end.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 12:37 AM
Pretty idiotic to let women fight in the army just like men.
Typical communistic blunder.

The communist ( or more correctly the tupical nazy blunder) is in your head, SS-Chicken.
Did you ever heared about Army of Israel where the girls together with mans get the military training - and they are very proud of this.Every israel gerl feels its duty to serve for the defence of its state in critical moment.
So tell them - this is the communist blunder , clever boy.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 02:37 AM
-

Chevan,

The "White Rose" of Stalingrad.

I've read about her before. Very touching story.

The White Rose of Stalingrad 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFj_aHDLCEI

White Rose of Stalingrad 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFXd7JegBo

SEE ALSO:

Lydia Litvyak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak

Lilya Litvak - The "White Rose" of Stalingrad
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/litvak/litvak.htm

W.W.II Aces: Lilya Litvak
Lilya Litvak, The White Rose of Stalingrad
http://www.musketeers.org/Lilya.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1656761/posts

http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/russianpart/ruslitvyak.html

http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/litvyak.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/bustersbattery/militrivia/MILITRIVIA53.html

-

Oh Thank you very much George.
You was always able to find the a lot of material;)
Yes the "white rose of Stalingar" - the Lidia Litvak is pretti much look like the white rose.
Se was a blond, 21 years (in moment of death) - this youg bestia could make crazy any man.
She one of the most buatifull girl in her regiment.

The story of her love with the Alexej Solomatin - is also a quite amazing and tragical.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/d/d9/Solomatin_01.jpg/200px-Solomatin_01.jpg
Her husband Hero of the Soviet Union Aleksey Solomatin. ( 17 victories personal, 22 in group) 73 guard fighter regiment.
When in the beginning of 1943 the Lilia has arrived to the regiment , she was directed by the Solomatin as slave. They both made a lot of missions, bacame the lovers and soon they had a marriage ( in front).
But their happines were too short. In 21 may of 1943 Aleksej Solomatin were shoted in mission, he could reach of airgield and in the eyes of all of regiment and Lilia he perished crush-landing to death.
The Lilij very suffered for him and was physically and mentally worn out.
She survived only 3 mounth after his death.
BTW her resault - 14 victories for ONE year was very high even among all of allies aces .
For instance the Aleksandr Pokrishkin ( the second soviet ace) fought 4 years and shoted 59 aircrafts- i.e. about 15 per year.
Besides Lilia fought at the extremally hard period of 1942-43 when the Luftwaffe still had the superiority in the Eastern front.

Cheers.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 02:45 AM
Couldn't have put it better myself.

I know the Soviets had many women in the Red Army.

For example, Major Lyudmila Pavlichenko, a Soviet sharpshooter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
According to the wiki article, she had 309 kills from 1941 to 1943. There were about 2000 female snipers in the Red Army, out of which only about 500 survived to the end.


That's true bwing, but if you want to disscuss the woman-snipers of WW2 open the new thread please.
This is a too GREAT issure for this female-ace thread;)

Cheers.

Egorka
08-03-2007, 03:18 AM
Pretty idiotic to let women fight in the army just like men.
Typical communistic blunder.
If I would see a women die in war, or even worse, if I would kill a women in war I would seriously think about shooting myself in the head.

communistic blunder?



Women in the Danish defence service (in Danish from the Danish defence ministry homepage) (http://forsvaret.dk/FKO/Om+Forsvaret/Medarbejdere/KvinderiForsvaret/)

http://forsvaret.dk/NR/rdonlyres/A6190147-59A0-47B2-A105-69E1ED641531/259/hrn_kvinde_low1.jpg

...

Women as fighter soldiers

In the period of 1981 - 1987 the Defence ministry conducted reforms in different units of all 3 defence branches. And from the middle of 1988 it became possible for women to assume possitions in the millitary units fit for active fight. It was first came practicaly true for women to became fighter pilots in 1992.

In 1993 women got opportunity to become contract soldiers in the Danish International Brigade (DIB). And in April 1998 it became possible for women to become voluntier conscripts.This all formed the equality between men and women in the Danish defence service.

Today there is app. 900 women in the danish defence forces. It is about 5% of all the profecional soldiers in Denmark.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 04:16 AM
.
But if you want to make this a dictature just like The United States of America, do what you want.

Well guy it seems you are too bold for this forum;)


You tell me Russian hero why there were women in the Russian army.

Guess yourself, although from three attempts;)


Was it because they are battle hardened, strong and very agressive? NO.
Why was it then? Because in communistic countries everybody was allowed to fight and die next to their husband.

Wrong.
You obviously know nothing about "communists countries'
The all girls who went to the front were VOLUNTARIES.They want to fight , to have revenge , and they were ready for die.
But i'm doubt you could ever understand it .


And please don't call me SS-Chicken again.
OK i will call you SS-fan. Is so better?;)

SS-Master
08-03-2007, 04:19 AM
You obviously know nothing about "communists countries'
The all girls who went to the front were VOLUNTARIES.They want to fight , to have revenge , and they were ready for die.
But i'm doubt you could ever understand it .
What exactly did I said then?


OK i will call you SS-fan. Is so better?;)
No, you call me SS-Master, Master or Mister Norden.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 04:46 AM
No, you call me SS-Master, Master or Mister Norden.

May be i should call you as High-race Man?;)Or Mister Master-race.Or simply Furher.
What do you prefer?

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 04:53 AM
OK i will call you SS-fan. Is so better?;)

Well, me old Russian mate, you might be on the money there.

SS Thingy has established he's hostile to the American dictatorship and the Soviets, so there's not a lot of choices left, are there? ;)

This should turn out to be interesting. A bit like Albert Speer, but without the knowledge and intelligence.;)

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 04:57 AM
No, you call me SS-Master, Master or Mister Norden.

You're named after a WWII bombsight developed by the American dictature?

Something must have made a big impact to cause that.

Egorka
08-03-2007, 05:24 AM
No, you call me SS-Master, Master or Mister Norden.

SS-Master, are you from Norway?

http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00084/modul_a_84830a.jpghttp://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00088/JenteriForsvaret_846_88952a.jpg

http://www.mil.no/fakta/start/menneskene/kvinner/

Gen. Sandworm
08-03-2007, 05:51 AM
SS-Master, are you from Norway?


Nope..........lets see if he wants to say where!?!?

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 06:29 AM
SS-Master's photo signature is interesting.

It's a tribute to the WWII German army.

Check out the places on the bottom line, which is on odd selection.

They include 'Atlantic'. This would be what? The barges that never left port in Sea Lion?

Also included is 'Berlin'. Yep, that'd be the Heer's finest moment, losing the national capital.

If only they'd had some of those Russian sheilas in the Luftwaffe, it might never have happened. Nonetheless, one of the last German flights into and out of Berlin was a gutsy effort by a German woman, Hanna Reitsch.


On April 25, 1945, Greim told Reitsch she must fly with him to Berlin for a meeting with Hitler. As a result of a proposal by Göring to take over leadership of the country, Hitler had ordered Göring arrested, and he intended to appoint Greim the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe.

The last leg of their trip to the Führerbunker in devastated Berlin was made in a little Fieseler Fi-156C Storch (stork), with Greim at the controls and Reitsch crouched behind him. Flying through a hail of Soviet anti-aircraft fire, the plane was hit in the engine and fuel tank. An armor-piercing bullet smashed Greim's right foot, and he passed out. Reitsch managed to successfully land the Fieseler on the boulevard before the Brandenburg Gate, and they both made it to Hitler's bunker, where they stayed for two days. Ordered by Hitler to flee Berlin in the final hours of the Russian assault on the city, Greim and Reitsch escaped in an aircraft hidden near the bunker.
http://www.historynet.com/air_sea/flight_technology/3038776.html?showAll=y&c=y

Dani
08-03-2007, 06:49 AM
Nope..........lets see if he wants to say where!?!?

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=106102#post106102

So, should be this:


Belgium: About 3,120 women make up 7.18 percent of the Belgian armed forces. In February, for the first time, nine women began serving on a minehunter, thereby making up 19 percent of the vessel's crew.
From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41587


Pretty idiotic to let women fight in the army just like men.
Typical communistic blunder.
If I would see a women die in war, or even worse, if I would kill a women in war I would seriously think about shooting myself in the head

So in your twisted view either Belgium is a communist country or the Belgium military leaders are morons.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 06:59 AM
So in your twisted view either Belgium is a communist country or the Belgium military leaders are morons.

Might it be that the only moron in the Belgian military is one member of the 1st battalion parachutists Belgian army?

Does such a unit exist?

Dani
08-03-2007, 07:03 AM
Cool down RS.

Egorka
08-03-2007, 07:20 AM
To the SS-Master's defence I should say that he is not the only person who has oppinion about women in RKKA in WW2. Like it was only the sick communist Stalin's regim that whould send women to war.
I saw similar messages before several times.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 07:26 AM
To the SS-Master's defence I should say that he is not the only person who has oppinion about women in RKKA in WW2. Like it was only the sick communist Stalin's regim that whould send women to war.
I saw similar messages before several times.

All nations sent women to war.

Most didn't send them in combatant roles in regular forces, but they were wounded and died nonetheless in war areas and on their way to and from them.

Women were much more likley to be combatants or in operational roles in irregular forces.

Dani
08-03-2007, 07:39 AM
I honor whoever I want.
Besides that, I didn't make that sig, one of my mates on Stormfront.org made it.


I have only one question. You are a registered user of that one?

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 07:43 AM
Cool down RS.

I'd say my temperature was just about right, in view of this revelation at Post # 28 which confirms what I saw in SS-Master's posts and why I oppose him and everything he represents.


Besides that, I didn't make that sig, one of my mates on Stormfront.org made it.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

Also this in the same post


You and all of you are going to listen to me very carefully.
In our Belgian army I am in one of the greatest units: Paratroopers.
In my Belgian country people have respect for us because we protect them for attacks of lunatics.
In our Belgian army there are alot of women but guess what, we don't send them in war to let them die.
I also don't really care what you guys think of me.
There are other forums to make friends, I registered myself here to show some of you the real German view and not only the sloppy American and Russian opinions.

A Belgian showing us the real German view?

I marked this bloke as a Nazi troll from the start.

He should be named SS Master Baiter. Say it fast and you'll understand him.

Egorka
08-03-2007, 07:47 AM
You and all of you are going to listen to me very carefully.
Neahhh! I am not going to!


There are other forums to make friends, I registered myself here to show some of you the real German view and not only the sloppy American and Russian opinions.
REALLY??? Ok, show us REALL GERMAN VIEW. Interesting.

Dani
08-03-2007, 07:48 AM
Tell me when you're grown up Rising Sunshine and we'll talk again.

I'm still waiting an answer from you.

SS-Master
08-03-2007, 07:51 AM
No I am not a member of Stormfront.
I don't share the most of those member's opinion.
They're a bit over the top.

Dani
08-03-2007, 07:55 AM
Besides that, I didn't make that sig, one of my mates on Stormfront.org made it.


There are other forums to make friends, I registered myself here to show some of you the real German view and not only the sloppy American and Russian opinions.

My bold. So. I don't buy it.


I don't share the most of those member's opinion.
They're a bit over the top.

I don't share at all.

Your future here is in doubt.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 07:56 AM
Well guys let me express also that SS-sir could mean as a "communist blunder";)
Actually the woman complected units in the Red Army was not a great issue. It was a forced mean after the catastrofic loses of Red Army in the 1941.
Already in beginning of the 1942 the soviet command feels "shortage of troops", especially aviation. The last reserve of Siberian troops that were taken from the Far East ( those troops guarded the bother from Japanes Kvantung Army) was spended in the winter battles near Moscow.
In this situation In mid of 1942 the special order of Stavka declared the creation of special air -units VOLUNTARY complected by the woman.
Thus appeared the famouse the "Night witches" units- where the gurls on the primitive biplans U-2 dropped the bombs by the nights.
Also this order stated the creation the Fighers FEMALE regiment (it seems it was 585 regiment but i could be mistaken here).
THIS WAS UNIQUE combat troops in the WORLD that was fully complected by the female personall ( except the mechanic-engeneering personal).
Exactly in this regiment our heroine Lilia Litvak has bagin her fighter carier.

So athought the Creation of the female-fighter units was forced mean of Soviet command, nevertheless those brave girls clearly PROVED -they could fought togerther with mans, instead of mans and better then mans;)
They absolutly voluntary come to the fight - for some of them it was a much better way to DIE IN BATTLE then die from famine in Leningrad or be killed by germans bombs.

P.S. The western feminists - who try all its life to prove that the woman could be so succesfull in the man's work- should simply learn the history. ALREADY in WW2 our girls clearly proved it.

Dani
08-03-2007, 08:01 AM
Wanna know something?
I'm no nazi at all.
I've never been in the army.
You wanna know what I do for work? I guess not but I'll tell you anyway.
I work in an home for old people man, I also make powerpoints for children (for free) I'm sick and tired of listening to old people's war crap, I met 3 old nazis on my f*cking work. I changed their f*cking nappies for f*ck sake.
I'm not a bad person, I just need to let it all out sometimes.
I leave here now, I still need to make a ppt presentation about puppies haha.
You'll prolly wont see me again.

I am forced to ban you for trolling.
I'll not miss you.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 08:06 AM
I met 3 old nazis on my f*cking work. I changed their f*cking nappies for f*ck sake.

I knew you got Nazi shit from somewhere.

I've never seen anyone melt down on a military forum before.

It's not a pleasant spectacle.

You'd be a lot better off ringing a helpline for your problems.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 08:06 AM
Way old-nazy service boy will introduse us the REAL GERMNAS views.
How is it interesting;)
So tell us pleas what those old nazy think about WW2- do they suffer that the Germany losed the war?

Dani
08-03-2007, 08:07 AM
Well guys let me express also that SS-sir could mean as a "communist blunder";)
Actually the woman complected units in the Red Army was not a great issue. It was a forced mean after the catastrofic loses of Red Army in the 1941.
Already in beginning of the 1942 the soviet command feels "shortage of troops", especially aviation. The last reserve of Siberian troops that were taken from the Far East ( those troops guarded the bother from Japanes Kvantung Army) was spended in the winter battles near Moscow.
In this situation In mid of 1942 the special order of Stavka declared the creation of special air -units VOLUNTARY complected by the woman.
Thus appeared the famouse the "Night witches" units- where the gurls on the primitive biplans U-2 dropped the bombs by the nights.
Also this order stated the creation the Fighers FEMALE regiment (it seems it was 585 regiment but i could be mistaken here).
THIS WAS UNIQUE combat troops in the WORLD that was fully complected by the female personall ( except the mechanic-engeneering personal).
Exactly in this regiment our heroine Lilia Litvak has bagin her fighter carier.

So athought the Creation of the female-fighter units was forced mean of Soviet command, nevertheless those brave girls clearly PROVED -they could fought togerther with mans, instead of mans and better then mans;)
They absolutly voluntary come to the fight - for some of them it was a much better way to DIE IN BATTLE then die from famine in Leningrad or be killed by germans bombs.

P.S. The western feminists - who try all its life to prove that the woman could be so succesfull in the man's work- should simply learn the history. ALREADY in WW2 our girls clearly proved it.

Thanks Chevan for keeping this thread on topic.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 08:07 AM
And now, ladies and gentlemen, we go back to Chevan and his lady pilot, and related topics.

Panzerknacker
08-03-2007, 08:29 AM
I think is idle to name "the best woman fighter pilot" since the former USSR was the only to actually use women in combat units, is funny the the germnas with his historical shortage of pilots begining in 1943-44 dint use females, I guess still was a quote of machismo despite the nacional socialist views, the place of the woman was in home.

Refuelling.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5476/dibujoil9.jpg

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 09:01 AM
I think is idle to name "the best woman fighter pilot" since the former USSR was the only to actually use women in combat units, is funny the the germnas with his historical shortage of pilots begining in 1943-44 dint use females, I guess still was a quote of machismo despite the nacional socialist views, the place of the woman was in home.


From a purely practical viewpoint, there are some things that women can do as well as men that are wrongly regarded as exclusively male preserves.

Anything that involves operating machinery that equalises male and female power should be available to women.

Flying a plane is one thing there's no reason women can't do as well as men. So is driving a tank or a truck.

Infantry warfare isn't so good because women aren't up to it, as demonstrated by lowered fitness, endurance, and load carrying standards when women are run on the same courses as men.

Aggression isn't exclusively a male preserve, either.

Sure, most women lack the killer instinct, but so do a lot of blokes who get weeded out in training. It's just that a much higher proportion of blokes have the right stuff than women, but there's plenty of women who have the same stuff.

If you wanted to create a really fearsome female unit, grab a bunch of fatarsed overalled radical lesbian feminists, train them to use some machine that equalises them with men, and point them at the blokes.

In WWII, women on the non-Soviet Allied side performed a range of duties http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwtwo/women_at_war_02.shtml

Australian women in WWII show they're just as good as men, with their impeccable drill. :D

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/female/awas-women-rifle-practice.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-03-2007, 09:09 AM
If you wanted to create a really fearsome female unit, grab a bunch of fatarsed overalled radical lesbian feminists, train them to use some machine that equalises them with men, and point them at the blokes.

:D :shock:, well, the lesbians hate men aniway, I dont think they have troubles killing some.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 09:21 AM
:D :shock:, well, the lesbians hate men aniway, I dont think they have troubles killing some.

Most lesbians I know don't hate men.

Nor are they killers.

But the radical lesbian man-hating crew would definitely be worthwhile training up for war.

Or just give them a garden fork and an axe with permission to kill blokes, preferably the enemy, and they'd be off like a rat up a drainpipe.

Except we'd have to kill them all at the end of the war, because you couldn't release them back into normal society. :D

Digger
08-03-2007, 09:43 AM
Excellent thread Chevan, but unfortunately derailed by a nutter. I don't know if any of you guys checked that ratbag organization he was going on about?
113,000 members-that's frightening.

Regards digger

bwing55543
08-03-2007, 09:44 AM
I don't think the Soviets were the only ones to send women into combat. I remember seeing photographs of women in the USMC fighting in the Pacific.

Again, you can go to the thread "Ladies of WWII".

Panzerknacker
08-03-2007, 10:23 AM
Excellent thread Chevan, but unfortunately derailed by a nutter.


The nutter is history no worry about those they have no future or present here.



I don't think the Soviets were the only ones to send women into combat


They were, at list in the Air Forces, germany use women for the Volkssturm formations.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 10:27 AM
I don't know if any of you guys checked that ratbag organization he was going on about?
113,000 members-that's frightening.


Nah!

113,000 members out of 6.5 billion people on the planet?

It's positive that everyone on this forum thought SS Thingy was an obnoxious tool.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 10:32 AM
I don't think the Soviets were the only ones to send women into combat. I remember seeing photographs of women in the USMC fighting in the Pacific.

Do you have any more info on women in the USMC fighting in the Pacific?

Chevan
08-03-2007, 10:33 AM
Thanks for all you guys for understanding and support.

I think is idle to name "the best woman fighter pilot" since the former USSR was the only to actually use women in combat units, is funny the the germnas with his historical shortage of pilots begining in 1943-44 dint use females, I guess still was a quote of machismo despite the nacional socialist views, the place of the woman was in home.


True PZ the National socialists ideology determined the woman place is in the home to birth ti children.
One of the most famouse propogandic "Ideal germans family" was the family of Goebbels with 5 children ( or 6?).
The Nazy propoganda trumpet Goebbels famaly as the exmple for all the Germans.
Nazy also supported the early marriages - it was absolutly normal the marriage of 16 years tenagers;)
However there were the one bright exception if Germany - famouse woman-fanatic Hanna Raich ( that the Rising Sun told about befor).
She was REALLY crasy even in the male standards;)
She was obligated to form the special unit of Germans kamikadze in the last months of the war.Hopefully this units has never been created coz as it said itler ( the Japanes kamikadse is not the Germans stile of thinking).


P.S. Althoug the NAzy was too ' noble ' not to send Germans woman to the front - they was OK to slaughter the millions of innocent womans and children accorging race principles in the East;)

P.S. Guys please follow the topic of thread.

Chevan
08-03-2007, 10:44 AM
Do you have any more info on women in the USMC fighting in the Pacific?

Hay RS and what about Jacqueline Cochran's WASP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Cochran
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/S-016.jpg/493px-S-016.jpg
Following America's entry into the War, in 1942 she was made director of women's flight training for the United States.[4] As head of the Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) she supervised the training of more than 1000 women pilots. For her war efforts, she received the Distinguished Service Medal[5][6] and the Distinguished Flying Cross.


So USA also prepeared about 1000 of female pilots in the 1942;)
Was it communist blunder too?

Do you have any infor about military actions of WASP pilots?

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 10:45 AM
One of the most famouse propogandic "Ideal germans family" was the family of Goebbels with 5 children ( or 6?).
The Nazy propoganda trumpet Goebbels famaly as the exmple for all the Germans.

A great family man.

Here's what he did to 5 of his 6 his kids at the end.

They're not playing at being dead, after dad killed them.

Pretty much what he and Hitler and the Nazis did to Germany at the end. Just not as well dressed.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/f0/200px-5-dead-goebbels.jpg

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 10:47 AM
Hay RS and what about Jacqueline Cochran's WASP


So USA also prepeared about 1000 of female pilots in the 1942;)
Was it communist blunder too?

Do you have any infor about military actions of WASP pilots?

I don't know anything about this.

Were they ferry / transport pilots or fighter / bomber pilots?

Chevan
08-03-2007, 11:01 AM
A great family man.

Here's what he did to 5 of his 6 his kids at the end.

They're not playing at being dead, after dad killed them.

Pretty much what he and Hitler and the Nazis did to Germany at the end. Just not as well dressed.



Yes Rising Sun.
This monstrouse act of Daddy-Goebbels just prove us the real face of the NAzy.
They want the suicidal Germany in the end.
How Hitler told - "if we will not win , we all die, but we take with us the WHOLE the world".

Chevan
08-03-2007, 11:02 AM
I don't know anything about this.

Were they ferry / transport pilots or fighter / bomber pilots?

Its seems the WASP transported the bombers and transport through Atlantic to the Britain - that's all that i ve learned for the while.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 11:09 AM
Its seems the WASP transported the bombers and transport through Atlantic to the Britain - that's all that i ve learned for the while.

I know women pilots ferried planes across the Atlantic, and elsewhere, but I thought you might have some information that they actually fought.

My understanding is that the non-Soviet female pilots weren't in fighting units.

Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 11:10 AM
Yes Rising Sun.
This monstrouse act of Daddy-Goebbels just prove us the real face of the NAzy.
They want the suicidal Germany in the end.
How Hitler told - "if we will not win , we all die, but we take with us the WHOLE the world".

Like any spoilt, petulant kid who can't get his way:

If I can't have it, nobody will!

Gen. Sandworm
08-03-2007, 11:47 AM
Sorry I havent been totally following this thread except for the retard that came by. Anyhoo ......... does anyone have info on women pows and how they were treated???

bwing55543
08-03-2007, 12:47 PM
Do you have any more info on women in the USMC fighting in the Pacific?

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/warwwii/a/military.htm
Found it. Women actually were primarily in the US Air Force. They also enlisted in the US Army.

George Eller
08-03-2007, 12:57 PM
Thanks for all you guys for understanding and support.


True PZ the National socialists ideology determined the woman place is in the home to birth ti children.
One of the most famouse propogandic "Ideal germans family" was the family of Goebbels with 5 children ( or 6?).
The Nazy propoganda trumpet Goebbels famaly as the exmple for all the Germans.
Nazy also supported the early marriages - it was absolutly normal the marriage of 16 years tenagers;)
However there were the one bright exception if Germany - famouse woman-fanatic Hanna Raich ( that the Rising Sun told about befor).
She was REALLY crasy even in the male standards;)
She was obligated to form the special unit of Germans kamikadze in the last months of the war.Hopefully this units has never been created coz as it said itler ( the Japanes kamikadse is not the Germans stile of thinking).


P.S. Althoug the NAzy was too ' noble ' not to send Germans woman to the front - they was OK to slaughter the millions of innocent womans and children accorging race principles in the East;)

P.S. Guys please follow the topic of thread.

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Great topic Chevan :)

Some interesting articles on Herr Goebbels the ideal nazi family man and his "model family" posted by our friend Lancer44 under the Ladies in WW2 thread.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85416&postcount=49

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85419&postcount=50

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85427&postcount=51

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Rising Sun*
08-03-2007, 06:42 PM
Sorry I havent been totally following this thread except for the retard that came by. Anyhoo ......... does anyone have info on women pows and how they were treated???

A good account of women POW's under Nippon is Betty Jeffrey's White Coolies.

Here's a summary http://www.angellpro.com.au/Jeffrey.htm

Google Vivian Bullwinkel and you'll find some more.

What you probably won't find is the truth about Japanese raping some Australian women POW's or using them as 'comfort women'. It seems from something that came out a few years ago that in at least one case a pact was made that some of them would become comfort women to save the others, but it would never be revealed once they were freed. To protect their honour, in a very different era.

I came across a Japanese soldier's evidence to a war crimes tribunal where he referred to an Australian nurse being raped by some Japanese on Banka Island. It was the night before Bullwinkel's party was machine gunned. I've never been able to find out more. She could have been part of that party and Bullwinkel kept the secret, or she might have been another survivor of the Vyner Brooke.

Chevan
08-04-2007, 09:25 AM
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/warwwii/a/military.htm
Found it. Women actually were primarily in the US Air Force. They also enlisted in the US Army.
Thanks bwing.

More than 1,000 women served as pilots associated with the US Air Force in the WASP (Women Airforce Service Pilots) but were considered civil service workers, and weren't recognized for their military service until the 1970s. Britain and the Soviet Union also used significant numbers of women pilots to support their air forces.

It s interesting- did the WASP piloted onlt the transport aviation?
I/ve read some of them carriaged of B-17 to the Britain - is it true?
And what about British woman pilots?

Rising Sun*
08-04-2007, 09:56 AM
It s interesting- did the WASP piloted onlt the transport aviation?
I/ve read some of them carriaged of B-17 to the Britain - is it true?
And what about British woman pilots?

I have some recollection of women pilots ferrying multi-engine aircraft from America to England, via Greenland (I seem to remember the bit about Greenland), but I can't find my source.

Some women pilots in the US flew just about everything, more than just about any man did, and were actually used to encourage men to fly planes that had a poor reputation.


Nancy was the first woman to fly virtually all the Army Air Force’s complex, high performance combat aircraft, such as the new P-51 Mustang and P-38 Lightning fighters, the four-engine B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bomber, and various multi-engine attack aircraft, medium bombers, and transports. Her example led the way for her original WAFS to also ferry combat aircraft and they, in turn, blazed the trail for a significant number of later women pilots to follow in their footsteps.
http://nationalaviation.blade6.donet.com/components/content_manager_v02/view_nahf/htdocs/menu_ps.asp?NodeID=1135791958&group_ID=1134656385&Parent_ID=-1


Many, in addition to towing targets, became test pilots, instructors, weather pilots, utility and cargo pilots, and trainers. In 1944 Lt. Col. Paul W. Tibbets, the pilot who later flew the Enola Gay over Hiroshima, chose Strother and Dorothea Johnson Moorman to learn to fly the B-29 bomber and convince men pilots that the huge aircraft, which had a reputation for unpredictability, was reliable. Neither Strother nor Moorman had ever flown a four-engine plane, which was why they were given the task. Tibbets needed to prove that the B-29 could be flown by anyone — even women.

Strother and Moorman only received three days of training. On one occasion Strother was in the air with Tibbets when an engine started smoking. Reacting with aplomb, "She did everything just like the book said to do it," Tibbets said in "Fly Girls."

After gaining familiarity with the plane, Strother and Moorman flew it from Birmingham, Ala., to Clovis, N.M., where they took male crews on flights to show what the B-29 could do.

http://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/northwestern/spring2002/features/flygirl/index.htm

Some more links
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/flygirls/peopleevents/pandeAMEX01.html

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/Women/AP31.htm

Chevan
08-04-2007, 10:01 AM
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Great topic Chevan :)

Some interesting articles on Herr Goebbels the ideal nazi family man and his "model family" posted by our friend Lancer44 under the Ladies in WW2 thread.

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Yea George thanks again;)
Sorry i've left out this great infor of Lancer.
The other side of "model family" was a devil's behaviour of Goebbels."I've turned the choicest statements over to the Fuhrer."
What's a bast...;)

Chevan
08-04-2007, 10:05 AM
Some women pilots in the US flew just about everything, more than just about any man did, and were actually used to encourage men to fly planes that had a poor reputation.

Well had the B-17/29 also a poor reputiation?
If the WASP pitots flew over Greenland - this possibly could the B-17/24.
So they were the very bold girls .

George Eller
08-04-2007, 10:37 AM
Oh Thank you very much George.
You was always able to find the a lot of material
Yes the "white rose of Stalingar" - the Lidia Litvak is pretti much look like the white rose.
Se was a blond, 21 years (in moment of death) - this youg bestia could make crazy any man.
She one of the most buatifull girl in her regiment.

The story of her love with the Alexej Solomatin - is also a quite amazing and tragical.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/d/d9/Solomatin_01.jpg/200px-Solomatin_01.jpg
Her husband Hero of the Soviet Union Aleksey Solomatin. ( 17 victories personal, 22 in group) 73 guard fighter regiment.
When in the beginning of 1943 the Lilia has arrived to the regiment , she was directed by the Solomatin as slave. They both made a lot of missions, bacame the lovers and soon they had a marriage ( in front).
But their happines were too short. In 21 may of 1943 Aleksej Solomatin were shoted in mission, he could reach of airgield and in the eyes of all of regiment and Lilia he perished crush-landing to death.
The Lilij very suffered for him and was physically and mentally worn out.
She survived only 3 mounth after his death.
BTW her resault - 14 victories for ONE year was very high even among all of allies aces .
For instance the Aleksandr Pokrishkin ( the second soviet ace) fought 4 years and shoted 59 aircrafts- i.e. about 15 per year.
Besides Lilia fought at the extremally hard period of 1942-43 when the Luftwaffe still had the superiority in the Eastern front.

Cheers.
-

You are most welcome Chevan :)

Indeed she was a beautiful young lady, as were many of her squadron mates and fellow female pilots. Her romance and marriage to Soviet ace Aleksey Solomatin and their subsequent deaths was such a tragic wartime love story.

Photo gallery:
http://wio.ru/aces/gal-f.htm

Here is the first story that I read about her. I scanned it from the book, Best Little Stories From World War II, by C. Brian Kelly, Montpelier Publishing, 1989, pp 121-123. The article itself was written by Truman R. Strobridge in Military History Magazine, December 1986.

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http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6625/whiterose01tr4.jpg

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2932/whiterose03tb0.jpg

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Footnotes:

W.W.II Aces: Lilya Litvak
http://www.musketeers.org/Lilya.htm
Despite an intensive search by ground forces, her body was lost for several decades. Finally, in 1979, she was found, buried beneath the wing of her aircraft. During her official state funeral in May 1990, President Mikhail Gorbachev awarded her the Hero of the Soviet Union and a Gold Star. Though she fought in obscurity and died alone, Lilya Litvak left a shining legacy of courage, tenacity, and daring as an example to all of us.

Lilya Litvak - The "White Rose" of Stalingrad
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/litvak/litvak.htm
Her remains were found at last in 1979, buried under her fallen YaK-1's wing, near the village of Dmitriyevka. Ten years later her body was recovered for an official burial; and in May 5, 1990 she was posthumously conferred the title of Hero of the Soviet Union by then Premier Mikhail Gorbachov.

Lydia Litvyak
(wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak
On August 1, 1943, Lydia's Yak-1b fighter was shot down during combat, and she went missing. She was 21 years old. The authorities suspected that she might have been captured, so they decided not to award her the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Only in 1979 was it determined that her aircraft had come down near Dmitrovka, a village in Shakhterski district and that she had been killed in action. After further verification, on May 6, 1990, USSR President Mikhail Gorbachev posthumously awarded her Hero of the Soviet Union and promoted her to full lieutenant. It's unclear if reported circumstances of her death are accurate.

The Search for Lilya Litvyak
http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/russianpart/ruslitvyak.html
Reina Pennington is an American author who has long been intrigued with the
story of Lilya Litvyak and the role of the woman fighter pilot. In 1994 she
wrote an article entitled Wings, Woman & War for the NASM's Air & Space
Magazine on these subjects. During her research she found that Litvyak's
mechanic, Inna Pasportnikova, was long tormented by the question of how to
prove that Lilya was killed heroically and not taken into captivity. Her
quest lasted nearly 50 years. From the above article the following time line
is taken:

Mid August 1943:
Litvyak's regiment, the 73rd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment nominates her
for the Hero of the Soviet Union medal, but the award was refused as her
body has never been found.

Summer 1946:
People search for Litvyak's aircraft near the spot where she disappeared. It
is not found.

1946 - 1968:
Through correspondence and media Inna Pasportnikova establishes contact with
several groups of school children Pioneers who live in the Dombass region.
These groups offer to help search for unmarked graves, aircraft wreckage,
and other war relics that they dig by hand.

1968:
A newspaper wants to revive the appeal to award Litvyak with the Hero of the
Soviet Union medal. Request denied, body was still not found.

1971:
Inna Pasportnikova and Lilyas' family search with the pioneers. In all, more
than 90 aircraft are found as well as the remains of many unidentified
pilots.

1979:
The pioneers find a crash site on a farm near Dmitrievka and are told that a
woman pilot had been buried there but then moved in July 1969 to a common
grave. The body is exhumed. The doctors can tell only that the pilot had
been a short woman and had sustained a head injury.

March 31, 1986:
Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense confirms that the woman pilot
who crashed near Dmitrievka had to be Litvyak.

1988:
Litvyak's name is placed on the common grave. Her records are changed from
missing without trace to killed in action, 1 August 1943.

May 5, 1990:
Chairman Mikhail Gorbachev signs a document conferring the title of Hero of
the Soviet Union on Lilya Litvyak.

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Chevan
08-04-2007, 11:52 AM
Oh tnanks George very much for the infor.
I was wnated to firnd any infor about their love strory with Aleksej Solomatin but i could not.
This is qute amazing story if frienship and love.
This could be a great movie scenario.
Unfortinatelly our russians sinema directors/produsers unable to shoot nothing more better then the ugly parody for the second-sort holliwood scrap "the Nights watch" or quite unpatriotic "9 company" about afganistan war.
Bstards...;)

George Eller
08-04-2007, 12:58 PM
Oh tnanks George very much for the infor.
I was wnated to firnd any infor about their love strory with Aleksej Solomatin but i could not.
This is qute amazing story if frienship and love.
This could be a great movie scenario.
Unfortinatelly our russians sinema directors/produsers unable to shoot nothing more better then the ugly parody for the second-sort holliwood scrap "the Nights watch" or quite unpatriotic "9 company" about afganistan war.
Bstards...;)
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My pleasure Chevan ;)

Maybe Russian cinema directors/producers could form a joint venture with our American counterparts...perhaps someone like Clint Eastwood "Million Dollar Baby", "Flags of Our Fathers" and "Letters From Iwo Jima". It's a thought :)

Here are some more links on Soviet women pilots in WWII.

Soviet Women Pilots in the Great Patriotic War
http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/sovwomen.htm

Marina Raskova and Soviet Female Pilots
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/raskov/raskov.htm

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Chevan
08-05-2007, 11:43 AM
-

My pleasure Chevan ;)

Maybe Russian cinema directors/producers could form a joint venture with our American counterparts...perhaps someone like Clint Eastwood "Million Dollar Baby", "Flags of Our Fathers" and "Letters From Iwo Jima". It's a thought :)

Oh George - this is the ill theme
Nobody do not even wish to make a real cimena ( the level of thre Flag of fathers of Saving Raiyn).
Honestly speaking the few try to make a something - for instanse the film 'Star" about soviet special unit in the germans rear.Or last film "Peregon" about the american female pilots ( !!! that's fun) who drive the lend lise Aircobra P-39 to the USSR through Suberia.Here the some of photos:
http://webtorg.narod.ru/wallpaper/film/peregon/photo-3.htm
BTW if it true and the buatifull american woman fly to the USSR - were they from WASP?;)


Here are more links on Soviet women pilots in WWII.

Soviet Women Pilots in the Great Patriotic War
http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/sovwomen.htm

Marina Raskova and Soviet Female Pilots
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/raskov/raskov.htm

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That's great George

Here is small episode from the combat efforts of Lilya Litvyak. On 22 March 1943, Litvyak was attacked by four Messerschmitt Bf 109s over Khar'kov area. Litvyak managed to shoot down two of the German fighters, while driving off the rest. This aerial engagement coincided exactly with the only two German Bf 109s lost in the same area on this date. The two German fighter pilots shot down were Leutnant Franz Müller (Bf 109G-4, coded "BH + XB") and Unteroffizier Karl-Otto Harloff (Bf 109G-2, coded "yellow 2") of the 9th squadron, fighter wing 3 (9./JG 3). German records have each of these men, who both survived, being reported shot down by Russian fighters.
That good details of her combat biougaphy.
BTW there were the one mistake in you previous post in the scanned book - the Lilij never fly on the Yak-9. The 73 Regiment was re-armed of it ONLY in the 1944.
Lilij fought in the Yak-1b till the death.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/2/20/Litvyak_02.jpg/439px-Litvyak_02.jpg

Cheers.

Chevan
08-05-2007, 12:30 PM
Some details of the death of Lidia in 1 august of 1943.
This infor i/ve foud in other forum
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4242&highlight=Litvak


Hello VVS experts,
maybe it allready had been a thread in this forum, but I was doing some research about the death of the female soviet fighter ace Lilya Litvyak, KIA on 01.08.43.

Female fighter pilot Guards Lt L. Litvyak (13+4 or 11+3 +1 balloon AV) flying 4 sorties that day (01.08.43) in a Yak-1 of 73 GIAP (296 IAP until 3.5.43)/ 6 GIAD is KIA on her 168th mission after claiming two last victories (Litvak, Lidiya Vladimirovna; VVS; 12+4 victories; 586 & 296 IAP, 73 GvIAP; 1 observation balloon shot down; KIA 1/Aug/1943; woman ace); she was s/d in two attacks by a Schwarm of 4 german Fw.190s (? See below) 2km N of Marinovka village; Lilya Litvyak was buried under the wing of her plane near the village of Dimitriyevka and made HSU only on 5 May 1990 when Mikhail Gorbachev was president.
According to Seidl: Litvyak s/d 1 Bf.109 jointly with fellow pilots in 3 sorties on 01.08.43, on the fourth sortie in the afternoon 6 Yak-1s of 73 GIAP attacked 30 Ju.88s and 12 escorts near Marinovka, Donetsk area, and Litvyak was s/d and crashed to death.
According to Polak/Shores: Litvyak s/d 1 Bf.109 on her third sortie and shared 1 Bf.109 s/d; on her fourth she claimed 1 more Bf.109 s/d, but was then attacked by another and dived into a cloud. Apparently her Yak-1M was hit and she crashed being buried close to her plane by local people, her remains were only discovered in 1990 by her former mechanic, St.Serzhant Inna Pasportnikova. Her CO prepared the documents for her appointment for HSU, but it there was the rumour that she was a POW of the Germans.

It it is very probable that Litvyak was s/d by Fw. Hans-Jörg Merkle of 1./JG.52 (based at Kuteinikowo with Bf.109Gs), who claimed a Yak-1 at 14.35 in the afternoon in combat at at 3.500m in (34 ON) 88239 that is exaxtly at Dmytrivka some 40km E of Donetsk. Dmytrivka is probably Dimitriyevka mentioned above as russian spelling sometimes differs in translations. According to my records this was the only Yak-1 claim made by JG.52 and 8./JG.3 this day.
8./JG.3 lost Bf 109G-4 W.Nr. 19708 "Schwarz 10 + |" (Uffz. Rudolf Backhaus MIA) after combat with Il-2s over Marinowka (3 Il-2s were claimed between 10.30-10.35, 1 more in the evening at 18.53); maybe Backhaus was a victim of 73 GIAP and Lilya Litvyak.

I´m curious if the experts here agree with...and if there exist any german records especially regarding Rudolf Backhaus and Hans-Jörg Merkle?

I´m aware that it allways will be difficult sometimes impossible to bring the opponents from over 60 years together and to some of you simply not necessary. For me personally speaking it makes history much more present and gives a cruel anonymous war a face.

Regards
Monaco



Just a detail that I oversaw. Checking Tony Wood´s ace list I found out that Fw. Hans-Jörg Merkle was a 30-victory ace and rammed by his last victim, a Yak-1...so maybe Litvyak commited a taran after being hit?
Was it real and Lilij rammed the FW of Hans-Jörg Merklebefor her death.
What's amazing girl?!!!

George Eller
08-05-2007, 04:38 PM
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Chevan, thanks for the link to the Russian film "Peregon". Great pics, too :)

I found some information about WASP involvement in ferrying lend-lease aircraft to USSR. From what I've been able to gather, it looks like WASP's did fly planes from the Bell factory at Niagara Falls, New York, and flew them to Great Falls, Montana. From there male pilots flew them through Canada to Alaska. Russian ferry pilots, many of them women, would take delivery of the aircraft in Alaska and fly them to the Soviet Union over the Bering Strait.

I thought that seemed strange in the story I scanned about Lilya Litvak. The Yak-9 did not match with any of the charts showing her kills and the aircraft that she flew (Yak-1 and Yak-1b).

Thanks also for your post with additional details surrounding her death on 1 Aug 1943 while flying her fourth sortie of the day. Interesting speculation... if she did ram Fw. Hans-Jörg Merkle's (30-victory ace) plane after being hit. She was a fighter to the end.

Here is more on the WASP's concerning your earlier question:

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P-63 Kingcobra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-63_Kingcobra
Air Transport Command ferry pilots, including US women pilots of the WASP program, picked up the planes at the Bell factory at Niagara Falls, New York, and flew them to Great Falls, Montana and then onward via the Alaska-Siberia Route (ALSIB), through Canada, over Alaska where Russian ferry pilots, many of them women, would take delivery of the aircraft at Nome and fly them to the Soviet Union over the Bering Strait. 2,397 such aircraft were delivered, out of the total 3,303 production aircraft (72.6%).

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ALSIB Alaskan/Siberian Ferry Route
http://books.google.com/books?id=A9QXxo-MeUEC&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=%22air+transport+command%22+women+ferry+pilots+ siberia&source=web&ots=V_Bn4De-Dc&sig=whBlAjPh1VkmJpN4baUQMKs08_s

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Ladd Field
ALSIB Lend-Lease and the Air Transport Command
http://www.usarak.army.mil/conservation/WWII_LaddField/Ch5.pdf

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:U_EeCLVDONMJ:www.usarak.army.mil/conservation

From 1942 to 1945, Ladd Field had a special mission. The airfield served as the official transfer point where American aircraft were turned over to the Soviet military on a back-door air route to the Russian war front known as the Alaska-Siberia (ALSIB) route. This complex transfer operation soon transformed Ladd Field into a busy bilingual air traffic hub with new personnel, facilities, and command structure. The Air Transport Command eventually took command of the field to support the Lend-Lease deliveries and other ATC responsibilities in the Alaska Theater.

From the footnotes:

The route began in Great Falls, and had landing fields in Alberta at Lethbridge, Calgary, Edmonton, and Grande Prairie; in British Columbia at Dawson Creek, Ft. St. John, and Ft. Nelson; in the Yukon Territory at Watson Lake and Whitehorse; and in Alaska at Northway, Tanacross, Big Delta, and Fairbanks. The ALSIB route combined the Northwest Staging Route, flown by U.S. pilots, with western Alaskan and Siberian segments flown by Soviet pilots. Soviet flyers took the route from Fairbanks, Galena, Moses Point, and Nome on to Uel’kal, Markovo, Siemchan, Yakutsk, Kirensk, Krasnoyarsk, and Novosibirsk.

The ATC was originally known as the Ferry Command. Women pilots in the WASP corps did not ferry aircraft along the northwest route during the war but did participate in ferrying aircraft from the factories to the departure point at Great Falls.

Precise figures of aircraft vary slightly according to source. Figures given at Ladd Field were 7,926 total ferried aircraft departures, broken down as: 2,618 P-39; 48 P-40; 3 P-47; 2,397 P-63; 1,363 A-20; 732 B-25; 710 C-47; 54 AT-6; 1 C-46. Monthly Historical Report, 1466thAAF Base Unit, September 1945. Microfilm AO177, Elmendorf AFB History Office. Also see Daniel L. Haulman, “The Northwest Ferry Route,” in Fern Chandonnet, ed. Alaska at War, 1941-1945: The Forgotten War Remembered (Anchorage: Alaska at War Committee, 1995), 324.

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Further Reading:

Blitzkrieg Baby
http://www.blitzkriegbaby.de/
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5002/bbir6.jpg
This page is dedicated to all women who served during WWII and helped to win the war against the enemies of freedom and democracy.

http://www.blitzkriegbaby.de/homepage.htm
http://www.blitzkriegbaby.de/wasp/wasp.htm
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/152/fifinellax6.jpg
Close-up of WASP mascot Fifinella, the
"good" little gremlin (design by Disney)

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Women Airforce Service Pilots
Killed in Service (Part 1)
(Part 1 - March 7, 1943 to April 25, 1944)
http://wwii-women-pilots.org/WASP_KIA/38KIA.html

Women Airforce Service Pilots
Killed in Service (Part 2)
(Part 2 - June 11, 1944 to December 9, 1944)
http://wwii-women-pilots.org/WASP_KIA/38KIA2.html

WASP on the Web
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/

Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP)
Remembered by those who knew them
http://wwii-women-pilots.org/

Women Airforce Service Pilots
http://www.twu.edu/wasp/
http://www.twu.edu/wasp/history.htm
http://www.wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/fifi.htm
Photo Galleries:
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/avenger_field.htm
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/flying_training.htm
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/ground_school.htm
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/graduation.htm
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/leaders.htm
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/photo/assignments.htm
1944 Records:
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/records.htm
Paper Doll
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/paperdoll/paperdoll1.html

More WASP Links:
http://wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/links/index.htm

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Chevan
08-06-2007, 04:14 AM
Oh thanks George again, really good stuff abiut theme.
So our bold girls from WASP participated in ferrying of the P-39 to the Suberia.
Good new. However they fly only untill the Montana.
And this is the news for me that the soviet pilots ferryed the P-39 through the Bering Strait. I thought the Americans did it ttill the Suberia;)


Soviet flyers took the route from Fairbanks, Galena, Moses Point, and Nome on to Uel’kal, Markovo, Siemchan, Yakutsk, Kirensk, Krasnoyarsk, and Novosibirsk.

So as i supposed the film "Peregon" lie about girls - the WASP pilots never fly till the Syberia and lie about american pilots in Syberia at all.
Or am i wrong?

George Eller
08-06-2007, 09:58 AM
Oh thanks George again, really good stuff abiut theme.
So our bold girls from WASP participated in ferrying of the P-39 to the Suberia.
Good new. However they fly only untill the Montana.
And this is the news for me that the soviet pilots ferryed the P-39 through the Bering Strait. I thought the Americans did it ttill the Suberia;)

So as i supposed the film "Peregon" lie about girls - the WASP pilots never fly till the Syberia and lie about american pilots in Syberia at all.
Or am i wrong?

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Sad to say Chevan, but that appears to be the case. Unless I have missed something.

It looks like historical accuracy has been sacrificed for the sake of "entertainment" in typical Hollywood fashion. The scenario for the movie might have been more plausible if the setting had been reversed - American men stationed in Alaska make romantic advances on beautiful Soviet women arriving to fly lend-lease aircraft back to Siberia. ;)

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Chevan
08-06-2007, 10:32 AM
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Sad to say Chevan, but that appears to be the case. Unless I have missed something.

It looks like historical accuracy has been sacrificed for the sake of "entertainment" in typical Hollywood fashion. The scenario for the movie might have been more plausible if the setting had been reversed - American men stationed in Alaska make romantic advances on beautiful Soviet women arriving to fly lend-lease aircraft back to Siberia. ;)

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Yea George , seems you right.
The real scenario should been reversed - the Americans should make the romantic advances with the soviet pilots-girls.
As i said yoy - those idiots-directors-produsers even do not try to shoot the REAL movie ( that could be seriouse-wathing)