PDA

View Full Version : T-35 & other multiturret tanks.



Trooper
08-25-2006, 09:45 AM
Whatever, it was it's a monster..

http://community.webshots.com/photo/550491773/2977434710089413999aXlFsc#

Chevan
08-25-2006, 11:39 AM
Whatever, it was it's a monster..

http://community.webshots.com/photo/550491773/2977434710089413999aXlFsc#
This is first soviet heavy T-35. It was prodused 61 T-35 different of modification since 1932-1939.
http://www.armsgallery.com.ru/pictures/tanks/rus_t35_11b.jpg
http://www.armsgallery.com.ru/pictures/tanks/rus_t35_12b.jpg
in spite of great mass (52 tonn) the tank had just 23-mm armor - too thin for effective fight in 1941.
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/t35/t35.html

1000ydstare
08-25-2006, 12:15 PM
I always had this configuration pegged for a french creation. Don't know why.

Chevan
08-25-2006, 02:03 PM
I always had this configuration pegged for a french creation. Don't know why.
It's look like british 5-towers tank A.I.E.I «Independent» (1929). Has anybody photo of this monster?

Trooper
08-25-2006, 03:35 PM
It's look like british 5-towers tank A.I.E.I «Independent» (1929). Has anybody photo of this monster?

Thanks for identifying the T-35.

The Vickers Independent is another one I have never heard of before. This is the only picture google images comes up with...

Chevan
08-25-2006, 04:12 PM
Thanks for identifying the T-35.

The Vickers Independent is another one I have never heard of before. This is the only picture google images comes up with...
...at any time if you please.
The Vickers Independent was experimental british tank. It was built not much of these tanks, therefore the photo is so rare.

Panzerknacker
08-25-2006, 07:38 PM
The Independent had a central gun turret with the 3 pdr (47 mm) gun. To the front two subsidiary turrets each with a Vickers MG, to the rear two more turrets, again each with a single Vickers MG but able to elevate to engage aircraft.

A single prototype was produced in 1926.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/IWM-KID-109-Vickers-Independent.jpg

Nickdfresh
08-25-2006, 08:11 PM
The T-35 seems almost to be based on the WWI "land battleship" notion, as does The Vickers' Independent. Seems to shout more of a political propeganda statement more than it does military effectiveness.

Chevan
08-26-2006, 03:11 AM
The T-35 seems almost to be based on the WWI "land battleship" notion, as does The Vickers' Independent. Seems to shout more of a political propeganda statement more than it does military effectiveness.
Certainly ,T-35 was developed in 1931 , it's based on experiense of WW1.
Already at the end of 30 yy multi-tower tanks proved their insolvency.
It is amazing, but Soviet multi-tower tanks have the German origin


During March 1930 for the rendering to technical assistance into the Soviet Union were invited the foreign specialists, in number of whom there was German engineer Edvard Grotte.
Under his management to the autumn of 1931 at the Leningrad plant "Bolshevik" was developed and prepared the experimental medium tank TG. But this tank did not go into the series production. The works on TG were ended, and it was decided to refuse from further services of Grotte.
But even during March 1931. Grotte proposed OF RKKA two versions of 1000-ton monsters with the installation of armament in three or six towers.
In the towers were established two 304- mm of instrument, four 152 and 76- mm and two 45- mm of gun. Tank crew consisted of forty people. The armor protection of the frontal part of the housing and tower reached 300 mm, were onboard - 250 mm, roof and bottom - 60-100 mm. on the machine it was intended to establish several engines with a total power of 24000 hp. which had to ensure the speed of motion to 60 km/h. Transmission of tank - hydromechanical with the electrical system for control. In the undercarriage was provided for primineniye of hydraulic suspension and triple caterpillars. It was acknowledged with the examination of the preliminary design of machine, that the construction of tank will be extremely bulky and complex for the mastery in proivodstve

http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/tg/tg2.html

To me, it always seemed mysterious the thrust of German engineers to the super- and mega- weapon

1000ydstare
08-26-2006, 10:20 AM
The idea of multiple turrets was, in age where many turrets were traversed by hand power, an attempt to enable tanks to engage multiple targets. Even modern tanks often have independant cuppolas for the machine guns.

See the M3 General Grant.

http://www.sztab.com/tapety/General-Grant-M3%20104836,1.jpg

It had a "traditional" tank turret on the top, and an extra gun on it's front right wing.

Some had a third turret on top of the "traditional" turret, fitted with a MG for use against soft targets and aircraft (?!).

Chevan
08-28-2006, 02:32 AM
The idea of multiple turrets was, in age where many turrets were traversed by hand power, an attempt to enable tanks to engage multiple targets. Even modern tanks often have independant cuppolas for the machine guns.

See the M3 General Grant.

http://www.sztab.com/tapety/General-Grant-M3%20104836,1.jpg

It had a "traditional" tank turret on the top, and an extra gun on it's front right wing.

Some had a third turret on top of the "traditional" turret, fitted with a MG for use against soft targets and aircraft (?!).
M3 General Grant proved its weakness even aginst german T3/4. This generation of multi-tower multi-guns tank die till ww2 in german and soviet tank's industry.

Anti
09-17-2006, 06:10 PM
"The idea of multiple turrets was, in age where many turrets were traversed by hand power, an attempt to enable tanks to engage multiple targets. Even modern tanks often have independant cuppolas for the machine guns."

Not just to engage multiple targets, but mostly to engage targets different in nature. Early war tanks were either equipped with a relative large caliber-short barreled gun for HE rounds or with small-caliber-large barreled guns for AP purposes. This is due to the fact that the High Explosive rounds require a great explosive charge rather than shell velocity like the Armor Piercing rounds. The turret on top of the M3 is fitted with an AP-gun whereas the turret on the side is fitted with the HE-gun.

Later on in the war guns were created that could fire AP rounds as well as HE rounds. A nice example of that is the change of the Pzkfw IV from the short HE barrel to the longer HE/AP barrel.

Nickdfresh
09-19-2006, 12:27 AM
The idea of multiple turrets was, in age where many turrets were traversed by hand power, an attempt to enable tanks to engage multiple targets. Even modern tanks often have independant cuppolas for the machine guns.

See the M3 General Grant.

http://www.sztab.com/tapety/General-Grant-M3%20104836,1.jpg

It had a "traditional" tank turret on the top, and an extra gun on it's front right wing.

Some had a third turret on top of the "traditional" turret, fitted with a MG for use against soft targets and aircraft (?!).

I'm not sure that's true in the case of the Grant, It was only a "stop-gap" tank between the feeble training and light tanks that the underfunded US Army had previously fielded and what became the M-4 Sherman. The Pentagon had not yet developed a turret that could hold a bigger 75mm gun, so they settled for it in the hull, with the standard pre-War Army 37mm anti-tank gun in an already proven turret design.


M3 General Grant proved its weakness even aginst german T3/4. This generation of multi-tower multi-guns tank die till ww2 in german and soviet tank's industry.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. But yes the U.S. lagged behind in tank design, and we knew it. But actually, the British Army had some good success with the Grant in the early part of the Desert War when first introduced, they were an improvement over anything they had previously, and the hull mounted gun's drawbacks could be tactically compensated for somewhat. The Germans also used their hull mounted guns to good effect (mainly defensively) in their Jagdpanzers, so the concept is not without merit.

In fact, the U.S. Army rejected Walter Christie's suspension system, a system that the T-34 largely incorporated.

Anti
09-20-2006, 01:42 AM
The Germans also used their hull mounted guns to good effect (mainly defensively) in their Jagdpanzers, so the concept is not without merit.

The succes of the hull mounted gun is proven, but the Jagdpanzers (as well as the Sturmgeschutze) had a much lower profile (as did some post-war Swedish tanks with hull mounted guns; the Stridvagn 103 for instance).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/S-tank.jpg

However, to fire at anything but tanks, the Grant had to expose itself tremendously which rendered it quite vulnerable. But that the tank design did work, is proven by the fact that the chassis and the track system itself is mostly used in the Sherman.

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-03-2007, 08:32 PM
This is the T35 topic! The weirdest tank of the war! (In my opinion!)

Thoughts? Opinions? Please post! =D

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/kepek/tanks/pics/t-35_2.jpg

http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/archive/Abandoned%20T35.jpg

http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/archive/Abandoned%20T35%20-%202.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-03-2007, 08:40 PM
The T-35 was a Soviet multi-turreted heavy tank of the interwar period and early Second World War that saw limited production and service with the Red Army. It was the only five-turreted heavy tank in the world to reach production but proved to be slow and mechanically unreliable. Most of the T-35 tanks still operational at the time of Operation Barbarossa were lost due to mechanical failure rather than enemy action.

Outwardly it was large but internally the spaces were cramped with the fighting compartments separated from each other. Some of the turrets obscured the entrance hatches.


The T-35 was developed by the OKMO design bureau of the Bolshevik Factory, which began work on a heavy tank in 1930. Two teams developed separate designs. The team headed by German engineer Grotte worked on the 100-ton four-turreted TG-5 tank, armed with a 107 mm naval gun, using pneumatic servo-controls and pneumatic suspension. This project was later cancelled.

The concept of large, multi-turreted breakthrough tanks was favored by several European Armies in the 1920s and 1930s. Designs existed in Britain, France, and Germany for such vehicles. The second OKMO team, headed by N. Tsiets, worked on a tank inspired by the British Vickers A1E1 Independent.

By July 1932, a prototype of a 35 ton tank with a 76.2 mm tank gun was completed. The first prototype was further enhanced with four smaller turrets, two with 37 mm guns and two with machineguns. This first prototype had severe defects in its transmission and was considered too complex and expensive for mass production. Therefore work on it was stopped and a new simpler prototype was built.

This new prototype received a new engine, new gearbox and improved transmission. The decision was also made to standardise the turrets used on the T-35 with those used on the T-28, a triple-turretted medium tank. The small machinegun turrets were identical on the two tanks. The large main turret housing the 76.2 mm gun was nearly identical, but those used on the T-28 had an additional, rear-firing machinegun.

On August 11, 1933, the T-35 was accepted for production. Engineering was shifted to the Kharkov Locomotive Factory, and two batches of ten vehicles were completed.

The experiences gained with the two prototypes were used for the main production T-35 Model 1935, which was again improved from the second prototype, with a longer chassis, improved hull and 45 mm guns in place of the 37mms. It started production in 1935, and about 35 were built by 1938. In general, throughout its production run small improvements were made to the individual tanks. Production models had turrets similar to the ones on the BT-5, but without the rear overhang. Some models had flamethrowers instead of one of the 45 mm guns. The final batch was a run of six T-35 model 1938s, which had new turrets with sloped armor all around, as well as modified side skirts and new idler wheels.

Western and Russian historians disagree about the inspiration for the T-35's design. The former argue it was copied from the British Vickers A1E1 Independent tank, but this is rejected by many Russian specialists. It is impossible to know the truth for certain, but there is strong evidence to support Western claims, not least failed Soviet attempts to purchase the A1E1. At the same time, the influence of German engineers developing similar designs in the late 1920s at their Kama base in the Soviet Union cannot be discounted. What is clear is that borrowing military technology and ideas from other nations was common to the majority of the armed forces in the inter-war years. The Red Army, with its purchase of the British Vickers Carden Loyd Tankette, Vickers E-Light and Cruiser Mk II Medium tanks, and the American Christie suspension, was clearly one of the leading exponents of this practice.

Due to its high cost, the production run of the T-35 ended at just sixty-one tanks.


The T-35 served with the 5th Separate Heavy Tank Brigade in Moscow, primarily for parade duties, from 1935 until 1940. In June of 1940, the question was raised whether to withdraw the T-35s from frontline service, with the option to either convert them to heavy self propelled artillery, or to assign them to the various military academies. The choice was made to use them up in combat instead and the surviving vehicles were collected together into the 67th and 68th Tank Regiments of the 34th Tank Division, which served with the 8th Mechanized Corps in the Kiev Special Military District.

During Operation Barbarossa, ninety percent of the T-35s lost by the 67th and 68th Tank Regiments were lost not to enemy action but through either mechanical failure or because they were abandoned and destroyed by their crews. The most common causes of breakdown were transmission-related. The last recorded action of the T-35 took place during the early stages of the battle of Moscow. Four machines were used in training facilities in Soviet rear. One of them is now available for spectators in Kubinka Tank Museum near Moscow.

The T-35 is sometimes cited as having participated in the Winter War against Finland, but according to Soviet sources it did not. In fact, a prototype (multi-turreted) SMK tank had been sent to the front for testing. This tank was disabled by a Finnish land mine and all attempts to recover the 55-ton behemoth failed. Finnish photographs of the previously unknown tank were mistakenly designated T-35C by German intelligence.

____________


T-35-1 - Prototype
T-35-2 - Prototype
T-35A - Production model.
T-35B - New engine. Only the prototype produced.
SU-7 - Prototypes with a 254 mm gun, 305 mm howitzer, and 400 mm mortar. Weighed over 106 tons.

www.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-35

Strina-Croatia
03-04-2007, 02:27 AM
It was a total miss by the russians to even produce it it was to large and to litlle firepower to opose germans smaller but stronger german tanks

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 07:49 AM
Agreed! I wonder how many of them broke down... :D

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 07:52 AM
Here are some specifications...

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1858/t35qo6.th.gif (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t35qo6.gif)

Egorka
03-04-2007, 04:56 PM
Please find some pictures of T-35 on this page: http://www.weltkrieg.ru/armoured/T-35/

Panzerknacker
03-04-2007, 06:34 PM
Nice page Egorka ¡¡.

Topic merged with a early one.

The russian flirted ( as many other nations) with the multiturred tank concept in the 1930s, but also found that the armor was too muych spread to actually resist AT weapons. Also the coordination between guns was very dificult.

Other desings of soviet multiturrets were the SMK and the T-100, eventually the army chose the less complicated and heavily armored KV-1.

http://www.aviapress.com/book/fri/fri005_1.jpg


T-100.

http://www.aviapress.com/book/fri/fri005_3.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 07:40 PM
Hm...interesting...

Egorka
03-05-2007, 07:51 AM
More links with pictures of T-35: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/BeforeWWII/T35/

Here are pictures of the sister tank CMK: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/BeforeWWII/SMK/

And here T-100: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/BeforeWWII/T100/

Panzerknacker
03-05-2007, 06:43 PM
The Medium T-28:

http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t28/t28_11.jpg

T-28 tanks on their way to the front. The Winter War. January 1940


http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t28/t28_15.jpg

A pair of T-28 go into action in the late summer 1941. Both vehicles are fitted with P-40 anti-aircraft machine guns mounting on the roof.




http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t28/t28_4.jpg
The ex-Soviet T-28e. It was captured by the Finns in 1942.




http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/t28/t28_5.jpg

T-28 knocked out on the roadside during the fighting in Ukraine in July 1941.

The first 10 tanks were sent to the 2nd Independent Regiment of RGK of the Leningradsky military district. In fact, independent tank units of RGK were represented since 1924. The 2nd Independent Regiment was formed in 1929. Later, due to production of new T-28 tanks another four tank regiments of RGK were formed: in Smolensk, in Kiev, in Kharkov, and in Slutzk. Organization of these regiments was changed several times.

By the end of 1935, each regiment consisted of three battalions of 30 tanks (T-28 and T-35) per battalion. In December 1935 these regiments were collected into independent heavy tank brigades. In these brigades, tanks of different classes weren't mixed with each other. In other words, a brigade might have T-28's or T-35's but not both types at the same time.

A heavy tank brigade of T-28's consisted of a three common tank battalions, a training battalion, supply battalion and some other units.

This organization was created on 12 December 1935 by the order of Minister of Defense. However on 21 May 1936 all these brigades were assigned to the RGK. In 1939 there were four heavy tank brigades: the 4th, 5th 10th, and 20th tank brigades. In a deviation from the policy of matching tank types to units, the 5th tank brigade had both T-28 and T-35.
The 4th and 10th tank brigades were the first tank brigades which took part in military conflict. In September 1939 they took part in the occupation of Bessarabia (West Ukraine). After analysis of the first deployment of these brigades, ABTU ordered the reorganization of all tank brigades: now they were to consist of three tank battalions of 156 tanks per battalion (117 T-28 and 39 BT). There were also future plans to replace them with the KV-1.
On 30 November 1939 the Russo-Finnish war began (also known as the Winter War). The 10th and 20th tank brigades took part in this war. When the war ended, the 20th Brigade (commander - kombrig Borzilov) was awarded with the Red Banner Order.
During the Winter War, T-28 tanks were used first for direct gunfire on embrasures of a Finnish pillboxes. However the standard 30 mm armor couldn't protect the tanks from Finnish AT-guns. That's why Soviet losses of T-28's were so high. Immediately after those battles, the T-28's were equipped with additional armor.
During the Winter War a couple of T-28 tanks were captured by the Finns. In 1941 they've captured another five vehicles. Those ex-Soviet tanks served up to the end of the war in the one Finnish tank brigade. In 1944 one of those vehicles was modified (all turrets removed) and used as an armored evacuation vehicle up to 1951.

There are rumors, that in 1955 two tanks were sold to Turkey. However, not one archival document confirm that.

In March 1940, the Red Army started its new reorganization and formed several mechanized corps. Each mechanized corps consisted of two tank divisions and one motorised regiment. In that time all tank brigades were disbanded and their tanks were added to the new tank divisions. For example, on 22 June 1941, the 8th Tank Division (4th Mechanized Corps) had 75 T-28 tanks, another 5 vehicles were in 10th Tank Division (15th Mechanized Corps). Both corps were attached to the Kiev military district.
On 15 July 1941, the 16th Mechanized Corps received an order from the commander of South-West Front to make a strike on Zhitomir. The 29th Tank Regiment (15th Tank Division) took part in this battle. During a counter-attack at Semenovka (a village near Berdichev) one platoon of T-28's under the command of 1st Lieutenant Vasiliy Sumtzov destroyed three German tanks, two AT-guns, one mortar, 7 trucks and about 100 German soldiers.


The fate of T-28 tanks was the same as for all other Soviet tanks - most them were lost in first two months of war. Some of the surviving T-28's served up to 1943 on the Leningradskiy Front and during the Moscow counter-offensive (1941).
In the summer of 1941 the design of the T-28 became obsolete due to the drawbacks of multi-turret vehicles. German Pz-III and Pz-IV had an equal armor protection but were much more maneuverable, but the T-28 was better armed than any German tank in 1941 and could hit any German tank from long distances.
Experimental tanks had mine-clearing equipment TM-35 or equipment for crossing rivers under water T-28PKh.


http://www.battlefield.ru

Panzerknacker
05-12-2007, 08:45 PM
Only one turret left in this destroyed T-35.

tankgeezer
05-13-2007, 08:48 AM
M3 General Grant proved its weakness even aginst german T3/4. This generation of multi-tower multi-guns tank die till ww2 in german and soviet tank's industry.

Just a quick note, the larger gun in the M-3 is mounted in what is called a "Sponson" a term used in the early days of iron Battleships, when naval guns were mounted in the sides of ship's hulls.

Uyraell
02-16-2009, 11:57 AM
The idea of multiple turrets was, in age where many turrets were traversed by hand power, an attempt to enable tanks to engage multiple targets. Even modern tanks often have independant cuppolas for the machine guns.

See the M3 General Grant.

http://www.sztab.com/tapety/General-Grant-M3%20104836,1.jpg

It had a "traditional" tank turret on the top, and an extra gun on it's front right wing.

Some had a third turret on top of the "traditional" turret, fitted with a MG for use against soft targets and aircraft (?!).

Not exactly, the .30 Browning in the commander's cupola was only capable of a maximum elevation of 47 deg, as I recall, and even that is obtained by dropping the pintel locking pins clear of the gunmount, otherwise the elevation was limited to between 28 and 35 deg, with depression being -8 deg.

Given the comparatively low elevation, despite the fact that tank crews were told they could engage attacking aircraft with the weapon, in reality most knew doing so was a "long-shot" at best, especially with the cupola being traversed in hand, and whoever was occupying it having to elevate, aim, lead the target, fire and often load as well since there was room for one man only.

If used in action at all (and rare recorded examples do exist) the cupola MG, like the fixed bow MGs, were used to engage infantry.

Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-16-2009, 04:42 PM
Short vid of a T-35 captured in belarus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkfSPTgtpdA

Uyraell
02-17-2009, 05:54 AM
It's look like british 5-towers tank A.I.E.I «Independent» (1929). Has anybody photo of this monster?

Ask, and you shall receive :)
It is reasonably plain the vehicles are related in external features at least, if not entirely in design terms, though it appears the Russian T35, vehicle is at least better armed, for the same or slightly more armour thickness.

Regards, Uyraell.

(Further article below.)
[URL="http://http://images.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://images7.fotki.com/v141/photos/1/133612/1712096/A1E1-vi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1322859/posts&usg=__c2D2YuzSMBANwL_cMe4JVn-aCZc=&h=177&w=500&sz=24&hl=en&start=1&sig2=rZmPEHNOH1kgx19f-t5_rA&tbnid=EINY4GMnh9OtlM:&tbnh=46&tbnw=130&ei=7ZGaSe-3E5K9kAXauJmaCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBritish%2BA1E1%2B%2522Independent%252 2%2BTank,%2B1929%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff% 26sa%3DG"][Url/]

Panzerknacker
02-21-2009, 05:00 PM
Nice pictures, seems the british "landship" was the grandfather of all this multiturret, semi-maniac tanks.

Carl Schwamberger
02-21-2009, 05:59 PM
if you look at this site

http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1202&Itemid=99

You will see the French first approached the idea with the FCM 21 in the 1920s. Multigunned but not a true multi turreted tank. It appears to be a grandfather of the later 'B' tanks. In the 1930s the French created many prototypes of multi turreted tanks. My favorite is the monster with the 90mm high velocity gun.

Homerr
03-01-2009, 03:56 PM
Pictures of each T-35 tank:

http://grayknight.narod.ru/T-35/T-35.htm