Los Desaparecidos

[Cuts]

There has been much talk in various threads about the Dirty War in Argentina, and even how that might well have been extended to the Falklands had a few blokes not pitched up to hoof out the invaders.

With the advent of democratic government in the Argentine, many people have come forward with tales of abduction and torture at the hands of some of the lowlifes that took part in this war against their own people.

1000ydstare has already alluded to Captain Adolfo Scilingo (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0420-06.htm) and the despatching of live prisoners from Hercs in "The Air War" thread, but many more people had knowledge of these flights so where are they now ?

There must have been a fair number of civil servants involved to a lesser or greater degree, are any of them still working in the more enlightened system there ?


For the answers to these and many, many more questions tune into this thread on your favourite forum at the same time tomorrow.

[Firefly]

How is this relevant to the Falklands War though? Please demonstrate what the above post will bring to the discussions about this topic.

[Cuts]

How is this relevant to the Falklands War though? Please demonstrate what the above post will bring to the discussions about this topic.

I can't actually demonstrate what it will bring as I don't know what people will post, but talk of the Dirty War had been circulating around the world for some time prior to the Argentine invasion, and it would be astonishing if none of this had reached the Islanders' ears.

The thought of midnight knocks would have been reason enough for the FI population to have dreaded the spectre of living under the Junta, and their thoughts are very germane to the conflict.
At least one member of the invasion force had been involved in murders of civilians, were there really no more ?.

The other subject is how many of those not yet apprehended are still working within the present government, and will they, with their laudable pride in their country, ever reach a position whereby they can influence public and governmental opinion that another unfortunate conflict takes place ?

[1000ydstare]

It is quite relevant in one way, the fears of the Islanders, and possibley another reason why the boys were sent down quick sharp.

After all you can't leave murderous torture lovers roving over a captured land bent on mischief.

Likewise, these acts show (in a critical light that some may not approve of) the political beasts that moved within the countries head sheds.

No country would throw people out of the back of an airworthy aircraft sans parachutes would they? Just because they were a bit dodgy on the political front, and better off quiet.

Oh, there is a book about it....

http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Confess.../dp/1565840097

May read it, but it is likely to be simlar to Green Eyed Boys.

A few years ago an Argentine Naval officer (in the loosest possible terms) was sent down for 30 years although he should be going down for the full 640 years he was sentanced too.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0420-06.htm

More on another delightful creature here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Miguel_Cavallo

Whilst one was captured and sentanced in the old country (Spain), Ricardo was deported from Mexico to Spain for crimes in Argentina. Luckily for Ricardo, Argentina repealled a law that gave him and other murderers and torturers from the Dirty War immunity. Thus Spain handed him back for trial.

Does anyone (Ie Panzerknacker being from the country) know why the two laws, the Ley de Punto Final and Ley de Obediencia Debida, that had previously given immunity to individuals alleged to have committed crimes during the "Dirty War" were a. brought in in the first place, b. not cancelled earlier.

Given that the blood of some 20,000 +/- souls are on their hands, surely any nation would want them punished. It seems odd that they would be protected, likewise surely such immunity would encourage vigilante action.

WRT whether this was relevant I will also complete the article from LRO magazine that I was posting in the Landrovers thread. Mainly I stopped because I was busy. but

There was a quite terrorfing Argentine officer prowling around the Islands. The locals report he was from some Int unit (maybe he was from the Argentine Navies Mechanical School, which teaches Naval Mechanics and also has a small sideline as the centre for interrogation).

John Pole-Evans recalls: 'On May 1 1982, after the first raid by British Harrier jets on the islands's airstrip, the Argentines rounded up everyone in Goose Green. ALong with over 100 other people, we were locked up in the community centre while they took over houses and buildings.

'We had no idea how long they were going to keep us locked up, whether they were going to use us as hostages to try to get a deal with teh British or if they were going to shoot us. We just had to sit and wait. Some days we got a little bit of food and other days we got nothing. We slept on the floor in family groups in the hope that if some of us got hit with a shell we would all die as a family, not just a mixture of people.

'Conditions were terrible. All we had was a bucket for a toilet. After a while, we didn't see our Land Rover any more. We suspected it had been hit by one of the bombs or shells taht the British aircraft and ships were attacking the Argentines with.

John, his family and fellow prisoners spent a month in the community centre before they were liberated by the second battalion of the Parachute Regiment after the Battle of Goose Green on May 28.

[1000ydstare]

From later on in the same article.

Stephen (Stephen Luxton, current automotive manager at the Falkland Islands Company which imports Land Rovers to the islands) was aged just nine at teh time, but he can vividly remember the dramatic events of the spring 1982 unfolding...

'My father was a local politician and and very outspoken against the Argentines. As a result, he was on their "hit list" of undesireable to be dealt with.

'Our family were in Stanley at the time of the invasion, but we left as sson as possible afterwards - a 12-hour overland journey in our old Series II truck cab, followed by a night at Darwin settlement, then another overland journey to North Arm, where we took a boat across Falkland Sound to Fox Bay, then another three hours overland to our farm on West Falkland.

'But a few days after that the Argentines arrived by helicopter, arrested us and took us back into Stanley to question my father.

'I was scared because I could tell mum and dad were scared. The Argies flew us into Stanley in a helicoptor with the door open and I think dad thought he would get pushed out over Falkland Sound. But he didn't tell me that at the time!

'A few days later we were put on a plane and sent to Argentina, then deported to Uruguay frome where we made our way back to the UK and spent the rest of the war there.

[Lone Ranger]

It has some relevance.

1. One of the concerns of the British Government was how the islanders would be treated by the Argentines. If they did that to their own people how would they react to 2000 bloody-minded, obstinate Falkland Islanders?

2. I was reading some of the Islander's accounts of the occupation. Gerald Cheek was one of the islanders interned by the Argentines on West Falkland. When they came to arrest him, they told him his family didn't have to go. He was genuinely afraid that when they put him on the plane it was a one way trip and had to make the appalling decision to leave his loved ones behind, as he saw it, for their own safety. The reputation engendered by the "dirty war" is among the reasons many Islanders cite for the opposition to negotiations on sovereignty.

3. I would personally be interested to know from our Argentine colleagues what happened to some of the officers sent back by Comodoro Carlos Bloomer Reeve. One in particular I'm thinking of is Major Particio Dowling, who many Islanders regarded as epitomising the "Argentine Terror Machine" (quoting from one of the eye witness testimonies). Many consider that if it wasn't for the influence of decent officers like Comodoro Reeve the occupation could have turned unpleasant. I believe Dowling was implicated in the "Dirty War" as was Alfredo Astiz, the commander on South Georgia.

4. The Argentines had detailed personal dossiers on many of the Islanders, they deported many who they thought might be a problem. You have to wonder what they were prepared for, it does indicate that the Argentine military intended to exorcise political dissent on the islands.

[1000ydstare]

Some good info here

The islanders efforts to disrupt the Argentine rule
http://www.guardian.co.uk/falklands/story/0,11707,657857,00.html

The Observer's defence correspondent, Ian Mather intended to cover the Falklands War from the 'other side' - but was thrown in jail for its duration
http://www.guardian.co.uk/falklands/story/0,,2047324,00.html

Ex-Argentinian troops file Falklands lawsuit
A group of Argentinian veterans of the Falklands conflict have filed a lawsuit claiming their superiors killed and tortured their own troops during the 10-week war in 1982.

...

Conscripts returning to the mainland after Britain reclaimed the remote South Atlantic islands in June 1982 were warned by superiors not to reveal practices that took place or that their families could suffer.

"We believe the torture that took place in Las Malvinas (Falklands), the staking and similar actions by the military, were a continuation of what they practised in clandestine detention," Orlando Pascua, one of the claimants, told Página 12 newspaper (in Spanish).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/falklands/story/0,,2056933,00.html

'Nice Argies, Nasty Argies'

The Argentine who caused most fear was the "sinister and dangerous" head of military police intelligence, Major Patricio Dowling, who personified "the Argentine terror machine". He had detailed personal dossiers on Islanders and carried out arbitrary house searches and arrests. In one incident at Neil and Glenda Watson's Long Island Farm, Dowling pointed a weapon at their young daughter Lisa and repeatedly ordered her to stand up. Lisa repeatedly said no and continued sucking her thumb, until Dowling gave up.

Dowling was ordered home part way through the occupation by two "decent" senior Argentine officers. Comodoro Carlos Bloomer Reeve, described as "the acceptable face of Argentina", a man of "humanity and bravery" who did a great deal to protect Islanders from the excesses of their compatriots in what he regarded as a misguided adventure. He was amiable, always smiling, not politically driven, having previously lived with his family and made friends with Islanders in 1975/1976 when he ran the Argentine Air Force passenger service to the Falklands. His 1982 task was to organise an interim military administration, helped by naval Captain Barry Melbourne Hussey, "a man of humane principles" who worked to help Islanders.

Orders were that Islanders were to be regarded as Argentine citizens and treated well. In these two officers, Graham Bound writes, "Islanders had gained powerful friends who, though Argentines, proved that fundamental decency could survive when all other strands of civilised behaviour were unravelling."

From http://www.falklands.info/history/hist82article19.html

[1000ydstare]

And more

Imprisoned at Goose Green and Fox Bay

After air raids on Goose Green and Stanley, the Argentines forcibly imprisoned all Goose Green residents in the community hall - 115 people including 43 children and two people over eighty, at first with no food or bedding, and only two toilets. In breach of the Geneva Convention, they were kept in a building not marked as for civilian detainees and not provided with shelters against air and artillery bombardment. The prisoners lifted the floorboards to dig dank uncomfortable bunkers for safety as bombs and shells exploded.

They were not held as hostages but because the Argentines were paranoid about spies and fifth columnists. Convinced the prisoners were transmitting radio messages, the Argentines frequently carried out searches which no one escaped, not even four-month old Matthew McMullen. "They would look in his nappy while the watching adults hoped Matthew had a special surprise for them!" They got a message to the Catholic priest Monsignor Daniel Spraggon, who remonstrated with the Argentines to relieve their plight.

A group of Stanley citizens were suddenly rounded up to be incarcerated together at Fox Bay. These included Brian and Owen Summers, Gerald Cheek, Stuart Wallace, and George and Velma Malcolm, who describes her arrest with characteristic bluntness: "A big burly bumptious bugger said: "You're going to camp..... He had drawn his pistol and was standing over me. I said: 'You don't need that gun. I'm not likely to do anything silly.'" The book describes their experiences as "demeaning and terrifying".

Curfews, deportation and community spirit

"Shared dangers and self-help brought the community together. People who had bickered for years became firm friends." Compassion also extended to Argentine conscripts who were given food by Islanders.

There is a dramatic account of how three civilians - Sue Whitley, Doreen Bonner and Mary Goodwin - were killed and others injured in John Fowler's house by a misdirected British Naval shell from HMS Avenger.

Curfews were imposed and Bill Luxton - "the famous vitriolic critic of the Argentines" - and his family from Chartres were forcibly deported to Britain. A positive side effect was that Bill gave the British forces useful intelligence information and launched a worldwide information campaigned condemning the Argentines.

From the same site.

[Rising Sun*]

It has some relevance.
.....

4. The Argentines had detailed personal dossiers on many of the Islanders, they deported many who they thought might be a problem. You have to wonder what they were prepared for, it does indicate that the Argentine military intended to exorcise political dissent on the islands.

I think the topic has a lot of relevance, as much as the evils represented by Nazism do in evaluating Nazi expansionism and Allied responses to that expansionism and Nazi doctrine. Or substitute "fascist" or "Japanese militarist" or "repressive and brutal fascist dictatorship" for Nazi. Argentina in the 1970's falls into the last category.

During the 1970s Argentina lived a period of widespread military repression on the civilian population. Under the pretext of the "war against subversion" the military and police authorities develped a machiavellic campaign of terror. All civil rights - freedom of expression, justice, association vote - were eliminated. Thousands of citizens were unjustly put in prison where they endured inhuman conditions and lived under the pain of torture and the fear of death day to day.

Nothing is more horrorific, however, that what was done to 30,000 people now known as "the disappeared". Taken from their homes, blindfolded, beaten, they were taken to secret concentration camps, where they awaited, without knowing, amidst blows and torture, death.

In this page we will remember those responsible for the disappearances, for the torture and death of thousands of human beings. None of the responsible have been duly punished for their crimes. They live in freedom, enjoying all such things that they denied their victims.

As the Gallery grows we hope to highlight some of the worse human rights violators from Argentina. However, all those who collaborated with these people and the institutions they represented, with knowledge of what thdy did, have a moral responsability and a stain in their conscience and their hands that they will never be able to wash off.
http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/tort/eng.html

Also

http://www.yendor.com/vanished/
http://lacc.fiu.edu/events_outreach/fulbright/project_08.pdf

The dead killed by the Argentinian fascist regime that started the Falklands war aren't a dead issue for their mothers, who long maintained a vigil in the Plaza de Mayo in Buenos Aires.

http://z.about.com/d/gosouthamerica/1/0/l/J/11494262madresplazamayo.jpg

http://www.schnews.org.uk/sotw/images_sotw/arge-mothers.jpg

These and related issues sit squarely in any consideration of the Falklands War as it was shortly after that War that Argentina reverted to democracy and Galtieri was subsequently charged with human rights offences relating to the Dirty War as well as mismanaging the war, the latter charge seeing him serve five years in prison.

As the Dirty War and the Falklands War were clearly linked in Argentinian minds after the Falklands War, there is every reason to link them in discussion here.

[1000ydstare]

On the subject of the mothers of the lost...

A quick synopis of the laws that were brought in to protect the murderers...

Ley de Punto Final (Full Stop Law) was passed by the National Congress of Argentina after the end of the military dictatorship of the Proceso de Reorganización Nacional (which ended in 1983).

The law dictates the end of investigation and prosecution against people accused of political violence during the dictatorship, up to the restoration of democratic rule on 10 December 1983. It was passed on 24 December 1986, after only a 3-week debate. Its text is very short; it has seven articles.

Article No. 5 excepts from the application of the law the cases of identity forgery and forced disappearance of minors.

It was proposed by the Radical administration of President Raúl Alfonsín as a means to stop the escalation of trials against military and others, after the Trial of the Juntas had dealt with the top of the military hierarchies.

In the Chamber of Deputies, 114 deputies voted for the law, 17 against, and 2 abstained; in the Senate, 25 senators voted for, and 10 against.

Given the nature of the law, it's apparent reason for proposal the support is quite shocking.

It's brother law is Ley de Obediencia Debida (Law of Due Obedience) also passed by the National Congress of Argentina after the end of the military dictatorship.

The law was passed on 4 June 1987.

It states that it must be assumed, without admitting proof to the contrary, that all officers and their subordinates including common personnel of the Armed Forces, the Police, the Penitentiary Service and other security agencies cannot be legally punished by crimes committed during the dictatorship as they were acting out of due obedience, that is, obeying orders from their superiors (in this case, the heads of the military government, who had already been tried in the Trial of the Juntas).

This law was passed one year after the Ley de Punto Final in order to contain the discontent of the Armed Forces.

It effectively exempted military personnel under the rank of Colonel from responsibility for their crimes, which included forced disappearances, illegal detentions, torture and murders.

Its text is rather short, with only 7 articles, the second of which contains an exception (the law does not apply to cases of rape, disappearance or identity forgery of minors, or extensive appropriation of real estate).

The Ley de Obediencia Debida and the Ley de Punto Final were repealed by the National Congress in August 2003, which allowed for the re-opening of cases that involved crimes against humanity.

The first of such cases, which involved the former Buenos Aires Provincial Police second-in-command Miguel Etchecolatz, ended in September 2006 and laid down jurisprudence by acknowledging that the dictatorship's state terrorism was a form of genocide.

Also Spain extradited some of the Murderers that they were holding for trial, as mentioned else where.

I bet the Nazis at Nuremburg kicked themselves they hadn't thought of the Law of Due Obedience.

It is worth noting too Most of the top officers who were tried were sentenced to life imprisonment: Jorge Rafael Videla, Emilio Eduardo Massera, Roberto Eduardo Viola, Armando Lambruschini, Raúl Agosti, Rubén Graffigna, Leopoldo Galtieri, Jorge Anaya and Basilio Lami Dozo. But President Carlos Menem then pardoned the leaders of the junta in 1989–1990.

The only pardon I would give them would be checking someone had said what I thought they had said, suggesting they should be free.

Following persistent activism by the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo and other associations, the amnesty laws were overturned by the Argentine Supreme Court nearly twenty years later, in June 2005.

As we can see Argentina is a strange political climate with many dark secrets and bizarre laws. How the UN haven't got involved in sorting the Dirty War out is remarkable.

[Firefly]

OK, I'm convinced here. Thanks for the explanations, however please keep your 'Dirty War' posts and theme within the context of how this had an impact on the Falklands War and the personalities involved.

Cheers.

[Rising Sun*]

I bet the Nazis at Nuremburg kicked themselves they hadn't thought of the Law of Due Obedience.


They did.

It was the "I was only following orders." defence, commonly called the Nuremberg defence.

It was rejected by the court.

As it should have been, and generally has been since. Including when Lieutenant Calley offered it to justify his My Lai massacre.

[1000ydstare]

The Nuremberg defence wasn't an actual law though.

I was under the impression that this law would be highly suspect and possibly even illegal in it's self.

Good to see international cooperation on such matters though. Those suspected of the "dirty War" crimes were all but prisoners in their own country. When they left to visit Spain they were arrested, even Mexico deported a visiter to Spain for trial.

It is just remarkable that such laws could be passed in Argentina. And that the guilty persons responsible (ultimately) for these actions and of course the Falklands invasion/debacle were later pardoned.

[Rising Sun*]

The Nuremberg defence wasn't an actual law though.



I see your point.

Although even if the Nazis had passed such a law during their regime, I expect that it would have been held invalid, or overturned, or otherwise nullified at Nuremberg.

The Argentinians got away with it because, unlike the Nazis, they were never subjected to higher authority.

It's not area I know anything about, but if such a matter came before the International Criminal Court would it be able to ignore domestic law for the purpose of deciding a war crimes or cimes against humanity matter?

[Panzerknacker]

How is this relevant to the Falklands War though? Please demonstrate what the above post will bring to the discussions about this topic.


There is no relationship whatsoever Firefly.

The so called "dirty war" started in 1970-71, it was a conflict between the Argentine Army and Navy security services (the AAF dint participate) and was fought against two major factions.

One was the marxist E.R.P (Ejercito Revolucionario del Pueblo, peoples revolutionary Army) and the Peronist leftist catholic (complicated ideology isnt ?) Montoneros and his supporters.

The E.R.P was more or less crushed by the year of 1977, Montoneros in other hand survived longer because the leftist peronist ideology sucedeed to attract a big part of the youth upper classes of the big cities.

Obviously as everybody know not only those were kidnapped and/or tortured and/or killed, but also several inocent people.

However since this sad war did not took place in the Falklands/Malvinas it should not be included here.

My suggestion is to move all this to Off-topic Military and/or merge with "The Argentine Military" topic.

[Dani]

My suggestion is to move all this to Off-topic Military.

Seconded on this one.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Done..........this one doesnt really fit into the F&M section.

[Cuts]

The relevance of this thread to the F/M forum has been made immensely clear in eight of the first nine posts on page one !

Moving, or worse yet merging it, would lend credence to any germ of an idea that the invasion was 'benign' or that the Dirty War would not follow into any area over which the Junta had infuence.

Most sources indicate that the Dirty War ended in 1983, some even pinpointing it to 10 Dec 83, when the democratic government led by Raul Alfonsin took charge of Argentina. If my memory serves, the Falklands conflict* started on 02 Apr 1982 and ended with the surrender of the Junta-controlled Argentine forces some 43 days later on 14 Jul 1982, ie well within the consensus timeframe.

That there were few midnight knocks between the morning of the invasion until the liberation in no way detracts from the very real fears held by the Islanders', that the Junta would continue it's Gestapo-style tactics in the FI.
It was due in no little part to offrs such as Comodoro Carlos Felipe Bloomer-Reeve and Captain Barry Melbourne Hussey, that the worst elements of the Junta's hit squads were unable to go about their business as normal. But how long would that state of affairs lasted had there been a different outcome to the war ?

Perhaps a more accurate title would be in order ?


But no matter, these decisions are taken in the rarified heights, it is not for mere peóns like myself to judge.



* If the start of the war is taken from the main invasion. Should the short occupation of South Georgia be included then the date would be 19 Mar 82 - even deeper within the time-span of the Dirty War.

[Gen. Sandworm]

It aint moving! Feel free to continue the thread. ;)

[Cuts]

Qed

;)

[Panzerknacker]

The first Desaparecido:

http://www.todo-argentina.net/historia/civmil/levingston/aramburu.gif

Pedro Eugenio Aramburu Cilveti (May 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_21), 1903 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903) – June 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_1), 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970)) was a de facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto) president of Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) from November 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_13), 1955 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) to May 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1), 1958 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958). He was kidnapped, "judged" and executed by the Montoneros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montoneros) guerrilla organization (the most extreme sector from the Peronism), in retaliation against the June 1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=June_1956&action=edit) Leon Suarez massacre and the execution of Juan José Valle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Jos%C3%A9_Valle).
Born in Río Cuarto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_Cuarto), Córdoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba_Province%2C_Argentina), he was one of the biggest exponents of the military sectors of 20th century Argentine society. His historical relevance was heightened by the fact that he confronted one of the biggest populist leaders in South America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America): Juan Domingo Perón (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Domingo_Per%C3%B3n).

He studied in the Colegio Militar de la Nación
1922: Sub-lieutenant
1939: Major
1943: Teacher in the Escuela de Guerra
1951: Brigadier
Director of the Escuela de Guerra
1955: Chief Commander of the Army
1958: Lieutenant general.
After the first presidential succession (1958), Aramburu retired from military career and became part of Argentinian political life.
Then he ran for president in the elections of 1963, forming the political party "Union del Pueblo Argentino" (UDELPA, Union of the Argentine People), with an explicit slogan: "Vote UDELPA and HE won't return" ("Vote UDELPA y no vuelve"), referring to Perón.
With Peronism prohibited, the Presidential elections proclaimed Arturo Umberto Illia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_Umberto_Illia) as the new president, with the team of Pedro Eugenio Aramburu–Horacio Thedy winning only third place.
Yet democracy was under military supervision, which maintained censorship of both Peronism and its leader. As a consequence of the fragile nature of the democratic process, Illia was quickly overthrown in 1966 by another military coup, led by General Juan Carlos Onganía (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_Ongan%C3%ADa).
In all those 15 years, Pedro Eugenio Aramburu maintained a type of popularity, in newspapers and magazines. He was often consulted about his opinions on society and politics (especially in to the Gente magazine, representative of the high society of Argentina).
In 1970, he was even mentioned (again) as a possible Presidential successor.
Montoneros

In 1970 the rumours regarding Juan Domingo Perón (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Domingo_Per%C3%B3n)'s return to Argentina grew daily. Still living in exile in Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), his orders resonated stronger and stronger. At the same time, leftist ideologies grew in Argentina as in much of South America. The example of Che Guevara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Guevara) influenced a generation of students in schools and universities that widely supported international socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism).
It was in this atmosphere that the Montoneros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montoneros), led by Mario Alberto Firmenich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Firmenich) were formed.
It is possible that the Montoneros would not have had much social relevance had they not chosen such a resounding terrorist action, planning their first act of terror in the social-political life of Argentina. Their ambitious plan was the kidnapping and execution of former military president Pedro Eugenio Aramburu.
Death of Aramburu

On May 29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_29), 1970 at noon, Aramburu was boldly kidnapped from the streets of Buenos Aires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires). The disappearance of Aramburu kept the whole Argentinian society on tenterhooks for a month, before discovering that Aramburu had been murdered 3 days after his kidnapping, and that his corpse was left in a farm of the town of Timote, Carlos Tejedor, in the Buenos Aires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires_Province).
In the following months, official statements of the Montoneros flooded the media. Among other things they alleged historical reasons for their actions such as "the execution of 27 Peronist leaders after an unsuccessful Peronist rebellion in 1956", known as the José León Suárez massacre.

[Rising Sun*]

I take it from Panzerknacker's last post that the Dirty War had nothing to do with the Disappeared, as the guerillas took all of them, starting with Aramburu.

There's a slight problem with that approach.

His body was found a month after being kidnapped.

The other Disappeared haven't been found a quarter of a century later, which adds to the uncertainty and suffering of their loved ones.

I fail to see the point of presenting him as the first Disappeared.

[Panzerknacker]

The kidnapping of Aramburu is oftenly marked as the beginning of the dirty war, after this the people start to vanish and get killed from both ( big accent in both) sides of the table.

After this the Army and Navy security services began the secret ( and not so secret ) war.

[Rising Sun*]

The kidnapping of Aramburu is oftenly marked as the beginning of the dirty war, after this the people start to vanish and get killed from both ( big accent in both) sides of the table.

After this the Army and Navy security services began the secret ( and not so secret ) war.

Sorry.

I didn't know that.

Sometimes being a smartarse results in being bitten in one's own arse. :(

[1000ydstare]

Unfortunatly RS, the "government" side had a penchant for throwing their "kidnappees" out of the back of low, or not so low flying Hercules. Usually over the South Atlantic. The chances of finding such victims is slim.

Regardless of who started it, the "Dirty War" waged by the Junta/Argentine government was completely and utterly wrong.

Two wrongs do NOT and will NEVER make a right.

I will concentrate on the government issues for now, whilst I brush up on the other side, but certainly the "dissappeared" would often include the family of the actual target. All would be liquidated after torture. Including children.

I beleive some of the children have reappeared in foster homes with little or no memory of their parents, particularly if they were babies when taken.

The Islanders of the Falklands, haveing lived in the area, would have been all to aware of what was happening on the mainland, esp because of the former good will and trade between the two. I am sure they were delighted that Mr Dowling and his bullies turned up with their list of undesirables... strange how most peoples lists of undesirables would probably include those thugs.

I find it strange that you have one group fighting for justice yet the very government who came in AFTER the junta has taken such public steps to defend them, even parden those convicted of crimes of such baseness.

[Panzerknacker]

I will concentrate on the government issues for now, whilst I brush up on the other side, but certainly the "dissappeared" would often include the family of the actual target. All would be liquidated after torture. Including children.

That is just one more of your usual lies about everything related with the Argentine military, none children was killed during the dirty war, the guerrillas fighters sons were adopted by the Military families or gave in adoption to other civilian parents.

[1000ydstare]

Now now Panzerknacker, we don't want to get childish again.

I have stated that children were killed although I also point out that children were adopted out to other families.

So, my evidence.

World Briefing | Americas: Argentina: For 'Dirty War' Children
Published: March 13, 2004
Argentina will compensate children who were detained, stolen or born in captivity during the military dictatorship that ruled the country from 1976 to 1983, President Néstor Kirchner said. He asked them to forgive the state. The children stand to receive up to $75,000 each.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05E1DF1E3EF930A25750C0A9629C8B 63

If they are compensating the children, then they accept the responsibility.

Relatives of the victims uncovered evidence that some children taken from their mothers soon after birth were being raised as the adopted children of military men, as in the case of Silvia Quintela. For three decades, the Grand-Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, a group founded in 1977, has been demanding the return of these kidnapped children, estimated to number as many as five hundred. 77 of the kidnapped children have been located so far.

I am guessing you can not 100% prove that none of the remaining 423 kids (+/-) were killed in captivity?

Alicia Partnoy (b. 1955 in Bahía Blanca, Argentina) is an human rights activist, poet, and translator.

After Argentinian President Juan Peron died, the students from the left of the Peronist political party organized with fervor within the country's universities and with workers, were persecuted and imprisoned. There was a military coup in 1976 and people began to disappear.Partnoy was one of those who suffered through the ordeals of becoming a political prisoner. Partnoy became an activist of the Peronist Youth Movement while attending Southern National University.

She was taken from her home and her two-year old daughter on January 12, 1977, by the Army and imprisoned at a concentration camp named The Little School (La Escuelita). For three and a half months, Partnoy was blindfolded. She was brutally beaten, starved, molested, and forced to live in inhumane conditions. She was moved from the concentration camp to the prison of Villa Floresta in Bahía Blanca where she stayed for six months only to be transferred to another jail. She spent a total of two and a half years as a prisoner of conscience, with no charges.

In 1979, she was forced to leave the country and moved to the USA where she was reunited with her daughter and her husband. In 1985, she told her story of what had happened to her at The Little School. The world began to open its eyes to the treatment of women in reference to the disappearances of Latin America.

Alicia Partnoy has testified before the United Nations, the Organization of American States, Amnesty International, and the Argentine Human Rights Commission. Her testimony is recorded in a compilation of testimonials by the National Commission for the Investigation of the Disappeared. She currently lives in Los Angeles, C.A. and teaches at Loyola Marymount University.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Partnoy"

Delightful, or am I lieing again about your Armed Services, I actually know the distinction between the thugs who carried out these atrocities, those who serve with professionalism and those who were forced to serve and beaten by those who fall in to the thug group first mentioned.



The security forces dragged away pregnant women. They kidnapped entire families and then tortured them in front of each other. People were taken from wheelchairs and hospital beds. One young woman was abducted while recovering from a serious operation on her spine and was encased in plaster from the waist to the knee. Hundreds of adolescents disappeared, and even the elderly and the very young were taken away. After their parents were disappeared, children were left with neighbors or left alone in their homes. The less fortunate were placed in detention centers for the children of the disappeared, in the custody of the Women's Brigade of the provincial police. Those who had physical disabilities were murdered or left to perish.
http://www.iisg.nl/collections/dirtywar.php

Now given the treatment detailed above by Alicia Partnoy, how many of the pregnant womens children would have survived? Or would they have been miscarried? Almost definitly affected medically in some way by such treatment of their carrier (ie the Mother).

Or do you not classify them as children so that you can call ME a liar?

Also the "hundreds of adolescents" who disappeared, where are they? Now I am of the opinion that an adolescent is roughly a teenager, although the age brackets can shift depending on the culture involved. Argentina, in my opinion, could be grouped in to the same culture as the USA, thus adolescence is between 12 - 19 years old.

I am guessing that a 12 year old would not have been given out to some Junta crony for good behaviour, so where are these children?

[1000ydstare]

The following is from Amnisty International


AI Index: AMR 13/018/2002 1 December 2002
AMR 13/018/2002
ARGENTINA

The Rights of the Child in Argentina

Text of the submission by Amnesty International on its concerns regarding the Argentine Government’s application of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child

Deaths of Children
Cases of deaths of children caused by members of the security forces in situations known as gatillo fácil, "trigger happy", and in so-called confrontations may constitute extrajudicial executions. Children who are prepared to testify about incidents in which those apparently involved are members of the police have been the victims of reprisals including threats and death. Most of the information about these situations in the country has come from the media and, in the absence of official information from federal and most provincial authorities, non-governmental organizations have set up databases based on press reports or official complaints submitted by lawyers acting for the families. According to information provided by non-governmental organizations, during the first half of 200l 30% of killings by members of the police in so-called confrontations were of children. Among the little official data available for the year 2001, a report from the Ministry of Security for the Province of Buenos Aires showed that, as of 15 December 2001, a total of 33 children had died in so-called confrontations with the police.

A little off topic I know, as this is about kids being brassed up in 2000 onwards, not the 1970's/'80s

Alberto Barreto, whose 12-year-old daughter Gisella Barreto was killed in a police shooting in January 2000, has reportedly also been threatened and harassed by the police, and has been followed by a police patrol car on numerous occasions.

I would ask Panzerknacker, that you do not call me a liar, and accuse me of trying to get cheap points over your military on such a matter.

You will find, whilst I am prepared to banter all nations forces, including my own. When it comes to genocide I don't have much of a sense of humour.

Something a few tours of the Balkans sorted out I am afraid. You may notice in my postings I tend to have more of a vitoral for those who are nothing more than bullies and thugs.

I will concede, however, that my post indicates that ALL of those taken for interrogation/torture were killed. This is not the case, and I apologise for posting what I know to be not the case.

Although, there is no need on YOUR part Panzerknacer to get all uppity about it. Your nations military did it, full stop. You even point it out in your post above, that it was your Army and Navy and not your Air Force that participated in such evil. There are no excuses nor reasoning to get away from it.

If you wish to establish equalibrium feel free to bring up any things that the British have done over the years that are as bad.

PS. If the kitchen is too hot, stay out of it.

[Panzerknacker]

You ve posted this. Dont blame me.


All would be liquidated after torture. Including children.



The other part is true but I would not comment the the links that have provided of Amnesty for 2 reasons.

1- Those did not belong to the topic discussed here. You as usual want to derail the topic.

2- Amnesty is a very politically charged institution, just look at any other every nation reviewed by Amnesty like UK, and USA, you ll see.



I find it strange that you have one group fighting for justice yet the very government who came in AFTER the junta has taken such public steps to defend them, even parden those convicted of crimes of such baseness.


And again you failed here.:rolleyes:

The goverment who came after the Junta jugded and convicted mostly of the Upper officers in charge of the illegal war between 1976-80.

That was the U.C.R party who rules the country between 12-1983 until 16-1989.

The goverment after this from the Peronist party gave a full pardon to some of the Military and guerrila involved in th year 1991.


It was not the same goverment.


Man ...do some research before posting I am tired to correct you.

[1000ydstare]

Panzerknacker, in my post I have already admitted that that particular quote of mine was off target. So your bringing it back up achieves nothing other than to assuage or own delusions and sanctimosity.

WRT to your second quote, sorry it is you that is wrong. I didn't know which party was in or out, and quite frankly didn't care. The government I was referring to was not a specific government, as you mistakenly believe, but the government in general. ie the system of government that replaced the Junta system of government.

It is puzzleing that such brutes and thugs could be released by a democratic government after they had been convicted of such charges.

Man... I am sick to the back teeth of you not actually reading what is wrote/meant. Please ask for clarification in future if you require it.

[Panzerknacker]

Panzerknacker, in my post I have already admitted that that particular quote of mine was off target. So your bringing it back up achieves nothing other than to assuage or own delusions and sanctimosity.


Edit your post and I will edit the mine.



WRT to your second quote, sorry it is you that is wrong. I didn't know which party was in or out, and quite frankly didn't care.

If you dont know and dot care ...what you posting about this ?, just give this space to someone who did know and care

The government I was referring to was not a specific government, as you mistakenly believe, but the government in general. ie the system of government that replaced the Junta system of government.

Every political party have own agenda.



Man... I am sick to the back teeth of you not actually reading what is wrote/meant. Please ask for clarification in future if you require it.


I do always and I will.

[1000ydstare]

Nope, not editing, the post stands with my explaination afterwards. There is no need to go around editing posts to mean what they no longer mean, or to erase the past for no real reason.

WRT not caring which party was in power, that is the point. The reference was to your countries government(s) after the Junta. To that end all of the specifics, ie their agenda, allegiances etc are irrelevant.

Whilst in some things the colour of hte party in power could be seen as important, ie in UK would a Labour government (Left of Centre) have faced down the miners strike as the Conservatives (Right of Centre) did? Would the UK Communist Party (Extreme Left) have handled it differently? What about the British National Party (Extreme Right)?

In this instance, I beleive the actions of the government, the specific party in power or not, transcend such pettyness.

The countries government allowed murderers and thugs to be protected by two of the strangest laws in the world, that fly against common sense and descency. Not only did they bring these laws in, though, they also then pardoned the few criminals they had convicted.

Under most systems of government there should be some sort of point where, if there is a fair minded and sensible incumbant, such laws can be stopped.

[Panzerknacker]

The countries government allowed murderers and thugs to be protected by two of the strangest laws in the world, that fly against common sense and descency. Not only did they bring these laws in, though, they also then pardoned the few criminals they had convicted.



Two were actually convicted to life imprisomente, Videla facto president between 1976-81 and the commander of the navy in the same period who teorically have some goverment prerrogatives , Massera.

But the last word ids not said.

Videla briefly returned to prison in 1998 when a judge found him guilty of kidnapping of minors during the Dirty War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War).

On September 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_6), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006), Judge Norberto Oyarbide ruled that the pardon granted by Menem was unconstitutional, opening up the possibility of a trial. On April 25, 2007, a federal court struck down his presidential pardon and restored his human rights abuse convictions

To be completely honest the average citizen like me is not particulary worried about those guys, they did not present any treath to the country anymore.

Unfortunately many times the desaparecidos and assasinated people of of the Police, Army and Navy are completely forgotten, quite unfair. The families of the guerrillas fighter will have always the best part of the media coverage.

I would give the credit to Videla in having succeed to erradicated the 90 % of a Guerrilla who want to made a separated country like in Colombia...but he probably could do the same without so many inoccent victims.

[1000ydstare]

Whilst your average citizen are not worried by these guys, the country as a whole should be ensuring that these creatures are banged up and punished. If you don't, then history could repet itself.

Hence the rules in Germany and Austria which make it illegal to deny the Holocaust, if the Holocaust or dirty war is allowed to be denied or in some how altered it could happen again.

[Rising Sun*]

To be completely honest the average citizen like me is not particulary worried about those guys, they did not present any treath to the country anymore.

Neither did Eichmann present a threat to Jews any more when, instructively, he was kidnapped by Israel from his sanctuary in Argentina. He still deserved to be brought to account for his crimes.

Don't you want people who committed crimes against your own citizens in the Dirty War, or any other event, brought to justice?

It beats me how you, and in your opinion Argentinians in general, can be so relaxed about not bringing to justice people who abused their power to kill your own citizens.

I am not saying this to be insulting, but I think your views reflect those of a people who have no experience of consistent and well-founded democratic government, and the principles of liberty and justice which underpin it. A nation with a recent history of violence and repressive government which denies liberty and justice to its people gets used to such abuses. They see small advances as large steps, when still they are a long way from achieving the same standards as people in more robust and established democracies.

I think also that the blindness to justice of Argentinians reflected by your views explains why you can be so determined to screw over the Falkland Islanders who have observed much better standards of government and justice than would have been, and seemingly still would be, imposed upon them under Argentinian rule. And why you are incapable of grasping the simple principle, so glaringly clear to anyone in the Western world, that the Falkland Islanders should be permitted to determine their own destiny.

[Gen. Sandworm]

I am not saying this to be insulting, but I think your views reflect those of a people who have no experience of consistent and well-founded democratic government, and the principles of liberty and justice which underpin it. A nation with a recent history of violence and repressive government which denies liberty and justice to its people gets used to such abuses. They see small advances as large steps, when still they are a long way from achieving the same standards as people in more robust and established democracies.


Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt it after the F&M conflict that Argentina really became a Democracy? Point is they are still a very young one and with all things it takes time to adjust.

[Panzerknacker]

The democracy In Argentina really started in 1883 with the universal vote act. It was interrupted in 1930 and other times.


It beats me how you, and in your opinion Argentinians in general, can be so relaxed about not bringing to justice people who abused their power to kill your own citizens.



Many people think that they acted properly eliminating the leftist, that may explain . It was the guerrilla who attacked first the military and no otherwise.:rolleyes:

[Gen. Sandworm]

The democracy In Argentina really started in 1883 with the universal vote act. It was interrupted in 1930 and other times.


Hate to go to off topic but the Modern Democracy you have today was formed after the conflict????? You can just PM me with the answer if you wish!

[Panzerknacker]

I dont fully understand your question, if you are asking if the real democracy began in 1983 the aswer is no. The real democracy was present before in Argentina but was interrupted several times.

[1000ydstare]

He means that the democracy that you live in today was only brought in after 1982. It probably doesn't mirror the democracy of 1833 exactly, there will be some changes.

Likewise, the citizens will be different due to all the periods of non-democracy.

Many people think that they acted properly eliminating the leftist, that may explain . It was the guerrilla who attacked first the military and no otherwise.

Whilst the actions of the leftists was completely wrong and should have been countered, I somehow don't beleive the manner in which the operations were conducted was correct.

WHo attacked who is irrelevant.

[Panzerknacker]

You mean 1883.

And no is not the same, the women werent alllowed to vote in 1883, but they did so in 1948, so more or less is the same as in that year.

Whilst the actions of the leftists was completely wrong and should have been countered, I somehow don't beleive the manner in which the operations were conducted was correct.


Well, obviously not. Those actions were not entirely correct since many people wich have nothing to do with Montoneros or the ERP were killed/arrested.

[Cuts]

Whilst the actions of the leftists was completely wrong and should have been countered, I somehow don't beleive the manner in which the operations were conducted was correct.

Well, obviously not. Those actions were not entirely correct since many people wich have nothing to do with Montoneros or the ERP were killed/arrested.My bold.


"Not entirely correct" ?
So taking people away from their homes then torturing/murdering them was a partially correct way of carrying on ?
Or only if the victims had had something* to do with the Montoneros or ERP ?




* eg. they had been seen with, or were related to known or alleged members of these groups.

[Panzerknacker]

If those are REAL terrorist I have no problem. I think Israel have a law wich allowed the torture if the enemy is fanatic.

[Rising Sun*]

But this is foolish, the 35 000 dead figure you ve posted when actually were 9800 desapeared and killed in the dirty war, and a important number were not civilians but guerrilla fighters.

I guess that killing just 9,800, and only some of them not combatants, makes it alright then. Such a callous pro-Galtieri Dirty War era opinion certainly goes a long way to explaining your selective approach to this and other topics concerning the Falkands.

I find it most curious that you want to make a big issue out of a British soldier killing a mortally wounded Argetinian while you laugh off explanations about why it was a mericiful act but, when posts turn to comparisons with far, far worse Argentinian behaviour towards their own people you casually dismiss the killing by your army of 9,800 of your own people. And when comparisons turn to Argentinian behaviour towards your own troops, such as starving them to death and murdering them, you choose not to respond, which suggests either that you think it satisfactory or cannot justify it.

Should I infer from your contradictory positions on human rights that the Argentinian troops on the Falklands should be grateful that only some of them were starved and murdered by their own system and superiors, while the British soldier who did the burnt Argentinian soldier a favour is an inhuman brute unfit to meet the high moral standards of the Argentinian military?

Or should I infer that the one Argentinian soldier mercifully killed by the British soldier is worth considerably more than 9,800 of his countrymen killed by the same army, as their deaths don’t seem to cause you any concern. Any more than the Argentinian soldiers starved to death and murdered by their own Army seem to be worth a response from you.

You really need to take a few steps back and try to look at your position objectively.

[Panzerknacker]

@Panzerknacker. Interesting, most human rights organisation put the figures of the number of people murdered much, much higher. For example on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War) the figure quoted is 30,000.


I only post this because you've disputed the figures I quoted. I believe I'm entitled to a riposte, removing this would be an abuse of Moderator powers.

Now the figures I quote from are from organisations independent of both Argentina and the UK. Why would you only be prepared to accept "official" figures posted by the Argentine Government? Also interesting was the way you provided the excuse that most were guerillas. Does that make the murder of innocent civilians for having the wrong politics acceptable?

The CO.NA.DE.P who was the comission who investigate about the human rights abuse was formed with people who really was in the other corner politically speaking from the Military. They carry out a long and exhaustive investigation.

So..if those people reach the 9800 of killed it must be true. It does not mean that the number of kidnapped of tortured could reach 30.000 or more but is the deaths that we are talking about.

I am have not to excuse since I am not the people who pull the trigger but if you asking me if I had or I would have any mercy with the guerrilla of Montoneros, the terrorist of E.R.P and Patria Libre , the answers is simple, no I wont because I have no simpathies with the people who want to make my beautiful country in the new Cuba or in country inside other like happen in Colombia.

I will stand up and applaude the Argentine Army for saving us of that bunch of scum.

However no, to eliminate that menace does not justify the murder of inocent people.


Excuse me by why need you to increase the victims of WAR in several times?To present the Argentinian army is the herd of monsters and killers?

Cheers.

Dont get tired Chevan :rolleyes: , let them believe wathever they like, if somebody want to believe that the Argentine army killed 35000 inocent civilian or 50000 or even better 250000 they can do it, if that make happy and bring confort to their little souls go for it...happiness is something hard to found in this days.

But I recomend that people please dont post that figures as a fact. thanks.

[Chevan]

Panzerknacker constantly makes the point that Argentina owns the Falklands by ancient title. Argentina has been a republic for some 170 or so years. That’s a lot older than the various nations created and extinguished and altered in Europe over the same period. Germany didn’t even look like existing when Argentina declared its independence from Spain. Also, Argentina was occupied by Spain previously and derives its military traditions from Spain, which was a mature European monarchy at all relevant times, and a superpower for much of that time. Argentina is not a young country, nor are the sources of its military traditions young.

Well i can agree with you but....
I think you should agree that the Argentina is not the equal the Britain. The Argentinian social development is was far from the European in the 1970-80. This is the fact. And the situation inside the Argentina in 1976 when junta had come to the power is rather different from the European condition.
At that tme the social crisis in Argentine could bury the any democratu if the comunists or ultra-right nationalists took the power - in this case the scale i strongly doubt the victims were limited of 9 000 ( or even 30 000) . As you may be know both commi and nazy are not capable to kill the thousands - they OLNY killed a MILLIONS. ( as we know it from history ,right;))
Thus in this way the cruel action of Junta in 1976-1983 possibly saved the Argentin from the much more terrible civil catastrophe.

At the time of the Falklands war the Argentinian army was just different to Britain’s, in five main ways. First, the army was an extension of a military dictatorship. Second, the way their army treated their own civilians. Third, they way they treated their own soldiers. Fourth, they way they conducted the war. Fifth, the way they treated civilians in occupied territory.

I think the mean difference of behavoiur was that it was CIVIL wa for the Argentinian army (not for the Britain).
And let i tell you a litlle about about "own civilians" that were treated by the Argentinian army.

http://www.conflictologist.narod.ru/arg70.html
Genesis and the ideology of rebels.
In 1970 two main and most known Argentinean revolutionary organizations were formed. 28.7.70 was formed PRA - People's revolutionary Army, headed by Roberto Santuchcho Mario, that posed the problem of throwing down servicemen, then who led the country, itself military branch RPW (revolutionary party of workers), created in 60th YERP and PRT they inspired including by ideas of Peruvian Marxist de la Torr, that joined the Trotskij's 4 international. This insurgent motion was connected with Cuba.
Rebels in 1976-82 years.
During March 1976 Of Izabel Peron it was thrown down by military junta headed by General Jorge Videla. Even after death of Peron YERP it calculated by necessary to switch over to guerrilla warfare "on nature", having an intention to create the freed zones in the village. So that the separation of the responsibilities was formed in them with another antigovernment organization: in the cities against the authorities acted "montoneros", in the rural locality - YERP. Task in them was not of the light: at the moment of the beginning of the authorities of junta the army had authorized strength of 85 thousand, plus of 33 thousand seamen and marines, 17 thousand Airforces, 19 thousand police. YERP in its base region in the province Of Tukuman could attack by forces with size from 30 to 120 people, seize the small towns, where police stations usually were destroyed, the offensive figures of local life were shot and propaganda materials were extended. It is asserted that YERP gave out the expropriated money to local residents. Forces YERP also penetrated in the province of Cordova and Santa -Fe, where they were connected with the local small forces for conducting the actions. The largest battle of Argentinean insurgent war was the offensive of government army in Tukumana region, in what participated more than 8000 of special forces.
According to plan "operation Independent" was intended to satiate the territory of three departments, where were located the bases of rebels, by troops, to block withdrawal routes to the north, to strengthen pressing and in the hour assigned to isolate rebels from the population and the mountain mountain ridges, following how to destroy. It was assumed that following the utter defeat the rebels will lose will to the fight. In February- April 1975 was conducted the first offensive, in summer and in autumn - the second, during February 1976 decisive operations. The first stages of plan are undertaken even with I.Peron (for which it in 2007 they was going to summon), the latter with the junta. Servicemen reported about the destruction of approximately 350 rebels. According to official data in servicemen from December 1974 through May 1976 in the region perished 46 people. Those be outstandinging were rewarded with the specially founded medal for the participation in the operation. "Montoneros" those acted, as it was spoken, in the cities, dictatorships were noted in the period in essence by explosions, in particular, exploded the supply service of the federal police and killed her chief, and itself Videla on the chance passed violence, after finishing speech for the minutes earlier than bomb under the platform detonated.
On 23 December, 1975, however, rebels refuted rumors about sudden death of motion, connected forces "montoneros" and YERP completed mass attack on the military aims in Buenos Aires region; 130 members YERP attacked arsenal in the suburb of the capital, and 170 more other military targets. Attack was repelled, perished 85 rebels, of them 56 in the course it was combat in arsenal; 7 servicemen even 10 civil also perished. Specifically, in the course of this attack rebels blew up one of the submarines of Argentinean NAvy. However, insurgent motion has already been located in the stage of the decrease, not lastly because of the cruelty of servicemen and the ventured by them Dirty war .

As i know the so called civilians were tied with the famouse international terrorist Che Gervara who prepeared the some of terrorists groupes in Argentine.
So i think this is a big question who were the treated peoples the "civilians" or not?;)
The close relation of the rebels with the extremal ultra-communist ideology ( Trockij and Gevara) that in fact used the bloody terrorists methods for its political purposes do not let them as the "Argentinians own people", right?

But I’d better not get into any of those things or I might poison this thread, so I’ll just content myself with saying that armies run by military dictatorships have a rather worse history of misconduct compared with armies run by healthy democracies. .
My dear friend althoug i/m agree with you ( i should be the extremist not to agree , but i/m not )
But as could we see from the histroy sometimes ( and regulary) the so called "healthy democracies armies" commite the even more worst think then the its enemy.
look for instance for the crime commited by the UN forces toward the korean population in 1950-53 ( Chuncin massacre and ets) or during the Vietnam war ( My Lai Massacre) or during the batlle of Faluji. This fact do not let us to agree with your point finaly.
Althoug... sure you right here ... at least the democratic mass media has a much more abbilities to protect of action of thier own armies in comparition with non-democratic states, i/e they much stronger in "information war" .
And as we saw from the Iraq the so called "democratic" mass media could simply lie if it get the profit and justify of actions of its gov.( famouse MDW in Iraq).

Cheers.

[Panzerknacker]

A court in Argentina has convicted a former Roman Catholic police chaplain of collaborating in murders during the country's military rule.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44166000/jpg/_44166929_wernichcuffsafp203b.jpg

Von Wernich showed no emotion as he was sentenced.


Christian Friedrich Von Wernich, 69, was convicted for involvement in seven murders, 42 abductions and 31 cases of torture during the 1976-83 "Dirty War".
Survivors say he passed information he obtained from prisoners to the police.
As he was sentenced, Father Von Wernich showed no emotion. Protesters torched his effigy outside the court.
The trial in the town of La Plata, 60km (35 miles) south of Buenos Aires, had lasted for three months.
Father Von Wernich initially avoided prosecution by moving to Chile, where he worked as a priest under a false name.
However, he was eventually tracked down by investigators and extradited to Argentina in 2003 when amnesty laws passed at the end of military rule were declared unconstitutional.
Participant
At the trial, several former prisoners said the former Roman Catholic priest used his office to win their trust before passing information to police torturers and killers in secret detention centres.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif False testimony is of the devil, because he is responsible for malice and is the father of evil and lies http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Christian Von Wernich

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Q&A: Argentina's grim past (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4173895.stm)


They say he attended several torture sessions and absolved the police of blame, telling them they were doing God's work.
"Von Wernich participated assiduously and maintained direct contacts with the detainees," the prosecution said in its indictment.
Father Von Wernich's lawyers said the case against him had more doubts than certainties and that he had been obliged to visit police detention centres as part of his duties.
The priest said he had never violated the prohibition against revealing information obtained in the sacrament of confession and accused those torture victims who gave evidence in court of being influenced by the devil.
"False testimony is of the devil, because he is responsible for malice and is the father of evil and lies," he said.
Outrage
Once the judge announced the sentence, observers inside the courthouse erupted with relief and jubilation. Outside, crowds cheered and set off fireworks.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44166000/jpg/_44166932_wernichverdictap203b.jpg

Human rights activists and former prisoners celebrated the verdict

"It's a historic day, a wonderful day... it's something we mothers didn't think we'd live to see," said Tati Almeyda, a member of the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, a group of women seeking their sons and daughters who disappeared under military rule. "Justice has been done. The Catholic Church was an accomplice," she told the Reuters news agency. The BBC's Daniel Schweimler in Buenos Aires says Father Von Wernich's actions caused particular outrage in Argentina because he had abused the trust that believers placed in him


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7035294.stm





Is funny how the jugdes are so tempted to be inline with the modern fashionable policies, a ordinary criminal who kills someone gets 25 years and maybe less than that, but a priest who never touched a person and probably gave some consolation in his final moments get life.

quite good justice we have.

[1000ydstare]

Er, Panzerknacker, did you actually read that article?

He may not have got his hands dirty, and actually killed or physically tortured.

But he did (he has been convicted of it, so it is no longer alledged).

Pass on information he was given by prisoners. As a Preist he was probably trusted by the prisoners. Did he pass info on that was given to him in confidence ie Confessionals? Or just info that was passed to him?

It also states that he "won the prisoners trust". This can be achieved in many ways, you send in the goons to beat the prisoner, then Father of Mercy here walks in and says leave him alone, and tends to any injuries and comforts the prisoners. He becomes their saviour and they tell him things. Or he just brings tit bits in, like sweets or shares his "dinner" with them. And is all pastoral.

Then, like most innocents do, he fled the country to Chile and got a new name. He also absolved the torturers and killers of their guilt, so maybe this was the reason for his fleeing.

No one seems to have got up and said he didn't like what was going on in the torture centres though?

If he is guilty of the crimes mentioned, he is WORSE than the bullies and thugs. He is a priest, a man of god and a trusted member of society by his very uniform if not his persona.

Torching effigees in the street? They should be torching him.

[Rising Sun*]

If he is guilty of the crimes mentioned, he is WORSE than the bullies and thugs. He is a priest, a man of god and a trusted member of society by his very uniform if not his persona.

Torching effigees in the street? They should be torching him.

Exactly.

I didn't think it was possible, but he makes paedophile priests (but not Catholic bishops) look better in comparison. At least they betrayed their office because they were sickos rather than politically motivated mongrels.

So much for the separation of church and state.

That bit about him working as a priest under a false name in Chile is either bullshit or, given the history of the Catholic Church, more proabably an indictment of the diocese he worked for in Chile.

Priests work for dioceses, i.e Church units run by bishops, and only with the permission of the diocese they're leaving and the diocese they're going to.

A priest can't just walk out of his diocese and turn up in another diocese. Bishops have to agree to the transfer.

Priests moving to another diocese have to have, in effect, papers. Just like someone in the military who moves to a new unit, whose transfer and history is verifiable from their papers.

The story about working in Chile under an assumed name is convincing only if you accept that, for example, Major Smith of the Coldstream Guards could turn up and serve in the Black Watch as Major Jones, without any papers for Major Jones' history.

What arrant twaddle!

[Panzerknacker]

Probably 10 or 15 years imprisoment as a supporter of the regime would suit best.By the way lately in Argentina the thugs and bullies are in the outside of courthouses... in trials like this.

[1000ydstare]

Maybe so about the thugs outside, but then many are nurseing a great many wrongs that have been done to them.

WOuld you be understanding that your son or brother or father was killed by some thug in a junta prison?

I wouldn't be. I would want his killers head on a rather long pole.

As for 15 years, why so short? Will his victims spring back to life after a certain period of time? Or will their mental wounds heal?

[Panzerknacker]

Los desaparecidos...according to "The Simpsons" :D :D

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=GM11jn2DV24

[Panzerknacker]

As like the Right to wear weapon did not prevented Argentinian Junta to genocide your own people just 25 years back.


Well, I think it work in both ways, the lack of that right also made things easy to Stalin when he caused "genocide" ( honestly i dont like the word) in millions of russians, ukranians, and so.:rolleyes:

and by teh way, genocide is word that does not apply to that situation and can used only by a stupid bonehead like you, that show you dont know anything about it.

[Cuts]

Hello again, back after a wee trip.
Often an enforced absence can be very refreshing, one can meet the most interesting people.
The somewhat limited access to the internet has been used in other directions, but now I have a more regular service I shall attempt to catch up with things.


I don't know why I didn't mention this before, must have been particularly busy:

Many people think that they acted properly eliminating the leftist, that may explain .

A slack handful of questions:

#01. Many people think this do they ?
#02. Would 'many' indicate a majority of the population ?
#03. Where did these people get their information from ?
#04. Are you one of these people ?
#05. Were they all victims of leftist terrorism ?

It was the guerrilla who attacked first the military and no otherwise.:rolleyes:

#06. Are you sure about this ?

[Nickdfresh]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/argentine-man-kills-himself-on-tv/1951199288/?icid=VIDURVNWS02

[Panzerknacker]

Often an enforced absence can be very refreshing


Definately, you absence here was very refreshing to everybody.

slack handful of questions:

#01. Many people think this do they ?

Yes.

#02. Would 'many' indicate a majority of the population ?


Not the majority but I would say the 30 to 40 percent of the population. In the people with more than 40-45 years old mostly.

A common joke in the mid 1980s and early 1990s when in colombia the situation was also chaotic, "...maybe they need Videla"

#03. Where did these people get their information from ?

The information comes from the fact that the chaotic situation wich affected argentina since the late 1960s ended suddenly in 1977-78.

The fact that E.R.P ( Troskist) , Montoneros ( extreme left peronism), Patria Libre ( communist), Movimiento de Monte Ramon Rosa Gimenez ( communist) and other terrorist and guerrilla were completely destroyed, his components killed, and most of the non combatants supporters captured or forced to leave the country by early 1978.

#04. Are you one of these people ?


Porbably I am, I think the Army was forced to get the hands "dirty", however I think they commited several mistakes.

For example:

a) Use of excesive force in non combative supporters, probably with long improment sentences they would be okay.

b) Use of excesive force in Human rights activist, they did specially in rural areas, unfortunately the Army was extremely annoyed by the liason of the so called "human rights activist" with teh guerrilla, in some cases with accuracy because that people hidden suspected terrorist, a conduct wich was ( and is) completely inacceptable.

c) Permanence in the power for too long, there was no need to stay in power beyond 1980, I guess the Generals liked the Rivadavia seat ( presidential couch) too much.

d) Malvinas War , you dont go to war with the Uk without a good preparation.

e) Economic management of the country, wich is logical because they were not prepared to deal that area and emplaced some civilians wich didnt made it.


#05. Were they all victims of leftist terrorism ?

Probably no most of them , but they were mature people when the terrorism nearly devastated the country in early 1970s, the murder, the weapons robbery, bombing of police station and assasination of its officers and kidnapping were common in the big cities.