PDA

View Full Version : Your favorite Russian General



Vorontsov
04-28-2007, 12:48 AM
One of my favourite Russian General is Marshal Zhukov.
Marshal Zhukov - marshal of the victory During its centuries-old history Russian state repeatedly underwent aggression. For the Russian people many times was necessary with the weapon in the hands of news the severe, and, sometimes unequal battles, in which they appeared their leadership skill: Aleksandr nevskiy, Dmitriy Donskoy, Peter I, Aleksandr Suvorov, MikhailKutuzov. Their names with great care are stored in the memory of generations. In THE XX century to them were added the names of the generals of World War II - Zhukov G.K., A.M.Vasilevskiy, I.S.Konev, R.Ya.Malinovskiy, K.K.Rokossovskiy, S.K.Timoshenko, and many others. Within the four year old period of fight against the German aggression occurred not one srazheniye.So with all most important strategical operations of Russian troops in the course of World War II is inseparably connected Georgiy Constantinovich Zhukov's name.

Vorontsov
04-28-2007, 12:49 AM
Georgiy Constantinovich Zhukov was borne 19 november(to old style) 1896 in the village Of strelkovka of Kaluga province. In the years of Zhukov's childhood the village not than nevydelyalas' of thousand of Russian villages. Men - frequently on the earnings in the city, in the field - woman and children. The father of Zhukov made shoes in the cities, mother earned additionally on the transportation it was cargo. Earnings were such, that by Georgiy Constantinovich's himself own acknowledgement "poor earned more". Still it will write: "the thanks to neighbors, they sometimes rescued us first by cabbage soups, then kashey. This mutual aid in the villages not was exception, but it is faster by the tradition of friendship and solidarity of Russian people, which lived in the heavy need ". At the seven-year age Georgiy went to learn into the church school to his first teacher Sergey Nikolayevich Remizovu. In the Kaluga province it was brought send boys - adolescents to learn into the cities any craft. During June 1907 Zhukov left for Moscow to his uncle to learn the furriery matter. Simultaneously concerning the instruction in the handicraft matter Georgiy together with the son of owner studied the Russian language, mathematics, geography. In yr he entered the evening general education courses and successfully finished them.

Vorontsov
04-28-2007, 12:51 AM
On 7 August, 1915, Zhukov was called into the dragoon regiment. On the slope of years the marshal told writer Constantine Simonov: "I could prove to be in the school of ensigns. I graduated from in the newspaper alley the four-year school, which gave a sufficient educational qualification for the entering to this school. But I thought: I will here graduate from the school of ensigns and I will be, 19-year boy, to command byvalymi soldiers - by borodachami. Me it did not want this, it was uncomfortable. And who it knows, seemingly it left, if I proved to be not by soldier, but by officer... and would by this time break out revolution... It can be, would live somewhere his century in emigratsii?".Poetomu Georgiy Constantinovich it entered into the noncommissioned officer school, which graduated from during August 1916 it warred junior non-comissioned officer Zhukov brave, but not long. During September he obtained easy injury during the horse attack on the southwestern Front, in the mountain region Of bystritsa, and Georgievskiy obtained cross for the seizure of language. But already during October Georgiy Constantinovich blew up on the mine and was obtained heavy contusion. To be treated it was necessary for long. Zhukov no longer returned to the front. Georgiy Constantinovich met with February revolution in the march squadron. He sympathetically related to the overthrow of monarchy. They selected Zhukov the chairman of squadron committee and the member of regimental council. After October revolution its quartered in the Kharkov province squadron "arose to the platform of Bolsheviks", it refused to obey Ukrainian authorities and it was dissolved on the houses. During December 1917 Zhukov left to the native land, - in the village it was more easily feed into Strelkovku. During September 1918 they mobilized it into the Red Army. Future general Zhukov served in the 4th Moscow cavalry regiment. There he grew to the assistant to platoon commander and during March 1919 entered the Communist Party. It battled against the Ural cossacks and with the army of General p. N. Wrangel hearth tsarina's, where during October 1919 it was injured by the splinter of grenade into the left foot and the left side. After recovery it fell on Ryazansk cavalry courses. During August student regiment they moved to the Kuban for dealing with the landing of General Sergey ulagaya. Zhukov became the Chief Petty Officer of platoon and he participated in "removal" of remainders of white army and forces of "green" from North Caucasus. At the end of the year it left to suppress uprisings on the Tambov government and in the Voronezh province. For the successful actions against the badly armed and weakly organized peasant- rebels the commander of squadron Zhukov obtained the first Soviet reward - the Order of the Red Banner.

Vorontsov
04-28-2007, 12:52 AM
After Civil War Georgiy Zhukov continued service in the cavalry. In 1924 - 1925 it learned in the cavalry advance courses of executive body. Constantine Rokossovskiy, who was being occupied with it in one group, recalled: "Zhukov, as no one, returned to the study of military science. Let us glance into his room - all, it creeps along the map, decomposed on the floor. Already then the matter, debt for it were above in all ". In 1929-1930 Zhukov again learned - now in the advance courses of the highest overbearing composition, and then he became the commander of cavalry brigade. During March 1933 it headed the 4th cavalry division; in 1936 was obtained the Order of Lenin for the successes of division in the combat training. In 1937 Zhukov accepted the 3rd cavalry housing. In autumn the same years of corps commander (corps commander) they attempted to accuse of the connections with former commanding Belorussian region Geronimo Uborevichem and other "enemies of people". Zhukov reasonably objected, that on the kind of service it could not but contact with the commander of region. As a result during January 1938 the matter limited to party pronunciation "for roughness, for the clamp of self-criticism, the underestimation of political work and insufficient fight with fraud". Pronunciation did not prevent career. In connection with the mass repressions many vacancies were freed, and the surviving commanders rapidly moved on the official stairs - frequently in order to soon also become the victims of terror. But Zhukov passed cup this. Helped the fact that he commanded the division of the 1st horse army. Commanders -konarme1qy traditionally used the patronage of the druggie of Clement Voroshilov's defense. Already into iyuney9e8 g. Zhukov became the deputy of the commander of Belorussian military district on the cavalry. At the dignity into vsyumoshch' unrolled his talent of military leader and clever educator of troops. During May 1940 they appropriated the title of General of the Army to Zhukov. Brilliant victory for Georgiy Constantinovich had deep personal value. It showed, on that was capable volitional chief when since 1937 the combat efficiency of the Red Army yearly, was monthly and daily undermined by mass repressions. On the pointer Of i.V.Stalina and its apprentices tens of thousands of commanders were destroyed, into the prisons, they were wearied in the camps. Itself Of g.K.Zhukov hardly not bollard by the victim of violence - in 1937 in Smolensk it, after perceiving the impending threat of arrest, went to the terrible risk - it sent into Moscow to Stalin and Voroshilov terrible telegram. They were added differently in those years of the fate of people, but Zhukov left at rest. Entire summer and the autumn of 1940 Zhukov constantly was situated in the troops, went the stressed studies under the conditions, approximating combat. The commander of region was exacting to himself and by others - teach what actually will be required in war. In the Soviet general staff the possible versions of war in the case of the attack of Germany has already been discussed. At the end of December 1940 beginnings of January 1941 in Moscow passed the conference of the high command of the Red Army. Its work followed I.V.Stalin. Those being present were struck by depth and courage of suzhdeniyZhukova, presented in its report the "nature of contemporary offensive operations". He with entire seriousness emphasized: before face of the strongest army of the West it is not possible to lose minute, it is necessary to be for the ready to fully armed meet its fierce pressure. Next day Stalin called Zhukov and reported: The Politbureau decided to appoint yegonachal'nikom of General Staff. The general of modern war Zhukov assigned the first place for the swift actions of the tank and mechanized connections, which have powerful support from air. Not immediately and was not suddenly he succeeded in convincing of the correctness of its point of view of Stalin. On the slope of years Zhukov much reflected about the events of eve and beginning of great and terrible war. "certainly, on us - servicemen, said Zhukov, lies responsibility for the fact that we insufficiently required bringing army into full combat readiness and fastest adoption of the necessary measures. Obviously, we had to this make more decisively than they did... Certainly, it was necessary to actually visualize that it meant then to go despite Stalin in the evaluation of all-political situation, in all in the memory still there were the recently past years; and to state aloud that Stalin is unjust, that he makes mistakes, simply speaking, it could then mean that without having yet left the building, you already will go to drink coffee to Beria. And nevertheless this only one side of truth. Aya it must say entire. 4 he did not feel then. Before the war, that 4 grow wiser and it is more foresighted than Stalin, which 4 is better to egootsenivayu situation and more it I know... ".

Vorontsov
04-28-2007, 12:54 AM
On 1 June, 1939, of Zhukov suddenly caused Voroshilov. In the receiving of druggie the corps commander heard about the intrusion of the Japanese to the territory of the union OF THE USSR of Mongolia in the region of river Khalkhin-Gol. "I think, stated Voroshilov, that was ventured serious armed venture and on this the matter it will not end... Can you depart there immediately and... accept to yourselves command?" however, - "it is ready to depart this minute", answered Zhukov. On 5 June he arrived in the staff special Soviet 57- GO of the separate housing, which was being located in the Mongolia. Several days the machine of division commander travelled about along the steppe, Zhukov personally wanted to look around everything. By the experienced eye of commander he evaluated the weak and strong sides of not numerous Soviet-Mongolian troops, which left into Khalkhin-Gol region. He sends into Moscow the urgent report: to immediately strengthen Soviet aviation, to send to the Mongolia not less than three rifle divisions and tank brigade. Purpose - to prepare counterattack. The proposals of Zhukov were accepted. On the night of 3 July the Japanese boosted Khalkhin-Gol and took Bain-Tsagan mountain. In order not to give to enemy to be fastened, Zhukov decided to attack hostile infantry by two tank brigades. In the morning on 5 July the Japanese began to step back to the passage, which proved to be exploded. Almost entire group, which was crossed to the western shore, was destroyed or seized into the captivity. Because of the thoroughly thought out by Zhukov system of disinformation, it was possible to hide from the enemy the approach of large subdivisions from the Soviet Union. The environment basic Japanese forces was planned with the aid of the flank attacks of the tank and mechanized parts. Task was facilitated by the fact that the Japanese practically did not have contemporary tanks, but Soviet aviation after persistent it was combat I could conquer supremacy in air. On 20 August the 1st army group of Zhukov began offensive, and already 31- GO the surrounded enemy troops ended resistance. On 31 August Georgiy Constantinovich reports about the successful completion of operation. Battle on Khalkhin-Gol river, that was mislaid somewhere in Asia, and, until now, known only to historians and to geographers, steeply turned everything in the international life. G.K.Zhukov, for this victory there was dostoyen of the Title of Hero of the Soviet Union, which contributed not only the liquidation of the danger, which hung over above the union to us Mongolian People's Republic, but also to the stabilization of entire situation in the Far East. Khalkhin-Gol openly ster in the memory of the Japanese the idea about our soldier, which in them was formed according to the experience of Russo-Japanese war 1904-1905...

Nickdfresh
04-29-2007, 12:00 AM
Marshall Zhukov was a great general. Anyone that pissed off Stalin, or made him feel insecure, was doing something right!

HnH
04-29-2007, 07:21 AM
Nickdfresh, if only you'd imagine how stupid you are. Listen more to your "free press" and you'll know a lot more interesting things about people like Stalin, who in American interpretation were total morrons. But actually morrons are those americans, who think so :)

Dani
04-29-2007, 01:47 PM
Nickdfresh, if only you'd imagine how stupid you are. Listen more to your "free press" and you'll know a lot more interesting things about people like Stalin, who in American interpretation were total morrons. But actually morrons are those americans, who think so :)

Wrong choice comrade! 1 point for insults.

HnH
04-29-2007, 03:06 PM
Dani, well if you pretend to name yourself as wise, just ask yourself a question: why does a american and european "free press" does not say anything bad about the Lenin, who was the real creator of Gulag camps, the VChK etc; and on the other side they blame Stalin, who returned almost all Russian empires territory, restored Orthodox church, created the Allied coallition, even that 20 years ago USSR and Americans\Englanders were enemies (Foreign intervention in Russian empire at the Civil war), and done all the best he could to win the WW2. The reasons because that histeria has started is the same, because it has started now, around the Putin. Everyone in the west civilization is afraid of a mighty Russia, so they need it to be weak, and this why they do eveything they could to make other people think, that rulers like Stalin were awfull for Soviet Union.

P.S. Actually I am not interested in prooving you something, just think about this, and try to be fair atleast in front of yourself.

Dani
04-29-2007, 06:16 PM
You are right. I should quote only this one to make clear my warning:


Nickdfresh, if only you'd imagine how stupid you are.

Panzerknacker
04-29-2007, 06:44 PM
Riga, Soviet Union.


HnH I just want to let you now that Riga is the capital city of Latvia, and it did not belong to the Soviet Union since 1991...you should now better.:mrgreen:

http://www.unicef.org/spanish/infobycountry/images/ibc_map_latvia_en.gif


And I really dont like Zhukov, he expend too many human lives in order to get his objetives, it must be somebody else better than him.

RifleMan20
04-29-2007, 07:48 PM
who are all the russain generals i have not studied them much if anyone can name them

HnH
04-30-2007, 11:57 AM
HnH I just want to let you now that Riga is the capital city of Latvia, and it did not belong to the Soviet Union since 1991...you should now better.:mrgreen:

http://www.unicef.org/spanish/infobycountry/images/ibc_map_latvia_en.gif

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/soviet_union_admin_1974.jpg



And I really dont like Zhukov, he expend too many human lives in order to get his objetives, it must be somebody else better than him.

He is not my favourite marshal as well, but if you've made your opinion about him relying to the modern TV channels such as Discovery, or Viasat History it's better everything, that you belive to be truth. Even german commanders, who were fighting against him, and have lost, are far more truthful.

HnH
04-30-2007, 11:58 AM
who are all the russain generals i have not studied them much if anyone can name them

Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Konev, Malinovsky, Tolbukhin, Vasilevsky, Govorov, Mereckov, Eremenko, Bagramyan.

Panzerknacker
04-30-2007, 12:45 PM
You can post a map with the size of a house if you want, it still dont belong to the soviet union, the soviet did not exist anymore. get use to the news man. :roll:

HnH
04-30-2007, 01:07 PM
Well the country that was more then 300 years a part of Russian empire\USSR, and now is independent, less then 40 years in a sum, looks really funny. Btw it's not independent any more - it is a part of european union now.

Polar
04-30-2007, 02:26 PM
My number one is Ivan Konev. Konev safe Krakow and this is reason why he is for me number one

HnH
04-30-2007, 02:59 PM
I don't like Konev, he betrayed Rokossovsky, and because of that Rokossovsky had to sit few years in prison. My favourite marshal is Rokossovsky. He was true war genious.

arhob1
05-01-2007, 01:53 PM
And I really dont like Zhukov, he expend too many human lives in order to get his objetives, it must be somebody else better than him.

I totally agree with you Panzerknacker. I have read a great deal about Zhukov. He was no doubt a great general, but he sometimes implemented stupid orders from Stalin that resulted in horrendous losses. In some ways he was a psychophant to Stalin as some of Hitler's general were too.

I prefer Rokossovsky who did on several occasions challenge Zhukov's orders. I believe Zhukov was also very quick to use the death penalty on his troops with HUGE numbers being executed on his say so. That said Zhukov was trusted by Stalin to bring military disasters under control quickly.

Both of them of course were under constant scrutiny by Stalin and the NKVD, if they had questioned an order too rigorously then there can be little doubt they would soon be dead. No Western general had that type of pressure on their shoulders!

I read some where recently that Russians themselves vote Zhukov as their greatest WW2 general.

Panzerknacker
05-01-2007, 09:48 PM
He is not my favourite marshal as well, but if you've made your opinion about him relying to the modern TV channels such as Discovery, or Viasat History it's better everything, that you belive to be truth. Even german commanders, who were fighting against him, and have lost, are far more truthful.

I try to not wacht TV because unfortunately I have cable. The only operation in wich the german losses were bigger than the Russian was Bagration, I did not recolect any other time.


I totally agree with you Panzerknacker. I have read a great deal about Zhukov. He was no doubt a great general, but he sometimes implemented stupid orders from Stalin that resulted in horrendous losses. In some ways he was a psychophant to Stalin as some of Hitler's general were too

Yea, unfortunately I did not know many about the russian military to give a solid opinion but ..it must be someone better.

Nickdfresh
05-02-2007, 08:20 PM
You are right. I should quote only this one to make clear my warning:

But I am stupid!:)

I'm also a morron!

nosta3824382
05-08-2007, 04:10 PM
Zhukov lost a lot of man because war factor . He command battle of Moskov in 1941 and have smaller number in tank and gun .And his enemy have more technology and skill by far .He command people of Stalingrad to fight with 6th Panzer armee who r the strongest army in the world and win. Operation Uranus were one of the best military move and chang the face of the war .In Kursk he have more men and more tank in ratio 1.5/1 not mean he have stronger force .German force take a lot of country and make 10 on 1 killing ratio as daily task . New Panzer and Tiger can make 5 on 1 killing ratio on ally tank.But he can win
Operation Bagration Zhukov control whole front and miss inform German and let them redeployed one third of Group Army Centre's artillery, half their tank destroyers and eighty eight percent of their tanks to the Southern front where the German high command expected the next major Soviet offensive.
And make The Soviets were able to achieve a ratio of ten to one in tanks and seven to one in aircraft over their enemy. At the points of attack then Rokossovski use this advantage to take German .But Rokossovski should credit in case of he make 2 penetration point and make German hard too retreat.
He not only have battle tactic . He control grand strategy and help Soviet to win the war.

Kato
05-16-2007, 11:44 AM
"One of my favourite Russian General is Marshal Zhukov.
Marshal Zhukov - marshal of the victory During its centuries-old history Russian state repeatedly underwent aggression." Vorontsov

Man. I am frightened. You say you are a schoolboy. Am I right? Your teacher of history must be a sort of gaga communist. Zhukov's talents has very little to do with ability to win battles effectively without incurring heavy losses. All the intellectual work that dealt with planning military operations was fulfilled by his deputies, other Soviet generals who had an ability and telant to accomplish it. After the plan was ready there was Zhukov's turn. He had to ensure that Soviet troops would fulfill the plan and orders at any cost ( start offensives in time, seize some towns or strategic points etc. regardless the fact that such offensives for plenty of Soviet units was a suicide.) His methods to achieve this goal were extremely brutal. There were pleny testimonies that he swore all the time, insult, humiliate and even beat soviet officers in front of others. He didn't value the lives of Soviet soldiers. His reactions to the extremely high rate of losses among soldiers under his command was " Ничего мамки еще солдат народят " ( I don't care. Women will give birth to lots of other soldiers ). The cult of his personality was initiated after Stalin's death when he aided Krushchov to seize power and square accounts with Beria. One of the greatest manifestation of Zhukov's military telants was military exercises conducted after the war in Kazahstan. Zhukov suggested that about 30000 Soviet troops should pass through the areas where an A-bomb was tested a few hours before imitating an assault on enemy's positions after a nueclear strike. He decided that it will be a unique demonstration of Soviet power. As a result of it 30000 sound males became invalids and died in agony in the following years.

Chevan
05-16-2007, 05:52 PM
Man. I am frightened. You say you are a schoolboy. Am I right? Your teacher of history must be a sort of gaga communist.

Well the comride Vorontsov is a good boy.
He is not UPA nationalist unlike you Kato.
And he is right, inspite of all his lacks the Zhukov was a one of the best soviet General.
And the peoples memory remember it good untill now.


Zhukov's talents has very little to do with ability to win battles effectively without incurring heavy losses. All the intellectual work that dealt with planning military operations was fulfilled by his deputies, other Soviet generals who had an ability and telant to accomplish it. After the plan was ready there was Zhukov's turn.

this is the pure DEMAGOGY.
Each hight general is responsible for the competention and professionalism of his stuff- its depend of his ability to be as a hight commander.
The Zhukov had personally formed his staff( as any other high commander)


He had to ensure that Soviet troops would fulfill the plan and orders at any cost ( start offensives in time, seize some towns or strategic points etc. regardless the fact that such offensives for plenty of Soviet units was a suicide.)

This is the not the only soviet prerogative but and Germans also.
There a lot of cases when Hitlers did not let the Germans to leave the cuptured cities and areas for the ONLY political aims.
Moreover fr instance the such a inportaint battles ( both in war and political sense) like battle for the Moscow and Stalingrad when the the question was -who will won the war in the East - there is no other choice to use the any possibility for the victory including the lives of own soldiers.
But i know you are incapable to understand this ....


His methods to achieve this goal were extremely brutal. There were pleny testimonies that he swore all the time, insult, humiliate and even beat soviet officers in front of others.

Yes sometimes he used a fists , but i did not heare the somebody of those generals complained about it in its memours ( vise verse the everybody respected him)


He didn't value the lives of Soviet soldiers. His reactions to the extremely high rate of losses among soldiers under his command was " Ничего мамки еще солдат народят " ( I don't care. Women will give birth to lots of other soldiers ).

This is false..
If he really told this during the war this inevitably will has the bad consequences for him form NKVD.


The cult of his personality was initiated after Stalin's death when he aided Krushchov to seize power and square accounts with Beria.

He simply was the FIRST men who controlled the Soviet Army after the deaths of Stalin. So this is old propogandic fary tells about his cult.
Later during the Khrushev come to the power his role even continiously decreased.


One of the greatest manifestation of Zhukov's military telants was military exercises conducted after the war in Kazahstan. Zhukov suggested that about 30000 Soviet troops should pass through the areas where an A-bomb was tested a few hours before imitating an assault on enemy's positions after a nueclear strike. He decided that it will be a unique demonstration of Soviet power. As a result of it 30000 sound males became invalids and died in agony in the following years.
And what will you say clever boy ,if i tell you that the USA army also had a A-bombing tests with participation of american troops ?
Those kind of test was a tupical for the end of 1940 -1950-yy in the boths USA and USSR when there were still a litlle understanding about radiation.
BTW the Zhukov war talant still much more then the "war genius" of the leaderd of terrorist UPA-OUN groups. The all what they were capable to invent - was just the "ethnic clearings" of the civil population of the western Ukraine . Nothing more.

Kato
05-17-2007, 07:45 AM
He didn't value the lives of Soviet soldiers. His reactions to the extremely high rate of losses among soldiers under his command was " Ничего мамки еще солдат народят " ( I don't care. Women will give birth to lots of other soldiers ).

This is false..
If he really told this during the war this inevitably will has the bad consequences for him form NKVD.


Don't make me laugh. The NKVD troops were used as заград. отряды (special detachment that shot at the backs of Soviet Soldiers if they didn't show much zeal in assaulting German positions) According to Chevan NKVD was an organisation of humanists that did nothing but protected the basic principles of humanism.

Panzerknacker
05-20-2007, 01:46 PM
Kato, this is a topic about Generals right, I deleted your 2 completely off topic post in here.

Also I recomend you download your tone when you are questioning other member , the agressivenes in not allowed here.

Dani
05-20-2007, 02:25 PM
I fully second Panzerknacker.

Kato
05-21-2007, 10:08 AM
Zhukov war talant still much more then the "war genius" of the leaderd of terrorist UPA-OUN groups. The all what they were capable to invent - was just the "ethnic clearings" of the civil population of the western Ukraine . Nothing more.
Chevan

Is it much to the point and it complies with the topic to say that Ukrainians invented ethnic clearings?

And why did you delete my post where I explained that the military exercises conducted this "war genius" Zhukov lead to the death of 30000 Soviet troops from radiation due to his derogation of human lives. He conduced these exercises long afterwards the bombing of Heroshima and Nagasaki when the destructive effects of radiation was known to everyone. I just expressed my opinion about one of the discussed generals. What was wrong with it?

Jan Fiala
10-12-2007, 01:50 PM
My favourite Russian general is Vlasov, because he fought aggainist communists.

by the way: Russians liberated Prague, but in German uniforms. :D (ROA)

alephh
10-15-2007, 10:24 AM
"Cannibal marshal" Zhukov (who often did costly massed frontal attacks and sent telegrams (see telegram 4976) announcing that families of soldiers captured by Germans and returned prisoners would be shot) is the funniest because he was so brutal, he lost often and still managed to create "public image" that he was victorious :-D

At Istra Reservoir all the soviet commanders tried to explain him that "we need to withdraw", but poor Zhukov just didn't get it, and as a result germans got huge victory and a soviet army got annihilated.

Some historians say totally failed second Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive was meant to be more important than Battle of Stalingrad for Russians, but wouldn't you know, Zhukov managed to miscarry that too.

At the Battle of Berlin Zhukov was so sloooow that Konev's unit even managed to explore area above Hitler's bunker before the poor Zhukov managed to arrive there.

And his memoirs is completely filled with errors as many soviet commanders have pointed out.


_

Chevan
10-16-2007, 12:55 AM
My favourite Russian general is Vlasov, because he fought aggainist communists.

by the way: Russians liberated Prague, but in German uniforms. :D (ROA)
But from this prospect the best general is ... Further of Germany.
Coz he was a best fighter agains Bolshevism.

Chevan
10-16-2007, 01:08 AM
Whatever you think guys, but today i,m cleraly know - the best soviet Genaral was...Comride Stalin.
He was only the strategist in Red Army. :)
But i've read the book about him - when after the war the Soviet Stuff was in conflict with Zuckov - he defended Zickov by such words-"Leave him - he was not so talent commander like Rokossovskij, but he was at least as good as Konev".
So i think he is clearly expressed his personal answer who was the best- General Rokossovskij.
The Polish-russian man who should captured the Berlin together with Konev, but was removed by Stalin one month befor.

tridentina
10-16-2007, 09:00 AM
My favourite Russian general is Vlasov, because he fought aggainist communists.

by the way: Russians liberated Prague, but in German uniforms. :D (ROA)

I'm agree with you: General Andrey Andreyevich Vlasov

Vorontsov
10-18-2007, 01:03 PM
Извените у меня нет переводчика. Sory i dont have a translator. Если он освободитель, то почему он и его подченённые убивали мирное население, подло стреляли им в спину. Это относится ко всем "освободителям" против сталинского режима например РОА, УПА и т.д. И вообще он трус, попал в окружение и захотел выжить, вот и сказал, что против Сталина и народа, так что, он чистой воды придатель!

Kato
10-18-2007, 01:24 PM
Извените у меня нет переводчика. Sory i dont have a translator. Если он освободитель, то почему он и его подченённые убивали мирное население, подло стреляли им в спину. Это относится ко всем "освободителям" против сталинского режима например РОА, УПА и т.д. И вообще он трус, попал в окружение и захотел выжить, вот и сказал, что против Сталина и народа, так что, он чистой воды придатель!

The brief essence is of the post is that UPA and ROA soldiers are criminals and betrayers who killed civilians.

There is the principal difference between ROA and UPA. UPA was founded by the the Organization of Ukrainian nationalists ( Ukrainian military organization in the 1920s) that had fought in the Western Ukraine against the Polish occupation since 192Os. Their attitude to Stalin and the Soviet Union was clear from the very beginning. The ROA was formed by Germans from the Soviet POWs and have never been an independent structure

Vorontsov
10-18-2007, 01:30 PM
Да, но я к чему веду, что они были не освободителями, особенно Власов, а предатели.

Kato
10-18-2007, 01:54 PM
Да, но я к чему веду, что они были не освободителями, особенно Власов, а предатели.

Brief translation
They, especially Vlasov, were traitors.

Well it is correct in regards of Vlasov who was a Soviet general and it means he was an active and important part of the Soviet regime.

However, it is not true in respect of the Ukrainian nationalists and insurgents who always
declared the Soviet regime, communists as one of their main enemies.
So how is it possible to betray someone who you openly call and treat as enemy all the time?

It is not true in respect of those Ukrainians and others who were mobilized to the Red Army and later decided to join UPA as they knew that joining UPA did not give them any benefits and did not save their lives. On the contrary they knew it would decrease their chances to survive.

Panzerknacker
10-18-2007, 07:30 PM
Vorontsov, no more cirilic please.

Chevan
10-18-2007, 11:44 PM
Good Comride Vorontsov.
You are in a right way;)
Just please use the translataror my fried
http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

Chevan
10-18-2007, 11:56 PM
Brief translation
However, it is not true in respect of the Ukrainian nationalists and insurgents who always
declared the Soviet regime, communists as one of their main enemies.

And you are forgetting Kato about Jews and Poles in Ukraine- they also were declared as a "main enemies" By UPA-OUN leaders in 1941 when Germans had come to Ukraine ;)
The cruel "ethnical clearising" in Volun and Galicia - this is the good evidence of it.


So how is it possible to betray someone who you openly call and treat as enemy all the time?

Yes...
But they betrayed not the USSR, thay betrayed the our Anti-germnans coailitin.
Theu fight not as much with Germans as with polish AK and Soviet partisans and troops ( who fight agaist fascist).
And they betrayed and fought with the GIANT part of Ukraines who sincerely fought together with Red Army and soviet partisans.


It is not true in respect of those Ukrainians and others who were mobilized to the Red Army and later decided to join UPA as they knew that joining UPA did not give them any benefits and did not save their lives. On the contrary they knew it would decrease their chances to survive.
But you are ignoring fact that the MOST of ukrainians joined not to the UPA but to the Soviet partisans ( especially in the central and easter-southern regions).
In fact that the Soviet partisans WERE the most mass ANTI-GERMAN force in Ukraine till the 1944.

Digger
10-19-2007, 07:24 AM
Chuikov-the saviour of Stalingrad.

regards digger

Kato
10-19-2007, 11:01 AM
But you are ignoring fact that the MOST of ukrainians joined not to the UPA but to the Soviet partisans ( especially in the central and easter-southern regions).
In fact that the Soviet partisans WERE the most mass ANTI-GERMAN force in Ukraine till the 1944.

Most of Ukrainians were mobilised to the Red Army. The refusal to join the Red Army meant death.

Southern and Esatern regions were free from any mass partisan movements as there are steppes and it was impossible to establish partisan bases and kept them in secret from Germans.

The Soviet partisan movement in Ukraine originated and concentrated in the north-eastern forest territories of Ukraine.

You seemed to agree that Official Soviet WWII history mentions that in 1944 there were 250.000 Soviet partizans active in Belarus, Russia, Ukraine. And 185000 partizans got medal (during or after the war). The Soviet partisan movement lasted 3 years( 1941-1944)

OUN units later became known as UPA fought since 1941 - till late 1950s. As a result during all these years over 700000 men volonteered to participated in the UPA war against German troops, Polish AK and punitive NKVD units




But they betrayed not the USSR, thay betrayed the our Anti-germnans coailitin. Theu fight not as much with Germans as with polish AK and Soviet partisans and troops ( who fight agaist fascist).

And they betrayed and fought with the GIANT part of Ukraines who sincerely fought together with Red Army and soviet partisans.

First of all they never signed any treaties with that anti-German coalition.
Besides you contradicts yourselfas in the next sentence you admit that OUN-UPA fought against Germans.

Soviet partisans units in Ukraine (whose official headquarters were in Moscow) were ordered to attack UPA first as soon as Soviet leaders in Moscow started to receive plenty of reports about collaboration of Soviet partisan units with UPA or their open recognition of nationalistic ideology and the nationalistic leadership and the denial of communism

Librarian
10-19-2007, 03:48 PM
So i think he is clearly expressed his personal answer who was the best- General Rokossovskij. The Polish-russian man who should captured the Berlin together with Konev, but was removed by Stalin one month befor.

For me General Rokosovsky was the second best commanding officer of the Soviet Army. The best man - by my personal opinion - was the youngest, 36 years old, Soviet General of the Army Ivan Danilovich Cherniakhovsky – double hero of the Soviet Union, whose military genius is still undully forgotten.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Chernyahovsky_ID.jpg

This brilliant military leader, egregious tactician, remarkably vital tactical innovator of armored units, tank expert, colorful and dashing improver of pretty rigid original war plans, as well as remarkably pleasing personality, inspired not only the affection and devotion of his men, but even engendered a deep respect of his enemies.

Vorontsov
10-20-2007, 04:52 AM
In the first you prostite for kirilitsu, it more not it will be, in the second about work Of upa with the partisans, yes such cases were and this is documentary confirmed, but so, it is confirmed that they collaborated in order to obtain potrony and to that podomnoye, but so, for the development of intelligence officers and deversantov in the rear of Germany, indeed because of them it was killed Kuznetsov, which planiryval murder to Cube.

Kato
10-20-2007, 10:44 AM
In the first you prostite for kirilitsu, it more not it will be, in the second about work Of upa with the partisans, yes such cases were and this is documentary confirmed, but so, it is confirmed that they collaborated in order to obtain potrony and to that podomnoye, but so, for the development of intelligence officers and deversantov in the rear of Germany, indeed because of them it was killed Kuznetsov, which planiryval murder to Cube.



There is a separate tread about the Ukrainain Insurgent Army in this forum. If you need some informtion or wish to continue discussion.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790

Yes, the training of Ukrainain members of OUN in Germany had taken place before the war in the USSR. As well as the training of many noted German officers in Soviet military academies. The UPA fighters managd to obtain ammunition and weapons from some German, Hungarian and Romanian units when they were retreating from Ukraine. Some historians say that it was a deliberate decision of senior German commanders to hand over stores of weapon to Ukrainians. Some historians said that it was rather the agreements between UPA that promised stopped attacks on Germans and their ally armies while their retreating in exchange of weapon. Perhaps both variants took place. The very same situation was with Polsih AK. The leaders of UPA who survived in Germans concentration camps were set free at that time.

The murder of Kuznetsov took place when he thought his mission was over and was trying to escape and return to the areas controlled by the Red Army. His real identity of a soviet spy was known only to his bosses in Moscow. So while moving alone in German uniform to rejoin the Soviets he came across a few men from UPA that had a routine patrolling of the area. They shot him at once as a German officer.

Chevan
10-22-2007, 03:14 AM
For me General Rokosovsky was the second best commanding officer of the Soviet Army. The best man - by my personal opinion - was the youngest, 36 years old, Soviet General of the Army Ivan Danilovich Cherniakhovsky – double hero of the Soviet Union, whose military genius is still undully forgotten.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Chernyahovsky_ID.jpg

This brilliant military leader, egregious tactician, remarkably vital tactical innovator of armored units, tank expert, colorful and dashing improver of pretty rigid original war plans, as well as remarkably pleasing personality, inspired not only the affection and devotion of his men, but even engendered a deep respect of his enemies.

Sure my dear friend you right.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Chernyahovsky_ID.jpg
The General Chernijakovskj was a brillian and outstanding example among all of the Soviet generals.
The commander of 3-rd belorussian front in 1944 he had realised the most succesfull soviet strategic offensives in the Belorussia.
Under his command the Group Army Centre was FINALY crushed and destroyed.
Unfortinatelly this man was mortally wounded in feb of 1945 by the germans atillery shell and died in Eastern Prussia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Chernyakhovsky
The foggoten hero of the Soviet Union.

Chevan
10-22-2007, 04:50 AM
Most of Ukrainians were mobilised to the Red Army. The refusal to join the Red Army meant death.

The refusal means not death but repressions.
And sure they were mobilized to the Red Army coz they were the citizents of the USSR, and this was their first duty to defend its motherland.
The other question - is did they do it volunatry. Sure they were voluntaries. Coz it was under control of Communist Ukrainian authorities;)


Southern and Esatern regions were free from any mass partisan movements as there are steppes and it was impossible to establish partisan bases and kept them in secret from Germans.

The Soviet partisan movement in Ukraine originated and concentrated in the north-eastern forest territories of Ukraine.

Yes Kato , my mistake.The most mass Pertisan activity areas were in North-East forests.
I was meaning just the Ukraine sympathies for the pro-soviet partisans.


You seemed to agree that Official Soviet WWII history mentions that in 1944 there were 250.000 Soviet partizans active in Belarus, Russia, Ukraine. And 185000 partizans got medal (during or after the war). The Soviet partisan movement lasted 3 years( 1941-1944)

As well as i know the 200 000 was ONLY in Ukraine. In Belorusia in 1943 about 60 000 and about the same in Russia.


OUN units later became known as UPA fought since 1941 - till late 1950s. As a result during all these years over 700000 men volonteered to participated in the UPA war against German troops, Polish AK and punitive NKVD units

From other hand the Germans sources give us the figures from 35 000 to 200 000 members of UPA in the mid 1943.
SO there is no any exact figures of it.It's wrong to compare the figures of all "alleged members" with the ones who really fight for the this time.


First of all they never signed any treaties with that anti-German coalition.

But they actively interact withe Germans until the 1941. The Urrain nationalists have greeted the Nazi "Libaration" in summer 1941.
Besids they NEVER signed the any treates AGAINST Germany.
Instead they fought agains AK and Soviet partisans who fought against Germans.


Besides you contradicts yourselfas in the next sentence you admit that OUN-UPA fought against Germans.

I've never contrruducted with myself Kato.
Yes the UPA fought agains Germans , but they also fought agains the GErmans Enemies in regionPoles and pro-soviets Ukrainians.
This dual behaviour were very convenient for them - from one hand they were not a mortal ideological enemies of Germans like the soviets and AK ( this was useful for the colloboration with GErmans in way to receive the amunition and wearpon) , from other hand they were a "fighters for independence" ( Mostly from civil poles and Moskalei).i.e they were not an Axis-force.
Thus in general - the "actions" of UPA was not as much positive for the fight of Anti-german coalition as Nagitive in issue of Ethnical clearising of civils and fight against the Anti-germans forces in region.


Soviet partisans units in Ukraine (whose official headquarters were in Moscow) were ordered to attack UPA first as soon as Soviet leaders in Moscow started to receive plenty of reports about collaboration of Soviet partisan units with UPA or their open recognition of nationalistic ideology and the nationalistic leadership and the denial of communism

Oh really Kato , the dastard Stalin refuse the goodwill UPA to join ;)
Your naivety sometimes bothers me.
Initially the Stepan Bandera and his friends declare the "Moskali, jews and poles" as the MAIN enemy of Ukraine nation , take the programm of Ethnically clear Ukraine, and then they suddenly ....ask the Red Army to join the fight.
There is no fools, Kato.:D
To cooperatation with UPA murders of Slav-polish population si a crime.
No one will interact with a such "Fighers for independens " like the UPA was.
Except the CIA during the coold War;) but this is whole other thread...

Kato
10-23-2007, 04:39 AM
Initially the Stepan Bandera and his friends declare the "Moskali, jews and poles" as the MAIN enemy of Ukraine nation , take the programm of Ethnically clear Ukraine, and then they suddenly ....ask the Red Army to join the fight.
There is no fools, Kato.
To cooperatation with UPA murders of Slav-polish population si a crime.
No one will interact with a such "Fighers for independens " like the UPA was.
Except the CIA during the coold War but this is whole other thread...


I don't see any common sense in this statement. You are unfamiliar with all the origianal programs and works of OUN. There were Russians in OUN-UPA as well as many other non- Ukrainain volonteers. You just repeat the standard cliches of the Soviet propaganda that produced slander in industrial extent.

Read at least the project of Ukrainian constition drafted by OUN in 1939.

The photocopies of its full text can be found here

http://jerzy.io.com.ua/album49748


According to this document sovereign Ukraine should be a presidential republic.

It stipulated that Ukrainian citizenship was to be granted to all ethnical Ukrainians. People of other nationalities who (or whose parents) had lived in Ukraine since the first of August 1914 also received citizernship.
The foreign persons married to citizens were to receive citizernship as well.
The constitution declared the gender equality. It guaranteed the free education to all the citizens.

Chevan
10-23-2007, 07:31 AM
Read at least the project of Ukrainian constition drafted by OUN in 1939.

The photocopies of its full text can be found here

http://jerzy.io.com.ua/album49748

Oh that's great.
Let study this "masterpieces" more carefully.


Article 1
Ukraine is sovereign, authoritarian, totalitarian, professional-corporative state that bears title Ukrainian State.
Hmmmn that's very good Kato.
Totalitarian authoritarian Ukraine is the compliment for the comride Stalin;)


Article 2
The system of power in Ukraine is constructed in compliance with the principles of nationalcratia.
Nationacratia - power of Nation and State, which based on organized and solidary support of all social groups, ... .
Article 3.
Whole the power in Ukraine state belongs for the Ukraine Nation.
The Ukrainian nation rules through the Chief of Nation.

Hmmmn the power belong the Nation....it seem i've heared it somewhere, yes the speech of Adolf Hitler.
Well you mst Kato in a right way.
And do not worry about National minorities:dirty Jews, Moskali, gipsyes and other poles:)
They have NO ANY RIGHTS, they OUT of law.


Part3: The head of State - the Chief of Nation

OH why Chief of Nation - the Fuehrer of Nation is much better and more exactly.:)


The main principles of nationalcratia - national solidarity, ideas of close interaction between social classes and political parties.

According to this document sovereign Ukraine should be a presidential republic.

Yea ....Fascist Republic that headed by Chief of Nation;)


It stipulated that Ukrainian citizenship was to be granted to all ethnical Ukrainians. People of other nationalities who (or whose parents) had lived in Ukraine since the first of August 1914 also received citizernship.
The foreign persons married to citizens were to receive citizernship as well.
The constitution declared the gender equality. It guaranteed the free education to all the citizens.
And what's about the peoples whose parents did not live in Ukraine untill 1914?
Right - they HAVE no any rights and must be deported of killed.
And the history of the OUN activity is obviously proved this.
It sadly mst Kato that for the fair trumpery you do not see the Fascist sence of this "constitution".
But this is not amazing for the man who really consider the blacks as the genetically determined Low Race, right Kato?

Kato
10-23-2007, 03:05 PM
Hmmmn the power belong the Nation....it seem i've heared it somewhere, yes the speech of Adolf Hitler.

It is written in the constitutions of nearly each state except some absolute monarchies.

Kato
10-23-2007, 03:08 PM
OH why Chief of Nation - the Fuehrer of Nation is much better and more exactly

Yes. Of course presidents in presidential republics are heads of the nations

Kato
10-23-2007, 03:14 PM
And what's about the peoples whose parents did not live in Ukraine untill 1914?
Right - they HAVE no any rights and must be deported of killed.
And the history of the OUN activity is obviously proved this.
It sadly mst Kato that for the fair trumpery you do not see the Fascist sence of this "constitution".
But this is not amazing for the man who really consider the blacks as the genetically determined Low Race, right Kato?

And what about modern Baltic states. They did not give their citizenship to many people ( it seems to me on the same grounds of certain time restrictions). Modern France and the US also used the time restrictions on leagising emigrants.

So where are there piles of bodies of killed illegals in the "Nazi" US and France and the mass escape of Russians back to their Russia from Baltic states?

Chevan
10-24-2007, 02:50 AM
And what about modern Baltic states. They did not give their citizenship to many people ( it seems to me on the same grounds of certain time restrictions).

Yea they organise the parades of Waffen SS and instals the monuments for the Fascist soldiers.
It seem they are the IDEAL for you?The state with the Race restrictions, right?


Modern France and the US also used the time restrictions on leagising emigrants.

Oh yea....
In both those states the ALL people could receive the citizenship after 3-5 years of continious living.
In the OUN constitution the ALL people who come to the Ukraine after 1914 were the OUT of low - they could not even dream to get the right as a citizents.
So for 25 years of living ( since 1914-1939) the people who had even the children - but were STILL not citizens.
This is exactly the families of Poles and Russians who come the Ukraine in 1920-1938.
The aim of this "constitution" was to make them ALL OUT of LAW.


So where are there piles of bodies of killed illegals in the "Nazi" US and France and the mass escape of Russians back to their Russia from Baltic states?
In a Volun mass-graves:)

Chevan
10-24-2007, 02:57 AM
It is written in the constitutions of nearly each state except some absolute monarchies.
Find out pliease at least single constitution where the Chief of Nation ( or leader of nation) is declared in the head of the Nation?

Kato
10-24-2007, 03:16 AM
Oh yea....
In both those states the ALL people could receive the citizenship after 3-5 years of continious living.

It concerns only those who live and work in the US on the legal basis and does not cover illegals. Don't know about the US and France. In modern Germany it takes 5 years for a foreigner who come to work ( legally) to secure the right of open visa only. So you may start a fight against all the states of the world as they are Nazi according to your notions.


In the OUN constitution the ALL people who come to the Ukraine after 1914 were the OUT of low - they could not even dream to get the right as a citizents.
So for 25 years of living ( since 1914-1939) the people who had even the children - but were STILL not citizens.
This is exactly the families of Poles and Russians who come the Ukraine in 1920-1938.
The aim of this "constitution" was to make them ALL OUT of LAW

Go on. Then you would evidently be protecting the right of Nazi German colonists to live in Russia if Germany had won the war.

Chevan
10-24-2007, 04:47 AM
It concerns only those who live and work in the US on the legal basis and does not cover illegals. Don't know about the US and France. In modern Germany it takes 5 years for a foreigner who come to work ( legally) to secure the right of open visa only. So you may start a fight against all the states of the world as they are Nazi according to your notions.

Sure i will start to fight with all ot them:)
Right after i've finish the fascism in Ukraine:)


Go on. Then you would evidently be protecting the right of Nazi German colonists to live in Russia if Germany had won the war.
Any "colonists" who lived in Russia 25 years are not a colonits Kato, but sitizen ( sure if he lived legally)
But if the Germany should win the war - the all germans would lagal in Whole Europe( and in Ukraine it they should be especially welcomed);)

Kato
10-24-2007, 05:50 AM
Any "colonists" who lived in Russia 25 years are not a colonits Kato, but sitizen ( sure if he lived legally)
But if the Germany should win the war - the all germans would lagal in Whole Europe( and in Ukraine it they should be especially welcomed)

Then if the German Reich had collapsed, the Nazi German colonists would remain the owners of Russia and Russians would traditionally prefer to remain their slaves.

Chevan
10-24-2007, 06:08 AM
Then if the German Reich had collapsed, the Nazi German colonists would remain the owners of Russia and Russians would traditionally prefer to remain their slaves.
After the German collaps about 30 000 of former germans pows has remained to live in Volga region. And they were the CITIZENTS of the USSR . Nobody limited them in a civil rights- they were like the russians.
Many of them still live in here( but the big part has emigrated to the GErmany after the 1991)

Kato
10-24-2007, 06:30 AM
After the German collaps about 30 000 of former germans pows has remained to live in Volga region. And they were the CITIZENTS of the USSR . Nobody limited them in a civil rights- they were like the russians.
Many of them still live in here( but the big part has emigrated to the GErmany after the 1991)

If you mean Germans who lived in the Volga region before WWII they were deported during the war.

As to the number of Germans POWs who stayed in the USSR they were entirely prohibited to keep up contacts with their relatives in Germany and were watched by KGB. They did not pose any threats and were ready to get assimilated.

Chevan
10-24-2007, 07:12 AM
If you mean Germans who lived in the Volga region before WWII they were deported during the war.

No i mean that germans who staeyd after ww2 voluntary.


As to the number of Germans POWs who stayed in the USSR they were entirely prohibited to keep up contacts with their relatives in Germany and were watched by KGB. They did not pose any threats and were ready to get assimilated.
They did not pose any threats sure, but Western Germany could threat for the USSR being in the enemy NATO block.
Except the limited of contacts with German relativies ( as and for any OTHER soviet sitizents the personal correspondence with Western States were limited or forbidden at all) the Germans HAD NO CIVIL limitations in the USSR.

Jan Fiala
11-11-2007, 02:11 PM
But from this prospect the best general is ... Further of Germany.
Coz he was a best fighter agains Bolshevism.

Vlasov's men (ROA) were POW's in German concentration camps, who did can fight in conjunction with Germans or die of hunger. You can also know Stalin brand them as traitors.

Vlasov knew about Soviet crimes, so he joined Germans in capacity nation which fought aggainist bolsheviks.

Chevan
11-11-2007, 02:41 PM
Vlasov's men (ROA) were POW's in German concentration camps, who did can fight in conjunction with Germans or die of hunger. You can also know Stalin brand them as traitors.

But they WERE a traitors indeed.
The fought for NAzy.
You contradict with yourself.
If the Vlasov seen the condition in the Nazy concentrations camp ( the mass famine and cruel treating of the soviet pows) - how he could think that Nazy will better treat russian population if Germany would win the war?


Vlasov knew about Soviet crimes, so he joined Germans in capacity nation which fought aggainist bolsheviks.
So in you mind he did not guess about Nazy crimes especially commited toward the Soviet POWs and Civilians in occuped terrotories?

Jan Fiala
11-13-2007, 09:30 AM
I don't contradict with myself.

1) Vlasov was captured by Germans. Who he ought to have join? Japanese?

2) How to defeat evil. Join all evil...


If you call them traitors, Poles, Czech, French, Belgians and other foreginers who fought againist axis must be traitors too.

Oh yes, bolsheviks won so they are kind and all mens, who fought againist them must be bad.

Chevan
11-14-2007, 02:57 AM
I don't contradict with myself.

1) Vlasov was captured by Germans. Who he ought to have join? Japanese?

2) How to defeat evil. Join all evil...


If you call them traitors, Poles, Czech, French, Belgians and other foreginers who fought againist axis must be traitors too.

Oh yes, bolsheviks won so they are kind and all mens, who fought againist them must be bad.

Listen man
I could believe that the German occupation of Cheholovakia wasn't so cruel lake occupation of Rassia, Ukraine, Poland and Ugoslavia.
And i could understand why - the Czechs worked hard for the Nazy- they docile produced a lot of veaponry , have no partisans or seriouse resistence till the most end. So you could love NAzy as much as you can.
However Vlasov who CERTAINLY saw the Nazy relation to the local population: mass murdering and ets.
And ALSO he , being in Nazy concentration camp CLEARLY saw the relation of Nazy to the russian POWs: mass executions, famine and lack of any medical service.
And if even he naivly hoped that Nazy let him to fight for "independent Russia" - he was a finished idiot to believe that Germans will let them to do this if they won the war.
So if sum the all aspects of his tragical life - he was a TRATOR who agreed to serve for the Nazy whatever he dremed or hoped.
The Nazy cynically used him in its anti-soviet propoganda and demorazed by him a lot soviets pows ( the other lovely Nazy "kind of persuasion" was to threat to kill them via the famine and hard work)
So please do not spread any more your rusophobian blunder.
Do not cover it as the "your anti-communism" and other bulshit.
Just be a bold to say- i hate you russians coz you are......
And Vlasov was a GREAT men coz he agreed to kill your peoples together with Nazy;)
That should be honestly at least.
If you do not know the history and do not know that French executed its OWN Nazy coloborationists after the war- you make a great mistake.
Even the french woman who lived with NAzy were covered by the shame for a long time.

Jan Fiala
11-14-2007, 11:04 AM
Mmmmm


And i could understand why - the Czechs worked hard for the Nazy- they docile produced a lot of veaponry , have no partisans or seriouse resistence till the most end. So you could love NAzy as much as you can.

If you don't know anything about "Protektorat", German occupation of my motherland, our resistance etc., don't type such nonsenses. I am patriot so don't type please these lies about my nation.

Listen Chevan, you title them as nazis and traitors. Soviet regime was worse then nazi regime, but soldiers who fought againist Germans with Red army are heroes. How absurd...

I am anticommunist, but I DON'T love nazis! Nazis were swines, but bolsheviks too! If you know history you must realize that fact. Stalinism and nazism were evil, but bolsheviks are glorifed because they won the war.

Jan Fiala
11-14-2007, 12:01 PM
If you think we had no resistance, I can tell you a few numbers (no everything, it would be very difficult to type and translate) about home resistance.

From 137 generals of Czechoslovak army were executed or killed in war 64 + 2 died after war because of aftermath of war. Next 17 were arrested. Next 62 officers of the general staff died during occupation in home resistance.

About assassination of Heydrich and murders of our people you mut know.

Chevan
11-15-2007, 01:57 AM
Well Jan.
Sure i know about assassination of Heydrich, Slovak uprising and Uprising in Prague.
However lets compare some things


From 137 generals of Czechoslovak army were executed or killed in war 64 + 2 died after war because of aftermath of war. Next 17 were arrested. Next 62 officers of the general staff died during occupation in home resistance.
Do you really think this is a much?
Jan do you ever hear how many peoples died in Ukraine, Poland and Yugoslavia?
Even in France and Holand the resistence played much more importaint role then in Chahoslovakia during the war.
Although Germans suppressed them a as well.
Thats what Wiki write about Czech resistence


Czech resistance to Nazi occupation during World War II is a scarcely documented subject, by and large a result of little formal resistance and an effective German policy that deterred acts of resistance or annihilated organizations of resistance
.................................................. .........
In addition to serving as the means of communication between London and Prague, the ÚVOD ( the headquarter of Resistence) was also responsible for the transmission of intelligence and military reports. It did so primarily through the use of a secret radio station, which could reach the Czech population. However, the ÚVOD was known to transmit inaccurate reports, whether false intelligence data or military updates. Sometimes this was intentional. Beneš often urged the ÚVOD to relay falsely optimistic reports of the military situation to improve morale or motivate more widespread resistance.

So as we see the in aim to "improve moral" the UVOD radio simply lie for the allies.
Besides

The ÚVOD’s relationship with the KSČ was an important aspect of its daily functions, as Soviet-Czech relations became a central part of their resistance efforts. The German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 marked a turning point in Soviet-Czech relations. Before the invasion, “the main Communist objective was to stop the imperialist war” and was often sympathetic to the German workers of the Reich. After the invasion, the Resistance began to rely on communist support both within Czechoslovakia and from Moscow. In a broadcast from London on 24 June 1941 via the ÚVOD, Beneš informed his country that “the relationship between our two States thus returned to the pre-Munich situation and the old friendship.”

So there is no any doubts that the pro-communist members were the MAIN part of the Czech resistence.
And when the COMMUNIST CZECH LEADERS has began the uprising in Prague in 5 may 1945 - they simply refuse the help of the Vlasov coz the obvious reason - they could not trust for the trator.
And they also refuse the help of Americans ,they officially asked the Red Army to save the city ( and already through 3 day the soviet tanks had arrived to the Prague)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Prague_liberation_1945_tanks_barricades.jpg
So claiming the Czech communists - you claime the people who organised the first really effective anti-german resistence and who fought to the death with NAzy while the most of "patriots" still hard work for the Germans.

Chevan
11-15-2007, 02:15 AM
Listen Chevan, you title them as nazis and traitors. Soviet regime was worse then nazi regime, but soldiers who fought againist Germans with Red army are heroes. How absurd...

What is absurd Jan - the Czech communists who died in fight against Nazy is absurd.
Sure the "patriots" who feel enough good during NAzy thing that the Soviets "regime" was even worse.
But you could tell this propoganda buls.... for the Americans and Britains may be they wil believe you - but not for me who lived during the "soviet regime" whole 13 years.


I am anticommunist, but I DON'T love nazis! Nazis were swines, but bolsheviks too! If you know history you must realize that fact. Stalinism and nazism were evil, but bolsheviks are glorifed because they won the war.
Do you ever know that Stalin executed the last Bolshevic Trockij already in the 1941?
i guss no, coz you miss the points.

Jan Fiala
11-15-2007, 10:19 AM
Bla bla bla

It's not historican discussion if you use wikipedia as information source. Let's close the discussion, because of guff from wikipedia.

During WWII died very much our people who fought againist nazis. You can vilify them, but not at public forum! I spoke about generals and colonels, but not only them fought againist nazis.


But you could tell this propoganda buls.... for the Americans and Britains may be they wil believe you - but not for me who lived during the "soviet regime" whole 13 years.

You lived in 80's, in the age of Gorbacev. It wasn't Stalinism. I speak about 30's, 40's and 50'!

Chevan
11-15-2007, 11:00 AM
You lived in 80's, in the age of Gorbacev. It wasn't Stalinism. I speak about 30's, 40's and 50'!
Oh do you live during the Stalinism 1930-40.;)
Damn ..im speaking with a grandfather....How old are you, 80?

During WWII died very much our people who fought againist nazis. You can vilify them...
No man- i speak not about who died fighting with NAzy.
You do not slander at me, please.From the most beginning i told about Trators- the peoples who colloborated with Nazy.
And the fact that in Chehoslovakia there were a lot of colloborationists - more then in France, Poland and Ukraine. Therefor the Czech resistence was relatively tiny.
Howeve i NEVER said BAD about peoples who fight agains nazy in Czech undeground - but they were too small part of society.
If you doubt - i 've give you the international source ( more or less reliable) that written by the Brits/Americans.Who BTW agreed that the Czech resistence was MOSLY PRO-COMMUNISTS.
So this is you man - who vilify the Czech communists the leaders of Resistence who died in fight with Nazy.
And if you have nothing to say except "bla bla bla" then lets forget about this OFF TOPIC dicussion.

Kato
11-21-2007, 04:50 AM
Yea... so look for the USA man.
There live over 250++ nationalities today . Strange why it did not collapes
The "rule" is the ONLY for the dastard greedy nationalist leaders who want a more power for themself. But not for the normal states.

The USA is the state of emigrants. I meant the states made up of original nations living on their historic territories.

Moreheaddriller
12-28-2007, 05:35 PM
None of them Go! Rommel

Rising Sun*
12-31-2007, 06:49 AM
None of them Go! Rommel

This is the second of your three utterly silly comments. Try not to make it four.

windrider
01-03-2008, 09:00 AM
I think it's general WINTER.
He was also pretty good against Napoleon.

Egorka
01-03-2008, 11:35 AM
I think it's general WINTER.
He was also pretty good against Napoleon.

USSR + winter = winner
USSR - winter = looser

UK + English Channel = winner
UK - English Channel = looser

USA + no land borders with anyone = winner
USA - no land border with anyone = looser

Like so?

Chevan
01-07-2008, 05:55 AM
USSR + winter = winner
USSR - winter = looser

UK + English Channel = winner
UK - English Channel = looser

USA + no land borders with anyone = winner
USA - no land border with anyone = looser

Like so?

Yea :)
Sure our famouse Marshal of infantry, the greatest russian strategist General FROST is the our main ally agains any of warm-fancier Western inviders.:)
Just look on the his deeds:)
http://victory.rusarchives.ru/img/photos/138_big.jpg
BEFORE
The soldiers of 6 army selebrated the victory in summer of 1942.

http://www.world-war.ru/foto/albums/userpics/10005/st_gefangen034.jpghttp://www.world-war.ru/foto/albums/userpics/10005/st_gefangen014.jpg
AFTER
Stalingrad , January 1943 .
27 degrees below Zero .
the Germans POWs look mostly like this one:)

gumalangi
02-28-2008, 01:49 AM
Konev,.. " spray them with katushyas,... and let our tankist ground them,..."

Covenanter
03-16-2008, 04:34 PM
Zhukov, if only because he was the least inept of the russian general staff, a decent strategist, a pathetic tactician who's only doctrine was sending men to tell death till the enemy runs out of bullets but his strategic sense was good.

In any civilized country where lives of its citizens are valued he'd been sacked as a commander though.

Nickdfresh
03-27-2008, 10:59 AM
Thanks for you "Muppet History Book" definition of Marshal Zhukov, but I think it a bit over simplistic...

Rising Sun*
03-28-2008, 02:12 AM
Thanks for you "Muppet History Book" definition of Marshal Zhukov, but I think it a bit over simplistic...

Maybe, but it's the best he can do. ;)

Major von Mauser
04-01-2008, 06:22 PM
If for pure awesome mustache factor, my favorite Soviet Generals are Budenny and Gorodovikov. I must try to find pictures of them.

Although for pure skills I like Chuikov and Rokossovsky. And whatever side you put him on, Vlasov was a good general too.

Egorka
05-06-2008, 05:26 AM
If you think we had no resistance, I can tell you a few numbers (no everything, it would be very difficult to type and translate) about home resistance.

From 137 generals of Czechoslovak army were executed or killed in war 64 + 2 died after war because of aftermath of war. Next 17 were arrested. Next 62 officers of the general staff died during occupation in home resistance.

About assassination of Heydrich and murders of our people you mut know.

Right.
But then there is also this piculiar comment by the Fuhrer recordet by Mr.Goebbels in his diary on 9 may 1941:


The Fuhrer has great praise for the work the Czechs have been doing in the armaments field. Not a single case of sabotage to date. And what they produce is good, serviceable, and solid. The Czechs have proves themselves. They are hard working and reliable. A valuable acquisition for us. The quantities of the equipment that they brought to us were also very useful. And they are still producing them today. What can the USA do faced with our armaments capability?

Chevan
05-06-2008, 05:52 AM
Actually the Chehoslovakia helped Nazis a lot. Even the Me-262 has been produced there till the most end of war.

Nickdfresh
05-06-2008, 09:00 AM
Right.
But then there is also this piculiar comment by the Fuhrer recordet by Mr.Goebbels in his diary on 9 may 1941:


The Fuhrer has great praise for the work the Czechs have been doing in the armaments field. Not a single case of sabotage to date. And what they produce is good, serviceable, and solid. The Czechs have proves themselves. They are hard working and reliable. A valuable acquisition for us. The quantities of the equipment that they brought to us were also very useful. And they are still producing them today. What can the USA do faced with our armaments capability?


Um Goebbels was a propagandist and had little to do with the field of actual armaments. He was probably talking out of his arse' as usual and quotes from his diary are to be taken with a hefty grain of salt...



Actually the Chehoslovakia helped Nazis a lot. Even the Me-262 has been produced there till the most end of war.

Yes well, the Czechs also had entire villages wiped out after Czech commandos assassination Reinhard Heydrich, which brought down a good deal of repression and eroded whatever support the Germans had there.

B5N2KATE
05-24-2008, 07:42 AM
I know it's off topic, but I believe that is precisely why Reinhardt Heydrich was killed to start with. Czech and British intelligence had already surmised that the reaction to Heydrich's assassination would be all out of proportion, and would probably cost tens of thousands of Czech lives....BUT

It would RUIN Czechoslovakia as a co-operative/productive territory of the Reich, since the Czech people themselves would bear the brunt of the reprisals....

AND I had to laugh at somebody above electing their favourite Soviet general on an "awesome mustache" platform! Very funny!

Favorite Soviet General.....I don't have one!....I think they were mostly tactical butchers, bigger slaughtermen than the Waffen SS!!! Their profligacy with human life leads me to believe my "fab fav" General would, at the time, have been the one that I was being commanded by!

Mention must be made of the similarity in looks between Timoshenko and protege Zukhov. And, King of Mustchios Buddeny is the only soviet General I can ever think of that was actually smiling in the photographs....a possible reason for this is offered here....

"As First Deputy Commissar for Defence in 1940, Budenny had visited the lately annexed province of Bessarabia, where a party was given in his honour at the distilleries of Kishinev. Toward the close of the festivities a canvas screen was ripped off the largest vat, which had been filled with Red wine to a depth of one and a half metres. Inside were a number of naked girls desporting themselves in the warm red liquid. Without further ado, Budenny and his aides threw off their clothes and joined the nymphs in the pool. The bacchanalia gathered momentum until another guest, disgruntled at being unable to climb into the vat, fired a long burst at it with a tommy gun; three of the occupants were injured, and the wine ran out of the holes and onto the floor of the distillery. The orgy then moved to more comfortable quarters at the back of the distillery."
I wonder what Beatrice Patton, Mamie Eisenhower, or even Frau Rommel would have made of our Western Allied/German generals behaving in such a fashion!

Sure explains the smiles from The King of Russian Mustachas!

B5N2KATE
05-24-2008, 07:50 AM
CHEVAN....My Russian Tovarisch

Not wishing to make to much of it.....is this the same General Frost that Froze all those Russian soldiers at Suomussalmi,
Finland?

Where would you all have been but for the lesson in the Winter School of Warfare handed out to you by the expert Finns?

Russians suffer from the cold too....they are humans after all.
By the same token, we could point to film footage of Soviet prisoners in columns stretching from horizon to horizon and say our favourite German General was General TACTICS or General ORGANIZATION.

B5N2KATE
05-24-2008, 08:10 AM
Just a couple of quotes from the favourite Finnish General of all time, General BLUSTER..

"So many Russians....where will we bury them all?"
"Our Neighbours...The Targets."
"Our Soviet Friends....the Moving Zoo."


and from an anonymous Finn tank hunter, utilizing the State Liquor Board's "Mixed Drink" ("Molotov Cocktail")....

"Every day was broiled Russian for sure!"

Egorka
05-24-2008, 05:07 PM
Um Goebbels was a propagandist and had little to do with the field of actual armaments. He was probably talking out of his arse' as usual and quotes from his diary are to be taken with a hefty grain of salt...
I think you are wrong about this quote. Maybe Goebbels did not write down Hitler's words exactly as they sounded but the overal message of the Hitler's opinion of on may 9th 1941 is articulated clearly enough.

I undestand Goebbels quote in such way that he is conveying Hitler's words about the Czechs.
So "good, serviceable, and solid" is not Goebbels' words, but Hitler's. And that makes a big difference.

By the way, besides not knowing much about the armaments and being a propagandinst, Goebbles was also a Gauleiter of Berlin, which means he was rather closely involved in the city's life including the practical aspects of it like anti-air defences and such. Do not underestimate him.

Warpig
05-26-2008, 01:40 PM
Zhukov is my favourite since he suffered most casualities :D

Nickdfresh
05-26-2008, 02:44 PM
I know it's off topic, but I believe that is precisely why Reinhardt Heydrich was killed to start with. Czech and British intelligence had already surmised that the reaction to Heydrich's assassination would be all out of proportion, and would probably cost tens of thousands of Czech lives....BUT

It would RUIN Czechoslovakia as a co-operative/productive territory of the Reich, since the Czech people themselves would bear the brunt of the reprisals....
...

Agreed. Perhaps this is the biggest reason that only recently the Czech-born SAS men are finally being recognized...

I believe in the ensuing battle, they engaged and killed a sizable number of SS pursuers after they were hold up in a Prague church. They wisely fought to the death.

But remember the Heydrich was already known as "The Butcher of Prague" was he not? Seldom has a man received poetic justice though (dying slowly of an infection from bits of his car seat padding lodged in his guts)...

Chevan
05-27-2008, 01:09 AM
CHEVAN....My Russian Tovarisch
Oh what a nice surprise lads:)
The Japane wearponry so...er from Australia.
Welcome on board comride..
BTW the good Torpedo-bomber Kate was very effective during the bombing of Perl-Harbor.


Not wishing to make to much of it.....is this the same General Frost that Froze all those Russian soldiers at Suomussalmi,
Finland?

Oh so you are rusophobian.


Where would you all have been but for the lesson in the Winter School of Warfare handed out to you by the expert Finns?


Russians suffer from the cold too....they are humans after all.
[/quote]
Never tell the russian are humans, they are not a ones:)
They are just a bunch of cruel subhuman, managed but ta brutal butchers:)

Chevan
05-27-2008, 01:12 AM
Just a couple of quotes from the favourite Finnish General of all time, General BLUSTER..

"So many Russians....where will we bury them all?"
"Our Neighbours...The Targets."
"Our Soviet Friends....the Moving Zoo."

"Every day was broiled Russian for sure!"

So you are mad rusophobian....Very well.

B5N2KATE
05-27-2008, 03:17 AM
not a Russophobe....Chevan my friend!

A great admirer of RUSSIAN culture and humanistic achievement.

What concerns me the most is the Soviets. I know the common Russian was brave and resourceful, but SOVIETS take the credit for it....every time.

To my way of thinking, if RUSSIANS could rid themselves of this Sovietness, they would have the ability to intellectually show us a thing or two. But SOVIETS keep interfearing with that destiny.

World war two was a terrible way for us all to move into the future. It twisted Russian sense of fairplay, and brutalized the reputation they had established. I seek to pull down that Soviet image, merely because it's such a false image for modern Russians to follow. Socialism was a great idea, but it was not a RUSSIAN idea. And, like all converts to a cause, Russians took it on with a passion and zealotry that really did move them backwards. I want to bust the Soviet myths wherever I can find them, in the name of restoring faith in ordinary Russians as HUMAN BEINGS WORTH THEIR SALT.
We lionize Soviet generals and politicians because these are the principle memories from records that have come down to us....and thats a crying shame, because it wasn't the generals and politruk that won that fight....it was the ordinary Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian, Crimean etc...
and the names of most of them have been lost to history, mainly because so many, TOO MANY of them died for their Soviet overlords.

Bring back RUSSIAN history, without all the Sovietness of it all. The man in the street and field that the Soviet overlords professed to admire so much, and then threw them into the cauldron one after another in the name of defeating Fascism. It was as much to glorify their own Soviet cause as anything, and they wrecked far too many lives and families doing it, when their own diplomacy might have made it different in some small way, or even avoided the situation altogether.

Socialism was a great idea, but Sovietness twisted this very nobility of ideal in the very name of their own survival as a political entity. In getting rid of the Sovietness from Russians once and for all, we , the makers of the new history, must tell the truth of the matter, not look back to the Grreat Patriotic War as something that was a victory for SOVIETS....but, a victory for HUMANISM. In doing so, we must tell the truth, not whitewash the past in the name of political glorification.

It really bothers me that modern Russians see their Soviet past with Rose tinted glasses, as a past that was somehow better than a future thewy can and will make for themselves. Political Myth busting also means we must elevate the ordinary man, put him back in the limelight as the true victor of the Eastern front....the faceless RUSSIAN who died.....those brave people that moved forward to certain destruction....

GIVE THE FACELESS RUSSIANS AN IDENTITY AGAIN....AN IDENTITY THAT IS WHOLLY RUSSIAN....

AND NOT A BIT SOVIET.....NOT ONE LITTLE BIT!

B5N2KATE
05-27-2008, 03:40 AM
is it not ironic that the "Workers and Peasants" who won the fight have been largely forgotten?

While history, even Russian history, pushes the names of their Soviet masters forward as heroes.....they who sacrifced one in every five of the Workers and Peasants that they supposedly represented. Those bastards weren't representing anyone but themselves, and fully prepared were they to throw away far too many ordinary men to secure their place in those same history books...

damn Stalin.....damn Zukhov....damn rokossovsky, Voroshilov, Marenkov, Chuikov, and all the other generals who threw away the lives of so many ordinary people, all the while claiming to be "men of the people" themselves.

I want to hear about the faceless RUSSIANS that won their fight....not about the Moscow fatcats that waved their arms and pumped their fists crying "Once more unto the breach, dear comrades!"

It might have been for the Motherland, but it was for the SOVIET MOTHERLAND....ordinary Russians simply had to die, and keep dieing until it was over.

Give us the story Chevan.....but leave out the brutal bigwigs. Always remember we fought Facism too.....the Cold War was necessary to get rid of the Soviets....

and replace them with non-political RUSSIANS!

POBYEDA GOSPODIN RUSSKI!

Chevan
05-27-2008, 04:42 AM
not a Russophobe....Chevan my friend!

A great admirer of RUSSIAN culture and humanistic achievement.

What concerns me the most is the Soviets. I know the common Russian was brave and resourceful, but SOVIETS take the credit for it....every time.

To my way of thinking, if RUSSIANS could rid themselves of this Sovietness, they would have the ability to intellectually show us a thing or two. But SOVIETS keep interfearing with that destiny.

Wow this is whole other matter...
Now i recongise the friendly australian style...:)
Becouse , i have to say honestly , you are the first person here who doesn't liking as ausralian..


World war two was a terrible way for us all to move into the future. It twisted Russian sense of fairplay, and brutalized the reputation they had established. I seek to pull down that Soviet image, merely because it's such a false image for modern Russians to follow. Socialism was a great idea, but it was not a RUSSIAN idea. And, like all converts to a cause, Russians took it on with a passion and zealotry that really did move them backwards. I want to bust the Soviet myths wherever I can find them, in the name of restoring faith in ordinary Russians as HUMAN BEINGS WORTH THEIR SALT.


Well so you think that hte Socialism wasn't so bad idea in sense, right?
You just claim to be the wrong the Soviet way?


We lionize Soviet generals and politicians because these are the principle memories from records that have come down to us....and thats a crying shame, because it wasn't the generals and politruk that won that fight....it was the ordinary Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian, Crimean etc...

Absolutly agree...
But i hope you will not deny that it wasn't also the ONLY allied who ONLY fought for our common victory.


and the names of most of them have been lost to history, mainly because so many, TOO MANY of them died for their Soviet overlords.

Bring back RUSSIAN history, without all the Sovietness of it all. The man in the street and field that the Soviet overlords professed to admire so much, and then threw them into the cauldron one after another in the name of defeating Fascism. It was as much to glorify their own Soviet cause as anything, and they wrecked far too many lives and families doing it, when their own diplomacy might have made it different in some small way, or even avoided the situation altogether.

Well said.
But i hope you should agree that the best way judge the Stalin is via the "justify his bolshevick environment".
You have to undertand that Stalin probably wasn't the WORST of Bolshevicks


Socialism was a great idea, but Sovietness twisted this very nobility of ideal in the very name of their own survival as a political entity. In getting rid of the Sovietness from Russians once and for all, we , the makers of the new history, must tell the truth of the matter, not look back to the Grreat Patriotic War as something that was a victory for SOVIETS....but, a victory for HUMANISM. In doing so, we must tell the truth, not whitewash the past in the name of political glorification.

Good words agains.
Have you not wrote a own book about:)?
I want order it..
The problem is that we have been already rided out of Sovietness, my friend.In the mid 1990-yy.
But today the reality of life turned the Anti-Soviets biased propogand itno the otherwise way:)
Now we can compare the things...
And not always the Soviet life seems worsen than today..Believe me.


It really bothers me that modern Russians see their Soviet past with Rose tinted glasses, as a past that was somehow better than a future thewy can and will make for themselves. Political Myth busting also means we must elevate the ordinary man, put him back in the limelight as the true victor of the Eastern front....the faceless RUSSIAN who died.....those brave people that moved forward to certain destruction....

The problem again- yu can't pull out the peace of YOUR history ( even if it don't like you).
And honaestly speacing , not EVERYTHING in USSR was so bad,as it tupically portrayed in the Western mass media ( especially during cold war).
And you HAVE to realize - not all of our people considered the USSR as the bad as you try to inspire.
You nothing can do woth it, just have to use..
Actually i/m not a "soviets" , i think that there were a lot of wrong things in USSR, the Soviet ideoligy for instance.
However i have to say that the free hight education, total guaranted medical servise is still very importaint pluses of that life.
As i said we can compare.
And whatever the "democrats' speaks today about our past- this is just a simlisic propogandic approach , the true is much more complicated
i don't like to be a democratic fanatic who look at the everything Reds as the Bull :)
I hope you've understood.


GIVE THE FACELESS RUSSIANS AN IDENTITY AGAIN....AN IDENTITY THAT IS WHOLLY RUSSIAN....

AND NOT A BIT SOVIET.....NOT ONE LITTLE BIT!
oh MEditation..it's great thing..
OK i will try...
GIVE THE FACELESS RUSSIANS AN IDENTITY AGAIN...
The Stalin was the butcher
, the russians were the good
, the soviets were the bad..
The Lenin was a Great intellectual...
DAMN....
WTF and how i can separate the rusians from the Soviets?
May be the truly russians were who foight on the Germany side like general Vlasov?
How do you think.

Chevan
05-27-2008, 04:51 AM
is it not ironic that the "Workers and Peasants" who won the fight have been largely forgotten?

While history, even Russian history, pushes the names of their Soviet masters forward as heroes.....they who sacrifced one in every five of the Workers and Peasants that they supposedly represented. Those bastards weren't representing anyone but themselves, and fully prepared were they to throw away far too many ordinary men to secure their place in those same history books...

damn Stalin.....damn Zukhov....damn rokossovsky, Voroshilov, Marenkov, Chuikov, and all the other generals who threw away the lives of so many ordinary people, all the while claiming to be "men of the people" themselves.

Rokossovskij what for?
Are you going to piss off our polish comrides?:)
And what is that the "ordinary" peoples- the horde of idiots who voluntary agreed to subordinate to Generals-butcher?
How do you this is there a logic?


I want to hear about the faceless RUSSIANS that won their fight....not about the Moscow fatcats that waved their arms and pumped their fists crying "Once more unto the breach, dear comrades!"

You want and you can hear about facelass russians who died..
There a lot of thread about those mans.
You might chack it please.


It might have been for the Motherland, but it was for the SOVIET MOTHERLAND....ordinary Russians simply had to die, and keep dieing until it was over.

Absolutly right.
This everything for Mothland..but can you separate the Soviet mothelend from Russian one?


Give us the story Chevan.....but leave out the brutal bigwigs. Always remember we fought Facism too.....the Cold War was necessary to get rid of the Soviets....

OK, i've told a stories in other threads.


and replace them with non-political RUSSIANS!

POBYEDA GOSPODIN RUSSKI!
It's not honest, you knew russian...:):)

Chevan
05-27-2008, 04:53 AM
And BTW mr JapaneBomber, why have you colored post so brightly?
Does you check am i a daltonic?:)

WaffenSS
06-12-2008, 04:18 PM
my absolute favorite Russian Gen. is Gen.Zhukov

Uyraell
02-16-2009, 04:54 AM
Have to say, by what I have read, while various others are worthy, I favour Zhukov.
The man was greatly talented, and I respect his achievements.

Regards, Uyraell.

Schuultz
02-16-2009, 10:59 AM
While I heard many favorable things about Zukhov, I wonder how many times the Russians managed to tactically defeat the enemy.

I might risk to sound ignorant, but my understanding was that in most battles, the Russians overwhelmed the Germans with numerical superiority in manpower, machines and munitions.
How much truth is to that?

If there is any to it, wouldn't that pretty much mean that they had poor leadership that pretty much just ordered the soldiers to run into a meat grinder until they wore out the troops?

I'm sure there were cases of outflanking, outmaneuvering, etc. But how often did tactical superiority lead to a victory compared to simple numerical superiority?

Whenever I look at the numbers of battles, with most battles I see the Soviets suffering horrendous losses, often a good chunk more than the Axis, which I would rather blame on the Generals than the troops, as the troops themselves had pretty good equipment and tanks...

Uyraell
02-17-2009, 01:57 AM
While I heard many favorable things about Zukhov, I wonder how many times the Russians managed to tactically defeat the enemy.

I might risk to sound ignorant, but my understanding was that in most battles, the Russians overwhelmed the Germans with numerical superiority in manpower, machines and munitions.
How much truth is to that?

If there is any to it, wouldn't that pretty much mean that they had poor leadership that pretty much just ordered the soldiers to run into a meat grinder until they wore out the troops?

I'm sure there were cases of outflanking, outmaneuvering, etc. But how often did tactical superiority lead to a victory compared to simple numerical superiority?

Whenever I look at the numbers of battles, with most battles I see the Soviets suffering horrendous losses, often a good chunk more than the Axis, which I would rather blame on the Generals than the troops, as the troops themselves had pretty good equipment and tanks...

You make fair points my friend.
As a survivor of the 1937 Purges, I'd have to suggest Zhukov had at least a reasonable grasp of the subject of tactics, if not of grand strategy.
Yes, a lot of Soviet tactics at the time, was to overwhelm with numbers.
However, my understanding is that Zhukov had a better grasp of tactics (as the West understood the term) than most of his contemporaries.
From My reading, a near rival might be Rossokovskiy, though I do have questions there.
In general, while the Russian soldiery was reasonably capable and certainly courageous, I do feel their generals did not always direct them well.
How much of that is due to political considerations, as opposed to any putative lack of skills is a point I have long pondered.

Regards, Uyraell.