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Cervex
04-04-2007, 06:37 AM
Hi guys,
these are some italian weapons of ww2:

Beretta 1934

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/19341.jpg

Beretta 38/42

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/38421.jpg

Beretta 38 A

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/38a1.jpg

Breda 301

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/breda301.jpg

Cervex
04-04-2007, 06:41 AM
Breda 371

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/breda371.jpg

F.N.A.

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/fna.jpg

T.Z. 45

http://www.my-game.it/cervex/tz45.jpg

Cuts
04-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Welcome Cervex, I'm sure you'll enjoy the site.

I've worked on some of the WWII Italian MGs, and believe them to be impressive feats of engineering if not exactly ideal practial designs.



Breda 301
http://www.my-game.it/cervex/breda301.jpg

Breda 371
http://www.my-game.it/cervex/breda371.jpg
Typo for Modello 30 and Modello 37 ?

Mitragliatrice Breda calibro 6.5mm Modello 30
(renamed Fucile Mitragliatori Breda Modello 30 in 1935)

Advantages:
- Blowback operation: simple construction - just not in this case.
- Permanently mounted hinged mag: the magazine lips could be properly machined and these parts were therefore less liable to damage than those of detachable mags.
- Rapid change bbls.

Disadvantages:
- Blowback operation: hard extraction which was 'solved' by adding an oil pump to to lubricate the rds prior to chambering.
- Oil pump: attracted dust & sand to the rds & through the wpn. Produced higher chamber pressures.
- Permanently mounted hinged mag: a greatly reduced rate of fire and the possibility of the weapon being out of action should the mag body be damaged.
- Rapid change bbls: no handle with which to grip the hot bbl.
- No carry handle: the gun must be cradled or carried across the shoulders.
- No provision for SF mount.


Mitragliatrice Breda calibro 8 Modello 37

Once again this had no primary extraction so the trusty (?) oil pump was wheeled out with it's accompanying problems.
It fed from Hotchkiss-style trays. Some Grappa-gripped genius had the brainfart to design the action so that once the rds had been removed from the strips, chambered, fired and extracted, they were reinserted into the tray ! The gun numbers then had to strip this brass from the trays prior to reloading them.
The deskwallah theory was that the MG fired a higher pressured rd than the rifles, and the trays and brass would be backloaded. Perhaps the team were thinking of that when incorporating this energy-wasting system into the design, perhaps they were just sitting on their brains.
I don't think anybody here seriously believes that things run smoothly during wartime, confusion, pressure an enemy action combines to ensue that most systems will go pear-shaped sooner or later, these MG trays were often reloaded with rifle carts.

Despite these shortcomings, the Model 37 served throughout the war and earned a reputation for reliability...

...amongst those who had no experience with foreign MG designs.

Panzerknacker
04-04-2007, 06:59 PM
Welcome to our forum.


It fed from Hotchkiss-style trays. Some Grappa-gripped genius had the brainfart to design the action so that once the rds had been removed from the strips, chambered, fired and extracted, they were reinserted into the tray ! The gun numbers then had to strip this brass from the trays prior to reloading them.


Yeap, that characteristics was retained in the 20 mm automatic cannon, tidy but unnecessary complicated.

Panzerknacker
04-05-2007, 09:15 PM
More on the Breda 6,5 mm MG:


http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5674/14362133tl2.jpg



http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3703/10151639jj3.jpg


http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6845/67207254ic7.jpg


http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5844/33172876vg8.jpg

"The machinegun, history and development. Vol I" J.M Chinn.

Panzerknacker
04-11-2007, 10:32 PM
The little mortar "Brixia".


http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1820/brixiauu8.jpg

Man of Stoat
04-12-2007, 03:00 AM
The one constant in Italian arms design, particularly around the Second World War, is how crap their products are!

bwing55543
07-03-2007, 08:30 PM
Somethings never change. I think the Beretta 1934 bears an uncanny resemblance to Beretta's M9 (aka 92) pistol.

Also, the Italians, with their modern weapons, were unable to beat the Ethiopians, who had weapons dating back to the 1890s, without the help of the Germans. Sad.

HMS Deersound
12-11-2008, 07:36 AM
Hi All

Sorry if this post is in the wrong section!!

What type of flamethrowers did Italian infantry use in WW2 and if so in what theatres ? I seem to recall a pic of an Italian engineer running with a German type flamethrower in Albania ???

Ardee
12-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Also, the Italians, with their modern weapons, were unable to beat the Ethiopians, who had weapons dating back to the 1890s, without the help of the Germans.

I don't recall any German assistance against the Ethiopians. Can you elaborate?


What type of flamethrowers did Italian infantry use in WW2 and if so in what theatres ? I seem to recall a pic of an Italian engineer running with a German type flamethrower in Albania ???

The Italians used the Modelos 35 and 40 as their main flamethrower (lanciafiamme). Both of these had two fuel tanks, though I also believe they had a three-tank version (I can't recall the designation). Viewed in profile, the two tanks might look like the single-tank German Flammenwerfer 34/35.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7520/italyflamethrowersx8.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-23-2008, 08:44 AM
Nice info Ardee.

Schuultz
01-02-2009, 07:11 PM
thanks for the info, I was always wondering what weapons they would use, because i don't recall ever seeing an italian soldier with one of these (in fact, in the only picture i can recall of an italian soldier with his rifle in view, he held an mp40)

how widespread where these weapons, especially after the germans occupied italy?

Dara
01-03-2009, 08:27 PM
Fantastic information. I learn so much here.

Ardee
01-05-2009, 02:21 PM
how widespread where these weapons, especially after the germans occupied italy?

Hi Schuultz,

I don't know how widespread these weapons were within the Regio Escrito, but if you do a search for Italian organization on engineering units, you'll probably get an idea. The Italians also exported the weapon to other Axis nations, including Finland, Hungary, and Romania.

I have no idea of what happened to production/use after 1943. My understanding is that the Italian contribution in manpower to the Allies is best described as modest, and was mostly equipped with American gear. The Axis RSI seemed to use a mixture of Italian and German gear. I can't swear to it, but I seem to dimly recall seeing a photo of a German using the Italian flamethrower, probably in Italy.

If you want to find general photos of Axis Italian forces, try the Commando Supremo web site, which I'm sure has been referenced to many times before on this site:

http://www.comandosupremo.com/

Nickdfresh
01-05-2009, 04:38 PM
The one constant in Italian arms design, particularly around the Second World War, is how crap their products are!

:lol:

Didn't Beretta make a decent sub-machine gun though?

Ardee
01-05-2009, 07:14 PM
I believe the Beretta 38A Machine Pistol is indeed universally well-thought of, as is the FNAB 43. The Italian medium mortar -- I would guess larger models as well -- were pretty much the same as the standard weapons in all of Europes armies. Artillery-wise, the Italians also produced the Cannone Da 75/32, which I understand to have performed well - the Italians just couldn't make them fast enough, and then had to sell abroad some of what they did make to finance their war effort. The Obice (howitzer) da 75/18 was also a modern, well-performing gun.

I don't know much about things outside of light artillery and small arms, but I believe several Italian aircraft were well-thought of, and their navy, if armed with better luck and better commanders, might have been a much greater threat than the actual events proved.

The flamethrower, in any case, seems to also have been a successful weapon. Their standard rifle comes from the same era as the German 98k, and I don't recall any especially disparaging critiques of it. IIRC, the main objection to one (I can't recall which) of the two main Heavy MGs the Italians used was that it was strip-fed, not belt-fed, etc -- but that was hardly unique to that weapon (e.g., so was the Japanese "woodpecker"). I think what Man of Stoat is referring to is the impression left by such weapons as the Brixia 45mm light mortar, the Breda LMG, and few other examples of over-engineered, overly-complicated, or just-plain-bad designs that didn't measure up in the field.

Panzerknacker
01-25-2009, 09:36 AM
A video of the Breda 1930 Mg, note the weird action for loading it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv1ZNnbUNjE

Panzerknacker
01-26-2009, 04:49 PM
Video the Beretta MAB ( Moschetto automatico beretta) submachinegun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EG6sDmhJ1U

Schuultz
01-26-2009, 05:45 PM
Well, that's a nice video. But nothing compares to the easy handling of the MP40 ;)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVQYj_zk_M

Panzerknacker
01-26-2009, 06:41 PM
The grandma shooting ..yes, that is a classic video. :)

Panzergrenadier Italien
01-26-2009, 08:34 PM
The one constant in Italian arms design, particularly around the Second World War, is how crap their products are!

poor ignorant Italy at the time wasn't a rich country that why they closed many factories but they did their best with guns like carcano, beretta 38/42 and others i can picture in my mind but i don't remember, also if you don't know the best canon of world war 2 was the Italian Canone 90/53, we began to have nice tanks with no help from no one such as the semovente 70/25 or the semovente 105 or the vast 149 and p40 with a coming p43
why germany and italy losed the war?????
because of the money the English, Russians and specially the Americans have

and dude there are others designs Italy had but im not gonna spend my time

Panzerknacker
10-06-2009, 06:52 PM
Forget the ignorant and carry on.;)


Breda gas operated.

In the main site I ve found 2 interesting pictures of the breda gas operated 8mm MG in Bosnia, I cant remember the exact model/number but here is.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/313438-2/be5b (http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/be5b.html)

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/313434-2/C__pia+de+mitragliere (http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/C__pia+de+mitragliere.html)

This machine gun was box feed by a side magazine. I will loook for more information about it.
Crap ? definately no, but I would like it more with an belt fed.

Edited to add, aparently this was the Model 37.

Panzerknacker
11-26-2009, 07:11 PM
Freshly uploaded videos of italian infantry weapons, the Breda 37 indeed is feed with 20 round clips, every used case is reinserted in the tray.
The Breda M1936, M1938 and the Fiat revelli M1935 used an special 8x59mm round with rebated rim, non interchangeable with the Regia aeronautica 7,7mm Breda ( ,303 british)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ3N7Fcms7Q

Panzerknacker
11-30-2009, 07:10 PM
Extensive information about ww1 and ww2 italian cartrigdes can be found here:

http://www.worldwar.it/sito/munizioni/italiane

Deaf Smith
12-01-2009, 08:56 PM
So the question becomes... Which had better weapons, the Italians or the Japanese? Cuase neither of them, overall, were top tier.

Deaf

Panzerknacker
12-03-2009, 05:23 PM
is a good question, the Italian heavy machineguns ( Fiat M1935 and Breda 36) were definately better than the clumsy 6,5 and 7,7 japanese models, but probably the squad automatic weapon, the Breda 30 was in fact worst then the Typ 11 clip feed and definately below the Tipo 96 light MGs.

In the rifle question they share the same trouble, the war surprize them in the process of changing the 6,5 caliber to a heavier one, the japanese used both, the italians discarded the 7,35mm and stayed with the 6,5.

Panzerknacker
01-10-2010, 01:24 PM
Semi-Automatic Rifle Armaguerra Mo.39

In the period prior to The Second World War most of the more populous countries had experimented with semi-automatic rifles, which would eventually supplant the manually operated ones in current use.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2qa5nqg.jpg

Mauser and Mannlicher both had designs out prior to World War One. The Mauser M1916 rifle having been in limited use during that conflict. Similarly, the Mondragon of the l893 and 1908 designs, made in Switzerland, had been used both by Mexico as well as Germany. Legend has it that Pancho Villa got his buckwheats with a number of Mondragons! The Danish Madsen Model 1903 light machinegun was actually the off spring of a design used for a semi-automatic rifle in service in that country in the late 1880’s. This design was actually the first successful semi-automatic rifle in military service, but that’s a story for another day.

The United States of course had already tested many designs, both foreign and domestic. At the time of the rifle we are going to talk about the Johnson and the Garand were the last surviving candidates, with all the earlier test models having fallen by the wayside.

In Italy the large Beretta firm had offered their gas operated Fucile Automatico M.931 and Model 1937 designs. The six shot clip loading of the m91 was standard on the m.1931 but was altered to a stripper clip loading system in the M.37. In addition this was also chambered for the 7.35mm cartridge as well as the old 6.5x 52mm load. Both of these design used a rotating bolt locking system. Another made by Scotti, the M.1931 was also being tested but was not considered for adoption.

The rifle that had the most success (apparently 10.000 were ordered) was the so-called ‘Armaguerra’. Also known as ‘Fucile Armaguerra Mo.39’. Actually made by the well known Revelli firm.

Shooting it was all positive, no stoppages or malfunctions at all, and very pleasant of course. It operated by short recoil with the barrel moving approximately ˝" back to unlock. It locked by means of a dropping block just like a P.38.

http://i49.tinypic.com/inwlxl.jpg

http://mvsn.forumcommunity.net/?t=5562082


Beside that data, I cant found any production numbers and why wasnt adopted by the Army.

burp
03-05-2010, 06:06 AM
It's seems like usual for my country, mass production scheduled for 1943 and adoption scheduled for 1944 but the invasion ceased this activities.

Panzerknacker
10-06-2010, 10:49 PM
A couple of very good photos, italian soldier in 1944 showing magazine belts for the MAB 38 9mm submachinegun.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5950/bundesarchivbild101i307.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5950/bundesarchivbild101i307.jpg

burp
10-07-2010, 06:47 AM
Forget the ignorant and carry on.;)

This machine gun was box feed by a side magazine. I will loook for more information about it.
Crap ? definately no, but I would like it more with an belt fed.

Edited to add, aparently this was the Model 37.
The tank version of Breda m37, named Breda M38, use a more usable upperside magazine. Still i don't understand what weapon designer of the time want to achieve using the odd feed strip felt mechanism. The image that you posted are from Breda m37, because they lack pistol grip of M38.

@Nickdfresh
Beretta produced Mab M1938/xx (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg89-e.htm), that is one of the best smg of WWII era.
Not produced by Beretta is the smg FNAB 43 (http://comandosupremo.com/fnab.html), expansive but very effective weapon. The Italian airplanes suffers for poor penetration perfomance of Breda light machine gun.

In general italian infantry weapons are good, but Italy lacks resources needed to give modern weapons to all his soldiers: in Africa campaign isn't so rare get WWI weapon and in small France campaign is common for soldier to have old weapons or not have some type of equipment at all. Anyway, machine gun and hand grenades wasn't good: bad choices of weapon designer lead to bad weapons.

Deaf Smith
10-08-2010, 10:17 PM
Panzerknacker,

I like that vest they are wearing with the MAB 38 mag pouches! All this 'tactical' stuff you see today is not a new idea. Funny that!

And say, are those grenade pouches below that seem to be stuffed with what? Food? Bandages?

Deaf

Panzerknacker
10-20-2010, 08:32 PM
Those were the leather cases for the 6 round clips to reload the Carcaro 6,5mm rifle, evidently the soldier of that picture is using them for other purposes and might be as a first aid container.

The Fiendish Red Baron
10-21-2010, 06:36 AM
Italian Rifles for sale... Only dropped once!

skorzeny57
01-22-2011, 01:18 PM
Italian Rifle for sale... Only dropped once!
Ha, Ha, Ha you are funny and nice like an ingrowing nail... And what can you tell us about the "famous" Irish Rifles? :evil:

Iron Yeoman
01-22-2011, 04:12 PM
Ha, Ha, Ha you are funny and nice like an ingrowing nail... And what can you tell us about the "famous" Irish Rifles? :evil:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Irish_Rifles

Now known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Irish_Regiment_(1992)

Also their official site http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/3409.aspx

skorzeny57
01-22-2011, 05:57 PM
Hi Iron,
the only reason why i wanted to implicate the "famous" Irish Rifles ( NB - i wrote Irish Rifles, not Irish Soldiers...) it was just because that kind of humor, really pisses me off... I think that it's unanimously well-known that the Italian was the Army worst armed, fitted out in an almost absurd way and sent to certain defeat in places like northern Africa or Russia, against numerically superior forces and with better weapons, equipments, means of transportation, etc. If you want you can criticize the Duce, the Government, the King or whoever you want... And i'll probably be with you... But live alone the soldiers... My humble opinion is that the soldiers, every soldiers, it doesn't matter from wich side, right or wrong, good or evil, deserve honour and respect, expecially the fallen... They paid the highest price. In the area where i live the most part of the soldiers were enlisted in the Alpini Corp and sent to Russia. Well, the most part of the family that i know, lost someone during the retreat from Eastern Front, from the Don river area. About the most part of them, the family didn't never know where and when their sons died. During a fight or lost and frozen in the snow o died for starvation... I can't stand who make some poor-quality irony on this matter. Dear Fiendish Red Baron, if you have guts, go to those families an tell then that they " dropped their rifles..." Good luck!
I'm sorry for this vent... I hope it'll be useful to understand my point of view. It isn't my intention to offend anyone... Best regards Iron Yeoman.

Iron Yeoman
01-22-2011, 07:37 PM
I just popped it up there for info. The Italians got a raw deal and like you say any poor bugger that was on the Eastern front deserves a fair amount of respect. My regiment (not the Royal Irish btw) preferred fighting the Italians in Africa, because like you say they were badly equipped and their armour was pretty awful. An awful lot of brave Italians died because of the pride of Il Duce. I would also like to add that whilst many doubted the fighting prowess of the Italian soldier in WW2 that was firmly but to bed in Iraq when the Italians really got stuck in especially the Bersaglieri and the Carabinieri who sadly lost 12 men in 2003.

Best regards to yourself Skorzeny57.

Nickdfresh
01-23-2011, 03:01 AM
At some point, I'll look up instances in North Africa Rick Atkins wrote about in An Army at Dawn where he recounts vicious mountain fighting between Italians and Americans in the mountains of Tunisia where both sides were often reduced to throwing rocks at each other and some Italians refused to surrender as they fought from caves. Reading it, I got the notion is was something one would more associate with the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific Theater...

Nickdfresh
01-23-2011, 03:46 AM
Italian Rifles for sale... Only dropped once!

As a mod, I wish people would refrain from making such cliche, boring comments. Your attention to this matter is appreciated. Thank you in advance...

fredl109
01-23-2011, 05:03 AM
Hello to everyone in your answers, I see you are wondering why the small-caliber weapons in Italians were so advanced. In fact, you should know before entering the war, Mussolini had made the decision to change the caliber rifles equipping his army, he had commissioned a study, as many things as this study left before the start of the war and so instead of having refined their armaments industry had expected the high command directives. Thus the Italian army units were left with obsolete weapons and often deffective (the number of times the gun jammed against the enemy no longer counted), not that they did not know how weapons of qualities, but like many Italian projects, they had been poorly planned (war Demara too early for many of this) and especially the country's industrial coverage dated 20s.
Regards Fred.

The Fiendish Red Baron
01-23-2011, 06:27 AM
As a mod, I wish people would refrain from making such cliche, boring comments. Your attention to this matter is appreciated. Thank you in advance...


Well seeing as my Great-Uncle made the comment after having rounded up a fair few Italians in the Western Desert, I'd say it was a fair comment for him to make.

Just for your information, I do happen to know what went on in the war... Thirty years reading and listening to veterans helps, though I will never know it all. My family is Italian by origin. As was my Great-Uncle who served in the British Army in the Western Desert, and as was his father who served in the British Army in Mespotamia.

Its called tongue in cheek humour, and if you cant take it, then you really need to take a rest.

As Churchill commented...


We have never been your foes till now. In the last war against the barbarous Huns we were your comrades. For fifteen years after that war, we were your friends. Although the institutions which you adopted after that war were not akin to ours and diverged, as we think, from the sovereign impulses which had commanded the unity of Italy, we could still walk together in peace and good-will. Many thousands of your people dwelt with ours in England; many of our people dwelt with you in Italy.

Or his other comment on Italy siding with Germany in WW2...


"It's only fair. We had to have them in the last war."


As for the comments about the Irish, I wouldnt comment on their martial ability unless you know of it.

Im not Irish by the way, but English of Italian descent.

Iron Yeoman
01-23-2011, 07:23 AM
shake hands lads?

skorzeny57
01-23-2011, 07:55 AM
Yes, of course, Iron Yeoman, my wise friend,
nothing of personal and nothing offensive... (i hope so...). The problem with the Italian, is that probably we don't understand that "tongue in cheek humour"... But i fell myself in good company if someone says
As a mode, I wish people would refrain from making such cliche, boring comment. But we don't have to worry about it... Like i told yesterday, we can discuss about the Duce and his party, the Government or about that chicken-s**t of the King, but, please honour to the poor soldiers...
And like our good friend Iron Yeoman suggests, lets shake our hands! Thank for your time, Nickdfresh. Best regards to all of you.

Rising Sun*
01-23-2011, 08:41 AM
Well seeing as my Great-Uncle made the comment after having rounded up a fair few Italians in the Western Desert, I'd say it was a fair comment for him to make.

You didn't attribute your comment to anyone. What you posted was all your own work. So defend your own comment, not something your great uncle allegedly said seventy or so years ago as the originator of the well worn comment about Italian rifles for sale.

Or, preferably, don't dig your hole deeper but just acknowledge, publicly or privately, that you made an unwise comment to an unsympathetic audience.


Just for your information, I do happen to know what went on in the war... Thirty years reading and listening to veterans helps, though I will never know it all. My family is Italian by origin. As was my Great-Uncle who served in the British Army in the Western Desert, and as was his father who served in the British Army in Mespotamia.

It wasn't apparent from your comment "Italian Rifles for sale... Only dropped once!" that you have any understanding of the reasons for the unwillingness of many Italian soldiers in North Africa to fight to the death.


Its called tongue in cheek humour, and if you cant take it, then you really need to take a rest.

Not from my reading of your clear and concise comment.

It was just a smartarse and, as Nick said, cliched comment which unfairly stereotyped and disparaged Italian soldiers. (Refer my next post for further info.)

Nick doesn't need to take a rest, although he's long overdue for one as a mod who keeps this board going for no pay and no thanks from members like you who get unduly upset about well-deserved rebukes from mods.

You would be better advised to step back from your comment and from trying to defend it to no purpose, and just accept that you made a mistake and apologise for it. Or, if you can't bring yourself to apologise, just let it go without further comment.

Rising Sun*
01-23-2011, 09:02 AM
I would also like to add that whilst many doubted the fighting prowess of the Italian soldier in WW2 that was firmly but to bed in Iraq when the Italians really got stuck in especially the Bersaglieri and the Carabinieri who sadly lost 12 men in 2003.

Like all armies, the fighting qualities of Italian soldiers in WWII depended upon the unit.

Many Italians had the wisdom to see that it was pointless fighting in North Africa for a cause they didn't believe in and wisely surrendered in droves. This was a gift to the Allied propaganda machine, and to English-speaking peoples with contemptuous attitudes towards Southern Europeans in general and Italians in particular. The impression created by those long columns of generally relieved Italian prisoners gave rise to comments about Italian rifles for sale, never used, dropped only once; Italian tanks having three forward gears and twelve reverse gears; and Italian officers with silver cutlery and lace table cloths and collections of fine wine but disinclined to fight, etc.

On the other side of the ledger, I've read memoirs by Australian troops who fought Italian units which fought hard. Their view was that the Italian units which fought hard were bloody hard fighters and at least as good as the Germans or anyone else.

What is usually ignored in flippant comments about Italian soldiers’ courage, or alleged lack of it, is that Italian partisans fought a more dangerous and more courageous war against the Germans which put not only the fighters but their wider families and villagers at risk, with vastly less training, support and resources in every respect than Italian military units had in North Africa. The British, Americans, Canadians, and Australians were never tested in that regard and, while one hopes they would have done as well, the absence of that experience does not qualify them to comment adversely upon the courage of Italian fighting men and, in the partisan context, women and children who all bore the brutal risks of fighting the Germans.

I’ve said some of the above elsewhere in other forgotten threads, as I’ve also said that no nation or people has a monopoly on cowardice or courage.

I’ve also remarked in other threads upon the Italian POWs captured in North Africa who were sent to Australia and rented out as upmarket slave labour to farmers and others, and how they made such a good impression as workers and persons that many of their bosses sponsored them as migrants after the war ended. It also said something about the way they were treated as POWs that those Italians wanted to come back as migrants.

Many of those Italian post-war migrants to Australia probably dropped their rifles only once. They, many now dead and most of the survivors probably not too far away from death, went on to make a major contribution to Australia since WWII. If dropping their rifles only once was what allowed that to happen, I'm glad it did.

skorzeny57
01-23-2011, 10:01 AM
Rising Sun*,
you express in the best possible way, something that i haven't been able to write, 'cause english isn't my mother language and sometimes doesn't allow me to express myself in the way i would do...

I've said some of the above elsewhere in other forgotten threads, as i've also said that no nation or people has a monopoly of cowardice or courage.

If i'm allowed to do it, i would like to close this debate, remainding the last fallen soldier of the Italian Army. Last thursday, January 18th, 2011, the Corporal Luca Sanna, of the 8° Alpini Regiment, were killed in Afghanistan. Yesterday, in Rome, has taken place his Funeral Rites. A kind thought to his family and honour and respect at his memento.

Thank to all of you that express their opinion about this topic: Iron Yeoman, fredl109, The Fiendish Red Baron and, of course, Nickdfresh and Rising Sun*.

Best regards to all of you.

Rising Sun*
01-23-2011, 10:05 AM
If i'm allowed to do it, i would like to close this debate, remainding the last fallen soldier of the Italian Army. Last thursday, January 18th, 2011, the Corporal Luca Sanna, of the 8° Alpini Regiment, were killed in Afghanistan. Yesterday, in Rome, has taken place his Funeral Rites. A kind thought to his family and honour and respect at his memento.

Of course you're allowed to do it.

I am sure that all members acknowledge Corporal Sanna's service and sacrifice, and share your kind thoughts to his family and respect at his memento.

Debate closed.

And that's a mod ruling.

Uyraell
01-23-2011, 08:24 PM
Rising Sun*,
you express in the best possible way, something that i haven't been able to write, 'cause english isn't my mother language and sometimes doesn't allow me to express myself in the way i would do...


If i'm allowed to do it, i would like to close this debate, remainding the last fallen soldier of the Italian Army. Last thursday, January 18th, 2011, the Corporal Luca Sanna, of the 8° Alpini Regiment, were killed in Afghanistan. Yesterday, in Rome, has taken place his Funeral Rites. A kind thought to his family and honour and respect at his memento.

Thank to all of you that express their opinion about this topic: Iron Yeoman, fredl109, The Fiendish Red Baron and, of course, Nickdfresh and Rising Sun*.

Best regards to all of you.

Requaescat In Pace, Caporale Luca Sanna.
In Memoriam Honore.

"They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old,
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn,
At the going down of the sun, we will remember them,
We WILL Remember Them."

-- Laurance Binyan.--

(The above "Binyan's Lines" are said aloud every April 25th, ANZAC Day, the day upon which New Zealanders and Australians Remember the dead Armed Forces personel who have fought in various wars.)

With Respect, Uyraell.

Deaf Smith
01-23-2011, 10:21 PM
I look at it this way.

The Italians in WW1 were NOT known as poor fighters, right? So why in WW2 did they perform so poorly? Many Italians did not believe in “El Duce’s” and did not want the war (and I mean many, not just a few on college campuses!) The will to fight for what you think is a good cause can make you strong, and if it is not there it can make you weak.

Look at it this way, American has been known to have hard fighters but after Vietnam the world kind of wondered if we were just a bunch of pot heads (if you knew of the demoralization in ’73 the soldiers had in Vietnam you would think the whole American military was pathetic.) But that view has changed cause we have been in wars after that and shown we still had what it takes.

Italy has not been in another war since WW2, which considering the destruction they received I don’t blame them, and thus have not had a way to prove themselves. France, unfortunately, did have one in Indochina but again they have not had chances to redeem themselves since.

Deaf

burp
01-24-2011, 04:12 AM
The Italians in WW1 were NOT known as poor fighters, right? So why in WW2 did they perform so poorly? Many Italians did not believe in “El Duce’s” and did not want the war (and I mean many, not just a few on college campuses!) The will to fight for what you think is a good cause can make you strong, and if it is not there it can make you weak.
Sorry but how can you said that they perform so poorly? We didn't have modern equipment in the numbers needed, logistic lines or great generals. We fight at best as we can, both German and British officiers agree with this and several of them said that we fight well, but we cannot do miracles.
Many Italians believe in "Il Duce" (El Duce is in Spanish language), after all he keeps the power for several years before WWII. You can said that Italian population make this mistake, but you cannot said that we don't fight well.


Italy has not been in another war since WW2, which considering the destruction they received I don’t blame them, and thus have not had a way to prove themselves. France, unfortunately, did have one in Indochina but again they have not had chances to redeem themselves since.
No european country want to enter at war because after destruction of WWI and WWII we learn what modern war can do on civil population. Italy cannot legally declare aggressive war and also Germany, these States can declare only defensive war against aggresion of their national soil. I bet that also France, UK, Netherland have the same law.

fredl109
01-24-2011, 10:59 AM
I look at it this way.

The Italians in WW1 were NOT known as poor fighters, right? So why in WW2 did they perform so poorly? Many Italians did not believe in “El Duce’s” and did not want the war (and I mean many, not just a few on college campuses!) The will to fight for what you think is a good cause can make you strong, and if it is not there it can make you weak.

Deaf

Deaf Smith forgiveness, but you're wrong about the Italians, and especially on the relationship they had with the Duce, he was considered the "little father"and the Italian people followed him in all his decisions, although there were opponents, those remains marginal. The takeover of Mussolini had done legally and without undue overflow and that his troops remained in the memory of the people, the more he had begun a major program to modernize his country, both in terms construction (roads, highways, cities) that on an intellectual level, with easier access to school for all levels of society (remember that the Italian company at this time is heavily agricultural), only a few manufacturers and general attempt to dissuade Mussolini to engage in war because they knew the weaknesses of the armaments industry.
Regards Fred

Ardee
01-24-2011, 11:40 AM
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere - perhaps earlier in this same thread, I'm too lazy to go looking -- the Italian soldier was poorly paid (IIRC, the equivalent of $0.17 a day, versus what is perhaps the other extreme, the US wage of almost $2.00 a day). The rank and file were what was left over after the Navy and air force got to pick what they viewed as the best and the brightest (they also paid more, giving men more motivation to join those arms). They were, with the exception of some choice infantry units, viewed as the dregs of society, and respected by their command structure accordingly. While I don't recall any specific discussion of it, I suspect the same general rule applied to the officer corps as well: the "best and brightest" were drawn into the prestigious naval/air arms, with the remainder being left for the army. Must have been fun, huh, being asked to fight and die for a country that held you and your comrades in such high regard?

Deaf Smith
01-24-2011, 10:10 PM
Fred,

He did it legally? But what about the squadristi violence? And what about the MVSN detachments beat up the opposition and prevented opposition newspapers from publishing news of such? Basically Mussolini did to Italy with the MVSN what Hitler did with his brownshirts.

Yes Le Duce did get the trains to run on time, as Hitler got the Autobahn to work. But neither was universally loved and after the Italo-Ethiopian War, the invasion of Albania followed by the Italian invasion of Greece and the Italian invasion of British Somaliland (which was one of the only successful Italian campaigns of World War II accomplished without German support) gave a lot of Italians doubts.

Enough doubts to start the Italian resistance movement and in ’43 over 50,000 Italians fought on the allies side in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army. Hitler never had to worry about a German armed resistance movement like Mussolini did (yes there was a White Rose movement but not armed resistance fighters in the hills.) And yes there were assassination attempts on Mussolini just as there were on Hitler (and with the same results.)

Does that mean he was hated by a majority of his people? No. But he sure was not liked by a lot of ‘em.

Deaf

burp
01-25-2011, 05:02 AM
He did it legally?
Yes he did. When Fascisti march on Roma (Rome), the Italian King instead to order to Army or Carabinieri to arrest them gives to Mussolini the official role of Prime Minister. This is a legal act.


But what about the squadristi violence? And what about the MVSN detachments beat up the opposition and prevented opposition newspapers from publishing news of such? Basically Mussolini did to Italy with the MVSN what Hitler did with his brownshirts.
Opposition is still capable to publish his newspapers, even with some problems. The violence of Camicie Nere is an historical fact, but it's only a minor reason for Mussolini success. Mussolini knows exactly how to use propaganda to control people. While Camicie Nere fought against comunist and labour union, this type of action is capable to get consent from a small fraction of Italians, the middle class that fears wage from low social classes. The majority of population, workers or farmers, don't like Mussolini because he uses violence against them but for his charisma, charisma artificially constructed by propaganda. Mussolini doesn't need something like KristallNacth.
Ah, another thing: a big difference of Camicie Nere from SA with SS is the racist violence. In Camicie Nere you can find Hebrews and even some high exponent of Fascist Party is Hebrew.
There is one reason because Hitler considers at the start Mussolini as his teacher and Allies want Mussolini alive: he demonstrates that in modern era you can construct consent with artificial methods using new technologies like radio. Think about Hitler and Mussolini: Mussolini in five years is capable to become Prime Minister of Italy with his March on Roma; Hitler in six years fails with Munchen Putch to overthrow the govern of one of the Lander that form Germany. Hitler imitates a lot of ideas from Mussolini but Hitler surpasses his teacher: he is able to create a huge wave of fanatism. Even when Germany is in ruins, there is clear evidences that war will end with total defeat Germans still want to die for their Fuhrer.


Yes Le Duce did get the trains to run on time, as Hitler got the Autobahn to work. But neither was universally loved and after the Italo-Ethiopian War, the invasion of Albania followed by the Italian invasion of Greece and the Italian invasion of British Somaliland (which was one of the only successful Italian campaigns of World War II accomplished without German support) gave a lot of Italians doubts.
Sorry if I correct you again, but Le Duce is in French. In Italian you said Il Duce.
What are the sources of this claims? Becuase Italians sources said a thing totally different and even my grandparents that live these events said the same. Remember that Mussolini keeps the power for 21 years.


Enough doubts to start the Italian resistance movement and in ’43 over 50,000 Italians fought on the allies side in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army. Hitler never had to worry about a German armed resistance movement like Mussolini did (yes there was a White Rose movement but not armed resistance fighters in the hills.) And yes there were assassination attempts on Mussolini just as there were on Hitler (and with the same results.)
Sorry for my words, but I think that you don't know too much about us.
Until 1943, Mussolini is still the trustful leader. But in 1943 what happens:
- Italians open their eyes, Mussolini promises that nobody can enter on Itay soil while Allies are able to land in Sicily easily, it's a fact that breaks the suspension of credibility that Mussolini created in order to deny any fails of government;
- Italians know in their souls that Mussolini is not a good person and did orrible things, "Legge Fascistissime" Italian racial laws for example, but at the same time they know that they are accomplices of things that Mussolini did, so it easier for Italians to simply say "we are forced to do this things, we always hate/don't love Mussolini and his violent Party, then we fight him now!" than admit that they support him;
- Nazi soldiers in Italy acts from the first day after 1943 Italian armistice as invasors, not like ally (they steal important artworks, they force Italian workers to work for Germany, etc.), they enter in Italy without permission, they are foe and Fascista Party is seen by majority of Italians like traitors that permit that Nazi soldiers enter in Italy;

fredl109
01-25-2011, 05:34 AM
Burp thank you for this beautiful presentation is exactly what I meant in my post above, but my English is limited and I translated with google is necessarily more limited. It is interesting that many people make the comparison between Hitler and Mussolini and I thank you for your contribution to make to correct this error.
Regards Fred.

DVX
02-11-2011, 07:39 PM
Somethings never change. I think the Beretta 1934 bears an uncanny resemblance to Beretta's M9 (aka 92) pistol.

Also, the Italians, with their modern weapons, were unable to beat the Ethiopians, who had weapons dating back to the 1890s, without the help of the Germans. Sad.

It's not so. Nobody thought that an army would be able of winning a war so far from mothercountry e in so vaste and difficoult spaces in only 7 months. Ethiopians had too some modern weapons, sold by British, with British instructors and sold... by Germans too and other countries. Ethiopians had no heavy anti-aircraft artillery and no air force. But they were not so bad in individual armament. British were defeated in Afghanistan.... in similar conditions...

DVX
02-11-2011, 08:07 PM
Sorry but how can you said that they perform so poorly? We didn't have modern equipment in the numbers needed, logistic lines or great generals. We fight at best as we can, both German and British officiers agree with this and several of them said that we fight well, but we cannot do miracles.
Many Italians believe in "Il Duce" (El Duce is in Spanish language), after all he keeps the power for several years before WWII. You can said that Italian population make this mistake, but you cannot said that we don't fight well.


No european country want to enter at war because after destruction of WWI and WWII we learn what modern war can do on civil population. Italy cannot legally declare aggressive war and also Germany, these States can declare only defensive war against aggresion of their national soil. I bet that also France, UK, Netherland have the same law.

I totally agree. Simply, in WWII Italy was absolutely not fit for such a conflict. Old weapons and in small numbers. The declaration of war was a just a cinic political bet: Germany looks like to be the winner, and the war very brief. Till to june 1940 Mussolini hoped in a French "new Marna" to avoid the conflict. For 20 years Germany, Britain and France have prepared the conflict. The fascist Italy instead built schools, motorways, popular houses, hospitals, new lands for agricolture, new towns in Italy and Colonies, new social laws. Italy just modernized herself, and spent all her little military balance in two expensive wars like Ethiopia and Spain. In 1940, simply, everything, in economics and resources had already be given. Fascism talked about war and made peace. Only Italy tryed to stop Germany in 1934, nor British, nor France.
Last but not least... what Churchill promised to Mussolini in the famous secret letters? We'll never know. Vae victis.

Just a thing: the Carcano model 91, ordinance italian infantry rifle, killed Kennedy by Lee Oswalds.

DVX
02-11-2011, 08:30 PM
Fred,

He did it legally? But what about the squadristi violence? And what about the MVSN detachments beat up the opposition and prevented opposition newspapers from publishing news of such? Basically Mussolini did to Italy with the MVSN what Hitler did with his brownshirts.


Deaf

You're wrong. In Italy there was a "not declared" civil war amongst 3 factions: social-communists, monarchy-reactionary-liberists and fascists. Surely only communists or fascists would win.
The monarchy preferred to make an arrangement with Mussolini, rather than to be swept away by the communists. Mussolini preferred an arrangement to avoid the risk of a total war and so he shared the power with the king. Reactionary forces tried to pull him down some years later in 1924, just when Mussolini wanted to open to CGIL sindicate and to the moderate socialist party, and just when the Fascism had reestablished the order. The result was, instead, the dictatorship.
The fascists had over 3000 deads in 1919-24!!! And the episodes of violence against the fascist were countless. It's absolutely false that the fascists were the "bad guys" and the other poor victims like dumbs. But after 1945, at least in Italy but not only, history books are written by communists... What you wrote is the result of an ideological historiography written by the winners of the second civil war (this time declared) in 1943-45.
Please, have a look to my site, we talk about history and politics of fascism:

http://ilcovo.mastertopforum.net/index.php

fredl109
02-12-2011, 06:34 AM
Hello to all, to answer you, I would say this, of course there were abuses committed by supporters of Mussolini, but compare to that of Hitler's brownshirts is to compare day and night. I would say without wanting to offend anyone it is rather "soft" view of Mussolini was to take power in the strictest legality, political end he knew that if it was tainted many lives, it would be very hard to make the national unity, did not hurt my words because I am not a fascist and I do not the apology any death is one death too, but we must recognize Mussolini it was on this side the very successful, and compare it to Hitler does not make sense. I agree with what I said DVX and I know his site is very well, you know our cons, go take a look, he is French, but it should interest you.
There's just one thing or I do not agree with DVX is that this is not Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy, he was part of the group but it is not he who killed, too bad shot for that.
Regards Fred

http://italie1935-45.forumactif.net/

DVX
02-12-2011, 09:08 AM
Really interesting your site fredl109! Why an interest in Italian things? Various international websites study italian military history, and that makes me very corious of why and very happy, too. Of course, mod. 91 and Lee Oswald "officially" killed Kennedy, I meant ;-D

fredl109
02-12-2011, 09:58 AM
DVX Hello, I'm glad you like our forum, and to answer you, I'm French and I live about 250 km from the Italian border, and I perceived that I knew nothing of its history during the 2nd World War, so when I found the forum through my best friend, I myself am registered and I learned many things, including one that told a lot of nonsense about the military Italian. I knew your forum because during my research I came across it and I also discovered the site of WW2 in colors that I'm writing well, I like it because it is varied, and it addresses many subjects that interest me, including Italy.
And to answer you about Oswald, I'd say that I did a bit expressly to say this because when you know the shooting performance of the Carcano, you're laughing, 3 balls in under 6 seconds, it's out opportunities that gun even with a super sniper, that was not Oswald.
Regards Fred.

DVX
02-13-2011, 09:24 AM
You konw Fred, sometime, I've noticed, foreign people, or Italian descents living abroad discuss ad study Italian history or military history with a passion, a competence and a balance often difficoult to find here in Italy. In general I think that Italy's history and fascist Italy in contemporary history are very charming subject of study. This is can be a reason, but the most for me is due to two reasons: an absolute freedom of research for history lovers and for the achademic wolrd abroad, especially in anglosaxon speaking countries. In Italy Italy it's very very difficoult because the oligarchy controls totally the achademy world and reject everything that 's not politically useful to its purposes or politically uncorrect. Another cause is that the distance in space and time from the motherland can strenghten feelings of Italian heritage.
An example of this speech it's this interesting website founded by a Canadian engineer of Italian heritage and that gathers many fans or modellists of Regia Aeronautica and ANR:

http://www.stormomagazine.com/index.htm

skorzeny57
02-13-2011, 12:26 PM
If i may be allowed to say something about it, my opinion is that here in Italy old wounds open up, when someone try to face such ticklish questions... Apart from politic and academic world, this kind of discussion is often difficult even between two plain persons. I agree with you DVX when you say that Foreign or Italian descents discuss or study our history with "... a passion, a competence and a balance, hard to find here in Italy." Our narrow- mindedness about these topics and our mental attitude, like our incurable individualism, conditioned the way of thinking of this Country, as well the political Parties, Institutions, Education system, etc. I think we'll need some other generations, to comprehend and somatize what the History, tryed to teach us...
The last thing, DVX, is that in this Forum, except very few exceptions, you'll find open-mind and available people, with a kind disposition towards whoever...
Best regards. :)

DVX
02-13-2011, 05:50 PM
You'll right Skorzeny57... for example, if you think, at first sight it's very strange for example that a website like comandosupremo.com is born outside Italy. Actually, considering what we said, it's clear... However, as I told Fred, it's make me happy to see a website like his one or the others we're talking about.
Now, coming back to the topic of Italian infantry weapons, I wanted to make attention over two submachine guns that were used together with the MAB even if (as usual in Italy's WWII weapons) in small small numbers: the tz 45 and the fnab 43. Like in other military field, Italian military industry showed the ability to create new modern and competitive sub-machine guns for infantry, but as usual in WWII, too late and, first of all, in too small numbers.
I link these websites to show you photos and information about tz 45 and fnab 43:

http://www.mymilitaria.it/liste_04/borsa_tz.htm#eng

http://mvsn.forumcommunity.net/?t=10523261

skorzeny57
02-13-2011, 06:56 PM
The Tz-45 was an Italian submachine gun, chambered for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, produced in small numbers (about 6.000) between 1944 and 1945. TZ are the initial letters of the two designers (Tonon and Zorzoli), that planned the weapon. The production was entrusted to the "Giandoso Brothers Arm Factory" of Brescia (that is my town...). A friend of mine, about ten years ago, found one of these smg in the river that crosses the town, the Mella river. Of course the weapon, even if now restored, is fully unusable but is a good piece, anyway. Probably, after the end of the war, when the post-war Authority forced all the former soldiers and partisans to hand back all the weapons, someone hid it. After some years, probably scared by the consequences of an illegal possession of firearm, they got rid of it, throwing the smg in the river... I will probably be able to post a picture of this smg, in the next days. Best regards.

DVX
11-08-2011, 11:23 AM
Strangely in this post was forgotten the Beretta 18/30, semiautomatic rifle born at the end of WWI, later improved till to the last version, just the 18/30 caliber 9mm adopted by the Italian army. This rifle was also exported in Latin America, above all to the Argentinian police. In Italy, apart a modest number of items for the army, it became the standard weapon of the Milizia Forestale (MVSN for forestal guard) that used it until the '70s years, more than 40 years after that this rifle was introduced and 30 after that the Corp was renamed Corpo Forestale and its former black shirts abandoned forever (soon after the war: it's actually the only corp directly descending from the Black Shirts)...

DVX
11-08-2011, 11:26 AM
Here tne Beretta 18/30 in action "live"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGeXlcfnfTk

DVX
11-08-2011, 11:54 AM
Just have a look to this brief footages. They're short introductions to the main Italian mgs for infantry support; they're original videos of the war time.

Breda 20mm mod.35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olE_N8IWVRM&feature=related
Breda 8mm mod.37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzVOky20Cz0&feature=related
Fiat-Revelli 8mm mod.35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7JyWyWxxg&feature=related
Breda 6,5mm (but cartdrige 7,35 were good the same) mod.30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwU2oQq0c_4&feature=related

I add too the mortar Brixia introduction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgWxP1YIKk&feature=related
and the rifle Carcano mod.91/38 version 7,35mm (this model was also sold to Finland) one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSl0HgIj6pE&feature=related

fredl109
01-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Hello DVX my friend, unfortunately your videos are not more available, a pity because they were interesting by made it that they were taken on the land.
Fred regards