Shotguns?

[bwing55543]

Although I see soldiers in video games carry combat shotguns, I seriously doubt if Americans actually carried them into combat during the second world war. Can someone clear this up for me?

[Gen. Sandworm]

I doubt that they were used in the ETO. The USMC might have found them advantageous in the PTO. Clearing caves, trenches ....... etc.

Here are 3 links that might help you in your pursuit!

http://www.answers.com/topic/ww2marineshotgun-jpg http://www.answers.com/topic/ww2marineshotgun-jpg

http://www.wwiiguns.com/store/product_details.php?p=224

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

[bwing55543]

What I usually see in games is the Winchester M1912 shotgun.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure how shotguns would be useful in Europe since the battles were either on flat planes (rifles are ideal) or in urban (here, you may want an SMG) settings. In jungles and caves, a shotgun would make sense.

[jacobtowne]

A gent I knew, veteran of WWII, was an armorer and sniper in North Africa and Europe. He used a shotgun extensively for clearing houses in Europe, preferring it to the Thompson.

JT

[1000ydstare]

Shotguns have their advantages and disadvantages in all areas of conflict.

They are generally short range weapons, but highly destructive.

In jungles care has to be taken with the cartriges that may allow water in, and they actually don't penetrate the foliage that well.

In fibua they are handy for taking off doors. Everything else can be conducted by rifle or grenade.

They seem to pop up in games to give the players a different weapon to choose from.

They were used in Vietnam, but I don't recall them being a blinding success, nor in any other theatre.

[bwing55543]

A gent I knew, veteran of WWII, was an armorer and sniper in North Africa and Europe. He used a shotgun extensively for clearing houses in Europe, preferring it to the Thompson.

JT

That is all I need thanks. :D

[savoy6]

the shotgun was used primarily as a guard weapon in rear areas,for POW's and such in most of the ETO and MTO.the army frowned on their use for anything else since their use is against the geneva convention...though some commanders didn't have a problem looking the other way for the few who did use them in the field.macarthur was one who addamantly opposed their use in units under his command.....the paper rounds were a real problem in the field though and had to really be babied,as has been noted..the USMC used them on a much larger scale ,especially since they were a standard issue item for ship's landing parties before the war.during several landing in the palaus and marianas islands there were whole "assault teams" who were outfitted with nothing but thompsons,shotguns,flamethrowers,massive amounts of grenades and satchel charges whose whole purpose was to clear trenches and bunkers...
the marine pictured in the first link is probably a member of one of these teams given the shotgun and the satchel charge he is carrying...

[Man of Stoat]

Shot guns are neither prohibited by the Geneva (which deals with treatment of civilians and prisoners of war) or Hague (dealing with the conduct of war) conventions.

[Rising Sun*]

They were used in Vietnam, but I don't recall them being a blinding success ....

Oh, Man!

Like ... Where were you? Then?

Like ... I mean ... Like, it was just totally amazing!

Like ... Wow!

Like, Man, the shottie was a cool pipe in Nam. You know what I mean?

Like, nobody got blind like on juice, or wasted like on powder, or hurt like with a needle, or anything. Just mellow.

Too cool, Man.

Chill out, Baby, and suck deep on this for a shottie cone stone.

[The foregoing has been heavily edited in a forlorn attempt to render it into recognisable English.]

American taxes at work in Viet Nam!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/44435/vietnam_shotgun_fun/

Edit: Notice how most of those pussies don't inhale? They could all, like Bill Clinton, become president.

Notice also how many rounds are ejected for each ejection action? Not a very safe weapon, or not a very safe operator. If this is representative of the quality of weapons training or the weapons, they are definitely safer using the gun as a pipe. :)

[Rising Sun*]

More seriously, here's some stuff on shotguns in WWII and Vietnam which, from my knowledge, rather overstates the significance and use of shotguns in both wars. Scouts (or point man in US) in jungle were more likely to be armed with SMG's than shotguns for the obvious advantage that 10 heavyish rounds fired at a fleeting figure at short range have a better chance of hitting it than one fired in the same time with, depending upon range, a wider spread than a rifled round but not all that wide and with limited penetration.

In practice, many, probably most, scouts were stuck with standard infantry rifles in both wars. It's not like everybody got to go down to some big gun shop run by a benevolent army concerned only with their wants and pick their preferred weapon before consenting to perform their duty as scout.

At the outbreak of World War II, the Army was woefully short of the number of shotguns needed for jungle and house-to-house fighting. Shotguns were procured in great numbers and from multiple firearms manufacturers. As a result, there was no standard shotgun during the War [a situation that was not rectified for many decades thereafter]. The shotgun was the secondary weapon of choice in the jungles of New Guinea. In the European theater, it was widely used in the house-to-house fighting across France. The shotgun had one major deficiency: it forced the soldier to carry two weapons -- the rifle (for long-range shots) and the shotgun. This was roughly 18 pounds of weapons. The result was that usually one man in the squad was assigned to carry the shotgun, sacrificing the longer-range fire of the M-1 rifle.

With the formation of the Military Police Corps in 1943, the shotgun was used to guard prisoners and supply lines in the extended rear areas and lines of communication back to the continental United States. Its capabilities were ideal for the professional law enforcement missions taken on during the war.

During the post-World War II era, numerous attempts (over a fifty-year period) were made to develop a semiautomatic combat shotgun that was reliable under combat conditions and firing all varieties of ammunition. None proved to be entirely satisfactory, and the American infantryman and military policeman fought in Korea and Vietnam with pump-action shotguns that re-validated their effectiveness. In Vietnam, the pump-action combat shotgun was the weapon of choice for point men and dog handlers on combat patrols. Specially modified shotguns were developed to engage and neutralize the North Vietnamese guard force during the unsuccessful 1970 Son Tay raid that attempted to free American prisoners of war located deep inside North Vietnam.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/shotgun.htm

In nearly every conflict in American history that soldiers marched off to war, some packed their shotguns. The Shotgun proved itself in the in jungle warfare during WWII when American soldiers involved in savage battles with the Japanese on islands throughout the Pacific used the weapon. After WWII, British soldiers involved in the counter-insurgency battles in Malaya also found shotguns effective. In-country the Shotgun was used by US Army, Helicopter crewmen, Brown Water Navy, Marines, Air Force, ARVN and even the VC! The weapon was not particularly favored by Australians forces.
Shotguns are essentially a close range weapon making it ideal for Vietnam. Most encounters in Vietnam and in most guerrilla wars averaged around less than 75 yards. Your typical shotgun has an effective range of 50 yards. For the lone individual assigned point who slowly moving along in the boonies pausing occasionally the shotgun gave him a firepower advantage against in enemy that could appear. One shot would win the day in these situations and it was then that a shotgun that mattered.
The tunnel rats also put shotguns to good use. Sgt. Flo Riviera was able to get a 4-gauge riot shotgun approved; "real handy that four-gauge, the noise blew your eardrums out but if there was anything at all infront of you, you hit it." With testimony like that it's easy to see why the Tunnel Rats grudgingly nicknamed their shotguns "Cannons." In the tight underground passages the weapon was ALWAYS effective, many a NLF soldier learned this the hard way.
Outside the jungle, shotguns were also effective for perimeter protection at airstrips, FSBs, and other strategic locations. Here the shotgun's lack of range was not a problem. Charging NLF/PAVN proved an easy target for buckshot. At night the shotgun's wide spread also helped "find" enemy who were hidden. Shotguns were also came in handy in the infrequently occurring urban battles of the war.
Shotgun's received a mixed response from the ARVN. The stout ARVN soldier found the shotgun to be rather cumbersome and to large to sustain a high rate of fire. The NLF scavenged and stole everything from empty C-ration cans to entire tanks during the war. Thus, they eventually acquired a few shotguns. A double-barreled shotgun encountered in 1968 had several few modifications. It was sawed-off and had been fitted with the "paratrooper-style" folding stock of a US M1 Carbine. The VC also manufactured crude shotguns out of sections of pipe.
A wide variety of Shotguns were used in Vietnam by US forces, due to the large number of shotguns grunts would have shipped to them from home. A shotgun from home gave a grunt an unparalleled familiarity with his weapon and thus a tactical edge. The most common shotgun was Remington 870; a 12-gauge pump action weapon, still in production today. It got off to a rocky start in Vietnam. The shells initially issued contained 8 "00 buck" pellets. A weapon with #4 buck (41 pellets) would've been more useful. Later as things improved a special adapter was added to help focus the spray of pellets. Other shotguns used included the Winchester Model 12, Steven's 12-gauge and the Ithaca Mod. 37 all pump actions. http://www.geocities.com/commande1/vnshotguns.html

[pdf27]

Shot guns are neither prohibited by the Geneva (which deals with treatment of civilians and prisoners of war) or Hague (dealing with the conduct of war) conventions.
IIRC the US had some doubts about whether they were legal or not during WW1. It didn't stop them using them, but they were officially called "trench rifles" to avoid problems.
Could it be something to do with the St Petersburg Declaration trying to ban weapons capable of causing "excessive injury"?

[1000ydstare]

If you had to I would want to use this one...

Pancor Jackhammer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer

or the SPAS-15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPAS-15

The search for a truely universal weapon goes on.

The US, and Russians tried a few varients such as...

http://world.guns.ru/assault/akm_gp25.jpg
AKM with GP-25 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rem870mcs_ax.jpg
Remington 870MCS as an "Auxiliary weapon", mounted under the M4A1carbine, to form so called Masterkey system

I have seen an AK-47 fitted with a single shot shotgun underneath the barrel. Loading was a bit hard, due to the mag haveing to be removed!!!!

Can't find any pics or info, was it a Yugoslavian special?

[1000ydstare]

Now apparently going back tooooo....
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/shotgun_1.jpg
After successfully testing a nine pound shotgun attachment (that went under the barrel of an M-16) in Afghanistan late last year, the army is shipping a new, and lighter, weapon of the same type to Afghanistan. The LSS (Lightweight Shotgun System) weighs less than three pounds ( 2 pounds, 11 ounces) and has a five round magazine, versus three for the earlier, nine pound, "Masterkey Breaching Module." The LSS is a 16.5 inch long, 12 gauge shotgun and can be operated right or left handed. It fires solid shot for blasting open closed doors, or lower velocity, non-lethal (most of the time) rubber slugs for dealing with hostile crowds without killing people. A stand-alone version weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces, is 24 inches long (with the stock collapsed). The LSS was rushed through development, testing and manufacturing because troops in Iraq expressed a need for this weapon. A batch of 200 have been produced and 50 are on their way to Afghanistan for field tests during actual operations. The LSS proved very reliable during testing, with some 15,000 rounds being fired.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/shotgun_2.jpg

Someday they may get the "holy grail".

http://artbeyond.webbuilder.hostbasket.com/images/LAWGIVER.JPG

More here :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawgiver

What is the 5.56/20mm design the Americans are looking at CIAW?

[savoy6]

Shot guns are neither prohibited by the Geneva (which deals with treatment of civilians and prisoners of war) or Hague (dealing with the conduct of war) conventions.

sorry...that was my understanding...that they were considered "inhumane" because of the type of damage they inflict....

[Gen. Sandworm]

sorry...that was my understanding...that they were considered "inhumane" because of the type of damage they inflict....

Wouldnt be any worse than most weapons you would find on the battlefield. I think I would rather get hit by a shotgun than a flamethrower. Dont like being burned.

Anyhoo............was watching a show on the history channel last nite about some marines on Butaritari and the Makin raid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makin_Raid

It mentioned that a NCO had the right to pick an alternate weapon. This Sergeant picked a shotgun. Not sure when this was allowed or not. Patton's pistols were not military issue thats for sure but he was a general. Maybe vcs-ww2 could explain further.

[overlord644]

i saw that too, it mentioned how as a noncom he got to choose his weapon, personally i don't think i'd like to get close enough to an enemy to effectively use a shotgun though

[1000ydstare]

The NCO might get the chance to pick his weapon, but only from a selection by the army.

He didn't get to pick what ever he fancied. Bearing in mind ammo resup.

[sniper18]

I doubt that they were used in the ETO. The USMC might have found them advantageous in the PTO. Clearing caves, trenches ....... etc.

Here are 3 links that might help you in your pursuit!

http://www.answers.com/topic/ww2marineshotgun-jpg http://www.answers.com/topic/ww2marineshotgun-jpg

http://www.wwiiguns.com/store/product_details.php?p=224

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

I really doubt that anyone for that matter would think that they were very useful but I guess it would be good for clearing caves and trenches.

[bwing55543]

I really doubt that anyone for that matter would think that they were very useful but I guess it would be good for clearing caves and trenches.

I can most easily imagine shotties being used to clear buildings.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Shotguns seem to have been fairly common amoung the US Marines. During the Banna Wars they were even more prevalent amoung the Marines in Hati, Nicaragua, and other "interventions" in Latin America and China. In China they seem to have been used in quantity by the 4th Marines for riot control and guard. I'd guess the US Army 15th Regiment also posted to China found them usefull as well. In the 1970s & 90s we still used a Remington pump shotgun for guard & riot duty.

Briefly in the 1920s the Marines were ordered to guard the US Mail in trains due to a rash of robberys, and shotguns are often visable in photographs of the guards. However the one instance of a mail robber being shot at seems to have involved a BAR at point blank range...

A Marine sergeant described that when posted to embassy guard duty in Brazil circa 1963 a combination night stick/shotgun was issued. These had a 20" or 50cm barrel with the handle as screw on breech. The trigger guard formed a sort of brass knuckle on the fist. They were used to clear the protestors or "commie rioters" out of the embassy lobby. These toys dont sound like a 'Offcially Authorized' weapon

00 shot was though the 1990s the most common load for the shotguns as guard weapons.

[Gutkowski]

Here is a M97 I just picked up and I can tell you I would not want to be on the receiving end of it ,
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/IMG_1910.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/IMG_1909.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/IMG_1911.jpg

[tankgeezer]

During WW1 Germans attacked a trench full of Tommys armed with the 97, it wasnt pretty.The only reason I remember this story is because the Germans cried foul on the use of trench guns.

[Rising Sun*]

During WW1 Germans attacked a trench full of Tommys armed with the 97, it wasnt pretty.The only reason I remember this story is because the Germans cried foul on the use of trench guns.

Yeah, the Poms should've stuck to nicer weapons, like mustard gas. ;)

[tankgeezer]

Yeah, the Poms should've stuck to nicer weapons, like mustard gas. ;)
I agree, traumatically dissolving lung tissue is far kinder than than loads of 00 buck.

[1000ydstare]

Funny story, well not neccesarily, the inventor of Zyclon B was a Jew. His wife killed herself because she didn't agree with his job - the creation of Nerve Gas to kill people.

Full story here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber

[tankgeezer]

Was Zyklon originally an insecticide,(neuro-toxin) then turned to the use for which it is infamous? seem to remember some such.

[Splinter54]

Yes, it was used to kill rats on ships :|

[Nickdfresh]

I really doubt that anyone for that matter would think that they were very useful but I guess it would be good for clearing caves and trenches.

And houses...

[George Eller]

-

IIRC, the Marines had some problems with the shells for their Model 97 shotguns during the First World War. The paper cased shells tended to swell when exposed for prolonged periods to humidity. This in turn led to feeding problems. I think that the problem was resolved after brass cased shells eventually became available.

-------

Dragon's Breath
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Breath

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Dragonsbreath.jpg

A Dragon's Breath usually refers to a zirconium-based pyrotechnic shotgun round. When the round is fired, a gout of flame erupts from the gun's barrel (up to 30 ft).

While it has few tactical uses, the visual effect it produces is impressive, similar to that of a short-ranged flamethrower. The pyrotechnic shell is expensive compared to other shells.

It cannot be used in a semi-automatic shotgun, because it is a very low-power round: it does not produce enough recoil energy to cycle the next shot, causing the weapon to jam. An additional reason for use only in a single-action weapon is the fact that the round shoots flame for 3-5 seconds: this would cause a hazard if a shell still emitting flame were to be ejected from an automatic shotgun'

Dragon's Breath rounds are banned in many locations, due to their inherent fire hazard.

-

[pdf27]

Funny story, well not neccesarily, the inventor of Zyclon B was a Jew. His wife killed herself because she didn't agree with his job - the creation of Nerve Gas to kill people.

Full story here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber
Ummm... wrong world war. Haber came up with the use of Chlorine gas as an attempt to break the stalemate on the Western front during WW1. Zyklon B releases Cyanide gas (blood agent, not nerve agent) and was invented between the wars, IIRC not by Haber (IG Farben maybe?).

[Carl Schwamberger]

In the first half of the 19th Century the US Army issued a load for the muzzle loading muskets often refered to as "Buck and Ball. Wraped with the musket ball and powder in the cartridge paper were a few 00 buck shot sized pellets. This was prefered for fighting in forrests or the dense grass & brush swamps of Florida. I suspose it would be usefull for riot control as well.

Earlier in the 18th Century there were still shorter barrel 'blunderbuss' type shoulder arms available onboard ships.

Since the 1960s there has been a 'shotgun' type cartidge made for the 40mm M79 and M203 series of grenade launchers.

At the larger scale there were the flechette or "Beehive" rounds for the 105mm howitzers. A modern version of the old 'grapeshot' of the smoothbore howitzers.

[GermanSoldier]

I believe that these shotguns like the M97 were more common with the marines in close combat in the Pacific Theatre. I am not sure with much more information then this, but i should probably research it more.

[imi]

My choice in shotguns
Combat:Bennelli M4 semi automatic shotgun
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3308/benellise7.jpg
Hunting:another nice benelli with single or double barel
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4338/bergoldetrapcombouj6.jpg
Jackhammer Pancor autoshotgun for the biggest animals :)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9960/pancorjackhammer0cm0.jpg

[Major Walter Schmidt]

did the Germans use Shotguns?

[Panzerknacker]

did the Germans use Shotguns?


The answer is simple, they didnt use shotguns in military roles.