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Chevan
04-28-2007, 03:38 AM
Hello guys.
I think we have to separate this discussion from the other thread about A-bombing of Japane.
Firstly i wish to note - the aim of this thread is not the justify the fascism and not to make them as heroes. We know enough about mass violence that brought to the world the Nazism.
But i think we need to discuss the some theme about Holocaust that constantly arises during our others discussion.
I want to continie our discussion with the our new american member savoy6 about cremation ovens in Auswitz.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Majdanek_piece.jpg/300px-
Here i just to show some of my personal calculation about the theme and i would wery glad if somebody could help to find my mistakes or unaccuracies.
So he wrote

i'm going to chalk this comment up to you not having an understanding of just how hot the the average human body can burn.the "gas/oil/wood supporting" comes from the fat in the bodies.

Fat from a bodies ;)
You mst just wondering me again. How do you think was the percentage of fat in those peoples?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Buchenwald.jpg/180px-Buchenwald.jpg
I suppose the wight of those peoples was no more 50 kg.
As it was established the wight of a normal men's body consists of roughtly 60% of liquid
20 % of bonesand 20% of soft tissues.
But i think you should agree the peoples on the cioncentration camps was FAR from normal, right?
The had a expressed sign of the dystrophia - the damage of the composition.
They had a much less percentage of the soft tissues - no more 10%.
The rest was the liquid and the bones.( 65% and 25% accordingly).
So i think you agree the soft issues are ONLY able to burn itself.
Accorging the laborators experiements were established the next figures:
The burning of 1 gramm of fat realised the 9,45 Kcal of heat enegry = aboout 40 kJ/gramm
1 gramm of protein - 5,65 Kcal = about 24 kJ/gramm
1 gramm of carbohydrates -4,3 Kcal/g = 18 kJ/gramm
In the organism of a normal peoples the proportions of fat/protein/carbonates is ( roughtly) about 1:1:20 i.e in the 1 killogram of soft tissue containt the 50 grams of fat , 50 cartbons and 900 gramms of proteins.
I.e the 1 killogram of tissue realised the heat energy of 50*40+900*24+50*18= 23MJ /kg
I.e. the burning of the one bodies realised about 5 Kg * 23= 115 MJ of heat energy.
But what's about 32 Kg of liquid in the body
To burn the body you need to warm it till the 100C then to evaporate it , right.
the warming of 1 gramm of water needs about 4,2 J/gramm per each degree.
So wen need 4,2 * ( 100C-20C) = 336 J/gramm only to warm the liquid till the "point of boil"
Plus the heat of evaporation the water is about 2,3 KJ/gramm.
So we need the about 2,3 + 0,34 = 2,64 KJ/gramm to dry the liquid.
And a total 32 Kg * 2,6 KJ/gramm * 1000 = 85 MJ per body.

So what do we have?
Burnibg the death dody of adult 50-kg bodye realised the 115-85 = roughly 30 MJoul of heat energy.
So PURE THEORETICALLY the body could to burn itself.
But what about bones?
As it was proved by the experience of cremation the full decompose of body needs 2-3 hours (*1) in the temperature about 1000C , right?
So lest calculate the heat loses through the sides of oven.
The a flux of heat (energy per unit area per unit time) divided by a temperature gradient (temperature difference per unit length) is defined as:
thermal conductivity of a brick is about 0,8-1 Watt/meter*dT per the 1 squear meter.
Let get the thickness of a oven sides about 0,5 metter ( althought the ovens in the picture above i think has no more 30-40 sm.)
So the loses of the heat per second per 1 squar meter of side is about 0,8* ( 1000 C- 20 C) = about 800 Watt per second
The full circle of cremation need 2-3 hours i.e. 800* 3600* (2-3hours) /0.5= 12-16 MJoul per square meter.
Lets calculate the inside area of a oven.
I thinl i will right to admit the inner area of oven as parallelepiped 2x1x1 meters. So the overal area is about 10 squares metters.
Hence the overal loses through the sides of oven was about 120-160 MJoul for the circle of burning. OK lets rough it till 140Mjoul.
But we've calculated ONLY the heat loses through the bricks. We ignored the inevitable heat loses through the chimney.
The calculation of the Convection heal loses is not simple but according the experimentals datas the efficiency of simple furnace is no more 40-50%. The rest 50% heat flys to the atmosphere through the chimney.
So we have to increase the heat loses at least twice i.e about 300Mjouls for the circle of cremation on the one camera of oven like in the picture above.
Indeed the heat loses should more couse we do not considered the heat loses through the heat radiation of the warmed outward sides of oven- in fact during the cycle it warmed up till the 200-300 C. So i thing the total loses of heat were at least 400-500Mjoul for the cycle.
The CONCLUSION
Thus we have to load athe least 400/30 =13 bodies in the EACH camera of the oven.

Indeed we neeeds instead of a battery of ovens (like in the picture above) the one GIANT oven that should have the spherical or at least cylindrical form ( to decrease the loses of heat through the square of inner sides ,becouse as you may be know from geometry those figures have a less square of sides.).
In practice for the compensation of heat loses durimg the cremation of one body you have to born the additional fuel - wood, coal of the gas.
For instance the killogram of Coal realises the heat energy = 22 MJoul per each kg. Or the wood - about 10-13Mjoul per kg
So you need at least 400/22 =about 20 kg of coal ( or about 40 Kg of wood) ONLY for the supporting the temperature regime inside the oven during the cremation.
But don't forget the inevitable loses of heat during the load/unload process this could add the 15-20% of heat loses.


.one of the reasons that overweight people take about a 1/3 less time to cremate than thinner people

here you absolutly right the additional fat from the bodies helps to burn the corps.


do...secondly,...the ovens in your picture are not "the sizes of home wood stove".. they were large enough to put 2 adults in...the interior of the ovens are done with a heat shielding refractory brick that holds the heat in the oven without transfering it to the outside where it would be wasted.much of the "maintenance" was usually just having to clear the ovens of ash and bone fragments.

OK, do you prefere a mathematic?;)
Lets calculate the average of bodies that could cremate one camera of oven for the 24 hours.
2 bodies ( this is your figure) for one circle of burning in the that need at least 2 hours ( but this is the theoretical minimum).
So we have roughtly 24 bodies per 24 hours ( with the condition of continiouse burn).
The overal quatity of Aushvits victims is about 1,2 million right.
And the 60 % i.e about 700 000 of those peoples were killed during the last period of war from the spring 1944 untill the beginning of 1945 according the oficial version i.e during the 1 years i.e about 365 days.
So we have 700 000 /( 24 *365) = 80 cameras like that.
The tupical "version" of dissapearing the crematorium was that the germans exploded everyting befor the retreat. But this is wrong coz the Red Army captured the Aushvith during the quick winter offensive that germans staff of camps leaved it in panic - they even could not liqudate the all of the prisoners. And they simply had no enough time to liquidate the giant crematoriun fully without the remains.
Where did you see the remains the crematorium with 80 cameras in the Aushwitz?This is not death camp - this must be the whole a death-plant that consumed the resources like the any other plant.
I mean add to this the about 20 kg of coal per each 2 corps for the full burning- so we have the total consumption of coal in the ONLY Auswitz about 1 400 tonns . This is the entire train of coal that enough for the supporting the heat during the winter the 1400000/ (10 kg per day per house * 100 days of winter)= 1400 average germans houses - the entire a little city with population.
So where is the logic of total war here?
ADDITIONS:
(1)All my calculation are based on the theoretical minimum of cremation of human body is about 2 hours.
Indeed in the practice of work of contemporary cramatoriums this cycle is about 6-11 hours - its depend from the condition od body and the temperature in the inside.
If we will use the aprocimatelly 6 hours in the calculation this gets the additional 250-300Mjoul of heat loses for the cyrcle of burning.
to be continie...

Chevan
04-28-2007, 03:51 AM
according to a very elderly friend of my mother who was in aushwitz ,

Oh this is too personal for you , i/m sorry i didn't know.


due to the emaciated condition of many of the prisoners towards the end of the war, they were loading people 3 at a time into the ovens....4 if they were children

I do not deny they could load the 3-4 bodies in the camera- the emaciated bodies burns worst then the normal thus you need to use more fuel for the supporting of burning.


.they had to pull out the body racks in the ovens with a metal pole because they were usually red hot...sorry..

Well the red hot metal pole is just additional heat loses for the radiation of heat.
Sorry for that ,sound cynically.


i'll take the word of someone who was there as opposed to your word since you obviously weren't there and seem hell bent on doing your best to push a neo-nazi, revisionist view of the holocaust...

Firstly i.m not neo-nazy or revisionist - this people tryes to justify the nazy. I/m not.
Belonging to the Slav nation ( the nation that suffered a MUCH MORE casulates in fight agains fascism that any other nation in the WW2 ) i have no illusions about nazism ( espesially Germans fascism).
I/m just a "low race" man that must be not born if the nazy has won this war.
Secondary the one of the lovely method to blame the any who do not agree with official "theory of Holocaust" as the neo-nazy, anti-semit and revisionist.
Do not repeat this propogandic focus.
I,m not anti-semite and one of my close friend in the Russia is the jew.
And third...
You get to the revisionist's hands the new trump to protect the nazy when yourself tells about "the fat from a bodies that supports the burning in the oven". This is too easy way to prove the arguments of neo-nazy ( they tells the Holocaust is the bluff)
This is pure demagogy and any specialist of the cremation easy could prove to you that for the burning the corp you have to use the fuel.
I hope you understand me right.

Cheers. Chevan

Rising Sun*
04-28-2007, 04:53 AM
An alternative view is here
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

See also, regarding the author,
http://www.univpress.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?command=Search&db=%5EDB/CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0761818219

Chevan
04-28-2007, 05:50 AM
Well Rising Sun i know a tens of an "alternatives view" that i simply do not wish to discuss here coz this is the matter of revisionists.


Zimmerman's work is the only book that comprehensively examines the underlying arguments of Holocaust denial. He goes into great depth on the actual arguments that deniers use. Holocaust Denial examines their methodology, use of sources and reasoning process.
And i know at least a one authors who goes into a deep on the arguments of "officials historians". And he very convictiable proves his poin. You know him this is the D.Irwing.( BTW one of the best specialist on the history of Third reich)
But i do not will to use his explanation coz i simply cold not able to check his arguments.
And beeing the critic in the nature at the could not to get this as absolute true.
So i'm really do not see the reason to believe the Zimmerman ( who as you could see from his family is not the neitral person in this question).
I just wish to get my personal investigation on basis of my personal knowleges and common material.
So could you get the your personal view of this problem without any links at the "alternative versions". And could you show the point where my calculations are wrong?

Amrit
04-28-2007, 06:15 AM
If you're basing your arguements on Irving then you're in big trouble. He's has been completely dismissed as an historian, even in court. If you want to know exactly how read http://www.amazon.com/Telling-Lies-About-Hitler-Holocaust/dp/1859844170

Chevan
04-28-2007, 06:28 AM
If you're basing your arguements on Irving then you're in big trouble. He's has been completely dismissed as an historian, even in court. If you want to know exactly how read http://www.amazon.com/Telling-Lies-About-Hitler-Holocaust/dp/1859844170
Irving has no influence at the my arguments indeed.
This is the true he used a simular critical point about the Gas-chambers of Aushwitz.
But my calculations is based the ONLY at the my personal observations of the public informations from the open sources like a Wiki and some of my speculative conclusions.

Amrit
04-28-2007, 06:51 AM
Irving has no influence at the my arguments indeed.

And yet you mention him as "one of the best specialist on the history of Third reich". He is not because the way that he has interpreted his sources have been discredited.


This is the true he used a simular critical point about the Gas-chambers of Aushwitz.

Yes, as a holocaust denier - as shown by his conviction and imprisonment


But my calculations is based the ONLY at the my personal observations of the public informations from the open sources like a Wiki and some of my speculative conclusions.

Firstly, your personal observations and speculation based on your sources seem to be completely skewed. Science is based on rigourous standards, which when followed, have shown exactly how the the system worked, including the disposal of the bodies.

Secondly, your methodology is based on the selective use and interpretation of information for a political goal.

Rising Sun*
04-28-2007, 08:45 AM
Well Rising Sun i know a tens of an "alternatives view" that i simply do not wish to discuss here coz this is the matter of revisionists.So could you get the your personal view of this problem without any links at the "alternative versions". And could you show the point where my calculations are wrong?

I won't offer a personal view on your calculations because I haven't studied the matter in sufficient detail, and don't have the knowledge, to make a useful personal contribution.

But if I was going to challenge your figures, the first thing I would want to know is how you establish the number of ovens and their capacity, as well as the engineering specifications for and performance of the ovens actually used. This is distinct from the abstract calculations you have presented. As a somewhat extreme example of the difficulties your position faces, you might as well argue that because we cannot work out how the pyramids were constructed then, therefore, they do not exist.

I'd prefer to evaluate arguments from people who have looked at historical issues in detail, including the detailed analysis you have made of an aspect of it, and sources such as the link I posted.

I don't align myself with one or other side of the Holocaust debate but simply base my views on the best evidence presented. For a very long time it has been the case that the best evidence has been presented by people who think that millions of Jews, and others, were exterminated by the Nazis.

I note that in other threads you have stressed the numbers of Soviet citizens killed by the Nazis without challenging the authenticity of those figures. If you accept them, why do you have a problem with the Jewish deaths?

As for 'revisionists', I don't think that this is a useful term as it is, in this area, a meaningless and pejorative term thrown about by everybody who disagrees with contrary views. Revisionism usually means challenging the orthodox view. On that basis, you views are the revisionist ones.

Rising Sun*
04-28-2007, 08:52 AM
But my calculations is based the ONLY at the my personal observations of the public informations from the open sources like a Wiki and some of my speculative conclusions.

Wiki is the most reliable source of the most often quoted misinformation on the planet.

If you're going to present a serious challenge to any serious historical issue, you need to go back to primary sources.

What primary sources did you use to establish, say, the number and capacity of the ovens which you used for your calculations?

Panzerknacker
04-28-2007, 09:53 AM
This topic remember me a song of Iron Maiden who say in a part:

"Living on the razor edge....

Balancing on the edge...."


Closed until further notice.