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1PUK
04-03-2007, 01:14 PM
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/gb/dokument.aspx?iid=50569

Today marks the 67th anniversary of the Katyn massacre.

In 1940 the Stalinist NKVD secret police executed over 20 thousand
Polish army and police officers, who had been held in POW camps in
Ukraine since the Soviets invaded Polish territory in September 1939,
on the basis of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact signed with the Nazis.

Commemorative events are being held throughout Poland. In Warsaw, a
symbolic wreath has been placed by Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski at
the Katyn quarters in the Powazki Military Cemetery.

Flammpanzer
04-03-2007, 01:25 PM
truly a very sad story. maybe interesting that for decades the germans were blaimed for that crime.

Egorka
04-03-2007, 02:32 PM
Hello!

It is a very sad anniversary. It was a crime, no doubt! Polish people had to go trough a lot of suffering in the XXth century!

But since we are in a historical forum in here, 1PUK, can you tell us what was the real number of the Polish victims in Katyn?
And also what was the number of Polish officers and intellectuals killed in the spring 1940 in USSR?

I can give you a hint: http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/

And also this table from the same site:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/428009665_0ceef3410d_o.gif

Polar
04-04-2007, 12:39 PM
The "Katyn massacre" is the name all Soviet execution on polish POW and civilian. On List "Karta" in (first position) is the number 14.587 Polish POW killed by NKWD in 3 camps (Katyn, Kharkow and Twer (former Kalinin)). The number civilian excuted by NKWD is 7000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Egorka
04-04-2007, 04:31 PM
The "Katyn massacre" is the name all Soviet execution on polish POW and civilian. On List "Karta" in (first position) is the number 14.587 Polish POW killed by NKWD in 3 camps (Katyn, Kharkow and Twer (former Kalinin)). The number civilian excuted by NKWD is 7000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Hi Polar,

I know that for Polish poeple, "Katyn massacre" is the collective name of the executions. But it might not be clear to other member of this forum, that is why I asked 1PUK.

Polar, I also wanted to ask about those 7000 of civilians you mentioned. Where is it in the table. I can read the table but not good enough.

Thanks.

Chevan
04-05-2007, 12:50 AM
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/gb/dokument.aspx?iid=50569

Today marks the 67th anniversary of the Katyn massacre.

In 1940 the Stalinist NKVD secret police executed over 20 thousand
Polish army and police officers, who had been held in POW camps in
Ukraine since the Soviets invaded Polish territory in September 1939,
on the basis of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact signed with the Nazis.

Commemorative events are being held throughout Poland. In Warsaw, a
symbolic wreath has been placed by Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski at
the Katyn quarters in the Powazki Military Cemetery.
Hello 1PUK.;)
Tell me please how many time more you will call the west Ukraine and Belorussian territories as Polish?
Is it a polish historic imperialism? Or simply short memory? ;)
BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they "suddenly" found the graves?

Cheers.

Polar
04-05-2007, 02:09 AM
Hi Polar,



Polar, I also wanted to ask about those 7000 of civilians you mentioned. Where is it in the table. I can read the table but not good enough.

Thanks.
Well, this civilians are in part II position 1 and 2. "Arrested on Kresy Wschodnie"
In coment to this list on web Karta http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_4.html is info. that 3435 peoples from soviet prison on West Ukrain was mourdered and list with personal names was give by Ukrainians. 3870 peoples from West Belorussian was mourdered but list with personal names was "lost".



Originally Posted by 1PUK
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica...aspx?iid=50569

Today marks the 67th anniversary of the Katyn massacre.

In 1940 the Stalinist NKVD secret police executed over 20 thousand
Polish army and police officers, who had been held in POW camps in
Ukraine since the Soviets invaded Polish territory in September 1939,
on the basis of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact signed with the Nazis.

Hello mate Polar.
Tell me please how many time more you will call the west Ukraine and Belorussian territories as Polish?
Is it a polish historic imperialism? Or simply short memory?
BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they "suddenly" found the graves?

Chevan I don't wrote this post but I answer for you question. In september 1939 Soviet Union invade Poland and what is name and who belonged this territory now don't changed this fact.


BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they "suddenly" found the graves?

Sorry I don't know why Nazi don't found this graves in 1941 or 1942. Mayby they don't looking this graves. If you ask did "Katyn massacre" was use as excellent propaganda tools by Nazi. My answer is yes, but you remember that not changed fact who did this massacre and who is resposible for that.

BTW not only Nazi try use "Katyn massacre" as excellent propaganda tools


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Soviet trials
From December 29, 1945 to January 5, 1946, ten officers of the German Wehrmacht – Karl Hermann Strüffling, Heinrich Remmlinger, Ernst Böhm, Eduard Sonnenfeld, Herbard Janike, Erwin Skotki, Ernst Geherer, Erich Paul Vogel, Franz Wiese, and Arno Dürer – were tried by a Soviet military court in Leningrad. In what is now widely considered a show trial, they were falsely charged for an alleged role in the Katyn massacre. The first seven officers were sentenced to death and executed by public hanging on the same day. The other three were sentenced to hard labor, Vogel and Wiese to 20 year terms each and Dürer to 15 years.[38] Dürer is said to have pleaded guilty at the trial and to have returned to Germany later, the fate of the others sentenced to hard labor remains unknown.[39][dubious — see talk page]

In 1946, the chief Soviet prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials, Roman A. Rudenko, tried to indict Germany for the Katyn killings, stating that "one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders",[40] but dropped the matter after the United States and United Kingdom refused to support it and German lawyers mounted an embarrassing defense.[1][41]


German WWII propaganda poster (in French) exploiting the massacre. The text reads: If the Soviets win the war! Katyn everywhereMore specifically, presented by the Soviet charge the Burdenko report, in spite of the reserves[42]of the Anglo-Saxons, was accepted on grounds of the article 21[43] and coded as URSS-54. The German White Book of 1943 was accepted on grounds of the article 19[44] with, as had underlined it the president of the court,[45] a potential convincing value; the course of the debates would make this adjective pointless. The intransigence of the Soviets to reveal Katyn in the bill of indictment was driven by the final objective: to quote it in the verdict. To this end, summoning of some witnesses was refused.[46]

However, the problem to be addressed by the court was not to allot the responsibility for the massacre to Germany or the Soviet Union, but to attribute the crime to at least one of the twenty-four dignitaries of the Nazi state.[47] The task of the charge was thus to establish a link between the reproached acts and the defendants. On hearings, however, the Soviet prosecutor proved to be unable to name the person in charge for the execution of the massacre[48], as well as the supposed guilty among the defendants[49].

In spite of this bankruptcy of the charge, Nikitchenko tried to make pass in force the Soviet point of view and did not hesitate to claim the inadequacy of the statutes of the court. This failed and the name of Katyn did not appear in the verdict.

Kovalski
04-05-2007, 02:11 AM
Hello mate Polar.;)
Tell me please how many time more you will call the west Ukraine and Belorussian territories as Polish?
Is it a polish historic imperialism? Or simply short memory? ;)
BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they "suddenly" found the graves?

Cheers.

Chevan,
you're singing the same old song again! :)

On 17th of September 1939 Soviet Union DID invaded POLISH TERRITORY.
It was under a POLISH rule, not ukrainian nor belorussian.
It's a different problem, who were the inhabitants : Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Jewish or German.
The land was polish. Your fatherland agreed to give it to Poland on the strengh of Peace Treaty signed in Riga in 1921. So stop messing with the facts and naming, because it might misinform other members of this forum.

By the way, if you want to go into details in each discussion, why don't you discuss the all of Russian territories. I wonder how much "russian" they are.

Chevan
04-06-2007, 07:58 AM
Chevan I don't wrote this post but I answer for you question. In september 1939 Soviet Union invade Poland and what is name and who belonged this territory now don't changed this fact.

Not so simply mate.
You call it as invasion to the "polish" territories which indeed was captured by the poland in resault of collapse of Russian Imperia. In this territories there were a minority of poles - moreover the polish authorities used the repressions agains national elements and surppressed them.
Certainly USSR's aim was not libarate the Ukraine and Belorussia but to join it to the rest of UkrSR and BelSR in the composition of USSR.


BTW not only Nazi try use "Katyn massacre" as excellent propaganda tools
That's right this was mostly propoganda.
During the Cold war our USA "partners" used is wery succsesfull

Cheers.

Polar
04-06-2007, 03:08 PM
Not so simply mate.
You call it as invasion to the "polish" territories which indeed was captured by the poland in resault of collapse of Russian Imperia.
I ask you again. When area of Lviv was part of Russian Imperia?
Poland newborn after 123 years becuse all 3 empires what doing patrision of Poland was collapse. Did you think that we don't deserv of indepedent country because they collapse?


In this territories there were a minority of poles - moreover the polish authorities used the repressions agains national elements and surppressed them.
Yes Polish were a minority but was the bigest national group on this terrain.
Abuot what's repressions you wrote?
BTW Not at all terrain invade by Soviet Union, Poles was minority.


That's right this was mostly propoganda.
During the Cold war our USA "partners" used is wery succsesfull
What was propaganda? Did fact that Soviet mourdered 20.000 polish citizen or did they try devolve a responsibility on Germans?

Chevan
04-09-2007, 02:25 AM
I ask you again. When area of Lviv was part of Russian Imperia?
And when the this part of Poland was not part of Russian Imperia?
The territory of Western Ukraine was part of Russian Imperia since the last devision of Poland.Tak?



Poland newborn after 123 years becuse all 3 empires what doing patrision of Poland was collapse. Did you think that we don't deserv of indepedent country because they collapse?

You deserve it but your independent should not be the problem for the neigbourg states like Ukraine and Belorussia. This rat imperialistic policy which began Poland in 1919 with relation to the neighbors in the east it did not contribute to the independence of other peoples.



Yes Polish were a minority but was the bigest national group on this terrain.
Abuot what's repressions you wrote?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0\
At this time in the West Ukraine, which entered the composition of Poland, the policy of polonization was achieved, national oppression was strengthened. Answer to it became the lift of nationalistic movement, immediately assumed forced forms. With the accession to power in Poland as a result of coup d'etat of 1926 of Jozef Pilsudskiy here were established the authoritarian regime, known as "sanitation". Political opposition was pursued by lawful means and power methods. With respect to the national minorities was conducted the policy of "cultural suppression", which in autumn 1930 developed into mass repressions against the Ukrainian population of Galicia and Volyn ("pacification").
The subdivisions of the Polish police and army were introduced into more than 800 villages, were arrested more than 2 thousand people, Ukrainian organizations were liquidated, are burnt about 500 houses. The component part of "pacification" became Ukrainian pogroms from the side of Polish chauvinistic groupings.
Things it reached the point that into 1932 Leagues of Nations it condemned the actions of Polish government with respect to the Ukrainian population.



What was propaganda? Did fact that Soviet mourdered 20.000 polish citizen or did they try devolve a responsibility on Germans?
And what we had the court desicion already?
I think you my frined forget there are too much "dark spots" in this sad story.

Lexa
04-09-2007, 04:36 AM
And when the this part of Poland was not part of Russian Imperia?
The territory of Western Ukraine was part of Russian Imperia since the last devision of Poland.

Area of Lvov belonged to Austria after the partition of Poland. As far as I rememeber, this territory belonged to Russia only several years in WW1.



And what we had the court desicion already?
I think you my frined forget there are too much "dark spots" in this sad story.
The court desicion is not needed for each historical event.
Anyway no one court will be of use for a convinced denier ;)

Chevan
04-09-2007, 07:35 AM
Area of Lvov belonged to Austria after the partition of Poland. As far as I rememeber, this territory belonged to Russia only several years in WW1.

Indeed less than one year Lvov belonged to the Russian Imperia since september 1914 untill august of 1915


The court desicion is not needed for each historical event.
Anyway no one court will be of use for a convinced denier ;)
The investigation of russian-polish comission is still not finished. So in this way we could make the conclusions. There are too much controvercal facts here.

Panzerknacker
04-09-2007, 08:01 AM
German propaganda about the massacre:

(in French)

If the soviets win the war...Katyn for everybody.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c9/Katyn_partout.jpg/250px-Katyn_partout.jpg

Polar
04-09-2007, 08:20 AM
Indeed less than one year Lvov belonged to the Russian Imperia since september 1914 untill august of 1915
Sorry not belonged but occupied.


The investigation of russian-polish comission is still not finished. So in this way we could make the conclusions. There are too much controvercal facts here.

from Wiki

The Soviet Union continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990, when it acknowledged that the NKVD secret police had in fact committed the massacres of over 20,000 Polish soldiers and intelligentsia and the subsequent cover-up.[7] The Russian government has admitted Soviet responsibility for the massacres, although it does not classify them as war crimes or as acts of genocide, as this would have necessitated the prosecution of surviving perpetrators, which is what the Polish government has requested.[8] It also does not classify the dead as the victims of Stalinist repressions, in effect barring their formal posthumous rehabilitation. Since "for 50 years, the Soviet Union concealed the truth" [1] some, particularly in Russia, continue to believe the original Soviet explanation that it had been the Germans who had killed the Poles.
As you see are controvercal facts but even soviet and Russian gouvernemet not questioned theirs resposability for this fact

Polar
04-09-2007, 09:03 AM
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%...8%D0%BD%D0%B0\
At this time in the West Ukraine, which entered the composition of Poland, the policy of polonization was achieved, national oppression was strengthened. Answer to it became the lift of nationalistic movement, immediately assumed forced forms. With the accession to power in Poland as a result of coup d'etat of 1926 of Jozef Pilsudskiy here were established the authoritarian regime, known as "sanitation". Political opposition was pursued by lawful means and power methods. With respect to the national minorities was conducted the policy of "cultural suppression", which in autumn 1930 developed into mass repressions against the Ukrainian population of Galicia and Volyn ("pacification").
The subdivisions of the Polish police and army were introduced into more than 800 villages, were arrested more than 2 thousand people, Ukrainian organizations were liquidated, are burnt about 500 houses. The component part of "pacification" became Ukrainian pogroms from the side of Polish chauvinistic groupings.
Things it reached the point that into 1932 Leagues of Nations it condemned the actions of Polish government with respect to the Ukrainian population. Yes Russian Wikipedia always give as good info but always missing somthing


from english Wikipedia
The Ukrainian Military Organization (Ukrainian: Українська Військова Організація, UVO) was a Ukrainian resistance and sabotage movement active in Poland's Eastern Lesser Poland during the years between the world wars. Initially headed by Yevhen Konovalets, it promoted the idea of armed struggle for the independence of Ukraine.

Created in August of 1920 in Prague, the UVO was a secret military and political movement. Initially operating in all countries with Ukrainian minorities (that is Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bolshevik Russia and Romania), with time it concentrated on terrorist and educative actions in Poland only. It was also active among the Ukrainian diaspora abroad, most notably in Germany, Lithuania, Austria and the Free City of Danzig.

Apart from military education of the Ukrainian youth, the UVO tried to prevent all kinds of cooperation between Ukrainians and Polish authorities. To further that cause, it resorted to terrorism and organized a number of assassination attempts on some of the most renown Polish and Ukrainian politicians, some of which were successful. Among such attempts were failed assault on Józef Piłsudski and Voivod of Lwów Kazimierz Grabowski on September 25, 1921, a successful murder of an Ukrainian poet Sydir Tverdohlib in 1922, failed attack on president of Poland Stanisław Wojciechowski in 1924 and deputy chairman of the BBWR party Tadeusz Hołówka. It also organized an assault on the Eastern Trade Fairs organized in Lwów in 1929. The terrorist actions of the UVO became one of the reasons for creation of the Polish Border Defence Corps.

Although formally it existed until World War II, between 1929 and 1934 it became part of the newly-formed Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Apart from Yevhen Konovalets, notable leaders of the UVO included Andrii Melnyk and Y. Indyshevskyi.

Chevan
04-09-2007, 11:53 PM
Sorry not belonged but occupied.

Thats right Polar it was occuped.




As you see are controvercal facts but even soviet and Russian gouvernemet not questioned theirs resposability for this fact

Not so simply.
Indeed the some of contemporary historians doubt in the truth of documents which Gorbachev passed to the Jaryzelskij in 1990. The reason of falsification is very simply. Losing the pover inside the USSR Gorbachev has tryed to get the support from the West.He will to be the "honest" and was ready to get the responsibility of USSR for the all evil (real and virtual). Trying to get the foreign support ( particulary from Poland) he was ready to tell whatever the poles wish.
The so called "Beria's note" where he ordered to execute the 14 000 of poles today is very controversial coz there a lot of mistakes and lacks.
Certainly the polish side which is unknown on the nuances of NKVD correspondence take is as undoubted trues. But here is a some seriouse mistakes.
Allthose mistakes together with the obvious will of Gorbachev get the politic profit from the situation forces to conclude the Gorbachev could simply falsify the documents.
After the collaps of USSR the Yeltsyn was ready to do everything to to be marked off from the Communist past. He didn't knew the details of the matters.But he difinatelly tryed to use all the "compromising material" against Communist party.
Eternally tipsy it was ready to agree with all charges and to take entire responsibility only so that the International Monetary Fund would continue to give credits to its approximated. In this case Yeltsin thought only about the support of the "democratic course" of in the West i.e. personally him and his oligarhy.
So he also has very "convictible reason" to indisputably agree with the poles.
Not so far in the russian press has bacome the articles which more critically explained the events in Katyn.
Considering the deep politisation of this question they final answer could be very hard. The continie of investigation must help us to open the true. I think the will of both sides is really find the truth.


Cheers.

Chevan
04-10-2007, 12:06 AM
Yes Russian Wikipedia always give as good info but always missing somthing
You right as always dear Polar.
The full picture we could to see only reading the other wiki.
But tell me please firstly : what was before- egg or the chicken?
I mean what was before - ukrainian nationalist-terrorists of polish repressions of ukrains?;)
BTW do you know in the soviets also called the ukrains nationalists as the terrorists.
It was later after WW2 when the "forest brothers" from western Ukraine got the partisan war with the NKVD.
And do you know what's was most RIDICULOUS? In the west they were called as the "fighters for independent Ukraine" against the soviet invaiders. :D Ha Ha
Don't you think is it strange the English WIKI use the "Soviet language" to the Ukrains nationalists?

Polar
04-10-2007, 01:25 AM
Not so simply.
Indeed the some of contemporary historians doubt in the truth of documents which Gorbachev passed to the Jaryzelskij in 1990. The reason of falsification is very simply. Losing the pover inside the USSR Gorbachev has tryed to get the support from the West.He will to be the "honest" and was ready to get the responsibility of USSR for the all evil (real and virtual). Trying to get the foreign support ( particulary from Poland) he was ready to tell whatever the poles wish.
The so called "Beria's note" where he ordered to execute the 14 000 of poles today is very controversial coz there a lot of mistakes and lacks.
Certainly the polish side which is unknown on the nuances of NKVD correspondence take is as undoubted trues. But here is a some seriouse mistakes.
Allthose mistakes together with the obvious will of Gorbachev get the politic profit from the situation forces to conclude the Gorbachev could simply falsify the documents.
After the collaps of USSR the Yeltsyn was ready to do everything to to be marked off from the Communist past. He didn't knew the details of the matters.But he difinatelly tryed to use all the "compromising material" against Communist party.
Eternally tipsy it was ready to agree with all charges and to take entire responsibility only so that the International Monetary Fund would continue to give credits to its approximated. In this case Yeltsin thought only about the support of the "democratic course" of in the West i.e. personally him and his oligarhy.
So he also has very "convictible reason" to indisputably agree with the poles.
Not so far in the russian press has bacome the articles which more critically explained the events in Katyn.
Considering the deep politisation of this question they final answer could be very hard. The continie of investigation must help us to open the true. I think the will of both sides is really find the truth.


Cheers.
Sorry Chevan but yours "explanation" remember me that in today world are peoples who questioned holocaust and name this fact as great bleff.

If Gorbachev want have support from Poland he could remove Red Army soldiers from Poland. But he didn't do it. Yes you have right document could be simply falsify but not this what was finded in grave.

Lexa
04-10-2007, 01:41 AM
Indeed the some of contemporary historians doubt in the truth of documents which Gorbachev passed to the Jaryzelskij in 1990. The reason of falsification is very simply. Losing the pover inside the USSR Gorbachev has tryed to get the support from the West.He will to be the "honest" and was ready to get the responsibility of USSR for the all evil (real and virtual). Trying to get the foreign support ( particulary from Poland) he was ready to tell whatever the poles wish.
The so called "Beria's note" where he ordered to execute the 14 000 of poles today is very controversial coz there a lot of mistakes and lacks.
Certainly the polish side which is unknown on the nuances of NKVD correspondence take is as undoubted trues. But here is a some seriouse mistakes.
Allthose mistakes together with the obvious will of Gorbachev get the politic profit from the situation forces to conclude the Gorbachev could simply falsify the documents.
After the collaps of USSR the Yeltsyn was ready to do everything to to be marked off from the Communist past. He didn't knew the details of the matters.But he difinatelly tryed to use all the "compromising material" against Communist party.
Eternally tipsy it was ready to agree with all charges and to take entire responsibility only so that the International Monetary Fund would continue to give credits to its approximated. In this case Yeltsin thought only about the support of the "democratic course" of in the West i.e. personally him and his oligarhy.
So he also has very "convictible reason" to indisputably agree with the poles.
Not so far in the russian press has bacome the articles which more critically explained the events in Katyn.
Cheers.

Gorbachov felt free enough to try to suppress uprisings in Lithuania and Georgia, but he was so weak and dependent from Western (and particularly Polish ;) ) support, that decided to falsify documents and admit guilt for the crime USSR never commited

Yeltsyn was independent enough from western opinion to start war in Chechnya, but at the same time, he was so deeply dependent that even didn't try to argue about the crime that has nothing common with our country.

And finally Putin, true patriot of Russia and criticist of the West (and not big fun of Poland ;) ), is keeping silence about this terrible falsification, while he is able to move away this shameful stain of Russia's reputation.

That sounds very probable ;)

Particularly interesting is why the West needed that all?

Egorka
04-10-2007, 01:53 AM
I never questiond fact repressions against the Ukrainian population in Poland. This was fact but look at it :

at it

What was the first Polish "mass represion" or Ukrainian terrorist actions ?
BTW did this was "mass represion"
for grops who have 4.800.000 peples?

Polar, have you also read the first article scan? :) I know it is just an opinion. But not a russian one... which makes it much more valueable, right? ;)

Polar
04-10-2007, 02:11 AM
Sorry Egorka i click Quote not this post what I want

My ansewer was for Chevan post



Originally Posted by Polar
Yes Russian Wikipedia always give as good info but always missing somthing

You right as always dear Polar.
The full picture we could to see only reading the other wiki.
But tell me please firstly : what was before- egg or the chicken?
I mean what was before - ukrainian nationalist-terrorists of polish repressions of ukrains?
BTW do you know in the soviets also called the ukrains nationalists as the terrorists.
It was later after WW2 when the "forest brothers" from western Ukraine got the partisan war with the NKVD.
And do you know what's was most RIDICULOUS? In the west they were called as the "fighters for independent Ukraine" against the soviet invaiders. Ha Ha
Don't you think is it strange the English WIKI use the "Soviet language" to the Ukrains nationalists?


and this article "POLAND'S TROUBLED COURSE IN RE-ESTABLISHING AN OLD NATION
Frequent Clashes With Minorities Have Marked Her History Since Rebirth
New York Times, 13-March-1932."

Chevan
04-11-2007, 12:24 AM
Gorbachov felt free enough to try to suppress uprisings in Lithuania and Georgia, but he was so weak and dependent from Western (and particularly Polish ;) ) support, that decided to falsify documents and admit guilt for the crime USSR never commited

Lexa is it your favorite method to innerrapt the discussion and quielty substitute the concepts ?
What relation has the decision of Politburoo which pitfully tryed to stop the desintegration of USSR and stop the beginning the bloody civil war in Kavkaz( this is obligation of any govenment) to the personal desicion of Gorbachev to say the "true" the poles?


Yeltsyn was independent enough from western opinion to start war in Chechnya, but at the same time, he was so deeply dependent that even didn't try to argue about the crime that has nothing common with our country.

And who did you say the West forbid him to began the war in Checnij in 1994?;)
The little blody war in the territory of Russia was very preferably for the some rusofobs (like Zbignev Bzeginskij ) in here.
If the Yeltsyn had let the Army to do its work the Chechen terorism has finished in the 1995 already. But he with his "oligarhy family" prefered to be listen the "western friends" and ordered the army to stop. In fact the army command was constantly under political pressure from the Moscow.
This coused the continie of the war and much more victims among civil population.


And finally Putin, true patriot of Russia and criticist of the West (and not big fun of Poland ), is keeping silence about this terrible falsification, while he is able to move away this shameful stain of Russia's reputation.

firstly what relation Putin has to the conclusion the polish-russian comission which still did not finished its investigation work?
Secondary the USSR simpy denied the participation in the Katyn - did it help the soviet reputation in the world?;)
The problem of Katyn IMO is the too much politization. Instead of hard work we just see the constant political claims which every side used in its interests.Nothing more.


Particularly interesting is why the West needed that all?
And why did the west was needed in the falsification of the presents of Mass destruction wearpon in Iraq? I don't know. May be you know the answer.

Chevan
04-11-2007, 12:35 AM
Sorry Chevan but yours "explanation" remember me that in today world are peoples who questioned holocaust and name this fact as great bleff.

Oh its something news Polar.;) Nice associations the Katyn with Holocaust.
Very originally.
BTW do yourself know the jews nevel let to compare any mass killing with holocoust. This is only for jews.


If Gorbachev want have support from Poland he could remove Red Army soldiers from Poland. But he didn't do it.

Oh the Red Army still in Poland i din't know it.;)


Yes you have right document could be simply falsify but not this what was finded in grave.
The documents which were finded by Nazy in 1943?

Chevan
04-11-2007, 12:56 AM
What was the first Polish "mass represion" or Ukrainian terrorist actions ?

Doesn't matter nowadays.
But the reason why the terrorist killed the civilians we still don't listen.
BTW Do you wish to say the soviet suppression of UPA was ligitime becouse the ukrains terrorists killed the soviet sitizents?


BTW did this was "mass represion"
for grops who have 4.800.000 peples?
Well i don't know was it the "mass". But burning the 500 houses don't look like the humatitarian action;)

Polar
04-11-2007, 03:20 AM
Oh its something news Polar.;) Nice associations the Katyn with Holocaust.

Very originally.
BTW do yourself know the jews nevel let to compare any mass killing with holocoust. This is only for jews. [/QUOTE]
I never compare holocoust and Katyn I only compare yours "revelations" about Katyn with "revelations" neo-nazi who questioned holocaust.



Oh the Red Army still in Poland i din't know it.;)
Chevan did you know when and who remove Red Army soldiers from Poland? If not try find some info and after that write.


The documents which were finded by Nazy in 1943?No, about documents find in grave in Miednoje and Charkov in 1991, 1994 and 1995 when grave was opened. In 1943 German find only about 4000 bodies.

Chevan
04-11-2007, 03:54 AM
I never compare holocoust and Katyn I only compare yours "revelations" about Katyn with "revelations" neo-nazi who questioned holocaust.
And who did you say the the everybody questioned in 6 millions of victims ( not in the holocoust at all) are the neo-nazy?;)



Chevan did you know when and who remove Red Army soldiers from Poland? If not try find some info and after that write.

Really it was "Solidarity" who fought against soviet tanks;)?
If seriouse dou you know when WAS DEVELOPED AND SIGNED the plans of withdrawing the soviet troops from the Eastern Europe?
My notice:
IT was far untill the Yeltsyn has come to the power in the end of 1992


No, about documents find in grave in Miednoje and Charkov in 1991, 1994 and 1995 when grave was opened. In 1943 German find only about 4000 bodies.

And how many was founded the bodies in Mednoj and Charcov and what evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners ?

Polar
04-11-2007, 06:31 AM
And how many was founded the bodies in Mednoj and Charcov and what evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners ?

Between April 3 and may 19, 1940, 6,311 Polish officers and policeman from the Ostashkov POW camp were brought to the area of Mednoye and subsequently shot to death behind the village of Yamka.
This was confirmed by Dmitrij S. Tokariew chief NKVD in Kalinin (now Tver) during russian invistgation.
In 1991 was opened only one grave with 243 bodies polish policeman ( they have parts polish uniform). Documents , personall stuff, and 2 diaries in good condition are evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners. In 1994-95 was opened all 23 mass grave but only 4 was completled explored.
In 1991 was identification personality 13 persons. All person was on NKVD transports list ( this documents was give by Gorbachev to Jaryzelskij in 1990)
http://www.osrp1939.policja.katowice.pl/foto/rzeczy1.jpg
BTW Did Miednoje was under Germany occupation during war?

Between 1994-1996 in Charkow was fouded 75 grave peoples what was mourdered by Stalin regime. In 15 (biggest) graves was fouded 4200 bodies with polish uniforms, personall stuff and elements polish equiptment. In 60 others graves are 2800 citizen of Charkov mourdered 1937-1938.

Polar
04-11-2007, 07:52 AM
Doesn't matter nowadays.
But the reason why the terrorist killed the civilians we still don't listen.
BTW Do you wish to say the soviet suppression of UPA was ligitime becouse the ukrains terrorists killed the soviet sitizents?

I think yes.
I heard that nowdays citizen Ukrain are divde in theirs opinion about UPA.

Panzerknacker
04-11-2007, 07:55 PM
POLAND'S TROUBLED COURSE IN RE-ESTABLISHING AN OLD NATION

Frequent Clashes With Minorities Have Marked Her History Since Rebirth
New York Times, 13-March-1932.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/244/452994650_0a54bd082e_o.gif




I could be wrong but i think this topic is for the Katyn massacre aniversary, so....What is the purpose of this scans, ? justifing is some way the killings?


In any case those are off-topic, please no more.

Chevan
04-12-2007, 07:38 AM
Between April 3 and may 19, 1940, 6,311 Polish officers and policeman from the Ostashkov POW camp were brought to the area of Mednoye and subsequently shot to death behind the village of Yamka.
This was confirmed by Dmitrij S. Tokariew chief NKVD in Kalinin (now Tver) during russian invistgation.

Stop here !
Where did you read the testimonies of Tokariew?


In 1991 was opened only one grave with 243 bodies polish policeman ( they have parts polish uniform). Documents , personall stuff, and 2 diaries in good condition are evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners. In 1994-95 was opened all 23 mass grave but only 4 was completled explored.

Firstly this is not right to conclude the 243 bodies means the killing of another 6 000 prisoners.
Sec how could you prove the single witness Tokarev was really independent . Was he more independent that the Germans generals who "confirmed" in the 1945 for the Stalin the Katyn was made by the Nazy.
BTW you did not say the not all of the 243 bodies were dressed in polish uniform.
Some of the bodies ( about 60) were the remains of soviet citizents which were founded at that same grave. It was not the place of execution only poles.


In 1991 was identification personality 13 persons. All person was on NKVD transports list ( this documents was give by Gorbachev to Jaryzelskij in 1990)
And how could you explane the fact the some of the people from this list were found alive in post war Poland?


BTW Did Miednoje was under Germany occupation during war?

The frontline brought via the Mednoe for some days. The Maednoe was in the GErmans hand for two days.


Between 1994-1996 in Charkow was fouded 75 grave peoples what was mourdered by Stalin regime. In 15 (biggest) graves was fouded 4200 bodies with polish uniforms, personall stuff and elements polish equiptment. In 60 others graves are 2800 citizen of Charkov mourdered 1937-1938.

Again what the was the method the exact determination the NKVD work?
Mabe the Germans could not to shoot 4200 mens in on sity?
Moreover why they found the the polis garves in 1943 in the deep forest but was not capable to find simular mass graves near the Charcov one of the biggest sity of Ukraine.
May becouse its was the ITS work.
And please what providence the 2800 citizents which were murdered in the 1937-38?
Maybe each of them had the newspaper or letter to the home with date;)
Sure NKVD killed a lot of people by i/m simply could not believe they let the prisoners to save the letters and newspaper in its pockets.

Cheers.

Lexa
04-13-2007, 02:09 AM
Lexa is it your favorite method to innerrapt the discussion and quielty substitute the concepts ?

Ok, Chevan, let's fix the concepts. What is you point? Do you deny the responsibility of NKVD for Katyn crime?



What relation has the decision of Politburoo which pitfully tryed to stop the desintegration of USSR and stop the beginning the bloody civil war in Kavkaz( this is obligation of any govenment) to the personal desicion of Gorbachev to say the "true" the poles?

So that was personal decision of Gorbachov? And where Politburo was, and why they didn't try to stop it? What about General Prosecutor of USSR - did he know the truth? The General Prosecutution investigators, they were just West-loving traitors?


And who did you say the West forbid him to began the war in Checnij in 1994?;)

The West couldn't forbid something to Yeltsyn, but it steadily pressed on him with this question as well as with many others. Yelstyn often acted as emotional and unbalanced man, and he never was 100% obedient to the West. So I don't understand why he was so quiet and submissive particularly in Katyn case that he didn't even try to contest the responsibility of USSR.



firstly what relation Putin has to the conclusion the polish-russian comission which still did not finished its investigation work?

The Russian Military Prosecution has finished the investigation and it did come to conclusion that it was NKVD who killed the Poles. If they did it under pressure of Yeltsyn, then Putin could let them to disclose the truth. Why he didn't?



Secondary the USSR simpy denied the participation in the Katyn - did it help the soviet reputation in the world?;)

So Putin cares so much about Russia's reputation in the West's opinion that he is keeping silence about the falsification, and he forces all other people in his environment and in General Prosecution to do the same. It's strange because recently in Munich he said a lot of unleasant things right in the face of the Westerners. Why should he be silent about the falsifications of Katyn documents? It wouldn't be "simple denial". If you are right, then Russia has the evidence of falsifications, alive witnesses etc. If so, today is the right moment to justify ourselves. Nobody can press on Russia, niether evil uncle Zbig nor smbdy else ;) And RF has much more credibility of the West than USSR had.



The problem of Katyn IMO is the too much politization. Instead of hard work we just see the constant political claims which every side used in its interests.Nothing more.

I agree. The problem is badly politized, mostly by Poland. It should be discussed by historians, not politicians. Using this question for loud antirussian political declarations is disgusting.



And why did the west was needed in the falsification of the presents of Mass destruction wearpon in Iraq? I don't know. May be you know the answer.
Well, I have an idea: may be they wanted to attack Iraq? ;)
But what about Katyn? Why the West needs German guilt for Katyn being ascribed to Russia?

Polar
04-13-2007, 02:39 AM
Stop here !
Where did you read the testimonies of Tokariew?.
Well I don't speak in russian and I found info about his testimonies in few polish books and few website and of cours in the greats source infa as russian wikipedia (I use internet translator)



(...)Расследование велось до конца 2004 г.; в ходе его были допрошены свидетели и участники расправ над поляками. В частности, был допрошен один из участников расстрелов в Твери Д. С. Токарев. Из его показаний объяснилась такая деталь, как наличие немецких пуль. Он рассказал, что руководивший расстрелами некто Блохин привез с собой целый чемодан немецких вальтеров, ибо советские наганы не выдерживали перегревались. .(...)
Could you tranlate it Chevan ?




Firstly this is not right to conclude the 243 bodies means the killing of another 6 000 prisoners. Yes but in 1991 was first exhumation in 1994 and 1995 was next. The effect this exhumation confirmed testimonies of Tokariew


Sec how could you prove the single witness Tokarev was really independent . Was he more independent that the Germans generals who "confirmed" in the 1945 for the Stalin the Katyn was made by the Nazy.
I don't must nothing prov. This was doing in 2005 by Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov who end Russian invistigation.
BTW Tokarev wasn't single witness. He was highest member of NKVD confusion on this massacre who was still alive in 1991.


Was he more independent that the Germans generals who "confirmed" in the 1945 for the Stalin the Katyn was made by the Nazy.
When I look on case Lev Kamenev, Grigory Zinoviev, Tukhachevsky and others victims Stalin my answer is Yes Tokarev was really independent.




BTW you did not say the not all of the 243 bodies were dressed in polish uniform.
Some of the bodies ( about 60) were the remains of soviet citizents which were founded at that same grave. It was not the place of execution only poles.
Yes this place was use by NKVD earlier
BTW nowdays Russian gov very often describe Poles who was mourdered during ww2 as Soviet citizens.


And how could you explane the fact the some of the people from this list were found alive in post war Poland?. Did you can prove it and give me theirs names?


The frontline brought via the Mednoe for some days. The Maednoe was in the GErmans hand for two days.
Oh German in 2 days shoot 6000 peoples, transfer to wood, digin grave for bodies , set tree and grass. Doing all this in winter and front area, and Red Army who libereted this area two days later don't find anything by 50 years?



Again what the was the method the exact determination the NKVD work?
Mabe the Germans could not to shoot 4200 mens in on sity?
Moreover why they found the the polis garves in 1943 in the deep forest but was not capable to find simular mass graves near the Charcov one of the biggest sity of Ukraine.
May becouse its was the ITS work..
First this was in Pyatikhatki near Kharkow
or mayby they don't sreach them
BTW


from Wikipedia
During World War II Kharkiv was the site of several military engagements. The city was captured by Nazi Germany and its military allies, recaptured by the Red Army, captured again twice by the Nazis and then finally liberated on August 23, 1943. Seventy percent of the city was destroyed and tens of thousands of the inhabitants were killed.

Katyn was I think longer on german occupation then Kharkiv. Did was as many times libereted?
BTW the first grave was fouded in Katyn in 1942 by polish slave worker. They fouded 2 bodies with polish uniform. They have info form local russian peoples. This was reported to germans but in this time they wasn't intrested this fact. But after fall Stalingrad they interested it and use in propaganda.


And please what providence the 2800 citizents which were murdered in the 1937-38?
Maybe each of them had the newspaper or letter to the home with date;)
Sure NKVD killed a lot of people by i/m simply could not believe they let the prisoners to save the letters and newspaper in its pockets..
Well mayby you shold ask yours gov and gov Ukrain because this was invistigation doing by it.

Rus-Loh
04-15-2007, 06:00 PM
В частности, был допрошен один из участников расстрелов в Твери Д. С. Токарев. Из его показаний объяснилась такая деталь, как наличие немецких пуль. Он рассказал, что руководивший расстрелами некто Блохин «привез с собой целый чемодан немецких „вальтеров“, ибо советские наганы не выдерживали — перегревались.
Could you tranlate it Chevan?

Transleting:


In particular, one of participants of executions in Tver D.S.Tokarev has been interrogated. From his(its) indications such detail, as presence of German bullets was explained. It(he) has told, that somebody supervised executions Блохин « has brought with itself the whole suitcase German "вальтеров" for the Soviet revolvers did not maintain - overheated.

The matter is that from the very first publication about Tokarev's indications of journalist L.Elin in " The Moscow news " in 1990 has gone to walk versia, that German pistols have brought to Kalinin ostensibly because the Soviet revolvers overheated and failed.
However in the text of interrogation published in the Polish language in Poland, this reason speaks Tokarev completely differently (return translation with Polish on Russian):


"...Яблоков: Дмитрий Степанович, какое оружие имели Вы и другие офицеры НКВД ?
Токарев: Штатное оружие - ТТ. Я, правда, имел маленький карманный немецкий пистолет Вальтер. Но когда приехали Блохин, Синегубов и Кривенко, они привезли с собой целый чемодан пистолетов. Оказывается, пистолеты быстро изнашиваются. Поэтому они привезли их целый чемодан"...

on English:


"... Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, what weapon you had and other officers of People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs?
Tokarev: the Regular weapon - TT. I, the truth, had a small pocket German pistol Walter. But when have arrived Блохин, Синегубов and Кривенко, they have brought with themselves the whole suitcase of pistols. It appears, pistols quickly wear out. Therefore they have brought their whole suitcase "...

That is Tokarev in 1990 has declared opposite to a volume, that now suck round in Кatyn's discussions!

Chevan
04-16-2007, 05:02 AM
Guys, i feel duty to introduce for you the our new member Rus-Loh.;)
He is one of the most informed men in this theme in Russia.
His knowlege about this topic is rather deeper then the common views.
So i think he should be pretty usefull for uour discussion.

You are welcomeon a board ,mate.:D
Take the care about our members and enjoy the the discussion with our foreign friends.

Cheers.

Chevan
04-16-2007, 05:36 AM
Ok, Chevan, let's fix the concepts. What is you point? Do you deny the responsibility of NKVD for Katyn crime?

I've never told the NKVD was not able to kill the poles.
But there is TOO much controversal things in the "Goebbels version".
I think the truth is somewhere between


So that was personal decision of Gorbachov? And where Politburo was, and why they didn't try to stop it? What about General Prosecutor of USSR - did he know the truth? The General Prosecutution investigators, they were just West-loving traitors?

Why politburoo did stope him i don't exactly know. But he was the General Secretary of USSR at that time it was not easy to stop. Look to the president of USA today - the whole Congress ( and most of americans already ) voted agains war in Iraq but nothing could do to stop the Bush ;)
And the Gernaral Procesutor of USSR was a men of Gorbachev - is it tells you something about?


The West couldn't forbid something to Yeltsyn, but it steadily pressed on him with this question as well as with many others. Yelstyn often acted as emotional and unbalanced man, and he never was 100% obedient to the West. So I don't understand why he was so quiet and submissive particularly in Katyn case that he didn't even try to contest the responsibility of USSR.

Firstly .
The west feel good enough when "not 100% obedient" to the West alchoholic Yeltsin ordered to shot the Russian Parliament in october 1993. Do you remember how did the West called the Yeltsys after this barbarian action - Right, the "first russian democrat"
And honestly speakinf during this period Yeltsys had a much more importaint problem than to contest the responsibility of USSR.
Besides i've already told you why the Yeltsys indisputable supported the Goebbels version- he simply try to bury the Communist party. He simply had no a any wishes to dispute this themev.



The Russian Military Prosecution has finished the investigation and it did come to conclusion that it was NKVD who killed the Poles. If they did it under pressure of Yeltsyn, then Putin could let them to disclose the truth. Why he didn't?

This so called "investigation" has a lot of lacks and sensless things as i told.
And Putin simply is not cable to disclose the truth. What relation Putin has to the "investigation" which was began by the Gorbachev?
The Katyn need the new more detailed research - this is obviously IMO.


So Putin cares so much about Russia's reputation in the West's opinion that he is keeping silence about the falsification, and he forces all other people in his environment and in General Prosecution to do the same. It's strange because recently in Munich he said a lot of unleasant things right in the face of the Westerners. Why should he be silent about the falsifications of Katyn documents? It wouldn't be "simple denial". If you are right, then Russia has the evidence of falsifications, alive witnesses etc. If so, today is the right moment to justify ourselves. Nobody can press on Russia, niether evil uncle Zbig nor smbdy else ;) And RF has much more credibility of the West than USSR had.

How much i have to repeat to you - Putin does not authorised to make the conclusions in that specific theme.
The true is not obvious, we need the investigation.The only parliamen could to organize it.


I agree. The problem is badly politized, mostly by Poland. It should be discussed by historians, not politicians. Using this question for loud antirussian political declarations is disgusting.
that's right


Well, I have an idea: may be they wanted to attack Iraq? ;)
But what about Katyn? Why the West needs German guilt for Katyn being ascribed to Russia?

And mabe the west simply wanted to destroy its enemy coalition ( soviet block) during the Cold War :D
i/e/ they had the simular aims like the Nazi in 1943????

Cheers.

Chevan
04-16-2007, 06:09 AM
Well I don't speak in russian and I found info about his testimonies in few polish books and few website and of cours in the greats source infa as russian wikipedia (I use internet translator)


Could you tranlate it Chevan ?

Well it was done by the Rus-loh.


Yes but in 1991 was first exhumation in 1994 and 1995 was next. The effect this exhumation confirmed testimonies of Tokariew

i've asked you about Tokarevs testimonies becouse i/m sure you did not read this.
So i wish to tell you that his "tells" could be demolished by the elementary criticism.
Look for instane at the controvercials of his tells in the post of Rus-loh.


I don't must nothing prov. This was doing in 2005 by Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov who end Russian invistigation.

Oh Really. Is it investigation has finished already?
Am i something passed ;)
BTW Tokarev wasn't single witness. He was highest member of NKVD confusion on this massacre who was still alive in 1991.
[/quote]
Another so called witness are also sounds very conrtoversative.
Just try to read it personaly.


When I look on case Lev Kamenev, Grigory Zinoviev, Tukhachevsky and others victims Stalin my answer is Yes Tokarev was really independent.

Oh common Polar
Were the Kamenev-Roselfeld and Zinoviev -Appelbaum the "victims"(You forget the "
innocent" Trozkij-Bernshtain)/
Don't forget those victims had its own hands full in blood.
And Tukhachevskiy was idiot who headed the sensless attack to the Warsaw in 1921.



Yes this place was use by NKVD earlier
BTW nowdays Russian gov very often describe Poles who was mourdered during ww2 as Soviet citizens.

What are the providences it was place of NKVD execution but not the simple common grave of perished soldiers?


Did you can prove it and give me theirs names?

OK give me just a few time.


Oh German in 2 days shoot 6000 peoples, transfer to wood, digin grave for bodies , set tree and grass. Doing all this in winter and front area, and Red Army who libereted this area two days later don't find anything by 50 years?

What are 6000 peoples?
Where get you idea of it. There were found only 270 bodies and only small part ( about 30-40) of them had a bullet hole in skills. Don't look like mass execution in Katyn right?



First this was in Pyatikhatki near Kharkow
or mayby they don't sreach them
BTW
And what was found in Pyatikhatki. Could you get a detai picture of it?


Katyn was I think longer on german occupation then Kharkiv. Did was as many times libereted?
BTW the first grave was fouded in Katyn in 1942 by polish slave worker. They fouded 2 bodies with polish uniform. They have info form local russian peoples. This was reported to germans but in this time they wasn't intrested this fact. But after fall Stalingrad they interested it and use in propaganda.

Sorry Polar but this proves ....nothing. Are you sure those two polish bodies were killed in 1940? I am not. And there is nothing special the germans weren't interested of it fact if themself did it. Just a interesting how this polish slave could surrive after that.



Well mayby you shold ask yours gov and gov Ukrain because this was invistigation doing by it.
Well i think you right in here.
I am actually have a coupe of question at my gov and i have to demand the new detailed investigation with participation of polish delegation.
I hope it will be much better that the pitfull political claims for each other.

Cheers.

Polar
04-16-2007, 07:31 AM
Oh common Polar
Were the Kamenev-Roselfeld and Zinoviev -Appelbaum the "victims"(You forget the "
innocent" Trozkij-Bernshtain)/
Don't forget those victims had its own hands full in blood.
And Tukhachevskiy was idiot who headed the sensless attack to the Warsaw in 1921.I don't forgot Trozkij becuse he don't have "trial" in USRR. Did you think that this gentlemans was doing everything what they confession
during "trial" ? Did they was killed because had blood in hands or reason was diffrent?






What are 6000 peoples?.
Chevan did you read what I write?
In 1991 in Miednoje was opened one grave with 243 bodies. Polish source give me info that 169 bodies have bullet hole in head.
The grave in Miednoje is 25. In 1994 and 1995 all graves was opened and four was have full exhumation.





And what was found in Pyatikhatki. Could you get a detai picture of it?
Now I don't have photos from exhumation Pyatikhatki.

Lexa
04-16-2007, 09:02 AM
Guys, i feel duty to introduce for you the our new member Rus-Loh.;)
He is one of the most informed men in this theme in Russia.

Yes, he's one of the most active Katyn deniers in the Russian internet :rolleyes:

Well mates I'm unable to participate in this senseless dispute anymore. I can only say sorry to Polish participants for what this thread has became.

Kovalski
04-16-2007, 09:09 AM
Yes, he's one of the most active Katyn deniers in the Russian internet :rolleyes:

Well mates I'm unable to participate in this senseless dispute anymore. I can only say sorry to Polish participants for what this thread has became.

Well, thanks Lexa! ;)
I believe that all of polish members do appreciate your statement.


Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Egorka
04-16-2007, 01:54 PM
Well mates I'm unable to participate in this senseless dispute anymore. I can only say sorry to Polish participants for what this thread has became.

Lexa and other honoroable polish members!

From your comments (especially by Lexa) I conclude that you really know most, if not everything, about the Katyn case. You know the arguments of your opponents, right? So could I kindly ask you to comparativaly present the facts of BOTH sides, leaving emotions behind.

I ask as some one who does not have anough specific knowledge about the Katyn, only general info.

Lexa, maybe it is senseless for you, because you know it all about. But I don't, so it is fulll of sense to me!

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 02:58 AM
Guys, i feel duty to introduce for you the our new member Rus-Loh.;)
He is one of the most informed men in this theme in Russia.
Cheers.

Thanks for a compliment, but it is not a truth .
My knowledge in "Katyn affair" are more smaller, than at Sergey Strygin or Vyacheslav Shved.
If I from time to time successfully deride supporters of the poland-nazi version it occurs not so much from my awareness, how many from their illiteracy.

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 03:44 AM
Chevan did you read what I write?
In 1991 in Miednoje was opened one grave with 243 bodies..

It is a lie.
In 1991 in Mednoe have been found not 243 bodies, but FRAGMENTS of 243 bodies. Including skulls... 226 (!)
About it Pole Peshkovsky directly writes:


"Это последний обнаруженный в Медное череп - 226-й"
[З. Пешковский. "...И увидел ямы смерти" Харьков-Медное-Катынь." Перевод С. Родевича. Польша, Русское издательство "Катажина Фли-эгер", 1995, с. 82]

Transleting:


" It is last found out in Mednoe a skull - 226-th "
[Z.Peshkovsky. "... Also has seen holes of death " Kharkov - Медное-Катынь ". S.Rodevicha's translation. Poland, Russian publishing house " Катаpжина Флиэгер ", 1995, p. 82]

Calculation of bodies then was conducted not on skulls, but on right foot bones. That it was very convenient for Poles:)
Except for that these bones not from one hole have been dug out. And from 35:


В Медном работы проводились 15-25 августа 1991 г. на площади пятиугольника 37х108х36х120х120 м. Было сделано 30 раскопов и 5 дополнительных зондажей. Обнаружены останки не менее чем 243 поляков.
[И.С.Яжборовская, А.Ю.Яблоков,В.С.Парсаданова. Катынский синдром в советско-польских отношениях. М.РОСПЭН, 2001, с.482]

Transleting:


In Mednoe works were carried out(spent) on August, 15-25, 1991 on the area of a pentagon 37х108х36х120х120 by m. It has been made 30 holes and 5 additional soundings. Remains not less than 243 Poles are found out.
[I.S.Jazhborovskaja, A.J.Jablokov, V.S.Parsadanova. Катынский a syndrome in the советско-Polish relations. М.РОСПЭН, 2001, p. 482]

Result - in opinion of supporters of the Poland-German version ALL Poles have been killed by a shot to head in a cellar of building Kalinin's NKVD and then buried in Mednoe.
But at excavation of 1991 appeared, that from 226 skulls bullet holes have only 169. And bullets have been found in general only in 5 (!) turtles.
From what follows, that 57 found remains completely precisely do not belong to Poles.

Kovalski
04-17-2007, 03:47 AM
If I from time to time successfully deride supporters of the poland-nazi version it occurs not so much from my awareness, how many from their illiteracy.

Rus-Loh,

I assume that "poland-nazi version" is just a version which is not consistent with "soviet propaganda version", right?


Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 03:59 AM
I've never told the NKVD was not able to kill the poles.
Cheers.

It I shall tell.
The matter is that German sleeves which have been found in Mountains Kozjih as by Germans in 1943, and in 1994-95 by Poles have been made of STEEL.
And such cartridges with steel sleeves have started to be made in Germany only in the beginning of 1941.
Employees of NKVD in April, 1940 COULD NOT USE such cartridges.
Conclusion - Poles in Mountains Kozjih have been killed by nazis.

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 04:06 AM
Rus-Loh,
I assume that "poland-nazi version" is just a version which is not consistent with "soviet propaganda version", right?
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Explain the term " soviet propaganda version ", please:-)

Kovalski
04-17-2007, 05:58 AM
Explain the term " soviet propaganda version ", please:-)

According to this version, all polish officers, policemen, priests, doctors and others were murdered by Germans. We can also add all other attempts to deny of soviet guilt and refusal to recognize the Katyn Massacre as an act of genocide.

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 06:58 AM
According to this version, all polish officers, policemen, priests, doctors and others were murdered by Germans.

It is not "version" - it is truth.

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 06:59 AM
We can also add all other attempts to deny of soviet guilt and refusal to recognize the Katyn Massacre as an act of genocide.

It is from other opera :mrgreen:

Chevan
04-17-2007, 07:24 AM
I don't forgot Trozkij becuse he don't have "trial" in USRR. Did you think that this gentlemans was doing everything what they confession
during "trial" ? Did they was killed because had blood in hands or reason was diffrent?

Does not matter nowadays what for were they killed. In fact they all were a murders and deserved its fate.
The Trozkij was personaly guilted in the beginning of Big Red therror in 1918 when he ordered to kill 10 000 native russians. So i have no illusions about those bastards who were the "victims".


Chevan did you read what I write?
In 1991 in Miednoje was opened one grave with 243 bodies. Polish source give me info that 169 bodies have bullet hole in head.

The grave in Miednoje is 25. In 1994 and 1995 all graves was opened and four was have full exhumation.

Polar i've read it enough attentively, but where did you get idea in 1994-95 in Mednoe was founded the rest 5 800 of polish bodies?
To the heppines i hope our new russian friend in here could help us in the explanation the strange finds in Mednoe.


Now I don't have photos from exhumation Pyatikhatki.
Well i will try to search more infore

Cheers.

Kovalski
04-17-2007, 07:30 AM
It is not "version" - it is truth.

Oh Gosh!
Here we go again!!!

Honestly speaking, I'm bored with even reading the posts written by such "historians" :)

Have a nice day Rus-Loh.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Egorka
04-17-2007, 07:42 AM
Kovalski!

May I kindly ask you to answer to my post #41? Please!

.

Chevan
04-17-2007, 07:48 AM
According to this version, all polish officers, policemen, priests, doctors and others were murdered by Germans. We can also add all other attempts to deny of soviet guilt and refusal to recognize the Katyn Massacre as an act of genocide.

Well mate i think to say the NKVD could not to kill the some of polish prisoners is wrong IMO.
Certainly there is no any doubts thet NKVD killed some of a poles like as they killed a lot of russian and others.
But to undisputible declaration the mass killing in KATYN it was the NKVD work is mistake. Becouse there a lot of problems in so called "Gorbachev investigation" in 1991.
Today we see a lot of mistakes and simply bulshit in so called "testimonies" the peoples like Tokarev.
That's what he said in the one case

In particular, one of participants of executions in Tver D.S.Tokarev has been interrogated. From his indications such detail, as presence of German bullets was explained. It(he) has told, that somebody supervised executions Блохин has brought with itself the whole suitcase German "Walters" for the Soviet Nagan-revolvers did not maintain - overheated

... and in the other case

Tokarev: the Regular weapon - pisol TT. I the truth, had a small pocket German pistol Walter. But when have arrived Blohin, Sinegubov and Krivenko, they have brought with themselves the whole suitcase of pistols. It appears, pistols quickly wear out. Therefore they have brought their whole suitcase "...
i.e he told the one time it was the the regular soviet pistol TT, in the other case he called it as Nagan revolver ;)) !!!!
Don't need to repeat you guys NO ONE independent court in the world do not take the "testimony" of former NKVD agent who could not discern the Nagan from TT ;)
This is just a little contraduction of the testimonies which only proved for us - we need the new detail investigation.

Cheers.

Chevan
04-17-2007, 07:52 AM
It is not "version" - it is truth.

I will not be so sure for that i just know in this sad story there are a lot of "dark spots".
So to tell the former "soviet version" was a true - this is equally the affirmation the "Goebbels version" is the true.
The true is somwhere between IMO;)


Cheers.

Kovalski
04-17-2007, 08:21 AM
Kovalski!

May I kindly ask you to answer to my post #41? Please!

.

Dear Egorka,

what kind of answer do you expect from me?
I'm unable to scan hundreds of pages of documents, books, maps, etc. and post it for you.
With all respect, but I'm not going to prove something that was proved long time ago. Nobody in the world has a problem with acceptation of historical facts, apart from group of "historical fanatics".
If it is too hard for them to deal with their own history, that's a pity, but it is not my problem.
It's nothing personal Egorka. I ain't no fanatic. I'm aware of dark facts in Poland and I don't deny them, but I just don't feel obliged to continue discussion over obvious facts.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Polar
04-17-2007, 08:26 AM
I will not be so sure for that i just know in this sad story there are a lot of "dark spots".
So to tell the former "soviet version" was a true - this is equally the affirmation the "Goebbels version" is the true.
The true is somwhere between IMO;)


Cheers.
Look on this topic on another forum
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36517

Egorka
04-17-2007, 08:43 AM
Look on this topic on another forum
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36517

Polar, an interesting link to another forum. Some interesting facts mentioned there... unfortunately (or as better say as always) spiced with plenty of emptional epithetы and presented a bit one sided from Polish point of view.

But it is OK. I understand! I really do.

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 02:07 PM
Oh Gosh!
Here we go again!!!
Honestly speaking, I'm bored with even reading the posts written by such "historians" :)
Have a nice day Rus-Loh.
Pozdrawiam, Kovalski

Typical reaction of the democrat...
To such people is not interesting that
1. In turtles of Poles killed in Mountains Kozjih there were bullets of typically German calibres
2. On hands of Poles killed in mountains Kozjih there were German cords
3. In tombs of Poles in Mountains Kozjih were steel (that is made not earlier than 1941) sleeves with German marks

To such all is clear beforehand...

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 02:13 PM
Well mate i think to say the NKVD could not to kill the some of polish prisoners is wrong IMO.
Cheers.

I too think, that in 1939-1940 a quantity of Poles could be executed in the USSR.
Was for what - in 1920 Poles have made set of war crimes concerning the peace population of Ukraine, Belarus and Soviet captured.

Rus-Loh
04-17-2007, 02:17 PM
Look on this topic on another forum
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36517

Well and that?
Internets - references and I can present set. About cooperation of nazis not only with NKVD, but also with UFO.
Here only DOCUMENTS find I can not.
As well as authors of these sites.

Chevan
04-18-2007, 06:09 AM
Guys i think some of us are misunderstanding this thread.
Where from the insulting has come? why do blow lip to each other.
I think the most inportain thing in here is just the mutual personal communication and friendship.


Typical reaction of the democrat...

Rus-loh firstly i wish to notice you the Kovalsky is my friend and i don't wish to hear the tupical inner russian prejudices in here.
We are all the democrats and i don't see the reasons not to think by this way.
We must to hold the our national emotions even if we are not agreable with opponents.

So please take the care for everybody who do not agree with you.
OK?:)

Cheers.

Chevan
04-18-2007, 06:44 AM
Look on this topic on another forum
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36517
My dear friend Polar ( i hope you think simulary regarding me).
There is nothing new for me in this link, do you know why?
I've readed a handreds of forums in Russia and i'm perfectly know the positions of both enemy sides. As you saw in the Lexa post we have a different views as pro-polish and as pro-soviet. My personal point is that the every side in the admits a great mistakes in the political hysteria. They simply ignores the some of importiant facts that i could ignore.
This link that you've indicated at me just showed for us the tupical "righ-view polish" song about Nazy-Soviet cooperation in 1939-40. Even if it is blowing up at this moment by the contemporary US/British/EU in "solidarity" ( indeed in the pure politic reasons) ,could we nevertheless declare the pre-war Poland as democratic state in the relation to its neigbourgs state?
Could we ignored the Nazy-Polish colloboration before 1939- i think no.
Becouse the Poland participated in the division of Chehoslovakia ONLY year before the own devision.We hotly discussed it in the early thread with other poles ( Kovalsky remembere it ;)) And i don't wish to repit it again.
I know a lot of links at the Russian forum where the our own "patriots" could absolutly prove the Poland was a simular agressor like and Nazy and USSR. But i will not becouse i know this is not able to help of our discussion.
Here we are study the history and we are learning the facts besides our primary task is to think in here.
So if you somewhere has read the it was "the somebody has proved something" why we could ignored some controversal facts aboud it, right?
If you are have no personal oppinion - this is not bed idea to get it in here.
So instead of insulting and balming eash other ( like it did the Lexa in his last post) we migh to begin the dialog although it hard for somebody.
But again the goal of our discussion must be the mutual respect to eash other.

Cheers

Rus-Loh
04-18-2007, 06:57 AM
Rus-loh firstly i wish to notice you the Kovalsky is my friend and i don't wish to hear the tupical inner russian prejudices in here.


Well.
I shall not name sir Kowalski "democrat" (this term at us in Russia already for a long time is perceived as a curse) if sir Kowalski will cease to put inverted commas in a word "historian" when he writes about me.

Chevan
04-18-2007, 07:09 AM
Well.
I shall not name sir Kowalski "democrat" (this term at us in Russia already for a long time is perceived as a curse) if sir Kowalski will cease to put inverted commas in a word "historian" when he writes about me.

You right.
Perhaps dear Kovalski will take own words back ?:)
I think the behaviour of Lexa was not admissible in here.
It seem he has no personal point about the controversial facts above. I think this is sensless to blame somebody as "deniers" at same time he admit he simply "believer".

Digger
04-18-2007, 07:18 AM
I've read this thread and I'm still confused. But i'm clear on a few things. Firstly there was a massacre. Who committed it? That would all depend on what version of events you believe. Perhaps the waters have been so muddied we may never truly know.

The indisputable fact is thousands of people were executed in cold blood by the orders of a murderous regime. If that regime was German or Soviet it may well be discussed for years to come. But I think to talk of the brutal deaths of thousands of people in such dispassionate terms is a great pity.

Regards digger.

Chevan
04-18-2007, 07:35 AM
I've read this thread and I'm still confused. But i'm clear on a few things. Firstly there was a massacre. Who committed it? That would all depend on what version of events you believe. Perhaps the waters have been so muddied we may never truly know.

The indisputable fact is thousands of people were executed in cold blood by the orders of a murderous regime. If that regime was German or Soviet it may well be discussed for years to come. But I think to talk of the brutal deaths of thousands of people in such dispassionate terms is a great pity.

Regards digger.

Well it seems for me i've understood you mate
Do you think this thread must be deducated to the victims of Katyn but not the discussion of who killed them.
I/m agree.
May be we need to open the new thread: "The Katyn:true and myths"?

Chevan
04-18-2007, 07:45 AM
I think this is importaint


To such people is not interesting that
1. In turtles of Poles killed in Mountains Kozjih there were bullets of typically German calibres

Well lets study this more carefully.
If the NKVD used a German pistols is it strange the skull of bodies in Kozij were from a bullet of german caliber?


2. On hands of Poles killed in mountains Kozjih there were German cords

Well you right this is undisputable fact of the polish side as i read.
So i heared the version the USSR had buyed the german cords in the 1930?
Could it be the true?


3. In tombs of Poles in Mountains Kozjih were steel (that is made not earlier than 1941) sleeves with German marks

Ops, this is new for me.
And how it was established the steel was made not early than 1941?

Rus-Loh
04-18-2007, 12:15 PM
If the NKVD used a German pistols is it strange the skull of bodies in Kozij were from a bullet of german caliber?

On points.

Whether employees of NKVD could shoot Poles from german's pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm.?

The answer - no, could not.
Pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm. were very big rarity in the USSR. Some thousand trunks of such calibre remained since times of revolution (from private weapon shops) and civil war (from interventionists).
These pistols were used as award weapon, and also given out as a hand arm to pilots and diplomatic couriers. In NKVD it use employees of a foreign department for performance of tasks on physical elimination of especially dangerous emigrants used them only.
There were some more thousand pistols of the Soviet manufacture of a design of Korovin of 1924. The design was the extremely unsuccessful - 56 details and very hard descent - and to the middle of 30th years these pistols have completely left the use because of breakages.
Accordingly for a small amount of pistols it was not required also an ammunition. All needs of the USSR for patrons of calibre 7,65 completely were provided with manufacture of such cartridges on Podolsk mechanical factory which began in 1925-26.
Any documents on purchases of the USSR in Germany in 20-30th years of pistols "Walter" in archives of the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs it is not found.
In Germany In 20th years of the USSR really bought in Germany pistols. But absolutely other pistols - "Mauser" of calibre of 7,63 mm. Documents on these transactions are. Except for that USSR has bought in Germany the license for manufacture of pistols "Mauser".

Whether could buy the USSR in Germany cords?
No, could not - in 20 - 30th years of the USSR itself actively sold hempen cords across all Europe.

As have defined, that steel sleeves have been made in 1941?
Have very simply defined - till 1941 steel sleeves were not made at all. Anywhere in the world. Germany started their release owing to sharp deficiency of nonferrous metals. In the USSR manufacture of cartridges(patrons) of calibre 7,62 with steel sleeves began only in 1943.

Egorka
04-19-2007, 04:14 AM
Is this the paper that is said to be falcified? If yes then could someone explain more about it.

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw_SovietResolution.jpg

arhob1
04-19-2007, 04:31 PM
truly a very sad story. maybe interesting that for decades the germans were blaimed for that crime.


I think the word "unsurprising" could be substituted for "interesting" here based on that nation's record.

Panzerknacker
04-19-2007, 06:14 PM
I think that any further debate in who did it is hopeless...sorry for the russian friends, but it is.

The bullet from calibre 7,63 Mauser and 7,65 Browning are almost the same,the Mauser leave the muzzle with more speed but in a body they are the same, the real bullet diameter is about 7,82-7.83mm. Unless they have some micrometer measuring gauges is imposssible to tell the difference.

Incidentally the standar german pistol caliber was the 9mm in those days.

Chevan
04-20-2007, 01:59 AM
I think that any further debate in who did it is hopeless...sorry for the russian friends, but it is.

Well sorry mate but if you don't know the details how could you debate it ?


The bullet from calibre 7,63 Mauser and 7,65 Browning are almost the same,the Mauser leave the muzzle with more speed but in a body they are the same, the real bullet diameter is about 7,82-7.83mm. Unless they have some micrometer measuring gauges is imposssible to tell the difference.

And who do talk about bullets mate?
There were found a lot of spent shells in the graves
You could see it in here
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=702
[http://katyn.ru/images/all/7,65Br_DWM_headstamps.jpg


Incidentally the standar german pistol caliber was the 9mm in those days.

Incidentary the standard soviet pistols was the TT caliber of 7,62mm.
Do you wish to say it is no difference between 7,62 and 7,65mm ? ;)

Chevan
04-20-2007, 02:10 AM
On points.

Whether employees of NKVD could shoot Poles from german's pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm.?

The answer - no, could not.
Pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm. were very big rarity in the USSR. Some thousand trunks of such calibre remained since times of revolution (from private weapon shops) and civil war (from interventionists).
These pistols were used as award weapon, and also given out as a hand arm to pilots and diplomatic couriers. In NKVD it use employees of a foreign department for performance of tasks on physical elimination of especially dangerous emigrants used them only.
There were some more thousand pistols of the Soviet manufacture of a design of Korovin of 1924. The design was the extremely unsuccessful - 56 details and very hard descent - and to the middle of 30th years these pistols have completely left the use because of breakages.
Accordingly for a small amount of pistols it was not required also an ammunition. All needs of the USSR for patrons of calibre 7,65 completely were provided with manufacture of such cartridges on Podolsk mechanical factory which began in 1925-26.
Any documents on purchases of the USSR in Germany in 20-30th years of pistols "Walter" in archives of the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs it is not found.
In Germany In 20th years of the USSR really bought in Germany pistols. But absolutely other pistols - "Mauser" of calibre of 7,63 mm. Documents on these transactions are. Except for that USSR has bought in Germany the license for manufacture of pistols "Mauser".

Well thanks Rus-loh.
So did everybody see any documents which supported the USSR had purchased the 7,65 mm pistols in the Germany?


Whether could buy the USSR in Germany cords?
No, could not - in 20 - 30th years of the USSR itself actively sold hempen cords across all Europe.

Well i heared in the USSR was widely used a hemp cord, but in Germany was mass prodused cord from paper.
BTW this is very interesting what do thoink about our polish friends.
But could we actually exclude the possibility of using the GErmans cord by NKVD?


As have defined, that steel sleeves have been made in 1941?
Have very simply defined - till 1941 steel sleeves were not made at all. Anywhere in the world. Germany started their release owing to sharp deficiency of nonferrous metals. In the USSR manufacture of cartridges(patrons) of calibre 7,62 with steel sleeves began only in 1943.

Well the steel shells was not produced before 1941 neither in Germany nor in the USSR.

So how could it was founded in the graves of 1940 - do somebody know?

Panzerknacker
04-20-2007, 09:28 AM
The Deustche Waffen und Munitionen fabriken made ammo for around the world, the Argentine army used DWM bullets in his rifles and pistols so....:rolleyes:



Incidentary the standard soviet pistols was the TT caliber of 7,62mm.
Do you wish to say it is no difference between 7,62 and 7,65mm

The difference is really minimal, as I said you only can discover that with a extremely precise measuring device and a strong knowledge about small arms and ammo. Not to mention that the copper jacketed bullet would be slightly diformated after go trough the human skull.

http://www.ugs.com/promotions/calendar2007/images/around_the_world/images/Starrett_micrometer_v8_Sept27.jpg


If you still think that there is place for some revisionism do it ..at your own risk to fall in ridiculous.

Rus-Loh
04-21-2007, 06:28 AM
Incidentary the standard soviet pistols was the TT caliber of 7,62mm.
Do you wish to say it is no difference between 7,62 and 7,65mm

The difference is really minimal.

It is nonsense.
The patron 7,65 "Browning" and patron 7,62 "Mauser" have not only different calibre, but also the different form, different сapacity of a charge and different length.
Can look here:

http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml - patron "Browning" 7,65x17 mm. for "Walter"
http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml - patron "Mauser" 7,62X25 mm. for TT

It is a site in Russian, but circuits will be clear, as I hope, and without translation.

Rus-Loh
04-21-2007, 06:46 AM
Is this the paper that is said to be falcified? If yes then could someone explain more about it.

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw_SovietResolution.jpg

If it is short...
1. This document is dated 1940 though it is printed on the form of 1930th years. It is extremely improbable, that the economic department of the VKP(B) for two months 1940 has not provided the Political bureau with forms with an inscription " 194 _ "
2. The extract is addressed to L.Berii in spite of the fact that it(he) in structure of "three" is not mentioned. And should it is mentioned, and it is DELETED personally by Stalin.
3. In surname "Кобулов" completely impossible typing error on those times - "Кaбулов" - is made.

Polar
04-21-2007, 11:26 AM
Well sorry mate but if you don't know the details how could you debate it ?

And who do talk about bullets mate?
There were found a lot of spent shells in the graves
You could see it in here
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=702
[http://katyn.ru/images/all/7,65Br_DWM_headstamps.jpg


Incidentary the standard soviet pistols was the TT caliber of 7,62mm.
Do you wish to say it is no difference between 7,62 and 7,65mm ? ;)
Chevan and wich of shells is made of stell? For me any shells on photo isn't made of stell.

Rus-Loh and Chevan
Did you have any photos with stell shells fouded in Katyn, Miednoje or Kharkov?




Originally Posted by Rus-Loh View Post
On points.

Whether employees of NKVD could shoot Poles from german's pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm.?

The answer - no, could not.
Pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm. were very big rarity in the USSR. Some thousand trunks of such calibre remained since times of revolution (from private weapon shops) and civil war (from interventionists).
These pistols were used as award weapon, and also given out as a hand arm to pilots and diplomatic couriers. In NKVD it use employees of a foreign department for performance of tasks on physical elimination of especially dangerous emigrants used them only.
There were some more thousand pistols of the Soviet manufacture of a design of Korovin of 1924. The design was the extremely unsuccessful - 56 details and very hard descent - and to the middle of 30th years these pistols have completely left the use because of breakages.
Accordingly for a small amount of pistols it was not required also an ammunition. All needs of the USSR for patrons of calibre 7,65 completely were provided with manufacture of such cartridges on Podolsk mechanical factory which began in 1925-26.
Any documents on purchases of the USSR in Germany in 20-30th years of pistols "Walter" in archives of the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs it is not found.
In Germany In 20th years of the USSR really bought in Germany pistols. But absolutely other pistols - "Mauser" of calibre of 7,63 mm. Documents on these transactions are. Except for that USSR has bought in Germany the license for manufacture of pistols "Mauser".
Well thanks Rus-loh.

Sorry but this is not any prove. Weapon of cal 7,65mm was popular in Poland and NKVD could take this weapon after 17.IX.1939. This same situation could be with cord.
BTW during Spanish Civil War Poland sold 67 old tanks Renault R-17 to Republic, but in all documents coutry destination was China.

Egorka
04-21-2007, 01:16 PM
If it is short...
1. This document is dated 1940 though it is printed on the form of 1930th years. It is extremely improbable, that the economic department of the VKP(B) for two months 1940 has not provided the Political bureau with forms with an inscription " 194 _ "
2. The extract is addressed to L.Berii in spite of the fact that it(he) in structure of "three" is not mentioned. And should it is mentioned, and it is DELETED personally by Stalin.
3. In surname "Кобулов" completely impossible typing error on those times - "Кaбулов" - is made.

Rus-Loh,

What about the document number? I have read that the number does not fit to the time the document dates to.

Has it been proved? How?

Thanks!

Rus-Loh
04-21-2007, 02:26 PM
Chevan and wich of shells is made of stell? For me any shells on photo isn't made of stell.

From five sleeves steel (because are drawn by a magnet) are the third (it from above is covered with a thin layer of copper) and the fourth on which there is marks DWM 749A 43 (it is covered green is delicious).
The information on it is received privately from the collector to whom these sleeves now belong.


Sorry but this is not any prove. Weapon of cal 7,65mm was popular in Poland and NKVD could take this weapon after 17.IX.1939. This same situation could be with cord.

Frivolous objection.
Poland till 1915 was a part of Russian empire and consequently in the Polish army in "Russian" calibres too prevailed.
Certainly the calibre 7,65 in Poland has been distributed a little bit more widely, than in the USSR, but it and there was rare enough.
Except for that it is necessary to note, that РККА could not grasp in the POLISH warehouses patrons with GERMAN marks in any way.
Very strange it turns out at experts оf Katyn's a question - the USSR in 20th years buys in Germany patrons of calibre 7,65 to pistols which will be just seized in Poland in 1939.


BTW during Spanish Civil War Poland sold 67 old tanks Renault R-17 to Republic, but in all documents coutry destination was China.

And it to what?

Rus-Loh
04-21-2007, 02:47 PM
Rus-Loh and Chevan
Did you have any photos with stell shells fouded in Katyn, Miednoje or Kharkov?

The photo of such sleeves from Katyn is!
And made by Germans in 1943.
Here - look:

http://andrmih.nm.ru/amk_34.jpg

The extreme right sleeve in the bottom number(line) is covered with a thick layer of a rust.
So is strong rust for years - two the steel sleeve which is taking place besides in the aggressive sour environment (which arises at decomposition of corpses) can only.

Laughter for the sake of - the "same" photos on a site of democratic experts Катынского of an affair here is how look:

http://katyn.codis.ru/photoev.htm

It is easy to notice, that (including rusty) experts have cut off two sleeves...

Rus-Loh
04-21-2007, 03:21 PM
Rus-Loh,
What about the document number? I have read that the number does not fit to the time the document dates to.
Has it been proved? How?Thanks!

Probably, you mean " note of Beria from " _ " March, 1940 № 794/Б ":

http://andrmih.nm.ru/f17op166d621l130-web.jpg

Experts of a Katyn's question (for example - N.S.Lebedeva) approves, that this document has been written on March, 3 1940.
She asserts it because in "note of Beria" figures about number of the captured Poles, conterminous are resulted by that is in the other document - precisely dated (and original) "note Soprunenko" from March, 3 1940:


На записке наркома внутренних дел СССР быт проставлены месяц, год, но отсутствовало число. Она была написана на бланке НКВД СССР и имела регистрационный номер. Именно этот номер помог нам датировать с точностью до одного дня - 3 марта - этот документ. См. подробнее: N. Lebidieva. Process podeimovania decyzji katynskiej// Europa nie prowincjonalna. Warszaw-Londyn, 1999. 8. 1155-1174
( Катынь. Март 1940 — сентябрь 2000. Расстрел. Судьбы живых. Эхо Катыни. (Документы). М., “Весь мир”, 2001, с.44 )

Transleting:


On a note of narkom of internal affairs of the USSR were named month, year, but there was no number of day. It has been written on the form of NKVD of the USSR and had registration number. This number has helped us to date to within one day - on March, 3 - this document. See more in detail: N. Lebidieva. Process podeimovania decyzji katynskiej // Europa nie prowincjonalna. Warszaw-Londyn, 1999.8.1155-1174
(Katyn. March 1940 - September 2000. Execution. Destinies alive. Echo of Katyn. (Documents). М., “ All world ”, 2001, with 44)

But! N.S.Lebedeva did not consider that on March, 2, 1940 L.Beria has sent Stalin a note about the Chinese affairs behind number 810/Б.
This note has been published the last year in the collection of documents
" Lubyanka, Stalin and NKVD-NKGB-GUKR "Smersh" 1939-March 1946 " (Publishing house MFD, Moscow, 2006).( "Лубянка, Сталин и НКВД-НКГБ-ГУКР "Смерш" 1939-март 1946" (Издательство МФД, Москва, 2006) .)

This implies, that the document with smaller (794/Б) number has been signed BEFORE March, 2, 1940 - either on March, 1 or on February, 29, 1940.
In the original document signed by Beria on March, 1, 1940 figures from note of Soprunenkoо from March, 3, 1940 in any way could not appear.
Conclusion - " note of Beria from " _ " March, 1940 " - the latest falsification.

Chevan
04-22-2007, 02:49 AM
The Deustche Waffen und Munitionen fabriken made ammo for around the world, the Argentine army used DWM bullets in his rifles and pistols so....:rolleyes:

So you right , nobody in here are doubting the peoples in there were killed by the GEGMAN pistols with GERMAN DWM-shells.


The difference is really minimal, as I said you only can discover that with a extremely precise measuring device and a strong knowledge about small arms and ammo. Not to mention that the copper jacketed bullet would be slightly diformated after go trough the human skull.

Mate you simply wondering me;)
Who do tell about measuring - do you see the bottom of shells - 479A.
I think it was not the problem for the experts to learn that this mean caliber of 7.65mm according DMW classification.


If you still think that there is place for some revisionism do it ..at your own risk to fall in ridiculous.
...........
The difference is really minimal..

It is nonsense.
The patron 7,65 "Browning" and patron 7,62 "Mauser" have not only different calibre, but also the different form, different сapacity of a charge and different length.
Can look here:

http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml - patron "Browning" 7,65x17 mm. for "Walter"
http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml - patron "Mauser" 7,62X25 mm. for TT




So mate do you see who of us both becomes the ridiculously now :D
Just without offensives....OK;)

Rus-Loh
04-22-2007, 04:16 AM
By the way - here still a photo from German materials:

http://andrmih.nm.ru/Amtliches_Material_p330.jpg

Question - whence in the German signature to the document date on October, 20, 1941 (!!!) has undertaken ?

Chevan
04-22-2007, 04:27 AM
From five sleeves steel (because are drawn by a magnet) are the third (it from above is covered with a thin layer of copper) and the fourth on which there is marks DWM 749A 43 (it is covered green is delicious).
The information on it is received privately from the collector to whom these sleeves now belong.

And do yo have any evidences of that some of the shells were drawn by the magnet?
If yes so why this fact ignores the polish side?

Rus-Loh
04-22-2007, 04:27 AM
I shall add still, that it not unique absurd in this signature.
First - in the document there is no indication on a military rank of it Kozlinsky.
Second - in the document it is not spoken, that at Kozlinsky there is WIFE Frantsiska Rozali.
There it is specified, that Франциск is father оf Kozlinsky, and Розали is his mother (!!!)
Thirdly - this document is given Kozlinsky for receipt in the Warsaw university (that is not later than summer 1939), but date of delivery on it is not present.

It turns out, that certain young man Kozlinsky was going to act in 1939 in the Warsaw university, but war here began - and him have mobilized... At once in a rank of the captain (!!!).
Such prompt military career is completely improbable.
Therefore I think, that all is much easier - nazis in 1943 in a pocket of the certain corpse (in a uniform of the captain) have put the document addressed to certain Kozlinsky which have shot on October, 20, 1941.

Chevan
04-22-2007, 04:29 AM
By the way - here still a photo from German materials:

http://andrmih.nm.ru/Amtliches_Material_p330.jpg

Question - whence in the German signature to the document date on October, 20, 1941 (!!!) has undertaken ?

is this document on Polish language?
Could we get the translation somewhere?

Rus-Loh
04-22-2007, 04:38 AM
And do yo have any evidences of that some of the shells were drawn by the magnet?
If yes so why this fact ignores the polish side?

The matter is that these sleeves are taken not from tombs in Kozji Gory. It is simple cartridges of times of the Second World war - and these photos have appeared in connection with the common discussion of a question on marks on German sleeves.
And the Polish side IN GENERAL speaks nothing about a material of which the sleeves found in Kozji Gory in 1994-95 have been made.
It at that all "examination" - a magnet to a sleeve to bring.

Rus-Loh
04-22-2007, 04:43 AM
is this document on Polish language?

Yes, certainly...


Could we get the translation somewhere?

Let better sir Kowalski will translate of it for us. :D

Chevan
04-22-2007, 04:50 AM
The matter is that these sleeves are taken not from tombs in Kozji Gory. It is simple cartridges of times of the Second World war - and these photos have appeared in connection with the common discussion of a question on marks on German sleeves.
And the Polish party(side) IN GENERAL speaks nothing about a material of which the sleeves found in Mountains Kozjih in 1994-95 have been made.
It at that all "examination" - a magnet to a sleeve to bring.
It seems i misundestood you.
So where were found the german steel shells?
If the poles told nothing about materials of german shells founded in Mountains Kozjih this does not mean the shells have been made from a steel.

Rus-Loh
04-22-2007, 08:49 AM
It seems i misundestood you.
So where were found the german steel shells?
If the poles told nothing about materials of german shells founded in Mountains Kozjih this does not mean the shells have been made from a steel.

Poles - really have told nothing.
But on our planet live not only Poles.
And Poles should communicate with them sometimes...;)
And even to employ as workers at carrying out of excavation in Kozji Gory.
To one of such workers also has occurred to bring on excavation a magnet.
As him called I, certainly, shall not tell. Let it will be a surprise for Poles by consideration of their claim to Russia in Strasbourg.

Panzerknacker
04-22-2007, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Rus-loh
It is nonsense.
The patron 7,65 "Browning" and patron 7,62 "Mauser" have not only different calibre, but also the different form, different сapacity of a charge and different length.
Can look here:

http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml (http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml) - patron "Browning" 7,65x17 mm. for "Walter"
http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml (http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml) - patron "Mauser" 7,62X25 mm. for TT



My dear Rus-Loh, if you read my post carefully you ll see I am talking about the bullets wich were extracted from the victim s heads, not the cartrigde casings. I am pretty familiar with handguns and other cartrigdes as you migh note in the German military section with topics like "German weapons in action" "Antitank rifles" "Luftwaffe cannons and Machineguns" etc,etc.



So mate do you see who of us both becomes the ridiculously now :D
Just without offensives....OK

I am not offended because the prize of "ridiculousness" and "futility revisionism" is already awarded to you, Egorka and Rus-Loh.

Two russians presidents, Gorbachov and Yeltsin had already admitted the soviet responsabilities for the officers killing. That is enough to me.

And you are forcing me take some drastic measures:

A)-I will automatically delete any post trying to deny, justificate and/or put in doubt the russian responsabilities in the massacre.

B)-The author of that will receive 2 infraction post.

C)-This topic is for the conmemoration of the polish officers and the discussion of what might be caused his execution by the NKVD, avoid any other off-topic comment .

D) Rus-loh, Egorka and Chevan :feel free to post your condolences/simpathys/ repent toughs to the victims relatives.

Chevan
04-23-2007, 12:19 AM
My dear Rus-Loh, if you read my post carefully you ll see I am talking about the bullets wich were extracted from the victim s heads, not the cartrigde casings. I am pretty familiar with handguns and other cartrigdes as you migh note in the German military section with topics like "German weapons in action" "Antitank rifles" "Luftwaffe cannons and Machineguns" etc,etc.

Sure Panzerknacker you are pretty familiar with germans cartriges but why do need to tell that there is no difference on shell of Brauning and Mauser;)




I am not offended because the prize of "ridiculousness" and "futility revisionism" is already awarded to you, Egorka and Rus-Loh.

Awarded by whom?
You....?
And what realtion has the Egorka at the "revisionism" - he simply asked one neutral question.
I think our polish friends could find interesting the some open question in here.


Two russians presidents, Gorbachov and Yeltsin had already admitted the soviet responsabilities for the officers killing. That is enough to me.

But they both don't open the some secret archives about it. So the polish side still has a some of questions.


-I will automatically delete any post trying to deny, justificate and/or put in doubt the russian responsabilities in the massacre

-The author of that will receive 2 infraction post

But this is pure political censorship
Firstly i/m not deny/justify the responsibility of NKVD at the poles. But we have a couple contruduction point in theme about Katyn. This thread just could make it more clear.
.


-This topic is for the conmemoration of the polish officers and the discussion of what might be caused his execution by the NKVD, avoid any other off-topic comment

Rus-loh, Egorka and Chevan :feel free to post your condolences/simpathys/ repent toughs to the victims relatives


Well here i/m agree with you.
Certainly this thread about tragedy and i have to express my personal condolences for the relatives of killed peoples.
My symphatyies at poles i 've expressed at my previous posts.

Rus-Loh
04-23-2007, 02:37 AM
Two russians presidents, Gorbachov and Yeltsin had already admitted the soviet responsabilities for the officers killing. That is enough to me.
And you are forcing me take some drastic measures:
A)-I will automatically delete any post trying to deny, justificate and/or put in doubt the russian responsabilities in the massacre.

It is very similar to ours " the democratic approach " - to silence the opponent if there are no arguments.
If such measures are already promised, I do not see sense to continue discussion HERE.
Wishing it can continue to be registered at my personal forum or at a forum of a site katyn.ru
So long.

Panzerknacker
04-24-2007, 09:42 AM
It is very similar to ours " the democratic approach " - to silence the opponent if there are no arguments.
If such measures are already promised, I do not see sense to continue discussion HERE.
Wishing it can continue to be registered at my personal forum or at a forum of a site katyn.ru
So long.

That seems a very, very good idea Rus-loh, take your revisionist discussion to other site.

By the way I aprecciate the gesture of Chevan, By my side I also want to give my deepest condolences to all the polish members for this tragedy.

In here you can see some images of the massacre, but be aware it are of very graphic nature.

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/msoldado/katyn.html

Rus-Loh
04-28-2007, 06:03 PM
In here you can see some images of the massacre, but be aware it are of very graphic nature.

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/msoldado/katyn.html

I can see more there:

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches..._material.html

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches/bilds099-113.html

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches/bilds274-331.html

Аnd also:



http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,77363,4081449.html


"Rzeczpospolita": nie wszyscy Polacy znaja prawde o zbrodni katynskiej

PAP
2007-04-23, ostatnia aktualizacja 2007-04-23 01:30
Na zlecenie "Rzeczpospolitej" i programu TVP "Warto rozmawiac", TNS OBOP zapytal Polakow, czy slyszeli o zbrodni katynskiej. Z sondazu wynika, ze 40 proc. ankietowanych nie wie, kto wymordowal w Rosji tysiace polskich oficerow. Co dziesiaty Polak jest przekonany, ze tej zbrodni dokonali Niemcy.
Dziennik przypomina, ze 67 lat temu, w kwietniu 1940 roku, NKWD na rozkaz Stalina zamordowalo tysiace polskich jencow, glownie oficerow oraz przedstawicieli inteligencji.