Karabiner K-98.

[Crosshairs]

What were the advantages, and or disadvantages of this weapon? If any at all would help!

[overlord644]

you should probably do a search first, but the main disadvantage to a k98 during ww2 was that americans were equipped with the m1, thus giving the average american gi fire superiority over most german infantry, however i think that the mosin-nagant had a higher effective range and so did british enfrields

[Man of Stoat]

Use the search function, it has been discussed at length previously. Probably under one of those ghastly "best rifle" threads.

[Crosshairs]

sorry, i just didn't know where to go to find this information

[Man of Stoat]

At the top of this page you will find "search". Click it. Then click "advanced search". Enter my username and Mauser or K98 or k98k or kar98k into the relevant fields. Perform the search.

[Man of Stoat]

This from elsewhere in the forum:

I've dealt with the Kar 98k elsewhere on the forum, but a brief summary follows:

Recoil - punishing, and unnecessarily so.
Action - slow to operate, cocks on opening (makes opening the bolt harder but does reduce the lock time), and can be dirt-sensitive (too many bearing surfaces in the cocking piece mechanism). Bolt handle too far forward.
Magazine - only 5 round capacity.
Sights - Miserable - the blade is too coarse, and are designed in such a way that under stress you'll shoot high (when the sights are lowered, the little U-notch sits at the bottom of a big, square notch. The temptation is to line the front post up with this big notch, not the little one, and therefore shoot high).
Heating - 3 rounds in rapid fire & the heat haze coming off the barrel starts to obscure the target and sights. 10rds & it's getting really wobbly.
Safety catch - awkwardly placed, awkward to use.
Forward locking - although theoretically much stronger (this is only an issue if you want to make a hunting rifle using a high-pressure cartridge though), the breech face is shrouded by the front of the action - makes cleaning difficult & checking clear harder.

Does that answer your question?

[Gen. Sandworm]

Damn MoS maybe its nappy time! Grumpy bastard :D

[Crosshairs]

This from elsewhere in the forum:

I've dealt with the Kar 98k elsewhere on the forum, but a brief summary follows:

Recoil - punishing, and unnecessarily so.
Action - slow to operate, cocks on opening (makes opening the bolt harder but does reduce the lock time), and can be dirt-sensitive (too many bearing surfaces in the cocking piece mechanism). Bolt handle too far forward.
Magazine - only 5 round capacity.
Sights - Miserable - the blade is too coarse, and are designed in such a way that under stress you'll shoot high (when the sights are lowered, the little U-notch sits at the bottom of a big, square notch. The temptation is to line the front post up with this big notch, not the little one, and therefore shoot high).
Heating - 3 rounds in rapid fire & the heat haze coming off the barrel starts to obscure the target and sights. 10rds & it's getting really wobbly.
Safety catch - awkwardly placed, awkward to use.
Forward locking - although theoretically much stronger (this is only an issue if you want to make a hunting rifle using a high-pressure cartridge though), the breech face is shrouded by the front of the action - makes cleaning difficult & checking clear harder.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, thanks! the info was most helpful

See, I am doing some amateur research on the german weapons of WW2. And I just needed some quick links/info to get me started.

Thanks!

[tankgeezer]

Aside from M.O.S. excellent info, I was told by a friend years ago, who was in the Wehrmacht that the biggest problem with the 98 was that it was a bolt action rifle fielded in a time of semi-automatics.The higher rate of fire, better sight picture control, and larger magazine capacity, made the semi-autos far superior to 98's Though this was not the problem in the East, so much, rifle against rifle, the sub-machine gun evened the odds against the 98.

[overlord644]

try this link crosshairs
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/arms.htm

[bas]

Aside from M.O.S. excellent info, I was told by a friend years ago, who was in the Wehrmacht that the biggest problem with the 98 was that it was a bolt action rifle fielded in a time of semi-automatics.The higher rate of fire, better sight picture control, and larger magazine capacity, made the semi-autos far superior to 98's Though this was not the problem in the East, so much, rifle against rifle, the sub-machine gun evened the odds against the 98.

Which is why we don't pay too much attention to "a friend years ago, who was in the Wehrmacht", because he's wrong.
1. The Soviet Union fielded a 10-shot semi-auto rifle before the US army did.
2. Rifle to rifle the M1 garand may be superior to the Kar98k, but section to section the Germans had superior firepower over the Americans because of the MG.34 and MG.42 which by far out weighed the US advantage of having every rifleman armed with a semi-auto.
3. The submachine gun does not "even the odds" against a rifle. It enables a country to quickly and cheaply arm and train masses of conscripts.

[overlord644]

i believe your refering to the SVT-40, which i believe was not produced on a lare scale until after the M-1, also only 1.6 million of theses were produced, which when compared to size of the soviet army is not that many

[bas]

i believe your refering to the SVT-40, which i believe was not produced on a lare scale until after the M-1, also only 1.6 million of theses were produced, which when compared to size of the soviet army is not that many

You're beliefs are wrong.

The Soviets had started the issuing of a self-loading rifle to their troops in 1938 with the SVT-38. Combat experience in the Winter War with the Finns lead to some improvements and the SVT-40 came out. It was intended for the SVT-40 to become the standard infantry rifle for the whole army and mass production was started. However in 1941 the Germans were so rude as to invade, causing the Russians to revert back to the tried and true Mosin-nagant which was cheaper to produce and more suited to raising and training a huge conscript army.

This aside production of the SVT-40 continued throughout the war and probably peaked in 1942 by which time they had produced 1.3 million rifles.

Conversely America was busy staying out of WWII, up until it was attacked by Japan in December 1941. Most of the fighting in the Pacific in the early months was done by Marines armed with 1903 Springfields and Johnson semi-auto rifles. It wasn't until 1942 that production of the M1 Garand caught up with demand.

Over all production of the M1 was minimal, 4.5 million between 1938 and 1957, compared to an estimated 5 million PPSh-41's between 1941 and 1950 or the 12 million Kar98ks produced from 1936 to 1945. It's anybody's guess as to how many mosin nagants were produced!

[overlord644]

You're beliefs are wrong.

The Soviets had started the issuing of a self-loading rifle to their troops in 1938 with the SVT-38. Combat experience in the Winter War with the Finns lead to some improvements and the SVT-40 came out. It was intended for the SVT-40 to become the standard infantry rifle for the whole army and mass production was started. However in 1941 the Germans were so rude as to invade, causing the Russians to revert back to the tried and true Mosin-nagant which was cheaper to produce and more suited to raising and training a huge conscript army.

This aside production of the SVT-40 continued throughout the war and probably peaked in 1942 by which time they had produced 1.3 million rifles.

Conversely America was busy staying out of WWII, up until it was attacked by Japan in December 1941. Most of the fighting in the Pacific in the early months was done by Marines armed with 1903 Springfields and Johnson semi-auto rifles. It wasn't until 1942 that production of the M1 Garand caught up with demand.

Over all production of the M1 was minimal, 4.5 million between 1938 and 1957, compared to an estimated 5 million PPSh-41's between 1941 and 1950 or the 12 million Kar98ks produced from 1936 to 1945. It's anybody's guess as to how many mosin nagants were produced!

thats what i'm sayign there were more m1's in the US than there were SVT-40's in the USSR, whose standard rifle was the mosin nagant

[tankgeezer]

Which is why we don't pay too much attention to "a friend years ago, who was in the Wehrmacht", because he's wrong.
1. The Soviet Union fielded a 10-shot semi-auto rifle before the US army did.
2. Rifle to rifle the M1 garand may be superior to the Kar98k, but section to section the Germans had superior firepower over the Americans because of the MG.34 and MG.42 which by far out weighed the US advantage of having every rifleman armed with a semi-auto.
3. The submachine gun does not "even the odds" against a rifle. It enables a country to quickly and cheaply arm and train masses of conscripts.

The question was about the pro's and con's of the mauser 98 in its various forms. and not particularily about how it stacked up against another rifle, The observation I made was one that is often overlooked. It was a bolt action rifle fielded in a time of semi-autos, (regardless of who's they were) in the context of the second world war, its a relevant observation.
As far as my old friend who spoke of this to me, all I can say is, He was there, in Russia, and lived through it. He was there, were you? Your attitude does not become you. If you have occasion in the future to quote me,or make reference to me, please check your attitude at the door. - Raspenau -

[bas]

thats what i'm sayign there were more m1's in the US than there were SVT-40's in the USSR, whose standard rifle was the mosin nagant

Did you even understand what I said? The M1 Garand was produced from 1936 to 1957 or an average of 214,000 rifles per year. Of course there will be peaks in production (between 1942 and 1945) but compare that against 1.3 million SVT-40's made between 1940 and 1942. Thats an average of three times as many rifles per year as the M1 Garand.

If you look at those figures you'll agree that the Soviets were mass producing a semi-auto before the American army was.

[bas]

[QUOTE=tankgeezer;104481Your attitude does not become you. If you have occasion in the future to quote me,or make reference to me, please check your attitude at the door. - Raspenau -[/QUOTE]

If you're going to tell me off, at least you could do me the curtesy of comprehending what I wrote. If you are not clear on any points please ask.

[overlord644]

Did you even understand what I said? The M1 Garand was produced from 1936 to 1957 or an average of 214,000 rifles per year. Of course there will be peaks in production (between 1942 and 1945) but compare that against 1.3 million SVT-40's made between 1940 and 1942. Thats an average of three times as many rifles per year as the M1 Garand.

If you look at those figures you'll agree that the Soviets were mass producing a semi-auto before the American army was.

do you have any idea how many people were in the soviet army? compared to all those people 1.3 million is nothing

[tankgeezer]

If you're going to tell me off, at least you could do me the curtesy of comprehending what I wrote. If you are not clear on any points please ask.
Your disparaging remark concerning my friend now passed on,and what he said about the M-98 is what I take exception to. Choose your words with greater care. When the first words off your keyboard are a slam to my friend, it really doesnt matter what else you may have to say.your point is moot. - Raspenau -

[ssfeldjager]

What were the advantages, and or disadvantages of this weapon? If any at all would help!

Gee, my first post on this forum and it seems that your simple question has sparked bickering among those who reply. Too bad.

Forget the search; ask a question if you have one. Isn't that one of the reasons why this and other forums exist? To ask questions? Who cares if it's repetitive? As to those who want to play the 'go use the search' function in response to a logical question, if someone doesn't like the question, all they have to do is move on to another thread.

While I'm not near as knowledgeable as others on this forum, the K98K was a very reliable rifle as the model went. Unfortunately, the design accomodated only five rounds. Definately a disadvantage when the opposition has a standard issue weapon that is able to handle more rounds. Heating of the barrel after "X" number of shots? Yeah, probably an issue, but my guess is that the average K98K user probably wasn't too worried about that concept; he was mainly concerned in trying to use the rifle to keep himself alive. He wasn't commenting to himself during a firefight something like "Gee... I see heat waves coming off the barrel after however many shots I've taken. That's bad for my sight picture, so I should let me barrel cool down before taking more shots." Hey, just a guess there on my part. And there's more pros and cons, but I need to let others have something to comment on, don't I?

So, having stirred the pot here and will no doubt elicit however many 'nasty' responses, I maintain my position that if you have a question, ask. Otherwise, sooner or later all possible questions on all subjects will be asked and the forum can be shut down, using the logic of the 'search first' crowd.

Now, I'm awaiting the fireworks...

[Man of Stoat]

err, the heat haze is so severe that you can neither see your foresight properly, nor see what you are shooting at. And it happens with a frighteningly small number of rounds.

[50gunship]

My great uncle used his m-1 grand for hunting game after the war...
He would file down the bullet and flatten it and took some of the powder out of the bullets to lessen the kick.

He won a medal of honor on iwo jima as a medic in the marines and made a knife out of a Japanese bayonet. The knife was returned to him 60 years after the battle by another solider who happened to pick it up off the island. (note the blade was still sharp after all that time.)

i like the k98 night fighting set up as much as i like the m-1 grand night fighting set up.

[Chuck Walker]

The accuracy and power is great!

it was used in ww1

[Man of Stoat]

Chuck,

Wrong on both counts: the accuracy is rather poor, even in the sniper versions, it is overpowered (which it has in common with most of its contemporaries), and it was not used in World War I, the Gew 98 and Kar98a were.

[Splinter54]

No. 32 - what's that for a gun? Looks like a kar98k in the back, but it is a russia gun - thanks for clearing this up! :) (why is the scope attached in such a strange way?)

http://i11.tinypic.com/6azot3c.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

I dont know precisely but I think this must be some kind of post war variant.

[jrw1268]

Did you even understand what I said? The M1 Garand was produced from 1936 to 1957 or an average of 214,000 rifles per year. Of course there will be peaks in production (between 1942 and 1945) but compare that against 1.3 million SVT-40's made between 1940 and 1942. Thats an average of three times as many rifles per year as the M1 Garand.

If you look at those figures you'll agree that the Soviets were mass producing a semi-auto before the American army was.

If the M1 Garand was the standard service rifle in 1936 and the SVT-38 didn't begin production until 1939 how were the Soviets mass producing a semi-auto before the American army was? Also up to the end of 1942 there were over 2.3 million M1 Garands produced as to 1.6 million SVT-40 and 150,000 SVT-38s (production of SVT-38 ended April of 1940.

[RifleMan20]

No. 32 - what's that for a gun? Looks like a kar98k in the back, but it is a russia gun - thanks for clearing this up! :) (why is the scope attached in such a strange way?)

http://i11.tinypic.com/6azot3c.jpg

I think the scope was put like that for easy reload but am not for sure, the design was defenialy a russian design by my point of view

[Panzerknacker]

A nice video showing the different stages of manufacture the K98, stock making, barrel rifling, alignment of the sights, etc.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufjbv3H3QI

[tankgeezer]

Very nifty footage. The Barrel straightening was interesting to see as well, I know its used more in the modern swaged forming of barrels where the rifling is impressed by means of a mandrel inserted into the tube, and then the tube is swaged down upon it. very cool.

[bwing55543]

Nice. :D

[Panzerknacker]

Sure is.
Very nifty footage. The Barrel straightening was interesting to see as well, I know its used more in the modern swaged forming of barrels where the rifling is impressed by means of a mandrel inserted into the tube, and then the tube is swaged down upon it. very cool.

Thas is cold hammering , the K-98 used the invididual rifling cut. Is worth to note that not all share the poor opinion about the K98 that somebody have in here.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=rG6OeVnoQrc

[tankgeezer]

Sure is.Thas is the "cold hammering" , the K-98 used the invididual rifling cut.Is worth to note that not all "experts" share the poor opinion about the K98 that somebody have in here.http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=rG6OeVnoQrc
I do agree my friend, cut rifling is preferred, but is not as cheaply or quickly accomplished as the cold formed rifling. I have always enjoyed using the 98, and when in the business, could never find enough to meet the demands of the market. They were (and are) a popular rifle.

[Panzerknacker]

K-98K with ZF 41 scope.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/166/zf411pb9.jpg



The ZF 41 components.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8625/zf47zl.jpg


In the field, the magnification was merely 1,5x and it had a very long eye relief.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2960/zf412le5.jpg

[bwing55543]

Just wondering, does anyone know if that was the scope the German sniper in Saving Private Ryan was using on his Kar98k?

[Panzerknacker]

I think it was a 6x Hensoldt, just a guessing, could be any other.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2051/alemaneq2.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

By the way this is the ZF 39 4x..it looks very much alike.http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4134/k98tl1.jpg

[Wolfgang Von Gottberg]

K-98K with ZF 41 scope.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/166/zf411pb9.jpg



The ZF 41 components.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8625/zf47zl.jpg


In the field, the magnification was merely 1,5x and it had a very long eye relief.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2960/zf412le5.jpg

Panzerkacker:

The second photo you posted was not used on the Mauser K98, it was used on the Gewehr 43.

-Wolf

[Panzerknacker]

Yes, and is not a ZF 41 Thanks for the correction.

[Panzerknacker]

Carcano 91/38 TS-S in Cal. 7,92x57 Mauser

An interesting complement of the K98, the italian army rifle rechambered to accept the larger 8x57mm cartrigde.


( edited, links dont work anymore)

[tankgeezer]

Were there any reports of its effectiveness using the 7.92 or of failures to hold the pressure of it?

[bwing55543]

"One batch was already converted [to 8mm Mauser] in World War II (around 1941), but never saw troop service", as said in the wiki article of the Carcano. In other words, there were no reports of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

[Panzerknacker]

Were there any reports of its effectiveness using the 7.92 or of failures to hold the pressure of it?

According to that link:

Inutile dire che la prova di quest'arma in poligono, ha denotato il carattere "burbero" di questo moschetto di soli 3 Kg di peso e 920 mm di lunghezza, con una canna di soli 415 mm, che camerato per la potente munizione Tedesca, da uno scossone ed un rinculo veramente poderoso, un bel calcio di mulo sulla spalla!

Per via della presunta fragilità che gli si attribuisce, il sottoscritto ha sparato diverse munizioni con carica piena, senza riscontrare il ben che minimo problema, a parte un forte mal di spalla alla fine della sezione di tiro.

Is idle to say that the test in shooting range of this weapon had showed some of its "bitchy" character, with just 3 kilos, 920 mm overall lenght ,a barrel of 415mm and chambered to the powerful german cartrigde it give a hefty reacoil like a kick of a mule in the back ¡In regard of the alleged fragility the one who write this had spended seveal type of full load rounds, without found any minimal touble...more than a mauled shoulder at the end of the shooting session.

( Sometimes to be half italian is useful hehehe)

[Moreheaddriller]

Any one know where to buy some german guns

[Man of Stoat]

Try your local gun store, a look in the advertisement section of Shotgun News magazine.

[Wolfgang Von Gottberg]

Here's mine!!!

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s81/GermanWW2/10-20-07075.jpg

If you want more photos please PM me! :D

[Moreheaddriller]

dude thats awesome mines a luftwaffe kar98

[imi]

Nice.One of my favourite guns.Here is one,with a beautiful scope
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/28524-2/sniper1qa2