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Panzerknacker
04-19-2007, 08:07 PM
I open this topic to discuss about the Russkaya Osvoboditel'naya Armiya, the russian soldiers whom fought to the german side.

http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/images/r/ru^roa.gif



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/SoldierRussianLiberationArm.jpg

Chevan
04-20-2007, 02:57 AM
MAte i think you forgot to add the line in your poll.
-They were the people who naivly thought the Hitler let them to create the "independent" Russia ( i.e. the pitful rest of Russia in case of Germans victory).
Personaly i think they were a mixture of traitors, nazy simpatized peoples, peoples who had a tendency toward the violence and eventualy a moral-weak peoples who simply tryed to survive in the unhuman condition of German concentration camp.
His commander of general Vlasov was at the same time both tragic and braive men. But he being the traitor had a bed final.

Panzerknacker
04-20-2007, 08:07 AM
MAte i think you forgot to add the line in your poll.
-They were the people who naivly thought the Hitler let them to create the "independent" Russia ( i.e. the pitful rest of Russia in case of Germans victory).

I think the ukranians were the most atracted by that idea.


ROA video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7USp4MYJBjw

Panzerknacker
04-20-2007, 09:14 AM
A little more , extract of "Foreign Volunteers in the Whermacht" by Carlos C. Jurado.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3604/62368917bh8.jpg



http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9130/84020139kl8.jpg



http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2247/85339283pr3.jpg


http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1918/dibujofn9.jpg

Vorontsov
04-21-2007, 01:34 AM
The large part of the Ukraine warred against the fascism, for the Germans there were only benderovtsy from the western Ukraine, yes there were traitors from other parts, but just as everywhere! So I lead to what, only West of the Ukraine was for the Nazis and that, not entire, recall partisans under the management Of kovpaka and Medvedev, Kovpak themselves there was Ukrainian, but he fought with the aggressors. The people from the western Ukraine entered into its force. So that only banderovtsy m upa fought on the side of fascists, entire remaining part was against them, and now the large part of the population this supports!

Vorontsov
04-21-2007, 08:57 AM
Sorry, Panzerknacker? You russian?

Egorka
04-21-2007, 01:18 PM
Sorry, Panzerknacker? You russian?

Common! Do no insult him! ;)

Polar
04-21-2007, 01:57 PM
MAte i think you forgot to add the line in your poll.
-They were the people who naivly thought the Hitler let them to create the "independent" Russia ( i.e. the pitful rest of Russia in case of Germans victory).
Personaly i think they were a mixture of traitors, nazy simpatized peoples, peoples who had a tendency toward the violence and eventualy a moral-weak peoples who simply tryed to survive in the unhuman condition of German concentration camp.
His commander of general Vlasov was at the same time both tragic and braive men. But he being the traitor had a bed final.
Chevan I don't I agree with you often, but in this case you have right. I think that only Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian could belive that they fight for independend, but rest if belive it was naivly.

Panzerknacker
04-22-2007, 08:12 PM
Sorry, Panzerknacker? You russian?



I am not, I am Argentine.

Cossacks, the most distintive of all USSR units in german service.

http://www.roa.ru/Roa%20foto/gross/Kos21.jpg



Bodyguards of the german Commander Von Panwitz, note the long sabres.

http://www.roa.ru/Roa%20foto/gross/Kos6.jpg

Chevan
04-23-2007, 01:14 AM
Chevan I don't I agree with you often, but in this case you have right. I think that only Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian could belive that they fight for independend, but rest if belive it was naivly.
Polar i've apreciated it.
But i think the Baltick peoples were also a bit naive to colloborate with Nazy.
Firstly only Latvians were recognized as Aryans.
Sec did you hear about germans plans to replace the baltic population by the germans settlers.
So i will not sure for the succesfull fate of baltic peoples if the Germany had win the war.

Chevan
04-23-2007, 01:28 AM
I think the ukranians were the most atracted by that idea.

The large part of the Ukraine warred against the fascism, for the Germans there were only benderovtsy from the western Ukraine, yes there were traitors from other parts, but just as everywhere! So I lead to what, only West of the Ukraine was for the Nazis and that, not entire, recall partisans under the management Of kovpaka and Medvedev, Kovpak themselves there was Ukrainian, but he fought with the aggressors. The people from the western Ukraine entered into its force. So that only banderovtsy m upa fought on the side of fascists, entire remaining part was against them, and now the large part of the population this supports!

Now do you see Amigo the difference between the Ukrainians (who were a low race like and russians and were a mostly fiendly fro russians ) and your limited knowledges about them.
Only a small part of Western Ukraine supported the Nazy. And BTW they participated in the atrosoties toward the civil population ( polish and ukrainians).

Polar
04-23-2007, 02:36 AM
Polar i've apreciated it.
But i think the Baltick peoples were also a bit naive to colloborate with Nazy.
Firstly only Latvians were recognized as Aryans.
Sec did you hear about germans plans to replace the baltic population by the germans settlers.
So i will not sure for the succesfull fate of baltic peoples if the Germany had win the war.
Interesting
I alweys think that Latvians were recognized by Nazi as germanic tribe and word " Aryans" was use as describe all nationas without jews and roms
Can you tell me about more?

Chevan
04-23-2007, 03:41 AM
Interesting
I alweys think that Latvians were recognized by Nazi as germanic tribe and word " Aryans" was use as describe all nationas without jews and roms
Can you tell me about more?
The Nazy race hierarchy contained not only arians , jews and roms.
Hitles "scientists" had a whole race theory according that all white-nations peoples was devided into a groups of "arian cleanliness". For instance the italians and romanians was not equal at the Germans but they were much more better then the slavs.
The other nation includin asians ( and even the Germans allis Japanese) were somewhere betwen the monkey and african aborigen.

Panzerknacker
04-24-2007, 09:53 AM
Now do you see Amigo the difference between the Ukrainians (who were a low race like and russians and were a mostly fiendly fro russians ) and your limited knowledges about them.
Only a small part of Western Ukraine supported the Nazy. And BTW they participated in the atrosoties toward the civil population ( polish and ukrainians).



All right thanks, but still there was a lot of ukranians serving in the Whermacht, I have no the figure, I try to post later.



And on the theme, if already we did affect pridateley, then to how much me it is known, Argentineans were very in good relations with the Nazis, not then whether? I'm not right?


What is the relationship of that with this topic ?, are you calling me nazi ?


R.O.A, the begin, Part I:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2145/roa1xk6.jpg


http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5943/roa2ql4.jpg


http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3609/roa3hr0.jpg




http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1848/roa4yg6.jpg




To be continued....

Panzerknacker
04-25-2007, 07:21 PM
R.O.A, the begin, Part II:


http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4963/roa5qa0.jpg



http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3243/roa6xa8.jpg


http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9657/roa7ma3.jpg



http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6058/roa8fu9.jpg

Panzerknacker
04-26-2007, 08:10 PM
The R.O.A finally fights:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5241/roaac1nf3.jpg


http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3571/roaac2gh1.jpg

Source: The foreing legions on the Whermacht, Vol IV. David Littlejohn.

Panzerknacker
04-27-2007, 09:53 AM
Some heavy equipmente deployed by the Russkaia Osvoboditelnaia Armiia.

Captured Tank T-34/76 M1941.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6361/t34color122qm.jpg




Fighter-bomber Messerchmitt BF-109G-10, from an russian jasta. (jagd staffeln)


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2149/roayj9.jpg

Kato
05-09-2007, 09:55 AM
"The large part of the Ukraine warred against the fascism, for the Germans there were only benderovtsy from the western Ukraine, yes there were traitors from other parts, but just as everywhere!"

Vorontsov just repeats the cliches of the slanderous Soviet propaganda about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (banderovtsy). If one says such things he will evidently believe the other cliches of the Soviet propaganda: the USSR in the 1930, and 50s was the most prosperous and happy state in the world. Stalin was the greatest humanist on earth. All the millions of citizerns killed by communists in the USSR never existed or deserved being killed etc. The truth is that all the relations between the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - OUN (the political wing of UPA) and Germans was completetly torn in July 1941 after Germans had refused to tolerate the declaration of idependence proclaimed in by the Organization in Lviv. Germans immediately began repressions against Ukrainian nationalists and their supporters across Ukraine. Thousand of Ukrainians were arrested and send to concentrations camps. The leader of the OUN Stepan Bandera and among these people. Two Bandera's brothers died from tortures in a German prison. Since the July 1941 all the armed groups of the OUN ( later transformed into the UPA ) waged war against German occupants. German high-rankers viewd OUN-UPA as a main threat to their dominantion in Ukraine.
In June 1943 German SS and police forces under the command of General von dem Bach-Zalewski, seen as an expert in fighting against guerrillas, attempted to destroy UPA-North in Volyn during Operation "BB" (Bandenbekampfung). He was chosen specifically by Himmler to destroy UPA in this operation. [3] During Operation "BB" Bach-Zalewski had under his command 10 battalions of motorized SS troops, 10,000 German and Polish police, 2 regiments of the Hungarian army, and three battalions of Cossacks organized from among Soviet POWs.[4] By August, this operation proved to be a military failure. During this struggle, on August 19-20 UPA captured the military center of Kamin Koshyrsky, defeating several German battalions and capturing large quantities of arms and ammunition.[4] General Bach-Zaleski was relieved of his command and replaced by General Prutzmann. Ultimately the German forces failed to destroy UPA or to establish control over the Volyn countryside.
OUN-UPA operated mainly in Western Ukraine because since 1921 to 1943 Western Ukraine was part of Poland and in spite of Polish opressions and persecutions aimed against Ukrianians it was possible to create a strong armed national resistance under the guidence of OUN. It was an impossible thing to do in the Soviet-dominated Ukraine where the whole population was terrorised by Stalin's security forces NKVD and lived through the artificially created hunger ( holodomor ) that took the lives of about 10 milions of ethnic Ukrainians. Two years of the soviet occupation (1939 -1941) were not enough for them to pacify The West of Ukraine as they did it with the rest of Ukraine. When Greman invaded the Soviet Union OUN attempted to spread their actvities across Ukraine but these attempts were desperately opposed by both Germans and Soviet communists who aspiere to create a powerful partisan movement on their own and not let Ukrainian nationalists fill this niche. Add to that the campaign of terror against Ukrainian civillians in Western Ukraine launched by Poles from AK and other Polish organisation who openly declared their plans to restore Poland within the borders of XVII century. That's why OUN-UPA had to concentrate on defending their bases in the west of Ukraine. They managed to defeat and oust Poles from Ukraine.
If there hadn't been OUN-UPA Polish armed groups would have just massacred Ukrainians in Western Ukraine as they were indulged to do so by German authorities and instigated by Soviet communists.

For more detailed information go at least to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

Unlike the majority of other resistance movements in Europe who fought only against Germans OUN-UPA waged war against German, Poles and Soviet occupants without any foreign support. It is a unique case in the history of WW2 and post-war Europe. Fighters of OUN-UPA defended freedom and human dignity without thinking about the price they would have to pay.

Panzerknacker
05-09-2007, 06:23 PM
That is one of the best articulated first post I ever seen.

welcome to our forum Kato.

Kovalski
05-10-2007, 03:11 AM
"Add to that the campaign of terror against Ukrainian civillians in Western Ukraine launched by Poles from AK and other Polish organisation who openly declared their plans to restore Poland within the borders of XVII century. That's why OUN-UPA had to concentrate on defending their bases in the west of Ukraine.

Well mate,
we need to discuss these fact very, very carefully.

The open polish-ukrainian conflict which erupted during ww2 had two faces: Polish and Ukrainian.
I would like to avoid the answer for question: who started it, who commited first atrocities, because its pointless in my opinion. It doesn't matter right now.
Some may say that Poles started to murder Ukrainians, and Ukrainians had to answer that, other will say that it was started inversly: Ukrainians murdered Poles first and that's why Poles started to murder Ukrainians in revenge.
As I said: It doesn't matter right now.

I would suggest that it would be much, much better to present a full image of that tragic events, when speaking about polish atrocities in Western Ukraine. Just don't forget about ukrainian terror against Polish civilians.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Vassili Chukolov
05-10-2007, 08:30 PM
I was wondering, did the ROA soldiers have a choice? I mean either be in a POW Camp, and risk being executed by the Russian if they were liberated, or whatever else they faced from the Germans.

Hagiescu
06-09-2007, 12:09 PM
They didn't have any choices , if the Russian re-got theme ,they who'd have been executer , and 2 yes they wanted there small country's liberated under the communists

Panzerknacker
06-09-2007, 04:55 PM
Hard to tell, I think that the issue lays in the real motifs behind an R.O.A enlisted man, if they believe really the Stalin was a enemy of the russian people I admire his devotion but if was jut to eat a little better... no very brave choice.

Panzerknacker
08-29-2007, 10:20 PM
General Blasov s reviewing the R.O.A troops, note the T-34s used and the large proportion of panzerfaust.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mNhCpoDvfro

Panzerknacker
10-12-2007, 10:22 PM
And yet another video of the ROA.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7USp4MYJBjw

RTY1941
09-16-2010, 06:45 AM
Well I know stalin was not a good guy , but I don't think every thing about communist is bad at all

Panzerknacker
09-17-2010, 09:34 PM
Well I know stalin was not a good guy , but I don't think every thing about communist is bad at all

Well, the topic is more about the history and combat value of this unit, the politics is a hairy businees, specially knowing who was in the other side, and that one was Hitler.

kowalskil
11-28-2010, 04:18 PM
MAte i think you forgot to add the line in your poll.
-They were the people who naivly thought the Hitler let them to create the "independent" Russia ( i.e. the pitful rest of Russia in case of Germans victory).
Personaly i think they were a mixture of traitors, nazy simpatized peoples, peoples who had a tendency toward the violence and eventualy a moral-weak peoples who simply tryed to survive in the unhuman condition of German concentration camp.
His commander of general Vlasov was at the same time both tragic and braive men. But he being the traitor had a bed final.

Vlasov, the commander of that army, probably believed that he will outsmart Germans, after defeating Bolshevism. I did not know that he was a leading player in the deffence of Moskow (November 1941).

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)

Uyraell
12-01-2010, 10:05 PM
Having read Vlasov's biographical references as detailed in a 1960's book about the ROA, I'm confident Vlasov himself intended a Ukraine independent of both the USSR and Germany.

I'm with Kovalski regarding the "who started it" aspect between the Poles and Ukrainians.
"Who started it" is completely irrelevant and contributes only emotional upheaval where historical analysis of the known data is the only way some sense, some historic truths may be successfully concluded about the events of that era.
Emotionalism serves no useful purpose whatsoever in this context, and serves only to inflame nationalist thoughts, which in themselves only cloud an already heavily clouded era.

What specifically interests me, is the general thinking among the ordinary populations, both of Poland and the western Ukraine. In much the same way as I am interested in the thinking of the general populace of Germany in that same era.

It is hard for me to view Vlasov as a traitor per se. I do understand how a Russian would see Vlasov as a traitor, in much the same way as I do understand a dedicated Nazi would view Vlasov as a useful figurehead. Which is, co-incidentally, much as Winston Churchill viewed Charles De Gaulle, even though Winston at one point contemplated having De Gaulle assassinated.

My own view is that Vlasov was at heart an idealist, who both perceived and seized the one opportunity history was going to grant him, to achieve something for his nation which would not recur. Namely, an independent nation, respected by its' neighbours, and eventually contributing to humanity as a whole.
In that, Vlasov was near-enough a century ahead of his own time.
Was all that worth dieing for? I'm certain he felt so. And in the end, that is the only thing the man has to answer himself for.

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Smoking Frog
01-21-2011, 03:16 PM
I think that Vlassov's men were a lot better than the Kaminski brigade. Their conduct in Warsaw shocked even the SS commanders sent to crush the uprising, and they were not known for being squeamish.
I think that a lot of Russian people suffered under Stalin and wanted rid of him; this does not necessarily make them traitors. I think that if you were a person of deep religious conviction for instance, you would find the Soviet regime very objectionable. Fighting against it could actually be a matter of faith for some?
I think that the ROA were a pretty useful outfit for the Germans; otherwise they would have never been given an ME262 jet fighter. Also, they could never surrender so they will fight very hard.
I think that if ROA are traitors then the small number of Germans who fought for the Allies would be traitors too, but we do not see them that way. Is it not more important to be true to your own conscience than to a flag you do not believe in?
I think that for those men from nations occupied by the USSR the choice to take their chance with the Germans was understandable. Even though the Nazis committed war crimes, they had seen mass killings by the Soviets too...it's like being caught between the devil and the deep blue sea!
You can fight with honour even on the 'bad' side, and even against your country of birth.

Uyraell
01-26-2011, 11:28 PM
I dare say: if Lord Halifax had come to power, and the BLF/BUF had had control of the UK, I'd have gone off to Canada or the USA to fight against them and Hitler and the Nazis.
At the same time/in the same breath: in Spain in 1936 I'd have been fighting alongside the Fascists against the Communists.

Why the change? All I can say is that Communism then seemed to be the greater evil.

A man makes his choices bereft of all guidance but that which his innermost conscience and Soul see fit to provide. As such: He lives with those choices, or dies thereafter.

Compassionate and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Chevan
03-30-2011, 12:26 AM
They didn't have any choices , if the Russian re-got theme ,they who'd have been executer , and 2 yes they wanted there small country's liberated under the communists
The Nazis want them to think so.They frighten the POWs by "Siberia and Sltalin" - they way that Goebbels later used to "rise the moral" the defeating German troops in the east.They actualy had a choice. Endeed from up to5 millinon of soviet pows, captued by Germans within a war. just less then 500 000 ( i.e 10%) comes to colloboration).After the liberation of the Red Army just tiny part of POWs were repressed or judged ( and executed). Actualy from 2 mln POWs liberated by Red Army ALIVE- 70% of them were send back to Army's service.

Nickdfresh
03-30-2011, 01:57 AM
Good to see you posting again Chevan, hope all is well....

Chevan
03-30-2011, 02:55 AM
Good to see you posting again Chevan, hope all is well....
Thanks Nick. I can't live without this forum so long . Everything is OK. I hope you too..
PS. wow 5++ thousands of your posts, mate. You didn't waste the time here..

Rising Sun*
03-30-2011, 07:12 AM
Good to see you posting again Chevan, hope all is well....

Me too.

I assume you've spent the winter trying to keep the sump oil in the Lada from freezing, which would be a full time job which would stop you posting here. ;) :D

Chevan
04-01-2011, 04:25 AM
I assume you've spent the winter trying to keep the sump oil in the Lada from freezing, which would be a full time job which would stop you posting here. ;) :D
Nicht, i was almost mobilized in Army because the Jepane was ready to start the new war for Kuril Islands couple of months ago. .I had to modify my Lada to carry the small aa-defence launch system on its roof.;) just in case if Japanese want to bomb my mother-russia:)/But God has punished them first by that terrible earthquake.
I glad to see you too mate, hope you've saved all the functionalities and humor after Fucushima's fallout has reach the Australia...:D

Rising Sun*
04-01-2011, 08:43 AM
Nicht, i was almost mobilized in Army because the Jepane was ready to start the new war for Kuril Islands couple of months ago. .I had to modify my Lada to carry the small aa-defence launch system on its roof.;)

This would be Stage 1 of the modification?

http://englishrussia.com/images/lada_tank.jpg



Or would this be the result of too much AA weight on the roof?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2461/3762859958_d332d8b98b.jpg



I glad to see you too mate, hope you've saved all the functionalities and humor after Fucushima's fallout has reach the Australia...:D

You'll be glowing in the dark from Fukishima (which the news reports always pronounce "Fookishima" rather than the usual, and eminently appropriate, way of pronouncing 'U' as 'uh') long before it has any effect down here.

I have to say that I have the greatest respect for the bravery of the technicians, firefighters and others going into the plant to try to control it.

But it's looking more and more like it's going to end up like Chernobyl, encased in concrete.

Chevan
04-04-2011, 12:27 PM
This would be Stage 1 of the modification?


Nein, it's the ww2 era soviet copy of germnan half-track Sd.kfz.251 on chassis of captured Fiat;)


Or would this be the result of too much AA weight on the roof?

more lileky this is result of too drunk driver;)


You'll be glowing in the dark from Fukishima (which the news reports always pronounce "Fookishima" rather than the usual, and eminently appropriate, way of pronouncing 'U' as 'uh') long before it has any effect down here.

but don't live even close to Pacific ocean ;)Hope you too...


I have to say that I have the greatest respect for the bravery of the technicians, firefighters and others going into the plant to try to control it.

Without doubts- they make all possible.I heard they has formed special Kamikadzes unit of 50 mans who was ready to die preventing the fallout out. I will pray for them...


But it's looking more and more like it's going to end up like Chernobyl, encased in concrete.
It almost reach the Chernobyl doze of radiactive fallot.
Here is the inteesting anaisys
http://vinceseconomicblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/fukushima-radiation-release-rivals-chernobyl/


The radiation released by the stricken Fukushima nuclear plant already rivals and in one sense exceeds the Chernobyl catastrophe according to Austria’s Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics, even as media spin downplays the severity of the crisis despite the fact that the problems at the plant show no signs of abating

So mate, take your *** and fly to me in Russia. Untill not too late;)