Who hates America / Americans?

[Rising Sun*]

I'm watching a serious Australian news program where an American commentator is being interviewed and he says that his experience is that in Europe and other places Americans are not too welcome, but he and they don't have that problem in Australia.

That'd be my view.

I don't agree with Bush and his idiot cabal and their marvellous attempts to bring the world into greater conflict than it already was, and that's about the view of most people I know. Most Australians, that is, but there is the occasional Bush fan. The small number of Americans I know are much more hostile to Bush, and a couple of them are Republicans!

The general view here, at least among people I know, is that America can be a serious international PITA and a serious risk to international peace (I am not joking.), but Americans as individuals aren't the problem and will just be treated as found, i.e. They're okay unless they do something to cause people to form a different view.

How do people elsewhere view Americans?

[Egorka]

In Denamrk among my 14+ colleagues NO ONE (including my self) can say almost anything good about American politics. We have several nationalities in here me being the only one from a former Socialist country... So be informed.

Regarding the normal American citizens, the word "hate" that you used is not correct. There is no hate in here (there is even very little actual hate towards Americans in Russia). People here can not understand the American urge for guns, fast food and supporting war in Iraq.

[Gen. Sandworm]

As an American that has spent 3 years abroad (all in Scandinavia) and meet many different ppl from many different places. I run into the occassional asshole that hates Americans. Most ppl around here (nordic countries) like American ppl. Bush is pretty much hated everywhere. I get all kinds of questions about American politics. Most ppl from Nato countries will tell you that some years ago when American said Jump they Jumped too. But with the invasion of Iraq and the US war on terror ppl have begin to question the US and their actions. Seems now that those questions have turned into anti-american government views. Alot of foreigners dont see understand why the Americans dont do something or even get the fact that they are pissing off old allies. There are many other factors as well but these seem to be the highlights.

I cant tell you the utter contempt I felt when I saw my countrymen denoucing all things French just because France took a different stance on the war in Iraq. IF you look at French history this is nothing uncommon..........France has always looked out for the best interest of France. They helped the Americans fight the Brits in the war of independence just to piss the Brits off. Other factors im sure but doesnt go much deeper than that. Of course they wanted to see we were serious before a major deployment.

So bottom line..........Most ppl get along with the American ppl quite well. But I have meet very few ppl that like Bush at all. IMO he has damaged our foriegn policy almost to the point of disrepair. It will be many years before things get back to the way they used to be...........if ever.

Just my view of things.

[Rising Sun*]

But I have meet very few ppl that like Bush at all. IMO he has damaged our foriegn policy almost to the point of disrepair. It will be many years before things get back to the way they used to be...........if ever.

Just my view of things.

It might be a lot worse down here if the Dems get in a US President
and remember which of the idiot English-speaking governments had their heads right up Bush's arse. And it wasn't the Canadians, who live next door to the US but have an inspirational sense of idependence.

Anyway, back to the topic, I gather that you've found the same division in Scandanavia that I perceive here, which is that people may be opposed to the US government but not to individual Americans.

[savoy6]

first off..let me say i love the title of this...no BS....

So bottom line..........Most ppl get along with the American ppl quite well. But I have meet very few ppl that like Bush at all. IMO he has damaged our foriegn policy almost to the point of disrepair. It will be many years before things get back to the way they used to be...........if ever.


amen..preach on brother sandworm...
the bush administration has set this country back in so many ways , both domestically ,and foreign policy wise, that i'm not sure america will ever be able to recover...
as far as folks not understanding us.....well, thats to be expected...

kinda like expecting democracy to work in places like iraq,russia,saudi arabia or afghanistan.

In Denamrk among my 14+ colleagues NO ONE (including my self) can say almost anything good about American politics. We have several nationalities in here me being the only one from a former Socialist country... So be informed.


neither can most folks here in america given that ,on average, only about 35-40% of eligible voters actually vote in any elections,if that.

most folks that i have met i differing parts of the world seem to not have a proplem with the american people per se' but many have problems with our goverment policies..especially lately....which is understandable.the only people that have a running problem with us as a people seem to be many islamic countries..but they have been yacking about how we are hell bound anyway for years before the current "war of terror"..(lol..thanks borat)

People here can not understand the American urge for guns, fast food and supporting war in Iraq.


wellll...let me answer the first two,since they are easier and more people than not here in the states have some level of problem with the war in iraq.

guns...well, i guess 'cause they are part of the american psyche..(as i sit here with a Colt SA .45 on my desk....lol..)
fast food..this is one habit that we as a nation need to drop, though i do like a good Super Sonic Jalapeno double cheeseburger once in a while...most folks like it because of convenience issues.with both spouses working in most two parent households it just easier to grab something on the way home for the family than go through the process of cooking dinner after both of you have been working....

[tankgeezer]

Americans as a people are too compilcated to easily understand, and no easier to explain. We are an intricate mix of cultures, and ideas. So the somewhat Amoebic way we do things is confusing to many other nation's people. As individuals, Americas can be even more confusing because of the many different people that make up our citizenry. There is considerable variation in the American populace, The U.S. being so large, that regional dialects, and customs will vary widely. So, If you happen to meet, and get to know 5 different Americans, you will find that they do not come from a "cookie cutter" society. The Gentleman from Austrailia is correct in saying "take them as you find them" .
As to the "urge for guns" I can tell you that this country was founded by people who had experienced the bad side of Governments in their native lands, and the possible need to protect ones self from The Government should it decide that it, doesnt need to ensure the freedom of the people. That is why the Constitution's first 10 Amendments spell out clearly, the rights of the citizenry ,and any future Gov'ts ability to change the rules set forth in the constituion. Whether the threat comes from within, or without, we will defend our country, and this constitution guarantees it. and you may own what firearmes you want , as many as you want, even automatic, and artillary are available to the any citizen not disqualified by criminal history.
Now as far as "fast food" goes, you got me there,,,, No one really knows why it sells so well here, its not that good, and fairly expensive. I like Pizza as much as the next guy, but I dont eat it everyday.. Though I do have to say that more and more fast food chains are moving into better quality, healtier foods these day. Americans are realizing that it is in their best interests to eat better than they have. There is a joke here that its not nessessary to use force of arms to take over a country, just set up McDonalds, and wal-mart, and that will do it.
We are all different, and if you met 10 thousand Americans, the 10thousand and first will still surprise you. Even Mr. Bush. and he will be gone from Washington in a couple years, and everyone will have somebody new to complain about..

[Firefly]

Hate Americans? Heck no. Some of my best friends are Americans. By Americans I take it you mean US citizens? For Americans surely come from the whole of America.

Niggly point I know, but it always makes me laugh and with that laugh is the crux of Americans. I have served and lived in many countries including the USA and in only that one do I here the words 'my fellow Americans' or 'we Americans' or citizens of America'. Nothing wrong with that in essence but I do think it points to one small problem with the USA. Your far to inward looking as a majority (sure I know many Americans who arent).

But this observation isnt enough to hate anyone, I may hate the government policy, as I may hate my owns. But hate the whole country? No. I think there is a lot of jealousy out there as we brits used to be hated the same 100 years ago for being in exactly the same position as the US is now, undisputed world champion that no other nation can interfere with.

In another 30 years we will all be saying who hates the Chinese and eating at Uncle Chins or something similar and hankering for the good old days when we didnt have to learn Cantonese to get along.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Your far to inward looking as a majority (sure I know many Americans who arent).

This is a major problem with Americans. Especially those from the interior US. Around the coasts and boarders ppl seem to be a bit more outward looking. Classic example is my father......1968 he was flunking out of college. My grandpa (ww2 vet) told him to join up to avoid being drafted and hence going to Vietnam. He did and 3 days later the N. Koreans siezed the USS Pueblo. So he was soon off to S. Korea for 18 months. No offense to the Koreans but was a pretty crappy place back then. So my dad just assumes that the rest of the world is like 68 S. Korea. :D All attempts to break this view have failed miserably.

I find it troublesome to speak with alot of the ppl from my area when i go back coz of my time abroad. Its kinda like hopping out of your body and watching yourself for awhile. You see a different story.


In another 30 years we will all be saying who hates the Chinese and eating at Uncle Chins or something similar and hankering for the good old days when we didnt have to learn Cantonese to get along.

I had enough trouble learning English (plus the broken bits of the Nordic langs and a bit of German) .........:D. Plus my handwriting is awful. Dont think ill be getting on with that language.

[Chevan]

Oh how many a excellent american guys in here ;)
I/m rather think we have to call this thread as " how much we misunderstand the USA and its policy".

I have to recognize that personaly me have no hate or any other problems with americans.Becouse i don't think the our difference ( that really exists) could be the problem.
I just have a few problem with some of american views toward the my country.:D

If i've understand right the all of americans blamed the Bush's external wrong policy.
So i have a copuple of questions:
-If the ameriacans really understand its responsibility for a safety in the world - why did they let him to begin this adventure in Iraq 4 years ago?I can't remember that somebody gived him a notice about danger in the invasion into Iraq.
- And why nowaday when the everybody has saw this was a mistake they blamed only Bush in this?Why has he became the only one "scapegoat" for this?
I mean why all those lobbies in the USA congress and gov (who voited for the operation "Iraq freedom" only 4 years ago and who spreaded the propoganda in mass media about " quick succesfull war") nowaday blamed the Bush in all sins?
BTW My personal oppinion is : if i was an american i would voited for the Bush- he is really like me becouse of his principial points, that nevertheles was a mistaken. But he at least behave himself more honestly inspite of "his basis".

Cheers.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Well IMO............Bush is not the sole "scapegoat" ........ many things throughout the last century have lead up to the disaster today. One thing alot of ppl in the US didnt understand or disregarded was President Eisenhowers warning about he US military industrial complex. MIC is the capitalist industry in the US which makes weapons of war. They dont dont near as well when no war is going on. Since Eisenhower made this speech just about every President since has had a military situation somewhere on the globe.

In so far as your question regarding why did we go to war in the 1st place. Alot of ppl will say we were dupped. I say we just didnt do our homework. I believe in the war in Afganistan........however I do not believe we should have ever gone into Iraq. Yet at the time.........I like most Americans was convinced they were a threat to our nation.

It would seem to me that most Americans get disgruntled with any conflict that lasts over 3-4 years. Even during WW2 many were not happy and were ready for the war to be over. Even some of my die hard Bush supporting friends have started to change their minds. Mostly the blame comes on Bush because he is the Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces. However........he should not be solely blamed for the current situation. Many others had their finger in the pie if you know what I mean.

Bad thing about being a US president. Anything goes wrong you take the blame. Even if its not your doing. Jimmy Carter is a classic example of getting a bad reputation for things that were out of his control.

[32Bravo]

It's easy to criticise - far too easy.
We are all different. Our differences sometimes seperate us, but when we come together and explore our differences, they serve to enrich us. As they do on this site.

[Gen. Sandworm]

2 documentaries that I totally recommend if you havent seen.

Why we fight. By the BBC.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=why+we+fight+bbc&hl=en

You can watch all 4 parts here.

Fog of war with former Sect. of Defense. Robert McNamara

Full movie here.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8653788864462752804&q=The+Fog+of+War

[32Bravo]

2 documentaries that I totally recommend if you havent seen.

Why we fight. By the BBC.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=why+we+fight+bbc&hl=en

You can watch all 4 parts here.

Fog of war with former Sect. of Defense. Robert McNamara

Full movie here.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8653788864462752804&q=The+Fog+of+War


Very excellent - thank you!

[RifleMan20]

I am a american and i know that almost every nation hates us mostly because of Bush and just to tell you I HATE BUSH (no offence to the peeps for bush) but he would of never gave us a good country name anyway of some kind, o and what are the new elections freking hillary cliton is in the race and just come on

[Gutkowski]

I too would like to see Bush out of office for a few reasons ;
His family's wealth came from BIG oil and look at the gas prices now. Is there a reason why the big oil company's have a profit of 300 billion dollars per quarter ?
Many people in Bush's administration have profited in many ways from the War. I don't dislike anyone anyone from different country's :) and I have a long list of different country's that I would like to visit in my life time if I can ever afford it lol.

[Chevan]

I too would like to see Bush out of office for a few reasons ;
His family's wealth came from BIG oil and look at the gas prices now. Is there a reason why the big oil company's have a profit of 300 billion dollars per quarter ?


agree. Its obvious the some peoples in his administration are geting profit from oil in this war.
The two of the worstest things in this situation IMO - the simple peoples get the rising the prise for the gasoline, and the arad world get the additional money to continie its dirty spread of islamism. So we have the two ridicilous points in here -Bush fight with terrorism in Iraq , but the sponsor of terrorism Iran&ko get the profit of this war.

[Chevan]

In so far as your question regarding why did we go to war in the 1st place. Alot of ppl will say we were dupped. I say we just didnt do our homework. I believe in the war in Afganistan........however I do not believe we should have ever gone into Iraq. Yet at the time.........I like most Americans was convinced they were a threat to our nation.

Thanks Gen for the frankness.
But i have no idea how could the Iraq has threated the USA;)

It would seem to me that most Americans get disgruntled with any conflict that lasts over 3-4 years. Even during WW2 many were not happy and were ready for the war to be over. Even some of my die hard Bush supporting friends have started to change their minds. Mostly the blame comes on Bush because he is the Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces. However........he should not be solely blamed for the current situation. Many others had their finger in the pie if you know what I mean.

That's exactly what i mean in my previous post Gen ;)
Sure you right too much of other peoples has thiir fingers in the pie.I know it from the our russian experience in the 1994-96 during the first chechen compain.

Bad thing about being a US president. Anything goes wrong you take the blame. Even if its not your doing. Jimmy Carter is a classic example of getting a bad reputation for things that were out of his control.
Absolutly agree.
The presiden Yeltsyn deserved his reputation for the events that he could not controlled.

[Rising Sun*]

on average, only about 35-40% of eligible voters actually vote in any elections,if that.

I've never understood that. In the nation which has consistently been the strongest advocate for democracy (although often somewhat hypocritically, e.g. Chile anti-Allende / pro-Pinochet; much of Hussein's reign in Iraq), and has the strongest working democratic constitution which is given real teeth in practice by the Supreme Court and the people, most people still aren't interested in participating in the most basic element of modern democracy at the ballot box.

I don't know whether it indicates that a lot of people feel disconnected from the political process; that they realise that both major parties are essentially parties of the centre and a change of government doesn't necessarily have much direct impact on the individual; or that the democracy is so strong they feel they don't need to participate. Any ideas?

Down here, we have compulsory voting. You don't vote, or at least you don't attend a polling booth and get your name crossed off the roll, you get fined. It's where democracy and authoritarianism meet. I haven't noticed that it's any more successful than optional voting systems in producing better governments, given that ours has been run by Shrub (a small Bush) for over a decade. :D It just means that more people are forced to be responsible for bad decisions. :D

"war of terror"..(lol..thanks borat)

Beats me how he got out of that rodeo alive, especially after singing the Kazakhstan anthem to the tune of the American one. And that horse falling over at exactly the right moment was brilliant. One of the funniest things I've ever seen, even if I was squirming the whole time.

[Gen. Sandworm]

I guess this is turning to a thread on President Bush. I think Bush is doing a good job, the only place I think he screwed up on big time is the dang illegal immigration policy, he is leaving our borders wide open. I say sheriff Joe Arpaio for President.... Go Joe,.
http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetModule&mn=Sheriff_Bio

Well I dont think ppl are going to trash you for liking Bush.........just think you will find most dont agree.

Funny seems some of his ideas have resorted back to cold war and ancient ideas. Building walls. He wants one on the boarder with Mexico and another inBaghdad. Im sorry but walls never work out. This is silly. People have to approach this problem differently. I dont want to see the United States of Former Mexican Citizens either. :D However we are a nation of immigrints so...........

BTW this is a common problem accross Europe ive run into. Just about every country is getting pissed about the amount of foreigners in the country.

To Rising Sun:

I think alot of Americans are getting pissed coz of the powers of the 2 system party. Or at least the 2 parties that really do much. And the choice most of the time is between 2 morons. Although the independents are starting to play a much bigger factor than in the past. The whole system need to be revised IMO. Last election I didnt vote coz Indiana hasnt gone democrat since FDR or something like that. What really pisses me off is the hand full of ppl that won the popular vote but didnt win the presidency coz of this stupid electorial college.

And one more thing..........to all Americans..........dont use the electronic voting machines. Boycott them. One of the guys that wrote the source code for them admited before congress that they could be tampered with and no one would know untill you went almost line by line thru the code. Which the company wont release coz they have the patent. OMGWTFBBQ! :evil:

K thats my rantings and ravings for today!

[Rising Sun*]

BTW this is a common problem accross Europe ive run into. Just about every country is getting pissed about the amount of foreigners in the country.

You want to see xenophobia as an election winning policy? Get down here.

None of this would be a problem if all the people in the world could just get over their narrow nationalistic, religious and other divisive attitudes and accept that we all have a common interest in harmonious survival.

I just read my last sentence. I've just realised that I've had far too much to drink and have drifted way beyond the realm of fantasy. :)

Why would humans ever choose a pleasant life over death and destruction?

Next I'll be on about ebony and ivory living together in perfect harmony. :confused:

Or nonsense such as: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

What sort of world would that be. :(


To Rising Sun:

And the choice most of the time is between 2 morons.

Lucky you!

We have wider choices, as independents and minor parties can get the balance of power here.

Sometimes we have the choice between two morons and a drongo. If the drongo gets the balance of power, the minority drongo gets to make the decisions by voting with one of the major morons.

I just Googled 'drongo' so you'd have a clearer explanation than I might give (every Australian knows what it means, but it's hard to explain). Joy of joys, I was rewarded with an unusually apt statement from Wiki:

"In Australian slang, the word drongo is a synonym for a total loser or idiot. Like most Australian slang the meaning of the word changes with the way it's said.

In the Bush Dance sometimes called the drongo the person who misses out on a partner (musical chairs style} becomes 'the drongo' for the next time through the dance and is the butt of a gentle humorous use of the word - spill hot soup in a customer's lap and you may hear a distinctly vitriolic use!" :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drongo

[Gun Plumber]

Well, I don't mind our Colonial friends the Yanks. :D

[32Bravo]

All our imperfect democratic systems. perhaps, we should revert to a ruling monarch? :)

I think the USA is, generally, a benevolent country.

It will be interesting to see how well China fares, when it takes over the role, has the world's super-power?

[SuperTroll]

As an american I can't blame every bad impression of Americans on the President; I've traveled the world both as a civilian and a soldier, and the term "Ugly American" is oft justified due to the boorish behavior of a LOT of idiotic tourists who can't seem to see beyond the end of their noses....

Rudeness based on ignorance is doubly damning...failure to appreciate the differences in culture and national politics is indicative of short sightedness and again, ignorance. For every dolt any of you have had to contend with I sincerely apologize....

As for the occasional person I meet on my travels, who hates Americans for being American, where it is possible to engage them in a civil conversation, I oft find the cause of their vitrol based (in large part) on media representation of Americans, reinforced by a bad personal experience with one of those Dolts I described earlier....sad to say that a few bad apples tend to ruin things for the rest.....

Truth is; I do not control the Government of My Country any more than they control theirs....I actually understand their disdain, although it is often misdirected at individuals.

[savoy6]

the reason that many younger people don't vote is that with the lobbyists and special interest groups running up and down the halls of the capitol waiting with a cellphone so that a crony in the visitors gallery can call them to let them know that the one hold out congressperson is headed to the bathroom before the next vote so the lobbyist can bottonhole them on their way to the head to get them to change their vote....younger people see elected officials mouthing the stuff their party spouts but then when they get in, the status quo stays the same..i really doesn't matter which side you vote for you still get the same result....so many don't bother..

[Flammpanzer]

many older germans are thankful regarding the USA. after the war it was mainly the US that helped a lot to build up this smashed country again.

among the younger germans there are - on the other side - some that are really pissed with bushs politics, f. e. the pollution of the enviroment (namely the Kyoto protocoll, which is not signed by the US until now) is a problem, indeed.

I personally like the americans for their cars (I own a chrysler and adore old detroit iron), their wonderful country, their patriotism (which totally lacks here) and their relaxed habits. I visited the states two times and I cannot tell too many bad things about the yanks. the only incident we hat there was with east-german (!) iditots, that occupied a billiard-table a whole evening long and so some kind of a nearly-fight started.

jens

[32Bravo]

the reason that many younger people don't vote is that with the lobbyists and special interest groups running up and down the halls of the capitol waiting with a cellphone so that a crony in the visitors gallery can call them to let them know that the one hold out congressperson is headed to the bathroom before the next vote so the lobbyist can bottonhole them on their way to the head to get them to change their vote....younger people see elected officials mouthing the stuff their party spouts but then when they get in, the status quo stays the same..i really doesn't matter which side you vote for you still get the same result....so many don't bother..

Yes, I see where you are coming from. However, lobbying is a part of the democratic process, and can be rather exciting if one gets involved. One of the differences with the UK and the US is that the US is a vaster country, and, I presume, it is less easy for many people to pop accross to D.C.to do some lobbying - but then again, I would think they are able to lobby their Senators?

My personal belief is that if one has the right to vote, one should exercise that right. There are many people in the world that would give their right arm for an opportunity to exercise such a right. We, in the UK, have small independant parties e.g. The Raving Monster Luny Party. These parties enter candidates for election in many of the constituancies. They must pay a deposit (I forget the exact amount, but it isn't much), if they fail to get a certain number of votes, they lose their deposit, if they acquire the minimum, they get their deposit back. These parties, in my opinion, do a great job, becausethey enable people to enter a protest vote. The better these parties do in an election, the greater the signal to the major parties that people are pissed off with them. Even voting for them is better than not voting. The democratic system of the UK has been a long time in the making, and votes ought not wasted by abstaining.

It seems to me, that your two major parties in the US are very similar. It also seems rather bizarre, that the loser of an election will ask the nation to support the winner - John Kerry in his speech conceding defeat asking the nation to get behing George Bush - that is totaly alien to us in the UK. Can anyone imagine, for instance, Margaret Thatcher losing to Tony Blair, and asking the nation to support him - what!!! :D

Seriously, I understand why that happens - head of state and all - but it wouldn't/couldn't work for us. Conflict of interests. The two major British parties don't appear to be very different to each other, right now, but we have to compare policy. We feel we need a change of government. It just isn't healthy to keep the same party in power for too long.

[Firefly]

I agree with this statement 100%. Also I think a lot of people dislike or hate what they cannot have. We cant be that bad because why do so many people want to come here to live?

You have a great point there, you arent that bad. I'd rather live in the US than lots of other countries. The US may have appeared to have lost its way but its a far better place to live and bring up your family than most of the countries in the world. When we look at the news regarding the US we that dont live there tend to see the bad things, but in reality I think the good things far outweight the bad. Thats not to say I agree with US policy or that I think its better to live in the US than the UK (cause I dont think its better not to live in the UK). But for the most part I do think its better to live in the US than anywhere else except Western Europe, which has essentially the same ethos.

[deserter]

I'm an american and I would rather live in Canada. However it's more important to me to be near my kids and grandkids and so I continue to live here. Well, at least the weather is better down here.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Well we make alot of mistakes but we try our best!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6637549.stm

:D

[32Bravo]

. Thats not to say I agree with US policy or that I think its better to live in the US than the UK (cause I dont think its better not to live in the UK). But for the most part I do think its better to live in the US than anywhere else except Western Europe, which has essentially the same ethos.


"I don't know half of you half as well as I'd like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" :D

I have American friends and family. When they first came to visit, they couldn't or, rather, wouldn't understand why I wouldn't prefer to live in the U.S. than in England. After being here a little while and visiting places beyond London, they came, at first, to understand, and then, to wish they could live here also.

[royal744]

Well IMO............Bush is not the sole "scapegoat" ........ many things throughout the last century have lead up to the disaster today. One thing alot of ppl in the US didnt understand or disregarded was President Eisenhowers warning about he US military industrial complex. MIC is the capitalist industry in the US which makes weapons of war. They dont dont near as well when no war is going on. Since Eisenhower made this speech just about every President since has had a military situation somewhere on the globe.

In so far as your question regarding why did we go to war in the 1st place. Alot of ppl will say we were dupped. I say we just didnt do our homework. I believe in the war in Afganistan........however I do not believe we should have ever gone into Iraq. Yet at the time.........I like most Americans was convinced they were a threat to our nation.

It would seem to me that most Americans get disgruntled with any conflict that lasts over 3-4 years. Even during WW2 many were not happy and were ready for the war to be over. Even some of my die hard Bush supporting friends have started to change their minds. Mostly the blame comes on Bush because he is the Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces. However........he should not be solely blamed for the current situation. Many others had their finger in the pie if you know what I mean.

Bad thing about being a US president. Anything goes wrong you take the blame. Even if its not your doing. Jimmy Carter is a classic example of getting a bad reputation for things that were out of his control.


When I was 7 years old, I spoke not a word of English, yet found myself, along with my family, in the tiny town of Kerrville in the heart of theTexas Hill Country. We were little Dutch boys and the locals couldn't have been more courteous and hospitable if they tried, which they did a lot of. The Texas Hill Country above San Antonio for those who don't know it, is a primarily German-settled part of Texas with towns called Friedrichsberg (Fredericksburg), Wolfahrt (Welfare), Bergheim (Mountain Home) and so on. In the 1890s, if you didn't speak German in San Antonio, you couldn't get elected to public office! These were Germans descended from German free thinkers who emigrated to Texas well before the civil war, and who politely refused to go along with the Confederacy when it seceded from the Union in 1860. For this singular act of civil disobedience, Confederate raiders massacred a lot of military age German boys. Unlike much of the rest of Texas, you will find no monuments to the Confederacy in the Texas Hill Country.

America is a stunning patchwork of people and races, languages, religions and beliefs. I usually resent those who generalize about "Americans" because they often don't know what they are talking about, just as I resent those Americans who talk about "Europeans" as if they were one people with a single history. There is much ignorance about Americans in the world and much that we Americans have to learn about the world. To generalize and say that the people on the borders are more outward looking than those on the interior is rather funny, considering that Americans do a phenomenal amount of traveling, not only in their own country which is big enough, but outside of its borders as well. Here I sit in San Antonio and I have traveled all over the world, as has my wife and my brothers and my children. We know where the land stops and the ocean begins, believe me.

The trouble with all generalizations, including this one, is that they are as often wrong as right.

[royal744]

I've never understood that. In the nation which has consistently been the strongest advocate for democracy (although often somewhat hypocritically, e.g. Chile anti-Allende / pro-Pinochet; much of Hussein's reign in Iraq), and has the strongest working democratic constitution which is given real teeth in practice by the Supreme Court and the people, most people still aren't interested in participating in the most basic element of modern democracy at the ballot box.

I don't know whether it indicates that a lot of people feel disconnected from the political process; that they realise that both major parties are essentially parties of the centre and a change of government doesn't necessarily have much direct impact on the individual; or that the democracy is so strong they feel they don't need to participate. Any ideas?

Sigh, Rising Sun, the low voting numbers has been and continues to be a problem in this country. Partly it is the choice between tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee, although I would submit that the last mid-term elections demonstrated convincingly that the people do want a change and are willing to get off their derrieres and vote for one. Whether or not it actually produces a change is another matter entirely.

It's interesting that the Right, or the "Conservatives", especially the Christian Right which has captured the Republican Party, voted George Bush into office the 2nd time. The first time, the election was pretty clearly stolen from Al Gore, but that is my opinion buttressed by a whole lot of evidence. What I find interesting about this is that Bush - we call him "Shrub" too, RS because by comparison his father makes him look like stunted vegetation - is not really a conservative at all. He's merely an opportunist who took on the coloring of whatever group could get him into the White House.

He was my governor here in Texas and I did meet him a couple of times, but he wouldn't know me from Adam. He has a lot of personal charm, which is not the same thing as charisma. Texas governors actually have little or no power. The Lt. Governor has all the power. This is an artifact left over from the Reconstruction period following the Civil War.

He did very little as governor and was at least as unqualified to be governor as he was to be president. Only as president, he permitted himself to become the tool of people like Cheney, Perle and Wolfowitz, not to mention Rumsfeld. These folks definitely had a "neo-conservative" agenda but also didn't know what they were doing. Beware the idealogues.

The famous conservative Senator Taft would be aghast at what Bush has wrought in office. He has spent the nation blind ands brought us to the brink of bankruptcy - not exactly a conservative idea. He has steadfastly kept our southern border wide open to the crossing of illegal aliens, aslo not exactly a conservative idea. He has attacked the civil rights of ordinary citizens and made them subject to domestic spying which conservatives would traditionally have frothed at the mouth over. Attacks on privacy are not a traditionally conservative idea.

He has packed the Supreme Court with charlatans and tried to impose another such clown, Harriett Miers on the country before it finally balked. He has an Attorney General who is as supine as a latex doormat who had the unmitigated gall to call the Geneva Convention "quaint", and who sanctioned spying on his own people.

Perhaps worst of all, he attacked a country "just because he wanted to". Since there was zero evidence of WMD - widely known and recognized by people and governments all over the world - and actively pursued perverting the findings of his own intelligence community, he lied to his own people with the finesse and aplomb of others in history who lived in places where they speak a guttural central European tongue and a Slavic one extending well into northern Asia. He created a situation as a result of his stupendous ignorance that now has allowed Iran to move into Iraq, a country that fought an 8 year war against Iran. He has allowed moslem fundamentalists to gain the upper hand everywhere, and, because his Iraq invasion drained away necessary resources, he is in the process of losing Afghanistan, the only part of this that I did support.

The definition of a Greek tragedy is that the protagonist is brought down by his own failings. Settle back folks, we are watching this in action big time. It won't take history long to render its verdict on what is in my opinion, the rock bottom absolute worst president in all of American history.

The Republicans will not win the next presidential contest if they put up Jesus Christ as their next candidate. It's over.

[royal744]

I've never understood that. In the nation which has consistently been the strongest advocate for democracy (although often somewhat hypocritically, e.g. Chile anti-Allende / pro-Pinochet; much of Hussein's reign in Iraq), and has the strongest working democratic constitution which is given real teeth in practice by the Supreme Court and the people, most people still aren't interested in participating in the most basic element of modern democracy at the ballot box.

I don't know whether it indicates that a lot of people feel disconnected from the political process; that they realise that both major parties are essentially parties of the centre and a change of government doesn't necessarily have much direct impact on the individual; or that the democracy is so strong they feel they don't need to participate. Any ideas?

Sigh, Rising Sun, the low voting numbers has been and continues to be a problem in this country. Partly it is the choice between tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee, although I would submit that the last mid-term elections demonstrated convincingly that the people do want a change and are willing to get off their derrieres and vote for one. Whether or not it actually produces a change is another matter entirely.

It's interesting that the Right, or the "Conservatives", especially the Christian Right which has captured the Republican Party, voted George Bush into office the 2nd time. The first time, the election was pretty clearly stolen from Al Gore, but that is my opinion buttressed by a whole lot of evidence. What I find interesting about this is that Bush - we call him "Shrub" too, RS because by comparison his father makes him look like stunted vegetation - is not really a conservative at all. He's merely an opportunist who took on the coloring of whatever group could get him into the White House.

He was my governor here in Texas and I did meet him a couple of times, but he wouldn't know me from Adam. He has a lot of personal charm, which is not the same thing as charisma. Texas governors actually have little or no power. The Lt. Governor has all the power. This is an artifact left over from the Reconstruction period following the Civil War.

He did very little as governor and was at least as unqualified to be governor as he was to be president. Only as president, he permitted himself to become the tool of people like Cheney, Perle and Wolfowitz, not to mention Rumsfeld. These folks definitely had a "neo-conservative" agenda but also didn't know what they were doing. Beware the idealogues.

The famous conservative Senator Taft would be aghast at what Bush has wrought in office. He has spent the nation blind ands brought us to the brink of bankruptcy - not exactly a conservative idea. He has steadfastly kept our southern border wide open to the crossing of illegal aliens, also not exactly a conservative idea. He has attacked the civil rights of ordinary citizens and made them subject to domestic spying which conservatives would traditionally have frothed at the mouth over. Attacks on privacy are not a traditionally conservative idea.

He has packed the Supreme Court with charlatans and tried to impose another such clown, Harriett Miers on the country before it finally balked. He has an Attorney General who is as supine as a latex doormat who had the unmitigated gall to call the Geneva Convention "quaint", and who sanctioned spying on his own people.

Perhaps worst of all, he attacked a country "just because he wanted to". Since there was zero evidence of WMD - widely known and recognized by people and governments all over the world - and actively pursued perverting the findings of his own intelligence community, he lied to his own people with the finesse and aplomb of others in history who lived in places where they speak a guttural central European tongue and a Slavic one extending well into northern Asia.

The definition of a Greek tragedy is that the protagonist is brought down by his own failings. Settle back folks, we are watching this in action big time. It won't take history long to render its verdict on what is in my opinion, the rock bottom absolute worst president in all of American history. The Republicans will not win the next presidential contest if they put up Jesus Christ as their next candidate. It's over.

Having said this, I believe that many people all over the world think the American government has lost its mind, and are hoping against hope that it recovers its equilibrium soon. It will.

[royal744]

I've never understood that. In the nation which has consistently been the strongest advocate for democracy (although often somewhat hypocritically, e.g. Chile anti-Allende / pro-Pinochet; much of Hussein's reign in Iraq), and has the strongest working democratic constitution which is given real teeth in practice by the Supreme Court and the people, most people still aren't interested in participating in the most basic element of modern democracy at the ballot box.

It's an old constitution and it's a good one and it works well as long as everyone respects it. President Bush, quoted by Bob Woodward who heard it from another source, said, "It's just a piece of paper." There you go. Now we know where he stands.

But, Rising Sun, there have been many lapses in our steadfast belief in democracy over the decades. The US conspired in the creation of the Panama Canal by tearing Panama away from its rightful owner. Yes, it's true. The US fought the Spanish American War largely based on faked threats hyped around by William Randolph Hearst and the probably accidental explosion of the Battleship Maine in Havana harbor. Sound familiar? It should. It's happened before.

We didn't keep Cuba. We did keep Puerto Rico. Ditto the Phillipines.

The US conspired with the United Fruit Company in Central America to overthrow several regimes, and of course our history with Mexico has been anything but spotless and squeaky clean. Not that others were any better, but that isn't the point of this submission.

We overthrew the legal monarchy in the Hawaiian Islands and created a US territory out of it. We sailed into Manila harbor and after sinking the Spanish ships there, simply took it over, finally ceding independence 50 years later.

During the Cold War we made many alliances with and supported unsavory dictators all over the world purely based on their anti-communism, not the least of which was Vietnam. John Foster Dulles saw nothing wrong with this and Eisenhower supported him, aided also by Dulles' brother, Allen Dulles who was then the head of the CIA.

I wish our history was spotless where democracy was concerned. They don't teach this stuff in high school - too 'disturbing' for the kiddies. But the information is out there for anyone who wants to look.

Even with this knowledge, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I'd rather stay and fight it out and make it better.

[Rising Sun*]

I agree with that Royal, When I read the title of this post I thought it was rather goofy and a little rude but after reading several of the authors posts it seems to me he has a rather large chip on his shoulder.

I'm the author.

I don't understand your point.

Would you care to elaborate?

[Rising Sun*]

royal744

All that you say is true (I feel like the Outlaw Josey Wales in saying that), but against that we have to balance the great good that America has presented to and done in the world.

But before going on to that, it needs to be remembered that what America did in South America and the Philippines etc before WWII wasn't any worse, and it might even be argued was better, than other major powers did in acquiring and running their colonies. We should judge America's old actions by the standards of the time.

Post-WWII Germany and Japan could have been re-runs of WWI if America hadn't seen the errors of the past and implemented and very generously supported reconstruction plans, and if MacArthur, for all his many faults, hadn't been so adroit in running the Occupation in Japan.

The UN, which now is reviled by the US Administration (and not without some reason), was largely an American creation and largely supported by America as part of a vision for a better world. It's not America's fault that shitty little dictatorships and bankrupt states around the planet have the same vote as decent and rational nations which aren't being bought off by Chinese money in the Pacific and so on.

Despite the usual stacking of the Supreme Court which all administrations do, the fact remains that the Court has generally been a bulwark against the excesses of administrations and has generally preserved the liberties enshrined in the US Constitution. These liberties are enjoyed by almost nobody else on the planet.

And, funny though it may seem to say this, the principles of American liberty projected through countless Hollywood films over the past ten or fifteen years which border on laughable propaganda still hold out an ideal for which many people yearn, even if the US fails to deliver it to its own people at times and has consistently denied those freedoms to people who opposed repressive regimes which the US supported.

Never has America, or any other English-speaking country, supported or done anything even remotely like the oppressive and murderous acts of the regimes to which America has been opposed during and since WWII. Which is not to say that there have not been many bad acts in the field.

America’s problem is that it is judged by the high standards of its lofty principles, which it has failed in some instances to observe, from My Lai to Abu Ghraib to rendition.

The difference is that America, when finally forced to act on such matters, has dealt with them according to its principles and in accordance with law, as exemplified by the David Hicks matter where USMC Major Michael (Dan) Mori did a stunning job for his client. And is being duly punished by the military system for doing it so well, which shows the other side of the freedom coin.

There were countless VC Calleys killing and literally ripping the guts out of hamlet chiefs in Vietnam to terrify the inhabitants into supporting the VC, as there were far worse acts at Abu Ghraib under Hussein than anything the Americans did. Nobody in those regimes had any problem with such acts. No matter how much it wished to avoid confronting these issues, when forced to deal with them America dealt with them in ways which could not have occurred under the other regimes, because ultimately what happened offended American principles and the people who offended those principles were dealt with. It wouldn‘t have happened in those countries according to their usual principles and practices.

If America’s many failings were judged by the standards of places like pre-invasion Iraq or pre-invasion Afghanistan or current Zimbabwe or countless other vicious shitholes, America wouldn’t even register on the bad nation radar.

America might be a long way short of perfect, but it’s still a shining light in a world with a lot of grey and darkness.

Almost as good as Australia, which truly is the best place to live. :D

[Rising Sun*]

I think I got my point across about my opinion didnt I ?

If you did, I wouldn't be seeking clarification.

I have no idea what your point is.

What, specifically, have I said to offend you?

[Rising Sun*]

Did you not understand Goofy or Rude?

Yes, I do.

You're the only person, including several Americans, in a rather long-standing thread who seems to have a problem with me and my opinions.

So, again, please specify your difficulties with my position and I will respond.

[royal744]

royal744

All that you say is true (I feel like the Outlaw Josey Wales in saying that), but against that we have to balance the great good that America has presented to and done in the world.

But before going on to that, it needs to be remembered that what America did in South America and the Philippines etc before WWII wasn't any worse, and it might even be argued was better, than other major powers did in acquiring and running their colonies. We should judge America's old actions by the standards of the time.

Post-WWII Germany and Japan could have been re-runs of WWI if America hadn't seen the errors of the past and implemented and very generously supported reconstruction plans, and if MacArthur, for all his many faults, hadn't been so adroit in running the Occupation in Japan.

The UN, which now is reviled by the US Administration (and not without some reason), was largely an American creation and largely supported by America as part of a vision for a better world. It's not America's fault that shitty little dictatorships and bankrupt states around the planet have the same vote as decent and rational nations which aren't being bought off by Chinese money in the Pacific and so on.

Despite the usual stacking of the Supreme Court which all administrations do, the fact remains that the Court has generally been a bulwark against the excesses of administrations and has generally preserved the liberties enshrined in the US Constitution. These liberties are enjoyed by almost nobody else on the planet.

And, funny though it may seem to say this, the principles of American liberty projected through countless Hollywood films over the past ten or fifteen years which border on laughable propaganda still hold out an ideal for which many people yearn, even if the US fails to deliver it to its own people at times and has consistently denied those freedoms to people who opposed repressive regimes which the US supported.

Never has America, or any other English-speaking country, supported or done anything even remotely like the oppressive and murderous acts of the regimes to which America has been opposed during and since WWII. Which is not to say that there have not been many bad acts in the field.

America’s problem is that it is judged by the high standards of its lofty principles, which it has failed in some instances to observe, from My Lai to Abu Ghraib to rendition.

The difference is that America, when finally forced to act on such matters, has dealt with them according to its principles and in accordance with law, as exemplified by the David Hicks matter where USMC Major Michael (Dan) Mori did a stunning job for his client. And is being duly punished by the military system for doing it so well, which shows the other side of the freedom coin.

There were countless VC Calleys killing and literally ripping the guts out of hamlet chiefs in Vietnam to terrify the inhabitants into supporting the VC, as there were far worse acts at Abu Ghraib under Hussein than anything the Americans did. Nobody in those regimes had any problem with such acts. No matter how much it wished to avoid confronting these issues, when forced to deal with them America dealt with them in ways which could not have occurred under the other regimes, because ultimately what happened offended American principles and the people who offended those principles were dealt with. It wouldn‘t have happened in those countries according to their usual principles and practices.

If America’s many failings were judged by the standards of places like pre-invasion Iraq or pre-invasion Afghanistan or current Zimbabwe or countless other vicious shitholes, America wouldn’t even register on the bad nation radar.

America might be a long way short of perfect, but it’s still a shining light in a world with a lot of grey and darkness.

Almost as good as Australia, which truly is the best place to live. :D

Thanks, Rising Sun! I'll go with your take on it! I agree that actions in the past should be seen through lenses ground at the time. I just didn't want anyone to think that Americans are unaware of the blemishes on their history. Far from it.

[Rising Sun*]

Thanks, Rising Sun! I'll go with your take on it! I agree that actions in the past should be seen through lenses ground at the time. I just didn't want anyone to think that Americans are unaware of the blemishes on their history. Far from it.

We all have blemishes on our national histories.

I may have made this point elsewhere on this forum, or perhaps somewhere else, but the opposition to apartheid in South Africa exemplifies the double standards in judging nations as currently applied to America over Iraq and related issues.

South Africa rightly copped a lot of flak from Western liberals, human rights activists, and right-thinking people for its apartheid and racist policies and practices.

Yet none of those noble people got wound up about far, far, far worse abuses in Angola and other African countries where pillage, rape and butchery were often the order of the day and, worse, were authorised, encouraged and pursued by the national governments. None of them get wound up about what a spectacular human rights and crime FUBAR South Africa has become since it got rid of the old white regime.

Why not?

Because of the unconscious racism, just as bad as or worse than the white South Africans’ racism, in the minds of the critics opposing racism.

They expected white South Africans to behave better, but didn’t expect anything better than pillage, rape, butchery, crime and denials of human rights from black Africans. So the whites got roundly criticised for their failure to observe white standards but the blacks’ failure even to approach those standards was ignored.

Similar unstated prejudices, which assume that Americans as representatives of European and Enlightenment values are superior to Arabs and the like, apply now to Iraq and related issues.

People, rightly, get wound up about American bad behaviour at Abu Ghraib etc. But where were they when Saddam was running the place as a serious torture chamber and murder farm? Now that they know what happened there, why aren’t they calling for the Iraqi bastards who ran it then to be hunted down now and prosecuted with the same vigour as the lesser American bastards who mistreated prisoners there? Why aren’t these advocates for justice getting their knickers in a knot (‘panties in a twist’ for American viewers) about the many far worse regimes oppressing and thoroughly buggering up much of the third world? Why do they make such a big deal about America being responsible for, according to Nancy Pelosi tonight, maybe 100,000 Iraqis killed since America, Britain and Australia invaded Iraq? FFS, who killed them? In almost all cases, other Iraqis or Arabs or Muslims. Whose fault is that? Whose fault is it that the insurgents target the organs of a well organised civil society, such as the police, and the medical staff and hospitals needed to deal with their depredations? Who is trying to destroy Iraq?

Not America, despite having got into Iraq on a bad premise.

But the self-appointed guardians of all that is pure and noble reserve their sanctimonious moral indignation for America. Not Britain, which had a fairly large part in it, and not Australia, which was insignificant but equally culpable morally.

Why doesn’t an Iraqi or other Arab or Muslim bastard who goes to a recruiting point for the desperate unemployed in Iraq and attracts them to his truck before blowing up 60 or 100 of them generate any anger from the advocates for justice and purity of motive? Because they don’t expect any better of the people they see, as with Angola and black Africa a generation ago, as primitive and inherently brutal people in Iraq, who don’t matter. Except as statistics to berate America.

If the high-minded consciences of the Western World were as consistent and as active in their opposition to all forms of abusing people in all countries, instead of focusing on America as the supposed fount of all that is wrong with the world, there’d be a lot less suffering in the world.

If anyone thinks I’ve lost the plot and am out of touch with what is going on, there are people a lot more disturbed than me. Today I saw in an Australian university a poster for a (non-academic - it was a socialist club*) lecture on how America caused al Qaeda to exist and to fly planes into the twin towers. This crew of certifiable idiots can be relied upon to be in the forefront of anti-American and anti-everything activity and to be at every protest against everything, unless the protest happens to conflict with the day they pick up their dole cheques when they take money from the society they are doing their best to destroy while doing bugger-all to contribute anything of worth to it.

* It was the Socialist Alternative, which has long been prominent on Australian campuses in its own tiny mind. On some campuses it numbers members in the, believe it or not, low double digits. However, according to other posters I saw today, the Socialist Alternative is under challenge by LOUD, which proclaims itself as, literally, ‘the alternative to the Socialist Alternative‘. I’d join, but I’m waiting for the alternative to the alternative to the alternative to the socialists. I don’t want to get too close to real socialists. :D

[royal744]

I'd like to put the issue of Bush aside for a moment and just reflect on the fact that when I first went abroad on an extended trip back in 1965 (might have been a year earlier!), the world seemed to love Americans. Even then, though, I encountered someone in Greece who gesticulated with his hands and made machine-gun sounds and then said "Lyndon Johnson", implying, one supposes that it was he who was behind Kennedy's death. That singular event shocked me and I guess it shocked the whole world. I went abroad again, this time for two years, to North Africa and thoroughly enjoyed myself and again had a positive experience as an American in an Arab country where everyone seemed to be studying English, lol. I have been abroad many times since then and I have noticed a certain cooling towards us as a people. I am saddened at how far we seem to have fallen in the eyes of the world, but I am unsure if this is a reality or just a perception on the parts of others. I sometimes wonder if we haven't squandered the enormous reserve of goodwill that so many in the world had towards us. Can we point to the aftermath of 9-11, or perhaps invading a country that had not attacked us as the starting point of this decline? I don't know, but I do wonder with some trepidation what the future holds.

[Chevan]

Thank you both guys Rising Sun and royal for the frank stories.

People, rightly, get wound up about American bad behaviour at Abu Ghraib etc. But where were they when Saddam was running the place as a serious torture chamber and murder farm? Now that they know what happened there, why aren’t they calling for the Iraqi bastards who ran it then to be hunted down now and prosecuted with the same vigour as the lesser American bastards who mistreated prisoners there? Why aren’t these advocates for justice getting their knickers in a knot (‘panties in a twist’ for American viewers) about the many far worse regimes oppressing and thoroughly buggering up much of the third world? Why do they make such a big deal about America being responsible for, according to Nancy Pelosi tonight, maybe 100,000 Iraqis killed since America, Britain and Australia invaded Iraq? FFS, who killed them? In almost all cases, other Iraqis or Arabs or Muslims. Whose fault is that? Whose fault is it that the insurgents target the organs of a well organised civil society, such as the police, and the medical staff and hospitals needed to deal with their depredations? Who is trying to destroy Iraq?

Not America, despite having got into Iraq on a bad premise
That's true.
but this is only one side of medal;)And not the most brilliant...
The bloody civil and relogious war of in Iraq was possible ONLY after elimination of "brutal Saddam" who at least hold the Iraq far from a civil war.
Invading the Iraq , Americans should be understand they invade a region with mostly hostile population - not as much Iraq( 25 mln) as Syria(18 mln) and Iran(66 mln). The naive hopes of politicans for the "little victorious" war was a great adventure.
Another bad thing ws the illusion of "internation support" of this adventure.
The "international" Coalition - where the 90% are the Americans is a more political action then the real war help.As the resault now, when as its obvious the "allies' try to leave the USA alone.
Cheers.

[Digger]

Once again I've had an enforced break from this forum and I have missed much.:( This is an excellent thread, thanks Rising Sun, but it does exemplify that ordinary people everywhere, no matter the country in which they live are basically the same.

The real differing view occurs at the political level or to throw another factor in-Hollywood. I'm not joking when I say Hollywood has at times been responsible for making America a laughing stock.

I must congratulate royal744, you've stolen my thunder a fair bit, but Bush created this mess, purely by allowing the likes of Rumsfeld call the tune. What an insidious character he is and how Bush missed the point at the time of The Revolt Of The Generals and allowed him to continue his position I'll never know.

I don't believe Bush is a bad or evil man, and perhaps if there had not been a 9/11 he might have been a fair president, heck he might have been better than Clinton(another abysmal failure). However a president is only as good as his advisors and let's face it the Neo-Cons who surrounded Bush have appalling records in pushing their own agendas, much to the cost of America and ordinary Americans.

Yes, I know many Americans and I can honestly say except for one exception they are wonderful, kind people, and I cannot judge them because of the inadequacies of their political system.

Regards digger.

[Gen. Sandworm]

... heck he might have been better than Clinton(another abysmal failure)...


I dont see Clinton as a failure. Depends how you regard foreign politics. Clinton did a much better job at this then Dubya has done. Bush has seen the height of best regards for Americans and the worst in his 8 years in office. I dont want to get to off topic but if you take a look at American History ..... Americans perceive lack of action worse than actions that result in "bad" things. Hence why Buchanan and Harding (15th and 29th pres respectively) are both at the bottom of the polls of just about every ranking ive ever seen.

[Digger]

Of course Clinton was not as bad George w., but bloody hell he was as low as a snake's belly.

But if I go on about Clinton it will detract from this thread. Perhaps I will start a Bill Clinton thread later.

On another note I'm sure Rising Sun will back me up, Australia has had some pretty crook leaders in the last 35 years, so you blokes have no monoply on this one.

Regards digger

[cam77]

As an Aussie I DO NOT hate American's. I do however strongly disagree with America's foreign policy.

Let us not forget that as allies in the so called war against terror we in Australia have a similar foreign policy. We are not blameless.

I read a good quote the other day. "When Australians don't vote we get a fine. When American's don't vote they get George Bush."

Sad thing is we have to vote by law and we as a nation voted for Little Johnny Howard. Who are the bigger fools?

[Digger]

You must admit Little Johnnie has run up against opponents who have simply imploded.

Regards digger

[Rising Sun*]

On another note I'm sure Rising Sun will back me up, Australia has had some pretty crook leaders in the last 35 years, so you blokes have no monoply on this one.

Regards digger

Definitely.

Off topic but, it's just a question of which was less bad.

Imagine the international laughter if the Americans had had a Billy McMahon running their show.

[Digger]

:D:D:D see my thread on Aussie PMS. Must admit though Billy had just about the sexiest first lady in history.;)

Regards digger

[royal744]

I read a good quote the other day. "When Australians don't vote we get a fine. When American's don't vote they get George Bush."


That's a great line, cam77. I voted TWICE not to have GW Bush (the Shrub) as President. The first time, I have my doubts as to whether or not that election was frankly stolen. The 2nd time, unfortunately, the American people made the wrong choice. Funny thing is, I could see through this guy from the start, as could millions of others, and always puzzled as to why a very slim majority voted otherwise. He was Governor here in Texas before and he wasn't much then either. But then Texas governors have very little power. Bush has a very attractive personality in a Yale frat-boy sort of way. I watched him up close a couple of times and can see why people like him, but liking him is not enough in my book. In comparison to Clinton, I think he's a midget, but that's another thread.

In any event, history will make its own judgment. I doubt it will go well for Dubya. I have a brother who has lived in Belgium for thirty five years and he tells me that the Belgians loved Clinton and can't stand Bush. Ditto my sister in Holland. Go figure. Sorry, I guess I couldn't put Bush "aside" for too long a moment.

[Rising Sun*]

America is a stunning patchwork of people and races, languages, religions and beliefs.

Here's the substance of a recent article by a senior Australian journalist, and former editor of the paper the article appears in, which confirms that comment from the outsider's view.

Some particularly wise person once said that if you are going to write about America, you should do so after a short stay, maybe a few weeks, before you are overwhelmed by its diversity and the sheer size of the place, with all its contradictions, excesses and complexities.

I fear that I have failed to convey the complexity of America, but if I have failed I am not alone. My view is that most of the reporting of the place by most foreign correspondents — British, European and, yes, Australian — fails the complexity test.

This, of course, is not unique to the coverage of the United States. Shortly after I arrived in Washington, David Broder, the veteran Washington Post columnist, having spent a few days in Australia, mainly in Sydney, wrote a column in which he described a country that to me was barely recognisable.

Broder's Australia was an earthly paradise, beautiful beyond imagining, with few economic or social problems, rich and prosperous and peaceful; Australians were friendly and unpretentious, larrikins it is true, but lovable larrikins, a country of men cut from the same cloth as the Crocodile Hunter.

Broder couldn't get past the cliches and prejudices about the place that he had brought with him to Sydney. How much harder is it then, for foreign correspondents whose job it is to cover America to get past the cliches about the place they have grown up with and the prejudices they have brought with them.

The baggage we bring with us is considerable. American popular culture has long been globalised. And American junk food has taken over the world. For much of my time here, America felt like a giant movie set. And sometimes it felt as if I was in the middle of a TV sitcom. It is so easy and so tempting to describe and report on an America of gun madness, violence, junk food-fed obesity, scary religious fundamentalism, sickly sentimental patriotism and swaggeringly stupid politicians such as George Bush.

That America exists, no doubt, but it is not the whole story. It is not even half the story. Perhaps the best time I had in America was when I was able to travel across the country, to what is often described as the heartland — the Midwest and the plains states and the South-west.

I remember a Saturday night dinner at an old hotel outside a small town in Kansas where all the townsfolk, grandparents and their children and their grandchildren, gathered each week for a fried chicken feast, a place that felt as if it was still living in the 1950s, and where we were made welcome, we strangers, and even invited into people's homes for a visit.

This happened everywhere, at baseball games, on train journeys, even in coffee shops; people offering hospitality and actually meaning it. Even in Washington, that most competitive of cities where everyone, it seems, is out to become a master of the universe, there was a real sense of neighbourhood and neighbourliness.

Once, when we had been away a few weeks travelling, we returned a few days before Christmas to find our front door decorated with holly and a note welcoming us back home. America is probably the most welcoming place in the world, where millions every year come to seek a new start and where there is no test of blood or tribal connections they have to pass to become Americans.

It is not without significance that, unlike Europe's Muslims, America's 2.5-million-strong Muslim community is highly assimilated, an economic success story and, overall, slightly more optimistic about America's future than the general population, according to recent research by the Pew Research Centre. And an overwhelming majority of American Muslims — more than 90 per cent — are opposed to Islamic extremism.

Much of American popular culture is trashy, of course, and much of its commercial media is mindless and fixated on celebrity, but the best of American journalism — print and broadcast — is better than anything I have found elsewhere, British journalism included.

America is a place full of contradictions that it would take a lifetime to unravel. For instance, while the Bush Administration's response to Hurricane Katrina and the drowning of New Orleans was inept and heartless, there was a great outpouring of generosity from Americans, who donated several billion dollars to support the mostly poor, black victims.

And tens of thousands of displaced people from New Orleans and the Mississippi coastal region were welcomed and resettled in cities in Texas that were not renowned for their history of great race relations.

I think that we foreign correspondents in America often deliver a cliched and a one-dimensional sense of this place, of this superpower that will play a major role in determining the future of all of us.

Me, I have grown to love the place, for all its failings. I will miss writing about it.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/the-more-you-get-to-know-a-place-the-harder-it-is-to-judge/2007/05/27/1180205073484.html

[royal744]

Fabulous article, RS! I think that's a definite keeper.

In the same vein, I know quite a few Europeans who have "been to America". Oh yes, they know it well. Where they have "been" has been to New York, Los Angeles and maybe San Francisco. Maybe. The other 99.9% of the country they know little or nothing about. Interestingly, a cafe owner in Nice remarked to me, "I have been to America, but I only saw New York City, and I know that is the most "un-American city" on the continent. This guy got it just right.

I was reading a book about "theatre design in America" written by a fellow from London. It was well-written, but unfortunately, the author ONLY visited New York City (lol), the one place in America where land values are so staggeringly high that it contains the worst theatres in the country. The good ones are ALL somewhere else! I wrote the author and he said next time he came here, he would "look around". He missed the other 12,000 theatres in the country.

We have all traveled to other countries and gained very shallow impressions of what is really there because most travelers have neither the time nor the inclination to burrow deeper than the depth of a digital image. Still, one supposes it's better than nothing.

[natacha]

American are not hated but American foreign policy is hated. Bush seems like a child who has received a new "war game" for xmas and who likes to play with. But he has forgotten to read Instructions: prohibition to use force (2.4 UN charter), non-existance of anticipatory self-defence (art 51) ...
If the American foreign policy changes, then the question "who hates American ?" will become obsolete.

[Nickdfresh]

American are not hated but American foreign policy is hated. Bush seems like a child who has received a new "war game" for xmas and who likes to play with. But he has forgotten to read Instructions: prohibition to use force (2.4 UN charter), non-existance of anticipatory self-defence (art 51) ...
If the American foreign policy changes, then the question "who hates American ?" will become obsolete.

Keep in mind that most Americans hate a lot of the current American foreign policy, which has led to an increasing turnover in gov't....

Bush has an approval rating that hovers around only 30% here...

[Digger]

Bush's approval rating and America's standing in the world would be a lot higher if the likes of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington were not pulling the strings behind the scenes.

digger

[Rising Sun*]

Bush has an approval rating that hovers around only 30% here...

In a nation where close to half of the eligible voters don't bother to vote.

It follows that a good part of the 70% who don't approve of Bush didn't bother to vote. They deserve what they got.

As for the rest, they're entitled to be shitty with people who moan about Bush but didn't do anything about it when they had the opportunity.

Fer Chrissake, how bloody hard is it to get off your arse and get down to a polling booth?

[Rising Sun*]

Bush's approval rating and America's standing in the world would be a lot higher if the likes of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington were not pulling the strings behind the scenes.

digger


Which leads to the question that I and a lot of people I know wonder about, which is whether Bush is just a puppet put up as a pliable figurehead by the neo-con Republicans and the interests they represent?

It's hard to believe that such a blundering idiot could get himself into the position by his intelligence, commanding personality, grasp of policy, and so on.

[Nickdfresh]

In a nation where close to half of the eligible voters don't bother to vote.

It follows that a good part of the 70% who don't approve of Bush didn't bother to vote. They deserve what they got.

As for the rest, they're entitled to be shitty with people who moan about Bush but didn't do anything about it when they had the opportunity.

Fer Chrissake, how bloody hard is it to get off your arse and get down to a polling booth?

I agree. But it almost seems as though the US gov't wants to inhibit mass voting. For instance, I think Australia and most modern western nations have a holiday on their election days whereas in the US you have to make time during your work day...

[Nickdfresh]

Which leads to the question that I and a lot of people I know wonder about, which is whether Bush is just a puppet put up as a pliable figurehead by the neo-con Republicans and the interests they represent?

It's hard to believe that such a blundering idiot could get himself into the position by his intelligence, commanding personality, grasp of policy, and so on.


He is without question a largely pre-selected candidate too unaware to be a threat to the corporationist agenda of the GOP leadership. Certainly his rise to power in 2000 over McCain was largely done through dirty tricks and the demonetization of John McCain. Some people tie this all on Rove, but I think it is actually bigger that just him..

While I don't think Bush is actually "stupid," he's undoubtedly one of the most intellectually lazy and under read Presidents ever...

[tankgeezer]

Most Americans have no faith in the U.N. And that it has its own agenda, one not aligned to American aims. To most of us here, it is a suspect enterprise, not to be trusted, and certainly not to be blindly followed.
The U.S. is still a soverign Nation, and will follow its own policy regardless of what any external body may think or wish.
I agree with the thoughts expressed concerning lazy voters. In some countries,though there are elections, there is no real choice. In other countries, one votes at the risk of life, and family. and then there are those few places, where there is no vote at all. period.
and seeing this on their screens, many Americans still find it too taxing to pry their arses off the couch, (Oprah is on you know,, or Springer,,) and go to the polling place. there are people who will pick them up, and drive them if they call, but so many will not even do that. it is a tragic waste of power, a dereliction of a freeperson's responsibility to those who have, and do now guarantee their rights to choose, and decide. As well to the Nation they are part of. Sad wastrels they be......

[Egorka]

Bush has an approval rating that hovers around only 30% here...
Speaking of ratings:

http://online.wsj.com/media/info-presapp0605-all.gif

http://online.wsj.com/media/info-presapp0605-bush2.gif
source: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html?printVersion=true

[Rising Sun*]

I agree. But it almost seems as though the US gov't wants to inhibit mass voting. For instance, I think Australia and most modern western nations have a holiday on their election days whereas in the US you have to make time during your work day...

We do them on Saturdays, when most people aren't working (although a lot are these days) or can find the time to vote. In the cities, you'd be unlucky to be more than a mile from your nearest polling booth, probably two or three within about that distance. It's no big effort to vote here, for most people.

We also fine eligible voters, i.e anyone over 18, if they don't attend a polling booth on election day. It's commonly called compulsory voting, but it's really compulsory attendance at a polling booth. Nobody knows what you put on your ballot paper.

I think there's some prohibition here on the sort of conduct that's routine in America, party workers getting busloads of old people or whomever to the polling booth, but I'm not sure.

Given the Australian love of public holidays, I think you've identified one of the few occasions we haven't thought of for a day off, for which we are indebted to you. :D

We're halfway there already, as many polling booths are at schools where the parents' club takes the opportunity to make a few dollars with sausage sizzles, soft drink sales and so on.

[Rising Sun*]

I agree with the thoughts expressed concerning lazy voters. In some countries,though there are elections, there is no real choice. In other countries, one votes at the risk of life, and family. and then there are those few places, where there is no vote at all. period.
and seeing this on their screens, many Americans still find it too taxing to pry their arses off the couch, (Oprah is on you know,, or Springer,,) and go to the polling place. there are people who will pick them up, and drive them if they call, but so many will not even do that. it is a tragic waste of power, a dereliction of a freeperson's responsibility to those who have, and do now guarantee their rights to choose, and decide. As well to the Nation they are part of. Sad wastrels they be......

The great paradox is that Americans extol, and fight and die for, the right for other nations to experience the right to vote, and other aspects of democracy, that underpins America, but Americans at home can't be bothered.

Go figure.

[HG]

My little time spend with the Americans is not very good. Why the US just pisses me off is that it is always said that the US can do anything better than anybody else in the world and that they are the best as well with everything.

Now The US government is the thing that makes me sick, the fact that they do just what they want and say what they want and expect that nothing will come out of it is so stupid.

In my country as well you get plenty of assholes that think, oh wait can not think and thus screw up the whole country.

If the US do something wrong the whole world suffer for it, damn look at the oil prices. If the oil price goes up the food and every bloody thing goes up, your pay stays where it is but you must pay more and more every bloody month for almost everything. The US started the oil price climbing and for a third world country like South Africa it is very bad indeed to get that sh*t knocking at your door every month.

Lets be honest, the US not loved across the world, I think if Americans learn something about other countries in the world except their own they might see that they are not the only people on this planet and think that the rest is a bunch of monkeys on the planet.

So yes I hate the American government and the assholes that live in the US just like you get other assholes in other countries all over the whole world.

[tankgeezer]

No fence sitting now,,, what do you really think.

[32Bravo]

HG's post made me laugh...I think a lot of people dislike or hate what they cannot have and NEVER will and they KNOW it. We cant be that bad because why do so many people want to come here to live?

That's a very good point. Personally, I love America and Americans, or, at least, I've loved a lot of American women. ;)

I would argue that the rest of the world and mankind are merely jealous of what the U.S. has achieved over the past century, and can only wish to be more like America and Americans, but they know it isn't going to happen. :evil:

[Gen. Sandworm]

HG's post made me laugh...I think a lot of people dislike or hate what they cannot have and NEVER will and they KNOW it. We cant be that bad because why do so many people want to come here to live?

Simple! Money! My suggestion get your BA or BS in the US. Get the rest of your education in Europe. Come back to the US to work. Then retire in Europe. Easier said than done!

Judging a whole Country by what some of the politicians do is just ignorant.

Completely agree! However Americans are quick to do this as well. Let not forget the anti-french nuts we had when they wouldnt join our wonderful war.

[HG]

Why does this make me laugh? Judging a whole Country by what some of the politicians do is just ignorant. Also if gas gets to high for ya..maybe its time to start riding a bike...:)

I have a bike and I ride it to work everyday so I am not lazy or I walk to work and it is not a block or two from my house.

Well guys I do not give a damn about the money the US have and I am not a person that want a lot of money so that part is not true. To say that people in third world countries just want money is bull.

Rather think about what I said. I said I hate the US government and the ASSHOLES that live there. Did I say I hate the whole US?

Now guys I work for very little money and I rather work for little money and get where I want to go rather than having a lot of cash and be a asshole, face it poor people are very happy people because they appreciate everything they have and what they do for each other.

So what is money then, does it make you something?

Now I told you what I thought and by attacking me is not the way to go rather debate the whole issue than fight like school kids.

[Rising Sun*]

... face it poor people are very happy people because they appreciate everything they have

I haven't seen any really poor people dancing in the streets with joy because of their inability to enjoy the things that most of the society they live in take for granted.

I've done a lot of work with the poor over the past 35 years. I've never met anyone that wouldn't rather have more money to make their life better.

I've never met anyone who said "Gee, it's so great being as poor as I am, I wish I was poorer, so I could be even happier, so I'm going to give away what I've got so I can live naked with absolutely nothing and be ecstatic for the rest of my life, without money to buy even food, clothes or shelter."

and what they do for each other

A myth that rivals the noble savage.

Most crimes by the poor are committed against the poor.

So what is money then, does it make you something?

No, but it stops you being hungry, being unable to afford decent medical and dental care for yourself and your kids, gives your kids advantages to get out of poverty, avoids your kids being ridiculed at school because the clothes you can afford are rubbish in the eyes of most of the other kids, lets you have a comfortable life where a luxury isn't eating once a week or even once a month what moderately well off people eat every night, avoids the humiliation of having to rely on charity for basic needs, and so on.

Two well known quotes, which sum it up.

I've been poor and I've been rich. Rich is better.

People who say money can't buy happiness don't know where to shop.

[HG]

#1). That is very good, so the high gas prices shouldn't be that burdensome to you and it keeps you healthy.

#2) I don't think I mentioned money..maybe someone else did..

#3) There are a lot of ass holes that live here that's for sure...LOL maybe the U.S. government could be more like yours and the world would be a better place..what do ya think?

#4) Are you trying to say that if you have money that makes you an ass hole?? Rising sun covered the rest better than I ever could.

#5) Ditto..what rising sun said

#6) Jut curious ..why do so many think just because someone does not agree with them, they consider that an attack?

The gas price makes everything go up so that is my big problem.

No I know many people who has money and lots of it and they are not assholes mate, just I do not know why money always gets involved?

No mate I just said that because people said that I just said everything because I do not have the money.

[PA.Dutchman]

I had a good laugh last summer at work here in the States. We had 2 really fine young Polish College Students work with us for the summer.

They could make more money for their education by working here for the summer.

My family doctor is of Polish background. However they have lived here for several generations.

When I first met the Polish students and found out the one is going to school to become a family doctor I told him my own family doctor is Polish. I told him I would call my doctor and ask him to take this fine young Intern around our local hospital and see what medicine is like here in our area.

He was so thrilled to have the opportunity and it was a easy thing to do and I was glad to do it.

I told the young Intern I will write down my name, address and phone number so he could get back to me.

I wrote it down and I handed it to him and he walked off. In a moment he came back and pointed at my last name and said "But you are German".

I said "listen Matthew, I am an American, my family may have a German name last name, but we migrated here in 1753, we are German Americans, not Nazis.

We both laughed I said this is how it is in the United States, we are Polish Americans, German American, Italian Americans whatever Americans, but we are all Americans!!

I said do you understand and he said "Yes now I do."

[32Bravo]

I said "listen Matthew, I am an American, my family may have a German name last name, but we migrated here in 1753, we are German Americans, not Nazis.

We both laughed I said this is how it is in the United States, we are Polish Americans, German American, Italian Americans whatever Americans, but we are all Americans!!

I said do you understand and he said "Yes now I do."

Are there any American-Americans?

My father is Irish, as were his parents. My mother was English born in England, her mother was Scottish born in Scotland and her father was English born in England.
What does that make me? ...well, being born in England - I'm English.

[Nickdfresh]

Are there any American-Americans?

My father is Irish, as were his parents. My mother was English born in England, her mother was Scottish born in Scotland and her father was English born in England.
What does that make me? ...well, being born in England - I'm English.


Well, I'm an American-American of Euro-mutt stock....

My maternal great grandparents were from Ireland and Germany respectively. And my father was a mixture of Anglo-Irish, Scottish, English and Norman French (he was Anglican then converted to Catholicism for some reason) I think there is some Swedish in there as well...But I think you'll have a hard time finding a family that is pure "Yankee" American (from the colonial era) I'm not sure any exist, and even I can trace my ancestors back to the Mayflower...

[32Bravo]

What I was getting at, is why all of the labelling - cannot Americans be content to be simply Americans? That's how most non-Americans see them (not that most non-Americans have personally informed of this, as yet. :)).

Does not the American cultural identity take ascendency over the underlying cultures of the ancestors of American people.

I see myself as English, that is my culture. My father is Irish, but I don't see myself as being Irish-English. Why is there (if, indeed, there is?) a need among Americans to display their ancestoral roots?

A friend of mine informs me that the people of the Indian Nations dislike being labelled Native-Americans.

[tankgeezer]

The hyphenated American is a thing peculiar to our shores,, as everyone is an immigrant descendant, (even the Indians came from elsewhere,,just been here longer) ) And the human tendency to mingle blood makes this a real cocktail of bloodlines.
we all know we are "Americans",no matter where the old folks came from, it is just our way of maintaining our heritage, and identity. My Paternal side arrived(Eastern Europe) in 1906 through Ellis Island,and my Maternal side arrived(Netherlands) in 1631.

[32Bravo]

The hyphenated American is a thing peculiar to our shores,, as everyone is an immigrant descendant, (even the Indians came from elsewhere,,just been here longer) ) And the human tendency to mingle blood makes this a real cocktail of bloodlines.
we all know we are "Americans",no matter where the old folks came from, it is just our way of maintaining our heritage, and identity. My Paternal side arrived(Eastern Europe) in 1906 through Ellis Island,and my Maternal side arrived(Netherlands) in 1631.

Okay, I can appreciate what you are saying. It is just that, as an outsider so to speak, it seems that there is a lot of emphasis on the heritage thing. I know thatyou say that you are all Americans and, indeed, you are - why stress the other? You describe your European roots rather well and, obviously, you are comfortable with that. I do not quite follow why it is necessary for one to make everyone else aware of it in the way it is done.

Take myself, for examply, I know my roots and if the topic came up in a discussion, I could go way down deep in describing them. However, that is very rare, as far as I and anyone else is concerned I am English. I have a lifelong friend whom I began my first day of school with at the age of five years. His parents were Ukraine, if one didn't know that, and most people do not, it wouldn't and isn't a consideration, he is English.

This is no criticism, it just seems rather odd, to me that is. I would suppose that it is a cultural thing among Americans and that that is the way it has always been? I have American cousins, but I just think of them as Americans (when I am not displeased with them).

Sure the Indians were migrants, but we are talking Millenia - that would apply pretty much to all peoples if one went back far enough. Even the Africans, where it was all meant to begin (depending on whose version of creation one acknowledges) were nomad, hunter-gatherers, as were the American Indians.

Anyway, I think you have explained the situation well enough. I will just have to accept your American 'eccentricities', which, presumably, is also the reason why you wear that sporron about your chin? :)

[tankgeezer]

It is an odd pastime I agree,, I don't know when it started, but its been rolling along since,,Most folks probably don't care very much, at least not enough to wave it like a flag, but some are very close to their foreign heritage, and join societies for their particular origin.
Sometimes its a social polarization, where people from a common background can hangout, and be in their own company. A familiarity thing. (language, food, behaviors etc.)
This phenomina may spread to other countries in time, as people migrate across the world. There may come a time when there are no more "pure blood" people anywhere.....

[savoy6]

we all know we are "Americans",no matter where the old folks came from, it is just our way of maintaining our heritage, and identity

a social scientist,whose name i can't recall at the moment ,once said,"what the son wants to forget,the grandson wants to remember.." when speaking of how imigrants and their children view their family history.new americans are usually quite proud of becoming american and their children usually work very hard to leave any vestiges of thier immigrant roots behind.later their children or grand children want to know where they come from and start learning ,or trying to learn, about the "old country".

[Nickdfresh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slKNd22GGaQ

[tankgeezer]

That was funny, it must have been a slow day in the City,,,,,

[32Bravo]

My cousin turned me into a complete bore by introducing me to 'Richardsonian Archways'. :roll: :roll:

Now, each time I spot one of these Romanesque designs on TV I point iti out to all and sundry. :roll: :roll:

Scroll down the link, and you too can become a complete bore! :roll:

http://www.cheyennedepotmuseum.org/architecture.asp

[comradesinarms]

i dont lik americans! but then again i dont think any of the british do! they're too god bless our country, and cry too much, and moan about everything.
There is always one asshole that will say, yeh well we saved your ass in WW2! (no you helped us, you didn't save us get over it) and now like idiots we are following them into a war that not even the american people believe in!over here in england george bush is seen as your typical american, everything about him seems so stereotype! but please do not take offense, i mean no real offense, it's just the same as the french, everybody hates the french! but we still fought along side them!

:)

[32Bravo]

i dont lik americans! but then again i dont think any of the british do! they're too god bless our country, and cry too much, and moan about everything.
There is always one asshole that will say, yeh well we saved your ass in WW2! (no you helped us, you didn't save us get over it) and now like idiots we are following them into a war that not even the american people believe in!over here in england george bush is seen as your typical american, everything about him seems so stereotype! but please do not take offense, i mean no real offense, it's just the same as the french, everybody hates the french! but we still fought along side them!

:)


It's wrong to generalise, and 'Hate' is a very different word to 'Dislike'.

Personally, I have found that I rather like most Americans that I have met, and some of those which I haven't - Tankgeezer!

If you dislike Americans, so much, why do you say 'Asshole' instead of 'Arsehole' ?

And why do you dislike the French - is it their food, their wine, their women, their panache, their nonchalance?

[comradesinarms]

i dunno why i wrote asshole instead of arsehole! lol look mate i think your probably the only english person i know who doesn't hate the french, im not even proper english! half german and half english! and i just cant stand the surrendering buggers! with their dodgy langauge and stuck up attitude.

every french person i have ever met have been stuck up, arrogant, pr**ks! and pretty much the same for the yanks.
the french wine is disgusting, personally i prefer south african or italian, and i dont no what panache means.... lol :)

and who r u to preach moral values? we're all supposed to have our own oppinions aren't
we? :)

[32Bravo]

and who r u to preach moral values? we're all supposed to have our own oppinions aren't
we? :)

You had me going, there, for a while....been celebrating with the missus and over indulged in the Chardonnay. :D

So, why not drop the masquerade??? :D:D:D

[comradesinarms]

what masquerade?

[32Bravo]

what masquerade?

My apologies. It's a French, rooted word. I just wondered if you knew what it meant? ;)

[1000ydstare]

Personnally I don't mind Americans.

I am beginning to despise comradesinarms though.

How old are you? And what do you actually know about the world? History in general? WW2?

[comradesinarms]

im 25, ive studied History and world war 2 in particular at school college and im in the process of *hopefully* being accepted into Uni to *hopfully* gain a degree in history, belive it or not i do actually no a fai bit about the war, but from nearly every angle not just from the allies perspective also being half German kinda helps! :) that help?

My apologies. It's a French, rooted word. I just wondered if you knew what it meant?

lol! :)

[1000ydstare]

You strike me as an imbecile. If you know a fair bit about the war, why are you so wrong a number of basic and obvious points?

[comradesinarms]

you love that word dont you imbecile . . . it is a pretty cool word, do some more research mate then say that im wrong on a number of obvious points.

And btw what points are they then?

[Nickdfresh]

im 25, ive studied History and world war 2 in particular at school college and im in the process of *hopefully* being accepted into Uni to *hopfully* gain a degree in history, belive it or not i do actually no a fai bit about the war, but from nearly every angle not just from the allies perspective also being half German kinda helps! :) that help?

My apologies. It's a French, rooted word. I just wondered if you knew what it meant?

lol! :)


Perhaps you should start with English. then learn French?

[32Bravo]

Perhaps you should start with English. then learn French?

Cheeky! :D

[Rising Sun*]

Perhaps you should start with English. then learn French?

As a painfully new member who posted in another thread merely to attract the stunning intellect of young comradesinarms to a centre of learning where his currently rudimentary yet promising buds of inspired ignorance might blossom into profound knowledge, perhaps you will forgive me for suggesting that the classical allusions in his postings have been rather too subtle for some who lack a classical education.

I refer, of course, to the seemingly careless degradation of hopefully to hopfully at #89.

Clearly these are the first and second (lesser intellects might say the first two, which is a logical impossibility) steps in a progression to the Hoplites, the classical Greek warriors.

When one grasps the intellectual sophistication and exquisite subtlety of these hopping progressions, one realises that comradeinarms addresses us in neither English nor French.

It is, as he so cunningly intends from his position of intellectual arrogance, all Greek to us.

[1000ydstare]

The points are many and varied.

ie Blitzkreig, who invented it, who used it, was it ever taken on by the allies, who invaded Poland as the aggressor, what the full implications of the German "peace" offers were (you will find they were not peace offers at all), the fighting to the last man and why Paulus was promoted.

Then we could go on to your decidely dodgey beliefs that Hitler was "OK" and that his various exterminations can be justified if you look at tehm from the right angle.

[32Bravo]

As a painfully new member who posted in another thread merely to attract the stunning intellect of young comradesinarms to a centre of learning where his currently rudimentary yet promising buds of inspired ignorance might blossom into profound knowledge, perhaps you will forgive me for suggesting that the classical allusions in his postings have been rather too subtle for some who lack a classical education.

I refer, of course, to the seemingly careless degradation of hopefully to hopfully at #89.

Clearly these are the first and second (lesser intellects might say the first two, which is a logical impossibility) steps in a progression to the Hoplites, the classical Greek warriors.

When one grasps the intellectual sophistication and exquisite subtlety of these hopping progressions, one realises that comradeinarms addresses us in neither English nor French.

It is, as he so cunningly intends from his position of intellectual arrogance, all Greek to us.

Someone's having some fun here! :D

[Rising Sun*]

Someone's having some fun here! :D

I am miffed, but shall refrain from responding with a mighty miff which shall miff the miffers mightily.

Miff leads to muff, and in no time one has exactly the situation which occurred when Dr Spooner spied a punt upon the Cam.

We in the common room have little fun.

Exercising one's intellect is the serious business of intellectual survival, and rather wearing.

Where would a man be without a brain?

One might merely address such questons to comradeinarms, for answers of such translucence as bestride the ages.

[pdf27]

Miff leads to muff, and in no time one has exactly the situation which occurred when Dr Spooner spied a punt upon the Cam.
I smell a Walt. You're talking like someone from a certain lower institute of learning on the Thames!

Test:
1) What end of the punt do you punt from on the Cam?
2) What is the Granta?
3) How many bridges do you climb when punting to Grantchester the night before Suicide Sunday?

[32Bravo]

I am miffed, but shall refrain from responding with a mighty miff which shall miff the miffers mightily.

Miff leads to muff, and in no time one has exactly the situation which occurred when Dr Spooner spied a punt upon the Cam.

We in the common room have little fun.

Exercising one's intellect is the serious business of intellectual survival, and rather wearing.

Where would a man be without a brain?

One might merely address such questons to comradeinarms, for answers of such translucence as bestride the ages.

IIRC the Royal Astronomical Society placed an ad for a competition, in the Times, allowing six months for someone to come up with a formula which came to be known as ‘Differential Calculus’. Newton solved the problem overnight and submitted it unsigned.

The response was something like: “We recognize the ‘Master’ by his signature!”

But it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been blinded by the bovine slippery stuff. :D

[Rising Sun*]

I smell a Walt. You're talking like someone from a certain lower institute of learning on the Thames!

Test:
1) What end of the punt do you punt from on the Cam?
2) What is the Granta?
3) How many bridges do you climb when punting to Grantchester the night before Suicide Sunday?

A walt is a wanker wannabe.

I am a piss taker, of ancient age.

Test me not with with thy trivial quibbles, for the answers are well known.

For an engineer, here's a couple of simple questions.

Which bridge failed harmonically?

Name three (or two) bridges that aren't like it and haven't failed.

[Rising Sun*]

The response was something like: “We recognize the ‘Master’ by his signature!”

But it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been blinded by the bovine slippery stuff. :D

Perhaps not, my son, but you've got the drift about the cattle ex