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GermanSoldier
03-04-2007, 12:09 PM
Of all the German organizations during World War 2, the SS is by the far the most infamous- and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Geastapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many organization made up of three seperate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allegemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. The SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) and later, the Waffen-SS (Armed SS), were the other two branches that made up the structure of the SS.The Waffen-SS formed. formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Veryfungstruppe after the campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of the larger SS, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time World War 2 was over. Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of World War 2 while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat operations of all units in the German military. The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwafte, Kriegsmarines) as in the field it came under the direct tactial control of the OKW, althoug this notion is techinally incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allegemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.
http://i17.tinypic.com/2enyjdd.jpg

bas
03-04-2007, 04:49 PM
To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allegemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.


The Waffen-SS is justifiably vilified for the direct role it played in Hitler & Himmlers' Final Solution and the other war crimes they committed. Never forget this.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23394

GermanSoldier
03-04-2007, 06:24 PM
German Waffen/SS Video Clips. ENJOY!
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isg6FQPJXwo
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzMfto91-0E
Great Video Clips.

GermanSoldier
03-04-2007, 07:21 PM
Some pictures of the German Waffen/SS troops in World War 2.
http://i11.tinypic.com/2nl7hh3.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/35de2w2.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/4i5z9ra.jpg
Any information, pictures, squads, and etc on the German Waffen/SS troops would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
GermanSoldier

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 07:43 PM
Please look at my other topic on Waffen-SS photographs...lots of stuff! =D

slow bear
03-05-2007, 08:26 AM
Despite the entire "cultic" nature of the nazi beleif system there are many debates amongst historians , including degreed professionals, about the over all performence of the waffen ss involved in combat during WW2. My personal studies plus interviews with G.I. vets from the europian theater that had engaged the waffen ss in combat, proved enlightning to say the least!
The 1939 polish campaign did not do much more than reinforce the notion that the ss in general, & especially as a combat unit were marginal at best. The term "asphalt soldiers" came from this era of the organization & stuck with it despite excellent performence later in its career.
Early performence of the waffen ss engaged in combat on the western front(1940) seemed to indicate a fanatical zeal to the call of duty, but, showed incompetence on the tactical level. The waffen ss were to small an organization at the time to even consider competence regarding a strategic level. Problems regarding morality(western philosophy) in general & especially when engaged in combat with the British only garnered the ss as a body the dubious distinction as a criminal organization by the allies.
This should have been a wake up call to the upper levels of that organization, but as with all cults, reality seems to only come into view when its just to late. Despite the official announcement by FDR & the acceptence of this docket by all the allied powers engaged in that struggle, the ss would contiue to grow both in size & over all military effectivness well into 1944.
Starting with operation barbarrosa the waffen ss really came into its own & continued building its reputation as an elite combat organization regarding its eastern front performence. Attrition of the waffen ss units were unusually high in comparrison to the wehrmacht units during 1941 thru 1942. The ss totenkopf division virtually having a 100% turn over in its ranks by the spring of 1942. This can be attributed to the superior training of the wehrmacht in general & the vastly superior STRATEGIC/TACTICAL knowlege of wehrmacht senior officers such as Heinz Guderian/Erwin Rommel, which were both strategic/tactical professionals of the HIGHEST magnitude!!!
I am not saying that the ss did not have competent senior commanding officers, General Sepp Dietrich/Wilhelm Bittrich were qualified professionals for sure, but once again in comparisson with the wehrmacht senior officers, "Sepp & Willi" seemed subordinate in their knowlege regarding both strategy & logistics. Much waffen ss military success can be attributed to Hitler's favortisim to the ss loyal in regards to equipment distribution in both quanity/quality.
While the loss of both equipment/manpower versus their success' was a leading indicator that "all was not right" with in the waffen ss, the waffen ss organization as a whole did improve in performence from 1943 onwards. For example, the early fanaticism of the totenkopf's division concentration camp guards was transformed into an actual functional military organization after the divisions decimation of personel through 1942. Gone were the "party quacks" such as totenkopfs commander Theodore Eicke. Professional military commanders with experience to boot were now in charge of these ss divisions.
Tho the waffen ss continued to operate under their own leadership TACTICALLY, STRATIGICALLY they operated under the command of the wehrmacht's generals, F/M & from 1944 on increasingly under the command of OKH which doomed anything German.
The combat value of the waffen ss was seriously hampered from 1944 onwards by its association with the allgemeine ss. Waffen ss members increasingly sought out other branches of the German military to serve in as Germany's defeat was all to obvious. With "LEAKS" continually pouring out about names like Christian Wirth, Belzec etc., one could not afford to be associated with anything ss. Having gained a notoriety comparable with the Japanese involved in the "death march of bataan" the ss were on the road to infamy, & they knew it.
The most interesting feature of my studies center on loss/productivity of the waffen ss organization. For example; the U.S. marines showed a higher casualty rate "OVER ALL" than U.S. army personel including ALL theater's that the U.S. army was engaged in during that conflict. The difference is that for that slightly higher casualty rate the U.S, marines garnered a SIZABLE PRODUCTIVITY REPORT in terms of accomplishments!!!
The U.S. marines involved in the pacific theater fought on a AVERAGE tenacty level of that which the 101st A/B division fought at Bastogne!!! No one fought a MORE RESOLUTE OPPONENT during WW2 than what the allies faced in the pacific with the Japanese. With the U.S. marines reputation as an elite unit, the Japanese took fanaticism to the MAX!!! The only troops tougher than the "fight to the death" Japanese of TARAWA, saipan, & iwo jima were their U.S. marine opponents!!!
Special thanks to "ALL THE BRANCHES" of the U.S. military at the battle of okinawa as, tho smaller in size numerically, this made the battle at stalingrad look to be both "comical & laid back" in comparisson! Considering that the Japanese combatants of WW2 were only matched in tenacity previously by the Norwiegan BERSERKERS many years before, we must conclude some OBVIOUS facts regarding comparissons here.
The waffen ss TOOK HORENDOUS casualties in regards to their accomplishments. The U.S. marines CAUSED HORENDOUS losses on their Japanese opponents for a slightly higher casualty ratio than did standard U.S. army troops. Proper training & COMPETENT LEADERSHIP seems to come into play here! Both the nazi ss & imperial Japan had with no doubt cultic leanings regarding leadership worship.
The differnce that I can see is the Japanese "took it to the grave" regarding combat. The Japanese had excellent leadership, were well TRAINED, fanatical & brave soldiers beyond question. The waffen ss suffered in regards to quality leadership(in the beginning) were well INDOCTRINATED, semi fanatical & brave, to a point.
The U.S. marines faced a formidable, united & resolute enemy on the island of betio(tarawa) in 1943. These Japanese troops also contained a battalion of elite imperial marines & the island had been constructed into a well protected interlocking fortress. The japanese were well fed, reasonably educated, supurbably armed & fully united in their emperor worship to death.
The Russian soldiers that the ss encountered in Russia & specifically stalingrad were poorly fed, poorly educated, ADEQUATLY armed & ununited in thought, beleive system & communism in general. See the problem here? Both the Japanese & ss got their pants whipped off them! The "highly" rated waffen ss in practise seemed more a cultic organization built on an outdated pagan nordic beleif system corrupted with "personal" ambitions for monetary/political gain & a desire for a good looking uniform. Hence forth the term "asphalt soldiers".
As far as a combat organization goes, I rate the waffen ss on the low side of distinction. Favored with better pay, superior/more equipment, & generally better conditions than the wehrmacht, this organization acheived no better results IF even as good as the wehrmacht.The waffen ss seems to me to be better suited to serving tables & playing mandolins than trying to be elite soldiers.

Flammpanzer
03-05-2007, 09:20 AM
As far as a combat organization goes, I rate the waffen ss on the low side of distinction. Favored with better pay, superior/more equipment, & generally better conditions than the wehrmacht, this organization acheived no better results IF even as good as the wehrmacht.The waffen ss seems to me to be better suited to serving tables & playing mandolins than trying to be elite soldiers.

interesting point of view, but I am sure you are not right at all with that. there is a quite actual book from a british historian (forgot the name) who relates on combat reports and he comes to the concusion that the waffen-ss was indeed a very effective unit by all means. you point out the losses, but do not forget that the SS like the wehrmacht ALWAYS (expect the early years of the blitzkrieg) fought against superior enemies, they were always outclassed by numbers and often by other facts. the russian losses were even higher, btw.

the SS was alway the front-feuerwehr, which means they were put in action, where the combat was really hot. alone this is a sign that the waffen-ss could not be bunch of dish-serving mandoline-playing idiots you maybe know from stupid us-movies.

a general thing at last: the biggest problem of this forum is that we are ALL talking abouth things we DO NOT REALLY KNOW. we all have to relate to different sources and it is always a quesion of belief - in which source you believe (more). for my side, I am sure that the SS was mostly better than the wehrmacht-units and not worse than any allied-troops.

jens

GermanSoldier
03-06-2007, 10:04 PM
This is a Waffen Division that is well known for being one of the largest Waffen Divisions. Here is some information on this excellent Division.

The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded as part of the Waffen-SS during World War 2.

The 13th Handschar was the largest of these divisions, with 21,650 men. Its German name meant it was the 13th Division, a mountain formation (Gebirgs) of the SS (composed of none-German recruits). Name Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handzar) after the curved Turkish sword known as the Scimitar (Arabic: Khanjar): an historical symbol of Bosnia.

The Handschar were used to conduct operations against Yugoslav Partisans in the Balkan Mountains from February 1944 to September 1944, most of them had deserted to join the Yugoslav Partisans, fighting for Josip Broz Tito.

The Handshcar are infamous for being the only Waffen SS division to mutiny, and the first known troops to revolt from within the Nazi System.

If you have any squads, divisions, extra information, etc.on the Waffen please post your information here!

Flammpanzer
03-07-2007, 01:33 AM
yes. maybe quite interesting: most of the soldiers of this unit were MUSLIMS. they were fully allowed to practise their religious duties and they had the traditional hat (something like a féz), in combination with the german uniform a strange look.

jens

Chevan
03-07-2007, 04:48 AM
Well slow bear thanks for the post i fully agree with first part of it.
Guys let define the difference of SS and Waffen-SS.
SS was the Hitlers elite troops (on Nazy propogandic purposes).
They were good motivated ( pretty rather then educated).
As it mentioned the slow bear they had a absolutly superiority in the perfomence and supplies. And even when if the Wermach units in the end part of war had a shortage of everything the SS was full equipment( especialy tanks units). Not bad condition to be the "elite troops" , don't you think ;)
The Waffen-SS was the national units from the people of occuped states. They participated in the front battles, but its main "glory" ( at least in the Eastern front) was not the battlefild but the executions.
The Waffen-SS together with police battalions ( as it said the Hitler ) was universal instrumen for the Nazy politic of henocide. Germans used the national hate of people to each other in its aims.
One of the best example of this was the 14 Waffen-SS division "Galicia"which was formed in Ukraine in the late of 1943. They joined the ukraine volintaries under Germans command.
After the training the Galicia was sended the Eastern fron where in jule of 1944 was fully crushed in the its first battle.
Later this division was repaired but there was no sended to the fron never. Now they took part in "dirty work" in partisans areas of Poland and Slovacia.
The Ukrainian Galicia was famouse of its fiierce anti-polish ans anti-jewish atrosities.In authumn of 1944 it licvidated the Slovenian uprising, and in jenuary of 1945 it was sended to the Ugoslavia to execute the civil population who supported the partisans.
Another good example the 15 divisoon of Waffen-SS so callec "Lettish" who took active part in mass executions of civils in the 1942-43 in the Russia Belorussia and Ukraine.
Certainly Waffen-SS soldiers fought more desperatelly then the Wermach becouse the obviouse reason - they must be shoted immediatelly by Red Army.
The cruelty of Waffen-SS above the civils population during the so called "special anti-partisan operation" wondered even the Germans.

Cheers.

Panzerknacker
03-07-2007, 09:17 AM
The fight in thewarsaw uprising was particulary brutal for some SS units.

More info about the Handschar:

http://www.choiquehobbies.com.ar/revista01/html/rev/haschdare.htm

Ace Tankkiller
03-07-2007, 09:18 AM
Those 2 Youtube links,I noticed in the first video the tiger has a number 3 on it,doesn't that mean it was the 3rd tiger made?

Flammpanzer
03-07-2007, 10:16 AM
The fight in thewarsaw uprising was particulary brutal for some SS units.

one unit was evolved in that in a very brutal way, it was (Dr.) Oskar Dirlewangers waffen-SS-division, which mostly consisted of sentenced criminals. this was one of the most brutal SS-units ever and it was even not very much liked by other waffen-ss units. there is a nice book about this special unit ("The cruel hunters"). Dirlewanger himself was sentenced years before for sexual abuse of a girl. he died of severe injuries he got from fench guards in the prison where he was kept shortly after war.

a cruel monster of history.

jens

GermanSoldier
03-07-2007, 04:18 PM
By 1935, the Leibstandarte regiment had been joined by the Germania and Deutschland regiments. They operated under the Verfugungstruppe, which was a unit of divisional strength. Hitler had made it clear that the Verfugungstruppe was "a standing armed unit exclusively at my disposal". It was to take its place in the army's order of battle. The para-military Totenkpofverbande ( Death Heads Unit) had the task " to clear up special tasks of a police nature"-Hitler. However, 1935, any idea of battle seemed a long way off in Nazi Germany.
The Verfugungstruppe trained as if it was a part of the Wehrmacht. Men in it trained with live ammunition in full military manoeuvers. However, when war broke out in Septemember 1939, the military future of the Waffen-SS still hung in the balance. Hitler remained cautious that, untried in combat, it would take heavy casualties and lose an credibility that it had. This proved to be the case when Germany attacked Poland. The Verfugungstruppe suffered heavy losses, despite the ultimate victory, thus confirming what the Wehrmacht's hierarchy had said all along - it simply did not have the expertise to fight.

The massive succes of the Wehrmacht from 1939 to 1941 kept the SS in a secondary position with regards to military matters in the field of combat. With the succes that that the Wehrmact had, not even Himmler could question its effectiveness or argue that the SS- being more ideologically pure- would do better.

To make up the losses from the Polish Campaign, Himmler created two more divisions. However, he could risk starting these from scratch, as they would be equally as inexperienced as the units that had attacked Poland. Therefore, he used men from the Totenkpofverbande as they were volunteers and already trained in the use of infantry weapons. Their ranks were swelled with uniformed policemen.

The field units of the SS were known as the Waffen-SS. In the attack on Poland in September 1939, their impact had been a great cost to themselves. They made up for this with their input into the attack of France in the Spring of 1940. Here the Waffen-SS was very succesful. Hitler awarded six SS commanders the Knight's Cross and ordered Himmler to create another Division. Hitler attributed this succes to a "fierce will- the sense of superiority personified."

The new Division was called Wiking. It was to be filled with volunteers from the countries conquered by Germany in their attacks on Wester Europe. In several countries there were established fascists parties- Quisling's in Norway, Degrelle's in Belgium and Mussert's in Holland. 50,000 Dutchmen, 40,000 Belgians (Flemish and Walloons), 20,000 Frenchmen and 6,000 Norwegians and Danes enlisted in the Wafffen-SS before the war came to an end.

Panzerknacker
03-07-2007, 07:00 PM
one unit was evolved in that in a very brutal way, it was (Dr.) Oskar Dirlewangers waffen-SS-division, which mostly consisted of sentenced criminals. this was one of the most brutal SS-units ever and it was even not very much liked by other waffen-ss units. there is a nice book about this special unit ("The cruel hunters"). Dirlewanger himself was sentenced years before for sexual abuse of a girl. he died of severe injuries he got from fench guards in the prison where he was kept shortly after war.

a cruel monster of history.

I read somewhere that part of that brigade consist in ukranians and other non-germans, you haver more info about it ?

Flammpanzer
03-08-2007, 03:15 AM
ukrainians and russians were put in this unit (SS-Sturmbrigade "Dirlewanger"), but most of them were simply criminals - even people from KZs found themselves in this unit, which was used against partisans and which was evolved in a lot of cruel actions against civilians. the following texts are in german, but maybe you can figure out some important facts.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger

regards

jens

GermanSoldier
03-08-2007, 04:09 PM
Those 2 Youtube links,I noticed in the first video the tiger has a number 3 on it,doesn't that mean it was the 3rd tiger made?

No it does not mean it is the 3rd tiger made.

Panzerknacker
03-08-2007, 06:56 PM
ukrainians and russians were put in this unit (SS-Sturmbrigade "Dirlewanger"), but most of them were simply criminals - even people from KZs found themselves in this unit, which was used against partisans and which was evolved in a lot of cruel actions against civilians. the following texts are in german, but maybe you can figure out some important facts.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger)

regards



Danke ¡¡

I found some chilling images of that brigade D...like this::shock:

Flammpanzer
03-09-2007, 08:28 AM
Danke ¡¡

Bitte sehr, stets zu Ihren Diensten, Herr Panzerknacker! ;)

the pic looks strange indeed. do you think they tried to hide their faces in order to prevent a recognition after war and not to be punished for their crimes? maybe the mask is just used to achieve a psychological effect.

I have seen such masks on croatian ustasha-warriors in WW2.

jens

Panzerknacker
03-09-2007, 10:01 AM
the pic looks strange indeed. do you think they tried to hide their faces in order to prevent a recognition after war and not to be punished for their crimes? maybe the mask is just used to achieve a psychological effect.


I dont know the reason but if is for psicological reason work with me...I am scared already.



Bitte sehr, stets zu Ihren Diensten, Herr Panzerknacker!

Oh, no worry i will keep my work as usual.

GermanSoldier
03-15-2007, 05:42 PM
Waffen/SS snipers were great help for the Axis powers in Normandy. Excellent traininig, guns, scopes, and positions gave them the edge in the battles of Normandy. I do not have alot information on these expert snipers, but I have some pictures.
Here are some Waffen/SS Snipers

Waffen/SS Sniper in Normandy
http://i16.tinypic.com/42vbrk7.jpg

Waffen/SS Sniper Helmet
http://i17.tinypic.com/473p1zo.jpg

GermanSoldier
03-15-2007, 09:15 PM
Here is the preferred gun of the Waffen/SS Snipers

Kar 98k
http://i17.tinypic.com/2yl6175.jpg

Top of the Gun
http://i15.tinypic.com/4giq9fs.jpg

Top of the Gun Opened and Ready for Ammo
http://i19.tinypic.com/4bt0rrr.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-16-2007, 03:42 PM
Do remember that original German WWI rifles were also very popular amongst German snipers (Waffen-SS included)

For instance, in your black & white photograph of the Waffen-SS sniper, you can see that the sniper is using the original WWI rifle.

I feel so stupid, but what was the name of it again? G-something...

GermanSoldier
03-16-2007, 05:37 PM
I feel so stupid, but what was the name of it again? G-something...
The name of the gun was the German Mauser. I never knew that German Waffen/SS snipers used this gun. Thanks for telling me that!

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-17-2007, 08:49 AM
No no no...I mean the model. For instance, the most obbundant in WW2 was a K98... this WWI rifle is G-something... (G as in Gewehr)

Chevan
03-17-2007, 12:04 PM
ukrainians and russians were put in this unit (SS-Sturmbrigade "Dirlewanger"), but most of them were simply criminals - even people from KZs found themselves in this unit, which was used against partisans and which was evolved in a lot of cruel actions against civilians. the following texts are in german, but maybe you can figure out some important facts.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger

regards

jens

Dear Flammpanzer we could find the article in wiki without your help and certainly we have already read about Dirlivanger SS-brgade. The more interestting personaly for me (and not only for me ) is that the relation to the SS units INSIDE Germany. In fact the lot of people in you country today think no like the another world. I heared the point thet the SS was elite troops wjich simply did its soldiers work. one former SS veteran ( i forgot his name)wrote a book "The soldiers like another" about his partisipation in SS.
Tell us please what do people in germany ( young people) think about participation of SS units in the front - were it mostly usial units which simply desperatively fought or it was the instrument for suppression of civilians and partisants? ;)

Cheers.

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-17-2007, 12:07 PM
the pic looks strange indeed. do you think they tried to hide their faces in order to prevent a recognition after war and not to be punished for their crimes? maybe the mask is just used to achieve a psychological effect.

It's actually a camoflauge mask.

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-18-2007, 08:54 PM
That's actually an airsoft gun v.v

GermanSoldier
03-19-2007, 03:06 PM
That's actually an airsoft gun v.v

Thanks for stating that. It looks like a real Kar98K to me. Sorry for that!

GermanSoldier
03-19-2007, 03:10 PM
A REAL KAR98K IMAGE
http://i10.tinypic.com/2lwu7oo.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-19-2007, 04:15 PM
Thanks for stating that. It looks like a real Kar98K to me. Sorry for that!

you can tell by the 'clip' ;)

GermanSoldier
03-19-2007, 04:19 PM
you can tell by the 'clip' ;)

yeah, after you told me that I looked at the pictures again. Then when I saw the clip I knew it was an airsoft gun.

GermanSoldier
03-26-2007, 04:02 PM
A Waffen SS Uniform
http://i3.tinypic.com/401eutu.jpg

patrick
04-01-2007, 05:09 AM
To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allegemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.


And rightly so, this is just a myth created to cover up the fact that the Waffen-SS was a instrumental part in the holocaust. There is lots of evidence of W-SS soldiers who takes part in mass executions of civilians in (mainly, since the Einsatz units where most active here) Russia, but also in other countries.
Units like the SS-Kavallerie Brigade (which was later upgraded to 8. SS-Kavallerie-Division Florian Geyer), 1. SS-Infanterie-Brigade (mot) (later upgraded to 18. SS-Freiwilligen Panzergrenadier Division Horst Wessel), and so on, was heavly involved in assisting the Einsatz units. There is also evidence of W-SS soldiers being posted, for longer or shoter times, to Einsatz units and taking part in mass executions of civilians in the Soviet Union.

Even if there was some elite formations in the W-SS (mainly the early units), most of the divisions was not. They mainly constisted of a small cadre of germans and was primarly built around volks deutche (ethnic germans), and volunteers from the occupied territories. Most of these units was equipped with surplus equipment (mainly taken from France, Yugoslavia and so on) and was mainly meant to combat partisans and other irregular units. When put into frontline duties, these divisions did suffer horrendously.
Some of - if not all - of these units also suffered from a acute shortage of men, most of these divisions was in fact just a beefed up a brigade and lacked support weapons and heavy equipment.

When it comes to the Dirlewanger division, i would recommend the book - The Cruel Hunters: SS-Sonder-Kommando Dirlewanger Hitler's Most Notorious Anti-Partisan Unit by French MacLean. Even if the book has gaps, mainly because of lack of evidence in the archives, its a book I strongly do recommend.

Flammpanzer
04-02-2007, 05:56 AM
Dear Flammpanzer we could find the article in wiki without your help and certainly we have already read about Dirlivanger SS-brgade. The more interestting personaly for me (and not only for me ) is that the relation to the SS units INSIDE Germany.

okay, so I must excuse this. sorry, it will not happen again. :-?


In fact the lot of people in you country today think no like the another world. I heared the point thet the SS was elite troops wjich simply did its soldiers work. one former SS veteran ( i forgot his name)wrote a book "The soldiers like another" about his partisipation in SS.
Tell us please what do people in germany ( young people) think about participation of SS units in the front - were it mostly usial units which simply desperatively fought or it was the instrument for suppression of civilians and partisants?

young people here are not very interested in that era of history, but the whole tendency is to judge hard all the crimes that SS-units and also wehrmacht-units commited on the fronts, especially those which were set against civilians. there is no glorification of the SS at all, despite with some stupid neo-nazi-folks that are dreaming of a good and glorious past. most people here are very aware of the brutal treatment of the jewish and the whole engagement of the SS and waffen-ss in the holocaust.

allthough I have the same opinion that all the crimes never should be forgotten and that had to be judged hard, I am a bit surpised that some here are trying to prove that the waffen-ss was a bunch of bad equipped, bad fighting foreign guys which achieved hardly no effectiveness on the battlegrounds. maybe you have those pictures in mind from the TV-series band of brothers where a small us unit nearly wipes out a whole batallion of waffen-ss (with wrong uniform btw., all the field-units hat camouflaged uniforms by that time and no feldgrau). if all us soldiers fought like that (and all german), the war would have been over one week after D-day ...

I can understand that everyone is thinking "his" country had the bravest and best soldiers, but I am quite sure the waffen-SS was not so bad like many think here. from that what I have read so far, I am convinced that most units were well trained and highly motivated, despite a better equipment than most wehrmacht units. front reports from allies (I have recently read a book about the battles here in the area where I live) very often point out that waffen-ss-units were hard opponents unitl the end of the war.

maybe you also found this before, but this is an interesting report of some US guys playing SS-troops from a german TV-magazine. the undertone of the comment is very critical and judges the acting. this would be absolutely impossible here in germany, as a "soldier" says in the interview (a former german who lives in the states). maybe the report shows a bit what many germans think of the SS ....

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/547223

jens

Kraut
04-02-2007, 07:13 AM
Hey,

I am from Germany, too.
The father of my neighbour was in the SS and told me much about this time.

He told that you could'nt join the Waffen SS if you are smaller than 1,80meter.
He joined the SS hisself, because he believed that Germany could win the war. He was in the "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" until 1944 than he was shot in the thigh by an russian sniper. So he could survive the war in a hospital.

Because of the stories he told me, today I don't think that the SS were only kind of monsters without feelings..

Regards,

Jan

PS: Sorry for bad English

Chevan
04-02-2007, 07:55 AM
okay, so I must excuse this. sorry, it will not happen again. :-?

Well Flammpanzer thanks a lot for the detailed spreaded post.



young people here are not very interested in that era of history, but the whole tendency is to judge hard all the crimes that SS-units and also wehrmacht-units commited on the fronts, especially those which were set against civilians. there is no glorification of the SS at all, despite with some stupid neo-nazi-folks that are dreaming of a good and glorious past. most people here are very aware of the brutal treatment of the jewish and the whole engagement of the SS and waffen-ss in the holocaust.

Oh if we do hear about holocaust again so the question is appears.
And how many germans believes in the official Holocaust? I heared in the Gernany and Austria there is the special low which forbid any denial of official version. Do you hear about billions marks of compensation for the victims of Holocaust?


allthough I have the same opinion that all the crimes never should be forgotten and that had to be judged hard, I am a bit surpised that some here are trying to prove that the waffen-ss was a bunch of bad equipped, bad fighting foreign guys which achieved hardly no effectiveness on the battlegrounds. maybe you have those pictures in mind from the TV-series band of brothers where a small us unit nearly wipes out a whole batallion of waffen-ss (with wrong uniform btw., all the field-units hat camouflaged uniforms by that time and no feldgrau).
He ha
well i know the holliwood version of WW2 when in the best traditions of StarWars the small group of allies soldiers finished the whole battalions of SS. ;)
I have to agree this stupid propoganda ( but thats funny though).


if all us soldiers fought like that (and all german), the war would have been over one week after D-day ...

That's right the war should finish for the two-three weeks after D-Day :D right after the brave american guys took the battle in its hands( the Red Army in the holliwood "masterpieces" look aslo like a herd of idiots)


I can understand that everyone is thinking "his" country had the bravest and best soldiers, but I am quite sure the waffen-SS was not so bad like many think here. from that what I have read so far, I am convinced that most units were well trained and highly motivated, despite a better equipment than most wehrmacht units. front reports from allies (I have recently read a book about the battles here in the area where I live) very often point out that waffen-ss-units were hard opponents unitl the end of the war.

Well you say the Waffen-SS was highly motivated.What does it mean?
Do you mean the they were ready to everything for the name of Nazi ideology?

maybe you also found this before, but this is an interesting report of some US guys playing SS-troops from a german TV-magazine. the undertone of the comment is very critical and judges the acting. this would be absolutely impossible here in germany, as a "soldier" says in the interview (a former german who lives in the states). maybe the report shows a bit what many germans think of the SS ....

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/547223

jens
No i did not see this tv-issure, but i wath on the tv the report from the litle polish village near the polish-german border. The germans and poles meets in here , dress the ww2 uniform , drive on the ww2 vechicle ... nice kidding guys.
The some of interesting photo Kovalsky shewed for us in the other thread.
So i've noticed the some young germans mens who were dressed on SS uniform.


Cheers.

redalb2253
04-02-2007, 10:33 AM
One of the best if not the best was the 5th Wiking Division, as for tought german troops the 2nd Para at Monte Cassino.

patrick
04-02-2007, 04:16 PM
allthough I have the same opinion that all the crimes never should be forgotten and that had to be judged hard, I am a bit surpised that some here are trying to prove that the waffen-ss was a bunch of bad equipped, bad fighting foreign guys which achieved hardly no effectiveness on the battlegrounds.

As I said before, the early divisions was - almost to the end - some of the best divisions fielded by the German Armed forces. Divisions like Das Reich, Frundsberg etc. is - rightly - seen as elite formations. Others, like Nederland, Kama, Landstorm Nederland, Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (which was made up by upgrading SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger) is as far away from these units when it comes to equippment and personal. Or would you call Dirlewnagers gang for a elite formation?

There is also no denying that a lot of the Waffen-SS personal was Volksdeutche (ethnic germans), i.e. Prinz Eugen, Nordland, Maria Theresia, Horst Wessel and so on. Since the Waffen-SS was forbidden - until 1944 - to conscript reichdetuche, they had to use Volksdeutche.
People also seems to forget that some of the W-SS division wasn't - at least when they were formed - to fight against regular units. Divisions like Handschar, Kama, Karstjäger and so on, was primarly used to fight partisans, and thats also the answer to why some of the divisions was rather poorly equipped. As the German fronts was moving closer to many of these soldiers homes, many deserted, and the divisions moral plummed. The Handschar division was by the end of the war, no more than a Kampfgruppe consiting of the divisions germans, volksdeutche and a few bosians.

As with all Wehrmacht units in the end, the W-SS had to use what ever was at their disposal, which meant that the last Divisions had to be equipped with what was left.


maybe you have those pictures in mind from the TV-series band of brothers where a small us unit nearly wipes out a whole batallion of waffen-ss (with wrong uniform btw., all the field-units hat camouflaged uniforms by that time and no feldgrau). if all us soldiers fought like that (and all german), the war would have been over one week after D-day ...

As far as the units outfits nothing is impossible, the germans had to do with what they could find, it's also obvious that the germans isn't a elite formation. It's probably some very hastly formed unit, that just been sent to fight the allied forces.
And another thing, this incident is noted in the units wardiary, and acutally happend.
I wonder just if people would have reacted differently if a W-SS unit had shot up a lot of americans?


from that what I have read so far, I am convinced that most units were well trained and highly motivated, despite a better equipment than most wehrmacht units.

Some where, most where not. Usually the divisions made up by mostly germans, and to some extent volksdeutche, is seen as the best divisions. They were also equipped with the best equippent, mostly because these divisions was meant to fight regular divisions.
The later divisions was made up of what was available, both when it comes to soldiers and equipment.


front reports from allies (I have recently read a book about the battles here in the area where I live) very often point out that waffen-ss-units were hard opponents unitl the end of the war.

Thats correct, som of the last defenders of Berlin where volunteers from Sweden, Spain, France and Holland.
But again, there were 38 W-SS divisions (plus divisions that was scrapped and their numbers reused), and most of these divisions were far - when it comes to equipment and personal - to LAH, Nordland, Das Reich, Wiking, Totenkopf, Hohenstaufen, Frundsberg, Nordland, Hitler Jugend and Nord.
These divisions where equipped with the top equipment, divisions like SS-Polizei, Handschar, Prinz Eugen, Reichsführer SS and so on wasn't.

Flammpanzer
04-06-2007, 12:12 PM
And another thing, this incident is noted in the units wardiary, and acutally happend.

maybe true, but it still remains a movie.


I wonder just if people would have reacted differently if a W-SS unit had shot up a lot of americans?

no, it would be the same to me and it would also look ridiculous like in that case. unbelivable hollywood-crap like most scenes of many other movies like "saving private ryan" f.e. it is always the same pattern: a small bunch of brave us guys is killing germans, who do not know how to use their rifles, by divisions without hardly any losses within their own rows. so my theory still is that many people believe that the german forces were a hord of criminal idiots shouting around and only be waiting to be killed by the good one, because they always have these pictures in mind. if you look at the british para-losses of the battle of arnheim, you can imagine that they were able to kick some asses, too.


As far as the units outfits nothing is impossible, the germans had to do with what they could find, it's also obvious that the germans isn't a elite formation. It's probably some very hastly formed unit, that just been sent to fight the allied forces.

this sounds logic indeed, you may be right with that.

@mr chevan:


Well you say the Waffen-SS was highly motivated.What does it mean?
Do you mean the they were ready to everything for the name of Nazi ideology?

yes, something like that. there is enough proof for that. f. e. deserting soldiers were much more often from wehrmacht units and the whole "esprit" of the w-ss was quite high up to the end (I also know that in the latter phase of the war the W-SS did not only consist of volunteers). maybe this has something to to with the thoughts of the post-war-situation. ss-members knew well, that they had to await a bad treatment if not death after surrendering.

jens

slow bear
04-09-2007, 09:06 PM
Sorry, been away for a while Flammpanzer! The whole SS organization never impressed me. The cultic mentality of the organization OVER ALL & FAVORTISIM by their boss in superior numbers/quality of equipment, better pay etc. shows me little in being an elite organization. Their "hard fought" battles against unarmed citizens including women & children brings about as much meaning to the term "elite soldiers" as does general custer's so called "elite calvery" troops slaughter of unarmed/starved indians during the late 1800's in America.
I mean look at the comparrison's Flampanzer, & tell me if I'm not correct. Take the Africa Korps for example. Just ordinary Wehrmacht troops, right? WRONG!!! Under general Rommel's command originally these "ordinary" Wehrmacht troops did BECOME elite! General Rommel, in my opinion, was the FINEST field commander to command an army in all of WW2 bar none!!! Both his strategic/tactical skills were absolutly unequaled & coupled with a "sixth sence", BRAVERY/BRAVADO & cunningness he brought new meaning to the words "elite military unit"! I mean my God, even the allies wished they had him on their side. If general Rommel had been working for Britan instead of general Montgomery, hitler's third reich would have been over run in 1943!!!!! Flammpanzer, look closly at the following facts...the Africa Corps was operating on a hostile climated land mass seperated by a contested sea. ALL supplies had to be ferried across this sea to the DAK by an increasingly incompetent/hesitant Italian navy. Supplies became increasingly short in number as the conflict dragged on. A lack of these supplies coupled with allied air/naval/infantry/armour/artillery supperiority & every thing else needed by an army simply over whelmed the DAK through ATTRITION.
So successful & so serious was the threat of the DAK that they tied up the entire British European army. I mean the British had to enlist New Zealand/Australian troops to help stem general Rommels outrageous successe's. Still this was not enough as the DAK handled the British/Common Wealth troops with ridiculous ease despite allied superiority in all supplies & quanity of weapons of war then available including naval/air bombardment.
The DAK had become SO ELITE that the Americans had to initiate "operation torch" in the rears of the DAK to destroy them. Still the DAK came on & boxxed the ears of the American troops at Kasserine pass, leaving many Americans imprisoned & the survivors running around like frightened children! Flammepanzer, how could you fail to recognize general Rommel & the DAK as truly elite soldiers when compared to the Wafen SS who always could count on the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe for support when engaged in operations???? Who could general Rommel & the DAK count on for support? The Italians were it, & I'm NOT cutting down the Italian's, but the Italian's were the reason general Rommel ended up leading the DAK into north africa in the first place. The italians being overpowered/overrun by spear wielding Ethiopians gives an account to the combat worthiness of the Italian troops Rommel & the DAK could count on for support.
Flammpanzer, the DAK was/is an elite combat corps because they earned it through performance. Against impossable odds, fighting in EXTREME conditions & ISOLATED general Rommel & the DAK tied up the ENTIRE EUROPIAN ALLIED COMBINED RESOURCES including most air resources & all the NAVAL/LAND FORCES COMBINED!!!!!!!!
You want the elite of the elite regarding German elite troops during WW2? Just look at a little known "small" battle on an island named Crete. The success of the German paratroops/mountain troops engaged in this struggle is second to none during all theaters of operation in WW2 including the allied operations. Again, against seemingly impossable odds, these "ELITE" soldiers kicked the British/Common Wealth troops not only completly out of Europe but humiliated the British empire big time. I mean when those paratroops/mountain soldiers got thru with them, the survivors were so demoralized that they were only fit for modeling panties & bra's!!!
There's more to an "elite" military organization than just a fancy uniform, great pay, square bashing & being told that "your a bunch of super men"!!! Sure the Waffen SS fought & fought hard, at least on the eastern front, but compare their success's with general Rommel & the DAK or the paratroops/mountain soldiers during the Crete operation & you should easily be able to pick out the difference!
One last note tho not related to the above subject...the way general Rommel faced his death was just another example of his QUALITY of person. To save hardship on others he took his own life with out a squabble. I beleive he would have done this also for even the lowliest private in the DAK. General Rommel was not just a great commander, he was a courageous soldier with the highest of moral standings ADMIRED by both sides in that conflict. No wonder the DAK pulled off the impossable so many, many times!

Flammpanzer
04-10-2007, 05:35 AM
thanks for your detailed post, bear. but again, I have to point out some things. I have never said or stated before, that the fallschirmjäger or some other troops like the DAK are no elite troop when you look close at them. but in your statement, you act like the W-SS ONLY "fought" against civilians, that is not true. sure, there were a lot of crimes that happened and the W-SS had to be judged for that. furthermore, I NEVER would say that the W-SS IS AN ELITE FORMATION BECAUSE IT EXECUTED CIVILIANS. that would be sick ... again: as far as I look at the information of battle-effectiveness, the W-SS was in most cases a better enemy for the allies than most wehrmacht-troops. I would say the paras were equal.

it is interesting that so many are trying to put the W-SS down as a children-slaughtering hord of criminals (indeed, most were!) with hardly any value on the battlefield. I still do not believe that at all.

jens

Splinter54
05-26-2007, 03:54 PM
He shows some W-SS Equippement
Click (http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=azazel87&p=r)

PS: And i found this - he shows some Fallschirmjäger Equippement
Click (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Stugace)

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
05-28-2007, 07:17 AM
Yeah, I've seen that stuff. Pretty cool, ain't it?

1000ydstare
05-28-2007, 09:27 AM
The SS also carried out mass killings of the British rear guard at Dunkirk.

The Glosters, Stafordshires, Warwicshires and many of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, among others, were killed in "revenge" for putting up a fight.

It is worth noting that in most cases the units that had taken the brunt of the resistance treated the British with respect. They were then passed BACK to the SS for guarding and imprisonment.

In "revenge" they were herded in to barns and grenaded or machine gunned in ditches.

Elite? Doing a soldiers job? No, they were idiots with diseased minds, and that disease was the Nazi cults ethos and beliefs. Non of the SS can be admired, even the recruits from other nations were generally the scum of that countries earth (ie the Bosnias and Serbs, Romanians etc).

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
05-28-2007, 11:26 AM
The SS also carried out mass killings of the British rear guard at Dunkirk.

The Glosters, Stafordshires, Warwicshires and many of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, among others, were killed in "revenge" for putting up a fight.

It is worth noting that in most cases the units that had taken the brunt of the resistance treated the British with respect. They were then passed BACK to the SS for guarding and imprisonment.

In "revenge" they were herded in to barns and grenaded or machine gunned in ditches.

Elite? Doing a soldiers job? No, they were idiots with diseased minds, and that disease was the Nazi cults ethos and beliefs. Non of the SS can be admired, even the recruits from other nations were generally the scum of that countries earth (ie the Bosnias and Serbs, Romanians etc).

Oh, this brings up an argument. I'd have to disagree with you.

Most young men joined the Waffen-SS as a fighting force because they were more well equipped than the Wehrmacht, and they offered better pay. Most of the SS were doing soldier jobs, and yes, they were elite. Everyone country commits a war crime. And yes, I do look down on the Waffen-Schutzstaffel for actions at Dunkirk.

But, over a six year war, the say... 100, at most, Waffen-SS soldiers who massacred the BEF at Dunkirk doesn't mean the thousands of other SS over the time span of the war
were idiots with diseased minds, and that disease was the Nazi cults ethos and beliefs

And because of Hollywood, and people spreading the idea that the entire SS were 'Goose Stepping Goones dressed in black and murdering every 'unwanted' individual they see' makes me go crazy.

My great uncle was in the W-SS in the Eastern Front and faught to the death untill he was wounded. Never, ever (And he still lives by this) did he ever see any of his comrades or himself commit acts of genocide or war crimes.

Hope you get the picture ;)

Sgt.Malarky
06-05-2007, 05:03 PM
The Waffen-SS was one of the most feared force of WW2.They wore black trench coats,standerd military uniform,or something that makes them blend in with their surroundings.

Sgt.Malarky
06-05-2007, 05:10 PM
The Waffen-SS was one of the most feared force of WW2.They wore black trenchcoats,black helmets with the SS insignia on it,standerd military uniforms or something to blend them in with their surrounding.They were also in charge of the death camps.

Digger
06-07-2007, 04:57 AM
Most youg Germans today know little of the war let alone have any knowledge of the SS or the role the SS played i hitler's war. The German education system as Australia's education system only covers the very basics of WWII. Heck there are kids doing history courses who do not know of Adolf Hitler!

SS soldiers returning to Germany on leave, generally had a two week period of 'fattening' up behind the lines before commencig their home leave. during this period they would udertake light duties which could include security and patrol work or the garrisoning of 'select areas', including concentration camps. Not many members of the SS were totally ignorant of the excesses of Hitler's Germany as quoted from a former SS soldier I once knew.

Regards digger

Splinter54
06-07-2007, 05:36 AM
I would not sign that completely. For sure the pupils learn less about WW2, but much about the time before it.
Here in Germany the pupils learn muuuccchhh about the Weimarer Republik and the beginning of the National Socialistic Mouvement - i had History as main subject for four semesters and around one semester we made the Weimarer Republik, one semester the time from 1934 until 1945 mixed up with masses of blaming on Germany for the persucation of the Jews (was probably the main aspect in this semester - WW2 was not as important in history for our teacher). Most ridicolous was, that the Reichskristallnacht was more important for him than the Röhm Putsch and the taking over of the full control of the SS as the armed political arm of the NSDAP.
Compared to the time we made the Imperial Time (Industrialisation) and the Cold War era together with the nowadays history, which were only two semesters for a huge timeline is just ridicolous!

aly j
09-20-2008, 05:20 AM
yes. maybe quite interesting: most of the soldiers of this unit were MUSLIMS. they were fully allowed to practise their religious duties and they had the traditional hat (something like a féz), in combination with the german uniform a strange look.

jens

im starting 2 think that the whole german army
back in ww2 was full of forieners