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View Full Version : The forgotton victims of the war.



1000ydstare
06-10-2007, 02:26 AM
Approx 300 British and 450 Argentine veterans have killed themselves since the end of hte Falklands.

Mainly because in niether country they h ave been forgotton or simply not been given the treatment that they require.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1899458.ece

Panzerknacker
06-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Why this little war was so traumatic ?? no idea.

Just imagine if the ww2 veterans would commit suicide in that percentage....tens of thousands.

1000ydstare
06-10-2007, 02:47 PM
WW2 was just as traumatic, it was just that many of the vetrans could turn to others who knew what had happened and numbers weren't kept.

Even as far back as Rourkes Drift PTSD was known if not named. One survivor shot himself in the head in his backyard in Manchester, after many nightmares of Zulus comeing in to his house to kill him.

It is also telling that more (percentage wise) fighting was done hand to hand in the Falklands than WW2.

Panzerknacker
06-10-2007, 03:15 PM
Well I the last part I agree, the percentage of people killed by bayonet must be a lot, lot larger than the ones in WW2.

But that still dont explain all the cases.

Pánzon
09-03-2007, 03:03 PM
Also, it is interesting to say that there was a considerable ammount of Argentine officers fallen in combat, a tremendous percentage...... that is to that people that say that the officers "hid" and only the soldiers fought....

Cheers,

Pánzon.

1000ydstare
09-04-2007, 12:55 PM
You've lost me there Panzon.

Could you elaborate on that? Or prove it with a credible source?

If true it is possible that as the Argentine Army was largely conscript more officers were killed as they were leading their men; the conscripts were, in most cases, poorly trained and inexperienced of military life let alone combat.

On the British side it was quite telling that a number of senior officers in the Infantry Battalions were injured and killed; especially at Goose Green. Including a Lt Col, the Commanding Officer of 2 Para.

According to the Wiki Argentine ground casualties were....

Argentine Army: 194 Killed. Of which 16 were officers, 35 were NCOs & 143 were conscripts.

Argentine Navy : 34 Marines. Of which 1 was an officer, 3 were NCOs & 30 were conscripts.

Gendarmería Nacional Argentina: 7 commandos. Of which 2 were officers, 4 were NCOs & 1 was a gendarme (Private).

Total Killed 235. 19 Officers, 42 NCOs and 174 Privates or 1:2:9. 19 OFs to 216 ORs or 1:11.

I wouldn't really call that considerable. Especially as in the Argentine Army a lot of tasks carried out by NCOs in the British Army are carried out by Officers.

The Army Officers were
General de Brigada I CLODOVEO MIGUEL ÁNGEL ARÉVALO * CDO CPO EJ V

I have tried to research this, but a General de Brigada or a Brigade Commander was probably not killed in combat. Unless anyone knows different.

Capitán I ROBERTO MARIO FIORITO B AV COMB 601
Capitán I RUBÉN EDUARDO MÁRQUEZ CA CDO (S) 601
Capitán Com JUAN CARLOS BUSCHIAZZO B AV COMB 601

Probably Platoon Commanders killed leading their men. Especially as they were 601.

Teniente 1ro Ing JULIO CÉSAR AUVIBUX * B ING 601
Teniente 1ro Com MARCOS ANTONIO FASSIO * B AV COMB 601
Teniente 1ro I ROBERTO REMI SOSA * LMGR
Teniente 1ro A ALEJANDRO DACHARY GADA 601
Teniente 1ro I ERNESTO EMILIO ESPINOSA CA CDO (S) 601
Teniente 1ro I ROBERTO NÉSTOR ESTEVEZ RI MEC 25
Teniente 1ro I LUIS CARLOS MARTELLA RI MEC 4
Teniente 1ro A ALBERTO ROLANDO RAMOS GA 3
Teniente C JUAN OMAR ABRAHAM * ESC EXPL C BL 1
Teniente I OSCAR AUGUSTO SILVA RI MEC 4
Teniente I JUAN DOMINGO BALDINI RI MEC 7
Mayor A MARCELO SERGIO NOVOA BR MEC X

Same detail.

THat is assumeing that none of the casualties were simply unlucky and were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

ie when a shell decided to co-locate.

In comparison British Casualties (on the ground but again not neccesariliy due to groung - ground action)

British Army. 123 (7 officers, 40 NCOs & 76 privates)

Royal Marines. 27 (2 officers, 14 NCOs & 11 privates)

Total 150 Dead. 9 Officers, 54 NCOs and 87 Private.

or
1:6:10 or 1:16 for the Brits.
and
1:2:9. or 1:11 for the Argies.

Like I say.

In the Argentine Armed Forces (it being a conscript Army and not British) officers take a lot of the responsibilities that in the British Army are taken on by the NCOs, in particular the SNCOs and Warrant Officers.

I don't mean the "British" comment flippantly. The British Army has a particular way, there is a lot skills and experience held in the British WO and SNCO Cadre that are held by Junior Officers in other armies. Bearing in mind that the French have a Officer (OF 3) (adjutant de campe) as teh rough equivalent to a Regimental Sergeant Major in the British Army (OR 9). Americans have commented also that tasks in the US Army carried out by Officers are often carried out by Non Commsioned Ranks in the British Army.

It is the way things are. Bearing in mind some Scandanavian countries have a mere 3 enlisted ranks and 18 Officer ranks!!!!!

Pánzon
09-04-2007, 01:16 PM
Hello my friend,

I need a bit of time to elaborate and base what I say..... but I am in the first week into an induction course at my new job, so I can barely steal some time from study as they will evaluate us on Friday and if you do not pass........ no job.... and I need it as the air to breath.... there are many candidates as it is a good position.

I prommise I will elaborate.

Cheers,

BTW, when you mention the Argentine Navy, you say only 34 casualties..... I would like to respectfully remind you that only in the sinking of the "ARA Gral.Belgrano" the loss of life was I think exactly 323 death.... so there is something wrong there.

Anyway, I will be back.:)

Cheers,

Juan.

1000ydstare
09-04-2007, 01:24 PM
No dramas Juan, Hope you get the job.

The casualties listed are ground action only. Therefore the General Belgrano casualties have been removed.

I would point out at this point that these are statistics. More officers may have been killed if you group it all together but do these point to a particular trend?

On the ARA General Belgrano it may have been that more officers were killed as they attempted to keep her up. Bearing in mind that, again, she was crewed by a lot of conscripts.

I would add at this point, to indicate the dangers of statistics, in the Royal Navy there were 86 killed during the Falklands.... 14 of which were cooks, the highest percentage of any trade in the Royal Navy.

Is it automatic that they were in the forefront of any action? Some, undoubtedly were, as they would have formed damage control parties with the remainder of the none essential crew. Others were probably just cooking the egg banjos when the ship was hit and the gas to the cookers was still on. The Ships galley has the gas cut (at source) for just this reason during combat. To prevent the galley turning in to a crematorium.

Firefly
09-04-2007, 03:45 PM
Also, it is interesting to say that there was a considerable ammount of Argentine officers fallen in combat, a tremendous percentage...... that is to that people that say that the officers "hid" and only the soldiers fought....

Cheers,

Pánzon.

Is it possible that more were killed because the percentage of officers were higher due to the fact that more were needed to command conscripts?