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GermanSoldier
03-07-2007, 09:20 PM
If you have any information on any artillery and anti-tank weapons of the Italian military please post your information here.
Obice da 210/22 modello 35 Artillary Weapon
http://i13.tinypic.com/2ekt6z6.jpg

I would post more, but I do not know much about Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank weapons. So please help me out so I can learn more.

GermanSoldier
03-07-2007, 10:04 PM
A great Italian Artillery weapon.
http://i16.tinypic.com/2drat5v.jpg
thank you Panzersnacker

Panzerknacker
03-08-2007, 06:58 PM
thank you Panzersnacker


You mean Panzerknacker...you welcome.

GermanSoldier
03-08-2007, 07:44 PM
You mean Panzerknacker...you welcome.

So sorry. I was in a hurry when I was making that post. Really Sorry!

Jenkin
05-21-2007, 11:57 PM
the Italian anti tank and anti personell weapons were effective, but they really struggledd with any of the Gerry (German) tanks and the personell troop carriers, but it would of been really good if this area of time and effectiveness into their other military weapons, such as EVERYTHING THEY OWNED ESPECIALLY THEIR Manlicher- Carcarno's, after shooting a 6.5 x 55 mauser, a 6.5 x 52 carcarno, a Mk 1 No. 3 - 303 british, a 30-06 springfield, the most inaffective rifle of the four is the mannlicher carcarnos, and the sight radius was good, but still stuggaling to keep 10 rounds within a eight inch group at 200 yards. sorry, but i have a british point of view on the matter, dont worry if it is peasamistic to the Italians.

Tony Williams
05-25-2007, 09:24 PM
The Italians used the 20mm Solothurn S18-1000 anti-tank rifle. A big, heavy device, but effective against tanks in 1940: it could penetrate up to 40mm armour at short range (realistically, 25-30mm in combat).

The pic below comes from this site: http://www.amsd.ch/s18/menu_s18_solothurn.html

http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-WEB.gif

Panzerknacker
05-25-2007, 11:01 PM
;)

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2567/solothurnphotoitalybersaglieri.jpg

Tony Williams
05-26-2007, 03:00 AM
I just love those hats - they'd go well with a lady's outfit at the Royal Ascot races!

The horizontal bars sticking from either side of the muzzle look interesting - I've not seen them before, but I presume that they are to allow the gunner to check that the gun is held upright and not canted, as that affects the accuracy of the sights.

Panzerknacker
05-26-2007, 03:51 PM
I just love those hats - they'd go well with a lady's outfit at the Royal Ascot races!
Only if they are not alergic to the pheasant feathers.:rolleyes:

Probably those guys fight better than they looks. Couldnt be the bars also used for handling this weapon?

Tony Williams
05-26-2007, 08:23 PM
Probably those guys fight better than they looks. Couldnt be the bars also used for handling this weapon?
I don't think so - they don't look to be the right shape for that.

Panzerknacker
05-27-2007, 03:11 PM
Small video of the Solo 20mm in italian hands.

http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0055BA58DF030103009D21A8C05706000000&inf=707320&outf=815760&funktion=play250k

Cav1
05-23-2008, 08:25 AM
Just wondering. There is a vast amount of technical information on ATRs floating around, but I haven't had much luck in locating actual accounts of their use in combat. Mainly old Soviet Red Star articles that say something like "Corporal I. Shilkakov destroyed three Fascist tanks with his anti tank rifle." Franz Kurowski's books sometimes mention anti tank rifle use and James Lucas' Alpine Elite mentioned use of the PzB 39 on Crete a couple of times. Plenty of stuff on the British Boys, published and on the net.

Does anyone know of any sources that mention Italian use of the Solothurn Fucile Contracarro in Africa? Theoretically, it would have been quite effective against early, thin-skinned British tanks like the Mk VIB and the Cruiser tanks, but I have never seen any actual accounts of it doing so.

fert
05-29-2008, 10:38 AM
Hi man
some info about italian anti tank weapons:
Solothurn S-18-1000 and 1100, delivered on autumn 1940 to 10th army, Libia, evective against light AFV and at very short range and with a lot of lucky..against cruiser tank. some ATR was installed on light tank L3, british Bren carrier, and AFV shariana M42. On september 1941 was 136 ATR in north Africa, of wich 35 to Brescia division, 60 to Pavia, 15 to Ariete, On February 1943 155 ATR, of wich 55 to Trieste, 31 to Giovani Fascisti (young fascist), 7 to Pistoia, 33 to cebtauro and 6 with sharian detachment.
20mm Breda M35 and isotta-fraschini ntiaircraft used as anti tank role
ATR Wz 35 Marosczek delivered from german in 250 item. Used in north africa by paratroopers and motorized divison.
ATR Boys, captured in Somaliland, used by Granatieri di Savoia in east africa. Trento division used boys on tobruk defence in 1941. Boys ammunition was manufactured in italy by SMI.
ATR PTRD and PTRS on russian front...... the italian don't throw away anything.....

picture: italian 20x138 APHE used on ATR and AA 20mm
20 m35, and isotta fraschini

fert
05-29-2008, 10:49 AM
47/32 m35 and 39:
APHE M35
APBCHE M39
HE M35
HESH M41 (italian EP internal fuze)
HEAT M41 (italian EPS)

in action giovani fascisti at bir el gobi

fert
05-29-2008, 11:03 AM
the italian used obviously captured and supplied from germans gun, like 47mm skoda model 38 from jugoslavia, franch 25mm m37 and 47mm m 37, british 37mm bofors and 2pr.
german 3.7cm pak 36 and 5cm pak 38.
german supplied ammunition for many weapons, and take back spent case to reload.

Tony Williams
05-29-2008, 02:21 PM
Hi man
some info about italian anti tank weapons:
20mm Breda M35 and isotta-fraschini ntiaircraft used as anti tank role

Do you have any data on the Isotta-Fraschini? I know about the others, but not that one.

tankgeezer
05-29-2008, 02:50 PM
I don't think so - they don't look to be the right shape for that.
this is more a guess, as there are points protruding from the muzzle bars, might this be an aiming device showing the lead needed to engage a flanked, moving vehicle?

Panzerknacker
05-29-2008, 07:09 PM
Hi man
some info about italian anti tank weapons:
Solothurn S-18-1000 and 1100, delivered on autumn 1940 to 10th army, Libia, evective against light AFV and at very short range and with a lot of lucky..against cruiser tank. some ATR was installed on light tank L3, british Bren carrier, and AFV shariana M42. On september 1941 was 136 ATR in north Africa, of wich 35 to Brescia division, 60 to Pavia, 15 to Ariete, On February 1943 155 ATR, of wich 55 to Trieste, 31 to Giovani Fascisti (young fascist), 7 to Pistoia, 33 to cebtauro and 6 with sharian detachment.
20mm Breda M35 and isotta-fraschini ntiaircraft used as anti tank role
ATR Wz 35 Marosczek delivered from german in 250 item. Used in north africa by paratroopers and motorized divison.
ATR Boys, captured in Somaliland, used by Granatieri di Savoia in east africa. Trento division used boys on tobruk defence in 1941. Boys ammunition was manufactured in italy by SMI.
ATR PTRD and PTRS on russian front...... the italian don't throw away anything.....


Thanks for the images and information :cool: Just a question, the lower image shows one weapon that I know as "Scotti"

Did the IF firm manufactured this weapon?

Tony Williams
05-30-2008, 01:02 AM
this is more a guess, as there are points protruding from the muzzle bars, might this be an aiming device showing the lead needed to engage a flanked, moving vehicle?

It's possible, but I doubt it because there is no obvious way to adjust the sights to allow for different target ranges and speeds.

Tony Williams
05-30-2008, 01:03 AM
Thanks for the images and information :cool: Just a question, the lower image shows one weapon that I know as "Scotti"

Did the IF firm manufactured this weapon?

I can tell you that Isotta Fraschini often made guns designed by Scotti.

Panzerknacker
05-30-2008, 08:55 AM
Problem solved then, Danke tony, the Scotti was also in 20x138b caliber and a better design than the Breda 20/65.

fert
05-30-2008, 09:45 AM
thanks,
Im happy to share these with you.


this is more a guess, as there are points protruding from the muzzle bars, might this be an aiming device showing the lead needed to engage a flanked, moving vehicle?

It's a gear to rapid change the barrel. the breda 37 8mm MG used a similar gear.

cannone mitragliera da 20/70 scotti-isotta-fraschini-om:
The firm Alfredo Scotti in Brescia, at the end of 20's, patented an original mechanism of closing for automatic weapons with tangential arrest of the bolt with rotating head. This solution foun application in many weapons, from rifle caliber to 40mm. In the 30's the firm Isotta Fraschini in Milano bought the right to build all the Scotti's weapons, so were developed and improved. Scotti-IF developed also MG belt and magazine fed in caliber 6.5mm, 7.7mm, 8mm, and 12.7mm, always defeated by the Breda's weapons.
Te first model of 20/70 IF (1934) was chambered for the 20x110RB, oerlikon, with 60 round drum magazine. After the adoptption by navy and army of Breda 20/65 in 20x138B, the IF was constricted to change hte ammunition, and adoptede the 12 round strip magazine used in the Breda.
In 1938 army and navy oredered some IF gun, 50 with wheel gun carriage, and 150 with navy gun carriage. In 1939 the scotti Isotta Fraschini was again improved, by the feeding mechanism and gas pressure valve. The definitive model appear in 1941, and was reproduced by Società Anonima OM(Officine Meccaniche) in Brescia, and by C.E.M.S.A.(Caproni Elettro Meccanica Società Anonima) in Saronno. Many kind of gun carriage were developed, I only enclose some picture. Navy used Breda gun carriage wit S-IF gun, twin gun was also built.
In 1943 DICAT (DIfesa Contro Aerei Territoriale = anti aircraft territorial defence) has 545 S-IF mod 39 and 41. Was developed a quadruple gun like german flakvierling, also mounted on M15/42 tank.
After 8 september 1943, german produced S-IF like 2cm FlaK Scotti(i) in north italy firms. In february 1945 Luftwaffe has 497 IF
some pictures:
1 free pointment carriage
2 navy
3 mod 41
4 free pointment
5 schematic field carriage
6 field carriage action
7 field carriage with different sight, 2nd was simplified
8 navy mounts in ground use, with italian humorism, antiaircraft umbrella...

Panzerknacker
05-30-2008, 10:02 AM
Very good photos, too bad the 12 rounds magazine, sound little for continuous firing.

tankgeezer
05-30-2008, 10:56 AM
I had forgotten that the Solothurn had a changeable barrel, (a senior moment I think,,,) makes sense, no fun handling a hot tube when changing.

fert
06-06-2008, 10:19 AM
65/17 mod 1911

Developed as mountain gun, the piece responded well a great deal to the 1ww operational employment resulting precise, strong and reliable. Its greatest defect was the elevation, up to 20°, absolutely insufficient in the mountain ground. In fact the artillerymen were often forced to increase elevation lifting the gun on parapets of earth making, that did assume to acrobatic position
Besides, the lone charge, and the flat trajectory, they especially limited greatly the choice of the positions and the effectiveness in mountain ground.
In 1920 the gun was replaced by the Austrian howitzer 75/13 mod 15, clearly superior to the Italian piece. In 1926 it was attributed to the infantry. How weapon of infantry, a long range not being more necessary, and were distributed new ammunition with reduced charge, which allowed a rather curved trajectory, very more proper for the fire above the troops friends. In 1936 in the operations was thickly employed for the conquest of the Abbissinia, then in Spain.
In 1940 they were present 719 pieces with 1.542.000 shells. Particularly serious it was the lack of antitank ammunition , in the 1st year of war they were available only 93.600 APHE…. During the war it operate on all the fronts resulting extremely versatile and superior to the 47/32 by the most greater power and effectiveness of the APHE ammunition and EP (Effetto Pronto = ready effect = HESH). The EP ammunition were available from the spring 1942, and shipped to the 8 army and those fighting in Libya, in oriental and northern Africa. Was employed on Fiat 634 truck, 28 guns were installed on English Morris CS6 going to constitute together with 75/27 and 100/17 gun, the famous flying batteries. In January 1942 they were available 655 pieces, in December 444. in Tunisia they operated 96 pieces. The pieces captured by the Germans were renamed 6.5cm GebK 246(i ).
The ammunition were:
Torpedo shell with reduced and normal charge for the use of the infantry.
APHE with base fuze mod 09
Antitank shell EP, EPS with I-35 fuze (HEAT) and EPS 42 (HEAT) with special fuze of German conception.
Canister
Incendiary smoke shell with white phosphorus and I-38 fuze
Steel case was made too.

pictures:
tunisia, la spezia division
tunisia la spezia division with 3 wheel morcycle Trialce
russia
flyng batteries on british truck (morris ??)
drinking on flybg batteries
65/17 APHE with base fuze mod 09
some ammunition of ww1 design: 1, 2 3 torpedo shell, 3rd has the rosetta ritardatrice ( retarding plate) to curved the trajectory. the other are shrapnell
EP, EPS, canister and WP are missing, sorry.

ww2admin
06-06-2008, 10:28 AM
Wonderful post fert, thanks:)

fert
06-06-2008, 11:32 AM
it's a pleasure.
thanks to you.
greetings

DavidW
06-06-2008, 11:48 AM
Bump.

fert
06-13-2008, 10:02 AM
75/27 mod 06

The gun was the Krupp model for export adopted in Italy in 1906. Other nations adopted it were: Belgium, Holland Turkey Sweden Denmark Romania Switzerland.
After ww1 the gun was relegated to assignments of second line, coastal defence, strengthened works armament, position batteries GAF (Guardia Alla Frontiera = frontier guard) and groups of artillery displaced in colonies. Some were surrendered to Albania and Poland that used them against the Russian in the 1920 war. At ww2 eve they were in service 1700 guns mod 06.
In March 1940 the 75/27 mod 06 and 11 Deport were so distributed:
Infantry divisions: 2 groups 24 pieces
truck-borne divisions: 24 pieces
motorized divisions 16 pieces
armoured divisions 24 pieces
camice nere divisions 2 groups 24 pieces
75/27 mod 06 and 11 Deport were the pieces employed in greater number by the Italian army. The new artilleries model 35 and model 37, that would have replaced the old pieces Krupp and Deport, in June 1940 they had not entered production of series yet.
Because of the reduced caliber the 75/18 mod 35 and 75/32 mods37 already resulted obsolete before entering service.
The shell from 75mm resulted ineffective against the strengthened works, they didn't destroy the trenches. By this way in Africa the 75/27 were clearly outclassed by the British 25pdr. To few it served the expedient to sink the tail of the gun mod 06 in a pit dug in the sand to increase the draught in elevation and to come to a maximum range of 10.2km.
Both in Northern Africa and in Russia, the redoubt effectiveness of the infantry antitank weapons, often forced the groups from 75mm and 100mm to take sides inside the advanced point, to help the action of fire.
Despite the vast employment in antitank role 75/27 were poorly fit to the contrast tank. gives the insufficient flat trajectory, the excessive height of the piece, the small horizontal sector of fire (especially Krupp), that prevented the fire against moving target to the brief distances. Other lacks were given by the impossibility from the pointer to contemporarily operate the mechanisms of aiming and shot, as well as the thickness of the shield, easily pierced by the AP bullets of enemy machine guns.
To improve the effectiveness of the antitank fire APHE shells was introduced EP ( HESH) and EPS (HEAT). In the action against tanks the max range was 700m, but for multiple objectives was recommended to begin the fire to 300/400m.
The mod 06 gun were employed in all the fronts except in Russia and oriental Africa.
In March 41 80 guns displaced in Albania;
69 in northern Africa in endowment to Bologna, Ariete, Sabratha and Sahara libico divisions, Catalano and Santa Maria columns
Libya October 1941: 263 guns; February 1943 96 guns, distributed to Trieste, Giovani Fascisti, Pistoia, Spezia, Centauro, Raggruppamento Shaariano
The Germans delivered pieces of Belgian origin with 38.000 round which also shot Italian ammunition, Dutch pieces Siderius and Yugoslav and Greek guns mod 903 and 904. After september 8 1943 the Germans denominated the gun FK 237(i)

fert
06-13-2008, 10:05 AM
75/27 mod 11 Deport

Adopted in 1911 to eliminate some deficiencies that emerged during test with 75/27 mod 1906 and the delay of deliveries of the pieces mod 906.
Italy enter ww2 with still the horse-drawn artilleries. Of 1300 75/27 mod 11 gun, only 268 had been modified for the mechanical drawing. Someone were replaced with pneumatic tyres celerflex, but the absence of special elastic organs they made the substitution useless.
The relationship of the general D’Antonio in Libya:
75/27 mod 11 gun celerflex wheel;
the material, for how much endowed with celerflex wheels results too much delicate to follow the normal speed and the long marches of the mechanized columns. They easily torn the bolts of the shield, and sometimes the trails was broken from the gun carriage.
In 1942 to increase the redoubt off road mobility, the 12° auto-raggruppamento in northern Africa install on tractors of artillery TL 37, the 75/27 gun mod 11 eliminating the wheels and cutting the tails.
In Russia some guns climbed on the pneumatic wheels recovered by large cases abandoned by the enemy. In 1941 the CSIR (Corpo Spedizione Italiano in Russia=Italian Russian Corps) then ARMIR (ARMata Italiana in Russia)had 48 guns climbed to 72 in 1942.In March 1941 148 pieces were in Albania. In October 1941 39 pieces in Tripolitania and 99 in Cirenaica. In the December 1942 after the battle of El Alamein the guns were reduced to 42, in Tunisia in 1943 only 10 guns had remained.
After September 8 the gun was renamed by the Germans 7,5cm Fk 244(i)

2nd picture is the conversion made by 12° auto raggruppamento on tractor TL-37

fert
06-13-2008, 10:08 AM
ammunition

Case: 75x185 rim 90mm; case also used on 75/18 field gun mod 35
Old ww1 shell with m10 fuze
M32 shell with M10 or IO40 direct action fuze
Double effect shell mod 32 wit time and percussion fuze mod 36
French shells mod 1900/15 and 17
Shrapnel wit mod 06 fuze
EP, EPS, EPS 42 antitank shells
White Phosphorus shell
Gas shell
In April 1943 2.842 75/27 round was prepared with Greek APHE captured shellswith French base fuze mod 18.
In 1942 firing tests were effected with EP shells on T-34 tanks; it doesn't produce sensitive effects against the T34.

pictures:
1-shell: shrapnell, old ww1 model fuze m10; m32 shell fuze m10; m32 shell fuze IO40
2-case: brass and steel
3-cover
4-5-6-7 ammo box (german stencilling)
8-9 round position
10- shell detonator-plug-fuze

fert
06-13-2008, 10:15 AM
italian projectile for separated load

APHE
SAPHE
EP
EPS

DavidW
06-13-2008, 12:35 PM
fert, or Tony W.

Do you have any detailed info on the 100/17 & it's ammo, similar to that which you have posted about both the 65mm & 75mm pieces please?

Panzerknacker
06-15-2008, 09:33 PM
Very good, is interesting to see the large and widespread use of the hollow charge ( effeto pronto = quick effect) projectiles. :cool:

fert
06-16-2008, 08:33 AM
the lack of efficient antitank guns, made to develop HEAT ammunitions, to use on the existing guns, for the majority field guns, with low muzzle velocity.
the German supplies of antitank guns from 3.7cm pak, 5cm pak 7,5cm pak and 8,8cm flak never did not overwhelm the deficit.


@ DavidW: it's in preparing.

picture: italian EP shell
greetings

DavidW
06-16-2008, 01:38 PM
Thank you kind sir.:)

fert
06-18-2008, 07:00 AM
100/17 mod 14 and 16


The victory on Austria Hungary of the ww1 delivered to Italian army 1339 100/17 mod 14 field and 95 mod 16 mountain howitzers. The captured material was also delivered in account damn-reparation of war, and quantified in 557 barrel + 56 gun carriage mod 16 mountain, 915 barrel + 735 gun carriage field. This resolved one of the greatest problems emerged during the ww1 the lack of a light curved draught howitzer.
The Skoda 10cm mod 14 and mod 16 were good weapons, solid and strong, besides the power of burst of the shells was clearly superior to that of the Italian 105/28 Ansaldo/Schneiders howitzers.
The lack of ammunition did that, a new model of shell was adopted, the mod 32 with 2,3 kg of tritolo (1 in more than the Austrians), good ballistic coefficient that increased the range about 500m. The residual Austrian
ammunition was standardized and endowed with Italian fuze. The howitzers were suited for the mechanical drawing, through elastic cart and semi pneumatic wheels.
Thanks the wide availability of howitzers, many were assigned to the GAF for the armament of strengthened works.
At the beginning of the ww2, the Army had available 1325 howitzers mod 14 animal drawing, 199 mechanical drawing and 181 mod 16 mountain.
In 1941 were lined up in Albania 140 howitzers mod 14 and 108 mod 16.
Northern Africa, October 1941; 137 with semi pneumatic wheels; in 1943 they were reduced to 56. To improve the mobility they were installed on heavy trucks Lancia 3RO.
In April 1942 they were available 173 howitzers from 100/17 mod 16, 192 mod 14 mechanical drawing, 1583 animal drawing.
The new 105/20 Ansaldo and 105/23 OTO howitzers destined to its substitution didn't overcome the prototype stage, while the German 10.5cm le. FH 18/40 adopted in July 1943, were never delivered.
Employed in Russia, and in the Lybic-Egyptian desert, the 100/17 underline all its limits especially in terms of maximum range and mobility.
Despite the low muzzle velocity and the limited horizontal sector, was often employed as antitank gun. The EP shells were ready to half 1942, while the EPS only in May 1943. The tests done in May 42 with Germans on T34 tanks, showed the great efficiency of the EP projectiles. The obtained results have also surprised the German which considered that such effects were best of the their own 10.5cm Hl shells. As usual the lack antitank ammunition during the war, did the Italian artillerymen use HE shell without fuze (like shot) against the hostile tank, getting good results.
After September 8 the howitzers captured by the Germans assumed the name of 10cm FH 315(i).

pictures
100/17 mod 14 in position with ammo limber on side
100/17 mod 17 with elastic cart for mechanical drawing
100/17 mod 16 with semi pneumatic weels
loading a hold type shell

fert
06-18-2008, 07:05 AM
ammunition:

granata = shell
granata shrapnel = shrapnel shell (shrapnell + HE)
shrapnell
scuola tiro = firing school

fert
06-18-2008, 07:17 AM
many shell for AA 102/35 shell ver modified to fire in 100/17 howitzer

HE shell made from ex 102/35 shell
twin effect shell fuze mod 12 (time and percussione)
shrapnell shell fuze mod 14 (time and percussion) (ex austrian)
shrapnell mod 12 time and percussion fuze (from shrapnell shell ex austrian)
Shrapnel (ex austrian) with italina fuze mod 12
HE shell ex 102/35 with firing school load
blank wood projectile
cartridge case (steel, iron and btrass)

these are old shell pre 1932 model

fert
06-18-2008, 07:28 AM
ammunition used:
Austrian ww1 shells;
twin effect shells with italian mosd 12 fzue
shell shrapnel
mod 32 shell with m10 percussion fuze
mod 32 twin effect with mod 36 time and percussion fuze
anti tank, EP. EPS
Polish shells mod 23 e 28
Gas shell
Smoke and smoke incendiary WP shell

picture1:
case
HE mod 32 mod 10 percussion fuze
old twin effect with mod 12 fuze
2 twin effect shell mod 32 with mod 36DE (doppio effetto= twin effect=time percussion) fuze
dummy shell mod 32
HE shell from 102/35

pic2
mod 36 DE

pic3
ex 102/35 shell transformed for 100/17 ( the 102/35 driving band was elinitated and replaced)

pic 4
stencilling on shell

fert
06-18-2008, 07:37 AM
cases 100x132 rim 115

italian made brass case
ex austrian case with italian markings
italian made iron = ferro
polish case remarked by italian, and german umgestempelt (this is a 100x183 case cut down....I think)
case with element
and element


best regards

fert
06-18-2008, 08:06 AM
I forgot the anti tank shell.....
EP and EPS


and the EP shells effect on turret and side of T34

DavidW
06-18-2008, 06:57 PM
Thank you.

Carl Schwamberger
07-09-2008, 08:16 PM
Anyone happen to have any details for the methods for massing battalion and multibattalion artillery fires? I'm searching for information and unrefined data on the procedures and equipment used for the command and control of the Italian divsion and corps/army artillery. please contact me here or directly if you have any knowledge or sources for this.

Thanks

DavidW
07-09-2008, 08:22 PM
Carl.

I'm really interested in this topic too. Information on Italian artillery doctrine of WWII is so hard to find. Especially on the larger scale firing plans.

Carl Schwamberger
07-15-2008, 09:44 PM
David...have you found anything at all concerning this? I've absolutely nothing for the Italians, and a few bits for the Germans.

DavidW
07-16-2008, 02:41 AM
Carl.

Nothing on the larger scale Italian firing plans, no.

Carl Schwamberger
07-19-2008, 12:01 AM
What about at the smaller battery or battalion scale?

I've heard the italian artillery was technically proficient. So, one naturally wonders if they could mass battalion and regiment fires as rapidly as the British or US artillery could.

DavidW
07-19-2008, 07:03 PM
There is a little information here, ( http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=826&hilit=+Italian+artillery+doctrine+&start=0 ) if you can sift through three pages.

Carl Schwamberger
07-27-2008, 12:57 PM
David...thanks. I'm familar with the site, but that is worth reviewing for new material.

Django
11-09-2008, 04:32 AM
Italian Artillery in North Africa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=861CfTOeUFg&feature=related

At about 23 seconds in I am not sure if its the 90mm AA Italian gun or the 88mm German AA/AT gun?

Panzerknacker
11-09-2008, 12:07 PM
Is a german 88 flak 18, but the crew is italian.

http://i36.tinypic.com/iyejqd.jpg

Django
11-09-2008, 03:42 PM
Thanks for the confirmation, it was just wishful thinking on my part as I have yet to see footage of the Italian 90mm in action.
From what I have read it was an excellent piece and more than equal to the 88.

Panzerknacker
11-09-2008, 08:50 PM
A little more powerful actually, sligtly heavier proyectile at 853 mps compared with 800-820 mps of the german gun ( with the exception of Flak 41 wich was very powerful)

For more footage of italian guns, here:

http://www.archivioluce.com/archivio/

Panzergrenadier Italien
01-26-2009, 08:39 PM
i will say it is a canone da 90/53 even better than the flak 88

Panzerknacker
01-27-2009, 06:27 PM
It probably was, however the german fire control was a bit better.

DavidW
01-28-2009, 02:23 AM
The 88 had a greater ceiling.

Nickdfresh
01-28-2009, 11:23 AM
There were a lot of AA guns in its class that were better than the 88mm in pure, or theoretical, AA performance. I think the notoriety of the 88 is -being a bit overrated as a 'super-weapon' IMO- not because of any superior performance as a gun, but in its low weight, ammunition, versatility, and the training of the crews manning them...

Panzerknacker
01-28-2009, 05:14 PM
The 88 had a greater ceiling.


Depend on wich variant, the 90 mm italian gun had a heavier projectile projected at 850 mps, compared with the 820 mps of the flak 36, the 88mm Flak 41 is better than both however.


There were a lot of AA guns in its class that were better than the 88mm in pure, or theoretical, AA performance. I think the notoriety of the 88 is -being a bit overrated as a 'super-weapon' IMO- not because of any superior performance as a gun, but in its low weight, ammunition, versatility, and the training of the crews manning them


The notoriety is evidently as antitank weapon.

Ivaylo
01-31-2009, 08:58 AM
Maybe a little bit off topic but one question always wonders me when speaking of Italians in WW2 ... does really the italians were so bad fighters in WW2 or that is a fake and they were moderate as they were against superior enemy ? ( something like Germany latter in the war )

Panzerknacker
02-01-2009, 01:38 PM
Cant said yes or no with 100% accuracy but something is true: They italians had bad commanders and equipment in early part of the war, thing that undermined the morale.

DavidW
02-01-2009, 01:59 PM
They also lacked adequate training. For instance, crews of the 90/53 were not trained to engage ground targets at all during 1942. And I've yet to see any evidence that they were prior to the Armistace.

Rising Sun*
02-02-2009, 07:15 AM
Maybe a little bit off topic but one question always wonders me when speaking of Italians in WW2 ... does really the italians were so bad fighters in WW2 or that is a fake and they were moderate as they were against superior enemy ? ( something like Germany latter in the war )

The good Italian units which faced Australians in North Africa (which are the only ones I know much about) were as good as any other good units. They fought hard, with skill, determination, and bravery.

Some other Italian units were very ordinary and at times surrendered at the first opportunity, leading to the well known pictures of columns of Italian POWs stretching to the horizon, and other events such as largish groups surrendering to Allied photographers. This was largely because those units were composed of blokes who didn't want to be there and who didn't think they were involved in a cause worth dying for. Later events proved them correct.

A bit further off topic. Many Italian POWs came to Australia during the war and were released to work on farms to overcome labour shortages. Many of the host families came to have high regard for their hard-working qualities and agricultural skills, and for them as men and people. Quite a number of those farming families sponsored their former POW workers as migrants in our post-war migration program, which shows the respect and affection they earned.

Nickdfresh
02-02-2009, 10:35 AM
Italian troops were as capable of being as courageous as soldiers in any other army. But they had a hideously insulting class system between the junior officers and men which demoralized the soldiers and destroyed any concept of leadership, outdated arms and tactics, and they were virtually immobilized compared to their enemies. Their shortcomings in arms and transport compared to the British, and later the Americans, probably made a lot of them feel betrayed and that Mussolini as an ******* throwing their lives away for nothing. However, when backed into a corner knowing the capitulation of North Africa would inevitably lead to the fall of Italy and when the Allies were forced to fight them with poor bloody infantry tactics that often devolved to throwing rocks at one another in the mountains of Tunisia, there were instances of Italians fighting tenaciously from caves and fortifications --sometimes they fought virtually to the death...

Panzerknacker
02-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Italian troops were as capable of being as courageous as soldiers in any other army. But they had a hideously insulting class system between the junior officers and men which demoralized the soldiers and destroyed any concept of leadership, outdated arms and tactics, and they were virtually immobilized compared to their enemie


I tend to agree with that, however with better commanders ( mostly germans but still some italian like Baldasare, La Ferla, Navarini) in charge there were several improvements in fighting spirit even with the outdated weapons and tactics.

A very good indication of that is the book of the memoirs of Rommel, "The Rommel papers", he had a very low opinion of italians at the beggining of the Africa campaign, then as the fortunes of war moves against the british it can saw and recognize an heavy improvement in discipline and morale between the soldiers.

And finally if we speak the awful truth there was no way of winning the Battle of Gazala as Rommel did in 1942 without a good italian military performance and support.

http://www.targheitaliane.it/gallery/bersaglieri1.jpg

flamethrowerguy
02-03-2009, 01:25 AM
Hitler had his very own opinion regarding this issue. A told quotation reads as follows: "The best soldier allied with the worst."

Byron
02-03-2009, 03:10 PM
Italian troops were as capable of being as courageous as soldiers in any other army.

Every army in WWII had formations that simple vanished when they made contact with the enemy and other formations that stood and fought to the last man. Most combat formations fall somewhere in between, performing "adequately or well" in combat (depending on a number of factors).

For a variety of reasons, the Italian army seemed to perform along the extremes more than other armies. There were plenty of formations that fought exceptionally well in both NA and Russia. There were also a number that simply collapsed when the fighting started. However, there are accounts of German formations breaking in combat while the Italians continued to fight. This type of thing happens in all armies.

Ardee
02-03-2009, 03:12 PM
The Italian government also viewed the infantry as the mundane of the services, which more or less got the dregs the others services didn't want. IIRC, a US intelligence manual I read of the time also noted they were the least-paid service as well, with standard pay for the lowest rank being something like 17 cents (US value) a day, which I think is a truly pitiful sum, even for the days emerging from the Great Depression, even allowing the Government provided clothing, room and board. Married soldiers/those with children got somewhat more. (I'd have to dig up the source if anybody is really interested about the wages, and that might prove either very easy or very hard -- and nowhere in between.)

In any case, the point was that the Italian Navy and air force - and I believe specialized infantry such as Alpini as well -- got first pick among conscripts, and these services were also -- by popular image, pay, and other factors - the ones viewed as most desirable for careers/volunteers. Basically, the infantry was looked down upon, and strongly so, by their own government. If you want to start looking more roots of morale problems, this would seem a pretty good place to start....

Panzerknacker
02-08-2009, 08:52 AM
Italian 90/53 "portee" I had seen footage of this Ansaldo truck used extensively during the Gazala battle in may 1942, probably this was a very powerful adittion to italian formations against british tanks.

http://secondeguerre.net/images/articles/artillerie/it/ad/cannoneda9053.png

DavidW
02-08-2009, 09:56 AM
Panzerknacker.

I am sorry, it is not an Ansalado combination, but a Lancia 3RO.

I'm also not so sure about "extensive" use during the Gazala battles, as there were only between 10 & 20 such vehicles in North Africa at the time. And they certainly would not have been powerful formations against the Commonwealth tanks, as they were used exclusively in the anti-aircraft role, as the crews had no training in the engagement of ground targets, nor was there any suitable ammunition available at the time.

Please understand that I am not "attacking" you. Just putting forward the facts, in what I hope is a friendly manner.

it is a very nice photo by the way. It is of a post war vehicle attached to the Centauro Division.

Panzerknacker
02-08-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm also not so sure about "extensive" use during the Gazala battles, as there were only between 10 & 20 such vehicles in North Africa at the time. And they certainly would not have been powerful formations against the Commonwealth tanks, as they were used exclusively in the anti-aircraft role


I dont know about the quantities , probably wasnt much as you say, however I did saw the 90/53 firing at ground targets as long range artillery and there are accounts of its use as antitank.

http://www.archivioluce.com/archivio/jsp/schede/schedaCine.jsp?db=cinematograficoCINEGIORNALI&section=/&physDoc=20116&theTerm=africa+settentrionale&qrId=3se050b5487e8109&findCine=true#

Open the link above and then clik in "high" and you ll see.

http://i43.tinypic.com/21do84h.jpg

DavidW
02-09-2009, 02:37 AM
Sorry link doesn't work.

I should make it clear that I'm not saying that they were never ever used in the ground role. Just that during 1942, there was not suitable ammo or adequate (if any) training.

As for numbers, 10 arrived at Tripoli in May 1942 with DII Gruppo C/A.
And another 10, with DI Gruppo. My dates of arrival ar sketchy, but somewhere between February & August 1942.
DI Gruppo C/A went on to serve with Ariete Division, as IV Gruppo 132nd Artigliera Reggimento.

Panzerknacker
02-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Errr, use my account

name: marceloe
pass: sw1sw2

Your numbers seems right, the vehicle is hardly seen in more of 5 or 6 group.

DavidW
02-09-2009, 06:23 PM
A Batterie was of 5 Cannoni.

Panzerknacker
02-10-2009, 05:21 PM
Well, then the video showed some vehicles of the Ariete, it was taken in late May 1942.

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2Egyp/WH2Egy19b(h280).jpg

leccy
03-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Maybe a little bit off topic but one question always wonders me when speaking of Italians in WW2 ... does really the italians were so bad fighters in WW2 or that is a fake and they were moderate as they were against superior enemy ? ( something like Germany latter in the war )

Reading accounts from the early battles against the Italians by the British (Before German intervention)

Officers were disliked by their troops as they did not suffer any of the hardships that their troops faced, the officer class were pampered and lived completely seperately from their men with plenty of food even when their men were going short.

The Artilary and Armoured units fought very well often to the death as they had a different relationship between their officers and men. Once the italian Armour and Artillary was knocked out the infantry tended to give up the fight very quickly.

When faced with British Cruiser and Light tanks they fought quite well but they did tend to get 'Matilda nerves similar to the allies with the Tiger' as the Infantry tanks were impervious to all Italian A/T weapons and troops from one camp would run from the 'Terrible Matilda (II)' to another camp and infect the troops there with fear. (This tends to be the period where most of the huge lines and acres of prisoner pictures come from)

When Rommel took over he found the Italian troops to be capable 'even with old/poor equipment' but very badly led

fredl109
05-08-2010, 10:08 AM
Gentlemen, go to Italie 1935-45.com for more information Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons , this a very good site for more explanation of different type of guns.
(sorry for my english)
friendly fred

burp
05-10-2010, 04:40 AM
Rommel says: The German soldier has impressed the world, however the Italian Bersagliere soldier has impressed the German soldier.
An unknown english pilot says: When i see them [the italians] with their carcasses [their airplanes], i dont know if laugh for derision or cry for emotion.

The Italian soldier were poorly armed, except the Navy, and poorly lead. Sometimes they retreat without fight but in general they fought well against a better armed and more numerous enemies.

Nickdfresh
05-10-2010, 08:08 AM
The book "An Army at Dawn" recounts bitter fighting in the mountains of North Africa between U.S. and Italian enemies. I see if I can find some more on this, but Atkins basically states that the Italian soldier could definitely fight when given proper goals, backed up by proper German support, and given terrain to compensate for their lessor firepower & lack of mobility IIRC...

Panzerknacker
05-18-2010, 04:22 PM
How easy every topic about italian weaponry is quickly turned into a discussion about the real combat value of the italian, tropps, if i was Italian I would be seriously distressed.

burp
05-24-2010, 09:45 AM
I'm italian and i'm not distressed. It's a question of pride for me.
Anyway in general italian tanks are poorly made, in most cases use outdated design concept, they are normally generated from obtuse request, produced in too much small number and last but not least used in the worst way. Italian Army isn't prepared for modern warfare, where mechanical vehicles play a pivotal role, they lack the culture needed for them. In general all Armies that fight in WWII don't understand the tank warfare in deep at the start of war. Also the Wermacht, with his main offensive terrestrial tactic Blitzkried based upon breaktrough of tanks, search a way to transport cavelry to battle field until before the start of WWII tu use the cavelry for rapid assault and fantery transportation.

fredl109
05-24-2010, 04:34 PM
Burp is right, this is not a question of being Italian or not, I have French is the same thing to criticize my country. The lack of preparation for war was obvious from our side. We had some good tanks and good aircraft, but production did not follow. the commandment was made by senior officers who had the first World War and were unable to conceive of a war of movement as the Germans had prepared. Our soldiers are as brave as the Italians, although Souvant controlled by officers and officers of values. But what to do against an enemy who had based his tactics on a rapid movement, supported by tanks may be less able to startup the French tanks, but commanded by generals of values.
They are those who put their country in this situation should be ashamed.
Regarding transport, we must know that all the armies present at the start of the conflict, seul the British army was 100% mechanical, even though the armed German was very well equipped, possessed hyppomobiles battalions.
Friendly Fred

Panzerknacker
05-27-2010, 05:15 PM
Well the germans were actually the most horse dependant army of the WW2 specially in the east. Thanks for the reply guys.

http://img200.imageshack.us/i/cannoneda7532batterie.jpg

leccy
06-02-2010, 03:55 PM
Something has been bugging me for a while now. I had a book 'Wavells Offensive' which I can not find now. One of the pics in it of I believe Italian Artillery in Tobruk or Bardia showed muzzle loaders in sangers. The caption said that the assumption was the guns were just decoys but rammers and buckets were on the walls and the sangers were constructed to enable the guns to be serviced.

Does anyone have any information on these weapons, who would have used them (Italian or local troops), were they dragged out as a desperate measure/decoys/on a units equipment table. Type of ammunition they may have had.

They seemed strange on a battlefield, even one in a theater that used lots of obsolete and obsolescent equipment.

Panzerknacker
06-03-2010, 04:52 PM
Something has been bugging me for a while now. I had a book 'Wavells Offensive' which I can not find now. One of the pics in it of I believe Italian Artillery in Tobruk or Bardia showed muzzle loaders in sangers. The caption said that the assumption was the guns were just decoys but rammers and buckets were on the walls and the sangers were constructed to enable the guns to be serviced.

Does anyone have any information on these weapons, who would have used them (Italian or local troops), were they dragged out as a desperate measure/decoys/on a units equipment table. Type of ammunition they may have had.

They seemed strange on a battlefield, even one in a theater that used lots of obsolete and obsolescent equipment.

You mean this one ?

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2523/79640082.jpg

I dont know what is the name of it, but is a breech loader I had seen this gun in newsreels finnish service in Karelia 1940, Aniway yes is obsolete no recoil absorbing mechanism at all.

leccy
06-03-2010, 07:39 PM
Thanks Panzerknacker

That's the pic, looked for along time many years ago about further info and never found anything out about these weapons.

Just one of those images that bugs you because it seems so out of place.

Panzerknacker
06-04-2010, 04:29 PM
Well probably is a decoy as you say, it was a XIX century weapon so honestly I dont think was actually fired by the italians. Is true that some of their weapons, specially the Breda MG looked like 1890 guns in spite of being newly built.:mrgreen:

Here you see some of the field artillery manufactured in that period, this is a 1939 newsreel showing inside Ansaldo works in Genoa.

http://www.archivioluce.com/archivio/jsp/schede/videoPlayer.jsp?tipologia=&id=&physDoc=18657&db=cinematograficoCINEGIORNALI&findIt=false&section=/

fredl109
06-05-2010, 05:29 AM
To answer your interrogation, here is a picture that sent me Kuno Gross, who shows a decoy used by the Italians at Tobruk. All the belligerents have used decoys.
Friendly fred

4460

leccy
06-05-2010, 10:18 AM
After doing a little search on google images I found the pic at Bardia again along with one with Rommel inspecting some of these guns.

They were identified as a Cannone da 149/35 and in use with the Italian forces (around 900 pieces)
A bit further searching and I found a 3d rendering site that had a pic of a very similar looking weapon identified as a Cannon Obice 149/12 Modello 14 also used during WW2

leccy
06-05-2010, 10:28 AM
fredl109

That pic looks like a Fiat 3000 (Italian copy/version of a Renault FT17) which was used by the Italian forces in WW2

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-Fiat3000-IonFonosch.jpg

Panzerknacker
06-05-2010, 11:25 AM
That piece was actually used by the Italians ?, no wonder they were sweeped by Wavell.
Nice picture Fred, an ulgy duck and decoy as must say.

fredl109
06-06-2010, 05:44 AM
Sorry for the translation (Google translation) its a lure and not decoy. My english is poor sorry.
Friendly Fred

psykfallet
08-14-2010, 08:27 AM
Hello I'm looking for information and pictures of italian anti-tank mines, I have found some brief info on wikipedia such as the Pignone bakelite mines. However I can't find any photos of any mines, or any information on wich were most commonly used.

leccy
08-14-2010, 09:49 AM
I dont know if this will help but its a 1943 US war department manual it seems to be fairly good for info covering various nations mines. you may get a better copy elsewhere (this is a downloadable scan of the origional book)

Fm-5-31-Land-Mines-and-Booby-Traps-1943 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/24560395/Fm-5-31-Land-Mines-and-Booby-Traps-1943)

This one you dont need to register for to download it seems

FM 5 31 Mines and Booby Traps 1943 (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM5-31.pdf)

psykfallet
08-14-2010, 10:47 AM
Thanks, I've found that too. would like some better photos though

fredl109
08-14-2010, 11:59 AM
For illustrate this , two photo , the first is a Bakelite mine and in the seconde photo you have two Bersaglieri with another type of mine.

4640

4641

leccy
08-14-2010, 01:09 PM
4 Italian mines pdf download (http://www.ammunitionpages.com/categories.php?cat_id=160)

psykfallet
08-14-2010, 04:30 PM
For illustrate this , two photo , the first is a Bakelite mine and in the seconde photo you have two Bersaglieri with another type of mine.

4640

4641
that first pic is nice, but hard to make out any details. However it doesnt look like the Pignone bakelite mines depicted on wikipedia so I have no clue what that is. The second is a german leichte panzermine though.

@Leccy, thanks found those too

fredl109
08-17-2010, 05:21 AM
You have another doc in this link:
http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.talpo.it/images/p053_1_00.png&imgrefurl=http://www.talpo.it/granata_carbone.html&usg=__xjmmkGLRVmajOKFuYmrMQsgbMYM=&h=543&w=409&sz=235&hl=fr&start=36&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=yD3dGgCoQqxWIM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522mine%2Bitaliane%2522%26start%3D2 0%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3D isch:1

and here:

4722

Friendly Fred

psykfallet
08-17-2010, 07:19 AM
thanks, very helpfull, also very strange no mention of Pignone P-1/P-2 in that chart

fredl109
08-17-2010, 05:52 PM
To provide additional information, I asked the question on the site Italie 1935 45 and I think my friends will be able to shed any further explanation.

psykfallet
08-17-2010, 09:16 PM
To provide additional information, I asked the question on the site Italie 1935 45 and I think my friends will be able to shed any further explanation.
That's nice of you, thanks :)

fredl109
08-18-2010, 05:54 AM
Regarding mines Pignone, my friend Giuseppe told me they were only the type 43, the only difference was that the contact pressure was different form. The first triggered a pressure of 50kg while the second triggering him to a pressure of 150kg. For information Pignone society still exists and is based in Florence under the name of Nuova Pignone. I hope the information will help you, I am also sending two cross-sectional drawings of its mines.
Friendly Fred

4723
1 type

4724
2 type

psykfallet
08-18-2010, 07:30 AM
thanks for the information

psykfallet
08-18-2010, 09:08 AM
Thank you for your help :). I'm wondering if you might help me with another task, I need some pictures of the optics of the cannone 47/32 :oops:

Panzerknacker
08-18-2010, 09:12 AM
To make the fuze "harder" in a mine is a tipical reaction to the antitank device being exploded by advancing infantry instead tanks, when you set it with more pressure you evidently dont want to "waste" you explosives in a running soldier and you definately target the vehicles instead.

fredl109
08-18-2010, 10:21 AM
For the 47/32 I suggest you read the post on the site http://www.italie1935-45.com/ This site is part of our Italie 1935-45 Forum I will send you a picture while waiting in finding more.
Sincerely Fred

4725

Panzerknacker
08-19-2010, 03:46 PM
For the 47/32 I suggest you read the post on the site http://www.italie1935-45.com/ This site is part of our Italie 1935-45 Forum I will send you a picture while waiting in finding more.
Sincerely Fred

4725

Is quite shoking to realize the italian never developed an infantry AT gun bigger/powerful that the Breda (Böhler design actually) after meeting heavy british armor like the Matida in a date early as december 1940.

fredl109
08-19-2010, 04:46 PM
The problem my dear Panzerknaker that they were behind on all their programs, they had ideas but no achievement, as you may have read in other message, the Italian industry was definitely not ready to make war, the arrival of anti-tank guns during the conflict will, as usual too little, too late. When you study the history of Italy during the second world war as we do on the site Italy 1935-45, the first thing that hits you in the eyes and challenges you, that's why he is committed Mussolini in this war when a few weeks before the conflict began during a meeting with leading industrial countries, they said it was Mussolini that they would be ready for the year 1943, we see how little lucidity Mussolini had to enter the conflict. In this made most of the Italian troops were very poorly equipped, the annual defense was more than theoretical, for example, when Mussolini ordered the attack against France the general commanding the troops Alpine rushed to Rome to explain it to Mussolini n had had absolutely no equipment required for such a campaign, it does nothing disturbs Mussolini ordered him to do with. I hope not to be bored with this long "speech, but as soon as one speaks of Italy in the Second World War, one wonders what has piqued Mussolini to fly back in a war that was already lost before and those without forgetting the bravery of Italian soldiers.
Friedly Fred
Translated with Google

fredl109
08-19-2010, 05:27 PM
To continue on the topic of Italian anti-tank guns, the only piece really valid after some transformations at the muzzle brake In particular with the gun was 75 model 32, but it was produced only from 1941 and only 172 pieces were completed until the armistice of 1943.
Friendly Fred

4728

Panzerknacker
08-19-2010, 09:38 PM
To continue on the topic of Italian anti-tank guns, the only piece really valid after some transformations at the muzzle brake In particular with the gun was 75 model 32, but it was produced only from 1941 and only 172 pieces were completed until the armistice of 1943.
Friendly Fred

4728


Well, seems good but again, those production numbers are plain ridiculous.

( edited to ad...)

I find some numbers of the 75/32 and the muzzle velocity was 540 mps, roughly similar to the german/french cannon Pak 97/38.

fredl109
09-19-2010, 06:01 PM
While searching on Italian mines I came across a particularly interesting on this topic. I'll post the link.
Friendships Fred

http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/europe/italy/index.html

VelvetClaw
08-04-2011, 10:43 PM
Does anyone know if these weapons were ever made for export, and if so, who got them?

fredl109
01-01-2012, 11:03 AM
Is quite shoking to realize the italian never developed an infantry AT gun bigger/powerful that the Breda (Böhler design actually) after meeting heavy british armor like the Matida in a date early as december 1940.

Hello Panzerknacker, it is not all made exact. The Italian possessed a piece the Canone da 90/53 that has been developed to the starting for the marine and like piece of DCA, but that they also used as piece anti Tank. He is has note that this cannon was superior to German 88mm, but as usual it was not produced in big quantity.
Fred regards

Dresden
11-09-2012, 08:44 PM
The Italians supplied troops for the Russian front, to ease munition problems Italy re-barreled Cacarno rifles with 8mm barrels and made a copy of the German 30 mm rifled grenade launcher GewereGrenateGerat (Grenade Launching Equipment) I happen to haave one of these in my collection, the German grenades fit perfectly.

leccy
11-10-2012, 09:52 AM
The Italians supplied troops for the Russian front, to ease munition problems Italy re-barreled Cacarno rifles with 8mm barrels and made a copy of the German 30 mm rifled grenade launcher GewereGrenateGerat (Grenade Launching Equipment) I happen to haave one of these in my collection, the German grenades fit perfectly.

Do you mean the rifles were re-chambered to 7.92mm and fired the same rounds as the Germans?

Grenade discharger is it something like these?

http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerrg2/index.html

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=47408

Dresden
11-10-2012, 08:51 PM
Yes, the two main differences are it will not fit a K98k and instead of the square thread on the barrel it has a V thread, the markings on the launcher are a backwards R back to back with a R, the case is the same except not waffenampt marked, there is an Italian stamp in the flap

seatofpants
12-06-2012, 02:30 PM
So I'm trying to find the make and model of a piece of artillery found at the Spanish Fort in Bizerte, Tunisia. Anyone familiar with it or could give me some primary sources to find it myself? Thanks for any help in this.

seatofpants
12-06-2012, 02:33 PM
http://i.imgur.com/AmRhd.jpg

Here is the post on forum.tunisia.com that I posted looking for this artillery-
http://forum.tunisia.com/threads/identification-of-a-cannon-at-the-spanish-fort-bizerte.6998/#post-265784

Here is the original post on reddit.com searching for the identification-
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/147wlm/can_anyone_help_me_identify_this_cannon_wwii/

DVX
12-11-2012, 12:29 PM
It could be a 76/50 model 1909, it has something likeness with it, but I'm not sure at all. Please post other photos...

Byron
08-28-2013, 11:16 PM
fredl109

That pic looks like a Fiat 3000 (Italian copy/version of a Renault FT17) which was used by the Italian forces in WW2

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-Fiat3000-IonFonosch.jpg

Italy used this AFV during the 1930s. It was intended, originally, to be the Medium tank in their armored formations (until a new Medium tank was developed). Budget constraints, among other factors, kept them from moving forward and the Centauro armored division was actually outfitted with these old worn out tanks during the occupation of Albania (but not for the invasion of Greece). They were not, however, used in any actual combat role during WW2 (to my knowledge).

Italy never developed a better ATG than the 47/32 because of two factors. (1) the army doctrine called for enemy tanks to be dealt with by the artillery (before 1938 there was no actual doctrine for tank-on-tank combat!) so infantry anti-tank weapons were not a focus and (2) economic/production issues.

fredl109
10-31-2013, 01:03 PM
http://i.imgur.com/AmRhd.jpg

Here is the post on forum.tunisia.com that I posted looking for this artillery-
http://forum.tunisia.com/threads/identification-of-a-cannon-at-the-spanish-fort-bizerte.6998/#post-265784

Here is the original post on reddit.com searching for the identification-
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/147wlm/can_anyone_help_me_identify_this_cannon_wwii/

Hello to all, as he said DVX is indeed a piece of 76/50, this old gun that was used to defend the fort and it is not part of antitank gun but simply to artillery.
Fred friendships

Frankly Dude Really
06-08-2015, 04:13 AM
You mean Panzerknacker...you welcome.

Like with the footballer bastian Schweinsteiger (in itself already a humorous name really), which some french(?) trainer on a TV interview corrupted to Scheisssteiner....and appeared to have said it unintentionally.
lol.

svartar_ravan
03-08-2017, 01:53 PM
Hi!

Recently i found some transport caps for Italian shells, i have been told its for time fuze mod 1906/17.
I hope some one can tell me more about this fuze and shells and to what artillery piece it belonged!
Also can someone tell me where the T stands for? On the left side of the last photo are some caps that are made from zinc/copper mixture? the rest is aluminium.

77957796779777987799

fert
03-09-2017, 02:00 AM
Hello,
mod 906/17 is a anti aircraft fuze modified from the old mod 1906 time and percussion fuze. Mod 906/17 is missing of the percussion mechanism, for this it's only a time fuze and a red T (tempo=time) was painted on cover and fuze.
this fuze was used on anti aircraft shell in 75CA and 77/28 anti aircraft gun.
here a 75CK anti aircraft shell:
7800

best regards

svartar_ravan
03-09-2017, 04:37 AM
Beutifull thank you verry much pretty intresting find!