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pdf27
09-18-2008, 06:05 PM
Far too many (http://www.burmastar.org.uk/suezmaru.htm), unfortunately.

(BBC iPlayer link here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00dhlf9) for anyone interested in more about the Suez Maru)

32Bravo
09-19-2008, 06:28 AM
Yea, but I guess we are in the quest to find out what was the level of "dirtyness".



Only one way to find that out, my friend...there is no substitute for experience.

32Bravo
09-20-2008, 06:09 AM
Dirty yes, but shooting survivors in the water goes beyond the pale. If it did indeed happen. There is the Law of Armed Conflict to go by.



Yes, but should it be that way?

Perhaps, if there were no rules and anything goes then people would think twice before becoming involved in war. A kind of MAD in a conventional fashion.

The rules of the game imply that it is a game and that we'll all be "Home by Christmas". Why have rules?

Is it not ridiculous, indeed, to blow someone to kingdom come for doing their duty, and yet accept a truce or surrender under a white flag from those that choose not to do their duty? Why not fight until one side annihilates the other? In some ways, the question returns us to the debate regarding Bomber Harris.

Perhaps "All bets are off!" (to quote Nick), makes for a far better deterrent than nuclear destruction.

Apologies to PK for straying so far off topic, but in my opinion war is atrocious and if people continue to try to destroy each other under any form of justification, then that is shear folly. Accept war for what it is before sending young men to their doom and desist from glorifying it... easier said than done, I know.

reydelcastillo
01-07-2009, 02:53 PM
Good afternoon Gentleman , I'm looking for Aerial Photos from the conflict , in particular over Stanley and that would show defense positions -

Thanks Regards Enrique

Major Walter Schmidt
01-18-2009, 01:38 PM
http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v57/157/5/1609980033/n1609980033_30014618_6542.jpg

Schuultz
01-19-2009, 09:34 AM
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/5870/mal1ph4.jpg

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/111/malbf6.jpg


These guys look as if they were straight out of WW2... how could they ever expect to win against the British Army, or did Argentine hope that the British just wouldn't give a darn about that little island in the South Atlantic?

Panzerknacker
01-19-2009, 03:08 PM
That particular platoon did not performed bad though, 3 british helicopters down with only light weapons the 21th may.



or did Argentine hope that the British just wouldn't give a darn about that little island in the South Atlantic?

Galtieri spected exactly that, however the lower rank commanders as Busser, Castellanos and Menendez were not so convinced and warned about the possible british reaction.

reydelcastillo
01-19-2009, 03:29 PM
That is what I think has happen -

At first no reaction was expected , few troops send to the islands

Then when GB Task Force started the trip heading South , with the blockade in place it was already too late to organize something and that is why what ever could be gather and send was done by air - Too little . too late -

Besides that without Air Cover and without having control of the sorrounding waters , you can't move troops arround - So at the end , what ever was send to the islands , remmained where initially deployed wich actually was a road with a dead end -

Schuultz
01-20-2009, 07:30 AM
That is really the only scenario I can imagine without everybody in the Argentinian high command suffering from megalomania and a loss of reality...

A nation like Argentina could never expect to defeat a war-hardened nation like the UK in open conflict, especially with the military equipment they had, and on an island with a terrain so unsuitable for guerrilla warfare like the Falkland Islands.

Of course it was an unexpected move from the Britons to actually fight and kill for a worthless little island off the Argentinian coast, but I wouldn't be surprised if Thatcher had considered it a very personal conflict.

The British Empire had collapsed all over the place over the last half century, and she wouldn't allow "some Dictator in South America" to further humiliate the UK...

There's been another nation that failed not only once, but twice because the Brits reacted to the invasion of a seemingly unimportant nation/region...

You could say they have a track record for being 'easily irritable'. :mrgreen:

reydelcastillo
01-20-2009, 10:04 AM
That was a good Post -

We went for the Islands because we like to do things now and think about it later -

And you came back for them because you are easily irritable -

Regards Sir

Enrique

Schuultz
01-20-2009, 12:47 PM
I'm not British, reydelcastillo...

reydelcastillo
01-20-2009, 01:11 PM
My mistake

Nickdfresh
01-20-2009, 09:02 PM
That is really the only scenario I can imagine without everybody in the Argentinian high command suffering from megalomania and a loss of reality...

A nation like Argentina could never expect to defeat a war-hardened nation like the UK in open conflict, especially with the military equipment they had, and on an island with a terrain so unsuitable for guerrilla warfare like the Falkland Islands.


I don't totally agree. From the Argentine perspective, it was perhaps thought the British would be very hard pressed to assemble the task force they did. Were the British servicemen better trained all-volunteers, provided more advanced technology, and have a more modern tradition combined with actual experience in foreign conflicts against intractable enemies - yes. There is a big difference in the "projection of power" where one has to send forces far from their bases and strain the logistical supply chain. I imagine that the Argentines thought the Brits would negotiate, and if it did come to conflict, that they could inflict enough casualties and damage that the British would withdraw as the Falklands weren't exactly the center of commerce and if the cost were too great than they would abandon them is some face-saving sort of way as they did parts of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. I doubt any but the most delusionally optimistic of the Argentine commanders believed they could face down the British in a straight-up infantry fight. But I doubt they expected the RN fleet air arm to so effectively provide a screen against their Air Force. Most probably thought it a multidimensional battle where the Argentine forces simply had to survive on the Falklands while inflicting enough casualties on both land and sea to force a stalemate, and hence, a victory of sorts.


Of course it was an unexpected move from the Britons to actually fight and kill for a worthless little island off the Argentinian coast, but I wouldn't be surprised if Thatcher had considered it a very personal conflict.

The British Empire had collapsed all over the place over the last half century, and she wouldn't allow "some Dictator in South America" to further humiliate the UK...

There's been another nation that failed not only once, but twice because the Brits reacted to the invasion of a seemingly unimportant nation/region...

You could say they have a track record for being 'easily irritable'. :mrgreen:

There was certainly the perception that the British regarded this as an opportunity to reestablish themselves in the international realm. But I doubt more than a few had any illusions regarding colonial resurgence. And there was something about a hostile takeover of her citizens by a less than democratic minded gov't of *****s that threw their kids out over the ocean from C-130s...

Schuultz
01-21-2009, 09:25 AM
I'm not saying the wanted to restart their colonial times, I'm just saying they wouldn't want to let a Southern American dictatorship just take away 'British Land' by force and not respond to it.

And the fact that they lost one former colony after the other probably let the British government to react that strongly. They wanted to send a message that even though the British Colonial Empire might be in shatters, they are still a power to be reckoned with.

Lone Ranger
01-22-2009, 08:04 AM
It had nothing to do with colonial times or past glories or fading dreams of Empire. By 1982 the British Empire had effectively gone, in the vast majority of cases the British granted independence avoiding wars of independence, with most former colonies retaining a relation to the UK through the British Commonwealth.

On the Argentine part it was largely a miscalculation, with the Junta assuming the British wouldn't fight as it dismissed democracies as weak. Nor was it about sending a message; the British entered negotiations to avoid a military confrontation but if you follow the progress of those negotiations the British offered concessions whilst the Argentine Government dillied; they agreed a formula then at the last minute withdrew on several occasions. Having taken the Falklands, they found themselves in the position that they couldn't back down or make concessions.

Nickdfresh nailed it when he said "And there was something about a hostile takeover of her citizens by a less than democratic minded gov't of *****s that threw their kids out over the ocean from C-130s..." Its often said that democracies find it difficult to go to war over a principle, in fact that is pretty much about the only thing they do go to war for. Additional factors were that the British were involved in territorial disputes elsewhere, like Guatemala eyeing Belize. To do nothing would have invited further similar actions elsewhere.

Signals of War by Virginia Gamba-Stonehouse and Sir Lawrence Freedman has a fairly rigorous analysis of the lead up to the conflict; though I have to say you can recognise the bits she wrote.

Schuultz
01-22-2009, 12:35 PM
You say the Falklands war had nothing to do with sending a message, but later you admit that if they had allowed the Argentinians to do what they want with the Falklands would have suggested that others could do the same thing with territories they eyed.
You totally contradict yourself by first claiming it wasn't about sending a message, and then arguing that it was meant as a message.

Nickdfresh
01-22-2009, 07:12 PM
I'm not saying the wanted to restart their colonial times, I'm just saying they wouldn't want to let a Southern American dictatorship just take away 'British Land' by force and not respond to it.

And the fact that they lost one former colony after the other probably let the British government to react that strongly. They wanted to send a message that even though the British Colonial Empire might be in shatters, they are still a power to be reckoned with.


To an extent. But it was not "land" but people that counted. The point I am trying to make an failing to articulate is that the Falklands were not islands that were inhabited by anything other than people that regarded themselves as citizens of the UK. It's up to the local populace to decide which country they want to be in as their state. Therefore, it was in fact a conflict that was post-Empire, and a provocation to any state no less inflammatory than if the French decided that they wanted to control the Isle of Wight since it might have been a Norman settlement at one time. A bogus argument that regards symbols as more important than the self-determination of human beings. It was the Argentines that were reflecting the very essence of colonialism here..

Schuultz
01-22-2009, 07:20 PM
It's up to the local populace to decide which country they want to be in as their state.

That has never worked. Ask the Texans ;)

Nickdfresh
01-22-2009, 07:22 PM
That has never worked. Ask the Texans ;)

Okay, I think they have elections (even there :D). Maybe we can attach a proposition to the ballot?

BTW, what are you exactly referring too?

Schuultz
01-22-2009, 07:28 PM
Okay, I think they have elections (even there :D). Maybe we can attach a proposition to the ballot?

BTW, what are you exactly referring too?

The American Civil War, Yank ;)

Nickdfresh
01-22-2009, 07:33 PM
The American Civil War, Yank ;)


Oh, well, I was thinking of the here and now. Not the past.

In any case, that's not even close to an analogy...

More like I think you should live in the 51st state, Canadian. ;)

Schuultz
01-22-2009, 07:42 PM
Oh, well, I was thinking of the here and now. Not the past.

In any case, that's not even close to an analogy...

More like I think you should live in the 51st state, Canadian. ;)

Canada is too big for a single state, that's why we haven't accepted yet. ;)

And I always thought that either Israel or Britain were the 51st state? :D

Lone Ranger
01-24-2009, 03:04 PM
You say the Falklands war had nothing to do with sending a message, but later you admit that if they had allowed the Argentinians to do what they want with the Falklands would have suggested that others could do the same thing with territories they eyed.
You totally contradict yourself by first claiming it wasn't about sending a message, and then arguing that it was meant as a message.

No I don't contradict myself, I said it was "an additional factor", thereby implying it was not the main consideration. But whatever, ignore what you don't like if it makes you feel better.

Schuultz
01-24-2009, 06:15 PM
Sorry that from a neutral Outsider's perspective I am not capable of guessing the motivation as well as you, a citizen of the warring nation whose government had to justify their war. :oops:

/sarcasm

Lone Ranger
01-25-2009, 09:49 AM
Sarcasm being the lowest form of wit?

Schuultz
01-25-2009, 11:11 AM
Touché. But appropriate in this situation.

Lone Ranger
01-25-2009, 02:54 PM
On the contrary, sarcasm carries poorly on the Internet and usually generates nothing but heat and light. If you disagree with me fine, I happen to think you're wrong. And judging from your response, I would suggest you're not neutral.

Moreheaddriller
01-25-2009, 03:09 PM
i think he's being sincere besides why are you getting mad over this its just a forum its not life threatening is it?

Lone Ranger
01-26-2009, 02:46 PM
Who said I was mad about it?

Schuultz
01-26-2009, 03:21 PM
Attitudes are another thing that carries very badly over text. I hoped you wouldn't let that get to you, but I was really starting to wonder if you took it personal.

Panzerknacker
03-05-2009, 04:28 PM
3 good pictures of the Navy`s Super Etendars In operations, may 1982.

http://i43.tinypic.com/14sfeds.jpg


http://i39.tinypic.com/157khky.jpg


http://i43.tinypic.com/2ch2q6r.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-01-2010, 01:40 PM
Very rare images of the Pucara in torpedo test flights , Santa Cruz june 1982.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1648/pasadatorpedo.jpg


http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5354/pucatorpedero2.jpg


http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1208/pucatorpedero1.jpg

Uyraell
08-03-2010, 08:34 AM
Damn fine pictures Panzerknacker, and truly rare. My profound thanks for posting them.
The Pucara is one of those aircraft not often thought of, much like it's distant cousin, the Bronco.
I regard both as very fine examples of COIN aircraft.

PK, have you any idea as to the model of torpedo in pic 3 ?
I notice it has a guideframe, presumably for water entry, around the propeller shroud, which is not present in pics 1 and 2.
This suggests different torpedoes, and thus different weights, different models.

Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-04-2010, 09:05 AM
The torpedo is an MK 13 made in USA, but I know it was also tested with 324 mm antisubmarine torps, no photos of that though. The Pucara in a very interesting aircraft that deserves his own topic for sure. The Bronco had something to do with his design, specially in the cockpit configuration, there was even a Bronco coming to Cordoba from USA a moth earlier the Pucara First flight in 1968.

Uyraell
08-04-2010, 01:26 PM
The torpedo is an MK 13 made in USA, but I know it was also tested with 324 mm antisubmarine torps, no photos of that though. The Pucara in a very interesting aircraft that deserves his own topic for sure. The Bronco had something to do with his design, specially in the cockpit configuration, there was even a Bronco coming to Cordoba from USA a moth earlier the Pucara First flight in 1968.

Many Thanks for your reply , my friend. :)
I did know the Bronco contributed some cockpit layout ideas to the Pucara, and while I still prefer the Bronco, I admit the Pucara may well be the better of the two aircraft, over-all.
Though: I'm still curious as all hell about the German Broncos with the jet engine mounted piggy-back (`a la, He 162), employed for sprinting speed at post-attack exit. I have a kit of the Bronco, but have not (as far as I recall) seen a kit of the Pucara.
I agree the Pucara is worthy of a thread of it's own, but perhaps a COIN-Aircraft of the 1960's thought 1990's thread might better serve?
My idea here is that though both were very fine aircraft, there was indeed a wide range of COIN aircraft produced in many nations though out the decades I mention, and that many of those derive inspiration and origin from WW2 aircraft.

Kind and Respectful Regards my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-04-2010, 04:54 PM
I agree the Pucara is worthy of a thread of it's own, but perhaps a COIN-Aircraft of the 1960's thought 1990's thread might better serve?
My idea here is that though both were very fine aircraft, there was indeed a wide range of COIN aircraft produced in many nations though out the decades I mention, and that many of those derive inspiration and origin from WW2 aircraft.

Sounds good, sounds good, i am woking on it.

The german Broncos were used as target tugs.

Uyraell
08-04-2010, 10:24 PM
Many Thanks my friend.
I'd forgotten the German Broncos had been used as target tugs., Strange how memory sometimes slips.

Am wondering on the Mohawk OV1 as used in Vietnam being considered a COIN aircraft. It would be considered so nowadays, but some half-formed thought says it ran under a different tasking designation in VN. At best, I recall it was not employed in the same manner as Skyraiders (aka "Sandies") or B26 Invaders, nor the AC37 Dragonflies.

The other thought I had was on the Gunships, such as the C47 Spooky, the C119 Stinger, and the AC130 Spectre.
In the larger sense, they are COIN aircraft, though to a degree specialised .

I'll do a bit of research as well, because the Cavalier and Turbo Cavilier (Basically rebuilt/re-engined P51/F51) also enter the picture to a small degree, as does the YQ/YQ series of quiet aircraft.

Kind and Respectful Regards PK, Uyraell.

Pánzon
08-06-2010, 07:56 PM
Helo everybody, long time no "see" ;-)

Panzerknacker, congrats for the pictures, as they said they are extremelly rare and I will certainly refer people to see them from other friends forums.

Somewhere there is the "account" or what it slipped to public or is simply a fabrication from imagination.

But iremember they were torpedos very old which were used from the Catalinas.... I seem to remember that NOBODY in activity knew anythig about them or how to use them, drop speed, angle of attack, etc.......... I think they were not even user´s manuals and the last operator was in a sheltered home for being old!

In any case, they tried hard, and apparently almost got the " launch top" but the war finally ended without opportunity to try an attack, thing that probably was good as torpedo attacks agaist moder AAW and flak... it would have been suicidal.........

I will try to get the link to the "gossip" about it.

Cheers to all,

Juan.

PS: Congratulations also for the promotion! A Full blown Colonel !

Panzerknacker
08-06-2010, 09:12 PM
Muchas Gracias Panzon.

In regard of the torpedo armed IA-58 I read somewhere that the intended metod was as an auxiliary anti-submarine patrol helped by sensors of the navy S-2Es. The S-2e has the range to reach the Malvinas as loiter for about 3 hours. In the other hand the 24 Pucaras based in the Islands had not such range but since they did not need to cover the 1200 km from mainland argentina with 2 x300 l standar wingtanks they would be ok for a patrol. I an projected combined mission the Ia-58s would fly next to the S-2e and when the Tracker detect something they could attack with torpedos both or just one aircraft.

I dont know if that is complete crap but thats is how I remember.

I cant say for sure but I dont think that ever crossed the Air Force High Command to operate the torpedo Pucara against the british frigates or destroyers, the aircraft simply wouldnt survive the antiaircraft screen.





Am wondering on the Mohawk OV1 as used in Vietnam being considered a COIN aircraft.


The mohawk would be a good COIN but I guess it was overshadowed by the OV-10 in Vietnam and displaced to the observation and FAC role. By the way Argentina bought 24 Mohawks in 1992 and still has some in use.

Uyraell
08-07-2010, 06:19 AM
Muchas Gracias Panzon.

In regard of the torpedo armed IA-58 I read somewhere that the intended metod was as an auxiliary anti-submarine patrol helped by sensors of the navy S-2Es. The S-2e has the range to reach the Malvinas as loiter for about 3 hours. In the other hand the 24 Pucaras based in the Islands had not such range but since they did not need to cover the 1200 km from mainland argentina with 2 x300 l standar wingtanks they would be ok for a patrol. I an projected combined mission the Ia-58s would fly next to the S-2e and when the Tracker detect something they could attack with torpedos both or just one aircraft.

I dont know if that is complete crap but thats is how I remember.

I cant say for sure but I dont think that ever crossed the Air Force High Command to operate the torpedo Pucara against the british frigates or destroyers, the aircraft simply wouldnt survive the antiaircraft screen.





The mohawk would be a good COIN but I guess it was overshadowed by the OV-10 in Vietnam and displaced to the observation and FAC role. By the way Argentina bought 24 Mohawks in 1992 and still has some in use.


I'd be interested to see pictures of the Mohawk OV1 in Argentine Service, my friend.
Thank you for the further clarification regarding the torpedoes, I did find it interesting' sort of a 1980's take on similar anti-shipping strikes as done in certain Coastal Command raids during WW2.
_________________


Panzon: Hello and Salutations. :)

Many Thanks to you for your additions to the torpedo information as well, Sir.

I spent some considerable time reading over at the other forum:
I must say I was impressed with the warmth and cooperation between both Argentine and Brit members there.

I was even finding my very small knowledge of Spanish slowly improving as I read the posts.

However: the greatest thing I saw there was also the most moving: The respect between all members there, for each-other, and the compassion towards those who had fallen, both in the conflict and since.

I very nearly signed up to that forum, but refrained as I have so little to contribute, it being that my received view of the Falklands War was completely a media one: there just was not the information available at the time outside media sources, and so the war itself tended to become somewhat neglected as knowledge in the years that followed it.

It is a genuine pleasure to see you back here, Panzon. :)

Kind and Respectful Regards Gentlemen, Uyraell.

Pánzon
08-07-2010, 07:19 AM
Panzon: Hello and Salutations. :)

I spent some considerable time reading over at the other forum:
I must say I was impressed with the warmth and cooperation between both Argentine and Brit members there.

I was even finding my very small knowledge of Spanish slowly improving as I read the posts.

However: the greatest thing I saw there was also the most moving: The respect between all members there, for each-other, and the compassion towards those who had fallen, both in the conflict and since.

I very nearly signed up to that forum, but refrained as I have so little to contribute, it being that my received view of the Falklands War was completely a media one: there just was not the information available at the time outside media sources, and so the war itself tended to become somewhat neglected as knowledge in the years that followed it.

It is a genuine pleasure to see you back here, Panzon. :)

Kind and Respectful Regards Gentlemen, Uyraell.[/QUOTE]

Hello Uyrael, many thanks for your kind reception after several months without visiting this forum where I also have some friends. With regards to the "other forum", you must be mentioning Zona Militar, well...... go ahead and enroll yourself there, as you said the subject is threated with respect and there is also the presence there of many VGM´s ( Malvinas War veterans) which, for the first time are telling their stories and the boys make the effort of translating into English the postings by British visitors. Trolls last there more and less seconds like over here and I will gladdly introduce you to everyone. Actually I think this two forums are quite interesting and anyone is invited to discuss and share information.

Question, what Uryael means? Sounds sort of middle eastern!

Cheers and let us stay in touch.

Juan.

leccy
08-07-2010, 07:54 AM
Slightly better picture showing the fore and aft attachments

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=187247&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1280487414

Some problems they had launching the Mk13 torpedo and the solutions (Although when they changed from Pucara AX-04 to A-566 they seemed to have some more)

Link to article (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/fma-ia-58-pucara-coin-aircraft-1599.html)


The first launch of a Mk.13, takes place on 22 May, the torpedo having been a practice round, not equipped an explosive head. The launch zone established by the Navy, was located 40 miles from Puerto Belgrano, and would be the same location where later the same day, the second test launch would take place.


Launch involved having the aircraft establish a 20 degree dive, at a speed of 300 knots and at approximately at a height of 100 mts., resulting on the destruction of the torpedo when it impacted the sea. The same happens the next day when the parameters were a 45deg. dive, speed of 250 knots, and approximate height of 200 mts.

It became evident that there was something missing for the torpedo to be effectively deployed from an airplane with the performance of the Pucará.

Lacking the torpedo's operational manuals for air deployment, the only information available was that it should enter the water at an angle of approximately 20 degrees. With a less acute angle, the torpedo would bounce when hitting the water, thus damaging the internal and propulsion mechanisms, and if the angle was greater, then there existed the risk that it would "spike" itself on the bottom of the sea.

After consultations conducted with retired sub-officers who had been assigned to the Army's torpedo shops, a nose-mounted aero-dynamic brake was installed on the Mk.13, and a biplane stabilizer was installed in the tail end, additions that would be destroyed when the torpedo hit the water.

After these modifications were undertaken, the first successful launches take place on 24 May, off Trelew, in the waters of the San Jose Gulf. These took place while the airplane was on a straight and level flight attitude and at a height of 15 meters, and it was then determined that the optimal speed was 200 knots, since higher speeds caused the torpedo to impact the bottom of the sea.

Pánzon
08-07-2010, 08:08 AM
Muchas Gracias Panzon.

De nada Panzerk! muy buenas fotos!

In regard of the torpedo armed IA-58 I read somewhere that the intended metod was as an auxiliary anti-submarine patrol helped by sensors of the navy S-2Es. The S-2e has the range to reach the Malvinas as loiter for about 3 hours. In the other hand the 24 Pucaras based in the Islands had not such range but since they did not need to cover the 1200 km from mainland argentina with 2 x300 l standar wingtanks they would be ok for a patrol. I an projected combined mission the Ia-58s would fly next to the S-2e and when the Tracker detect something they could attack with torpedos both or just one aircraft.

I never heard or read anything like this, but it creates some good questions......... As far as I know, the torps tried were only "straight attack ones" from wwII era ( former Catalina teething), thus, with no hidrophones who could guide them to a submarine in a scheme as the one you describe. I think it really was the "need to do something more"........ try something........ not really possibilities of success in there.......... except.. perhaps........ a massive attack to the landing in San Carlos, I am talking of a sort of "alpha attack", a coordinated effort to try to entertain the British PACs in a bid to gain something in the confussion........ in any case, they were not Japanese torpedo pilots.......... something like that would have needed months of training and all was sort of improvised........

The possibility to use self guided ones like the light torpedoes that were used from the "alouette" helos seems to me a bit farfetched as they have their "ears" in the front and I am under the impression that they were designed to be "dropped" from a helicopter with very little forward speed, some of the "old horses" from WWII literally broke un parts when launched during trials.......... I think a launch of a AS 244 were? would have destroyed the transducers and left the torp "deaf" and thus useless.


I dont know if that is complete crap but thats is how I remember.

I think is one of the stories that we will in time know better, on this regard, I think that forums like this are great to bring out the truth of that story.

I cant say for sure but I dont think that ever crossed the Air Force High Command to operate the torpedo Pucara against the british frigates or destroyers, the aircraft simply wouldnt survive the antiaircraft screen.

Yes, I agree, but if somewhere.......... at some time.......... Swordfishes "slowed down" the Bismark, which had more an less double quantity of flak than the whole Task Force South,........perhaps. with adecuate training......... who knows...... coming down from the shore, hidden in the clutter.......

A British friend of mine, former crew member of the HMS Antelope, told me laughing that their gunners were not able to hit a barn at a 100 feet, however, one of them managed to down the A4 of 1st Lt. Guadagnini ( the one that ended up crashig agains the aerial)
.

Cheers,

Juan.

Pánzon
08-07-2010, 08:18 AM
Very good data and in English! Quick reaction Leccy.

Uyraell
08-07-2010, 12:56 PM
Panzon: Hello and Salutations. :)

I spent some considerable time reading over at the other forum:
I must say I was impressed with the warmth and cooperation between both Argentine and Brit members there.

I was even finding my very small knowledge of Spanish slowly improving as I read the posts.

However: the greatest thing I saw there was also the most moving: The respect between all members there, for each-other, and the compassion towards those who had fallen, both in the conflict and since.

I very nearly signed up to that forum, but refrained as I have so little to contribute, it being that my received view of the Falklands War was completely a media one: there just was not the information available at the time outside media sources, and so the war itself tended to become somewhat neglected as knowledge in the years that followed it.

It is a genuine pleasure to see you back here, Panzon. :)

Kind and Respectful Regards Gentlemen, Uyraell.

Hello Uyrael, many thanks for your kind reception after several months without visiting this forum where I also have some friends. With regards to the "other forum", you must be mentioning Zona Militar, well...... go ahead and enroll yourself there, as you said the subject is threated with respect and there is also the presence there of many VGM´s ( Malvinas War veterans) which, for the first time are telling their stories and the boys make the effort of translating into English the postings by British visitors. Trolls last there more and less seconds like over here and I will gladdly introduce you to everyone. Actually I think this two forums are quite interesting and anyone is invited to discuss and share information.

Question, what Uryael means? Sounds sort of middle eastern!

Cheers and let us stay in touch.

Juan.[/QUOTE]

Hello Panzon, :)

Thank you sir, for your kind reply.
I'll enroll there at Z_M once I find the link again, it's still in browser history.
I'm certainly interested in the history both sides have to share.

My nickname "Uyraell" is a very ancient spelling of the Latin Uriel.

Culturally, the Church managed to get a few things wrong with calling only Uriel the "Angel of Death" (?"Angelo Des Meurtes"?) ... in the original Legends Uriel "took" the Souls, Asrael "transported" them. Both together are "The Grim Reaper"/"Angel of Death". Both are twin brothers, both are ArchAngels.

In other places on the net, I use the name ^Uyraell^, and I also write poetry under the same name.

For many years now,^Uyraell^ or Uyraell has been My online Name. The Spelling I use predates Christianity.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzon, Uyraell.

Uyraell
08-07-2010, 01:13 PM
Brilliant picture Leccy, Thank you for posting it. :)

The rack the torpedo is on calls to mind the ETC 501 employed on the FW 190 A-5/U14.
Fore and aft retainer, short-armed crossbraces.

It would have taken a lot of courage to be the pilot of either aircraft, going into attack in that mode.

Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-07-2010, 05:06 PM
I'd be interested to see pictures of the Mohawk OV1 in Argentine Service, my friend.
Thank you for the further clarification regarding the torpedoes, I did find it interesting' sort of a 1980's take on similar anti-shipping strikes as done in certain Coastal Command raids during WW2.



You will, you will.

Thank for the aditional information Leccy.

Panzon: I undestand that the helicopter torpedo would be useless in a Pucara but wasnt the S-2e having more or less tha same speed as the pucara capable to drop torpedos also ?

Of course I guess they needed time for more test, time that wasnt available .

http://www.aviationart.com.ar/galerias/militar/POSUB.jpg


Now the frontal attack with lineal trajectory torpedo seems, and I dont mean anything disrispectul to you, kind of suicide, maybe was not, but that is how I see it.

http://www.aviationart.com.ar/galerias/perfiles/pucara/Puca4.jpg

Pánzon
08-07-2010, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE=Panzerknacker;170341]Panzon: I undestand that the helicopter torpedo would be useless in a Pucara but wasnt the S-2e having more or less tha same speed as the pucara capable to drop torpedos also ?

Of course I guess they needed time for more test, time that wasnt available .

YOu are completely right! How can I be so stupid not to think on that! YOu have left me "bare assed".

Now the frontal attack with lineal trajectory torpedo seems, and I dont mean anything disrispectul to you, kind of suicide, maybe was not, but that is how I see it.

I agree. I was just trying to find a reason for that............................... the more I think about it the more I think that some crazy ideas were boiling then............... I can´t imagine a "Hiro Kitai" of Pucarás!
Juan

By the way ! Exellent painting by Carlos García, my appreciated "Mr. Járcia" from Argentina. I recommend to all a visit to his website to see such nice pieces of art www.aviationart.com.ar all are oil over canvas master pieces.
The site is both in Spanish and English.

Panzerknacker
08-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Mr Ezequiel martinez have some decent painting too, this incidetally display the demise of Guadagnini a-4s and the fatal blow to the HMS antelope.

http://exequielmartinez.com.ar/malvinas/guadagnini.jpg (http://exequielmartinez.com.ar/malvinas/guadagnini.jpg)

Uyraell
08-10-2010, 10:42 PM
You will, you will.

Thank for the aditional information Leccy.

Panzon: I undestand that the helicopter torpedo would be useless in a Pucara but wasnt the S-2e having more or less tha same speed as the pucara capable to drop torpedos also ?

Of course I guess they needed time for more test, time that wasnt available .

http://www.aviationart.com.ar/galerias/militar/POSUB.jpg



Now the frontal attack with lineal trajectory torpedo seems, and I dont mean anything disrispectul to you, kind of suicide, maybe was not, but that is how I see it.

http://www.aviationart.com.ar/galerias/perfiles/pucara/Puca4.jpg

Panzerknacker my friend, you may wish to research the circumstances by which the Grumman S-2e came into Argentine service.
Yes: the original S-2e was very capable of dropping torpedoes, as in fact it had been conceived with this ASW role in mind.

However: iIrc (from another site, years ago, on USN Aircraft) the Trackers Argentina purchased were only able to be delivered to Argentina once the torpedo launching gear and targetting gear had been removed. This was because of the US State Department refusing to allow the torpedo equipment to be sold abroad (according to the reliable site I read this on).

From what I recall, the S-2e's arrive in Argentina without the torpedo-equipment attached/fitted.

It is this factor you may wish to research: I have a feeling your sources of information may well be far better than mine in this context.

Kind and Respectful Regards, PK my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-12-2010, 04:40 PM
Is possible that the torpedo launching mecha was not operative but also likely that it ws put in place in the argentine naval workshops. Remember that the frenchs sold the Super etendar without the complete software for launching the exocet missile. and the Exocet were launched succesfully after a lot of experimentation and test by the technical naval departament.

Trackers: more info translate here

http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Armada%20Argentina/AviacionNaval/AS-Tracker.htm

Pánzon
08-12-2010, 05:07 PM
Just to add my two cents, I have heard that the P3B Orion little fleet that the COAN operates came also "bare naked" inside, specially in the ASW aspect........ I was told that the equipment was literaly torn apart from its racks..... The radar came because it is an analogical vintage.

Well........ now at least one of them can launch exocets, the radar has been digitalized by a scanner so it seems it can even clasify contacts. And I was also told that at least some of them have recovered their ASW "Nature"......

Also they have been equiped with an Argentine developed Data link ystem called LINK ARA........ this aparently alows to receive and send info to the systems of other units, aerial and naval. So, what is detected by the P3B, can be used to attack as well as transfering info to for exsmple to the Sues so they can apear from nowhere.

In spite of the shortage of funds, they are not standing still. They even developed a battle system called MIniacco I supose as a joke due to the similarity with the SEWACO system from Signaal that equips the fleet..... all units apparently are being upgraded with this, even the A 69 Corvettes made in France.

Cheers,

Juan.

Panzerknacker
08-13-2010, 09:03 AM
In the minute 4 of this video you can see some of the screens inside the Navys P-3s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpr6JoU3uNc

Uyraell
08-13-2010, 02:39 PM
A good clip, Panzerknacker my friend, and a good soundtrack too.
Looking at those screens, it is clear there have been system upgrades, even if the consoles them selves are of an earlier generation that is current elsewhere.
The way the data itself is presented on the consoles seems to confirm this idea.

As I've said elsewhere in other contexts, Argentina has performed a series of small military miracles over the years, often in technology that other nations take for granted. As such, Argentine ingenuity is to be admired, and I do.

The classic WW2 example is the Hispano cannon in the Spitfire.
One very unknown story, (and one that I have forgotten most details of, myself) is that it was an Argentine Armourer/Groundcrew in the RAF that solved some of the jamming issues in the early model Hispano employed in the Spitfire Mk II/Mk I B. He repositioned one of the brackets in the mounting. It wasn't a "100% perfect" solution, but it was a solution that was very workable, and one that the "armaments experts" had not come up with, nor foreseen as necessary.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
01-20-2016, 12:33 PM
Lovely clip showing the tigercat air defense missiles, englische untertitel von panzerknacker.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f75_1351002720