What Messerschmitt Bf 109 variant do you like most?

[Flammpanzer]

Well, maybe this is a bit senseless, but I would to know what version of the one-O-nine YOU like most and why? :D

I personally like the late G-versions (G-10 or G-14) and the K-4 ("Kurfürst") most, because it was the most elegant and potent machine of this type. I like the Erla-Haube and the slim tailfin and also the retractable rear-wheel.

So, gentlemen, what about you opinion?

Here I found a nice clip with the Messerschmitt 109G from the Messerschmitt-Stiftung. Just listen to that fantastic sound! Interesting: the difficult landing, that is typical for that plane with such a narrow track and due to the torque of the prop.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1124570

Jens

[Wolfgang Von Gottberg]

I like the G variants too. Don't know much about them though, just look cool to me.

[Panzerknacker]

The retractable tailwheel was present since the F variant, is just that in the later ones was let fixed for preserve the fuselage in case of crash landing.

I am not sure if the right question is "like the most" but wich was more effective in his year of introduction. I think the F-4.

[Splinter54]

Messerschmitt G-10

[Flammpanzer]

I am not sure if the right question is "like the most" but wich was more effective in his year of introduction. I think the F-4.

that would also be an interesting issue, but I was asking for the personal favourite taste of the members. it is just about good looks. ;) I f. e. do not like the E-versions much, compared to the K, they look a bit plump.

jens

[Digger]

For me I prefer the F-4.

It seems most pilots had no real problems during take off or landing, though quite a few mention the long nose of the Messerschmitt created visibility problems and landings had to be carried out by feel.

Some pilots claim the type was more difficult on the ground during the day. It's all relative as some pilots preferred to cut the engine early, while others liked to have the throttle slightly open during landing.

The 'narrow' undercarriage of the 109 is mainly myth. In fact the Spitfire had a more narrow undercarriage. Most German and their Allied pilots claim the Messerschmitt was very stable on the ground. All in all approxiamately 1,500 Messerschmitts were lost in ground accidents throughout it's career which equates to just over 4.5% of total production. This does not seem to be to out of line to other fighters of the period, but I would like to do a bit more research on that.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

The 'narrow' undercarriage of the 109 is mainly myth. In fact the Spitfire had a more narrow undercarriage. Most German and their Allied pilots claim the Messerschmitt was very stable on the ground


Vey true :mrgreen: , The naval variant of the Spit, the seafire was a nightmare lo land in carrier.

I think I now why Splinter54 like the G-10 the most, it was the fastest BF-109 available.

http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/images/bf109g10u4reviewbg_sample.jpg


December 1944 saw the DIANA facility move to construction of the final Bf 109G model. The sole variant produced here was the Bf 109G-10/U4. The Bf 109G-10/U4 aircraft produced at WNF could be distinguished by the following external features:

tall wooden fin (with either B or C style rudder, some with Flettner tab installation)
wide 660x190mm tyres and the large streamlined fairing
improved cockpit heating featuring hot air ducting on the back of the canopy armour
uniquely shaped rivetted fairings below the windscreen (otherwise similar to non-Erla build cowl)
short tail wheel strut
engine mounted 30mm MK 108 cannon (unique to WNF Bf 109Gs)

[Panzerknacker]

Bf-109G2 of Waldemar Huy, JG77, with several ship "killmarks":

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9367/g2bomber8wpei3.jpg




A rare variant, Bf-109G-6/N , a night fighter equipped with IFF and flame dampers. this "kanonenboot" of JG 301 landed in UK after combat with some Lancaster in mid 1944 and it was captured.


http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/5594/g6nocheds0.jpg


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/808/g6noche2hv3.jpg

[Librarian]

Fine question indeed, my dear Mr. Flammpanzer. And also some very exceptional photos, provided by Mr. Panzerknacker. Therefore, thank you for the opportunity. :)

Although I personally do represent some kind of a "middle age techno-freak", in this particular case I shall vote for the good old Bf 109 E-3. And why? Well, mainly because the early forties were the last years when the old WW 1 spirit of aerial adventure, unhampered chivalry, deep esteem toward your enemy, and optimistic pursuit toward technical and tactical perfection have dominated the skies. After that… well, everything was some kind of an almost standardized activity - with occasional exceptions, of course.

Besides, I have one very deep personal reason as well: Bf 109 E probably was the last type of a legendary airplane that was piloted by a guy wearing spectacles during the Battle of Britain.:roll:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-3.jpg

BF 109 E-3, 7/JG 51, 1940

So here you have a real-life picture of my personal trance connected with Bf 109. I don’t know is this airplane that very personal machine of late Mr. Friedrich Beckh - the 'short-sighted' ace of the JG 51 – but, after all, that is completely irrelevant. The only important things are our memories and sentiments connected with those times and those irreproducible personalities.

Once again – thank you for the opportunity. In the meantime - al the best!;)

[Amrit]

I'm going to be really cheeky and say that my favourite has to be, theoretically, the 109Gs with the Merlin engines as used by the Spanish Air Force (and in the BoB film). I would love to think that it was a marriage made in heaven (but does anyone have any performance data on the Spanish 109 / Hispano Aviacion Ha 1112s?)

[Panzerknacker]

I'm going to be really cheeky and say that my favourite has to be, theoretically, the 109Gs with the Merlin engines as used by the Spanish Air Force (and in the BoB film). I would love to think that it was a marriage made in heaven (but does anyone have any performance data on the Spanish 109 / Hispano Aviacion Ha 1112s?)


The Messers made in spain get the prize for the ugliest variant I guess.

[Amrit]

The Messers made in spain get the prize for the ugliest variant I guess.

I agree it didn't look good, but the Merlin seems to have given it 665 Km/h against the Bf 109G-6's 622 km/h, and greater range - 765 km against 724 km. But I'd be interested in any other tech details, if they are available.

[Amrit]

A rare variant, Bf-109G-6/N , a night fighter equipped with IFF and flame dampers. this "kanonenboot" of JG 301 landed in UK after combat with some Lancaster in mid 1944 and it was captured.


http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/5594/g6nocheds0.jpg


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/808/g6noche2hv3.jpg



According to War Prizes by Phil Butler, this was a Bf 109G-6/U2 flown by Horst Prenzel, landed at Manston, 21/07/44. Tested before crashing beyond repair on 23/11/44.

[Panzerknacker]

According to War Prizes by Phil Butler, this was a Bf 109G-6/U2 flown by Horst Prenzel, landed at Manston, 21/07/44. Tested before crashing beyond repair on 23/11/44.

Thanks for the correction.


I agree it didn't look good, but the Merlin seems to have given it 665 Km/h against the Bf 109G-6's 622 km/h, and greater range - 765 km against 724 km. But I'd be interested in any other tech details, if they are available.

The sources gave several maximum speeds for the G-6 like 620, 623, 625 km/h, the fact is that many people forgot that is the maximum speed with the normal power, but the G-6 made after August 1943 had an MW-50 system (wather-methanol injection) wich boosted the DB-605A from 1475hp to 1700 hp for 5 minutes, the maximum speed with this system was some like 655-660 km/h.

[Amrit]

The sources gave several maximum speeds for the G-6 like 620, 623, 625 km/h, the fact is that many people forgot that is the maximum speed with the normal power, but the G-6 made after August 1943 had an MW-50 system (wather-methanol injection) wich boosted the DB-605A from 1475hp to 1700 hp for 5 minutes, the maximum speed with this system was some like 655-660 km/h.

Feels like a game of Top Trumps :D

Mine still beats yours ;)

[Panzerknacker]

Or "The fast and the Furious" :mrgreen: , funny enough the Nitrous oxide was also used in some german fighter but it was corrosive and shortened the engine life.

MW-50 tank in BF-109G-14.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9937/marielsd7.jpg

[Amrit]

I did wonder about the nitrous - and what real use it was except to escape or initial pursuit. Not much use in an actual dogfight.

I'm becoming more intrigued by the Spanish model - I wonder whether weights had to be placed in the tail to compensate for the heavier engine. Sort of opposite of the U2 version with the wooden tail that was heavier than aluminium, requiring weights at the front?

[Panzerknacker]

I cannot found a good site about it, but I know that the spanish HA-112 had several stability troubles due the change of center gravity, same happen with the Czech variant made by Avia.


Very nice rendering of the BF109G-6/R6 variant devoted antibomber aircraft.

http://www2.cc22.ne.jp/~harada/Bf_109_G6/jpg/Bf_109_G6_1.jpg




http://www2.cc22.ne.jp/~harada/Bf_109_G6/jpg/Bf_109_G6_2.jpg



This aircraft could also include a harder hitting centerline MK 108 30mm cannon, in the BF-109G-6/U4/R6.

[Digger]

Quoted speeds for most aircraft are usually manufacturers specs and usually in a clean condition. These speeds were rarely attained in combat, especially as the plane aged.

Regards digger.

[Panzerknacker]

I think the fastest variant was the G-10 .

[Panzerknacker]

Information about the G-10 variant extracted from "BF-109 in action part II" Squadron Signal:

[tankgeezer]

the destroyed ones.

[Panzerknacker]

the destroyed ones.


??????...Meaning what ?

[tankgeezer]

??????...Meaning what ? Meaning one does not have to fight that which is already destroyed.

[shoogs]

ok as you all might now or gess i am rather new with all this, now i am very confused as i was looking at two pics, one being the bf109 the other being the me109 both aircraft look the same and i must admit i have never been able to tell them apart, i always thought they were the same both being the 109's just one is the me to wich i thought stood for Messerschmitt so bf stands for ?,iv done a little research and found this.

The BF109 E was the Luftwaffe's standard single-seat fighter for the first three years of the war and was able to outfight or outrun virtually all opposition. From the summer of 1942 the Messerschmitt 109G powered by a Daimler-Benz producing 1,800 hp with water-methanol injection and giving a speed of 685 km/h (428 mph), entered service in Russia and North Africa before being deployed in every other theater. With its standard armament of a cannon and two machine guns the Messerschmitt 109, like the Spitfire , saw action throughout the war.

Bearing in mind that the Messerschmitt 109 was to become one of the Royal Air Force's major opponents in the Second World War, it is ironic that the prototype had a British Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine when it made its first flight in September 1935. The power plant was, however, soon changed. In any case, Rolls-Royce was using a German built Heinkel He 70 to flight test some of its latest engines at about the same time.

this still dont help me why call one bf and another me, gess im a little slow :rolleyes:

[shoogs]

they are both 109's but what is the diffirance, just the two letters in front or what ?
705
this is the bf109
706
and this is the me109.
they look the same but how can you tell one from the other?? please help.
i did do a little research but didnt find out to much just what is below....yes i know they the same pic but they called bf and me

The BF109 E was the Luftwaffe's standard single-seat fighter for the first three years of the war and was able to outfight or outrun virtually all opposition. From the summer of 1942 the Messerschmitt 109G powered by a Daimler-Benz producing 1,800 hp with water-methanol injection and giving a speed of 685 km/h (428 mph), entered service in Russia and North Africa before being deployed in every other theater. With its standard armament of a cannon and two machine guns the Messerschmitt 109, like the Spitfire , saw action throughout the war.

Bearing in mind that the Messerschmitt 109 was to become one of the Royal Air Force's major opponents in the Second World War, it is ironic that the prototype had a British Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine when it made its first flight in September 1935. The power plant was, however, soon changed. In any case, Rolls-Royce was using a German built Heinkel He 70 to flight test some of its latest engines at about the same time.

[Flammpanzer]

Bf stands for Bayrische Flugzeugwerke, which means Bavarian Aircraftfactories. ME is an abbr. for Messerschmitt (after Willy Messerschmitt, the c.e.o of Messerschmitt ;-)

Messerschmitt means, btw., KNIFESMITH, although the ending SCHMITT is an older word for Schmied, which actually means smith.

there are some very distinguishing things which help to say which one O nine you have in front of you. the E (EMIL) has, f. e., struts for the tail-wings, another canopy and much more things that differ from a late G-model.

jens

[shoogs]

hay thanks for that i didnt mean to put it in here but that what i asked for thanks m8:D

[Flammpanzer]

you`re welcome! IMHO Bf was the official abbr. and ME was inofficial.

jens

[Amrit]

BF is the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (Bavarian Aircraft Works), which Willy Messerschmitt joined in the 1920s. In the late 1930s, the company was changed to Messerschmitt AG, with Willy becoming Director. Those aircraft that had been designed before this retained the Bf (108, 109, 110 - can't remember any others) on official documents, and the ones after became Me. However, the two became pretty much interchangeable.

[shoogs]

r sweet thanks for that so they are the same just the me came out after the company changed with willy messerschmitt. thank you

[Panzerknacker]

Me-109TL.

What about this variant ?

The Messerschmitt 109 Turbo-Lader Strahltriebwerk ( turbocharger jet engine) was proposed on January 22, 1943 at an RLM conference as a back-up for the Me 262, of which only three prototypes had been completed at the time.

http://i20.tinypic.com/2m3leh5.jpg

In order to cut down on design and production time, various components from existing aircraft was to be used. The fuselage from the Me 155B high-altitude fighter was to be used (with a new nose and tail section), the wing was from the Me 209 project II and the undercarriage came from the Me 309. The armament was to be two MG 151/20 20mm cannon (120 rounds each) and two MK 103 30mm cannon, all in the nose.


http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6564/me109tl1fn4.jpg

A later proposal included two MK 108 30mm cannon could be installed in the wing roots.


The performance was estimated to be better than the Me 262 due to the Me 109 TL's narrower fuselage. Following intensive study, by March 1943 it was decided that so many modifications to the various components would be needed that no time would be gained over the Me 262 development, thus the project was abandoned.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5025/me109tl2ij6.jpg

[Librarian]

by March 1943 it was decided that so many modifications to the various components would be needed that no time would be gained over the Me 262 development, thus the project was abandoned.

And I think that aforesaid decision was right, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker – if only because some components for this airplane were overtaken from aircraft that were paper projects themselves – nose wheel of the Me 309, main wheels of the Me 155 B-1, wings of the me 409… for heavens sake - a complete design-patchwork! Therefore, no – thank you, I stay with those classicistic variants. You know, that old fashioned just-point-and-shoot airplane with "a rasping growl combined with the whistle of its hydraulic supercharger" - as poetically described by Mr. Michael Jerram. :)


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me109F.jpg

Messerschmitt Bf 109 F


Anyhow, thanks for your very informative post, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. All the best!;)

[Panzerknacker]

No problem Librarian, Actually the info about the Me-202/309/509 or another alternatives seems always to be insuficient. nice one that Messers with the PK in the side. hehehe

[Librarian]

nice one that Messers with the PK in the side. Hehehe

You like it, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker? If so, don’t worry - here is another one for you. Yes, I know: this is not a photo of that famous… well, international airplane notability PK + HX, but nevertheless… ;)Those immortal dynamic outlines are clearly visible on this excellent Bf 109 photo-study.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2508/bf109f1vj5.jpg

Messerschmitt Bf 109 F – from beneath!

And some other forgotten moments connected with the Bf 109 are evoked on this photography too: Augsburg, 1941 – assembly line of the Messerschmitt GmbH Regensburg – Obertraubling.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109assemblyline1.jpg

Messerschmitt Bf 109 – assembly line in Regensburg


And don’t worry – these snapshots are just the beginning! After all these years they surely do deserve a proper public presentation.

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :)

[Panzerknacker]

Very good ones. ;)

Is worth to mention that the F-0 and F-1 had some structural troubles with his tail section.

[Librarian]

It is worth to mention that the F-0 and F-1 had some structural troubles with his tail section.

You mean when three pre-production F-series machines were lost? Yes, I know for that problem, but as far as I know troubles with the Bf 109 tail-buffeting were registered even before, more precisely in 1938, when the Jagdgruppe J-88 in Spain was re-equipped with the Bf 109B fighters. Although this problem was resolved with a new cantilevered tail design that was introduced on a Bf 109 E fighter type, generally less known fact is that during the process of continuous improvement of the Bf 109 model some pure engineering pretermissions unfortunately occurred, mainly due to unprecedented scurry toward previously neglected, for true mass-production essentially important aluminum alloy profile sheets, rivets and screws standardization (for example, shrinkage from 20 different light alloy sheet types to only 7, and curtailment from 340 different types of screws to only 156) – that was suddenly highly emphasized by Luftwaffe HQ, and mercilessly requested upon the Bf engineering team.

Subsequent examinations, however, revealed the fact that all the screws on the tail assembly/fuselage joint were torn out due to the tremendous vibrations. Suspicion fell on the tail spar, since the rivets between the ribs and the elevators were all loose, missing or broken. Prolonged investigations discovered that when the bracing struts of the Bf109E tail assembly were omitted on the Bf 109F and stronger but less ribbing used, the proportion of the rigidity to the strength of the member was altered too. The result was that the tailplane had a frequency of oscillation which, at certain engine revolutions, was overlapped by the engine, and the resultant phase-consonance vibrations tore out the tail spars. This problem was healed by fitting additional reinforcing plates in the tailplane.

But let’s continue our sightseeing tour of well known Bf 109 production facilities. As we all know, Bf109Es were coming off the production lines in early 1939, with the bulk of the production being carried out by Erla Werke and Fieseler, who built nearly 1400 aircraft in 1939.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109assemblylineRegensburg.jpg

Bf 109 raw-fuselage montage, Regensburg-Obertraubling

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-Erlawerke.jpg

Bf 109 E production line, Erla Maschinenwerke, Leipzig-Mockau

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-finalization.jpg

Almost completely finished airplanes are moved by portal derrick, due to lack of production space in the assembly hall - Erla Maschinenwerke, Leipzig-Mockau

In our next chapter we will analyze another highly important part of the Bf 109 story – actual production of the Daimler-Benz DB 601 engine.

Till then – all the best! :)

[Panzerknacker]

Subsequent examinations, however, revealed the fact that all the screws on the tail assembly/fuselage joint were torn out due to the tremendous vibrations. Suspicion fell on the tail spar, since the rivets between the ribs and the elevators were all loose, missing or broken. Prolonged investigations discovered that when the bracing struts of the Bf109E tail assembly were omitted on the Bf 109F and stronger but less ribbing used, the proportion of the rigidity to the strength of the member was altered too. The result was that the tailplane had a frequency of oscillation which, at certain engine revolutions, was overlapped by the engine, and the resultant phase-consonance vibrations tore out the tail spars. This problem was healed by fitting additional reinforcing plates in the tailplane.

A image of the early serie F tail reinforcements.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4066/stiffql4.jpg


From: BF-109 in action Part II, Squadron Signal.

[Major Walter Schmidt]

I like the Me 109 Zwilling.Wouldhave been a nice fighter-bomber probably.
http://www.luft46.com/mess/3vm109z.jpg

[Dallas]

IIRC, Galland perferred the E model (Emil), I vote for the E model.

[Panzerknacker]

Galland prefered that Model for the armament, but actually I believe that his favorite was one modified Ferdinand with extra 13 guns in the cowling.

That variant was unique, no other Bf-109F was made with 13 mm Mgs.

[B-17engineer]

I like the G-10.......

[Clave]

'E' for me... but then again I have not got round to 'G' yet...

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-m/Bf109E4_1_JG3_Site.jpg

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-m/Bf109E4_2_JG77_Site.jpg

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-m/Bf109E4_3_NJG1_Site.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Nice profiles there Clave, the Emil was important, but I think a little clumsy for dogfights.

[Clave]

Yeah, I think it was quite nippy, but the Spitfire and Hurricane were better at turning inside..

[Panzerknacker]

Yeap, and that is why the Messerschmitts aces rarely played the doghtfight, they prefered the "boom and zoom" tactic.

A curiosity, the Me-109 V31 with belly radiator and wide undercarriage a test aircraft for the Me-309.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3530/bf109v31002swfotowr6.jpg



http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8863/bf109v31003swfotoup9.jpg

[Librarian]

After a highly demanding and utterly draining business weak, the best art of mental relaxation I was able to find was a couple of old snapshots, devoted to our dearly beloved, good old 109. So here they are:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G-1944.jpg

Bf 109 G, September 1944 – unknown location

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109F-1941.jpg

Camouflaged Bf 109 F somewhere in the Soviet Union – August, 1941

In the meantime, honorable ladies and gentlemen, as always – all the best! ;)

[wt259]

The G-10. Just cuz.....

[kiwimac]

Which variants did Hartmann fly?

[flamethrowerguy]

Which variants did Hartmann fly?

He did his very first solo flight on a Bf 109 D.
In their book "The blond knight of Germany" Toliver and Constable listed the following variants he flew during the war:
Bf 109 B,C,D,E,F,G-6, G-7 (?), G-10, G-14, H-16, K-4

[kiwimac]

I hadn't realised he had flown the 'B' and 'C' series BF-109s. Thank you Flamethrowerguy!

[Sergej]

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5017/dc6619b92ceffd0.jpg

Franz von Werra in a Bf-109E from II./JG 3. - June, 1940

[Panzerknacker]

Very nice pic. The little pet must be problematic after some years ;)

[Librarian]

Well, honorable ladies and gentlemen, after many days, we have here another couple of photos dedicated to our distinguished machine:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G-HUAF-1.jpg

Pre take-off preparations of the Bf 109 G-6, Royal Hungarian Air Force – 1944

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G-HUAF-2.jpg

Bumpy field-airport taxiing for takeoff, RHUAF, unidentified location – 1944

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :)

[kamehouse]

I am reading "Barbarossa-the air battle:July-December 1941" by Christer Bergstrom and there are lots of pictures of the Bf 109 with German and Rumanian markings.Many pictures of Russian planes also.Even Hurricanes from the RAF that fought in the far north.
If any of you are intrested.

[Librarian]

Of course, my dear Mr. Kamehouse! We are interested for everything connected with our dearly beloved birdie. Moreover, if those photos are in color, our delight and our appreciation will be eternal! :D

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Startbereit.jpg

Startbereit! – Bf 109 E-3/JG 2 - France, 1940

Therefore, please – feel free and post those previously unseen photos in this topic whenever you wish. ;)

[Panzerknacker]

Funny one, Bf 109f-4.

http://i33.tinypic.com/308y2b9.jpg

[kamehouse]

There are a few in colour.A couple of Do 17z and Ju-87,quite a few of Ju-88 and only one of the Bf-109 E with Rumanian markings.
I don't have a scanner unfortunately.

[Flammpanzer]

Nice metal-model of my favourite version, the KURFÜRST ... scale is 1-72.

... cheers :D

Jens

[Panzerknacker]

Nice model, in anoyying to realize how few are the photos of this variant in action.


There are a few in colour.A couple of Do 17z and Ju-87,quite a few of Ju-88 and only one of the Bf-109 E with Rumanian markings.
I don't have a scanner unfortunately


Some Romanian Messers.

BF-109G-2

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/images/profile_romanian_10.jpg


Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3 Grupul 7 Summer 1941


http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/images/profile_romanian_03.jpg

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/images/profile_romanian_04a.jpg




Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 Grupul 9 cpt.av. Constantin Cantacuzino
August 1944

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/images/profile_romanian_07.jpg

[Librarian]

After many days, honorable ladies and gentlemen, I was able to find some less known photos connected with the Yugoslav Bf 103 E – 3s:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-RYAF.jpg

Bf 109 E-3 of the RYAF - unknown auxiliary field-airport during maneuvers in 1940

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-RYAF2.jpg

Official identification photo of the Yugoslav Bf 109 E-3 (Yugoslav designation: L 7), 1940

I think that I will be able to find some additional snapshots connected with this type as well.

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Uyraell]

Forgive if this seems a little "geek-ish" but the fact is the top speed of the G-series 109 was determined by the powerplant fitted, which could be anything from the DB603 LaIi, LA 1, 2, or 3; through to the DB605 DCM, DSM, ASM, ACSM, ASCMi, which was the whole point of the late G-series, motor and cannon interchange-ability.
Thus, a top speed range from approx 620 through to 680kmh is derived.
To answer the thread question asked though : the 109 Zwilling. Two 109F2 (some sources say F4) fuselages on a common mainplane with a common elevator.
Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Well, after an exhausting library week, I think that I have something really interesting for this thread, honorable ladies and gentlemen. While doing some photo-research for another thread in our forum, I stumbled upon some thrilling snapshots coupled with the notorious film "Battle of Britain" (directed by Mr.Guy Hamilton), already noted for the excellence in reconstruction of historical events.

The contemporary documentary photographer does not think of photography as an art form, or his photograph as an art object. But every so often in this medium - as in any creative medium - some of the practitioners are genuine artists, and their work is not only a document, but also a pure art.

In this case, which undoubtedly is art, outstanding factuality was a by-product of a serious, well-prepared job, soundly and lovingly done. Outstanding still-coverage in promoting major film productions actually depicted the face of actual war – an assignment often nearly as dangerous.

This superb action photograph of a simulated WW II dogfight over England, with Hispano Aviacion HA-1112 Bouchon altered to look like the Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-3 was taken by 27 year old Mr. David James, and without any doubt it represents one of the most breathtaking aerial sequences in the whole history of the motion picture industry:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ha1112Buchon-BattleofBritain.jpg

HA-1112 M1L Buchon disguised as the Bf 109 E-3, "Battle of Britain" - 1969

In an interview with "Photography" magazine back there in 1970, Mr. James described some of the headaches he faced in getting still coverage: "During a flight you only have one chance to get a dramatic shot. Just for a split second the combat planes hurl themselves into a shape which you recognize as a picture – miss and that is your day’s work down the drain. Sometimes we flew so close to the other aeroplanes that I could only fit a whole one into my viewfinder by using a wide angle. Jeff Hawke, the pilot of the B 25 camera plane, was marvelous at giving me what I wanted in the way of close-ups. I would say to him: 'nearer Jeff, a bit nearer… down a bit… hold it… just a shade nearer!' What co-operation! I suppose we were taking risks at the time, but you would never have thought it with such an unflappable character as Jeff Hawke at the controls, although the lack of space made very difficult for all of us."

Indeed, sometimes bravery is what creates good snapshots. Another interesting point about this really excellent one is that although the Spitfire pilots were English, the Messerschmitts in this "battle" were being flown by Spaniards. "Connie" Edwards, a Colonel in the Confederate Air Force, was one of four Confederates to fly some of the Messerschmitts used in the film. Furthermore – he bought a dozen of 109s from the film company after filming had finished, and they were kept on his ranch in Texas.

Well, it seems to me that we were not as lucky as he was… ;)

[Uyraell]

Absolutely beautiful picture, Librarian! I actually have the book of the making of the BoB film. NOT the novelisation of the movie, but the actual highlights of the day-to-day events in making the film. If memory serves, the author was Basil Collier.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Thank you very much, my dear Mr. Uyraell. I’m glad that we both do share sincere appreciation toward that marvelous film, which won worldwide respect for the historically accurate status of an art. It was also an job of film-making of the first magnitude, and still is a piece of motion picture narration capable to take one’s breath away even today – a dramatic moment of aerial fighting, superbly and realistically recreated. :)

One of the most moving moments ever captured on the film frame - directly connected with this outstanding movie - was a sequence when for the first time since 1940 Lord Dowding, former Commander-in-Chief of the RAF Fighter Command, visited one of his old airfields at Debden (Essex), to watch some of the filming. To commemorate his visit, RAF pilots in the Spitfires and Spanish and American pilots in the Messerschmitts have made an illustrious fly-past. Lord, what a moment that was! I have to admit that I was sincerely touched and remained with a tear in my eye…

Perhaps that outstanding color snapshot is not suitable for this specific thread, but I think that we will be able to find some appropriate allocation for it here on our Forum… ;)

In the meantime, here is another one directly connected with our Special Guest Star – the Bf 109. This snapshot was printed in the notorious Hungarian wartime periodical "Magyar Szárnyak" (Hungarian Wings) No. 12 – June 1942 (p. 5). Exact location of filming - alas! - was not mentioned:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109-SovietUnion1942.jpg

"Bf 109 - the most modern Messerschmitt machine on the Soviet Front" (probably the Caucasian sector of the Eastern Front)

Well, that’s all for today. In the meantime, as always – all the best! :D

[kuuk]

One of my favorite books is called:" Battle of Britain" the making of a film.
The book was copyrighted in 1969, with the writer being Leonard Mosley.

One of the illustrations is of a "Messerschmitt" in a 87degree turn, closely chased by a Spitfire. In one of the chapters it describes a visit on the set, in his personal Bonanza, by none other than (Former General) Adolf Galland. He took a flight in a two-seater with the head of the Spanish Luftwaffe, er, Airforce. In conclusion of the flight Galland made his famous inverted very low pass to show that he still had in those days (1968).

[Uyraell]

One of my favorite books is called:" Battle of Britain" the making of a film.
The book was copyrighted in 1969, with the writer being Leonard Mosley.

One of the illustrations is of a "Messerschmidt" in a 87degree turn, closely chased by a Spitfire. In one of the chapters it describes a visit on the set, in his personal Bonanza, by none other than (Former General) Adolf Galland. He took a flight in a two-seater with the head of the Spanish Luftwaffe, er, Airforce. In conclusion of the flight Galland made his famous inverted very low pass to show that he still had in those days (1968).

You know, you might just have the same book I do.
Memory was uncertain regarding Collier as the author.
Have not laid eyes on said book in many long moons, no real surprise when I have a few hundred, the current lot replacing but few of the earlier and now dispersed collection.
And yes, the illustration you refer is a stunner.
Many Thanks for prompting an aging memory:) (A HighSchool buddy had actually met Galland, some years later).
Regards, Uyraell.

[Uyraell]

Thank you very much, my dear Mr. Uyraell. I’m glad that we both do share sincere appreciation toward that marvelous film, which won worldwide respect for the historically accurate status of an art. It was also an job of film-making of the first magnitude, and still is a piece of motion picture narration capable to take one’s breath away even today – a dramatic moment of aerial fighting, superbly and realistically recreated. :)

One of the most moving moments ever captured on the film frame - directly connected with this outstanding movie - was a sequence when for the first time since 1940 Lord Dowding, former Commander-in-Chief of the RAF Fighter Command, visited one of his old airfields at Debden (Essex), to watch some of the filming. To commemorate his visit, RAF pilots in the Spitfires and Spanish and American pilots in the Messerschmitts have made an illustrious fly-past. Lord, what a moment that was! I have to admit that I was sincerely touched and remained with a tear in my eye…

Perhaps that outstanding color snapshot is not suitable for this specific thread, but I think that we will be able to find some appropriate allocation for it here on our Forum… ;)

In the meantime, here is another one directly connected with our Special Guest Star – the Bf 109. This snapshot was printed in the notorious Hungarian wartime periodical "Magyar Szárnyak" (Hungarian Wings) No. 12 – June 1942 (p. 5). Exact location of filming - alas! - was not mentioned:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109-SovietUnion1942.jpg

"Bf 109 - the most modern Messerschmitt machine on the Soviet Front" (probably the Caucasian sector of the Eastern Front)

Well, that’s all for today. In the meantime, as always – all the best! :D

Many Thanks for another gorgeous pic, Librarian.
The HighSchool (College, for those who speak British) friend who had met him, reports Galland as having said the 109F4 was by far the most pleasant variant to fly, and that by comparison, the Griffon engined 109J as used in the film was "tolerably good, better at least than the G4, even if harder to look at."

Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Oh, yes - those Gentlemen of the Old School were truly outstanding personalities indeed. I remember also an excellent color snapshot taken by Mr. Larry Ellis, which was really unique. As you know, ex-enemies in the air over England in 1940 - Wing Commander Robert Stanford-Tuck and General Adolf Galland - later became great friends. Mr. Stanford-Tuck in those times (late sixties) was a mushroom farmer at Eastry in Kent, while Galland was an aviation consultant and businessman. They both shared a great love of hunting, and it was at Eastry in that same year (1968) when Mr. Ellis photographed them on one of their hunting expeditions. That was indeed an delightful example that deep friendship can be realized without selling out one’s personal integrity. In those times, they were technical advisors on both British and German sides of the "Battle of Britain" film.

And now back to our beloved metal birdie. The very real idealism toward the Bf 109 F-4 variant, felt so intensely by numerous fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe, surely deserves some manifestations of documentary compassion. Therefore, here is another pretty unknown snapshot of the Bf 109 F-4, this time in Hungarian colors, taken somewhere on the Eastern Front:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109F-RHUAF1943.jpg

Ammunition re-supply of the Bf 109 F-4, RHUAF – July, 1943 (photo taken by Kádar Gyula)

Enjoy! ;)

[Sergej]

Thank you a lot for this amazing pictures Librarian!
After a long time of inactivity, I want to offer you this
little gift. Nothing spectacular, but I tried my best. :)

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5898/bf109g14da6.png

[Uyraell]

Oh, yes - those Gentlemen of the Old School were truly outstanding personalities indeed. I remember also an excellent color snapshot taken by Mr. Larry Ellis, which was really unique. As you know, ex-enemies in the air over England in 1940 - Wing Commander Robert Stanford-Tuck and General Adolf Galland - later became great friends. Mr. Stanford-Tuck in those times (late sixties) was a mushroom farmer at Eastry in Kent, while Galland was an aviation consultant and businessman. They both shared a great love of hunting, and it was at Eastry in that same year (1968) when Mr. Ellis photographed them on one of their hunting expeditions. That was indeed an delightful example that deep friendship can be realized without selling out one’s personal integrity. In those times, they were technical advisors on both British and German sides of the "Battle of Britain" film.

And now back to our beloved metal birdie. The very real idealism toward the Bf 109 F-4 variant, felt so intensely by numerous fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe, surely deserves some manifestations of documentary compassion. Therefore, here is another pretty unknown snapshot of the Bf 109 F-4, this time in Hungarian colors, taken somewhere on the Eastern Front:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109F-RHUAF1943.jpg

Ammunition re-supply of the Bf 109 F-4, RHUAF – July, 1943 (photo taken by Kádar Gyula)

Enjoy! ;)

Pardon my ignorance, but what in 7 Thunders is an AGO/Feisler engine mount doing in an F4 that was made in either Regensburg or Augsberg?.
At least, these old eyes are seeing the picture thus, `tis quite a curiosity.
Cheers, and warm Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Oh, not at all, my dear Mr. Sergej. The pleasure was mine. As always, you may rest assured that I shall do my best to find some additional photos. On account of the recent shortage of my free hours, I think that it will take a couple of weeks to execute this officially given guarantee. However, I hope that this slight delay will cause you no inconvenience. ;)

Hoping soon to be favored with your esteemed company, as well as with excellent materials provided by you, we are all awaiting the favor of your early reply. :)

Pardon my ignorance, but what in 7 Thunders is an AGO/Feisler engine mount doing in an F4 that was made in either Regensburg or Augsberg?.
At least, these old eyes are seeing the picture thus, `tis quite a curiosity.
Cheers, and warm Regards, Uyraell.

Oh, that’s not the only curiosity you will be able to see here, my dear Mr. Uyraell… For example - how about the Hungarian Bf 109 F-4 equipped with improvised Jabo bomb – rack (no, no - not the standardized F-4/R1 variant)? Or perhaps some… well, pretty peculiar non-German weapons fitted at the Bf 109 E 4? Unbeliveably, but they existed as well. And please, don’t worry - they will be presented here as well, just give me some more time...

After all, perhaps Mr. Kádar was mistaken… Or perhaps devoted and self-sacrificing Hungarian mechanics performed their demanding duties in accordance with the old proverb "Necessity is the mother of invention?" Who knows… That’s why we are here to discuss those knotty issues, my dear Mr. Uyraell. :)

In the meantime, here is another personal gift for you – without any doubt, this photo actually was taken in 1942, although it was printed in the previously mentioned renowned Hungarian wartime magazine in April of 1943. I’m sure that you are recognizing that young fellow which is sitting on the side of that opened Bf 109 F-4 Trop canopy, while wearing the Luftwaffe Schieffchen:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/H-JMarseille-1.jpg

Bf 109 F4 Trop, "Yellow 14" - W.Nr. 8693, 3./JG 27

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :D

[Uyraell]

Oh, not at all, my dear Mr. Sergej. The pleasure was mine. As always, you may rest assured that I shall do my best to find some additional photos. On account of the recent shortage of my free hours, I think that it will take a couple of weeks to execute this officially given guarantee. However, I hope that this slight delay will cause you no inconvenience. ;)

Hoping soon to be favored with your esteemed company, as well as with excellent materials provided by you, we are all awaiting the favor of your early reply. :)



Oh, that’s not the only curiosity you will be able to see here, my dear Mr. Uyraell… For example - how about the Hungarian Bf 109 F-4 equipped with improvised Jabo bomb – rack (no, no - not the standardized F-4/R1 variant)? Or perhaps some… well, pretty peculiar non-German weapons fitted at the Bf 109 E 4? Unbeliveably, but they existed as well. And please, don’t worry - they will be presented here as well, just give me some more time...

After all, perhaps Mr. Kádar was mistaken… Or perhaps devoted and self-sacrificing Hungarian mechanics performed their demanding duties in accordance with the old proverb "Necessity is the mother of invention?" Who knows… That’s why we are here to discuss those knotty issues, my dear Mr. Uyraell. :)

In the meantime, here is another personal gift for you – without any doubt, this photo actually was taken in 1942, although it was printed in the previously mentioned renowned Hungarian wartime magazine in April of 1943. I’m sure that you are recognizing that young fellow which is sitting on the side of that opened Bf 109 F-4 Trop canopy, while wearing the Luftwaffe Schieffchen:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/H-JMarseille-1.jpg

Bf 109 F4 Trop, "Yellow 14" - W.Nr. 8693, 3./JG 27

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :D
You, know, Librarian, it's taken me days to rack the old noggin into some semblance of awareness...... I do believe this is Douglas Bader, the day he asked to sit in the cockpit of a 109, and Galland, to the shock of his fellow pilots, agreed ...... subject to a Sidearm being held on Bader as he sat in the 109.

Now, I admit, in age one's memory may at times slip a cog or two, and if this is the case, then I apologise aforehand. However, one excerpt comes into mind, and I cite Bader, if not quote verbatim:"As I was getting out of the machine, someone took a photograph".
This may well be that same picture.

Warm Regards, Uyraell.

[kuuk]

I believe the picture to be of Hans Joachim Marseille. One of his planes was 8693 with the number 14. By the way, the tail of that plane still exists in a museum in Germany. It was originally given to the family which in turn donated it to the museum.

[Uyraell]

I believe the picture to be of Hans Joachim Marseille. One of his planes was 8693 with the number 14. By the way, the tail of that plane still exists in a museum in Germany. It was originally given to the family which in turn donated it to the museum.

Thank you kuuk, As I said, I was not certain, so am glad to know the info you give.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Apologizing for the trouble occasioned, my dear Mr. Uyrael, I deeply regret my objective inability to tell you anything more concerning this intriguing subject prior to now. Simply, I was obliged to make an extended official journey through numerous governmental institutions, acquiring necessary approvals for vital funding for our brand-new, digitalized Library-storage. :roll:

However, I would like to add that Mr. Kuuk was absolutely right – the Bf 109 F-4 Trop W.Nr. 8693 indeed was flown by possibly the greatest fighter pilot of the WW2, Senior Lieutenant Hans-Joachim Marseille.

As a special tribute to this truly extraordinary talented fighter-pilot, I shall present here some lesser known photos, which were taken during his visit to the Messerschmitt factory while on leave in July of 1942. Here they are:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/H-JMarseille-2.jpg

Captain Hans Joachim Marseille is tying his scarf before his flight in a new Messerschmitt machine – Augsburg, July 1942

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/H-JMarseille-3.jpg

Captain Hans Joachim Marseille is carefully observing the flight of a new Messerschmitt fighter plane while being accompanied by Messerschmitt factory test pilot, Mr. Fritz Wendel – Augsburg, July 1942

And now back to our main them in this thread. Fortunately, I was able to find some additional pictures of the Bf 109 in Hungarian service.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G-RHUAF-2.jpg

Riadóstart (Alarmstart)- Bf 109 G-6, 101. Vadászrepülő ezred (101st Fighter Group), June 1944

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BF109-RHUAF-5.jpg

"Brave fighters are defending the capital of Hungary" - Bf 109 G-6, RHUAF – June 1944

I am still doing some research within those old magazines, therefore additional photo-results are highly probable.

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Uyraell]

Apologizing for the trouble occasioned, my dear Mr. Uyrael, I deeply regret my objective inability to tell you anything more concerning this intriguing subject prior to now. Simply, I was obliged to make an extended official journey through numerous governmental institutions, acquiring necessary approvals for vital funding for our brand-new, digitalized Library-storage. :roll:

However, I would like to add that Mr. Kuuk was absolutely right – the Bf 109 F-4 Trop W.Nr. 8693 indeed was flown by possibly the greatest fighter pilot of the WW2, Senior Lieutenant Hans-Joachim Marseille.

As a special tribute to this truly extraordinary talented fighter-pilot, I shall present here some lesser known photos, which were taken during his visit to the Messerschmitt factory while on leave in July of 1942. Here they are:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/H-JMarseille-2.jpg

Captain Hans Joachim Marseille is tying his scarf before his flight in a new Messerschmitt machine – Augsburg, July 1942

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/H-JMarseille-3.jpg

Captain Hans Joachim Marseille is carefully observing the flight of a new Messerschmitt fighter plane while being accompanied by Messerschmitt factory test pilot, Mr. Fritz Wendel – Augsburg, July 1942

And now back to our main them in this thread. Fortunately, I was able to find some additional pictures of the Bf 109 in Hungarian service.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G-RHUAF-2.jpg

Riadóstart (Alarmstart)- Bf 109 G-6, 101. Vadászrepülő ezred (101st Fighter Group), June 1944

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BF109-RHUAF-5.jpg

"Brave fighters are defending the capital of Hungary" - Bf 109 G-6, RHUAF – June 1944

I am still doing some research within those old magazines, therefore additional photo-results are highly probable.

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)


Riadóstart (Alarmstart)- Bf 109 G-6, 101. Vadászrepülő ezred (101st Fighter Group), June 1944

Very interesting pic. Mod3 supercharger intake above half shrouded exhausts.
As I recall that was a late-model introduction, and it is indeed interesting to see same in Hungarian service. Most sources mention the 1944 "exports" without going to great detail.
Yet again Librarian, you produce wonders from the aether:)

Might add : Rare pic of Wendel himself. Seen only very few of him over the years. That man is a thread, himself.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Panzerknacker]

Nice video of Gallands special F variant with 20mm guns in the wings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xj7Bd8BTMY

[Uyraell]

Nice video of Gallands special F variant with 20mm guns in the wings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xj7Bd8BTMY
Muchas Gracias mi amigo:)
Very pleasing to see that.
Always been interested in that Galland view, of "better in the wings".

Regardsm Uyraell.

[Adrian Wainer]

http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/S199/boxart.jpg Vorsprung Durch Technik
http://www.swannysmodels.com/S199.html

My favourite, in reality, probably of the worst versions of the Me Bf 109 to fly but good enough to do the job in the circumstances, which is all that counts.

Hals Und Beinbruch
Adrian Wainer

[Uyraell]

http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/S199/boxart.jpg Vorsprung Durch Technik
http://www.swannysmodels.com/S199.html

My favourite, in reality, probably of the worst versions of the Me Bf 109 to fly but good enough to do the job in the circumstances, which is all that counts.

Hals Und Beinbruch
Adrian Wainer
It's pilots hated it.
How is it you deliberately choose the worst examples, the pilot-killers in aircraft?
Your choices are incomprehensible, unless one views them as being from a passive-aggressive pacifist standpoint, in which case why are you on this forum at all unless as a troll, as is rapidly becoming my view of you.

Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Very frequently certain powerful snapshots are capable to bring together thousands of the thoughts able to change the hearts and minds of mankind, honorable ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps only through the photographic image can a widespread compassion for the human values be stated so instantly and with such a force. And one of those highly emotional, powerful photographs, without any doubt, is the next one, deeply connected with the main theme of this thread, which was taken back in 1969 by Mr. Robert Penn.

For the first time since 1940, Lord Dowding, former Commander-in-Chief of the R.A.F. Fighter command, visited one of his old airfields at Debden (Essex), to watch some of the filming of the "The Battle of Britain". To commemorate his visit, R.A.F. pilots in the Spitfires and Spanish and American pilots in the Messerschmitt-Hispano Ha-1112 Bouchons put on a demonstration fly-past:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/LordDowdingandBf109.jpg

A moment of pure emotion – soaring above, historic fighters are paying stirring tribute to the genuine WW2 hero, Air Chief Marshal Lord Dowding

Perhaps only the mood-provoking quality of Longfellow’s poetry is capable to convey the emotions deeply embedded in this picture, a truly sincere tribute to an unpretentious man, but an extraordinary human being.

Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us
Footprints on the sand of time.

Rest in Peace, Sir.

[Panzerknacker]

Nice picture Lib, however the Buchon is kind of anoyying , it simply cannot look like a Messerschmitt to me.

[Librarian]

Nevertheless, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, I think that if I had had a minor quantity of cash, as well as a significantly better eyesight, I should have had some fun with that old Spanish metal birdie. :D

You see, if I had owned one I would have achieved some measure of worldly satisfaction in my life, some justification for having been around. :cool:

Sometimes I wonder what has become of the Modern Generation of rich men worthy of the name of the possession of wealth in our world. Once upon a time Leland Stanford, for example, was overjoyed to learn that the endowment of Harvard University at the time was only $ 25.000.000, so that he too could endow a university in California. The Vanderbilts thought nothing of building three or four entire Fifth Avenue blocks filled with French châteaux. Alternatively Ed Stotesbury, who announced that gold plumbing on his private cars was an economy issue, because it saved polishing. Where, for Heavens sake, are the August Belmonts, such as the first of that name, who spent an estimated $ 20.000.000 in ostentatious luxury in his New York home for the purpose of inducing apoplexy – as eventually it did! – in his avaricious neighbor James Lenox? Where is even "Diamond Jim" Brady, who once arrived at Saratoga for the racing season in a private Pullman with solid silver trucks and brake rigging, thirty five Japanese houseboys, and a gold-plated lady’s bicycle belonging to Lillian Russell? Not even to mention Howard Hughes, who produced highly intriguing machines for his personal use while designing a seamless push-up bra for his dearly beloved sport-shirt girl Jane Russell.

Unlike today, in those ancient times there were people who – one way or another! – had some real fun for their money, a laugh or so out of every million bucks they acquired. True, their pleasures were various: race horses, the endowment of universities, public bequests of Titians and Rembrandts, seagoing yachts, or first folios of Shakespeare. Admirable or deplorable, at least they had character and the best, not the worst, that money could buy like nowadays... :(

However, enough with this empty philosophy. We have our distinct responsibilities in this thread. Therefore, here is another less known photo of our special metal guest star:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G6-HUAF1944.jpg

Bf 109 Ga 6 – RHUAF, Veszprem, 1944

I really do hope that you like that "classicistic" Messer shape. ;)

[Panzerknacker]

really do hope that you like that "classicistic" Messer shape


I do, the MG 131E covers are somewhat ugly though, the better looking variants are the clean lined F and late "G".

[Librarian]

Oh, yet again that unfair Esthetik über alles approach, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker… I really don’t know why the general population always is somehow directly inclined toward those late G models, although early examples, like G-4, actually were much more esthetically comparable with that beauty - champion of the Bf 109 family – our dearly beloved "Fritz". :)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109Ga4.jpg

An early Bf 109 Ga 4 (Ga = Ausland, foreign country) manufactured by Magyar Waggon és Gépgyár (MWG) Győr

Furthermore, early Gs actually possessed some undeniable additional qualities as well. For example, this early Bf 109 G-4 produced in Győr (Hungary) for the Luftwaffe, possessed a more powerful DB 605, had no bulges in front of the cockpit caused by the larger MG 131 machine guns which added further weight and drag, and those well-known large bulges on top of wings were absent as well (those old 650 x 150 mm wheels initially still were used in production).

Yes, tail wheel was indeed larger (350 x 135 mm instead of 290 x 110 mm) and, alas, non-retractable, but retracting mechanism was absent as well thus decreasing the weight of the aircraft. New oil radiator Behr Fo 870 undeniably was a little bit more bulky, and new engine cooling scoops caused some drag too, but if truth is to be said, the cooling capacity was significantly increased and that new VDM-9-12087 propeller with the same old diameter, but with wider blades was completely able to compensate that previously mentioned aerodynamic distortion.

Therefore please, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker – take a test flight. I am assuring you that you will not be disappointed with this old birdie!

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Panzerknacker]

Oh, yet again that unfair Esthetik über alles


Well my mottto was "ordnung über alles" in happy times in wich I was moderator, since I am no longer I had to found others, the your sound good. Thank for the pictures and for explaining the stories behind them.

[Librarian]

Aber warum so niedergeschlagen, meine liebe Herr Panzerknacker? :(

Please, remember this:

Honor and shame from no condition rise;
Act well your part: there all the honor lies.

Through the pages of this thread, we have invited people to new adventures in the study of history, of technological development and human achievement. If only couple of future citizens in our age gain a clearer understanding and a greater appreciation of our common historical heritage through the study of this thread, we shall feel well rewarded. :)

Therefore, cheer up, my dear Mr. Panzerkancker, observe and enjoy the evolution of a threateningly functional, but potently symbolic industrial beauty, a masterly combination of visual flair and mechanical ingenuity, which, after all, demonstrated ability of human intellect to rise above the darkness of the animal part of human character.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109G-14RHUAF.jpg

Bf 109 G-14 RHUAF

And if you do need some poetic inspiration for your contemplation, here are some highly suitable rhymes for you:

Kerzengrad steig ich zum Himmel, flieg’ ich zur Sonn’ direkt.
Unter mir auf das Gewimmel, da pfeif’ ich mit Respekt.

Wenn wir dann so oben schweben, mein Freund das ist ein Leben!
Da fühl ich mich wie ein junger Gott, Kreuz Himmeldonnerwetter sapperlot!

In der Luft gibt’s keine Räuber, kein Bezirksgericht,
und auch keine alten Weiber sieht man oben nicht.

A little bit more arranged variant is available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TApHmRaVK1s

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Panzerknacker]

Therefore, cheer up, my dear Mr. Panzerkancker, observe and enjoy the evolution of a threateningly functional, but potently symbolic industrial beauty, a masterly combination of visual flair and mechanical ingenuity, which, after all, demonstrated ability of human intellect to rise above the darkness of the animal part of human character.

Hehe, you are a poet Lib.

[Librarian]

Oh, thank you very much, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. You know, as Wordsworth already stated:

Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of poweful feelings:
It takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquility.

However, real poetry for us implicates some color snapshots. And think that I have something colorful and perfectly suitable for this thread, but I don’t know exactly where that beautiful color snapshot really is. Therefore I ask you to excuse this unavoidable deleay which, I hope, will not put you to any inconvenience. :)

Nevertheless, here is a technical drawing of the Bf 109 F from 1944:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109F-Blueprint.jpg

Bf 109-F

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Witbaas]

There is just something about all the "E" versions that make them in a class of it's own! Yes, I agree with librarian..they are legendary!!!

[Librarian]

In that case, my dear Mr. Witbaas, here is a magnificent piece of modern digital art, which is completely devoted to the object of our mutual fondness:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/DolfoGallandbyAndersLejczak.jpg

Dolfo Galland - Anders Leyczak 2009.

Additional truly dazzling works of digital art, completed by this creator of radiant artistic testaments of the sensuous technical beauty, are gathered together here:

http://www.colacola.se/default.htm

In the meantime we remain at your service. :)

[windrider]

Here's a little video of a restored G-6.
I just LOVE that engine sound !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO9mEv5Ve54

enjoy !

[Uyraell]

Albeit the beasty has a bad reputation, I am still somewhat fond of the Me 209II V5 and V6.
Mainly because they are what the Me 109 should have evolved to in the first place, rather than expanding the late F models into the G models.
The 209II would thus have been a better gamble to shift production resources and facilities to, in say, August of '43.

Kind Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Well...it seems to me that nobody within the OKL ever considered a possibility for a renewed and significantly improved standard Bf 109 - backbone, made possible by substantial advances in the technology of laminar airflow, engine design, organic chemistry and weaponry, otherwise completely available in Germany, but never directly anticipated or, God forbid, used for practical purposes due to almost incredible technological blindness within the high circles of power in wartime Germany.

Absolutely nobody, my dear Mr. Uyraell, considered the streamlined, slightly aerodynamically improved, but otherwise completely standardized Bf 109 fuselage, adittionally equipped with:

- new, significantly modified laminar-flow wing, outfitted with some supplementary wing-mechanization (blown flapses, automatic slats, etc.);

- contra-rotating VDM four-blade propeller;

- new Daimler-Benz 605 LASCM two-staged compressor + MW 50 equipped engine with 11.5 : 1 compression ratio, based upon the brand-new Wintershall Lützkendorf iso-alkanic A-1 fuel (70 % 2-2-3-3-tetramethyl-buthane + 7,5 % monochlor naphtaline + 7,5 % ortoxilol + 14 % methanol + 1 % methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl) and capable to develop up to 2550 HP!

- main armament of 3 X 20 mm Mauser Mg 213

Basically, my dear Mr. Uyraell, a nasty little bird like this:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me-109-Preussenblitz.jpg

Bf 109 P Preußen-Blitz

(profile by Helmut Schmidt - http://flyingart.twoday.net)

But back there at Berlin our dearly beloved hero and Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe never gave even a slightest sign of consideration regarding these technological novelties… :rolleyes:

[Uyraell]

Well...it seems to me that nobody within the OKL ever considered a possibility for a renewed and significantly improved standard Bf 109 - backbone, made possible by substantial advances in the technology of laminar airflow, engine design, organic chemistry and weaponry, otherwise completely available in Germany, but never directly anticipated or, God forbid, used for practical purposes due to almost incredible technological blindness within the high circles of power in wartime Germany.

Absolutely nobody, my dear Mr. Uyraell, considered the streamlined, slightly aerodynamically improved, but otherwise completely standardized Bf 109 fuselage, adittionally equipped with:

- new, significantly modified laminar-flow wing, outfitted with some supplementary wing-mechanization (blown flapses, automatic slats, etc.);

- contra-rotating VDM four-blade propeller;

- new Daimler-Benz 605 LASCM two-staged compressor + MW 50 equipped engine with 11.5 : 1 compression ratio, based upon the brand-new Wintershall Lützkendorf iso-alkanic A-1 fuel (70 % 2-2-3-3-tetramethyl-buthane + 7,5 % monochlor naphtaline + 7,5 % ortoxilol + 14 % methanol + 1 % methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl) and capable to develop up to 2550 HP!

- main armament of 3 X 20 mm Mauser Mg 213

Basically, my dear Mr. Uyraell, a nasty little bird like this:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Me-109-Preussenblitz.jpg

Bf 109 P Preußen-Blitz

(profile by Helmut Schmidt - http://flyingart.twoday.net)

But back there at Berlin our dearly beloved hero and Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe never gave even a slightest sign of consideration regarding these technological novelties… :rolleyes:


My dear Mr. Librarian,
That is the sweetest-looking Bf109 I have ever seen!
A beautiful aircraft indeed, and doubtless suitably deadly.

My deep and profound Thanks to you for such a fine treasure!
I'd be most grateful for any extra information and data you'd be willing to share.

Again, Sir, Many Many Thanks! :)

Kindest Regards Librarian, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Oh, thank very much, my dear Mr. Uyraell. I am assuring you that nothing shall be neglected on my part to render myself fully worthy of your confidence. :)

May I call your attention to this historical snapshot connected with our old birdie:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-4Audembert-November1940.jpg

Maintenance of the Bf 109 E-4, JG 26 Schlageter – Audembert, November 1940.

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Uyraell]

My dear Mr. Librarian, your post #97 intrigues me.
Unless my eyes be mistaken, an E4-N in operational condition.
Why an "N" model? The propeller spinner lacks the hollow center for the engine-mounted cannon, which feature is common to only a few variants, notably the birdy depicted here, the H-o series, and (from memory) the F-o series.

And from S/JG26: part of Galland's unit. :) :D

Many Thanks, Librarian, a pleasure to see this pic. :)

Kind Regards, Uyraell.

[Librarian]

Hawkeyes, my dear Mr. Uyraell! My sincerest congratulations – yes, it is the Bf 109 E-4N. And guess who the pilot was? Yes, you are right – Dolfo Galland in person! Here is another snapshot of the same bird ready for take-off:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-4DolfoGalland.jpg

Bf 109 E-4/N W.Nr. 5819 – Audembert, November 1940

I hope that this one will complete your collection of early and rare Bf 109 models. :D

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

[Uyraell]

Hawkeyes, my dear Mr. Uyraell! My sincerest congratulations – yes, it is the Bf 109 E-4N. And guess who the pilot was? Yes, you are right – Dolfo Galland in person! Here is another snapshot of the same bird ready for take-off:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Bf109E-4DolfoGalland.jpg

Bf 109 E-4/N W.Nr. 5819 – Audembert, November 1940

I hope that this one will complete your collection of early and rare Bf 109 models. :D

In the meantime, as always – all the best! ;)

My Profound Thanks dear Mr Librarian !!!
The above 2 pics are one's I'd heard of but never seen.
Please see PM, and You shall know some background. ;)

Kindest Regards, Uyraell.

[CliSwe]

What a fascinating and informative thread. For the record, gentlemen, I liked all the "Gustav" line (purely on aesthetic grounds: I'm not a technical expert). Just a minor, nitpicking observation on Panzerknacker's early post (#41): "13mm MGs" had me thrown for a while. Did this version perhaps have extra MG-131 7.92mm MGs?

Cheers,
Cliff

[Uyraell]

What a fascinating and informative thread. For the record, gentlemen, I liked all the "Gustav" line (purely on aesthetic grounds: I'm not a technical expert). Just a minor, nitpicking observation on Panzerknacker's early post (#41): "13mm MGs" had me thrown for a while. Did this version perhaps have extra MG-131 7.92mm MGs?

Cheers,
Cliff

Despite the increased power output of the various engines powering the Gustav models, the G series were the worst-handling of all the 109's, until the advent of the Spanish and Czech versions, the Hispanos and CS's respectively, which were even worse in regard to handling. Yes, the G series were the fastest versions, but required an almost fully open throttle in the landing circuit, and were vicious, bordering on fatally malicious in both take-off an landing characteristics.
That said, I agree the G's look good, especially the G10.

As to the 13mm MG's, these replaced the 7.7mm Mgs as (in part) an interim measure pending the availability of the MG151/15mm Mg's. themselves an interim pending the availability of the MG 151/20 mm Mausers, which were replacing the MG FF which had lacked somewhat in performance terms. As a result, there were up to 4 different "acceptable" weapon sizes able to be fitted to almost any of the E or F series 109's.

Other, wiser heads than mine can go into more detail, but I hope this admittedly brief and simplified answer is of use to you. :)

Kind Regards, Uyraell.

[CliSwe]

...
As to the 13mm MG's, these replaced the 7.7mm Mgs as (in part) an interim measure pending the availability of the MG151/15mm Mg's. themselves an interim pending the availability of the MG 151/20 mm Mausers, which were replacing the MG FF which had lacked somewhat in performance terms. As a result, there were up to 4 different "acceptable" weapon sizes able to be fitted to almost any of the E or F series 109's.

Other, wiser heads than mine can go into more detail, but I hope this admittedly brief and simplified answer is of use to you. :)

Kind Regards, Uyraell.



Thanks for that, Uyraell. Goes to show that you never stop learning: I wasn't aware that 13mm MGs were even produced. (And my apologies to Panzerknacker for suggesting he might be mistaken.) As a matter of interest, would the German 13mm be able to chamber US Browning .50cal (12.7mm) rounds?

Cheers,
Cliff

[Uyraell]

Thanks for that, Uyraell. Goes to show that you never stop learning: I wasn't aware that 13mm MGs were even produced. (And my apologies to Panzerknacker for suggesting he might be mistaken.) As a matter of interest, would the German 13mm be able to chamber US Browning .50cal (12.7mm) rounds?

Cheers,
Cliff

You're most welcome, CliSwe.:)
I'm not certain the German 13mm weapon would have been able to chamber the US 12.7mm (.50 cal) rounds.
Tony Williams, or Panzerknacker will know more in detail, as that topic verges on arcanae that I have been remiss in studying.
Off the top of my head, I think there are enough significant differences in the respective cartridge cases to prevent such an experiment being successful.
I certainly would not want to try that experiment.

Addendum: I'm not exactly certain how this all fits together, so, the experts will have to fill in the blanks or correct me as necessary.
The 7.7mm becomes the 7.92mm. Later experiments produce both 10mm and 13mm weapons. The 13mm becomes the 15mm, which in turn becomes (briefly, I think) 17mm then 20mm, resulting in both 15mm and 20mm Mauser Mg151 versions. Meanwhile, the MGFF in 20mm is quietly retired off, because of feeding problems , slow rate of fire, and low velocity. However, that in turn creates shortages of the Mg151-20mm. This results in certain units, such as maritime recce and maritime strike, being outfitted with a variety of french weapons, rechambered for German ammunition.

Kindest Regards, Uyraell.