U.S Pistols and Revolvers in WW2.

[Panzerknacker]

S&W 38/200, this was a british request gun, the cartrigde was the 38 S&W(short variant not the special) with a 200 grain bullet...result, a reaaally slow muzzle velocity.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6465/38ub1vu1.jpg




Encyclopedya of weapons of ww2.

[Panzerknacker]

Well, this one needs no introduction. :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa5b0hl1GlU

[jacobtowne]

Good shooting in that film clip. Actually, the 200-grain bullet was never used during the war. It was an unpatched lead bullet, and concern over possible objections to this by enemy combatants led to the adoption in 1938 of the Mk. 2 round with a 178-grain jacketed bullet.

Here are two Smith & Wesson Military & Police martial "Victory" revolvers from my collection. Above is a U.S. cal. .38 Special shipped to the Navy in 1943. Below is a .38-200 Lend-Lease New Zealand issue shipped 1942. The holster is dated 1944.

The second photo is of S&W armed New Zealand machine gunners in the Monte Cassino Sector, 1944. (Imperial War Museum) in Charles Pate, U.S. Handguns of WWII: The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers.

JT

[Panzerknacker]

Nice pictures there.



Actually, the 200-grain bullet was never used during the war



What bullet weigth it had then ?

[jacobtowne]

178-grain jacketed, the Mk. 2.

JT

[Panzerknacker]

Thanks.

Colt M1917 .45 .

[George Eller]

-

Thanks Panzerknacker for the article on the Smith & Wesson Model 1917 Revolver.

I copied it below and spliced two pictures under it of my S&W Model 1955 which uses the same frame as the Model 1917, but with 6.5 inch barrel and adjustable target sights.
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7233/colt191704sy5.jpg
(12 Feb 2007)
Above are two pictures of my S&W Model 1955 which uses the same frame as the Model 1917, but with 6.5 inch barrel and adjustable target sights. I installed Model 1917 walnut grips to replace the original oversized grips. Also shown are the half-moon clips with .45 ACP rounds.

-

Colt Model 1917 Revolver
Guns & Ammo: Surplus Firearms, 2005, pp 103-105
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5606/colt191701ku6.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/408/colt191702pj5.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5085/colt191703cp8.jpg

My dad used to have one of these back in the 1960's and 70's.

-

[Panzerknacker]

The looking of this gun a a heavy duty one and according to james it seems to suit well :rolleyes: . I see that you have a large Guns & Ammo collection, do you have the Garry james test of the .45 Luger maybe ?

[jacobtowne]

Gentlemen:
Thanks for the articles on the M1917 revolvers. I have always found the story of this alternate standard sidearm fascinating. They were also used during WWII, mainly by military police.

I must disagree with one statement in the article posted by Panzerknacker, which says that the clips were designed to "keep the cartridges from slipping too far into the revolver chambers." These rimless cartridges headspace on the case mouth, against a shoulder in the chamber. The clips, invented by Joseph Wesson, only give purchase to the extractor. Without the clips, the empty cases must be pushed out of the chambers individually from the front of the chamber.

Here's a photo of my M1917 Colt, shipped October, 1918.

JT

[Man of Stoat]

One important difference between the colt and the Smith & Wesson model 1917 revolvers, aside from the cylinders rotating in opposite directions, was that the Smith & Wesson could be used without the clips, the Colts not. This is because the Smith & Wesson's were properly chambered, and allowing the cartridge to headspace on the case mouth, whereas the Colts were not and the cartridges would drop too far into the chambers. Of course, ejection without the clips requires either very clean chambers allowing you to pick the empties out, or a pencil or similar.

In another month, in theory, I shall be receiving my 45 ACP model 625.

Interestingly, Smith and Wesson are producing the M1917 again, although they don't quote a price.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/150188_large.jpg

Pretty pretty pretty! I want one! It would go nicely alongside the excellent Colt M1873 replica...

[jacobtowne]

One important difference between the colt and the Smith & Wesson model 1917 revolvers, aside from the cylinders rotating in opposite directions, was that the Smith & Wesson could be used without the clips, the Colts not. This is because the Smith & Wesson's were properly chambered, and allowing the cartridge to headspace on the case mouth, whereas the Colts were not and the cartridges would drop too far into the chambers.

Only the first 30,000 Colts had chambers bored straight through, with no shoulders. According to Pate, it is likely that most of these cylinders were replaced with counterbored cylinders. The remaining 120,000 revolvers, of which mine is an example, were made with shoulders in the chambers.

Another difference is the shrouded ejector rod on the S&W. Also, the Colt has a trigger pull from hell when fired double action ( I shoot mine single action), not at all as smooth and light as the S&W.

One additional difference is in serial numbering. The S&W M1917, which is a .44 Hand Ejector, had its own serial range. The Colts are in the New Service range, so had two numbers, the factory number, and the service number beginning with 1 stamped on the butt. This number was assigned by Army Ordnance.

Interesting that you are buying a S&W M625. I bought myself one as a Christmas present to help reduce the temptation to shoot my U.S. .45s, the oldest of which was made in November, 1917. That's the Model of 1911 one in my avatar, by the way.

Here's a photo of the new toy.

JT

[jacobtowne]

And here's a photo of two MPs in New Guinea, late 1942. The men are carrying what appear to Colts, from the curvature of the grips, in M1909 Pattern butt-forward holsters.

JT

[George Eller]

-

Panzerknacker, Man of Stoat, jacobtowne, thanks for the interesting pics and info guys.

Panzerknacker, I will dig through my old issues of Guns&Ammo for the .45 cal Luger.

Man of Stoat, congratulations on the S&W 625 - nice piece. Love the new S&W M1917 - indeed a beautiful, classic firearm.
I may buy one myself. :)

-

[Panzerknacker]

Panzerknacker, I will dig through my old issues of Guns&Ammo for the .45 cal Luger.


I really preciated that ;)

Now a little off topic the argentine model .45


http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/827/16ez0.jpg



http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Modelo1927.htm

[GermanSoldier]

Here is a American SIG P210
http://i9.tinypic.com/30vccja.jpg
Here is a different type of Colt pistol Revolver
http://i18.tinypic.com/35hn2fp.jpg
Cavalry Model Pistol from World War2
http://i5.tinypic.com/2e22o8p.jpg
Hope You Enjoy Them!

[George Eller]

-

An article by Garry James from Guns&Ammo November 1992 (Volume 36, No. 11), pp 62-65.
Mitchell Arms (American-made in Houston, Texas) stainless steel clone of Luger P-08 pistols originally produced for the American market (American Eagle Lugers). Sorry Panzerknacker, but could not find a Garry James article on the .45 cal model - just the 9mm version.

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/6409/usluger01sk9.jpg

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4071/usluger02ow1.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2354/usluger03mt9.jpg

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/5204/usluger04pl5.jpg

SEE ALSO:

Mitchell's Mausers
http://www.mauser.org/

.45 Caliber Lugers
http://www.lugerforum.com/45Luger.html

.45 Luger Gallery
http://gmund.rennlist.com/luger/index.html

Another .45 Caliber Luger Mystery
http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/CaptainMonty45

Lugerforum Gallery
http://gallery.lugerforum.com/lugergallery/

Luger pistol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol

-

[Panzerknacker]

Preciated.

For 700 $ that is a bargain pistol

[George Eller]

Preciated.

For 700 $ that is a bargain pistol
-

Yes, $700 seems pretty modest compared to some of the original Lugers they have listed at Mitchell's Mausers - prices ranging between $4,500 to $6,500. That's quite a bit beyond my budget.
http://www.mauser.org/autopistols/hist_p-08%20luger/index.htm

Although I would imagine that a Mitchell Arms Luger would probably fetch more in today's money than in 1992.

-

[Panzerknacker]

Although I would imagine that a Mitchell Arms Luger would probably fetch more in today's money than in 1992

That little thing call inflation, I now about it. :neutral:


Liberator pistol, the most imprecise of all.

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/8680/liberatornj6.jpg

[jacobtowne]

Good story. The Liberator is a peculiar chapter in American sidearms. Here's a copy of the illustrated instructions that came with them. Current price for one of these things is very high.

JT

[Panzerknacker]

You cant miss with that instruction.

Some Liberator were attached with a silencer who (teorically) made it a better assasins weapon, the bullet however having no spining stabilization movement tumbling and destroyed several silencers. The idea was dropped.

[jacobtowne]

There's a brief article about the Liberator in the latest American Rifleman magazine (March, 2007). In 20% condition, they are worth more than $2,000.

The unit cost for the pistol alone was $1.73, and a little over $2 for the kit which included a dowel to extract cases. It took longer to load the pistol than to manufacture it.

It was code-named Model FP-45, "Flare Projector."

JT

[Panzerknacker]

2000 $ ? :shock:

It seems that just few actually survive ww2.

[Panzerknacker]

Slenced .22 semiauto for special forces.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9174/92725041np9.jpg


http://i16.tinypic.com/66y90u9.jpg


http://i17.tinypic.com/4l8g9p5.jpg


http://i13.tinypic.com/4tf9o54.jpg

[tankgeezer]

I have always enjoyed using the highstandard pistols we had in the U.S. Army, most every company had a few of them for target practice. One post in Ansbach Germany had an indoor range left from the old days, and it was a great place to do some shooting. We didnt have the integral suppressor pistols, Those were for "special occasions" Ruger makes a fine .22lr with suppressor, based on the mk 1 pistol. Of course, lots of these are in hands both honorable and profane, even a scoundrel prefers a quality firearm. My next favorite is the good old Colt 1911-a1 .45 acp. I have one of them, and never tire of shooting it, (but my wallet does get tired of paying for ammo) and finally, the American Derringer, a 2 shot pistol from Waco Texas. They can be ordered in nearly any caliber one wishes, even .410 shot shell, or .45 -70 rifle one shot only with those tho,, Ha! and enjoy Ms. Derringer,,,,

[tankgeezer]

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Argentina
Posts: 2,604 U.S Pistols and Revolvers in WW2.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S&W 38/200, this was a british request gun, the cartrigde was the 38 S&W(short variant not the special) with a 200 grain bullet...result, a reaaally slow muzzle velocity soe additional information on Panzer knacker's post, This cartridge was indeed popular with the military, and yes it isnt the .38 long, or the later .38 spl. which had a bullet diameter of .357inches. so the case diameter was also smaller. the .38 S&W is actually .380" dia. so the case was too wide to fit in the chamber of the long or spl. and if one loades the .38 short into the S&W chamber the case would split down the side when fired. (personal experience. )

[Cuts]

You cant miss with that instruction.

Some Liberator were attached with a silencer who (teorically) made it a better assasins weapon, the bullet however having no spining stabilization movement tumbling and destroyed several silencers. The idea was dropped.

I've never seen a Liberator with a moderator, nor heard of one. Do you have a link for this ?

[Panzerknacker]

Those were for "special occasions" Ruger makes a fine .22lr with suppressor, based on the mk 1 pistol. Of course, lots of these are in hands both honorable and profane, even a scoundrel prefers a quality firearm. My next favorite is the good old Colt 1911-a1 .45 acp. I have one of them, and never tire of shooting it, (but my wallet does get tired of paying for ammo) and finally, the American Derringer, a 2 shot pistol from Waco Texas. They can be ordered in nearly any caliber one wishes, even .410 shot shell, or .45 -70 rifle one shot only with those tho,, Ha! and enjoy Ms. Derringer.

Those are large calibre weapons. :D

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6866/ladydhu5.jpg

I've never seen a Liberator with a moderator, nor heard of one. Do you have a link for this ?

Ill search some for you.

[tankgeezer]

That, they are, Panzerknacker,, well engineered projectiles are important. and just a side note about the U.S. taste in pistols, the 3 most popular collectible military pistols have traditionally been the P-08 Luger, The P-38, and the Mauser pistol model 1896, though the Broomhandle was scarce, and expensive to aquire until the military import ban was lifted by Ronald Reagan, then they became affordable by the average American. (Its my personal favorite among German pistols. ) I also enjoyed the 1910/21 Bergman Bayard pistol, I did own one for awhile, and it fired a 9mm long (largo) cartridge, from a removable magazine, and looked very similar to the Broomhandle.

[Panzerknacker]

When I wrote "large calibre" I wasnt meaning the derringes TG :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Anyway in here you got more info about the Bergmann, it was adopted by the spanish army in 1910

http://mundosgm.com/smf/index.php?topic=671.0

[tankgeezer]

When I wrote "large calibre" I wasnt meaning the derringes TG :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Anyway in here you got more info about the Bergmann, it was adopted by the spanish army in 1910

http://mundosgm.com/smf/index.php?topic=671.0

Oh, fear not panzerknacker, I got the joke,,, i will enjoy reading more about the Bergman too. Talk to you later, - Raspenau -

[Gutkowski]

Here is a different type of Colt pistol Revolver
http://i18.tinypic.com/35hn2fp.jpg
Cavalry Model Pistol from World War2
Hope You Enjoy Them!

Colt pistol Revolver
Its either one or the other not both
Here is the difference between revolver

Both are handguns. A revolver contains a revolving cylinder in which bullets are loaded. Revolvers usually hold six shots. The ATF defines a pistol as any handgun that does not contain its ammunition in a revolving cylinder. Most pistols have a removable magazine into which bullets are loaded. The magazine is then inserted into the hollow handgrip of the gun.
And here is a pistol my 1911a1 Auto Ordnance ,
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/IMG_0837.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/IMG_0838.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/IMG_0840.jpg
Now thats a Pistol

[Gutkowski]

And A few others that I have
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/DSCF0708.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/DSCF0117.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/DSCF1209.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/DSCF1211.jpg

[tankgeezer]

Now yer cookin' some very nice examples to be sure. For those not familiar with the Colt old service revolver, is that it was a .45 caliber, but used the same cartridge as the 1911, and 11-A1 pistols, a cartridge made for semi-automatic weapons, and sub-machineguns that had no rim. In order for the .45 acp cartridge to operate in this revolver, there needed to be something to hold proper headspace in the chamber, so a metal clip called a "half-moon clip" was used to hold 3 rounds of ammo in the cylinder so the firing pin could strike the primer. 2 of these clips were used to fully load the old service. and were discarded with the spent cases. A model of the Webley revolver was made in this way as well, ans so many were in civilian hands that commercial ammunition MFG's produced a special cartridge for them, the .45 auto-rim. just adding a protruding rim to the regular a.c.p. design.

[Panzerknacker]

Oh, fear not panzerknacker, I got the joke


I am glad you do. :rolleyes:


http://www.securityarms.com/cgi-local/protect.pl?File=3100/3100pics/3140.jpg

[Cuts]

I also enjoyed the 1910/21 Bergman Bayard pistol, I did own one for awhile, and it fired a 9mm long (largo) cartridge, from a removable magazine, and looked very similar to the Broomhandle.

Did you use Spanish or other factory ammo in the Bergmann-Bayard ?

I've got a working load for my B-B but am always happy to improve it, so if you used reloads could you PM me your data please ?

[tankgeezer]

Did you use Spanish or other factory ammo in the Bergmann-Bayard ?

I've got a working load for my B-B but am always happy to improve it, so if you used reloads could you PM me your data please ?

That was awhile back,, near 20 years, but I do remember the ammo was surplus military stuff I sold from my gun shop. It must have been Spanish or S.American, it was labeled 9m.m. Largo. but that is all I remember about it. I wish I could be of greater help on this. - Raspenau -

[Cuts]

That was awhile back,, near 20 years, but I do remember the ammo was surplus military stuff I sold from my gun shop. It must have been Spanish or S.American, it was labeled 9m.m. Largo. but that is all I remember about it. I wish I could be of greater help on this. - Raspenau -

No problem, thanks for responding anyway.

[Cuts]

I've never seen a Liberator with a moderator, nor heard of one. Do you have a link for this ?
Ill search some for you.

It's been about two weeks, had any luck ?

[Panzerknacker]

Sorry but no, I think I read that in:

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/gunwriters.html


But if was there I cant found it.

[Cuts]

Sorry but no, I think I read that in:

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/gunwriters.html


But if was there I cant found it.


You will find no reliable or confirmed reference to moderator equipped Liberators.

If someone had posted that sort of gen on the internet, they were working purely from their experience of computer games, much as IRONMAN used to.

Just shows the danger of posting guesswork.

[Paul Keats]

I own a Colt Woodsman which clearly has "NOT ENGLISH MADE" stamped on the side of the frame. I am told this was probably sent to England prior to our entry in December, 1941.

[Panzerknacker]

"NOT ENGLISH MADE"

Why not just made in USA :D

[Sgt.Malarky]

The Americans chose the 45. for their pistol because it was much more powerful than the 8mm luger they were demonstrated.

[jacobtowne]

Actually, General Crozier of Army Ordnance stipulated .45 caliber for a new sidearm because of the poor performance of the .38 Colt cartridge during the Moro insurrection in the Philippine Islands.
JT

[Panzerknacker]

Actually, General Crozier of Army Ordnance stipulated .45 caliber for a new sidearm because of the poor performance of the .38 Colt cartridge during the Moro insurrection in the Philippine Islands.
JT


And the moros were in drugs so the .38 is commented as harmless in those guys.

Strange device, spent shell catcher for the M1911.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6061/1911conpantallauu6.jpg

[tankgeezer]

Actually, General Crozier of Army Ordnance stipulated .45 caliber for a new sidearm because of the poor performance of the .38 Colt cartridge during the Moro insurrection in the Philippine Islands.
JTI agree, the Moro uprising did bring about the adoption of the M-1911,with its .45 a.c.p. cartridge. It did an excellent job in downing even the most crazed, drugged, Kris wielding tribsman. - Raspenau -
Also agreed, that is a strange looking piece of hardware on the pistol, wonder why it was so important to keep the spent cases from falling to the ground ?

[Panzerknacker]

I think It was used by the U.S army air corps in WW1, let say the pistol was a air-to-air weapon, the catcher I guess must be for avoid any brass hitting the shooter face.

[tankgeezer]

I think It was used by the U.S army air corps in WW1, let say the pistol was a air-to-air weapon, the catcher I guess must be for avoid any brass hitting the shooter face. That would probably be the only use for such a device, I suppose that flying caes would pose a threat when airborn, to the plane as much as to the person using the weapon. - Raspenau -

[Man of Stoat]

It is to stop spent cases falling into the cockpit and jamming the controls, nothing to do with cases hitting the pilot's face.

[Gutkowski]

It is to stop spent cases falling into the cockpit and jamming the controls, nothing to do with cases hitting the pilot's face.
Why in the world would a pilot want to be shooting his side arm from the cockpit in flight anyways ????

[Panzerknacker]

Well... because we are talking about early days in WW1, open cockpits, no Machine guns, you know.

[Gutkowski]

Well... why are talking about early days in WW!, open cockpits, no Machine guns, you know.
Roger that I got ya lol

[tankgeezer]

That must have been some tight flying, getting close enough to use a 1911 with one hand, and still fly the plane with the other.. courageous people.

[.50cal.forever]

Hello, that is a nice CZ-52 Gutkowski.

This is A semi-auto revolver made by Webley-Fosbery in July of 1900,
it fired the .455 Webley round. It weighs 3 pounds and is 11 inches long.

http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/WSWFAR.jpg