Luftwaffe Heavy bombers & transports.

[Panzerknacker]

Dornier Do-19 Uralbomber:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9861/do19013fh.jpg



The Luftwaffe's most serious shorcoming was the lack of an efficient heavy-bomber fleet. The Dornier Do.19 was an intriguing possibility that, due to several causes, never panned out.
Generalleutnant Walther Weaver, the Luftwaffe's first Chief of Staff was the most persistent advocate of a German long-range strategic bomber fleet, like the ones being developed in Britain and the USA.
Largely because of Weaver, the RLM Technisch Amt issued a specification for a four-engine heavy bomber.

Both Dornier and Junkers were competitors for the contract, and each received an order for three prototypes in late 1935. The Dornier design was given the project number of Do.19, while the Junkers prototype became the Ju-89.

Do-19V1

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7232/do19069pb.jpg

The Dornier Do.19 was a mid-wing cantilever design, and was mostly metal in construction. It had a rectangular-section fuselage and a tail unit with braced twin fins and rudders. These were mounted on the upper surface of the tail plane. It also had retractable landing gear, including the tailwheel.

The powerplant was four BMW 332H-2 radial engines, that were mounted in nacelles at the leading edges of the wings.

It had a crew of nine, which would have consisted of a pilot, co-pilot, navigator, bombardier, radio operator and five gunners.
The V1 prototype flew on the 28th of October, 1936. When Generalleutnant Weaver died in an airplane crash, the heavy bomber program lost it's momentum, and was not to recover. When the Luftwaffe was given it's heavy blow over the skies of England, the error of not having heavy bombers became apparent. But by then it was too late in the day to develop the bombers required.

Albert Kesselring, Weaver's successor, believed that what Germany required was more fighters and tactical bombers. Therefore the V2 and V3 prototypes were scrapped. The original V1 became a transport in 1938.
The Dornier Do.19 was only built in prototype form , yet it was a promising design that could have yielded not only a useful long-range bomber, but the desperately needed experience in a field where the Luftwaffe failed to shine.

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/7871/do19040dg.jpg



Technical Data
Origin: Dornier Flugzeugbau
Type: Long-range Strategic bomber
Powerplant: Four 533-kW (715hp) Bramo 332H-2 radial piston engines
Performance: Maximum speed at sea level 315km/h (196mph) 365 km/h at 3500 meters. Service ceiling 5600m (18,370ft); range 1600km (994 miles)
Weights: Empty 11850kg (25,125lb); maximum take-off weight 18500kg (40,786lb)

Dimensions: Span 35.00m (114ft 10in); length 25.45m (83ft 6in); leight 5.77m (18ft 11in); wing area 162.00m squared (1,743.81 sq ft)
Armament: Two 7.92mm (0.31in) MG 15 machine guns, one each in nose and tail positions; and two 20mm cannon (one each in two-man operated ventral and dorsal turrets.) Also, up to 1600kg (3,527lb) of bombs in internal bays



http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/1425/lrg15841vz.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Junkers Ju-89:


The need for a Langstrecken-Grossbomber, heavy strategic bomber was controversly discussed within Luftwaffe for years. In November 1933 the RLM started discussions with Junkers and Dornier about the requirements of such aircraft. Due to this discussions Dornier developed the Dornier Do 19, while Junkers started the development of the Junkers Ju89. The RLM request asked for two prototypes and a prototype series of nine aircraft.

V1
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6206/ju896gn.jpg

On Apri, 11th 1937 the Ju89 prototype D-AFIT (V1, c/n 4911) was first flown by Hesselbach. Short time after the first flight, on April 29th 1937 the further developement of both strategic bombers was cancelled by the RLM. The reason for this step was the high fuel consumption of heavy bombers, as well as the fact, that a large number of bomber aircraft could only be manufactured if these bombers were medium seized bombers, like the Ju88.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4564/ju89a11uq.jpg

The second Ju89 prototype D-ALAT was finished in July 1937, but the third prototype V3 was stopped after the program was cancelled. Both prototypes were used for extensive flight tests to get experiences about the stability and flight controls of large aircraft.

On June 4th 1938 it achieved a new Payload/Altitude World Record with the second prototype D-ALAT with 5000 kg payload at an altitude of 9312 m. ( 4000 meters more than a Short stirling with the same payload) On June, 8th 1938 he reached with the same aircraft an altitude of 7242 m with 10000 kg. In late 1938 both aircraft were transfered to Luftwaffe, where they were used as heavy transport aircraft until summer 1939, when they were probably scrapped.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9291/ju8915lq.jpg


Some sources also mention, that both aircraft were still used during 1940 in Norway. Following the development stop of the strategic bomber, the Ju89 design was used for a Lufthansa request for a large passenger aircraft.

[Digger]

The Ju 89 was the best performing of the two Ural bomber prototypes and after the cancellation of the project on 29th April 1937 the V1 and V2 prototypes continued to carry out flying trials and briefly served with the transport unit KGrzbV 105 during the Norway invasion.

The V3 prototype was used in the development of the Ju-90 transport.

Contrary to popular belief it was not Albert Kesselring who killed off the Ural bomber, rather it was Herman Goering upon the advice of Kesselring, Udet and Milch. Kesselring was a vocal supporter of twin engine bombers and backed up Udet who preferred dive bombers. This was why disastourous decision was made to convert the Ju 88 into a dive bomber.

Milch on the other hand wanted the project cancelled simply because at that stage the German aero industry was incapable and would remain so, of building a large fleet of heavy bombers.

Thus Goering shelved the project and later said, "The Fuhrer will never ask me how big our bombers are, but how many we have."

In late 1943 Goering would bemoan the lack of a heavy bomber fleet and curse those who told him the medium bomber was superior to the heavy bomber."Well those inferior heavy bombers of the other side are doing a wonderful job of wrecking Germany from end to end," was his acid tongued response.

Of course the German heavy bomber projects were not dead. After pleas from the Chief Of the Branch 1 of Luftwaffe Operations Staff Major Paul Deichmann to Goering an amazing about face occurred in late 1937 when specifications were issued to develop an aircraft to deliver a 5 ton bomb load to New York.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

The Ju-88 wasnt bad divebombing, the problem come when some idiot want that a plane big and heavy as He-177 should have the divebombing abilities....crazy.

And yes the lack of a devoted 4 engined aircraft put an incredible strain in several 2 engines designs like the "B" bombers.


Focke Wulf FW 191:

http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/fw191-13.jpg


In July 1939 the RLM issued a specification for a new medium bomber. It was to have a maximum speed of 600 km/h (373 mph) and be able to carry a bomb load of 4000 kg (8820 lbs) to any part of Britain from bases in France or Norway. Furthermore, the new bomber was to have a pressurized crew compartment, remote control armament and was to utilize two of the new 2500 horsepower class of engines then being developed (Jumo 222 or Daimler Benz DB 604). This was the "Bomber B" program, which Arado, Dornier, Focke-Wulf and Junkers participated in. The Arado Ar E.340 was eliminated, the Dornier Do 317 was put on a low-priority development contract; and the Junkers Ju 288 and Focke-Wulf Fw 191 were chosen for full development.

http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/fw191-9.jpg

Dipl. Ing E. Kösel, who also worked on the Fw 189 reconnaissance plane, led the design team for the Fw 191. Overall, the Fw 191 was a clean, all metal aircraft that featured a shoulder mounted wing. Two 24 cylinder Jumo 222 engines (which showed more promise than the DB 604 engines) were mounted in nacelles on the wings. An interesting feature was the inclusion of the Multhopp-Klappe, an ingenious form of combined landing flap and dive brake, which was developed by Hans Multhopp. The entire fuel supply was carried in five tanks located above the internal bomb bay, and in two tanks in the wing between the engine nacelles and fuselage.

The tail section was of a twin fins and rudders design, with the tailplane having a small amount of dihedral. The main landing gear retracted to the rear and rotated 90 degrees to lie flat in each engine nacelle. Also, the tailwheel retracted forwards into the fuselage. A crew of four sat in the pressurized cockpit, and a large Plexiglas dome was provided for the navigator; also the radio operator could use this dome to aim the remote controlled rear guns.

http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/191bomba.jpg

Armament was to consist of a remote controlled chin turret (two MG 81 7.9mm machine guns), a similar turret in the rear of each engine nacelle, an upper and lower turret featuring a single MG 151/20 20mm cannon and two MG 131 13mm machine guns.


Problems arose almost immediately when the Jumo 222 engines were not ready in time for the first flight tests, so a pair of 1600 horsepower BMW 801MA radial engines were fitted. This made the FW 191 V1 seriously underpowered. Another problem arose with the RLM's insistence that all systems that would normally be hydraulic or mechanically activated should be operated by electric motors.

The installation of so many electric motors and wiring led to the nickname for the Fw 191 of "Das fliegende Kraftwerk" (the flying powerstation)! This also had the detrimental effect of adding even more weight to the overburdened airframe, plus there was also the danger of a single enemy bullet putting every system out of action if the generator was hit.
Dipl. Ing Melhorn took the Fw 191 V1 on its maiden flight early in 1942, with immediate problems arising from the lower rated engines not providing enough power, as was anticipated. One surprising problem that was encountered were the Multhopp-Klappe, which presented severe flutter problems when extended, and pointed to the need for a redesign. At this point, only dummy gun installations were fitted and no bomb load was carried. After completing ten test flights, the Fw 191 V1 was joined by the similar V2 , but only a total of ten hours of test flight time was logged.

At this point, the RLM allowed the redesign and removal of the electric motors (to be replaced by the standard hydraulics), so the Fw 191 V3, V4 and V5 were abandoned. The Fw 191 V6 was then modified to the new design, and also a pair of specially prepared Jumo 222 engines were fitted that developed 2200 horsepower for takeoff. The first flight of the new Fw 191 took place in December 1942 with Flugkapitän Hans Sander at the controls. Although the V6 flew better, the Jumo 222 were still not producing their design power, and the whole Jumo 222 development prospect was looking bad due to the shortage of special metals for it. The Fw 191 V6 was to have been the prototype for the Fw 191A series



Since the Jumo 222 engines were having a lot of teething problems, and the Daimler Benz DB 604 had already been abandoned, a new proposal was put forth for the Fw 191B series.

The V7 through V12 machines were abandoned in favor of using the Fw 191 V13 to install a pair of Daimler Benz DB 606 or 610 engines, which were basically coupled pairs of either DB 601 or 605 12 cylinder engines. Their lower power-to-weight ratio, however, meant that the armament and payload would have to be reduced. It had already been decided to delete the engine nacelle gun turrets, and to make the rest manually operated. Five more prototypes were planned with the new engine arrangement, V14 through V18, but none were ever built.

One final attempt was made to save the Fw 191 program, this time the Fw 191C was proposed as a four engined aircraft, using either the 1340 horsepower Jumo 211F, the 1300 horsepower DB 601E, the 1475 horsepower DB 605A or the 1475 horsepower DB 628 engines. Also, the cabin would be unpressurized and the guns manually operated; a rear step in the bottom of the deepened fuselage being provided for the gunner.

Unfortunately, at this time, the whole "Bomber B" program had been canceled, due mainly to no engines of the 2500 horsepower class being available, which was one of the primary requirements in the "Bomber B" program. Although the Fw 191 will be remembered as a failure, the air frame and overall design eventually proved themselves to be sound, only the underpowered engines and insistence on electric motors to operate all the systems eventually dooming the aircraft. All in all, there were only three Fw 191s ever built (V1, V2 and V6), and no examples of the Fw 191B or C ever advanced past the design stage.



Type: Advanced Medium Bomber
Origin: Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH.
Models: V1 to V6, A, B, & C
First Flight: Early 1942
Service Delivery: Not put into production
Final Delivery: N/A Engine: See comments
Horsepower: N/A
Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
Dimensions:
Wing span: 26.00m (85 ft. 3.5 in.)
Length: 19.63m (64 ft. 4.75 in.)
Height: 5.60m (18 ft. 4.5in.)


Weights: (B Model)
Empty: 16,300kg (35,940 lbs.)
Maximum: 25,600kg (56,445 lbs.) Armament:
Planned Armament:
Dorsal and ventral barbettes, each with a 20mm MG 151 cannon flanked by two 7.92mm MG 81, Two twin MG 81 barbettes in the tail of the engine nacelles, and a chin barbette with another pair of MG 81.
Bomb Load:
4000 kg
(Two torpedoes could also be carried internally)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Fw_191A_on_Ground_hr_ExCC.jpg/800px-Fw_191A_on_Ground_hr_ExCC.jpg


www.luft46.com (http://www.luft46.com)

www.warbirdsresoursegroup.com (http://www.warbirdsresoursegroup.com)

[Chevan]

Milch on the other hand wanted the project cancelled simply because at that stage the German aero industry was incapable and would remain so, of building a large fleet of heavy bombers.
.

I think mate this is the real reason why the Germnany closed its program of heavy bombers. The resources of whole Germany did not let to build this kind of airkraft mass.
I know for sure the analogical soviet program was refusing on simular reasons. The materials which were demanded for the building of one soviet Pe-8 was equivalent for the bilding of 30(!!!) fighetrs like Mig-3 and 15 (!!!) IL-2.
The simple arihmethic gives you conclusion the Germay could not biulded the a lot of J-89 without seriouse damage for the other aviation.
The one hand to building the armads of super-experensive B-29 by the states which controlled the 60-70% of world resources , but the another hand - to build it in Germany which had a strong shortage of resources. ( and especially allumunium)

I have to conclude the Germans had a right desicion to refuse the own strategic bombers project.

Cheers.

[Panzerknacker]

I dont know if was right, but in 1937 there was no many options, the engine industries were particulary weak in those times.

[Digger]

The obligations of the Treaty of Versailles impacted directly on the German aero industry. While clandestine design work continued after the war, there was hardly enough funding to go around.

Engine design suffered enormously as a consequence and every major engine development up to 1945 suffered a tortuous development path littered with problems. This is why certain aircraft were delayed in development and deployment. This was particuarly true of the Me-262. The Jumo 004 engine was still under development and experiencing major teething problems when the Me 262 was introduced to service.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

I agree but they still managed to get the first operative jet fighters, and the first operative recce-bomber A/C.

[Panzerknacker]

Focke Wulf Fw 200 Condor:


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/683/dibujooo3.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

More info of this multipurpose bomber, recce, transport and maritime attack aircraft:


http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8210/fw1kf9.jpg



http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/548/fw2hn3.jpg




http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8600/fw3vs3.jpg







http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1/fw4df8.jpg



.....

[Panzerknacker]

....

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/945/fw5hh9.jpg


This pages belong to: "warplanes of the Luftwaffe"

[Panzerknacker]

A detailed video in russian about the Fw-200 and his armament.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyGjNKmCWoc

[Panzerknacker]

Junkers Ju-90.

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/3677/ju90wnr0095zv.jpg

During the developement of the ju-89 (http://www.geocities.com/hjunkers/ju_ju89_a1.htm) Lufthansa became interested in a similar aircraft for transport purposes. Already in 1935 Luftwaffe decided to offer the Ju89V3 to Lufthansa for test flights. Probably it was intended to use the Ju89V3 as a pure cargo aircraft at this time.

But when the Ju89 programme was abandoned by Luftwaffe in April 1937, the Ju89V3 underwent major changes, which made it useable as a widebody passenger aircraft. Wings and tails were taken from the original Ju89 design, while the fuselage was a complete new construction and which was much brider than the original Ju89 fuselage. This new design was designated as Ju 90.


The Ju90V1, which was original the Ju89V3, was first flown on August 28th 1937 . During the following flight tests, this prototype crashed on February 7th 1938 due to structural failure during overspeed. The second prototype was delivered to Lufthansa in May 1938 for operational test flights. This second prototype also crashed on November 21st 1938 during tropical flight tests at Bathurst due to an engine failure during take off.

Ju-90V1

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/970/v126gw.jpg


In November 1938 Lufthansa ordered three Junkers Ju90, a further Ju90 was ordered by RLM for flight tests. This aircraft was later also taken over by Lufthansa. South African Airways ordered a further two Junkers Ju90 with Twin Wasp engines. These two aircraft were not delivered until the breakout of WWII and both later went to Luftwaffe. Lufthansa finally ordered a total of 12 Junkers Ju90. Just six were delivered until September 1939. These aircraft were transfered to Luftwaffe together with further deliveries from Junkers. They were used during the occupation of Norway as transport aircraft. Some of them later returned to Lufthansa for a few months, but finally all Ju90s were taken over from Luftwaffe.


JU-90V2 in flight.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9030/v27ax.jpg

In April 1939 the RLM asked Junkers for a further developement of the Ju90 for military transport purposes. The Ju90V5 and V6, also known as Ju90B were the prototypes of this military design. They got a new wing and a BMW139 engine instead of the older BMW132. Modifications were also made at the tail unit and the undercarriage. The V5 flew first on December 5th 1939. A special equipment of the Ju90V6 was a boarding ramp in the floor of the fuselage. This ramp could be used to load cars and larger cargo freight. A further two prototypes (V7, V8) were ordered by Luftwaffe. Again these prototypes were equipped with a modified wing with increased span. The V8 was also equipped with machine gun towers for self defense. Actually the Ju90V8 was introduced as the Ju90 bomber version, known as Ju90S. These two prototypes flew first in September 1941. Delays were caused due to intensive modifications of the original Ju90 design and probably due to problems with the developement of the Ju88 programme. Junkers got an additional RLM request for a further two prototypes (V9, V10), which seemed to be dropped at the beginning of WWII.

......to be continued.

[Panzerknacker]

Junker Ju-90 (continue):

Ju-90B in iraqui markings, this aircraft carried supplies for an spacial detachment of Bf-110 whom provide support to the iraqui insurgent in 1941.

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/2623/iraq9ic.png


A Ju-90B in trouble, the splashes in the foreground are caused by RAF fighters, this aircraft carried supplies to Rommel, the Ju-90 could transport the same cargo as 7 Ju-52/3m.

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/2962/emproblem14ps.jpg


Ju-90S

Military transport/bomber variant (v5,V6 and V7), with BMW 139 (1550hp) due the problem with this powerplant was latter changed to BMW 801C (1660hp)


JU-90S (V7)

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/420/ju90a20pw.jpg



V7 in flight with the open rear ramp.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/2668/ju90s6fv.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

JU-90V8, this armed transport was the prototipe for the future Ju-290.
It had an MG-151 and 5 MG 131. The wingspan was increased 7 meters.

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/9568/ju90v86fk.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Ju-90V5 in flight:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4188/ju90ko7.jpg


Ju-90V7 , several pics showing his loading ramp.


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9947/ju90v7nl5.jpg


http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6721/ju77fv1.jpg


Sd.Kfz 250 get in.


http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7313/ju90sdkfz250uh3.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

A little more:

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1152/11ze0.jpg



http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3116/14823079qm9.jpg



http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9541/87029674cz5.jpg



http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9306/27454898yt6.jpg

[HG]

But what about the Ju-390? That was a real lovely aircraft. Any info Panzerknacker?

[Panzerknacker]

The Ju-390 must be one of the most fascinating aircraft of ww2. Was designed as extreme long range recce and maritime attack plataform and also suggeted to be the replacement of the Messerschmitt Me-264 in the "Amerika bomber " program.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3197/ju390bo0.jpg

I have no my pdfs with me now but Ill post some more later.

[HG]

She would have been great if she was used as a heavy bomber and how do she compare with the B-17 bomber if she would have been made a bomber?

[Panzerknacker]

It was in other category, I think the Ju-390 weights like 2 or 3 B-17s.

[Nickdfresh]

...

Milch on the other hand wanted the project cancelled simply because at that stage the German aero industry was incapable and would remain so, of building a large fleet of heavy bombers.
...
Regards Digger.


Correct. Also, the mindset of the Luftwaffe middle management was very much geared towards tactical air support of troops and operations. Mainly because most Luftwaffe senior officers started out in the infantry, and thusly were most concerned with supporting the Wehrmacht directly.

[Panzerknacker]

Is the tipical quantity vs quality discussion .

[Panzerknacker]

About the Ju-390:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2861/ju390te8.jpg

Extract from "Combat aircrafts of Hitler s Luftwaffe. 1939-45" David Donald.

[windrider]

Here's an interesting story for the conspiracy/mystery lovers...

There is some debate as to whether both of the two Ju 390 built flew. FAGr.5 unit logs show that the V1 prototype (serial marking GH+UK) was used. A Rechlin Test pilot, Oberleutnant Eisermann records in his logbook that he flew the V2 prototype (RC+DA) as late as February 1944. Photographs of two quite distinct Ju 390 aircraft in flight survive from World War II, but the airframe of prototype number 2 was never located after the war.
Hitler's armaments minister Albert Speer gave testimony that a Ju 390 aircraft flown by Junkers test pilots flew a polar route to Japan in 1944.

[Major Walter Schmidt]

I heard that was a ju290 instead of the 390.

[gumalangi]

it is sad, that the strategic thinking Wever was died along with luftwaffe interest on strategic bomber requirement, the Ural Bomber. And was replaced with very much tactical minded person that leads Luftwaffe armed with rather smaller bombers, that purposed more to support of conventional battlefield.

Should Gen. Wever still alive and well by 1942,. that would a scary thought of having four engined bombers across the england,. escorted with much abled Fw 187s or perhaps long range He112s. And Urals Tankograd being grinded with Ural Bombers and red army was with less T34s.

[generalderpanzertruppen]

I was disappointed to see some mention of the mythical Ju-390 New York flight, it's unfortunate to see that story still gets a nudge every now and again, especially from people who should know better!

[Major Walter Schmidt]

I think we should have a thread on the conspiracy theories comcerning th ju390/Ju290.

[Major Walter Schmidt]

it is sad, that the strategic thinking Wever was died along with luftwaffe interest on strategic bomber requirement, the Ural Bomber. And was replaced with very much tactical minded person that leads Luftwaffe armed with rather smaller bombers, that purposed more to support of conventional battlefield.

Should Gen. Wever still alive and well by 1942,. that would a scary thought of having four engined bombers across the england,. escorted with much abled Fw 187s or perhaps long range He112s. And Urals Tankograd being grinded with Ural Bombers and red army was with less T34s.

Well, It is a relif that he did not live after 42; more poeple would have died.

[gumalangi]

Well, It is a relif that he did not live after 42; more poeple would have died.

sad to hitler and the gang i meant ;);)

[generalderpanzertruppen]

And there wouldn't have been fleets of four engined bombers over England in 1942, they would all be in the East. Even if they did fly against England, is there any reason to think that the Spitfires, now cannon armed, wouldn't wreak havoc on the German vier moterens any less efficiently than the tagjäger did against the USAAF over Germany? What sort of fighter escort would they have had over England? Where was all the fuel coming from to run this armarda of four engined bombers? It was way too late in 1942 to use them against England, and even if they could reach the Urals, no Luftwaffe fighters could have protected them, so what would the ever improving Red Air Force have done against them in daylight? Germany had no need for strategic bombers when the war broke out, they needed tactical support, which is what they got. By the time they needed a strategic bomber fleet, the Americans were starting to show interest in using England as a giant air base, which required Germany to make fighters, fighters and more fighters! And they didn't get them then, imagine what effect on fighter production a strategic bomber programme would have had!

troy
www.feldpost.tv

[gumalangi]

And there wouldn't have been fleets of four engined bombers over England in 1942, they would all be in the East. Even if they did fly against England, is there any reason to think that the Spitfires, now cannon armed, wouldn't wreak havoc on the German vier moterens any less efficiently than the tagjäger did against the USAAF over Germany? What sort of fighter escort would they have had over England? Where was all the fuel coming from to run this armarda of four engined bombers? It was way too late in 1942 to use them against England, and even if they could reach the Urals, no Luftwaffe fighters could have protected them, so what would the ever improving Red Air Force have done against them in daylight? Germany had no need for strategic bombers when the war broke out, they needed tactical support, which is what they got. By the time they needed a strategic bomber fleet, the Americans were starting to show interest in using England as a giant air base, which required Germany to make fighters, fighters and more fighters! And they didn't get them then, imagine what effect on fighter production a strategic bomber programme would have had!

www.feldpost.tv

what was i am trying to say, was, should General walter Wever was not dead in June 1936. He was a strategic minded persons, There were indeed ural bombers, Do 18 and Ju 89, and they were both good.

And FW 187, it was much superior than BBf110 in most of every aspect, especially the range, which could be a descend escort for long range vier Motoren bombers.

[Ashes]

The Heinkel He 177 Greif was an advanced bomber for it's time, over 1,300 of all types being built.
The end for the He 177 came in late 1944 when high grade fuel wasn´t available in the quantity needed to operate a whole Geschwader and the implementation of the Emergency Fighter Program. At this point the He 177 proved to be the most reliable, rugged and technically advanced bomber of the Luftwaffe.

If the Luftwaffe had more of them early in the war to strike Soviet production centres being established behind the Urals, it may have had an impact, but I guess the Soviets would have simply withdrew further into Siberia, the advantage of almost limitless space.

Loaded weight: 31,000 kg (68,340 lb)
Length: 22 m (72 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 31.44 m (103 ft 1 in)
Armament
2 x 20 mm MG 151 cannon
3 x MG 131 machine gun
3 x MG 81 machine gun
up to 7,200 kg (15,873 lb) of bombs or 3 guided missiles Henschel Hs 293 or Fritz X

[Major Walter Schmidt]

Well the engines had a bad habit of catcing fire....

[Schwerpunkt]

The Soviets could not keep moving their production plants without seriously affecting production. The He177 or even the DO89 could have made a big difference. Tactically, the Luftwaffe was excellent, but strategically it was poor.

[generalderpanzertruppen]

The He-177 would have been much better with four single engines, ala He-277 or the even better He-274.

[snebold]

Luftwaffe did assemble bombers for use against strategic targets in the east from time to time, only to disperse them again to deal with "emergency" tactical situations. A concerted programme of strategic bombing, even on a small scale, would have been quite useful for the Germans, but when the "Blitz´es" were over and the need for strategic bombing manifested itself the situation on the ground demanded (the Germans thought) the bombers be used for tactical purposes and to be perverted (and lost) in transport operations for which they were ill suited.

[Panzerknacker]

BV-222 Wiking:

Heavy 6 engine flying boat originally developed for Lufthansa in 1937 for the transatlantic Berlin-New York route, seized by the luftwaffe in wartime and devoted to long range recce and transport missions.

http://tinypic.com/j9px7d.jpg



http://tinypic.com/j9q6aa.jpg



http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1130/acercamientoproahx8.jpg

[BearMgk]

dont want to be the bad guy here but for your info the biggest plane of ww2 was a soviet plane but it wasnt used in war the same goes for the german big plane dorneer and something dont remember the model

[Major Walter Schmidt]

dont want to be the bad guy here but for your info the biggest plane of ww2 was a soviet plane but it wasnt used in war the same goes for the german big plane dorneer and something dont remember the model

The biggest aircraft built in WWII is the H4 Spruce Goose and the heaviest is th B&V 238. correct me if im wrong.

[Panzerknacker]

dont want to be the bad guy here but for your info the biggest plane of ww2 was a soviet plane but it wasnt used in war the same goes for the german big plane dorneer and something dont remember the model


And in wich post I said it was the bigger ? :roll:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3419/bramojn3.jpg

[pdf27]

The biggest aircraft built in WWII is the H4 Spruce Goose and the heaviest is th B&V 238. correct me if im wrong.
Biggest and heaviest AEROPLANES. If you're being awkward you can point out that Airships are also aircraft, and they are much bigger and heavier than any aeroplane of WW2. The Graf Zeppelin had it's last flight 12 days before WW2 started, but was broken up in 1940 so is marginal for consideration. The Goodyear K-class blimps were certainly used in WW2, and at 260ft long is somewhat larger than even the Huges Hercules (Spruce Goose). Weight is likely to be lower though...

[Major Walter Schmidt]

I see.... Thanks!

[Panzerknacker]

Blomh & Voss Bv-222, Images of the mock-up civilian variant, it would transport 80 people with full luxuries. Never made it to series production.


http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/402/52559935eq0.jpg



http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1736/22qj9.jpg



http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6760/222ty7.jpg

[cj_ady]

Wen we tolk about ww2 we always thinck about the german army , the SS ,the tiger tank , the stucka dive bomber , and the moust tretning is the german bombers...My personely favorit is He 111 and the Ju 88...I think that this airplanes chenged the face of the war ...The invazion of britan the invazion of poland and france...and not the last U.R.S.S. ...All my respect is for the german air superioriti and military strategi and inteligence...they whose the moust graitest army in the warld ....and if they didn't had so enemy's they wood had won this war...But lest's tock obout the bombers , Germany had the moust graitest engeners and inventor...is to bad dat they diden't treat them like the americans tret theyer invenors and syentist...

[pdf27]

Don't know about you, but I don't particularly think of any one army when thinking about WW2. And I've never particularly been impressed by the German bombers in particular - poor performance and lack of growth potential.

As for the Germans having the greatest scientists and inventors - that's a good laugh. They weren't any better than the Allies, and failed badly when it came to introducing ideas into service as well worked-out productionised designs.

[Egorka]

That used to be Ju-52... But it was shot down while carrying Gedrman parashootists to Ardens...
27 Dec 1944...

http://forum.exler.ru/arc/uploads/127/post-1165610608.jpg
http://forum.exler.ru/arc/uploads/127/post-1165610608.jpg

http://forum.exler.ru/arc/uploads/127/post-1165610676.jpg
http://forum.exler.ru/arc/uploads/127/post-1165610676.jpg

http://community.livejournal.com/warhistory/1334460.html

[Panzerknacker]

Nasty pics,

is the Ju-52 a "heavy"??... I dont think so

[Egorka]

is the Ju-52 a "heavy"??... I dont think so
Do not be sooooo critical towards me.... ;)
Anyway it is heavier than water...

[Panzerknacker]

Arado 232 tausendfüssel

The Ar.232 was a uniquely styled transport aircraft. The first prototype flew in 1941 powered by two 1,192kW BMW 801MA radial engines. It is believed that only 18 to 20 further aircraft were built as Ar.232As or B-0s and Ar.232Bs, most of which were powered by four 894kW BMW Bramo 323R-2 radials and carried a crew of four and about 4,500kg of cargo (including vehicles).

Ar.232s, including the prototypes, served with the Luftwaffe from 1942 until 1944. A unique feature of the design was its landing gear: a retractable main nosewheel type gear and a secondary gear of ten pairs of smaller wheels on shorter legs situated under the fuselage.
The latter were normally off the ground but took the weight of the aircraft during loading and unloading when the main undercarriage legs were reduced in length to facilitate cargo handling.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/2190/aradosh5.jpg

[pdf27]

Oooh, a scaryplane I haven't seen before! Thanks PK!

[Panzerknacker]

You dont ?, well is not that rare.

[Major Walter Schmidt]

reminds me of Thunderbird #2
http://fw190a8.hp.infoseek.co.jp/artb2/tb02bw.jpg

[Librarian]

And now, honorable Ladies an Gentlemen, after that excellent presentation of one and only Arado Ar 232 Tazelwurm, something more about one truly gargantuan German airplane – machine which established completely new standards within boundaries of the military airborne transportation capacities, a little tribute regarding one frequently ridiculed, but in the very same time conceptually highly innovative machine that successfully introduced concept of strategic air-lift, conceptionaly very advanced machine with capacious fuselage and nose doors that was ahead of other nations' transport aircrafts – something about Me 323 Gigant- the biggest land-based transport airplane during the WW2.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-6.jpg

Me 323 in flight

Conceptual theorists of military power all seem to agree that concentration of ground forces should be used with maximum effect directed towards the so called decisive strategic point. However, for a nation that had widespread civil experience with air transportation and had pioneered the military application of airlift by ferrying General Francisco Franco's Moroccan troops to Spain in 1936, Germany was strangely hesitant in the field of decisive strategic employment of the transport aviation. The standard Junkers Ju 52 transporter was obviously lacking ability for truly effective strategic reallocation of ground effectives, and its fleet not only was used for airlift but provided a substantial proportion of the aircraft employed in Luftwaffe training programs.

In operations that proceeded according to schedule, Luftwaffe air transport apparatus worked well, as was demonstrated in the employment of air-dropped and air-landed troops in Norway and the Netherlands in 1940 and in the capture of Crete in the spring of 1941, but it was evident that German air transport forces are completely inadequate for suitable strategic delivery of men, equipment and materials. With narrow, cramped fuselages, sloped steeply on the ground, as well as with a undersized side doors, existing transportation airplanes were limited to possible loads like troops, light infantry weapons, spare parts, ammunition and - with difficulty - fuel drums or motorcycles. Anything really heavy or bulky had to go by surface means – either on land or at sea. And that was completely unacceptable as a solution for strategically important, rapid operations like invasion of Great Britain. Preliminary studies showed that ability of transported assault troops for instantaneous employment of heavy armor, flak and other massive items with the very first airborne assault is the very crucial question of authoritative strategic success.

Although the Soviets had airlifted trucks and even light tanks by hanging them out in the slipstream underneath their heavy bombers, it was evident that truly effective haulage of heavy equipment requires capped aerial transporters of greater capability.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-1.jpg

Me 323 is loading an Opel Blitz (Kfz.305) 3-ton lorry

Leading German construction bureaus Junkers and Messerschmitt therefore were asked to design and develop a very large transport gliders suitable for the delivery of both men and materials, with a highly demanding requirement toward constructions which ought to be able to carry either an 88-mm gun and half-track tractor, or a PzKpfw IV medium tank, or 120 completely equipped soldiers.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-3.jpg

15 cm sFh 18 Immergrün Divisional heavy howitzer towed by Sd.Kfz 7 is entering the Me 323’s cargo compartment

Junkers company constructed the Ju 322 Mammut (Mammoth) glider capable to accommodate 100 fully equipped soldiers, but this construction when tested demonstrated unacceptable tendency toward longitudinal instability, so consequently it was cancelled by the Reichsluftfahrtministeriurn[/]. On the other hand, Messerschmitt's Me 321 was completely successful design with braced high-wing configuration structured by means of welded steel tubes, wood and fabric.

The pilot was located high atop the fuselage in a single-seat cockpit, adjacent to the wing's leading edge. Access to the main cabin was via large clamshell doors in the nose or by doors on each side of the rear fuselage. Calculated payload was 22 tons.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-2.jpg

FLAK 18/36 entering the cargo compartment of the Me 323

Although Me 321 represented a completely functional transportation solution, it has been realized early in 1941 that motorized variant of the Me 321 is needed. It was observed that a huge glider that needed specific towing aircrafts, rocket packs and other highly specialized equipment was not the answer for effective full-autonomous application. Consequently, and after a large amount of tests, French built twin-row, radial, air-cooled [i]Gnome-Rhone GR 14 N engines were applied as power sources for this new variant designated as Me 323 Gigant, because they already were in production, thus being capable to assure complete prevention of additional demands to German aircraft engine industry, already heavily encumbered with manufacturing engines for combat aircrafts. Additionally, these machines were easily boltable on the wings in nacelles of the same type as those designed for the French Bloch 175 bomber, which also needed to be strengthened. Small compartments for flight engineers were added in each wing between the inboard and centre engines too, although the pilot could override each engineer’s decision on engine and propeller control.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-7.jpg

Me 323 cross-section

A brand-new permanent landing gear was bolted on to the side of each fuselage as well, which gave the superb rough-field performance to the airplane. Along each side existed a tandem-wheel front trucks and a main gear with three larger wheels. All wheels were sprung by massive levers and coil springs to keep the Me 323 level no matter what the load was on board on the roughest unprepared airstrips.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-10.jpg

Me 323 Gigant main landing gear

Compared to the Me 321, the Me 323 had a significantly reduced payload of 12 tons, although its cargo compartment that was 3,35 m high, 3,13 m wide and 11 m long was specially built and reinforced like a railway platform, thus completely providing with its 100 m3 capacity an aerial equivalent of a standard German rail car.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-11.jpg

Fabric-covered steel tubing represented the basic structure of the airplane

If air superiority was assured these machines were capable to provide significant payload shipments in North Africa and Soviet Union. Although often derided as an "Scotch-tape bomber," the Me 323 nevertheless remained a completely satisfactory cargo-plane, with a high loading capacity and easily and inexpensively repairable structure, being definitely one of the largest and most remarkable air vehicles in World War II.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-5.jpg

Hauling a cavalry squadron? No problem for the Me 323!

Well, that’s all for today honorable ladies and gentlemen. In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Panzerknacker]

Defensive armament (MG 131) in the Arado 232, there was also ports for MG-34 machinegunsin order taht the carried infantry could help to defend the aircraft. Note also the multiple wheels, the reason after its nickname "one thousand feet"

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/4890/arado232av1.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Hauling a cavalry squadron? No problem for the Me 323!

Well, that’s all for today honorable ladies and gentlemen. In the meantime, as always – all the best


Very nice, that picture seems to be one of the only Me-323V with 4 engines and two blade propellers.

[Librarian]

Thank you my, dear Mr. Panzerknacker. I have noticed that one direct picture link is not working, but now it seems that aforesaid problem is fixed. And please, don’t worry - I am assuring you that overrepresented pictures are not the unaccompanied ones! :)

[Panzerknacker]

Sure dont. I can see all your 8 photos about the Me-323. :cool:

[Librarian]

Blast, only 8 photos? Well, it seems to me that the Good Ole Photobucket is slightly overloaded these days… :roll:

Well, never mind – here is the last one that was intended for today’s presentation. I hope that you do like this tiny, but highly usable machine designed by Heinrich Ernst Kniepkamp. If you do – it’s all yours! :D

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-4.jpg

SdKfz 2 is leaving the payload compartment of the Me 323

[Panzerknacker]

The Kettenkrad, yea sure who doesnt like it, by the way... have you some pictures of the Arado 232 ? I find just a few.

[Librarian]

Just give me a couple of days, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker - I have to give a check to more than 150 different examples of war-time Axis magazines I have here in my precious library. ;)

On the other hand, here are some additional photos of the Me 323 Gigant:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-12.jpg

Me 323, Kecskemét, Hungary – 1944

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-14.jpg

Me 323, Eastern front – 1944

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-13.jpg

7.5 cm PaK 40 is entering cargo-compartment of the Me 323 Gigant

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :)

[Major Walter Schmidt]

how come in foto #1 the gigants were on their tails but on #2 they were upright? is it cargo? would an unloaded gigant sit on its tail?

[Librarian]

Correct observation, my dear Herr Major! Indeed, Me 323 was tail-heavy when empty, because the center of gravity was deliberately placed far aft. This unusual solution, however, was intentionally established for the reason that heavy freight in this way was enhanced in its natural tendency to slip toward downed and declivous cargo platform. Load was supplementaly moved by Earth’s gravity to the exact center of balance, thus automatically compensating preponderance of the tail. Parenthetically, that’s the explanation why you frequently will see oil drums supporting the Me 323’s tail when machine is empty. :)

[Nickdfresh]

Hi Liberian.

Do you know how many examples of the ME323 were produced?

[Digger]

Hi Liberian.

Do you know how many examples of the ME323 were produced?

I believe 198 examples were accepted by the Luftwaffe and production ended in April 1944.

Digger

[Panzerknacker]

Yea but probably the total is well over two hundred.

[Digger]

Some more pics of the Me 323
http://i25.tinypic.com/2ef5f1x.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/okbcav.jpg

Digger

[Major Walter Schmidt]

http://i27.tinypic.com/okbcav.jpg

Digger

Heinrich:Hey, Hans are these the new "Bovine organic armoured eco-friendly tanks"?
Hans: Ja. they ran out of steel.

[Librarian]

Yea but probably the total is well over two hundred.

More precisely - 211 machines, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. :)

Also I am afraid that I have some bad news too: alas, I was unable to find some additional, previously unpublished photos of Arado 232 Tazelwurm. However, those connected with our current celebrity, Me 323, are still on hand.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me323-16.jpg

Me 323 Gigant on takeoff – Eastern Front, April 1944

[Panzerknacker]

No worry Lib, I found two more.


V1

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/3041/v1pd2.jpg

Quite interesting aircraft the Arado, the V1 and V2 protos were twin engined BMW 801C , and the series aircraft used four BMW Bramo.

Its wings had a increased surface flaps with gave it STOL capabilities, the tousand feet wheel configuration made easier the landings and take off in grass and or improvisated airfields.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/9929/404pxar2323nq3.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4615/aradomn6.jpg

A short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPn4f6-Du9E

[maleonardo]

It was a shame, that the Luftwaffe didn´t have a heavy bomber. I believe it was a pitty that the Me 264 didn´t used in the war. This plane had an interesting design, if you watch carefully, the B-29 it´s very similar to the Me 264

[Panzerknacker]

The most serious heavy bomber attemp was the He-177, but it was eventually flawed by technical and political reasons.


He-177 gallery:

http://i37.tinypic.com/969ssl.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/2mzjfvb.jpg


http://i33.tinypic.com/sweouw.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/b8ohex.jpg

[flamethrowerguy]

Right, due to his technical unreliability (various engine burnings) the He 177 was nicknamed: "Burning coffin", "Reichsfeuerzeug" (=Reichs-lighter) and "Reichsfackel" (=Reichs-torch).

[Panzerknacker]

I can ad that several prototypes and pre-production examples of He-117 fell like flies. :shock:


http://i33.tinypic.com/24crrie.jpg

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

any pictures of the He-277?

[Major Walter Schmidt]

He 277 here
http://www.luftwaffephotos.com/lhe1773.htm
He274 (another he 177 projeckt)
http://www.luftwaffephotos.com/lhe2741.htm

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Thanks Major Schmidt, looks like the wings were made bigger. Do you also have tech links of the he-277? I would like to know more about it. It had potential.

[Major Walter Schmidt]

does this help?
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_277

other
http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/he-277.php
Luftarchive
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugzeuge/heinkel/he177.htm

He277
http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/heinkel/he277_drei.gif
He177
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/bomber/he177/he177data.gif
He274 (another 4-engine he 177 design)
http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/he-274.php
http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/germany/he-274.gif

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

awesome! Thanks man, I was just curios. I'll do my own research, didn't mean to enslave you there. :)

[Major Walter Schmidt]

nah. Just havin some fun.:D

[Panzerknacker]

3 more images of the He-177, extracted form "Warpaint series Nº 33"

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1496/37892157og8.jpg


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6056/79617701dc0.jpg


http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3083/78811073ry5.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Interesting experimental "doppel" ( over & under) rear defensive MG 131 emplacement in He-177 A3.

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Why did the Me-323 use French Gnome-Rhone 14N 48/49 engines?

[Panzerknacker]

Probably because it was available and did not consume german materials and manpower.

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

I was thinking maybe they consumed less fuel compared to the german engines.
Panzerknacker! Thank you so much for the pics of the Ju-90/290/390, i saved them on my pc cause i want to building an rc model of it. If you have anymore pics of the it please post

[Panzerknacker]

You are welcome.
No more on the Ju-390, but here you got some more of Ju-90.

http://i38.tinypic.com/333ygd5.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/ighpw7.jpg


http://i35.tinypic.com/r0wq44.jpg



http://i36.tinypic.com/rtm74k.jpg



http://i37.tinypic.com/2ly31hh.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Edited ( pictues misaligned)

[Panzerknacker]

The Junkers Ju-290 in the transport role, interesting pictures taken in the Pitomnik airfiled, not far away of Stalingrad in winter 1942.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2ep3t6t.jpg


The aircraft is cover with defensive armament including a MG-151/20 for rear defense. Note also the bulgeous fairing below the cockpit:
some camera ? an Lofte bombsigth maybe ? not sure.

http://i34.tinypic.com/34do7f7.jpg


http://i36.tinypic.com/ruxsme.jpg

[Librarian]

Well, here are some additional pictures of the Ju 90, honorable ladies and gentlemen.

Although all of them are representing a specific pictorial tribute to the pre-war, civilian Lufthansa times, it has to be emphasized that even in that case this magnificent airplane had an important role in the German war effort.

This sturdy, capacious airplane, was used for a highly important transportation missions in 1940 by the Frachtsonderdienst Wien and Kurierdienst Spanien – a couple of specific half-military subsidiaris of the Deutsche Lufthansa, that sustained till the very end of war.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju90-1.jpg

Junkers Ju 90 – true pride of the Junkers-Werke Dessau

Four machines of this type (D-ADLH, D-ABDG, D-ADFJ and D-AURE) successfully transferred certain critical and extremely rare raw materials like tungsten or zinc, and in each mission up to 3 tons of these exceptionaly rare supplies were transported almost directly to the end users – notorious German metal processing and refining capacities like Degussa, Dürener Metalwerke, Boehler and Osram.

During one of these tours - carried out on July 9th, 1940 - one Italian Fiat G 50 fighter pilot near Udine has made a capital identification mistake in believing that the Ju 90 was a British reconnaissance plane, and consequently he opened fire on it! Hovewer, Ju 90 even though full-loaded, was capable to escape, and to achieve a successful force-landing at Aviano airport.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju90-2.jpg

Berlin – Tempelhof, July 13th, 1938 – complete engine alteration in 25 minutes!

Another almost completely forgotten characteristic of this plane was its ability for a quick engine change. On July 13th, 1938 four qualified Lufthansa technicians have demonstrated for those times almost unbelievable capacity to change an entire module of the huge BMW 132-H1 engine in astonishing 25 minutes!

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju90-3.jpg

Junkers Ju 90 - Der große Dessauer

Being one of the very first modern large airplanes of the world, this machine surely will be remembered as an unexploited landmark of the aeronautical history.

In the meantime, as always - all the best! ;)

[Panzerknacker]

Nice pictures but you should edit a little, they are too big.

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Thanks Liberian! These pics give me a good reference of the front and side!

[BZikica]

Why did the Me-323 use French Gnome-Rhone 14N 48/49 engines?
After the French defeat Germans captured a certain quantity of assembled Gnome Rhone engines at the factory. So, when it was considered to modify Me 321 heavy glider into an powered aircraft solution was find in captured stocks. Other engine types were already planned to be used in more (for German war machinery) important aircraft types.
Anyway, Me 323 was conidered to be heavily under-powered.

[Librarian]

Oh, not at all, my dear Mr. SS Ouche-Vittess – as a modeler I perfectly do know what your real needs are! I hope that these additional pictures will be useful too. :)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju90-4.jpg

Loading of an early Ju 90 equipped with the DB engines – Berlin, Tempelhof 1938.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju90-6.jpg

A couple of the Ju 90 machines – Berlin, Tempelhof 1939

Of course, I shall try to find some additional snapshots as well. In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Thanks again Liberian! You and Panzerknacker are helping me alot. thank!!! :)

[Librarian]

Oh, the pleasure was mine, my dear Mr. SS Ouche Vittese. :)

You know, modeling can be very educational, and you can learn a whole range of new things: History (because models reflect the times they operated in, and vice versa), artistic techniques, how to research, manual skills, engineering, geography…

Modeling also appels to all people, in all walks of life. If you find a group of modelers, you will find lawyers and doctors, engineers, shop keepers, business people, military folks, mechnics, carpenters, artists, athletes and – believe it or not – politicians. Young and old, rich and poor. And that’s thrilling.

As a specific augmentation for your start, here is another snapshot for you. I am sure that you will be able to recognize this beauty. ;)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Fw200Condor.jpg

Fw 200 Condor – Budaörs, Hungary, 1938.

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :)

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Wow! I've never seen a fw-200 as an airliner.

[Sickles]

Ahhh the FW 200 Condor, the flying Zippo lighter!

[Dornier335nut]

does this help?
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_277

other
http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/he-277.php
Luftarchive
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugzeuge/heinkel/he177.htm

He277
http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/heinkel/he277_drei.gif
He177
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/bomber/he177/he177data.gif
He274 (another 4-engine he 177 design)
http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/he-274.php
http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/germany/he-274.gif


Hello,

I don't know if anyone would be interested in this but I'm working on a 1/48 scale conversion for the MPM kit of this aircraft. Let me know if anyone would be interested in purchasing a conversion. It should be available for sale within the next two months. Also, if there are any other versions of the He 177 you'd like to see in model form, please feel free to suggest. Thank you.

Nicholas

[Major Walter Schmidt]

cool! too bad MPM 1/48 he 177 is way too expensive or me and I would have no place to put a he 177 let alone a 277 :D

[Dornier335nut]

cool! too bad MPM 1/48 he 177 is way too expensive or me and I would have no place to put a he 177 let alone a 277 :D



Come on, it will be fun. Everyones doing it. :D

[Panzerknacker]

Not a production aircraft but interesting continuation of the dual bomber/transport concept.

Messerchmitt P.08.01.

http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep08-1.jpg

In early 1939, Dr. Alexander Lippisch moved to the Messerschmitt Aircraft Company in Augsburg with most of his closest coworkers. Dr. Wurster designed the P.08.01 in September 1941, which was basically a flying wing design. The wing featured two different sweepback angles, and contained the armored fuel tanks. The fuel could also be jettisoned if need be. Four Daimler Benz DB 615 engines (or DB 613 if teh DB 615 engines were not ready in time), mounted on the wing trailing edge, provided the power. The engine radiators were located in the wing's leading edge and a huge bomb bay/cargo area was to be found in the central fuselage area. A tricycle landing gear arrangement was chosen, with the main gear having double wheels.

http://www.xplanes3d.com/Images/MeP0801/MeP0801_Scene_1.jpg


The cockpit was pressurized and a provision was made for remote controlled defensive armament in the nose and tail. Underwing weapons or loads could also be carried. The P.08.01 was designed as per a specification for a super heavy aircraft that could fulfill several different roles. These included:

Long range bomber with a bomb load of 20000 kg (44092 lbs) and a range of 15000 km (9321 miles)
Maritime patrol aircraft with a bomb load of 20000 kg (44092 lbs) of radio-controlled glide bombs, mines or torpedoes
Tactical bomber with 50000 kg (110230 lbs) and a range of 2500 km (1554 miles)
Long range reconnaissance aircraft with a range of 27000 km (16778 miles)
Tactical or strategic wide-body transport with a provision to carry at least a 25 ton tank or an equivalent amount of equipment
Tow aircraft for transport gliders up to 100000 kg (220460 lbs) flying weight
Flak carrier aircraft for four 88mm flak cannons
http://www.luft46.com/mlart/ml08-2.jpg



http://www.luft46.com/mlart/ml08-6.jpg




http://www.xplanes3d.com/web_pages/Projects_Luftwaffe.html

http://www.luft46.com/

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Wouldn't there be trouble find the COG of the plane after taking new loads like a tank? Cause a flying wing only works by having a perfect COG in the wing to achieve leveled flight right? Amirite?

[Panzerknacker]

The tank seems to be near the center of gravity, just my view. :rolleyes:

[pdf27]

Wouldn't there be trouble find the COG of the plane after taking new loads like a tank?
Not really. Paint a line on the floor of the aircraft marking the CofG. Paint a line on the tank marking the CofG. Ensure the two lines are level. Job jobbed.

Cause a flying wing only works by having a perfect COG in the wing to achieve leveled flight right? Amirite?
Nope. If it did it would be unable to climb, descend or go around corners!

[Kiwiguy]

Windrider wrote on page 2:

Here's an interesting story for the conspiracy/mystery lovers...

There is some debate as to whether both of the two Ju 390 built flew. FAGr.5 unit logs show that the V1 prototype (serial marking GH+UK) was used. A Rechlin Test pilot, Oberleutnant Eisermann records in his logbook that he flew the V2 prototype (RC+DA) as late as February 1944. Photographs of two quite distinct Ju 390 aircraft in flight survive from World War II, but the airframe of prototype number 2 was never located after the war.
Hitler's armaments minister Albert Speer gave testimony that a Ju 390 aircraft flown by Junkers test pilots flew a polar route to Japan in 1944.


Actually Windrider everybody has gotten it wrong for years. The Ju-390 with markings GH+UK is longer than the other marked RC+DA. The Ju-390 V1 was just 31.1 metres long. The Ju-390 V2 was longer at 34.2 metres.

It is no conspiracy theory. There were two Ju-390 aircraft. Just check out the photos. RC+DA was Ju-390 V1. Ju-390V2 was GH+UK.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/V2differences.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/V1differences.jpg

[Comrade Commisar]

The Messerschmitt Me 321/323 Gigant

NOTE:Text is in order of photos

With the sudden realisation that existing assets would be in sufficient to the task of invading Great Britain, the Luftwaffe ordered a giant aircraft to transport men, supplies and vehicles. The immense Gigant family dwarfed all other contemporary aircraft, but suffered innumerable problems, leading to its eventual demise.

By 1943, the Me 323E-1 had become the standord model. It had greater fuel capacity, more armour and enchanced armament compared to the previous variants.

The planned invasion of the British Isles, Operation Sealion required heavy equipment to be airlifted with the first airborne assault. Although the invasion never took place, the Me 321 transport glider did reach production status.

Seen here head-on is the Me 323 V1, prototype of the four-engined Me 323C series which was not put into production. The four GR 14N 48/49 engines did not provide suffucuent power for take-off at full load and, although the Troikaschlepp was not essential, a powerful tug would still have been required.

Take-offs were a problem for the Me 321. There was no aircraft of sufficient power available in numbers to launch the glider and, following rather discouraging model tests, the Troikaschlepp was devised.
This involed three Messerschmitt Bf 110s all pulling one me 321, the centre tug having a towline 66 ft (20 m) longer than those of the others.

(No text, pic has the text in it.)

The ultimate standard formof Gigant was the Me 323E-2, this is an E-2 OF I./TG 5, which was desperately overworked on the Eastern Front from late 1943.
This aircraft has a white stripe ahead of the tail instead of the expected yellow theatre band.
The E-2 differed from earlier versions chiefly in defensive armament, the normal fit comprising two hand-aimed MG 131s low down in the front doors, another MG 131 firing aft from the radio compatment behind the cockpit, two 20-mm MG 151s in low-drag EDL 151 turrets behind the outboard engines, and four single MG 131s firing from front and rear beam positions.

[windrider]

there's already a Me 323 topic on this forum. Could you add your content instead of starting a new one ?

[Comrade Commisar]

Sorry didint know.

[windrider]

No problem mate. Nice pictures though... What book is that ?

[Sergej]

Copy your post and paste it here:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4618
And ask a Mod to delete this thread.

[pdf27]

No need - with my awesome powers of moderation I can just merge the two threads together!

[Comrade Commisar]

The book is called The Encyclopedia of Aircraft of WWII.

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Not really. Paint a line on the floor of the aircraft marking the CofG. Paint a line on the tank marking the CofG. Ensure the two lines are level. Job jobbed.


Nope. If it did it would be unable to climb, descend or go around corners!

but then that's why there are control surfaces for the plane and any plane in general.

[Panzerknacker]

The forgotten big and heavy brother of the Ju-52 3m

http://i38.tinypic.com/312g2nr.jpg

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

bleah! i saw the nose, it's so ugly. why couldn't they just have twin like the c-47? I know the advantages of having 3 engined planes for safety reasons but you don't get efficient prop wash with a engine in front of the nose.

[Librarian]

True, my dear Mr. SS Ouche-Vittes, but in some cases that "central" propwash, if I may say so, could be usable.

As you know, propwash moves as a helix, spiraling backwards around the fuselage like a corkscrew rotating in the same direction of motion as the propeller. The wash thus strikes body, wing and all tail surfaces at an distinctive angle, and usually has an especially powerful effect upon yaw - by changing the angle of attack of the fin and rudder (which must be deflected to make the airplane fly straight). A right-hand propeller (rotating to the right, or clockwise when seen from behind) causes propwash to come from the left, inducing a fin side-force to the right, which yaws the nose to the left, so that the pilot has to apply right rudder, or vice versa.

However, that helix – theoretically! – if adequately deflected by certain specific aerodynamical surfaces, is exploitable for additional lift augmentation. Some sadly neglected American experiences achieved with nowadays almost completely forgotten machine Northrop C-125 Raider are indicating that the epoch of a tri-motor configuration was somehow... unfairly ended. :(

On the other hand, aforementioned problems were irrelevant for these airplanes. I hope that you will like them. ;)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Fw200Condor-2.jpg

Fw 200 Condor C0 – VIP transporter of the Luftwaffe

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Fw200Condor-4.jpg

Fw 200 C-3

Although these airplanes are not those legendary CE + IB or GC + AE Condors of the Fw 200 C-4 U/1 type that belonged to the Fliegerstafel des Führers, I think that the following specific musical incantation will be suitable as augmentative moderato for an all-encompassing revocation of the past at the Berlin – Tempelhof in late thirties and early forties. Please, just follow this link:

http://audiofile.org.ua/song/235640.html

You know, even though a truly brilliant British composer Ron Goodwin composed this music for that magnificent motion picture "Battle of Britain" (filmed in 1969, directed by Mr. Guy Hamilton), this absolutely invocative and directly-striking piece of art is perhaps the most expressive portion of military music composed after the WW2 capable to represent the ruling spirit of those times.

Enjoy! :)

[aly j]

True, my dear Mr. SS Ouche-Vittes, but in some cases that "central" propwash, if I may say so, could be usable.

As you know, propwash moves as a helix, spiraling backwards around the fuselage like a corkscrew rotating in the same direction of motion as the propeller. The wash thus strikes body, wing and all tail surfaces at an distinctive angle, and usually has an especially powerful effect upon yaw - by changing the angle of attack of the fin and rudder (which must be deflected to make the airplane fly straight). A right-hand propeller (rotating to the right, or clockwise when seen from behind) causes propwash to come from the left, inducing a fin side-force to the right, which yaws the nose to the left, so that the pilot has to apply right rudder, or vice versa.

However, that helix – theoretically! – if adequately deflected by certain specific aerodynamical surfaces, is exploitable for additional lift augmentation. Some sadly neglected American experiences achieved with nowadays almost completely forgotten machine Northrop C-125 Raider are indicating that the epoch of a tri-motor configuration was somehow... unfairly ended. :(

On the other hand, aforementioned problems were irrelevant for these airplanes. I hope that you will like them. ;)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Fw200Condor-2.jpg

Fw 200 Condor C0 – VIP transporter of the Luftwaffe

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Fw200Condor-4.jpg

Fw 200 C-3

Although these airplanes are not those legendary CE + IB or GC + AE Condors of the Fw 200 C-4 U/1 type that belonged to the Fliegerstafel des Führers, I think that the following specific musical incantation will be suitable as augmentative moderato for an all-encompassing revocation of the past at the Berlin – Tempelhof in late thirties and early forties. Please, just follow this link:

http://audiofile.org.ua/song/235640.html

You know, even though a truly brilliant British composer Ron Goodwin composed this music for that magnificent motion picture "Battle of Britain" (filmed in 1969, directed by Mr. Guy Hamilton), this absolutely invocative and directly-striking piece of art is perhaps the most expressive portion of military music composed after the WW2 capable to represent the ruling spirit of those times.

Enjoy! :)

I must say that the Germans had really acttractive equitment juring ww2, and also they had really good camouflage for there aircraft.
Note that the aircraft is dark on top- is to imic the ground and the bottom of the aircraft is light- is to imic the clouds.
Please dont attack me for this, i dont know how to type like youre guys can.
Truce.

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

Liberian, i first fell in love with the fw-200 Condor. I like condors, where i come from, condors are symbolized in art. i liked it cause i've never heard of it and because of it's sleek design. But soon after i discovered the Ju-90/290/390s. Those i love too because they're attractive and rare like the fw-200. I love the ramps on the junkers and the fact that they carried huge loads and possessed great range!

[flamethrowerguy]

i first fell in love with the fw-200 Condor. I like condors, where i come from, condors are symbolized in art. i liked it cause i've never heard of it and because of it's sleek design.

...then I hope this won't break your heart! :mrgreen:

2883

[SS Ouche-Vittes]

it's ok, flamethrowerguy! i am aware of it's structural weaknesses.

[flamethrowerguy]

it's ok, flamethrowerguy! i am aware of it's structural weaknesses.

No, that's not what I wanted to say, it is a beautiful plane. The one in the photo was just supposed to be terribly overloaded.

[Panzerknacker]

Junkers G-38:

This large, heavy and nearly experimental 4 engine transport was used briefly by the Luftwaffe.
Originally built for Lufthansa only two were completed in 1929 and 1931. The first crashed in 1934, the surviving aircraft was "adquired" by the Luftwaffe in 1939 and provide and very large air transport capacity for soldiers and cargo. ( actually the G 38 have seats in the wingroots, so it was more or less like today wide fuselage commercial planes)

Eventually was destroyed in the ground by british fighters while it served in the Balcanic campaign.
http://i35.tinypic.com/dcl6g.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Specifications:

http://i36.tinypic.com/5otdme.jpg


The "Generalfeldmarschall Hindenburg" fueled up. Note the wing passengers windows.

http://i34.tinypic.com/23lfdok.jpg


The same aircraft with Luftwaffe markings in Le bourget, June 1940.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2vccgi8.jpg