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american sniper
07-25-2005, 10:27 AM
my bro was asking me how many germans did he kill and i could not answer him so could some one give me the number of germans killed by this man

Sturmtruppen
07-25-2005, 10:57 AM
http://www.notesofasniper.com/
that web is good

Firefly
07-25-2005, 11:00 AM
Ok, Soviet propaganda comes into play, but it was somewhere between 142 and 222 at Stalingrad and close to 400 by wars end.

http://www.snipersparadise.com/history/vasili.htm

Hanz Lutz
07-25-2005, 11:31 AM
400 :shock: o man he killd battalion . :shock:

Sturmtruppen
07-25-2005, 01:59 PM
Ok, Soviet propaganda comes into play, but it was somewhere between 142 and 222 at Stalingrad and close to 400 by wars end.

http://www.snipersparadise.com/history/vasili.htm
good find firefly! :)

american sniper
07-25-2005, 08:55 PM
wow i did not thank he killed that many well thanks now i can tell me bro

Dani
07-26-2005, 01:47 AM
According to http://www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm#WWII, WW2 top twenty looks like:

Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Simo Hayha W.W. II Finland 542
Ivan Sidorenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 500
Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 496
Kulbertinov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 487
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 456
Mikhail Budenkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 437
Fyodor Matveevich Okhlopkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 429
Fyodor Djachenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 425
Vasilij Ivanovich Golosov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 422
Afanasy Gordienko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 417
Stepan Petrenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 412
Sulo Kolkka W.W. II Finland 400+
Erwin Konig W.W. II Germany 400
Vasili Zaitsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 400
Semen D. Nomokonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 367
Abdukhani Idrisov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 349
Philipp Yakovlevich Rubaho W.W. II U.S.S.R. 346
Matthäus Hetzenauer W.W. II Germany 345
Victor Ivanovich Medvedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 331
E. Nicolaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 324

Hanz Lutz
07-26-2005, 04:43 AM
Major Erwin Konig the best German sniper killed in Stallingad by Vasilli Zaitcev.

Dani
07-26-2005, 04:49 AM
Major Erwin Konig the best German sniper killed in Stallingad by Vasilli Zaitcev.

This is a typically Hollywood story (Enemy at the gates).

It is unsure that the character Erwin Konig exists.
Check http://www.snipercentral.com/konig.htm

Edited for typos :oops: :oops:

Hanz Lutz
07-26-2005, 05:13 AM
No i read a book Memoars of Soviet generals I.V.Cujkov who been commander in 64th Soviet army and i read that in Battle for Stallingrad .

Dani
07-26-2005, 05:17 AM
You forced me to copy and paste :D :D
Quoted:
Thorvald and/or Konig
There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.
End quote.
:D

Hanz Lutz
07-26-2005, 05:41 AM
Now I am confused and I don't know nothing . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dani
07-26-2005, 05:49 AM
Now I am confused and I don't know nothing . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: It's good anytime to find more sources (I'd say reliable sources) before a final conclusion of yourself!!
Remember mate, that during our lives we still learning!! :lol: :lol:

Hanz Lutz
07-26-2005, 05:55 AM
yes you are in right all our lives we still learning but why soviet general in your book lies.

Dani
07-26-2005, 06:06 AM
Ok, Soviet propaganda comes into play...

I'm afraid that Firefly answered already :D

Hanz Lutz
07-26-2005, 07:11 AM
Ok that book is writen 1960 ,that year is on book . :lol: :lol:

Sturmtruppen
07-26-2005, 07:50 AM
:cry: erwin was a fake,and im erwin too

Dani
07-26-2005, 07:52 AM
:cry: erwin was a fake,and im erwin too
It is still a debate.... :lol: :lol:

Edited: Not that you are a fake! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hanz Lutz
07-26-2005, 11:33 AM
Koning is fake . :lol:

Commando Jordovski
07-29-2005, 09:32 AM
Really major Konig isnt real?, so there wasn't a sniper battle for days on end? :shock:
Well in the movie "enemy at the gates" they made vassili *jude Law* to look and be really heroic with a sheila and all his mates, but I dont know anything about the real Vassili Zaitsev....only that he was a sniper in stalingrad and he likes to repeat "I need a rifle" :lol:

Hanz Lutz
07-29-2005, 10:19 AM
And I don't know much about Vassili .

Hosenfield
07-29-2005, 04:31 PM
have you seen the "enemy at the gates movie" its laughably bad.

the real zeitzev is no jude law...

Commando Jordovski
07-29-2005, 10:22 PM
Jude Law needs to stick to making movies like "Hitch" and even though i havent seen it i reckon its rubbish :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hanz Lutz
07-30-2005, 03:47 AM
In movie all about Vassili is lie ,but when soldiers ratake Read Squer in Stallingrad if they want to retreat soviet shut them NKVD your army killing you that's very sad.

Commando Jordovski
07-31-2005, 08:51 AM
True my good friend :)
but the russians did kill the retreated soldiers, thats a fact.

Hanz Lutz
07-31-2005, 10:43 AM
If they retreated that's means then they canot win ,but stalin dont want to heard that ,Stalins words to not retreat do not one step back.Crazy man :lol: :lol:

Commando Jordovski
07-31-2005, 08:51 PM
:) Well it would be more appropriate and sensible if the Russians when they retreated to regroup and charge again and not get slaughtered by their owne officers.
Though Stalin was just trying to inflict fear into the russians so they try their hardest to kill the germans and if they fail, they suffere the consenquences by getting shot anyway.

Hosenfield
08-01-2005, 02:51 AM
the suicide charge was usually reserved as a punishment for penal battalions in russia. not for regular russian troops.

Commando Jordovski
08-01-2005, 03:53 AM
conscripted civilians of the Soviet Union Right ?

StalingradK
08-01-2005, 03:59 AM
It's most likely propoganda but who knows? That's propoganda for you, doing its duty once again :evil:

Panzerknacker
10-28-2005, 11:24 PM
Neither Erwin Koenig or the guy that Zaitsev call "Untersturmfürher Heinz Thorvald" actually exist.

Yes Zaitsev killed more than 200 german soldiers, some snipers included, but the so called Stalingrad duel never took place.

The best german Scharfschützen ( sharpshooter= sniper) was obergefreiter Mattheus Hetzenauer, with 345 confirmed kills who fought in the East front since 1943 and survived the war.

Revolver
11-09-2005, 11:50 PM
The story of Vasily Zaitsez vs. Major Heinz Thorvald (or Konig) has been widely argued over. Did an actual confrontation occur between them? Did Vasily Zaitsez even exist at all or was he just part of Russian propaganda during the Battle of Stalingrad? I personally think that it Zaitsez did indeed exist, but the sniper duel didn't.

Dani
11-10-2005, 02:35 AM
http://www.snipercentral.com/konig.htm

Charles
11-10-2005, 10:02 AM
Some info there


Edited by Dani: link removed since the threads were merged.

Hanz Lutz
11-10-2005, 11:36 AM
He is exist for sure meybe he didnt kill so many axis soldiers but he is exist.

Check the vasilli zaitsev thread here :D

bas
11-10-2005, 03:52 PM
I personally think that it Zaitsez did indeed exist, but the sniper duel didn't.

Have you actually done any research on this? It is an established fact that Zaitsev fought in Stalingrad.

The debate is not weither or not Zaitsev exsisted or not, but about the sniper duel between him and some German "super sniper".

Sturmfuhrer
12-28-2005, 08:24 AM
True my good friend :)
but the russians did kill the retreated soldiers, thats a fact.

What kind of fact? You seen it in a film? Read in schoolbook?

There is famous order 227 called "Not a step back" in which everything is written. So called "barrier units" were used as military police and were located in several kilometers from the front, guarding crossroads, seaching for deserters, spyies and checking documents. They could shoot only in case of resistance, all arrested should be delivered to investigator.
If don`t believe documents, i can send you lots of soldier memories in which they say that no one shoot at them while retreat.

To Hosenfield:

[/quote]the suicide charge was usually reserved as a punishment for penal battalions in russia. not for regular russian troops.


The same situation with penal battalions. There were no barrier units after them. And I suppose that it will be new for you, penal battalions consisted only from officers and penal company (Rota) consisted from sergant and private. Commanders in penalty units were normal army officers that took part in action as well as penalted soldiers. To leave penalty unit you had to:
1. stay for 3 months
2. arrange heroic deed
3. "pay blood" (as ussial any small wound would be enough)
4. death
After one leave penalty unit he was restored in rank, all his decorations returned but against orders as usual decreased in place (for officers).

Jon725
12-30-2005, 07:26 AM
well maybe it wasnt that russians shot soldiers who were retreating...

didnt all armies fire on their soldiers if they refused to do orders in combat and were going to run away?

anyway, in cases were there were orders to retreat, of course soldiers wont be fired upon by thier own officers.

but... of course i dont have too much to back up my theory besides some movies, and stories.

Man of Stoat
12-30-2005, 08:38 AM
Yes, the Russians did shoot soldiers retreating without orders out-of-hand.

iBelt
01-09-2006, 10:49 PM
Funny thread you have here guys. :)

I decided to check out the forum after looking through the photos, and I just couldn't resist to reply to this thread! I am russian myself (born near Leningrad in 1978). Many of my relatives suffered during the Great Patriotic War, that war is very well remembered here.

I've seen the movie 'Enemy at the gates' - it is full of bullshit, I just laughed most of the time while watching that crap. It has nothing to do with reality. NKVD officer shooting own troops with machine gun.. hahaha.

NKVD stands for "People's Comission for Internal Affairs" - they were hunting criminals and deserters. "Zagradotryad" (barrier unit), according to famous Order #227 was supposed to be formed behind "unstable" divisions (3-5 units of 200 well armed soldiers for every division), their were supposed to shoot deserters (among other duties). The term "shoot" is poor translation of russian "rasstrel", which actually means "execution through shooting" (after a tribunal!). Those barrier units were assigned to Special Departments of NKVD and had NKVD officers in command, who performed tribunals. The function is the same as Military Police in US Army or Feldgendarmerie in Wehrmacht.

Soldier deserted with his weapon received certain death sentence, others were returned back to the army (privates and sergeants to the penalty company, officers to the penalty batallion).

Penalty batallions ("Shtrafbat") were formed of degraded officers of regular army, not conscripts. Those officers were fighting like normal soldiers, trying to restore their status. They were regular russian troops, period.

Zselic
02-04-2006, 03:20 PM
my bro was asking me how many germans did he kill and i could not answer him so could some one give me the number of germans killed by this man

hi all, i'm writing from Hungary. If i know well, Vasili killed 40 germans in the first 10 days, and he and his companion killed 1200 germans at all

Ace
02-20-2006, 03:03 PM
Zaitsev's kills were not just Germans in the Wehrmacht, but also other Axis armies. His score is 32 with the ordinary Mosin Nagant 91/30, 225 with a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle at the Battle of Stalingrad, and a total of 400 with a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle during the entire war.

Sturmfuhrer
03-03-2006, 04:54 AM
well maybe it wasnt that russians shot soldiers who were retreating...

didnt all armies fire on their soldiers if they refused to do orders in combat and were going to run away?

anyway, in cases were there were orders to retreat, of course soldiers wont be fired upon by thier own officers.

but... of course i dont have too much to back up my theory besides some movies, and stories.

Sorry, pal, I don`t really know how it goes in "all armies". but in soviet (and russian) army killing soldier without investigation and sentence is a serious crime (including WW2). And an officer who committed such a crime should have been sentenced to death penalty or, more likely, sentenced to several months in penalty battalion.
Surely, such cases of "lynch law" happened but they were put in practice by certain comanders of the units during the fight. But it didn't reffer to NKVD and was illigal.

Sturmfuhrer
03-03-2006, 05:18 AM
Yes, the Russians did shoot soldiers retreating without orders out-of-hand.

Pls exchange sources of your knowledge.

Man of Stoat
03-03-2006, 08:01 AM
Yes, the Russians did shoot soldiers retreating without orders out-of-hand.

Pls exchange sources of your knowledge.

A quick Google reveals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesNKVD.htm
http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/Russian-M44-Carbine.asp
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425715/

Civil war use of blocking units:

http://www.search.com/reference/Leon_Trotsky

Man of Stoat
03-03-2006, 08:04 AM
Sorry, pal, I don`t really know how it goes in "all armies". but in soviet (and russian) army killing soldier without investigation and sentence is a serious crime (including WW2). And an officer who committed such a crime should have been sentenced to death penalty or, more likely, sentenced to several months in penalty battalion.
Surely, such cases of "lynch law" happened but they were put in practice by certain comanders of the units during the fight. But it didn't reffer to NKVD and was illigal.

And we all know what Soviet "due process" was like :roll: , particularly in Stalin's era

Dani
03-03-2006, 09:22 AM
Yes, the Russians did shoot soldiers retreating without orders out-of-hand.

Pls exchange sources of your knowledge.

A quick Google reveals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops


...and a quick copy and paste ( :D ) from the first site cited by MoS reveals as sources:

Органы государственной безопасности СССР в Великой Отечественной войне. Сборник документов,
Том 1. Книга 1. Накануне, Издательство "Книга и бизнес", (1995) ISBN 5-212-00804-2
Том 1. Книга 2. Накануне, Издательство "Книга и бизнес", (1995) ISBN 5-212-00805-0
Том 2. Книга 1. Начало, Издательство "Русь" (2000) ISBN 5-8090-0006-1
Том 2. Книга 2. Начало, Издательство "Русь" (2000) ISBN 5-8090-0007-X
Том 3. Книга 1. Крушение "Блицкрига", Издательство: Русь, 2003, ISBN 5-8090-0009-6
Том 3. Книга 2. От обороны к наступлению, Издательство: Русь, 2003, ISBN 5-8090-0021-5

orcthesorc
03-03-2006, 05:01 PM
An American made a film named ''Enemy at the gate'' its all a big lie that the russian officers killed their own soldiers....But when i firstly watch the video i shocked with these scenes and began to search if its true!? OFCOURSE NOT!

Yeah! Have u ever watch ''midnight express'' which is about turk prisons made by americans!?

OFCOURSE ITS NOT TRUE TOO!!

Every country has own heroes..im giving respect to all of them!!!

CDN3RD_Canadian
03-28-2006, 09:31 AM
400 kills, imagine going to bed with that on your mind everynight.

Hiddenrug
04-29-2006, 02:32 AM
There are many flaws in Enemy at The Gates.
1. Where were the gates?
2. Vassili is not from England
3. One of his mates ( the guy with the silver teeth) Was actually an escaped gorrilla from The Dutch Zoo.
4. That sex scene took 4 mins and i think 34 seconds. No one has ever screwed up that fast!!
5. If you notice in the movie ( do this its funny ) Vassili Zeitsev ( jude law ) has at least 2 testipops in the movie!

This is a humourous side. DON"T TAKE IT TO HEART!

Vassili was a hero!

Chevan
04-29-2006, 05:28 PM
Whatewer somebody talk on this forum, Vasiliy Zaitsev was the real sniper in the Red Army.
He was born 23 march 1915 in te countryside Eleno in South Ural. From 1936 he served in the navy.
In september 1942 Vasiliy come in Stalingrag with 284 infantry division.
http://www.aif.ru/data/mags/aif/1317/pics/63_01_00.jpg
About month he fight with simple rifle, but soon politruk 284 division Ivan Grigorjev in first time wrote report about his accuracy. The sniper rifle for Vasiliy presented personally general Chyikov- the commander of deffence the Stalingrad. Since that both great man bacame good friends.
Duel between major Kenig(anothe source call him as Heinz Thorvalds) and Vasiliy was actually happend. But russian sniper was not alone. He had some asistents, like his mate Nikolai Kulikov. Togethe they were abolished Kenig

http://www.chrab.chel.su/archive/04-02-06/1/A124925.JPG
In january 1943 Zaitsev was serioslu wound. In hospital he knew that he bacame "Hero of SU". Later he came back to Chyikov and continued fight. He finished war in 1945 near the Dnestr river.
After the WW2 he bacame komendant of Pechors area of Kiev. There he merried with Zinaida Sergeevna.
Vasiliy bacame Honor Citizen of Volgograd (Stalingrad). Even in 75 yers old he was excellent shooter.
His wafe told about interesting event when Vasiliy Zaitsev wisited DDR after the war. During meeting with germans in hall got up women and said that she's daughter of major Kanig. Then and there Zaitsev was sent off hall and soon he come back to the SU, becouse soviet headquarters fear for his life.
In 1991 Vasilij Grigorjevich Zaitsev was dead.
http://www.aif.ru/data/mags/aif/1317/pics/63_01_01.jpg
According his testament in 2006 his remains were re-buried in Mamaev's hill in Volgograd beside his companion-in arms.
http://www.gkasparov.com/images/materials/43E1CFD11B4A0.jpg
It's impossibly count how many germains was killed by sniper Zaitsev. Different sours call from 245 to over 300, but in anycase Vasiliy is one of the most great sniper of the world. Not even WW2.
Sourses:
http://www.aif.ru/online/aif/1317/63_01
About film "Enemy at the gate"
http://www.kpnemo.ru/other/2005/10/04/pamyat_serdtsa_protiv_vraga_u_vorot/

George Eller
04-29-2006, 05:35 PM
-

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6114/vasiliyzaitsev010kt.jpg
Out of Nowhere: A History of the Military Sniper, Martin Pegler, Osprey, 2004, p 171
-

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/3180/vasiliyzaitsev024uh.jpg
The Military Sniper Since 1914, Martin Pegler, Osprey, 2001, p 23
-

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4002/vasiliyzaitsev039jt.jpg
The Military Sniper Since 1914, Martin Pegler, Osprey, 2001, p 24
-

Best Little Stories From World War II,C. Brian Kelly,Montpelier Publishing, ISBN 0-9624875-0-3, Seventh Printing 1996, pp 99-103
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9506/vasiliyzaitsev048lz.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/402/vasiliyzaitsev050ed.jpg

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9067/vasiliyzaitsev063ky.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/5122/vasiliyzaitsev074iy.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/5181/vasiliyzaitsev086lc.jpg

NOTE:

"some Soviet sources claimed that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school, Major Heinz Thorvald to assassinate Zaitsev...Thorvald character's name was changed to Major König."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassili_Zaitsev
-

If you have seen the movie, you will notice differences from the account above.

-


rich45
Good article on Russian Snipers
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?showtopic=4989

"Already Russian newspapers had made the name Vasiliy Zaitsev famous.
In but ten days' time he had killed nearly forty Germans, and correspondents
gloatingly,wrote of his amazing ability to destroy his enemies with a single
bullet. It was a skill he had learned while shooting deer in the forests around
Elininski, his home in the Ural Mountain foothills. A shepherd in the summers,
Zaitsev, at the age of fifteen, went off to technical school in Magnitogorsk.
On September 20, 1942, the broad-faced Zaitsev came to Stalingrad with the
284th Division. Now he was a national hero, and as his fame spread across
no-man's-land, the Germans took an inordinate interest in him.
SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald was dispatched to Stalingrad from Berlin for the express
purpose of eliminating top Soviet snipers, especially Vassily Zaitsev, who was
being lionized in Soviet propaganda. The Soviets were tipped off to Thorwald
mission by a prisoner. Like Zaitsev, Thorwald first made a careful study of the
terrain and of his victims before attempting a kill. When two Soviet snipers
were killed by single rifle shots, Zaitsev began counter-stalking Thorwald himself.
The duel lasted for several days. During this time Thorwald shot a
political officer named Danilov who was "covering" the duel for Soviet
propaganda (Danilov accompanied Zaitsev and stupidly gave away their
position). Zaitsev finally got Thorwald by offering another sniper, his
assistant Zulikov, as bait. Zulikov positioned himself and lifted his
helmet over a wall, where Thorwald put a bullet through it.
Kulikov cried out as if hit. Thorwald made the fatal mistake of exposing
himself to confirm the kill, and Zaitsev shot him dead.


Next lines are taken from Antony Beevor's Stalingrad, The fateful siege : 1942 - 1943.

The telescopic sight of his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured
trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic
story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely
no mention of it in any reports.*

*Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in
the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated
on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda.


Other snipers at Stalingrad.


Vasiliy Zaitsev W.W. II Russia about 400 kills
(149 Kills at the battle of Stalingrad, some sources telling me he shot 232 German soldiers
at Stalingrad)

A sniper reaching forty kills would receive the "for bravery" and the title of
"Nobel Sniper".
The highest scorer only identified as "Zikan" killed 224 Germans by 20 November 1942.
Sergeant Passar of 21st Army was credited with 103 kills.
Kucherenko, an Ukrainian, killed 19.
An Uzbek from 169th Rifle Division killed five Germans in three days.
Anatoly Chekov killed 17 Germans in two days !
Corporal Studentov killed 170 Germans.
"Noble Sniper" Ilin, a commissar from a Guards rifle regiment, was credited
with 185 kills.


Sniper V. Kozlov, just being decorated
for his 30th kill.

The same Zaitsev - Thorwald story :

The ruins of Stalingrad were the natrual habitat of snipers, and each army had its recognized
champions. For the Russians, Vasily Zaitsev was the onetime shepherd who had perfected his
marksmanship hunting deer in the Ural foothills. In one ten day period, he had killed no fewer
than 40 Germans and his fame had spread into enemy lines. The Germans retaliated by flying
to the scene SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald, head of their snipers' school near Berlin. Zaitsev
soon heard talk of the deadly Thorwald, and he set down a tense account of their dual to
the death.

"The arrival of the Nazi sniper set us a new task," wrote Zaitsev. "We had to find him, study
habits and methods, and patiently await the moment for one, and only one, well-aimed shot."

For two days, Zaitsev stalked his rival, trying to locate his precise whereabouts. On the third
day, Zaitsev was accompanied in his search by a political instructor named Danilov. As the
two lay hidden, peering intently through their telescopic sights, Danilov suddenly said: "There
he is! I'll point him out to you!" Recalled Zaitsev: "He barely, literally for one second,
but carelessly, raised himself above the parapet, but that was enough for the German to
hit and wound him.

"For a long time I examined the enemy positions, but could not detect his hiding place.
To the left was a tank, out of action, and on the right was a pillbox. Where was he?
In the tank? No, an experienced sniper would not take up position there. In the pillbox,
perhaps? Not there, either - the embrasure was closed. Between the tank and the pillbox,
on a stretch of level ground, lay a sheet of iron and a small pile of broken bricks. It had
been lying there a long time and we had grown accustomed to its being there. I put myself
in the enemy's position and thought - where better for a sniper? One had only to make a
firing slit under the sheet of metal, and then creep up to it during the night."

To test his theory, Zaitsev rasied a small plank with a mitten attached to its end. A shot
rang out and a bullet smashed into the plank. "Now," wrote Zaitsev, "came the question of
luring even a part of his head into my sights." Before that could be done, however, Zaitsev
would have to change his own position, which had clearly been marked by the German.
Zaitsev and a fellow sniper, Nikolai Kulikov, spent much fo the night working their way
to a new vantage point. By dawn they were ready.

"The sun rose," Zaitsev recalled. "We had decided to spend the morning waiting, as we
might have been given away by the sun on our telescopic sights. After lunch our rifles
were in the shade and the sun was shining directly on the German's position. At the
edge of the sheet of metal something was glittering: an odd bit of glass - or telescopic
sights? Kulikov carefully, as only the most experienced can do, began to raise his helmet.
The German fired. For a fraction of a second Kulikov rose and screamed. The German
believed he had finally got the Soviet sniper he had been hunting for four days,and half
raised his head from beneath the sheet of metal. That was what I had been banking on.

"I took careful aim. The German's head fell back, and the telescopic sights of his rifle
lay motionless, glistening in the sun until night fell." Russian sources credited Vasily
Zaitsev with killing 149 (232 ?) Germans before the end of the battle of Stalingrad. Then he
was blinded by a detonating land mine."
-

SEE ALSO:

http://216.198.255.120/russianpart/russnipers.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassili_Zaitsev

http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?showtopic=4989

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_(computer_game)

-

Auke
04-30-2006, 01:37 PM
For the last time, the sniper duel did not take place... It's a myth... Fiction...

George Eller
04-30-2006, 04:36 PM
-


For the last time, the sniper duel did not take place... It's a myth... Fiction...
-

I posted the story (real or fiction) because it had not previously been included in this thread and to contrast it to the version seen in the movie. However, I also included other opinions on the subject as well - including that the story may have been a fabrication for propaganda purposes.


-


rich45
Good article on Russian Snipers
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?showtopic=4989

"Already Russian newspapers had made the name Vasiliy Zaitsev famous.
In but ten days' time he had killed nearly forty Germans, and correspondents
gloatingly,wrote of his amazing ability to destroy his enemies with a single
bullet. It was a skill he had learned while shooting deer in the forests around
Elininski, his home in the Ural Mountain foothills. A shepherd in the summers,
Zaitsev, at the age of fifteen, went off to technical school in Magnitogorsk.
On September 20, 1942, the broad-faced Zaitsev came to Stalingrad with the
284th Division. Now he was a national hero, and as his fame spread across
no-man's-land, the Germans took an inordinate interest in him.
SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald was dispatched to Stalingrad from Berlin for the express
purpose of eliminating top Soviet snipers, especially Vassily Zaitsev, who was
being lionized in Soviet propaganda. The Soviets were tipped off to Thorwald
mission by a prisoner. Like Zaitsev, Thorwald first made a careful study of the
terrain and of his victims before attempting a kill. When two Soviet snipers
were killed by single rifle shots, Zaitsev began counter-stalking Thorwald himself.
The duel lasted for several days. During this time Thorwald shot a
political officer named Danilov who was "covering" the duel for Soviet
propaganda (Danilov accompanied Zaitsev and stupidly gave away their
position). Zaitsev finally got Thorwald by offering another sniper, his
assistant Zulikov, as bait. Zulikov positioned himself and lifted his
helmet over a wall, where Thorwald put a bullet through it.
Kulikov cried out as if hit. Thorwald made the fatal mistake of exposing
himself to confirm the kill, and Zaitsev shot him dead.


Next lines are taken from Antony Beevor's Stalingrad, The fateful siege : 1942 - 1943.

The telescopic sight of his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured
trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic
story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely
no mention of it in any reports.*

*Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in
the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated
on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda.

Other snipers at Stalingrad.

Vasiliy Zaitsev W.W. II Russia about 400 kills
(149 Kills at the battle of Stalingrad, some sources telling me he shot 232 German soldiers
at Stalingrad)

A sniper reaching forty kills would receive the "for bravery" and the title of
"Nobel Sniper".
The highest scorer only identified as "Zikan" killed 224 Germans by 20 November 1942.
Sergeant Passar of 21st Army was credited with 103 kills.
Kucherenko, an Ukrainian, killed 19.
An Uzbek from 169th Rifle Division killed five Germans in three days.
Anatoly Chekov killed 17 Germans in two days !
Corporal Studentov killed 170 Germans.
"Noble Sniper" Ilin, a commissar from a Guards rifle regiment, was credited
with 185 kills.

Sniper V. Kozlov, just being decorated
for his 30th kill.

-


-

I would have to agree with what Dani had posted earlier in this thread.


You forced me to copy and paste :D :D
Quoted:
Thorvald and/or Konig
There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.
End quote.
:D
-

Another comment on the subject from another forum.




Jim Thompson (from another forum)
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?showtopic=4989

I have to laugh sometimes at the efforts of latter-day historians
to "de-bunk" what they love to call "fictional Soviet propaganda"...
the general idea, just like re-writing and revising the history of
our own Viet Nam War, is to completely alter perceptions of what
actually happened.

I have been told by American observers who witnessed events in
and around Stalingrad of several such "duels", one involving Zaitsev,
and I have heard the same thing from Soviet veterans and German
survivors.

I was also told by an expert on Soviet Propaganda that the
Soviets INTENTIONALLY used a false name and ascribed S.S.
status, rather than Gebirgsjaeger unit i.d., to the shooter for
"fictional propaganda purposes"...

But the duels were VERY real, not just on the Volga, but as early
as 1941, and right to the very end, not always that personal,
but just as focussed and bitter.

I even read a "historian" who claimed the entire tale of female
sharpshooters was false. He based this on a type of action
report which the Soviet Army only began to use at the very end
of the war, and several other very strange sources. This makes
liars of many thousands of witnesses.

-

bas
05-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Yes George, but the whole point of this debate is the idea that the Germans sent a "super sniper" to assinate Zaitsev, no one is debating that "sniper duels" (snipers engaging in anti-sniper missions) occured.


I was also told by an expert on Soviet Propaganda that the
Soviets INTENTIONALLY used a false name and ascribed S.S.
status, rather than Gebirgsjaeger unit i.d., to the shooter for
"fictional propaganda purposes"...


So what happened is that one particular encounter was taken by the propaganda people and "sexed" up by labeling the German as a master sniper specially sent to assinate Zaitsev the home grown farm boy.....

After all if they change the snipers unit, why not change his rank and status?

As for removing record of the encounter by the Germans to save face? Come on, they recorded pleanty of other embarrising mistakes why whipe all record of this minor event?

The whole Zaitsev vs Koning dual is a myth, a good propoganda story that helped ignite Russian patriotism and turn the tide of the war.

Chevan
05-02-2006, 11:13 AM
For the last time, the sniper duel did not take place... It's a myth... Fiction...
There are many sniper duels were in Stalingrad at that time. Every day and evry night garmans and soviet snipers killed enemy's soldiers and officers. And certainly, they killed each other.
What else ,Auke , do you mean like "duel"?
I think it's absolutly do not matter what was the name of killed germans sniper: Erwin Kernig, Henz Thorwald or ,maybe, Hanz Kristian Andersen.
Many experienced snipers ,germans and soviet, were killed in Stalingrad.
And most of germans were killed by Vasiliy Zaitsev and Anatoliy Chehov
- that's realy important.
What is the realy a myth ... fiction and ...propaganda? This is the film "Enemy at the gates".

Cuts
05-02-2006, 12:13 PM
While stalking is one of the sniper skills and counter sniper ops were definitely conducted, the ranges at which these engagements took place were significantly shorter than those at which snipers can and are often employed.

Many of these men and women learnt and/or practiced their trade in FIBUA scenarios and may perhaps more properly be described as sharpshooters.

In no way do I mean to detract from these soldiers' bravery or skill, but apart from those trained at specialist all terrain centres the title of 'sniper' seems to be, at least in part, a misnomer.

George Eller
05-02-2006, 08:39 PM
Yes George, but the whole point of this debate is the idea that the Germans sent a "super sniper" to assinate Zaitsev, no one is debating that "sniper duels" (snipers engaging in anti-sniper missions) occured.


I was also told by an expert on Soviet Propaganda that the
Soviets INTENTIONALLY used a false name and ascribed S.S.
status, rather than Gebirgsjaeger unit i.d., to the shooter for
"fictional propaganda purposes"...


So what happened is that one particular encounter was taken by the propaganda people and "sexed" up by labeling the German as a master sniper specially sent to assinate Zaitsev the home grown farm boy.....

After all if they change the snipers unit, why not change his rank and status?

As for removing record of the encounter by the Germans to save face? Come on, they recorded pleanty of other embarrising mistakes why whipe all record of this minor event?

The whole Zaitsev vs Koning dual is a myth, a good propaganda story that helped ignite Russian patriotism and turn the tide of the war.

-

bas,

I have never denied the possibilty that the story may have been a Soviet fabrication for propaganda purposes. In each of the previous posts that I have placed on this thread I have included information to that effect. As I stated previously - I posted the story (real or fiction) because it had not previously been included in this thread and to contrast it to the version seen in the movie. My main motive was to post it as an exhibit for the record. In other words, as a more accurate representation of the original Soviet version of the story than was portrayed in the movie (and fully aware that it could have been Soviet propaganda).

I don't have problem with the story possibly being "a myth, a good propaganda story that helped ignite Russian patriotism and turn the tide of the war." If it was, it would not have been the first time the Soviets ever lied (or any government for that matter). But the nazis were not exactly the guardians of truth either, nor was Hitler the most rational of men. So, I can't discount the possibility (however remote) that the records could have been removed by the Germans to save face. Therefore, I cannot say with honesty that I am 100 percent convinced that the story is a fake - there is still a tiny sliver of doubt. But that is just my opinion.

That being said, even if I knew for certain that it was a fabrication I would still post the story for the historical record (as significant propaganda). I would still find the story interesting as historical fiction as it gives a glimpse into how intense the sniper duels could be.

-

Auke
05-05-2006, 12:09 PM
For the last time, the sniper duel did not take place... It's a myth... Fiction...
There are many sniper duels were in Stalingrad at that time. Every day and evry night garmans and soviet snipers killed enemy's soldiers and officers. And certainly, they killed each other.
What else ,Auke , do you mean like "duel"?
The duel between Vasily G. Zaitsev and Major Erwin König / Standartenführer Heinz Thorwald did not take place. Probably there were some duels between lesser known snipers, but König / Thorwald did not exist.

Panzerknacker
05-07-2006, 02:40 PM
The V. Zaisev working tool...the Moisin with 3,5x PU scope.

http://media.putfile.com/mosin_nagant_9130_pu

Chevan
05-08-2006, 12:49 PM
The duel between Vasily G. Zaitsev and Major Erwin König / Standartenführer Heinz Thorwald did not take place. Probably there were some duels between lesser known snipers, but König / Thorwald did not exist.
I assume the fact that König / Thorwald did never exist. But in his memoirs , V. Zaitsev told about german "supersniper" in Stalingrad which killed two soviet experienced snipers. The task to dismiss enemy was sat for Zaitsev's sniper group and Vasiliy with his assistent Kulikov carried
out the task. The fact that the duel was real confirm memoirs of general Chyikov.
It's probably later, in propaganda purpose, german sniper was called as commander of snipers school the König / Thorwald .
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1829/34battle28ta.gif

shoogs
05-06-2007, 01:55 PM
was Vassili Zaitsev a real person, i watched a program on discovery chennel talking about this person and how he took out the german sniper BUT i watched another program on the same channel talking about snipers and they were saying the Vassili Zaitsev was just a proper gander stunt to keep ut the russians moral. does any one else here see these two programs and can you tell me wether it true or false, as the discovery channel has contrdicted itself..

Jay
05-06-2007, 01:59 PM
Yes, he was a real person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassili_Zaitsev

Dani
05-06-2007, 02:56 PM
Last 2 posts merged in this thread from the 2005 archive.

Edited: also merged with another one from 2006 archive

shoogs
05-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Yes, he was a real person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassili_Zaitsev

thanks m8, makes you wounder who makes these programs up dont it ??

Vassili Chukolov
05-06-2007, 06:00 PM
Ah, noble sniper Zaitsev. Many kills! He's earned himself an impresive reputation I must say. And as for Konings, Ive read up that he doesn't seem to exist. Few people claimed he wasn't in the German army at all, as if a myth to serve as Russian Propaganda. Who know's?

Sgt.Malarky
06-11-2007, 02:10 PM
He had 400 kills.If its wrong don't blame me i watched it on weaponology.

Panzerknacker
06-14-2007, 09:16 AM
He claimed 400 kills, we dont know if that is the actual figure.

oreminer
06-27-2007, 10:11 AM
wasnt it about just 149 kills?

Falco
10-22-2007, 06:18 PM
No by the end of the war the confirmed amount of kills he had was around 400

Falco
10-22-2007, 06:21 PM
and the sniper duel i believe it did take place because iv seen a lot of tv shows and programms and they all say the duel took place

Falco
10-25-2007, 09:05 PM
wasnt it about just 149 kills?

there was 175 confirmed kills in stalingrad

feldwebel1942
10-04-2008, 04:24 PM
a german captive admitted that the werhrmacht command was seriously converned about the damage russian snipers were doing, so they ordered Major Konings, head of wehrmacht's sniper school near berlin, had been flown in for the express purpose of taking out the "main rabbit" due to the meaning of the name zaitsev meant rabbit

flamethrowerguy
10-05-2008, 06:02 AM
a german captive admitted that the werhrmacht command was seriously converned about the damage russian snipers were doing, so they ordered Major Konings, head of wehrmacht's sniper school near berlin, had been flown in for the express purpose of taking out the "main rabbit" due to the meaning of the name zaitsev meant rabbit

There has never been a Major Erwin König or a SS-Standartenführer Heinz Thorwald, they're all "invented" by the Red Army's propaganda section.

feldwebel1942
10-05-2008, 05:07 PM
Inconsistencies can be found in any avenue of this legend, such as the Major himself. There are no records of a Major König in the Germans’ military archives, although there are of one S.S. Colonel Heinz Thorvald. Also, there was no mention of a sniper duel in reports to Aleksandr Shcherbakov, to whom all aspects of sniperism were reported. It is noted that the Russians, like any other country, used propaganda to increase morale, and so the sniper duel of Stalingrad remains shrouded in myth.

flamethrowerguy
10-06-2008, 07:49 AM
There are no records of a Major König in the Germans’ military archives, although there are of one S.S. Colonel Heinz Thorvald.

Would you mind quoting some details on him?
Thanx!

shoogs
10-08-2008, 06:20 PM
Heinz Thorvald (died c. 1942) was an alleged apocryphal, yet famous, German sniper, best known from the memoirs of Vasily Grigoryevich Zaytsev and the book Enemy at the Gates (not to be confused with the movie mentioned below) as a skilled sniper that Vasily killed during the Battle of Stalingrad. He was apparently identified by documents from his body, although the Germans had no records of Heinz Thorvald. Allegedly he was a high ranking officer and had hundreds of kills, as many as 400, the amount of exaggeration is indeterminate. This "sniper duel" was used by the Soviets for propaganda purposes. Thorvald's existence is itself unconfirmed, so it is currently unknown if the "duel" took place.


Fictional representations
A fictionalized account in the movie Enemy at the Gates portrays Heinz Thorvald (under the name of Erwin König), played by Ed Harris, as the head of the Wehrmacht Sniper School. He is sent to Stalingrad to take on the increasingly aggressive Soviet sniper division. In this, he is at first highly successful. He is depicted as a ruthless, somewhat aristocratic Bavarian, pitted against Vasily Zaytsev, the top Russian sniper and propaganda darling. In the film, König is killed at the Stalingrad train yard after Zaytsev fires a Mosin-Nagant (7.62x54R) bullet through the German's left eye.

The name Heinz Thorvald was arrogated by author David L. Robbins in his 1999 novel War of the Rats, although he argues that Thorvald was an SS colonel (Standartenführer), and was originally an instructor at the Wehrmacht underground headquarters in Zossen. However, no records of the SS ever being in Stalingrad have been found, and no active sniper was ever given a rank so high, as snipers in the German Army were not employed in formed units of snipers, but were rather deployed in small groups. The Red Army, conversely, deployed snipers in units as large as a battalion, and Vasily himself was a Junior Lieutenant and eventually Captain.


just somthing i thought tou lot would like ..... was in that Wikipedia oh well:twisted:

flamethrowerguy
10-08-2008, 06:33 PM
See! And to shorten it: The story of the high-ranking (SS-) officer, probably aristocratic, being defeated by the poor, enlisted russian shepherd/sniper form the Ural was a wonderful class struggle fairy tale for the bolshevik potentates. Over and out.

navyson
10-08-2008, 06:41 PM
See! And to shorten it: The story of the high-ranking (SS-) officer, probably aristocratic, being defeated by the poor, enlisted russian shepherd/sniper form the Ural was a wonderful class struggle fairy tale for the bolshevik potentates. Over and out.
In other words, it didn't happen, am I right?

flamethrowerguy
10-08-2008, 06:59 PM
In other words, it didn't happen, am I right?

You're right.
Just a few sidenotes. Mysterious "Heinz Thorvald" was supposed to be an SS-Standartenführer (= Colonel). Actually "sniper warfare" was not a real issue in the Waffen-SS. It was rather considered a dishonorable way of fighting ("terrorist hedgerow shooters").
Anyway, the most successful german sniper in WW2 was Gefreiter (PFC) Matthäus Hetzenauer with 345 confirmed kills by the end of the war. He was awarded the Knight's Cross on April 17, 1945.
Now imagine a colonel of the Waffen-SS with "more than 400 kills" by the end of 1942 already. What would the Third Reich propaganda had made out of this man? BTW, among the 7313 recipients of the Knight's Cross you won't find a Heinz Thorvald.

Chevan
10-09-2008, 12:52 AM
Now imagine a colonel of the Waffen-SS with "more than 400 kills" by the end of 1942 already. What would the Third Reich propaganda had made out of this man? BTW, among the 7313 recipients of the Knight's Cross you won't find a Heinz Thorvald.
This says nothing indeed.
As we know the famouse finnish sniper Simo Hayha claims about 400 ONLY for few month of Winter war 1939-40.(he totaly claimes over 500 during all the ww2)
The sniper activity can be very short but resultative.

Chevan
10-09-2008, 01:23 AM
See! And to shorten it: The story of the high-ranking (SS-) officer, probably aristocratic, being defeated by the poor, enlisted russian shepherd/sniper form the Ural was a wonderful class struggle fairy tale for the bolshevik potentates. Over and out.

Don't too hurry my friend:)
Althought i do agree that Thorvalds/Konig never existed, we have a lot of evidences of sniper-duel in Stalingrad.
In fact Vasilij Zaitsev in his memours did not write about Thorvalds at all.
He wrote about GErmans experensive super-sniper who killed couple of soviet snipers and wounded another one.Zaitsev has got a special order to find and eliminate the super-sniper( also fact supported by the other Veterans, for instance the former commander of Stalingrad's defence general Chuikov).
Initialy the name Thorvallds has rised to surface in Soviet press in 1943 , ostensibly the GErmans POWs called him during cross-testing.
Actualy this stroy have been highly "decorated" by other authors ( mostly journalists) with bu..st.True It have been made in ideological purposes.
But we have no reasones to deny the memours of Zaitsev himself.
Whatever the German supersniper was, the sniper duel was a REAL.
BTW the sweet "Class strugle fairy tell about shepherd/sniper form the Ural" WAS no more actual in 1942, becouse the GErman Army consisted mostly from the workers as much as the Red one.
The simple GErman workers killed the Russian ones very well , so in fact the famouse Bolshevics bu...sh about class solidarity HAS BEEN DENIED since the most beginning of war.Soviet propogand has been forced to RESTORE the "old-fashioned" Russian PATRIOTISM.They start to appelate to the national proudness.
SO indeed in the story of Zaitsev did not even touched the class origin of supposed Thorvalds- ALL the GErmans have been declared as enemy , independently of thier Class .
The famouse soviet "loudhailer of propogand" Ilia Erenburg calls to hate and kill all the GErmans since 1941.

flamethrowerguy
10-09-2008, 03:20 AM
This says nothing indeed.
As we know the famouse finnish sniper Simo Hayha claims about 400 ONLY for few month of Winter war 1939-40.(he totaly claimes over 500 during all the ww2)
The sniper activity can be very short but resultative.

Well, just take this one from me. If there had been a german sniper with that amount of confirmed kill by late '42, we would certainly know about him!
And concerning Simo Hayha...I absolutely don't know how the finns did celebrate/award their "heroes" but I do know that finns are very quiet and tight-lipped people by nature, unlike germans and russians.:mrgreen:

Chevan
10-09-2008, 05:23 AM
Well, just take this one from me. If there had been a german sniper with that amount of confirmed kill by late '42, we would certainly know about him!

Well you point is right and i do agree. Actualy the 400+ for 1942 looks suspective, but...
As i know the Zaitsev himself did claim 200+ althought he was a sniper ONLY for short time- since september 1942 till the feb 1943 when he was seriously wounded.So in fact he killed about 200 for few mounth too becouse after he has come back to front from hospital , he never has returned to the sniper service till the end of war.
This is well know fact from his biography.


And concerning Simo Hayha...I absolutely don't know how the finns did celebrate/award their "heroes" but I do know that finns are very quiet and tight-lipped people by nature, unlike germans and russians.:mrgreen:
Did you ever see how the "quiet and tight-lipped" finns crushed the Russian Ice hockey team many times?
Never underestimate neither them nor their heroes.:):D

flamethrowerguy
10-09-2008, 01:54 PM
As i know the Zaitsev himself did claim 200+ althought he was a sniper ONLY for short time- since september 1942 till the feb 1943 when he was seriously wounded.So in fact he killed about 200 for few mounth too becouse after he has come back to front from hospital , he never has returned to the sniper service till the end of war. This is well know fact from his biography.

This are surely reasonable numbers, also because I think that the Stalingrad battles were optimal sniper terrain.


Did you ever see how the "quiet and tight-lipped" finns crushed the Russian Ice hockey team many times?
Never underestimate neither them nor their heroes.:):D

Yes, but even when breaking noses and knocking out teeth Finns don't talk too much I heard. :mrgreen:

colonel hogan
11-05-2008, 02:55 PM
Jude Law did pretty good in enemy at the gates but does anyone know more about him or major konig?

pdf27
11-05-2008, 03:25 PM
The forum "search" function is your friend!
http://ww2incolor.com/forum/search.php?searchid=525847

Innocenti
11-27-2008, 03:09 AM
First of all, I have to say that that film was absolute rubbish. I've read many first hand accounts by soldiers in the Soviet Army in WW2 and never have I read anything so silly as what it depicts. The vast majority of young men and women willingly went into combat without any need to use the type of crude intimidation that ignorant film portrays. That being said I can recommend a great little book by Zaitsev himself which will quickly confirm what I just wrote. Its called 'Notes of a Sniper' by the man himself. Get it here:

http://www.amazon.com/Notes-Sniper-Vassili-Zaitsevs-Stalingrad/dp/0615121489

I've read it a few times and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Chevan
11-27-2008, 07:08 AM
First of all, I have to say that that film was absolute rubbish. I've read many first hand accounts by soldiers in the Soviet Army in WW2 and never have I read anything so silly as what it depicts. The vast majority of young men and women willingly went into combat without any need to use the type of crude intimidation that ignorant film portrays. That being said I can recommend a great little book by Zaitsev himself which will quickly confirm what I just wrote. Its called 'Notes of a Sniper' by the man himself. Get it here:

http://www.amazon.com/Notes-Sniper-Vassili-Zaitsevs-Stalingrad/dp/0615121489

I've read it a few times and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Very well Innocenti.
Actualy you right about rubbish in that film.I fully agree.I have to add that the many scenes of film kinda the attack of soviet infantry under NKVD mashine-guns has been "invented" by authors of film
The Zaitsev's original memours-book "There is no land beyond the Volga:Notes of sniper" migh be found here in russian.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/_zaytsev_/index.html

Tovarich
12-07-2008, 04:34 AM
Vassili entered military service in 1937 serving in the Russian pacific fleet as an accountant.When ww2 came he sent out many requests to go to the front and finally in 1942 his request was granted.

Vassili Zaitsevs first combat was in the battle for Stalingrad-He served in the 284th rifle division,His feats as a sniper in Stalingrad made him well known all over Russia. In January 1943 Vassili was wounded by a mortar that temporarily blinded him. Vassili recovered in Moscow(Febuary 1943)and while there was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union,Joseph Stalin was impressed with Zaitsevs feats and had Zaitsev write a combat report and had it published in the Soviet field manual.

In march 1943 Vassili returned back to combat this time with the new and improved Mosin Nagant PU sniper rifle and served under Vassili Chuikov-the 2 were like brothers Vassilis wife claims.Vassili took part in destroying the enemy in the Donbass, participated in the battle for the Dnieper, fought under the Odessa and on the river Dniester to name a few. At the end of the war Vassili had over 400 confirmed kills,Though the real number of kills is much higher...

Post war Vassili married and had several children and managed a factory in Kiev and visited Stalingrad(Volgograd) many times where he met with friends that served with him-he also spoke to crowds in the Volgograd museum-Vassili passed away on December 15th 1991.

About Major Koning,Vassili did have a duel in Stalingrad with a German sniper-Vassili claims it was Major Koning based on documents he took off this German snipers body. Marshall of the Soviet Union Vassili Chuikov also mentions Major Koing in his memoirs.

Post war in Germany Vassili was at a military meeting,A woman stood up and said she is the daughter of Major Koning and would like to speak with Vassili. The Russian KGB quickly evacuated Vassili to avoid any possible threat-That to me gives alot of proof to the duel.

Konings scope can be seen in the Moscow Armed Forces museum today,Vassili Zaitsevs rifle can be seen in the Volgograd museum today-the Volgograd museum opened a whole sniper exhibit in 2006 when Vassili was reburied in Volgograd.

Enemy at the gates im not too fond of myself,Its to inaccurate and said by many to be somewhat of an anti communist film. The Stalingrad veterans went as far as trying to get the movie banned.

Regards

flamethrowerguy
12-07-2008, 06:03 AM
...Konings scope can be seen in the Moscow Armed Forces museum today,Vassili Zaitsevs rifle can be seen in the Volgograd museum today-the Volgograd museum opened a whole sniper exhibit in 2006 when Vassili was reburied in Volgograd...

This issue has been discussed many times before here.
A german sniper Major König/Koning/Thorvald -or whatever the soviet propaganda called him- never existed.

flamethrowerguy
12-07-2008, 06:21 AM
BTW, both "Vassili Zaitsev" threads have been merged.

Tovarich
12-07-2008, 03:13 PM
This issue has been discussed many times before here.
A german sniper Major König/Koning/Thorvald -or whatever the soviet propaganda called him- never existed. That is possible,Im yet to see any documents on Koning except for those in Russian archives.

A German veteran of Stalingrad tells of a sniper being flown in to pick off the Russian snipers in a ww2 documentary I seen,The vet said their commander told the sniper-Their snipers are over there,you must find a spot to the left to find them' He didnt have a chance the vet said he was killed imediatley. Most likely there were a few German snipers flown in. But who knows if this Koning was one of them...

The duel is over rated I think due to Enemy at the gates,If Koning was not real it doesnt take away Zaitsevs great feats as a sniper,Vassili for sure was not just a tool of the Soviet propaganda machine as shown in Enemy at the gates.

Regards

flamethrowerguy
12-07-2008, 03:20 PM
That is possible,Im yet to see any documents on Koning except for those in Russian archives.

A German veteran of Stalingrad tells of a sniper being flown in to pick off the Russian snipers in a ww2 documentary I seen,The vet said their commander told the sniper-Their snipers are over there,you must find a spot to the left to find them' He didnt have a chance the vet said he was killed imediatley. Most likely there were a few German snipers flown in. But who knows if this Koning was one of them...

The duel is over rated I think due to Enemy at the gates,If Koning was not real it doesnt take away Zaitsevs great feats as a sniper,Vassili for sure was not just a tool of the Soviet propaganda machine as shown in Enemy at the gates.

Regards

No doubt, Zaitsev was an extraordinary soldier/sniper. As I mentioned before - it's not unlikely that german counter snipers were set on Zaitsev by german leadership but surely no Major or Colonel (Thorvald) with 400 kills.

Tovarich
12-07-2008, 03:29 PM
No doubt, Zaitsev was an extraordinary soldier/sniper. As I mentioned before - it's not unlikely that german counter snipers were set on Zaitsev by german leadership but surely no Major or Colonel (Thorvald) with 400 kills. Agreed,People have told me that no German sniper was ever even a Major-wold this be true ?
Heres a photo of the German snipers scope that Zaitsev took off his rifle,Ive been wondering what kind of scope it is looks like a Zeiss but im not sure-anyone know? Thanks
Regards

flamethrowerguy
12-07-2008, 04:14 PM
Agreed,People have told me that no German sniper was ever even a Major-wold this be true ?
Heres a photo of the German snipers scope that Zaitsev took off his rifle,Ive been wondering what kind of scope it is looks like a Zeiss but im not sure-anyone know? Thanks
Regards
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm331/marksman1942/Zaitsev/konl.jpg

Look at the three most successful german snipers (Hetzenauer, Allerberger, Wirnsberger) , no one of them had a higher rank as Sergeant.
The scope does look like a "Hensoldt Dialytan 4x" to me.

Dixie Devil
12-09-2008, 01:54 PM
Zaytsev wrote a biography titled “Notes of a Sniper” where he does describe a duel with a very skilled German sniper. The duel was similar but much less dramatic than the propaganda created duel where he killed the fictional Thorvald/König but Zaytsev himself only claimed ‘a very skilled sniper.’ It makes one wonder why the Moscow Armed Forces Museum continues to display the scope that they claim is from Thorvald’s rifle.

bas
12-09-2008, 04:03 PM
It makes one wonder why the Moscow Armed Forces Museum continues to display the scope that they claim is from Thorvald’s rifle.

Probably because:
* It's still the official story
* It's a good story
* It is still historically significant in the greater context of WWII.

Also i doubt museums have the time to constantly update every exhibition as new facts come to light.

Dixie Devil
12-09-2008, 05:25 PM
Well one would think that a museum would have people working to determine what is factual and what isn't. Or maybe I am falling prey to a Western line of thinking again. Don’t have to book on hand right now but seeing as Zaytsev died 18 years ago and wrote his book before then there has been quite a while to update their information.

bas
12-09-2008, 05:44 PM
Well one would think that a museum would have people working to determine what is factual and what isn't. Or maybe I am falling prey to a Western line of thinking again.

Not Western line of thinking more idealist. In an ideal world there would be a essay with the scope telling the story and alternative views. In the real world there isn't time and money to do that with every exhibit and most people won't care enough to warrent the effort.

Tovarich
12-09-2008, 10:31 PM
I agree the real duel was nothing like seen in the movie. In Vassilis original full length memoirs "For us there is no land beyond the Volga" he claims a German prisoner told Chuikov that a Major Koning has been flown in to take out Zaitsev.

This so called Koning killed sniper Gryazev and shattered the scope of sniper Morozovs rifle. Vassili and his team went tracking Koning down when eventually Zaitsev and Kulikov found "Konings" area of operation-they searched for him over a weeks time and eventually Zaitsev killed this German sniper supposibly "Koning" Vassili and Kulikov went over to his body took his documents which read the name Koning on them. Vassili gave the rifle to Captain Batyuk and kept the scope as a trophy. More can be heard on the documentary-Russias War Series where Zaitsev tells about his experiances and the duel on it.

But again there is no proof of this German sniper being a Major or head of the sniper school in Berlin... as flamethrowerguy said the top 3 German snipers didnt have a rank higher than sergeant.

Regards

EchoOfDreaMs
12-13-2008, 12:14 AM
Sorry I just got done watching enemy at the gates and google'd vassili zaitsev to read up about the actual real life sniper hero. I have to say, after reading every post carefully and checking everyones resources, I've come to the conclusion that the sniper duel DID in fact take place. There is no concrete evidence to support the fact that this Major Konig/Koning/Thorval did NOT exist. There is however, a substantial amount of evidence to support the theory that he DID exist. The notes from Vassili's memoirs concerning the duel of a "very skilled sniper" and the fact that the scope of his gun was kept as a trophy is in my opinion, more persuasive than Konig's name not being shown on any records. There is a scene in enemy at the gates in which Konig is talking to his superior officer who speaks of any knowledge of his existence being stricken from record in the event of his failure. Now, I understand that this movie is more fiction and hollywood glamour than fact, but that doesn't mean that this scenario could not have actually happened. Vassili had been blown up alot as a folk hero through propaganda during the war and if indeed he was targeted specifically by a supposed super sniper, it's very realistic that the Germans would have denied such a failure. Not so much for the purpose of saving face on their side, but mainly to reduce the success and acclaim of such a celebrated and admired war hero of the Russians. I mean c'mon, no country wants to admit another country's soldiers are better than their own. And if they ever came out and said Konig actually existed, that's exactly what they'd be saying.

Terry_214
12-27-2008, 01:48 PM
The film 'Enemy at the Gates' cannot be taken as a historical document. Every war film to greater or lesser degree muddles with history, going back to just after the war finished.

However after seeing this film I did want to read more about 'Duel of two Snipers'.

I have now read over 20 sources on the subject, and Vassili did exsist. He was a decent shot,(avg sniper shot in stalingrad was 32m, not what we'd think of as sniper distances) and he was used as a properganda tool. He reached his high kill levels because targets were set up/sourced for him by his team of snipers, know as rabbits.

There was however no 'Super Duel'.

No recored has ever been found in the german archvies of any personel transfer, billeting or resource requests with refernce to König/Koning/Thorvald . This lack of details from the same archives that DO the amount of gas required to kill each of the millions of inocennts held in the concertration camps. How much space each required, how much food, heat etc. etc. etc.

Also the NKVD were ansererable only to Stalin, and would enforce Stalin's 'Not a step Backward' directive with brutal and excessive force, and men were often shot for retreating.

“In the Soviet army it takes more courage to retreat than advance.”
'Joseph Stalin'

colonel hogan
12-29-2008, 12:51 PM
Look at the three most successful german snipers (Hetzenauer, Allerberger, Wirnsberger) , no one of them had a higher rank as Sergeant.
The scope does look like a "Hensoldt Dialytan 4x" to me.

ss colonel hienz thorwald head of the german sniper school in zossen.he and zaitsev stalked each other for 3 days but zaitsev got the kill. later he was blinded in 1 eye from shrapnel but regained sight after a doctor preformed surgery. page 239 of the world at arms the readers digest illustrated history of ww2. look it up!

flamethrowerguy
12-29-2008, 01:21 PM
ss colonel hienz thorwald head of the german sniper school in zossen.he and zaitsev stalked each other for 3 days but zaitsev got the kill. later he was blinded in 1 eye from shrapnel but regained sight after a doctor preformed surgery. page 239 of the world at arms the readers digest illustrated history of ww2. look it up!


Well,...http://www.smileygarden.de/smilie/Crazy/9.gif (http://www.smileygarden.de)

Terry_214
12-30-2008, 05:16 PM
I stand corrected. If the Readers Digest says it happened..............

S.M.I.D
12-30-2008, 09:05 PM
ss colonel hienz thorwald head of the german sniper school in zossen.he and zaitsev stalked each other for 3 days but zaitsev got the kill. later he was blinded in 1 eye from shrapnel but regained sight after a doctor preformed surgery. page 239 of the world at arms the readers digest illustrated history of ww2. look it up!

Ah yes the problem is that the sniper school in Zossen never had one Heinz Thorwald, matter of fact Germans did not have any records of the guy, what we know is that Zaitsev did shoot a kraut sniper, everything else including "hundreds of kills" is propaganda and heresay which is unconfirmed and undocumented, unless you use soviet newsreels as proof.

Tovarich
01-03-2009, 07:31 PM
This video spoke volumes to me-Zaitsev says who would have guessed some bigshot like this had flown to Stalingrad but when we dragged him out we found him to be the head of the Berlin sniper school !

Probably from documents taken off the German sniper more than likely

Regards"-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn8rCfs8n70

ptimms
01-04-2009, 10:38 AM
Took this from the Axis History database on the subject.

Here is what Anthony Beevor (author of Stalingrad) had to say:
"Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda."

The quote below is from a BBC News article:
"Mr Beevor, whose acclaimed tome Stalingrad is rapidly becoming the definitive text on the battle, said while Zaitsev was a real figure there was no evidence to support the existence of Koenig.
He said: 'I've been through the Soviet Ministry of Defence's archive in Podolsk and there is no record of such a duel.'
'If it had taken place the Soviet propaganda machine would have leapt on it.'"

Addendum by Martin Pegler
Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
"Scott,
While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance."

Tovarich
01-04-2009, 04:06 PM
Took this from the Axis History database on the subject.

Here is what Anthony Beevor (author of Stalingrad) had to say:
"Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda."

The quote below is from a BBC News article:
"Mr Beevor, whose acclaimed tome Stalingrad is rapidly becoming the definitive text on the battle, said while Zaitsev was a real figure there was no evidence to support the existence of Koenig.
He said: 'I've been through the Soviet Ministry of Defence's archive in Podolsk and there is no record of such a duel.'
'If it had taken place the Soviet propaganda machine would have leapt on it.'"

Addendum by Martin Pegler
Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
"Scott,
While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance." There may or may not be records of the duel taking place, But as Zaitsev said in the video-He had a duel with a German sniper and when they dragged the German out they found this German sniper to be the head of the Berlin sniper school. Zaitsev confirmed the duel in his memoirs as well.

Im taking Zaitsevs word on it and agreeing that this German sniper was in fact the head of Berlins sniper school-of course thats only my opinion and doesnt make it fact. The way I see it though there is too much proof to say that the duel did not happen, There is Zaitsevs word on camera and in his memoirs,Marshall of the Soviet Union Vassili Chuikov even told of the duel in his memoirs,There is Konings scope in the Moscow museum,and the encounter Zaitsev had with supposibly Konings daughter post war in Berlin Germany.

Here is what Vassilis wife said about this encounter during an interview in 2006"-

Zaitsev was invited to Berlin for a Soviet military conference,In the city hall of Berlin the civilians asked Zaitsev to tell about the duel with Major Koning,and some woman suddenly rises and tells Zaitsev-Im the daughter of Major Koning ! Zaitsevs face turned gray from this encounter. The Soviet organizers quickly evacuated Zaitsev into a car with protection and transported him out to avoid a threat... Indeed during the battle there is proof and fact that Zaitsev killed Koning, intelligence officers took the documents of the Fascist sniper. In Stalingrad Koning killed two of Zaitsevs snipers as well as several officers. During the duel Koning shot and shattered the scope on sniper Morozovs rifle,a student of Zaitsevs.Koning then wounded a political instructor, for a second Koning rose above from his cover and his Sniper scope made it possible for Zaitsev to see and thats where Zaitsev shot and killed the Major.Vassili said the Duel lasted for some four days and finally Zaitsev and his partner Nikolai Kulikov outwitted and destroyed the enemy sniper Koning.....

That is the story im going to have to agree with

Best regards

flamethrowerguy
01-04-2009, 04:27 PM
That is the story im going to have to agree with

Well, if this story makes your life more convenient I'd hate to destroy your illusions. However, a "sniper-school" at Berlin or at Zossen (as an alternate version) is as fictious as a Major König/Koning/Konig/Konings etc. pp. or a "SS-Colonel" Thorvald.

Chevan
01-13-2009, 02:19 AM
Zaitsev was invited to Berlin for a Soviet military conference,In the city hall of Berlin the civilians asked Zaitsev to tell about the duel with Major Koning,and some woman suddenly rises and tells Zaitsev-Im the daughter of Major Koning ! Zaitsevs face turned gray from this encounter. The Soviet organizers quickly evacuated Zaitsev into a car with protection and transported him out to avoid a threat...

I have read such a story in his memours. But i think this is nothing more then provocation.
Probably some girl wished to get the attention to their person , for fun or with somthing els.
Endeed the duel was a real, but Koning/Thorvalds was a nice fary tell of SOviet newspaper reporters.
It was such convinient that Zaitsev himself has believed to it:)

saffer
01-13-2009, 05:21 AM
Wasn't there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?

flamethrowerguy
01-13-2009, 05:30 AM
Wasn't there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?

Although there were a lot of female snipers in the Red Army (e.g. german sniper Sepp Allerberger writes about a whole female sniper company in "Im Auge des Jägers") I don't recall a particular one.
However I do recall this czech woman which can be considered successful:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/other/800px-Marie_Ljalkov___with_SVT-40_rifle.html?g2_fromNavId=x0e5e9167

Chevan
01-13-2009, 05:49 AM
Wasn't there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?

A lot of soviet snipers were woman.
http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/sniper/gal1.htm
Rosa SHanina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Shanina