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Chevan
02-05-2007, 06:45 AM
Hi
Listering the Wiki i fount the intersting picture of Pablo Picasso: Massacre in Korea
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/63/Picasso_Massacre_in_Korea.jpg
Do somebody know was the real massacre for his picture?

Cheers.

Chevan
02-05-2007, 07:06 AM
That's i only found in Wiki:

Artist Pablo Picasso's painting Massacre in Korea (1951) depicted violence against civilians during the Korean War. By some accounts, killing of civilians by U.S. forces in Shinchun, Hwanghae Province was the motive of the painting.
Wha't was in Shinchun?

Chevan
02-05-2007, 07:32 AM
Well now i found something


http://www.iacenter.org/Koreafiles/ktc-report-nk.htm
....Shinchon
The civilian massacre by the U.S. military in Shinchon was particularly extreme in its cruelty. The U.S. set living fire people on fire; buried them alive; cut their ears and noses off; pulled out their eyeballs; skinned them alive; dragged them by their noses; burned their hair, breasts and sexual organs with heated iron; destroyed their five major organs with axes, picks, and shovels; tore their legs and arms apart; sawed through their bodies; drove nails through their heads and backs with their bodies hanging upside down on a tree; and let dogs tear them to pieces. The cruelty of such deeds is simply unimaginable. U.S. forces slaughtered 1,550 civilians in the Shinchon region over the course of three days beginning on October 17, 1950. During their temporary occupation of the region, they mercilessly massacred a total of 35,383 civilians, amounting to one fourth of the regional population.


Oh my god was it the true or not in this article?

Gen. Sandworm
02-05-2007, 08:18 AM
NORTH KOREAN PROPAGANDA!

Think this is a load of crap.............think this would have been outragous even to the South Koreans. Plus the manner is which it was done would be untypical of US soldiers. I could buy a mass shooting as opposed to these barbarian acts. US forces in Vietnam would have never gone this far. Maybe the occasional crazy but nothing like this.

Chevan
02-05-2007, 08:23 AM
Oh Gen no problems.
Let it be the propoganda. But question is still? What was in the Shinchon?
Do you know?
And why the "Nothern Korean" propoganda is based on US-site?

Cheers.

mike M.
02-05-2007, 10:03 AM
......

Gen. Sandworm
02-05-2007, 10:22 AM
Oh Gen no problems.
Let it be the propoganda. But question is still? What was in the Shinchon?
Do you know?
And why the "Nothern Korean" propoganda is based on US-site?

Cheers.

If you look at the main site http://iacenter.org/ you will see that it is
Information, Activism, and Resistance to U.S.
Militarism, War, and Corporate Greed,
Linking with Struggles Against Racism and Oppression
within the United States


So yet another protest group.......which im fine with....however im sure they are posting anything they can get there hands on. Classic "dont believe everything you read" and personally I dont believe crap that comes out of N. Korea unless its a missle. If these are true why dont they let some non-biased researchers in to look for evidence of these crimes. Even some of the most stubborn people will say admit to anything when their life is on the line.

Sorry if I seem pissy but I dont trust the protesters (of this nature) anymore than I trust the government. However posting random crap happens all the time from both sides. IMO youll prove this true the same time we find those WMD's in Iraq.

Gen. Sandworm
02-05-2007, 10:29 AM
And one more thing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

Brief list of countries involved in the Korean war........find it hard that no one else mentioned this massacre.

Chevan
02-05-2007, 01:05 PM
Chevan,
I think the BIG question is Do you think this is true? I think I know the answer to that question but I'm curious. Also check out the other link that's on that site you posted, it will give you an idea who this is coming from.
http://www.mumia2000.org/

Oh mike i've never said i belive this site.
Generally i/m agree with Gen and understand there are a lot of people who ready to write anything for the sensation without any confirmation.
I just have to ask WHY in WIKI this Pablo Picasso artwork mentioned as possible touching to the US army activity in Shinchon.
So i/m simply ask somedoby what was in Shinchon. I have just find this site , nothing more. So could somebody explain for me ( whithout claiming and blaiming) what had going on there?
BTW am i understand you right, you exclude any possibility of US army killing the civilians in N.Korea?

Cheers.

pdf27
02-05-2007, 01:37 PM
As I understand it, there were a number of cases of the US army shooting civilians during the Korean war. However, they tended to be limited in number and investigated rather than brushed under the carpet.

An example would be the No Gun Ri "incident" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri

One common thread though - nothing like the cruelty claimed in that report. However, Korean soldiers on both sides have been implicated in acts of extreme cruelty. There are a number of documented cases of US PoWs captured during the initial attack down towards Pusan being tied up with barbed wire and used for bayonet practice by North Korean troops and the like. It appears the reason for this is most likely the barbaric way the Koreans were treated by the Japanese in the previous 50 years, leaving the lowest level soldiers with no concept of what we in the west would consider civilized behaviour. The North Koreans did take and hold a number of allied PoWs, but their treatment didn't even resemble that proscribed by the Geneva convention. Treatment improved - a bit - under the Chinese, but was still pretty bad and a large number of PoWs died due to it.

Chevan
02-05-2007, 02:00 PM
If you look at the main site http://iacenter.org/ you will see that it is
Information, Activism, and Resistance to U.S.
Militarism, War, and Corporate Greed,
Linking with Struggles Against Racism and Oppression
within the United States


So yet another protest group.......which im fine with....however im sure they are posting anything they can get there hands on. Classic "dont believe everything you read" and personally I dont believe crap that comes out of N. Korea unless its a missle. If these are true why dont they let some non-biased researchers in to look for evidence of these crimes. Even some of the most stubborn people will say admit to anything when their life is on the line.

Yes Gen this is Group of crazy Activists.
And i am not hurry to believe them. But why you easy deny the scale of violence in the N.Korea in 1950-1953.
Sory to notice you but during this war perished about 1.5 millions of Korean civils.The intensivity of bombing the Korean cities by USAF was MUCH more then the Germany in the last period of WW2.
I don't say it was the US troops in Shinchon, but it COULD BE US-troops.
I am understand it was the common violence of both sides in Korea, but your point to deny any US participation is worry me. Sorry again.


Sorry if I seem pissy but I dont trust the protesters (of this nature) anymore than I trust the government. However posting random crap happens all the time from both sides. IMO youll prove this true the same time we find those WMD's in Iraq.

I have no wish to repit Iraq thread again. What's goin on? I just wish to learn what's happend in Shinchon in 1951?


........find it hard that no one else mentioned this massacre
So what Gen?
Could you to say that if it is not mentioned no more in Wiki it never was ?

Cheers.

Chevan
02-05-2007, 02:19 PM
As I understand it, there were a number of cases of the US army shooting civilians during the Korean war. However, they tended to be limited in number and investigated rather than brushed under the carpet.

An example would be the No Gun Ri "incident" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri

One common thread though - nothing like the cruelty claimed in that report. However, Korean soldiers on both sides have been implicated in acts of extreme cruelty. There are a number of documented cases of US PoWs captured during the initial attack down towards Pusan being tied up with barbed wire and used for bayonet practice by North Korean troops and the like. It appears the reason for this is most likely the barbaric way the Koreans were treated by the Japanese in the previous 50 years, leaving the lowest level soldiers with no concept of what we in the west would consider civilized behaviour. The North Koreans did take and hold a number of allied PoWs, but their treatment didn't even resemble that proscribed by the Geneva convention. Treatment improved - a bit - under the Chinese, but was still pretty bad and a large number of PoWs died due to it.

Thanks pdf you first who has give any info about.
Now i have read your link and now i understand more.

In 1999 The New York Times reported that in 1997, 30 South Korean survivors and relatives of victims filed a lawsuit that "described a three-day period of killing, saying that American planes had strafed hundreds of refugees who were fleeing from North Korean troops, leaving about 100 people dead. The survivors fled under the bridge, where they said they were pinned by American troops who shot and killed almost all the refugees." Their suit was rejected on a technicality
Now i understand the reason of power amti-american senses in South Korea.
Befor it was strange for me why in Seul there were a lot of anti-american demonstrants:According "official version" US protected them from N.Korea.But there were a lot of facts violence of US above the South Korean civils.
I don't wish to blame US troops in cruelty above the civilians, but in fact this violence really was.

Cheers.

pdf27
02-05-2007, 03:30 PM
Now i understand the reason of power amti-american senses in South Korea.
Befor it was strange for me why in Seul there were a lot of anti-american demonstrants:According "official version" US protected them from N.Korea.But there were a lot of facts violence of US above the South Korean civils.
I don't wish to blame US troops in cruelty above the civilians, but in fact this violence really was.
There is a whole lot more to it than that going on.
A series of military dictatorships ruled the place for years, with at least the tacit support of the US. It never feels good to know you are depending on someone else for your security, thus there is a national ego thing about getting the US out of the country. There have been a number of very poorly handled accidents in recent years (US military vehicles running over schoolchildren and the like - no question but that they were accidents, but the way the press was handled stirred things up badly). And yes, during the war, quite apart from the (alleged) massacres the civilian population suffered very badly from both sides. The communists killed anyone they thought might be a "class enemy" and conscripted many of the rest at gunpoint. The UN (aka US) forces were quite happy to flatten towns, villages and even cities rather than have to take them the difficult, expensive way with house to house fighting.
On the other hand, South Korea is hardly without those Lenin knew as "useful idiots" who think that but for the US Korea would be reunited in "peace, brotherhood and democracy", and that the North Koreans are misunderstood. They also want the US to leave, but for their own reasons. Finally, there are those who hate the US simply for what it is, rather than what it has done.

Something of a witches' brew there really...

Man of Stoat
02-05-2007, 04:14 PM
There were various massacres of POWs and civilians carried out by North Korean troops, e.g. hill 303, hill 312, Daejeon, and various other towns and cities.

The reference for the picture is probably Daejeon:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/Korean_War_Massacre.jpg

Gen. Sandworm
02-06-2007, 01:30 AM
Now i understand the reason of power amti-american senses in South Korea.


IMO.........the above has nothing to do with it. The majority of the protest come from people that werent even alive then. The problem is that the S. Korean's do want peace with the north and a slow reunifacation. But after 55 years the Americans are still there and most feel that they are not helping but hurting the process. Yet alot still want us there for protection. Let just say the north isnt really promoting peace.

Nickdfresh
02-06-2007, 09:31 PM
Well now i found something

Oh my god was it the true or not in this article?


Chevan, would you like to buy viagra and other drugs? Send me your email addy, six-hundred thousand rubles, and pictures of your girlfriend, and I'll let you in on a new economic opportunity in which you've won the Dutch lottery....

Chevan
02-07-2007, 12:51 AM
Chevan, would you like to buy viagra and other drugs? Send me your email addy, six-hundred thousand rubles, and pictures of your girlfriend, and I'll let you in on a new economic opportunity in which you've won the Dutch lottery....
It seems now i have to laugh ;) ?
Ha ha ha. Very funny Nick.

Chevan
02-07-2007, 01:51 AM
There is a whole lot more to it than that going on.
A series of military dictatorships ruled the place for years, with at least the tacit support of the US. It never feels good to know you are depending on someone else for your security, thus there is a national ego thing about getting the US out of the country. There have been a number of very poorly handled accidents in recent years (US military vehicles running over schoolchildren and the like - no question but that they were accidents, but the way the press was handled stirred things up badly). And yes, during the war, quite apart from the (alleged) massacres the civilian population suffered very badly from both sides. The communists killed anyone they thought might be a "class enemy" and conscripted many of the rest at gunpoint. The UN (aka US) forces were quite happy to flatten towns, villages and even cities rather than have to take them the difficult, expensive way with house to house fighting.
On the other hand, South Korea is hardly without those Lenin knew as "useful idiots" who think that but for the US Korea would be reunited in "peace, brotherhood and democracy", and that the North Koreans are misunderstood. They also want the US to leave, but for their own reasons. Finally, there are those who hate the US simply for what it is, rather than what it has done.

Something of a witches' brew there really...
Well this is most full explanation , thanks pdf.
I have to agree the korean anti-americanism has a deeper reasons.
I read the article where the social poll showed that if in 1996 the 89% of South koreans supported the presents US in Korea but in 2002 just 56% support this idea.
And what's interesting the mass liking for US had the mostly oldest generation, but the conteporary young people today has mostly irritating feeling of US troops.
The mass anti-americans demonstrations of which joined to 100 000 peoples in streets of South Korean cities has bacame the common political events.

Cheers.

Chevan
02-07-2007, 02:04 AM
BTW guys if we have begin the politic tells about Korean problems.
I wish to discuss the one question- what's could happend if US suddenly leave the Korea?
Will the N.Korean attack the South?
And could the South using its own troops effective reflect this treat?
Is the US presents in Korea has to hold Korea only ? Or it need to hold the "China's horse"?

Have any oppinions gentlemens?

Cheers.

Gen. Sandworm
02-07-2007, 04:24 AM
BTW guys if we have begin the politic tells about Korean problems.
I wish to discuss the one question- what's could happend if US suddenly leave the Korea?
Will the N.Korean attack the South?
And could the South using its own troops effective reflect this treat?
Is the US presents in Korea has to hold Korea only ? Or it need to hold the "China's horse"?

Have any oppinions gentlemens?

Cheers.

Technically the war isnt over. Just an armistice with the only agreement of status quo ante bellum. However no peace treaty was ever signed.

IMO I think it might help with the North South Peace process. However with the North's threating stances I seriously doubt that the US will pull out. WW2 gave a Japan a bad name and even worse when they sided with the US on issues concerning the Cold war. Japan would be forced to boost their military....which in many ways they are already doing. Would be silly from a military stance to pull out of S. Korea in the slight chance the North and South might get along. If it doesnt then you have a whole new shit storm and youve lost a strategic stance. 1950 all over again.

pdf27
02-07-2007, 06:34 AM
Technically the war isnt over. Just an armistice with the only agreement of status quo ante bellum. However no peace treaty was ever signed.
Ceasefire in place, rather than return to the prewar boundaries. But yes, but for the fact that no war was ever declared there has been no approximation to a peace treaty.
The US forces are mainly there as a confidence building measure and as a deterrent to the DPRK WMDs. In pure military terms the South is easily able to defend itself.

Chevan
02-07-2007, 06:57 AM
Well Gen this is the point thanks.

Would be silly from a military stance to pull out of S. Korea in the slight chance the North and South might get along. If it doesnt then you have a whole new shit storm and youve lost a strategic stance. 1950 all over again.
But i think you will agree the world has changed since 1950. I don't think the N/Korea dictator Kim so stupid to begin the new war. Niether USSR not China will not supported him as in 1950. Therefore i think he will force to find the compromise, perhaps i agree with you it US leave the Korea it could to help the peace process ( or may be even joining the both Koreas in perspective).
Another matter the US interests in South Asia. As it has mentioned the US "hold" the Japane and don't let the China to forget who is "master of home". From this point i can agree the US troops played the withstand role in region. ( althout IMO this point is based or race prejudises that "US need to rule and control this process". I think in asia there is a lot of peoples who understand enought the situation. They itself could to create the peace in region).
Looking to the South Koreans who more resists the US presents in here from day to day i don't think we need to ignore the its wishes.
Don't forget the anti-americans feeling in all the word rise a lot mostly becouse of US military presents practically everywhere.

Cheers.

Chevan
02-07-2007, 07:04 AM
...The US forces are mainly there as a confidence building measure and as a deterrent to the DPRK WMDs. In pure military terms the South is easily able to defend itself.
i.e. you agree the US troops really just protect its US interests ( i mean the limitation the China and Japane) but it's primary task is not the defence of S.Koreans?
IMO the good armed S.Korean army could defend itself the Korea. And i'm sure the N/Korea in fear to be totally destructed will not use the nucler wearpon.

Cheers.

Lancer44
02-07-2007, 08:36 AM
Technically the war isnt over. Just an armistice with the only agreement of status quo ante bellum. However no peace treaty was ever signed.

Sorry for GROSS Off Topic, General...
Can you provide info about WWII peace treaty? Was it ever signed?


i.e. you agree the US troops really just protect its US interests ( i mean the limitation the China and Japane) but it's primary task is not the defence of S.Koreans?
IMO the good armed S.Korean army could defend itself the Korea. And i'm sure the N/Korea in fear to be totally destructed will not use the nucler wearpon.

Cheers.

Well, I don't like both N and S Koreans... N/Koreans eats everything including
rats and cokroaches... But they have to, because their crazy leader fancy atomic weapons and Dubya in Washington is right that crazy boys in Israel and Pakistan can have toys ... but crazy boy in Korea will be kicked out of Wall Mart. Sort of a dogma... Let him eat shit!

S/Koreans eats dogs... I definitely don't like it!
I had auntie which ate doggie during Warsaw Uprising, but she was rather poor person, she had no idea how to build crappy, dangerous cars like KIA and very popular Hyundais. Sorry for spelling wrongly that lovely brand name...

Personally I think that S/Koreans cannot defend themselves without US presence... Anyone want to discuss it?
And how this stupid situation helps lovely Japan to expand?....

Cheers,

Lancer44

Gen. Sandworm
02-07-2007, 01:54 PM
Sorry for GROSS Off Topic, General...
Can you provide info about WWII peace treaty? Was it ever signed?


Sorry but I thought the unconditional surrender (-1 reservation by Japan) was enough. Surrender is peace. Ceasefire is different. The US had a couple of ceasefire's during Vietnam that lasted for a bit but the war continued. Surrender is a Peace Treaty to me. Please feel free to correct!

pdf27
02-07-2007, 02:03 PM
And i'm sure the N/Korea in fear to be totally destructed will not use the nucler wearpon.
A large part of the reason for keeping US troops in Korea is to maintain that fear in the North. The worry is that were they to leave, the DPRK might think they could get away with using Nukes against the south - after all they could claim they were merely "testing them on their own territory". The fact that they regard the whole of Korea south of the Yalu as their own territory is entirely irrelevant, of course.
So long as the US remains in Korea, the DPRK can't really use WMD without hitting US troops, which guarantees a US response. If the US troops aren't there, the response is no longer guaranteed.

Nickdfresh
02-07-2007, 11:29 PM
The bottom line is this:

North Korea is the only "rogue nation" with potential weapon systems that theoretically could reach US territory (Alaska and the west coast). That is the main reason why the US still stations a number of troops in South Korea...

Chevan
02-09-2007, 01:55 AM
A large part of the reason for keeping US troops in Korea is to maintain that fear in the North.

But this fear could freeze the peace process. In fact the N.Korea consider the US presents as the enemy. They have very convincing reason to develop nuke wearpon for the "defence" from possible US attack.
This is exclusive circle - USA need to hold the war contingent to "protect" it form possible N/Korean , N/Korea developed the nuklear wearpon to "protect" themself form the US.
In fact today in this region many countries considered the US as alien side in this conflict. They don't trust the US.
I think Instead of histerical world anti-N/Korean propoganda we could call the UN forces in this region. There a lot of states i think could send the the troops under UNN flag: China, Russia, Japane possible Australia and others - the all neighbouring states has the interest to hold teh peace in Korea.
So we will have manies pluses:
1. The UN contingent will protect the S.Korea from the possible attack form North. If they will attack the international forces this lead them to the total war with all neighbours - when the N/Korea invetable will defeated. So the UN forces could be enough for the "hold the communists".
2. The UN force could be guarantee for the North Korea - they never attack the N/Korea first. This could be very importaint for the peace process. The dictator Kim could not any more use the inner anti-american propoganda for its own dirty political aims. (In fact he represent the N/Korea as victim of US imperialism and every day the N/Korean mass-media convinces the people in US "agreesion plans".)
3. The UNN participation could activate the the dialog in new conditions. The N/Korean dictatorship could be much hard to use "old cold war arguments", they will forces to make soft the inner political dictature ( which mostly based on anty-americans slogans today) - this way of possible democratic transformation of N/Korean peoples - they could open the eyes to present conditions of its state.
In perspective - i don't see the reasons why the N/Korea could not to use the Chinas way of transforming of society - from the ultra communist dictature to the market economy with good relations with West.
We just need to "unfreeze: this proces IMO.

Cheer.

pdf27
02-09-2007, 01:48 PM
One very, very big problem with that Chevan - the UN are exactly who the North Koreans were fighting during the war phase. South Korea was a UN ward at the time of the invasion, and with Stalin boycotting the UN nobody objected to secretary general Trygve Lie (UN Secretary General)'s statement that North Korea had declared war on the UN. All the forces on the South Korean side were fighting under a UN mandate. For all I know the US forces in South Korea may still be covered by that mandate.

On point 1, you're having a laugh! Third world troops are virtually the only ones to be sent on UN peacekeeping missions, and they would most likely lose to the DPRK in short order. South Korea is massively more effective. The only way for them to be effective is to have large numbers of US troops under UN command - which is what they've got at the moment.

As for point 2, I think you're being rather naive there. The DPRK have almost total control of information flows inside North Korea, and even if they told their people that the UN had replaced the US

On point 3, it would be nice if it worked. Similar things have been tried in the past - e.g. with the light water reactors supplied under the agreed framework. North Korea has failed to keep to these agreements, and has generally weaseled it's way out of any restrictions placed on it by treaty.
North Korea could use the Chinese model very effectively - indeed, I would be surprised if the Chinese weren't pressuring them to do so. The current leadership show no interest in doing so however.

Chevan
02-10-2007, 12:47 PM
One very, very big problem with that Chevan - the UN are exactly who the North Koreans were fighting during the war phase.
South Korea was a UN ward at the time of the invasion, and with Stalin boycotting the UN nobody objected to secretary general Trygve Lie (UN Secretary General)'s statement that North Korea had declared war on the UN. All the forces on the South Korean side were fighting under a UN mandate. For all I know the US forces in South Korea may still be covered by that mandate.

No they could not be covered by UN today.
When the Korean war ended in 1953 the UN forces had come to home but the USA signed the two-side agreement with Sout Korean gov which let them to stay 35 000 garrison near N/Korea border. This is only US-S.Korea treaty which don't touch the UNN.


On point 1, you're having a laugh! Third world troops are virtually the only ones to be sent on UN peacekeeping missions, and they would most likely lose to the DPRK in short order. South Korea is massively more effective. The only way for them to be effective is to have large numbers of US troops under UN command - which is what they've got at the moment.

If China , Russia and Japan is the Third world for you :) ...
Let me notice you that the "large numbers" of US troops in Korea is just 30 000( for the comparition the S/Korea army is about 600 000).
Indeed the US troops in there has a practically zero military meaning - its basic goal to be the polotical guaranty of involving the USA in the conflict. This is just the withstand factor.
But the considering the anti-americans feeling in BOTH (!!!) Koreas today the US troops
is far rather the irritating factor then the protecting.
I think the real UN forces of different sides ( not US troop which present in Korea is blamed by the N.Korea as the Cold war survival) could be much more interested in peace process.


As for point 2, I think you're being rather naive there. The DPRK have almost total control of information flows inside North Korea, and even if they told their people that the UN had replaced the US

It seems you forgot that China and Vietnam had the simular communist dictatorship in nearest past and certainly they had total control of information inside. But as we know they chose the reform way ( thay had no any other way endeed) and today both states have a normal relations with West and USA particulary ( which was the mortal enemy for them not so long tome ago).
So i don't think i have to be the naive to suggest this way for the China in 1980 when it began the reforms.


On point 3, it would be nice if it worked. Similar things have been tried in the past - e.g. with the light water reactors supplied under the agreed framework. North Korea has failed to keep to these agreements, and has generally weaseled it's way out of any restrictions placed on it by treaty.

Actually in 1994 the Clinton gov had a good agreement with N/Korea. They offered the Koreans to build the light water reactor for the purely energy-prouction supplies . In the first moment it seems was all right. But later US decelerated and in 2002 totally refused this parthership. Hence the piese process was interrupted, inspite of the two leaders of both Korea had a meetehg in 2000 in Seul.

Well your point as i understood is to do nothing ,right?
Indeed last time i heared nothing except the anti-N/Korean demagogy. This look from the side like the US simply warming up the political opposition in South Asia -nothing more.
The dialog is frozen , the N.Korea rockets still fly in the sky(Last rocket fall down in the 150 killometres from the russian city of Vladivostok).
This is no ridiculous more.
We need to do something, the UN could be the compromise IMO . But who will do it?
Its seems the US administration has the only one way to solve all the problems - the little "victorious" war like in Iraq. And I don't wish the repeeting this scenario in the Far East near the Rusian bother agains the nucler state.

Cheers.

pdf27
02-11-2007, 05:30 AM
No they could not be covered by UN today.
When the Korean war ended in 1953 the UN forces had come to home but the USA signed the two-side agreement with Sout Korean gov which let them to stay 35 000 garrison near N/Korea border. This is only US-S.Korea treaty which don't touch the UNN.
OK, my bad. I didn't bother to check if there was such a treaty.


If China , Russia and Japan is the Third world for you :) ...
If they got involved, I've got no problems (particularly China as the DPRK wouldn't dare upset the Chinese). Problem is, the countries who normally get involved in UN Peacekeeping are places like Ghana and Bangladesh.


So i don't think i have to be the naive to suggest this way for the China in 1980 when it began the reforms.
Big difference - the guy in charge of China (Deng Xiaoping) is on record as far back as the 1960s as saying "It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice", indicating at least some tolerance for differing economic measures. There is no sign of any such leeway in the DPRK.


Actually in 1994 the Clinton gov had a good agreement with N/Korea. They offered the Koreans to build the light water reactor for the purely energy-prouction supplies . In the first moment it seems was all right. But later US decelerated and in 2002 totally refused this parthership.
All depends on your point of view. The US was pretty much bounced into that agreement by Jimmy Carter (he wasn't far off negotiating it by himself and then announcing that the US had agreed to it without checking with the US!), and from their perspective the DPRK had thoroughly violated the agreement.

Egorka
02-13-2007, 03:45 PM
Hi!

I am watching the documentary on History channel about Nho Gun Ri massacer as I write. It is very disturbing.

They bombed refugies on purpose. I mean american soldiers were escorting korean refugies. Then ordered them to stop and left away. After short time airplane bombed the group people. Then american troops came back and ordered the survivers to stend up and go again.

One episode particulary struck my attention. First after the large group of refugies was shot upon several hundred survivors tried to hide under aa bridge for several days. The americans kept shooting at anything moving.
Among the hiding survivors was a father with a small baby whose mother was just killled before. The baby got to eat and so screamed. Every time baby scrimed the soldiers shot in to under the bridge. So other refugies complained about the babyt cruying because it could lead to more death. Darther could not feed the baby and saw that the chanses for his own sone were minimal. So he drowned his own son in a wather hole.

Chevan
02-17-2007, 11:35 AM
Big difference - the guy in charge of China (Deng Xiaoping) is on record as far back as the 1960s as saying "It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice", indicating at least some tolerance for differing economic measures. There is no sign of any such leeway in the DPRK.

May be you just don't wish to see those attempts of leeway in DPRK? ;)
In the compare with China in 1970-80 which was not in the isolation and economic blocade the N.Korea is. The problem is for them the world don't let them to survive. The constant anti-Koreans hysteria in mass media, the blaming the N/Korea nuclear program as the main threat for the world peace( but by the strange way nobody worry about othe nuclear programs of states which more friendly for the US today (and while!!!) like Pakistan and Israel.
This look like as i said the close circle - the US threaten the N.Korea by the war , N.Korea threaten the world by its nucler wearpon. Who is *** is here? ;)
And I don't think the Koreans so stupid to kill each other for the power in the Korea - the TIME has already changed.
In 2000 the both leaders had a meeting in Seul. It was good begining for the brother-states on the sense.



All depends on your point of view. The US was pretty much bounced into that agreement by Jimmy Carter (he wasn't far off negotiating it by himself and then announcing that the US had agreed to it without checking with the US!), and from their perspective the DPRK had thoroughly violated the agreement.
The fact that you admit the all depends on personal point proves you don't know what is going on. And you don't sure in your point.
You right from the US point the DPRK had thoroughly violated the agreement, but from the N.Koreans point the US had it. But the problem still is not solved - this prove the former US methods doesn't work now. Hence we need to change the methods.
As for me the anti-Korean shit is intensify the problem. That's IMHO.

P.S. It seems Bush has decided to increase the contingent in Iraq. Why he don't use the 30 000 of american troops from the S.Korea?


Cheers.

Chevan
02-17-2007, 11:55 AM
Hi!
Among the hiding survivors was a father with a small baby whose mother was just killled before. The baby got to eat and so screamed. Every time baby scrimed the soldiers shot in to under the bridge. So other refugies complained about the babyt cruying because it could lead to more death. Darther could not feed the baby and saw that the chanses for his own sone were minimal. So he drowned his own son in a wather hole.

Oh my god !!!
This resemble to me the SS- zondercommand behavior in the occuped USSR.
Those guys very liked to kill the children and its mams.
So maybe the Nho Gun Ri massacer was in the basis on the Picasso picture?
But what was in Shinchun then?
All what i found is just the "fifth column site". Its stange but its seems in there were really terrible things - the official US sources ignore it , but the some so called "activist group" use it as anti-americans incident. What was in there?

Gen. Sandworm
02-18-2007, 06:46 AM
Oh my god !!!
This resemble to me the SS- zondercommand behavior in the occuped USSR.
Those guys very liked to kill the children and its mams.
So maybe the Nho Gun Ri massacer was in the basis on the Picasso picture?
But what was in Shinchun then?
All what i found is just the "fifth column site". Its stange but its seems in there were really terrible things - the official US sources ignore it , but the some so called "activist group" use it as anti-americans incident. What was in there?

Its hard to say what Picasso's Picture is about ..... if anything???

However the No Gun Ri incident seems to have some clout! Here is what wiki had to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri

Chevan
02-18-2007, 09:04 AM
Its hard to say what Picasso's Picture is about ..... if anything???

However the No Gun Ri incident seems to have some clout! Here is what wiki had to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri

Yes Gen i've already read about No Gun Ri massacre in Wiki.
And may be no some incident was in the Picasso Picture , but the facts of mass killing of civilians was the reality.

pdf27
02-18-2007, 12:43 PM
May be you just don't wish to see those attempts of leeway in DPRK? ;)
More a case of I'm rather scared of the tendency in politicians to see such attempts when they aren't there, and the possible (probable?) consequences. The DPRK are attempting to develop nuclear weapons (may even have one - the nuclear test they did would tend to suggest they don't however), have in the past started an unprovoked war - which is technically still ongoing, do not appear susceptible to external pressure of any sort and do not appear to follow a chain of logic and reason that is recognisable and predictable from outside.
While I would love to see such a state changing - and I am very concious of the fact that Mao was very much in favour of nuking the whole world until he actually got nukes and realised what they could do to China - there are huge risks involved in what the change could cause in the transitional stage and how it could go wrong/be misinterpreted. That's why I'm acting so cautiously about it all.

Oh, and apologies if this is a bit snappy - nothing personal, I've just had an awful weekend.

Nickdfresh
02-22-2007, 10:14 PM
Oh my god !!!
This resemble to me the SS- zondercommand behavior in the occuped USSR.
Those guys very liked to kill the children and its mams.
So maybe the Nho Gun Ri massacer was in the basis on the Picasso picture?
But what was in Shinchun then?
All what i found is just the "fifth column site". Its stange but its seems in there were really terrible things - the official US sources ignore it , but the some so called "activist group" use it as anti-americans incident. What was in there?

Maybe you should read what actually took place, put the historical event in its proper perspective and context, then make your judgement...

And avoid "activist groups" spewing exaggerations to get attention...



There were a series of articles in US newspapers on Nho Gun Ri in the late 1990s.

It was a case of poorly trained US troops hastily deployed, with obsolete equipment, and being defeated by a third world army when they were told to expect an easy victory. They were often retreating and cut off, and feared that partisans were moving with civilians into their rear-areas. this is the main reason why civilians were slaughtered.

But were those Korean's lives worth more than the Afghan civilians that were slaughtered by the Red Army between 1979 and 1989?

Chevan
02-23-2007, 02:59 AM
Maybe you should read what actually took place, put the historical event in its proper perspective and context, then make your judgement...

And avoid "activist groups" spewing exaggerations to get attention...

Oh Nick i've begin to worry of your vanishing for a long time in forum.
Where were you ? It is all right? ;)
Well Nick i would be very glad not read those "activist group site" but the all what i found about Shuncin massacre (which was mentioned in Wiki) were in there.
So i will not have nothing if you go on Wiki and repair the article as you wish. ( certainly i believe you have the obviouse evidence there were never massacre in Shuncin ;) ).
But while i didn't find any material about Chuncin in the official US sources. It's strange if there were never be the massacre ,why the american "fifth column" used it in its sites, don't you think?
Moreover some conclisions let us to admit that the Nho Gun Ri massacre was not the single massacre of sivilians in Korea ( it was only single which floated to the surface in western mass-media).
I have no intention to blame somebody but i just to wish to learn the true. I don't think the UN forces make only atrocities in N/Korea, by how could we confirm or refused some events if instead of research of documents you prefer only advise to " put the historical event in its proper perspective and context, then make your judgement..."
How could we learn the true with such opponents.
I/m very thankful to the honest pdf and Sandworm for the information which they posted about problem. ( and the reasons anti-americanism in S/Korea particulary).
But if you have nothing to add on sense why you hope i will calm of your advises.


... and being defeated by a third world army when they were told to expect an easy victory. They were often retreating and cut off, and feared that partisans were moving with civilians into their rear-areas. this is the main reason why civilians were slaughtered.

May be you don't know but this is exact situation of mass murdering of civilians in the occuped Ukraine , Belorussia and Russia by the Nazi in 1941-44.
Thay also was expected the easy victory above USSR and they also had a "fear of partisan". Do you know why there were a lot of partisans - becouse the Germans behaved as the real occupants- they had began from the mass killing of civilians.
This was a close cirlcle - the violence generated the violence. And there was never the end.


But were those Korean's lives worth more than the Afghan civilians that were slaughtered by the Red Army between 1979 and 1989?
Noway Nick. Certainly those Korean's lives worth no more than the Afghan civilians. And the old mudak Breznev mush understood it in 1979 when he ( becouse of his senile marasmus) let the hight military command of USSR to send the troops in Afganistan( as it was said for the people for the "supporting of international duty"). It was the imperial policy which lead this old Politbureau to the catastrophe in 1991).
The 1979-1989 Afganistan war took away lives about 1 -1,5 millions of people ( mostly becouse of civil war). And this responsibility of soviet gov.

Now tell me please dear Nick how many people must kill the Washington's mudaks befor they will stop?
Korea , Vietnam, Pamama, Somali, Laos, Iraq (1991) , Afganistan ( 2002), Iraq (2003)?
Now they plann to invade the Iran.
How many millions they kill befor they would stop to kill? Don't you know?

Cheers.

Nickdfresh
02-24-2007, 09:53 AM
Oh Nick i've begin to worry of your vanishing for a long time in forum.
Where were you ? It is all right? ;)

Well, a Russian offered me glowing tea, so I ran.;)

Just kidding, I've been very busy with a recent partial move and basically have been living near two different cities about 700km apart. So things are hectic as I am surrounded by packed boxes as we speak.

My time is limited and I also Mod at another (Classic Van Halen) website and feel obligated to monitor for spam and trolls. Plus, there's talk of a reunion, so I've been there a lot. Thanks for your concern though...


Well Nick i would be very glad not read those "activist group site" but the all what i found about Shuncin massacre (which was mentioned in Wiki) were in there.
So i will not have nothing if you go on Wiki and repair the article as you wish. ( certainly i believe you have the obviouse evidence there were never massacre in Shuncin ;) ).
But while i didn't find any material about Chuncin in the official US sources. It's strange if there were never be the massacre ,why the american "fifth column" used it in its sites, don't you think?

Here ya go buddy:


Letter on Korean War Massacre Reveals Plan to Shoot Refugees
Historian Discovers U.S. Envoy's Writings Relating to No Gun Ri

By Charles J. Hanley and Martha Mendoza
Associated Press
Tuesday, May 30, 2006; A04

More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document from the war's chaotic early days has come to light -- a letter from the U.S. ambassador to Seoul, informing the State Department that U.S. soldiers would shoot refugees approaching their lines.

The letter -- dated the day of the Army's mass killing of South Korean refugees at No Gun Ri in 1950 -- is the strongest indication yet that such a policy existed for all U.S. forces in Korea, and the first evidence that that policy was known to upper ranks of the U.S. government.

"If refugees do appear from north of US lines they will receive warning shots, and if they then persist in advancing they will be shot," wrote Ambassador John J. Muccio, in his message to Assistant Secretary of State Dean Rusk.

The letter reported on decisions made at a high-level meeting in South Korea on July 25, 1950, the night before the 7th U.S. Cavalry Regiment shot the refugees at No Gun Ri.

Estimates vary on the number of dead at No Gun Ri. U.S. soldiers' estimates ranged from fewer than 100 to "hundreds" dead; Korean survivors say about 400, mostly women and children, were killed at the village 100 miles southeast of Seoul, the South Korean capital. Hundreds more refugees were killed in later, similar episodes, survivors say.

The No Gun Ri killings were documented in a Pulitzer Prize-winning story by the Associated Press in 1999, which prompted a 16-month Pentagon inquiry.

The Pentagon concluded that the No Gun Ri shootings, which lasted three days, were "an unfortunate tragedy" -- "not a deliberate killing." It suggested panicky soldiers, acting without orders, opened fire because they feared that an approaching line of families, baggage and farm animals concealed enemy troops.

But Muccio's letter indicates the actions of the 7th Cavalry were consistent with policy, adopted because of concern that North Koreans would infiltrate via refugee columns. And in subsequent months, U.S. commanders repeatedly ordered refugees shot, documents show.

The Muccio letter, declassified in 1982, is discussed in a new book by American historian Sahr Conway-Lanz, who discovered the document at the National Archives, where the AP also has obtained a copy.

Conway-Lanz, a former Harvard historian and now an archivist of the National Archives' Nixon collection, was awarded the Stuart L. Bernath Award of the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations for the article on which the book is based.

"With this additional piece of evidence, the Pentagon report's interpretation [of No Gun Ri] becomes difficult to sustain," Conway-Lanz argues in his book, "Collateral Damage," published this spring by Routledge.

The Army report's own list of sources for the 1999-2001 investigation shows its researchers reviewed the microfilm containing the Muccio letter. But the 300-page report did not mention it.

Asked about this, Pentagon spokeswoman Betsy Weiner would say only that the Army inspector general's report was "an accurate and objective portrayal of the available facts based on 13 months of work."

Said Louis Caldera, who was Army secretary in 2001 and is now University of New Mexico president, "Millions of pages of files were reviewed, and it is certainly possible they may have simply missed it."

Former Washington Post diplomatic correspondent Don Oberdorfer, a historian of Korea who served on a team of outside experts who reviewed the investigation, said he did not recall seeing the Muccio message. "I don't know why, since the military claimed to have combed all records from any source."

Muccio noted in his 1950 letter that U.S. commanders feared disguised North Korean soldiers were infiltrating American lines via refugee columns.

As a result, those meeting on the night of July 25, 1950 -- top staff officers of the U.S. 8th Army, Muccio's representative Harold J. Noble and South Korean officials -- decided on a policy of air-dropping leaflets telling South Korean civilians not to head south toward U.S. defense lines and of shooting them if they did approach U.S. lines despite warning shots, the ambassador wrote to Rusk.

Rusk, Muccio and Noble, who was embassy first secretary, are all dead. It is not known what action, if any, Rusk and others in Washington may have taken as a result of the letter.

Muccio told Rusk, who was secretary of state during the Vietnam War, that he was writing him "in view of the possibility of repercussions in the United States" from such deadly U.S. tactics.

But the No Gun Ri killings -- as well as others in the ensuing months -- remained hidden from history until the AP report of 1999, in which soldiers who were at No Gun Ri corroborated the Korean survivors' accounts.

Survivors said U.S. soldiers first forced them from nearby villages on July 25, 1950, and then stopped them in front of U.S. lines the next day, when they were attacked without warning by aircraft as hundreds sat atop a railroad embankment. Troops of the 7th Cavalry followed with ground fire as survivors took shelter under a railroad bridge.

The late Army Col. Robert M. Carroll, a lieutenant at No Gun Ri, said in a 1998 interview that he remembered the order radioed across the warfront on the morning of July 26 to stop refugees from crossing battle lines. "What do you do when you're told nobody comes through? . . . We had to shoot them to hold them back."

Other soldier witnesses attested to radioed orders to open fire at No Gun Ri.

Since that episode was confirmed in 1999, South Koreans have lodged complaints with the Seoul government about more than 60 other alleged large-scale killings of refugees by the U.S. military in the 1950-53 war.

The Army report of 2001 acknowledged that investigators learned of other, unspecified civilian killings, but said these would not be investigated.

AP research uncovered at least 19 declassified U.S. military documents showing commanders ordered or authorized such killings in 1950-51.

In a statement issued Monday in Seoul, a No Gun Ri survivors group called that episode "a clear war crime," demanded an apology and compensation from the U.S. government, and said Congress and the United Nations should conduct investigations. The survivors also said they would file a lawsuit against the Pentagon for alleged manipulation of the earlier probe.

Gary Solis, a West Point expert on war crimes, said the policy described by Muccio clearly "deviates from typical wartime procedures. It's an obvious violation of the bedrock core principle of the law of armed conflict -- distinction."

Solis said soldiers always have the right to defend themselves. But "noncombatants are not to be purposely targeted."

But William Eckhardt, lead Army prosecutor in the My Lai atrocities case in Vietnam, sensed "angst, great angst" in the letter because officials worried about what might happen. "If a mob doesn't stop when they're coming at you, you fire over their heads. And if they still don't stop, you fire at them. Standard procedure," he said.
© 2006 The Washington Post Company (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/29/AR2006052900914.html)

The Associated Press ran a Pulitzer Prize winning series of articles on this in 1999, which is what I was thinking of.

Incidentally, some claim that the No Gun Ri massacre has been exaggerated. I do not know, but you can read the dissenting opinion here. (http://hnn.us/articles/3626.html)

Nickdfresh
02-24-2007, 10:18 AM
A Time (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,31870,00.html) article from 1999...

Incidentally, it appears that this incident has been debunked as a wild exaggerration of killings that did take place. One of the sources cited in the 1999 (AP) articles is believed to have not been there, and reported second hand information as an eye-witness account...

See here (http://archive.salon.com/books/feature/2002/06/03/nogunri/print.html) for more info...

Unfortunately the original 1999 AP articles seem to now be available only in a scholarly data base I don't have access too...

Draw your own conclusions...

Mine are that a small scale "massacre" and illegal killings of civilians took place, but the numbers are much lower than have been reported (my guess is about 100 were killed, and their deaths are regrettable) ...

Nickdfresh
02-24-2007, 11:33 AM
...
May be you don't know but this is exact situation of mass murdering of civilians in the occuped Ukraine , Belorussia and Russia by the Nazi in 1941-44.
Thay also was expected the easy victory above USSR and they also had a "fear of partisan". Do you know why there were a lot of partisans - becouse the Germans behaved as the real occupants- they had began from the mass killing of civilians.
This was a close cirlcle - the violence generated the violence. And there was never the end.

Actually, there is a clear difference from the 7th Calvary's actions as compared to the Nazis (ever hear of Gen. Custer and "The Battle of Little Bighorn?":) ) in that the the German's carried out "reprisal" massacres in revenge for attacks whereas the Americans, in this instance, killed a minuscule number in comparison in order to prevent them from crossing their lines.

It's a far cry from the sustained, savage German counterinsurgency campaign carried out on the Soviet steppes. Stop embellishing.:) There weren't even really any N. Korean partisans that I know of. Just paranoid US soldiers and commanders and panic fire...


Noway Nick. Certainly those Korean's lives worth no more than the Afghan civilians. And the old mudak Breznev mush understood it in 1979 when he ( becouse of his senile marasmus) let the hight military command of USSR to send the troops in Afganistan( as it was said for the people for the "supporting of international duty"). It was the imperial policy which lead this old Politbureau to the catastrophe in 1991).
The 1979-1989 Afganistan war took away lives about 1 -1,5 millions of people ( mostly becouse of civil war). And this responsibility of soviet gov.

Now tell me please dear Nick how many people must kill the Washington's mudaks befor they will stop?
Korea , Vietnam, Pamama, Somali, Laos, Iraq (1991) , Afganistan ( 2002), Iraq (2003)?
Now they plann to invade the Iran.
How many millions they kill befor they would stop to kill? Don't you know?

Cheers.

I don't know if they have a quota. :)

But some of those comparisons are fraudulent, some valid. I doubt Bush'league will get his war on Iran. But in Somalia, I think BushI/Clinton were trying to avert a famine before realizing they had stepped on a bunch of feuding Warlords toes who saw food-aid as the key to power. Silly us.

And Afghanistan attacked us first. Iraq is a stupid war, Vietnam was stupid, but the victorious Hanoi regime has mismanaged the country, until recently, to the point that many wish we'd won (even though we were supporting incompetent, corrupt assholes). Although, in a sense, Saigon is still Saigon (and not Ho Chi Minh City) according to it's residents, so it's all various shades of gray. There is still an incredible amount of American culture in southern Vietnam, so they can only hate America so much. In any case, there is some anti-Americanism in South Korea (ROK), but it has been said that it is very superficial in that S. Korean university students are expected to be radical protesters as a right of passage, who then go on to be upstanding middle class citizens in the juggernaut Korean economy, and realize that the Americans that they sell Hyundais and Kias too aren't so evil after all...:)


Whatever did the Soviets do for Afghanistan other than to set the stage for the horrid Taliban to come to power?

Chevan
02-24-2007, 03:30 PM
Well, a Russian offered me glowing tea, so I ran.;)

I would be glad to offerer you a little Vodka , but tea is not bet too ;)


Just kidding, I've been very busy with a recent partial move and basically have been living near two different cities about 700km apart. So things are hectic as I am surrounded by packed boxes as we speak.

My time is limited and I also Mod at another (Classic Van Halen) website and feel obligated to monitor for spam and trolls. Plus, there's talk of a reunion, so I've been there a lot. Thanks for your concern though...


What Classic Van Hallen site do you mean?


Here ya go buddy:



The Associated Press ran a Pulitzer Prize winning series of articles on this in 1999, which is what I was thinking of.

Incidentally, some claim that the No Gun Ri massacre has been exaggerated. I do not know, but you can read the dissenting opinion here. (http://hnn.us/articles/3626.html)

Well Nick you can if you want :D
That's good infor about No Gun Ri, thanks. Later i would read the dissenting opinion. So am i understand you right - you could not find something about Shuncin massacre?

Chevan
02-24-2007, 03:49 PM
Actually, there is a clear difference from the 7th Calvary's actions as compared to the Nazis (ever hear of Gen. Custer and "The Battle of Little Bighorn?"

What's The Battle of Little Bighorn?
Nick it seems you forget that i'am from another country ( and even more i belong anothe cultury) i am not able to know all what you've mentioned.


in that the the German's carried out "reprisal" massacres in revenge for attacks whereas the Americans, in this instance, killed a minuscule number in comparison in order to prevent them from crossing their lines.

I didn't mean the number of civilians killing but the "reasons" of americans are the simular which liked to tell the Nazi. They had the simular cynism to the civilians of states which were occuped by them.


It's a far cry from the sustained, savage German counterinsurgency campaign carried out on the Soviet steppes. Stop embellishing.:)

I've just compare it with the thing which i really know from history of my country.
As i said the cynical shoting the people from the mashin gun was the analogical in the USSR in WW2 by the Germans. May be you could not present this becouse the US was never occuped by Germans i could.


There weren't even really any N. Korean partisans that I know of. Just paranoid US soldiers and commanders and panic fire...

TOO much of paranoid soldiers and commander mate ;) Don't you think so?



I don't know if they have a quota. :)

That's really bother me;
If i could learn the quota i will relax and enjoy, but i could not.
Becouse i don't know who will be the next -Iran, Belorussia or maybe N/Korea?


But some of those comparisons are fraudulent, some valid. I doubt Bush'league will get his war on Iran. But in Somalia, I think BushI/Clinton were trying to avert a famine before realizing they had stepped on a bunch of feuding Warlords toes who saw food-aid as the key to power. Silly us.

And Afghanistan attacked us first. Iraq is a stupid war, Vietnam was stupid, but the victorious Hanoi regime has mismanaged the country, until recently, to the point that many wish we'd won (even though we were supporting incompetent, corrupt assholes). Although, in a sense, Saigon is still Saigon (and not Ho Chi Minh City) according to it's residents, so it's all various shades of gray. There is still an incredible amount of American culture in southern Vietnam, so they can only hate America so much. In any case, there is some anti-Americanism in South Korea (ROK), but it has been said that it is very superficial in that S. Korean university students are expected to be radical protesters as a right of passage, who then go on to be upstanding middle class citizens in the juggernaut Korean economy, and realize that the Americans that they sell Hyundais and Kias too aren't so evil after all...:)


Whatever did the Soviets do for Afghanistan other than to set the stage for the horrid Taliban to come to power?
What what?
What did you say about Tailban in there?

cheers.

Egorka
02-25-2007, 02:52 PM
Whatever did the Soviets do for Afghanistan other than to set the stage for the horrid Taliban to come to power?
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Nickdfresh
02-25-2007, 11:10 PM
I would be glad to offerer you a little Vodka , but tea is not bet too ;)


That would be nice right now...


What Classic Van Hallen site do you mean?

www.rotharmy.com/forums



Well Nick you can if you want :D
That's good infor about No Gun Ri, thanks. Later i would read the dissenting opinion. So am i understand you right - you could not find something about Shuncin massacre?

I'll take a look this week...

Nickdfresh
02-25-2007, 11:18 PM
What's The Battle of Little Bighorn?
Nick it seems you forget that i'am from another country ( and even more i belong anothe cultury) i am not able to know all what you've mentioned.

It was a battle/massacre in with Gen George Armstrong Custer's 7th Cav. was wiped out by a superior Indian/Native American force, mainly due to his foolish arrogance...

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/custer.htm



I didn't mean the number of civilians killing but the "reasons" of americans are the simular which liked to tell the Nazi. They had the simular cynism to the civilians of states which were occuped by them.

I've just compare it with the thing which i really know from history of my country.
As i said the cynical shoting the people from the mashin gun was the analogical in the USSR in WW2 by the Germans. May be you could not present this becouse the US was never occuped by Germans i could.


You could say that about virtually any army in almost any large scale war...



TOO much of paranoid soldiers and commander mate ;) Don't you think so?

Yes.



That's really bother me;
If i could learn the quota i will relax and enjoy, but i could not.
Becouse i don't know who will be the next -Iran, Belorussia or maybe N/Korea?

What what?
What did you say about Tailban in there?

cheers.

I think Bush has run his course and will be unable to start anymore wars in his final

Chevan
02-26-2007, 03:36 AM
It was a battle/massacre in with Gen George Armstrong Custer's 7th Cav. was wiped out by a superior Indian/Native American force, mainly due to his foolish arrogance...

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/custer.htm

Thanks Nick for this interesting travel to the US history.


Little Bighorn was the pinnacle of the Indians' power. They had achieved their greatest victory yet, but soon their tenuous union fell apart in the face of the white onslaught. Outraged over the death of a popular Civil War hero on the eve of the Centennial, the nation demanded and received harsh retribution.
I can imagine what was this "retrebution" like - the whole henocide of indians perhaps.



You could say that about virtually any army in almost any large scale war...

That's right mate, but only germans mostly in the East made it publically for the politic purposes.

I think Bush has run his course and will be unable to start anymore wars in his final
[/quote]
I would to believe you, but something mention me that this is not simply the US pathific fleet has come recently to the Gulf. ?

Chevan
03-02-2007, 03:01 AM
Sorry guys for the next post.
I found the terrile photos of ececution of N'Koreans civilians.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/korea/us%20war%20crimes%20in%20korea.html
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/korea/us%20war%20crimes%20in%20korea/kp1.jpghttp://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/korea/us%20war%20crimes%20in%20korea/kp2.jpghttp://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/korea/us%20war%20crimes%20in%20korea/kp3.jpg

Some of 18 "execution photos" taken of some of the 1,800 Korean civilians/political prisoners removed from the Taejon Prison in early July 1950, suspected of having "socialist or communist" sympathies, immediately prior to their execution by South Korean police acting under orders from Syngman Rhee in concert with U.S. military officers. Photo taken by U.S. Major Abbott, Army Liaison Officer, with a Leica camera, developed and printed by attaché office staff. Lt. Col. Bob E. Edwards, the U.S. Army Attaché in charge of documenting the executions, was quoted as saying, "General treatment of Prisoners of War after evacuation from front has been good." Photo from U.S. National Archive collection.
What's happened there?

pdf27
03-02-2007, 08:48 AM
What's happened there?
These are South Korean civilians, not North Korean ones. Check the dates - these executions took place two months before the North Korean invasion of the south, when the US military control of things was pretty loose. These people were "executed" for being suspected communists - most likely rather in the manner in which the KGB or any South American Junta would round up and murder their opponents. Morally wrong no doubt, but not a war crime (if only because it didn't happen in time of war!).

Chevan
03-03-2007, 05:48 PM
These are South Korean civilians, not North Korean ones. Check the dates - these executions took place two months before the North Korean invasion of the south, when the US military control of things was pretty loose. These people were "executed" for being suspected communists - most likely rather in the manner in which the KGB or any South American Junta would round up and murder their opponents. Morally wrong no doubt, but not a war crime (if only because it didn't happen in time of war!).

Sorry pdr sure you right it was the Sout Koreans civilians.


most likely rather in the manner in which the KGB or any South American Junta would round up and murder their opponents
Mate i don't know about Junta but neither KGB shoted the people for "being suspected".
This i tell you as the man who lived when KGB existed.
The mass killing of "suspecteds" was a lovely method of Nazi in occuped territories.
Nevertheless the execution the people in South Korwea befor the two month the War is the strange IMO.
Why they killed them if they could not to know the war will began. As i remember the official reason to of Korean war was the "Sudden N/Korean attack". So if they know about attack two month before? This is very strange.

Morally wrong no doubt, but not a war crime (if only because it didn't happen in time of war)
But this is still a CRIME. And this crime was made with participation of six US officers.Don't you think this normal?

pdf27
03-04-2007, 04:43 PM
Mate i don't know about Junta but neither KGB shoted the people for "being suspected".
This i tell you as the man who lived when KGB existed.
Even during the Purges and the Great Terror of the 1930s? The impression I have of that period was that the KGB (or whatever they were calling themselves at the time - Cheka?) were pretty much given a quota of people to round up with no specifications on what they had to have done or even if they were guilty of anything. I am not suggesting they continued to do this into the 1980s.


Why they killed them if they could not to know the war will began. As i remember the official reason to of Korean war was the "Sudden N/Korean attack". So if they know about attack two month before? This is very strange.
I believe they were shot for being suspected infiltrators/spies. Although the attack itself appears to have been largely without warning, there was a great deal of tension between the two countries beforehand and this may have led to the killings.


But this is still a CRIME. And this crime was made with participation of six US officers.Don't you think this normal?
Not normal nowadays, but probably was at the time. Remember moral standards change over time. Furthermore, it was probably not regarded as being a crime at the time.

Nickdfresh
03-05-2007, 12:36 AM
Sorry pdr sure you right it was the Sout Koreans civilians.

Mate i don't know about Junta but neither KGB shoted the people for "being suspected".
This i tell you as the man who lived when KGB existed.
The mass killing of "suspecteds" was a lovely method of Nazi in occuped territories.y

Oh come on Chev, the NKVD/MGB/KGB never killed civilians?

The Red Army troops and secret police committed many atrocities whilst occupying Germany...

The ad hoc shootings of Korean civilians, while tragic and horrific, were not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres of Soviet civilians by the Reich, and you know it!

The North Korean Army murdered far more civilians before they were driven out of Seoul in 1950...



The killings happened in "the heat of the moment," much like a "crime of passion."


Nevertheless the execution the people in South Korwea befor the two month the War is the strange IMO.
Why they killed them if they could not to know the war will began. As i remember the official reason to of Korean war was the "Sudden N/Korean attack". So if they know about attack two month before? This is very strange.

No. Rhee killed them because he regarded them as a threat, just as the far more vicious Kim Ill Sung killed many more civilians suspected of pro-South Korean sympathies...


But this is still a CRIME. And this crime was made with participation of six US officers.Don't you think this normal?

Yes, but, what about the Soviet Red Army officers that presided over Kim Ill Sung's murders of North Korean dissidents?

Chevan
03-05-2007, 04:44 AM
Even during the Purges and the Great Terror of the 1930s?
[quote]
Do you mean the Big Red terror of 1918-21.
That's true. The bolshevics made a henocide of native russian population not KGB.
Great Purge of 1937-38 is another matter.
This was a Purge of Bastards who killed the people in previous times.
[quote]
The impression I have of that period was that the KGB (or whatever they were calling themselves at the time - Cheka?) were pretty much given a quota of people to round up with no specifications on what they had to have done or even if they were guilty of anything. I am not suggesting they continued to do this into the 1980s.

Not right to equal the NKVD of 1927-1939 and post war KGB.
Moral standards change over time - are your words?
Do you know fro instanse the a lot of former coloborationist with Hitler ( i mean the Army of Vlasov who were sended back to USSR) and even the former member of Police battalions who guilt of participation were proved weren't shoted - they get a different stretch -10-15-20 years but were not shoted.( Except the leaders and men who had personal gult in killing of peoples )
This is was in USSR in 1945-48. when "bloody murder Stalin" was in power.
After the war it were no killing of "suspected" in USSR ;) Surprising ?
i only know one case of killing the peoples in Novocherkassk - but this was a time of Krushev in 1961.
How doy you think why today in Baltic states there are a lot of former Waffen-SS veterans proudly marshed in pro-nazi parades?
Becouse they were sended to the prison for 10-15 years for the participation in the SS but THEY WERE NOT SHOTED. Becouse although they perticipation was proved , but there was NOT proved they killed the people. NOBODY kiled them for being "suspected" of sympaties of Nazi.


I believe they were shot for being suspected infiltrators/spies.

I/m too believe there were a mostly "enemy of people" ( who killed the russian people in 1918-1927) were executed during the Great Purge. That was right and they got the revenge for its "durty work".



Not normal nowadays, but probably was at the time. Remember moral standards change over time. Furthermore, it was probably not regarded as being a crime at the time.
Mass killing of prisoners couse "being suspected" is a crime of definition.
Even in USSR the guilt of "suspected" man must be proved, then he probably would sended to the prison or psihyshka (clinic).

Cheers.

Chevan
03-05-2007, 05:16 AM
y

Oh come on Chev, the NKVD/MGB/KGB never killed civilians?

Oh mate , sure you right the fact that NKVD killed the people justified the execution of South Koreans who sumpatized the communist ideas? ;)
I/m so stupid this was revenge for comrade Stalin. US sanctioned to kill the prisoners becouse the Stalin did it;)


The Red Army troops and secret police committed many atrocities whilst occupying Germany...

It was a war and it was the resault of henocide on the occuped Soviet territories.Althoug this could not be justified but it could be understand.The Germans killed 16 million in the East.
So how many americans civilians killed the S.Korean who sumpatized the communists to be the shoted the South Koreans dictatorship under americans observation.
BTW Red amy and NKVD were not capable to kill so much Germans as it were killed by Allied during firebombing compain ;)


The ad hoc shootings of Korean civilians, while tragic and horrific, were not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres of Soviet civilians by the Reich, and you know it!

Do you know mate Koreans lost 1,5 millions of civilians. This is don't look like not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres. This proved that in this was the killion of civilians was a common matter of both sides. And i don't see the reason to "justify the killings" of Korean by the S.Korea regime with USA becouse the N/Koreans did it.
I don't see the reason why the N/Korean war criminals are worst then the S.Korean ( who covered by USA today).


The North Korean Army murdered far more civilians before they were driven out of Seoul in 1950...

This is just suggestion Nick.This is the part of anty-N.Koreans hysteria which support the USA nowadays in its political purposes.
Indeed the rate of civilians killing was rough equal and even if considering the fierce Firebombing compain the N/Korean perished much more.


Yes, but, what about the Soviet Red Army officers that presided over Kim Ill Sung's murders of North Korean dissidents?
Any source pleas Nick where did you read about Soviet Army officers in Korea?

pdf27
03-05-2007, 05:05 PM
Do you mean the Big Red terror of 1918-21.
That's true. The bolshevics made a henocide of native russian population not KGB.
Quite probably - I haven't had the time to dig into it properly, and there is reason enough to suspect that those in power at the time will have at least attempted to cover up a proportion of those executions/murders which did take place. Funnily enough Russian and Western accounts differ when it comes to the number killed...

Chevan
03-06-2007, 12:51 AM
Quite probably - I haven't had the time to dig into it properly, and there is reason enough to suspect that those in power at the time will have at least attempted to cover up a proportion of those executions/murders which did take place. Funnily enough Russian and Western accounts differ when it comes to the number killed...
There is the BIG difference between first Bolshevicks murders , the times when a lot of them were executed by Purge and postwar KGB indeed.
If the bolshevick killed everyone who didn't support them( or simple neitral people ) from the class and native reasons. ( it was pure henocide) Then The Stalin's purge's aim was to "clear the party" from murders. The KGB task was the supporting the state safety. Its methods were soft but effective. They threat dissidents - soviet five column:sended to the climic or prison, or sended them out from the SU but not killed them.
I am not wondering the Russian and Western fugures deffer in tens times- there is nothing strange if to study the history in works of "historians" like dissidents ( who run away to the west in Cold war period).
If you will to study the English WW2 history on the work of D.Irving - you will find many "interesting" which quite differ from the official point ;)
Therefore neither so called "Western accounts" could never be the true in nature, becouse it has not basis on the archive datas.

Nickdfresh
03-08-2007, 09:06 PM
Oh mate , sure you right the fact that NKVD killed the people justified the execution of South Koreans who sumpatized the communist ideas? ;)
I/m so stupid this was revenge for comrade Stalin. US sanctioned to kill the prisoners becouse the Stalin did it;)

But they weren't "executed" as such. They were killed from a distance and were not at any time under control, nor in the custody, of the US troops. And what's rather puzzling is your thin, mocking veneer and constant obsession with any atrocities carried out by Americans or Western Europeans, and your hypersensitivity to any criticism of Soviet Russia, or of Vlady Putin..

BTW, how many massacres in Chechnya have been carried out by the Russian Army? Why don't you fixate more on things you can actually change?

That certainly doesn't justify nor excuse what happened. But it was far from shooting people in a village that had been secured, as the Germans hed in WWII.

I question whether you understand the actual context of events, or if your translator only works selectively when shit-stirring...


It was a war and it was the resault of henocide on the occuped Soviet territories.Althoug this could not be justified but it could be understand.The Germans killed 16 million in the East.
So how many americans civilians killed the S.Korean who sumpatized the communists to be the shoted the South Koreans dictatorship under americans observation.

I have no idea what your point is.


BTW Red amy and NKVD were not capable to kill so much Germans as it were killed by Allied during firebombing compain ;)

You have benefited from the "firebombing" of Germans at least as much as I have...


Do you know mate Koreans lost 1,5 millions of civilians. This is don't look like not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres. This proved that in this was the killion of civilians was a common matter of both sides. And i don't see the reason to "justify the killings" of Korean by the S.Korea regime with USA becouse the N/Koreans did it.
I don't see the reason why the N/Korean war criminals are worst then the S.Korean ( who covered by USA today).

Well, that's what happens when countries fight civil wars. The Soviet Russians fought on the side of a brutal dictatorship that now starves its own population through its intransigence and nihilst policies.

How glorious!


This is just suggestion Nick.This is the part of anty-N.Koreans hysteria which support the USA nowadays in its political purposes.
Indeed the rate of civilians killing was rough equal and even if considering the fierce Firebombing compain the N/Korean perished much more.

Any source pleas Nick where did you read about Soviet Army officers in Korea?

And what about the North Koreans that are starving to death for the system that the gleeming Red Air Force helped sustain there?

And I think I read about the Soviet officers in the air war thread you started...

Chevan
03-09-2007, 01:45 AM
But they weren't "executed" as such. They were killed from a distance and were not at any time under control, nor in the custody, of the US troops. And what's rather puzzling is your thin, mocking veneer and constant obsession with any atrocities carried out by Americans or Western Europeans, and your hypersensitivity to any criticism of Soviet Russia, or of Vlady Putin..

Oh no Nick , you again about Putin.;)
I/am wondering, every time when we speak about unpleasant things you try to change the theme to the Putin and KGB. Nice method Nick;)
Firstly find any my post where i am praising the Putin.
I am a little sensitive when you justify the US crimes becouse Stalin did it.
You like a little child Nick.
Secondary the bolshevicks massacre of the people today a widely known and studied.
But we practically nothing know about Korean period.Don't you think so?


BTW, how many massacres in Chechnya have been carried out by the Russian Army? Why don't you fixate more on things you can actually change?

What i can to change Nick? The situation in Chechnys has stabilised nowadays. There is much safer then it was 3-5 years ago. Week ago the federals annihilated the goup of terrorists in in the Osetia border( they prepeared the terrorist attack in the Dagestan).
But unfortunatelly i could not to say it about Iraq;)
It seems mate you prefere to give the advises to me instead of fixation on things which you can actually change.:D


That certainly doesn't justify nor excuse what happened. But it was far from shooting people in a village that had been secured, as the Germans hed in WWII.

Was it far from Germans or not is controversial question.
You know Nick mass killing the people who were "suspected in something" is very simular as the Bolshevik terror in 1918-22 and Nazy races purge in Germany till the WW2.


I question whether you understand the actual context of events, or if your translator only works selectively when shit-stirring...

I simply use the special KGB-translator, but shhhhhh....

You have benefited from the "firebombing" of Germans at least as much as I have...

And you have Chechen&Putin benefited from the every time when you do not know what to say about topic of thread ......


Well, that's what happens when countries fight civil wars. The Soviet Russians fought on the side of a brutal dictatorship that now starves its own population through its intransigence and nihilst policies.

How glorious!

That's right Nick.
But as we could to find in the hystory the USA&Co also supported not the
fluffy kittens in S.Korea.


And what about the North Koreans that are starving to death for the system that the gleeming Red Air Force helped sustain there?

The famine in the NKorea, its economic blockade and the constant anty-N.Korean hysteria in western medias this is whole another thread.
BTW Red Air Foces succesfully helped the China in 1946-47. As we know today the China's economic success will eclipse the USA through 15-20 years.


And I think I read about the Soviet officers in the air war thread you started...

The thread which i started tells about soviet air officers who defended the Korea from the firebombing , but not ones who participated in mass killing of prisoners. Feel the difference Nick.

Gen. Sandworm
03-09-2007, 07:57 AM
Round 455............Go! ;):D

Chevan
03-09-2007, 08:53 AM
Way Gen nice humore ;)
Thank for the god you not so serious like Panzerknacker. He could simply forbid the theme;)
Thanks a lot for the editing photo.

Nickdfresh
03-09-2007, 10:40 PM
Oh no Nick , you again about Putin.;)
I/am wondering, every time when we speak about unpleasant things you try to change the theme to the Putin and KGB. Nice method Nick;)

No, not at all. The "point" is that you fixate on all things unpleasant...


Firstly find any my post where i am praising the Putin.

Right after you find my post where I'm praising Korean massacres or firebombings...

I'm trying to find the post where you condemn the "massacres" of Chechen civilians. I mean, I know your gov't murders journalists that report any negative stories, so it may be tough to find. But I'm sure you're aware that it's a dirty war, right?


I am a little sensitive when you justify the US crimes becouse Stalin did it.
You like a little child Nick.

What about when you fixate on the deaths of a few dozen Koreans, but insult the millions of Jews murdered in WWII?

I think that is infantile indeed...


Secondary the bolshevicks massacre of the people today a widely known and studied.
But we practically nothing know about Korean period.Don't you think so?

We know "practically nothing?" Cheven, your whole premise is that this is an ignored event. Quite clearly, there has been major media coverage of this event, and the journalists weren't even thrown out a window afterward..:)


What i can to change Nick? The situation in Chechnys has stabilised nowadays. There is much safer then it was 3-5 years ago.

Safer for whom? When you kill the native population, I guess it's pretty safe for the Russians now?


Week ago the federals annihilated the goup of terrorists in in the Osetia border( they prepeared the terrorist attack in the Dagestan).

Well, the Russian terrorist forces got there first I suppose...


But unfortunatelly i could not to say it about Iraq;)

Well, Iraq is one of the few places in the world with a higher death rate for journalists in the world. (Iraq is #1 in this regard, Russia is third. Congratulations on your "democracy!")


It seems mate you prefere to give the advises to me instead of fixation on things which you can actually change.

No. I actually criticize my gov't. Didn't you read my posts at the RothArmy?


Was it far from Germans or not is controversial question.

No, but it is an absurd one...


You know Nick mass killing the people who were "suspected in something" is very simular as the Bolshevik terror in 1918-22 and Nazy races purge in Germany till the WW2.

Then compare them side by side. Give us an example of a Bolshevik terror pogrom or a Nazi purge, and compare the events, even the worst (and exaggerated I believe) recountings, and you'll see they aren't even close.


I simply use the special KGB-translator, but shhhhhh....


And you have Chechen&Putin benefited from the every time when you do not know what to say about topic of thread ......

No, I just wonder why your so fixated on past atrocities when there are so many contemporary ones, many committed by your country...


That's right Nick.
But as we could to find in the hystory the USA&Co also supported not the
fluffy kittens in S.Korea.

Yes, well Sigmon Rhee and his successors were mostly military junta *****s, but they still built a viable country with a good economy and something that has evolved into a democracy that tolerates dissent....

...Something more than I can say about your country.


The famine in the NKorea, its economic blockade and the constant anty-N.Korean hysteria in western medias this is whole another thread.

Yes, God forbid anyone be "hysterical" about the vicious DPRK regime(s).

I mean, there so benevolent and tolerant.


BTW Red Air Foces succesfully helped the China in 1946-47.

And the US gov't/USAAF helped China from at least 1939-1945, and the US went to War with Japan largely because of China.


As we know today the China's economic success will eclipse the USA through 15-20 years.

Well, when a country with an autocratic regime controls the world, I'm sure your life will be much better. Good luck, you may look back at these times with nostalgia...


The thread which i started tells about soviet air officers who defended the Korea from the firebombing , but not ones who participated in mass killing of prisoners. Feel the difference Nick.

Oh stop being so trite. The Soviets were there to gain combat experience against the USAF, and they were not on some humanitarian mission. You really think Stalin gave a damn about North Koreans being bombed?

They provided tactical air support to, and attempted fighter air superiority for, the the N Koreans, who started the whole thing as a war of aggression...

Oh, and by the way, as I have repeatedly stated, at no time were the Koreans killed by US troops "prisoners." They were never captured, nor were they in custody of US forces. They were killed at a standoff distance.

A point you seem to miss (repeatedly).

Egorka
03-11-2007, 06:19 AM
to Nickdfresh:

Sorry to cut in. May I just drop a quick comment.


What about when you fixate on the deaths of a few dozen Koreans, but insult the millions of Jews murdered in WWII?

I think you are very wrong if you think that Chevan wants or even intends to insult the memory of the jewish victims of the WW2.
He just merely points out that, though the destiny of the jews was unique in its own right, was not the center of that great tragedy that we call WW2.
The Holocaust was one of the worst chapters during the war, but not "the" worst one, as it is very often presented in the media.


Oh, and by the way, as I have repeatedly stated, at no time were the Koreans killed by US troops "prisoners." They were never captured, nor were they in custody of US forces. They were killed at a standoff distance.
It is by no means a funny subject, but still... ha-ha-ha... Your last sentence explains it all. ;)

Chevan
03-12-2007, 06:04 AM
Oh my god Nick

No, not at all. The "point" is that you fixate on all things unpleasant...

The whole Korean war was unpleasant .If you think it was something positive in this slaughter - tell us about please. Are the repeated facts of slaugter of civilians by both side must be the pleasure?


I'm trying to find the post where you condemn the "massacres" of Chechen civilians.

Try it hard Nick , becouse the "civilians" who explode the people are called the TERRORISTS EVERY WHERE ( even in Iraq;))

I mean, I know your gov't murders journalists that report any negative stories, so it may be tough to find. But I'm sure you're aware that it's a dirty war, right?

Oh those conspiracy theories again.
You know the my gov murders the jurnalists - what source of you knowlege?
Well i guess, this is the russian "fifh colunm" which so lovely in the west nowadays.
So Nick i "know" from american fifth column that the 9'11 attack was the work of CIA. And ilso i "know" about mass violence of political prisoners in US prisons like in Aby-Grabe. ( Did you see the photos? :D)
And tell me please what the reason is why i must not believe them?


What about when you fixate on the deaths of a few dozen Koreans, but insult the millions of Jews murdered in WWII?

The death of few dozen Koreans till the official war beginning is just small case of mass violence above the civils which led to perish about 1.5 million of people.
BTW this could be compared with jewish Holocaust( becouse the simular cynism and sensless cruelty above the civilians). And i don't see the reason why the millions of victims of Holocaust is more criminal than the slaughter the 1.5 millions of Koreans?
But this is whole another thread.


We know "practically nothing?" Cheven, your whole premise is that this is an ignored event. Quite clearly, there has been major media coverage of this event, and the journalists weren't even thrown out a window afterward..:)

Nevertheless you find nothing about Shuncin massacre. This is proved that insted of attempts to study this problem you try to change the topic. Or maybe you think you know EVERYTHING about it


Safer for whom? When you kill the native population, I guess it's pretty safe for the Russians now?

Safer for people who live here and for me particulary ( but certanly not for you).
There is not killings of native in Checnia. You're wrong Nicki. Theere a lot non-chechen lives in Kavkaz. And they all whant to live in Christian but not in Radical Islamic Kavkaz.
Certainly maybe some heads in Wiashington don't like the peace in Kavkaz, but this is ITS OWN PROBLEMS.


Well, the Russian terrorist forces got there first I suppose...

Dont be a ............. Nicki.


Well, Iraq is one of the few places in the world with a higher death rate for journalists in the world. (Iraq is #1 in this regard, Russia is third. Congratulations on your "democracy!")

Oh thanks mate you finaly have noticed the Iraq "democraty" is in the "first" place.
Look what could happen if the let the Washington to be the "world policement".
The hight death rate of journalists ( and not only journalists, but bisnessmens, politics ans simple people) was the DIRECT heritage of Eltsyn times of anarchy and crime. And you wrong blaiming this is the guilt of Putin or KGB/FSB.


No. I actually criticize my gov't. Didn't you read my posts at the RothArmy?

Yes i did. And i have to conclude you are enough right thinking man in inner american forum. But in here you have change by the strange way into the "patriot".
BTW i/am also critisized my gov early in our forum.


Then compare them side by side. Give us an example of a Bolshevik terror pogrom or a Nazi purge, and compare the events, even the worst (and exaggerated I believe) recountings, and you'll see they aren't even close.

What example do you need Nicki?
The simple search on Wiki gives you a lot of stories when bolshevic killed the people being suspected in "contr-revolutionary sympathies".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

The first official announcement, published in Izvestiya, "Appeal to the Working Class" on September 3, 1918 called for the workers to "crush the hydra of counterrevolution with massive terror". This was followed by the decree "On Red Terror", issued September 5, 1918 by the Cheka. Casualties in the fall of 1918 exceeded 10,000.

This was the first mass slaugter of bolsheviks. They murderd the russian professors, intelligentsia,clergy and simple people who were "suspected in the sympaties" for the non-communist. Look wery simular to the S.Koreans terror, don't you think?


No, I just wonder why your so fixated on past atrocities when there are so many contemporary ones, many committed by your country...

How can fixate on atrosities of my country if you deny any facts of atrosities of your...
If you have to say somehting interesting about it open new thread please.


Yes, well Sigmon Rhee and his successors were mostly military junta *****s, but they still built a viable country with a good economy and something that has evolved into a democracy that tolerates dissent....

There is other oppinion exist also. The USA simply isolated the N.Korea and vise varse the S.Korean got a enourmous investition from the West. If you take the example of China or Vietnam - ( the state which US let the financial investition) this states ( although they still are the COMMUNISTS) could reach even MORE resaults than the S.Korean junta in the economic rise.
So this the pure politic demagogy about "N/Koreans regime" which led to famine.


...Something more than I can say about your country.

Don't worry Nicki about my country. You better watch for yours..


And the US gov't/USAAF helped China from at least 1939-1945, and the US went to War with Japan largely because of China.

No, they didn't helped the Communists in China.
They sponsored the Gomindan who losed the civil war. So ONLY Red Army helped the China's communist to take the power. And watch to the resault.
If once the China will able to cause to fall the dollar - it will a greates show since the cold war ended.


Well, when a country with an autocratic regime controls the world, I'm sure your life will be much better. Good luck, you may look back at these times with nostalgia...

Oh yea nostalgia ...... back to the USSR La lA la ;)


Oh stop being so trite. The Soviets were there to gain combat experience against the USAF, and they were not on some humanitarian mission. You really think Stalin gave a damn about North Koreans being bombed?

Why i cann't to be the trite Nick.
The millions of americans can be the trite , bilieving that the Korean/Vietnam/Iraq slaughters was "in the mane of democraty".(And stiil some of them they continie to believe).


They provided tactical air support to, and attempted fighter air superiority for, the the N Koreans, who started the whole thing as a war of aggression...

And who forced the UN to began the offensive into the deep of N.Korean territory if they were the "victims". Don't try to tell me thay the S.Korean were not agressive nad were "better " then the communists in its relation to the civilians.


Oh, and by the way, as I have repeatedly stated, at no time were the Koreans killed by US troops "prisoners." They were never captured, nor were they in custody of US forces. They were killed at a standoff distance.
But they were killed under US officers observation.


A point you seem to miss (repeatedly).
You forgot to add Nick, "on my mind you seem to miss". Be the more modest my friend.

Cheers.

Nickdfresh
03-24-2007, 07:57 PM
Round 455............Go! ;):D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Nickdfresh/VH.jpg

Nickdfresh
03-25-2007, 03:37 PM
Rude pic removed, because I'm sober now.:)

Cojimar 1945
06-10-2012, 03:00 PM
That is a different thread, and one not easy to relate to those not experience the existential threat of nuclear holocaust during the Cold War...



Then don't speak in generalizations. Specifically, which regimes and which human rights abuses. You're going to have a very difficult time finding the equivalent to the Rape of Nanking...

My understanding is that before and during the Korean War the South Korean regime murdered many citizens suspected of leftist sympathies without any sort of due process. People suspected of being communist sympathizers were often rounded up and killed in large numbers. I believe there were a number of articles on the web in recent years about the discovery of mass graves in Korea containing remains of murdered leftists.

Nickdfresh
06-10-2012, 05:53 PM
My understanding is that before and during the Korean War the South Korean regime murdered many citizens suspected of leftist sympathies without any sort of due process. People suspected of being communist sympathizers were often rounded up and killed in large numbers. I believe there were a number of articles on the web in recent years about the discovery of mass graves in Korea containing remains of murdered leftists.

Um, have you actually ever read about the Korean War (aside from the number of articles you believe are on the web)? I don't disagree that the ROK gov't committed atrocities, but again you're lacking specifics and also ignoring the DPRK atrocities which were probably a good deal worse...

Yes, the RVN regime was a pile of corrupt stool, but again, their actions seem rather tame in relation to what took place in Nanking. Also, nether South Korea nor Vietnam ever went about invading Asia hoping for some sort of "Prosperity" zone and both regimes were saddled with wars they did not start and were guilty of the same crimes as their adversaries at worst...

Cojimar 1945
06-14-2012, 02:02 AM
I don't see how atrocities on the part of the other side provide moral justification for the action of the South Vietnamese/South Korean regimes.

Here are some links I found.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1943075,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24695113/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/thousand-koreans-executed-early-war/#.T9l8cFKJ3Pg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7567936.stm

Chevan
06-14-2012, 04:05 AM
Um, have you actually ever read about the Korean War (aside from the number of articles you believe are on the web)? I don't disagree that the ROK gov't committed atrocities, but again you're lacking specifics and also ignoring the DPRK atrocities which were probably a good deal worse...

Hardly it were worse. As states the the South Korean government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission (http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Horrors-of-South-Korea-s-mass-executions-emerge-1560892.php)

The 17 investigators of the commission's subcommittee on "mass civilian sacrifice," led by Kim, have been dealing with petitions from more than 7,000 South Koreans, involving some 1,200 alleged incidents — not just mass planned executions, but also 215 cases in which the U.S. military is accused of the indiscriminate killing of South Korean civilians in 1950-51, usually in air attacks.
The commission last year excavated sites at four of an estimated 150 mass graves around the country, recovering the remains of more than 400 people. It has officially confirmed two large-scale executions — at a warehouse in the South Korean county of Cheongwon and at Ulsan on the southeast coast.
This is just cases which lies on a surface, i.e. what thay could to collect due to rare testimonies and discovered graves.

Nickdfresh
06-14-2012, 10:05 AM
I don't see how atrocities on the part of the other side provide moral justification for the action of the South Vietnamese/South Korean regimes.

I don't know because I'm not saying they do. How do the atrocities committed by the South Korean and Vietnamese regimes justify the Imperial Japanese slaughter in China?


Here are some links I found.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1943075,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24695113/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/thousand-koreans-executed-early-war/#.T9l8cFKJ3Pg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7567936.stm

And?

Nickdfresh
06-14-2012, 10:11 AM
Hardly it were worse. As states the the South Korean government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission (http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Horrors-of-South-Korea-s-mass-executions-emerge-1560892.php)

This is just cases which lies on a surface, i.e. what thay could to collect due to rare testimonies and discovered graves.

Um, no. They were well worse. It was the North Koreans who started the war with an act of aggression that killed millions with an army that was designed for offensive mobile warfare and far more powerful than the South's. I've hardly stated that Syngman Rhee and his bastards were perfect, but please don't misquote the ROK Truth and Reconciliation Commission to justify one of the worse regimes ever to survive for more than a few years. Besides, why don't you quote the North Korean Truth and Reconciliation Commission? Did they all starve to death under a bunch of ****ing tyrants who live like they're in the capitalist west?

Chevan
06-14-2012, 02:36 PM
... please don't misquote the ROK Truth and Reconciliation Commission to justify one of the worse regimes ever to survive for more than a few years. Besides, why don't you quote the North Korean Truth and Reconciliation Commission? Did they all starve to death under a bunch of ****ing tyrants who live like they're in the capitalist west?
How exaclty the North Korean tyrants justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes commited in Southern Korea by your mind?Did the korean comission tied those murders with the N.Korean regime?

pdf27
06-14-2012, 05:40 PM
How exaclty the North Korean tyrants justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes commited in Southern Korea by your mind?Did the korean comission tied those murders with the N.Korean regime?He was responding to your comment "hardly it were worse", which I understood to be a claim that the South Koreans committed worse atrocities than the North Koreans. That's quite a claim, and requires proof - the North were generally considered to be bigger thugs. They certainly murder more dissidents today and have incomparably more in camps.

Nickdfresh
06-14-2012, 10:09 PM
How exaclty the North Korean tyrants justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes commited in Southern Korea by your mind?Did the korean comission tied those murders with the N.Korean regime?

Well, firstly the "Commission" itself is highly controversial in South Korea. If you read the Time article provided by Cojimar, you'll find extensive criticism that the Commission blurred facts of its own and ignored North Korean mass killings and simply blamed any mass graves on the ROK Army or the U.S. with little in the way of facts. Several of the victims families in fact claimed that their ancestors were killed under the North Korean occupation and not by Southern soldiers and that many of the Commissions findings are deeply flawed and biased with a political bent against the South's gov't. Secondly, you can respond to pdf's post as even killings of a few hundred, which I probably know well more about than either you or Cojimar, hardly match the vileness of the Northern regime...

Chevan
06-15-2012, 12:35 AM
He was responding to your comment "hardly it were worse", which I understood to be a claim that the South Koreans committed worse atrocities than the North Koreans.

I didn't mind to deny the crimes of N.Korean tyranny - i just pointed out that according what we saw - we have enough proves to conclude that the so called pro-democratic regime might treat OWN population on the very same manner like the worst communist dictatorship.The fact that those uhappy "suspected leftists" were murdered , as implys, in revenge to evil communists - makes the both regimes ( inspite of their ideological diffirences)have to use the same practice of elimination of political opponents.


That's quite a claim, and requires proof - the North were generally considered to be bigger thugs. They certainly murder more dissidents today and have incomparably more in camps.
The generally considered a bigger thugs coz they are YOURs political enemies.The murder of dissidents by the autocratic regimes , friendly to USA, were never a serious trouble when they were needed in COld war.In Mexica where a sort of "pro-american democraty" the political opponent simply "dissapeares" . Even the states with regime of racial apartheid like in South Africa for a decades considered as "demiocratic ally" agains bigger thugs.It just a political speculation by terms.For the peoples who are killed becouse of their political view - there is no difference which sort regime execute the crime- democratic or tyranny. The resualt the same.

Chevan
06-15-2012, 01:04 AM
Well, firstly the "Commission" itself is highly controversial in South Korea. If you read the Time article provided by Cojimar, you'll find extensive criticism that the Commission blurred facts of its own and ignored North Korean mass killings and simply blamed any mass graves on the ROK Army or the U.S. with little in the way of facts.

Even if the part of victims were from a hand of fierce communists - we have the photos , declassified by US Army , testify that the mass execution occur under S.korean regime.So the critics of commission can't deny the fact of war crime.Besides the Time's criticism is also rater controversal itself - the Comissin also blamed the US troops to be involving of killing of civils. The political antagonism is obvious- but who claims the american troop could't kill the civils, even accidentally (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pakistan-us-drone-kills-10-suspected-militants-16484412#.T9q-GxdLaWg)?


Several of the victims families in fact claimed that their ancestors were killed under the North Korean occupation and not by Southern soldiers and that many of the Commissions findings are deeply flawed and biased with a political bent against the South's gov't.

Probably they biased against SK regime. But is there a democraty or what? Why shell koreans ignore the atrocities of own govenment just basing on controversal political affirms that the NK "made a worse" crimes? In USA as i remember the president has been attacked by political opponents for sexual scandal.When Times seems to me try to cover the war crime against civils of politically friendly regime.


Secondly, you can respond to pdf's post as even killings of a few hundred, which I probably know well more about than either you or Cojimar, hardly match the vileness of the Northern regime...
It depend on how to watch. The methods of murder were the same , the scale of violence is controversal in both states. What migh we to know about NK regime INSIDE?Almost nothing. SO haw can you compare the vileness, not using the ideological stamps ?

Cojimar 1945
06-15-2012, 01:32 AM
If a country is providing support for a group that engages in terrible atrocities and the country supporting the group is aware of the atrocities yet continues to support them it seems to me that they bear some degree of guilt for the actions that took place.

If Americans knew about the atrocities being committed by the South Koreans don't you think they had a moral obligation to try to intervene and put a stop to what was happening? That seems like a far better option than merely ignoring what was happening or actively trying to cover up the events.

JR*
06-15-2012, 05:50 AM
The South Korean government at the time of the Korean War was certainly not a cathedral choir school; and the US attitude to it is open to the characterisation that it constituted a (perfectly understandable) case of supporting "our bastards". Also, while I am not greatly attracted by the practice of trading atrocities in search of justification, I do find it difficult to place anything falling at the door of the South Koreans on the same scale as the ongoing horror of the "Communist" Kim dynasty of North Korea, with its record of aggression and near-incredible economic mismanagement - not to mention the little matter of human rights (including the right to eat).

For some reason this thread reminds me of a scene from the US comedy series, MASH, with which I am sure most of us are familiar. The hospital clerk, "Radar" O'Reilly is paying his usual visit to the blood-soaked operating tent to deliver the latest news. One item on this day - "News from Seoul. Syngman Rhee has been re-elected dictator ...". Sometimes you have to laugh. Otherwise, you would never stop crying ...

Best regards, JR.

Nickdfresh
06-15-2012, 10:09 AM
I didn't mind to deny the crimes of N.Korean tyranny - i just pointed out that according what we saw - we have enough proves to conclude that the so called pro-democratic regime might treat OWN population on the very same manner like the worst communist dictatorship.The fact that those uhappy "suspected leftists" were murdered , as implys, in revenge to evil communists - makes the both regimes ( inspite of their ideological diffirences)have to use the same practice of elimination of political opponents.

Nobody contends that South Korea was a truly democratic state in this period. It was a police state but also one must account for the fact that it was under a national emergency and an invasion/civil war it did not start...

n

Nickdfresh
06-15-2012, 10:30 AM
Even if the part of victims were from a hand of fierce communists - we have the photos , declassified by US Army , testify that the mass execution occur under S.korean regime.So the critics of commission can't deny the fact of war crime.Besides the Time's criticism is also rater controversal itself - the Comissin also blamed the US troops to be involving of killing of civils. The political antagonism is obvious- but who claims the american troop could't kill the civils, even accidentally (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pakistan-us-drone-kills-10-suspected-militants-16484412#.T9q-GxdLaWg)?

Probably they biased against SK regime. But is there a democraty or what? Why shell koreans ignore the atrocities of own govenment just basing on controversal political affirms that the NK "made a worse" crimes? In USA as i remember the president has been attacked by political opponents for sexual scandal.When Times seems to me try to cover the war crime against civils of politically friendly regime.

Nobody is contending that the ROK/South Korean Army did not commit atrocities, they certainly did! In fact, they were fighting a bitter counterinsurgency campaign prior to the invasion of the North. But when the Commission becomes rather obtuse in its use of facts, then it loses credibility. We're also well aware of incidents such as the No Gun Ri massacre, you (unknowingly) started a thread on it. We're just running in the circles we did five years ago on this... (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?4327-Massacre-in-Korea)

And do we really need links on Predator Drone strikes? Can we keep somewhat on topic?


It depend on how to watch. The methods of murder were the same , the scale of violence is controversal in both states. What migh we to know about NK regime INSIDE?Almost nothing. SO haw can you compare the vileness, not using the ideological stamps ?

So, basically we should criticize only open states that have become democracies, have free presses, and admit their past wrong doings while giving one of the main actors in this period a free pass because they restrict everything?

Nickdfresh
06-15-2012, 10:33 AM
If a country is providing support for a group that engages in terrible atrocities and the country supporting the group is aware of the atrocities yet continues to support them it seems to me that they bear some degree of guilt for the actions that took place.

If Americans knew about the atrocities being committed by the South Koreans don't you think they had a moral obligation to try to intervene and put a stop to what was happening? That seems like a far better option than merely ignoring what was happening or actively trying to cover up the events.

You need to read more on the conflict, because you clearly do not understand the context of how all this took place. There was no central control of "atrocities." There probably wasn't any real time knowledge of them as at the time the U.S. Army was just struggling with not being defeated and driven out of the peninsula in some sort of Dunkirk...

I suggest The Korean War (http://www.amazon.com/The-Korean-War-Max-Hastings/dp/067166834X) by Max Hastings. It's a very good, non-American account of the war that pulls no punches and is critical of the U.S. Army...

Chevan
06-17-2012, 10:36 AM
We're just running in the circles we did five years ago on this... (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?4327-Massacre-in-Korea)
Oh Nick,you have found it. Thanks , so much of nostalgia...
"Russian terrorist forces"- do you remember our youth?:)Seems you wished to kill me just firve years back..So much changes for such a little time..


And do we really need links on Predator Drone strikes? Can we keep somewhat on topic?

And what was the topic, i've forgot? Oh yeah, the firebombings. So how do you think is the drone capable to create a little firestorm?;)


So, basically we should criticize only open states that have become democracies, have free presses, and admit their past wrong doings while giving one of the main actors in this period a free pass because they restrict everything?
Yes but what sense to admit someone his past was wrong if he still justifies his nasty actions by the speculative conception and ideological stamps kinda he belong to the "good right side" so every means of war are permissible "? And how actually the "free press" doing if the politically dirty theme of murder of civils in S.Korea was banned for a decades untill the most recent time?

Cojimar 1945
06-17-2012, 11:02 AM
The Associated Press article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24695113/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/thousand-koreans-executed-early-war/#.T93vaVKJ3Ph indicates that American military personnel were present for some of the massacres in 1950. American military reports on the atrocities are mentioned and these might contain more information on what took place.

Nickdfresh
06-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Oh Nick,you have found it. Thanks , so much of nostalgia...
"Russian terrorist forces"- do you remember our youth?:)Seems you wished to kill me just firve years back..So much changes for such a little time..

Yes. :) I wanted to poison your vodka, but your physical constitution was far too strong for it! ;)


And what was the topic, i've forgot? Oh yeah, the firebombings. So how do you think is the drone capable to create a little firestorm?;)

A bit, but they are far more precise...


Yes but what sense to admit someone his past was wrong if he still justifies his nasty actions by the speculative conception and ideological stamps kinda he belong to the "good right side" so every means of war are permissible "? And how actually the "free press" doing if the politically dirty theme of murder of civils in S.Korea was banned for a decades untill the most recent time?

They killings were common knowledge, and I've criticized the South Korean gov't here as well and said they were initially not democratic and reforms only really began to take hold in the late 1970s-80s...

Nickdfresh
06-17-2012, 11:24 AM
The Associated Press article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24695113/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/thousand-koreans-executed-early-war/#.T93vaVKJ3Ph indicates that American military personnel were present for some of the massacres in 1950. American military reports on the atrocities are mentioned and these might contain more information on what took place.

Um, yes, read the link to the other thread (where this is all going). There are several links to the original AP story and resulting Pentagon investigation which minimized the tragedy/massacre....

Chevan
06-17-2012, 11:38 AM
I do find it difficult to place anything falling at the door of the South Koreans on the same scale as the ongoing horror of the "Communist" Kim dynasty of North Korea, with its record of aggression and near-incredible economic mismanagement - not to mention the little matter of human rights (including the right to eat).

Yes the right for food is the primary one. But who bet this may happend only in Korea?
In the Phillipines up to 15% of population have nothign to eat (http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/217/46127.html).
According the Feeding america (http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/hunger-and-poverty-statistics.aspx)

n 2010, 48.8 million Americans lived in food insecure households, 32.6 million adults and 16.2 million children.
In 2010, 14.5 percent of households (17.2 million households) were food insecure.
In 2010, 5.4 percent of households (6.4 million households) experienced very low food security.
In 2010, households with children reported food insecurity at a significantly higher rate than those without children, 20.2 percent compared to 11.7 percent
Almost 50 mln of Americans have a problems with food supply. This is in the most, as supposed,richest country of world. Whose economical management is portrayed as most professional one. Doesn't look it strange that domestic politicans tied the hunger in Korea with political regime and mamagement?

Nickdfresh
06-17-2012, 11:42 AM
Um, Chevan. I've read reports of emaciated corpses lying in North Korean streets for hours before being picked up. It's not the same. I agree there are problems with the way things are and with food supplies overall, but there are programs and charities here in the U.S. which prevent any sort of mass starvation. It's a faulty logical comparison. And the United States hasn't been in the Philippines for over 20 years IIRC....


The North Korean famine, known as the Arduous March (Chosŏn'gŭl: 고난의 행군) in North Korea, was a famine that occurred in North Korea from 1994 to 1998.[5] Estimates of the death toll vary widely. Out of a total population of approximately 22 million, somewhere between 800,000 and 3,500,000 people died from starvation or hunger-related illnesses, with the deaths peaking in 1997.[6]

From: Wikipedia North Korean Famine entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine)

Chevan
06-17-2012, 11:52 AM
Yes. :) I wanted to poison your vodka, but your physical constitution was far too strong for it! ;)

Next time choose an another type of poison for racial russian. I drink vodka from my birth ;)


A bit, but they are far more precise...

Still not so precise to hit the enemy instead if allies:)

Chevan
06-17-2012, 12:20 PM
I've read reports of emaciated corpses lying in North Korean streets for hours before being picked up. It's not the same. I agree there are problems with the way things are and with food supplies overall, but there are programs and charities here in the U.S. which prevent any sort of mass starvation.

You escape the starvation coz the USA is not in economical blocade and can free import the food. In percentage the american budget spends for feeding of poorest( social programs) even less then Korea.


And the United States hasn't been in the Philippines for over 20 years IIRC....

I use the phillipines not coz there were the USA. There a a lot of places around the globe even with the pro-democratice regimes when the famine is a serious threat .

JR*
06-25-2012, 05:11 AM
The (North) Korean People's Army crossed the 38th Parallel into South Korean territory - initiating the Korean War - on 25 June, 1950, 62 years ago today. Best regards, JR.

Chevan
06-26-2012, 12:56 PM
Yeah, hardly they suspected in 1950 how many states will be involved into that war of korean henocide.

Cojimar 1945
10-27-2012, 03:35 PM
I apologize for not replying more quickly. Don't people feel that the U.S. and other countries aiding the South Koreans had a moral obligation to pressure them to stop massacres of leftists/suspected communist sympathizers/etc. I would think that the countries helping the South Koreans would have been in a position to pressure them to change some of their more outrageous behaviors.

Cojimar 1945
10-27-2012, 03:41 PM
Do people have any opinions as to how much the American public knew about the villainy of the South Koreans? I would have guessed that the public might have been very disenchanted with many of the things the South Koreans were doing and might have demanded the government stop providing them with aid.

Nickdfresh
10-27-2012, 04:31 PM
I apologize for not replying more quickly. Don't people feel that the U.S. and other countries aiding the South Koreans had a moral obligation to pressure them to stop massacres of leftists/suspected communist sympathizers/etc. I would think that the countries helping the South Koreans would have been in a position to pressure them to change some of their more outrageous behaviors.

Ideally, yes. But rapid advances creating chaotic situations where one side is completely outgunned are hardly conducive to well-thought out policies, nor do I think there was much real time reporting focusing on the actions of individual police and military units carrying out shootings while in full retreat as it was assumed--correctly--that the North Koreans were also conducting their own massacres. I think the U.S. was more concerned about preventing a massacre of the members of a sovereign gov't and its supporters being overrun by an aggressor. The U.S. and U.N. did have a very tenuous relationship with ROK leader Syngmon Rhee by the end of the war, and much of it was over his policies in general and his wish to continue the war...


Do people have any opinions as to how much the American public knew about the villainy of the South Koreans? I would have guessed that the public might have been very disenchanted with many of the things the South Koreans were doing and might have demanded the government stop providing them with aid.

"Villainy" of which "South Koreans?" Were they all villains? Were they anymore villains than Poles, who were also the victims of an aggressive war? Incidentally, it's often stated that few Americans could have even found Korea on a map in 1950! The Soviet Union and China had no problem supporting sociopathic "villains" in North Korea, to the extent they armed them and created their ability to offensively launch wars of aggression whereas the South was largely armed with very light weapons and mainly comprised to fight guerrillas...

muscogeemike
10-29-2012, 10:06 AM
It might help put Picasso’s work in perspective - at the time of the Korean War he was a staunch Communist. He would have been influenced by Communist Propaganda and the N. Koreans were Communist. It would be normal for him to be anti US and use his work to reflect his feelings.

There are “protest” groups that base their “releases” entirely on N. Korean Propaganda and their antithesis towards Governments, especially the US Government. This was true of the VN War also.

It has been 20yrs since I was active in intelligence matters on the Korean Peninsula but as there are many examples of what the N. Koreans put out in their Korean War museum. The tour guide tells all people that American Soldiers, as a matter of routine, cut the fetus out of pregnant women an ate them!

This is only one example of what the N. Korean people are taught about the US and the rest of the world.
N. Koreans believe this bull because they have no other source of information, these “Protest Groups” believe it because they want to and it fits their agenda (and, of course, they are fools).

Political (and Religious) groups here in the US use the same tactics - and people believe what they want and they are too laze to actually research an issue. It is much easier to let someone else tell you what you want to hear.

Nickdfresh
10-29-2012, 12:00 PM
I have no idea as to whether Picasso was a communist or not, but there is communist propaganda, and there are real massacres. The Bodo League Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre) was indeed a real event and the extrajudicial killings were indeed ordered by South Korean President Syngman Rhee. That is not from communist sources, but is verified by members of the U.S. military and diplomats as well as a sort of "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" of sorts in South Korea. I think the only real contentions were the numbers killed and whether the remains of victims found were only killed by the ROK forces, or if there are also victims of later communist massacres conducted under North Korean occupation that have been mistakenly or purposely lumped into the death toll...

Nickdfresh
10-29-2012, 12:18 PM
I apologize for not replying more quickly. Don't people feel that the U.S. and other countries aiding the South Koreans had a moral obligation to pressure them to stop massacres of leftists/suspected communist sympathizers/etc. I would think that the countries helping the South Koreans would have been in a position to pressure them to change some of their more outrageous behaviors.

Perhaps if you had replied sooner, you would have seen that you asked this very question already albeit with slightly different wording.

I would like to ask a question as well; to everyone who has replied to this thread: Would you prefer to live in The Democratic Peoples' Republic of (North) Korea or the Republic of (South) Korea?

Cojimar 1945
02-05-2013, 10:57 PM
It seems to me that the best course of action might have been to demand that the atrocities stop if the South Koreans were to continue receiving aid from the United States. Perhaps they could have made it clear that if they were going to continue such activities the U.S. had a moral obligation to at least not provide them with support.

Chevan
02-12-2013, 08:39 AM
I would like to ask a question as well; to everyone who has replied to this thread: Would you prefer to live in The Democratic Peoples' Republic of (North) Korea or the Republic of (South) Korea?
Is this political choice- i would prefer to live in rising nationalistic Vietnam or China then in corrupt and occuped by US military, puppet regime of so called Repablic of Korea ( aka "democratic").

Chevan
02-12-2013, 09:06 AM
I think the next article might be interesting..
http://www.iacenter.org/Koreafiles/ktc-civilnetwork.htm


Statistics on Crimes Committed
by US Troops in south Korea


Civil Network for a Peaceful Korea

Over 100,000 Cases of Crimes, Over 100,000 Victims

Crimes committed by US soldiers were found as early as when US troops were first stationed in south Korea. According to the south Korean government's official statistics, 50,082 crimes were committed by US soldiers from 1967 to 1998 (including those by soldiers' families), and 56,904 US soldiers were involved (including soldiers' families) in these crimes. The statistics imply that the actual figure may be higher if take into account those cases not handled by the south Korean police. Based on the statistics, the total number of crimes committed by US soldiers since September 8, 1945 (when they were first stationed in Korea) is estimated to be around 100,000. Unfortunately the south Korean government does not have statistics on US soldiers' crimes committed before 1967, because SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) went into effect in 1967, allowing the south Korean court jurisdiction over crimes committed by US soldiers with narrow and limited application.

So, from 1945 to 1967, the US had full authority in court. south Koreans were even subjected to American rulings (of course, in English language). And during 1945-1948, when the US military government took control over the south Korean government, a judge was an active US soldier, with no jury system although the court followed American court system. Many problems aroused including language barrier, lack of cultural understanding and even prejudice on the part of the judge, unfair practices on the part of interpreters.

Study by Ministry of Justice of south Korea shows that among the 39,452 cases (45,183 US soldiers involved) of crimes committed by US soldiers from 1967 to 1987, south Korea was able to exercise its jurisdiction only in 234 cases, punishing only 351 US soldiers. Among them, 84 US soldiers were convicted of rape and 89 US soldiers were convicted of murder and robbery. Taking into account the fact that rape cases were more common before 1967, and that many rape cases were intentionally hidden and forgotten, the actual number of rape cases committed by US soldiers will be much higher than what official figures suggest.

1980, the year of civilian uprising in Kwangju alone, over 1,679 crimes committed by US soldiers were reported.

Due to the military dictator, Chun Doo Hwan’s martial law at the time, south Korea lost its jurisdiction that year. Not even a single case was handled in south Korean court.

Countless cases of rape were committed by US soldiers, including a woman gang raped by 4 soldiers' in March 1946, a 14-year-old schoolgirl raped in 1956, a daughter and a mother both raped in 1967, a woman raped by 8 soldiers in the mountains in 1971, a month pregnant teacher raped in 1986 by 5 soldiers in the middle of Team Spirit military exercise, a handicapped schoolgirl sexually harassed in 1996, and a 6-year-old girl sexually harassed in May 1997.

Gregory Henderson, who served at the US embassy in Seoul in the 1950s and 1960s, recalls in his thesis 'politically dangerous factors in US troops exercising operation & control right in Korea':

" ... Every US soldier from officer down enjoys material indulgence in Korea. Material indulgence includes abundant supply of fresh bodies of young local women."

Earnst W. Carston, a former chaplain in US military camp in Korea, also harshly criticized US soldiers in his report to the US government in October 1964: "90% of US soldiers in Korea lead immoral sex lives. On being stationed to their posts, a soldier indulges in illegal sex with prostitutes, and when returning to the US, he sells off the woman, her house, and furniture to the new arrival".

<The Korea Times>, in its June 10th 1971 edition, quoted a high-ranking military officer as saying "around 2 million foreign soldiers stayed in south Korea since the Korean war, among which 70% were venereal diseases patients as well as drug addicts".

Robert Oliver, an American adviser to former south Korean President Rhee Seong-man, once said that 2,000 US soldiers out of total 30,000 stationed in Korea were from poor class. Also, Kevin Heldman, an American freelancer writer, wrote on the Internet in September 1997 that US troops in Korea are potential criminals and losers had they stayed in the US society.

Although above comments seem to lay a blame on those less-educated soldiers from poor family background for the crimes, the crime report shows that it is the officers who are very often commit rape and robbery by faking marriages before secretly returning to the US. There is no official statistics on fake marriages, mainly because victims do not want it reported.

Long Over Stay of US Troops and Their Operation & Control Rights over south Korean military

The first 3-year history of US military government control in south Korea was not based on a mutual friendship between peoples of the two countries. Rather it was based on a cozy relationship between the two governments. Such circumstances have not changed much since then. For example, US military that withdrew after 3 years of government control in south Korea came back during the Korean war to 'take away' operation & control rights from the south Korean army on July 15th 1950. In October 1953, immediately after the war, the US introduced Korea-US Defense Alliance Treaty, which allowed long-term stay of the US troops in south Korea. This treaty effectively gave the US a virtual full control over the south Korea’s political, military, and economic power.

In the light of such lopsided treaty which practically handed over a nation’s sovereign rights and the eventual political, military and economical subjugation to US mighty power, it becomes easy to see why such US soldiers crimes are committed easily in south Korea.

No other place in the world, does the US soldiers enjoy such immunity over the crimes they perpetuate.

I t is reported that US troops stationed in Okinawa, Japan, called the local prostitutes 'Yellow Stool'. It is not only humiliating to Japan, but also to Korea as well. Such word is a good indicator of how US soldiers look at the local people.

Even to these days, when they are subjected to south Korean police investigation, US soldiers frequently say "how dare you Koreans treat an American soldier like this’.

Their debased superiority often comes from the years long of propaganda from US and south Korean governments asserting that it is the US, liberated south Korea from the hands of communist north Korea and without them, north Korea will invade the south Korea right away.

Moreover, the unique military arrangement in which the visiting force, the US controls the operational command over the south Korean military and it’s own general serving as a Joint Chief of Staff of the combined army, only exacerbates the unfair situation.

Although many of the past US Secretaries of Defense have repeatedly stated that it is US’s own interest to have the soldiers stationed in south Korea, and that US troops will remain in south Korea even after the reunification of Korea, many US soldiers still believe that they are in south Korea to fight the cold war.

On sex slavery issue, a Dutch military court in 1946 convicted those who were responsible for rape against minority women. Also in 1995, when three US soldiers gang raped a schoolgirl in Okinawa, Japan, local residents demanded and received an official apology from US President Bill Clinton, US ambassador to Japan, and US military chief. All these are unimaginable in south Korea.

Such stark difference between situations in south Korea, Japan and the Netherlands illustrates international power structure among the nations.

Statistics from south Korean government shows visible drop in the number of crimes committed by US soldiers, from 1967 to 1991, 1,100 - 2,300 crimes were committed per year and from 1992, the number dropped to 700-800 cases per year.

Such improvement was possible because of high-profile murder case of Yoon Kum-i by US soldier Kenneth Markle in October 1992. The cold blooded torture/murder case brought public conscience to the "crimes committed by US troops". The Movement to Eradicate Crimes Committed by US Soldiers was formed as a result.

However, the south Korean government still exercises very limited jurisdiction over such crimes.

In 1998, Korea handled only 3.9% of all crimes committed by US soldiers.(and 24.6% of crimes by soldiers' families)


This views are probably differ from what you usially see on TV

Nickdfresh
02-12-2013, 09:18 AM
Is this political choice- i would prefer to live in rising nationalistic Vietnam or China then in corrupt and occuped by US military, puppet regime of so called Repablic of Korea ( aka "democratic").

LOL No you wouldn't... :)

You like slave labor?

Chevan
02-12-2013, 12:17 PM
LOL No you wouldn't... :)

You like slave labor?
Lol, i though you like the slave labor?
No?


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1701
For hundreds of years, Mexican immigrants have been coming to the United States in order to find work. Agriculture has been a main venue for these workers. They come Stateside when the crops come in, and often move from state to state as each plant is ready to harvest. For this reason they are called migrant workers. "Migrant farm workers travel north during the growing season, following the crops, or travel back and forth from home bases in Florida, Texas, California, and Mexico."
Not only do migrant workers face innumerable hardships such as low wages, unacceptable housing, and lack of health care, yet to make matters worse, Mexican farm laborers are faced with the complete lack of regard of their lives as human beings. Day after day, the laborers are forced to work in conditions that put their lives in peril. Farm workers spend hour after hour in immediate contact with crops that have been profusely sprayed with pesticides
Seem it isn't popular theme on Zombie-TV which so care about "slavery in communist world?", or i'm wrong


Mexican victims of sex trafficking often appear in the United States either as prostitutes or as bargirls in cantinas. In high volume brothels, according to the State Department, these women and children are forced to service from 10 to 40 clients each day and are extremely vulnerable to sexually transmitted diseases and excessive physical violence. While prostitution is illegal in most of the United States, “cantinas” — restaurants and bars where clients watch, grope and, on occasion, have sexual encounters with the young victims — are legal and lucrative businesses.

On November 25, Brooklyn police discovered a sex trafficking ring and found a young Mexican woman who had been forced into prostitution and the buried remains of her two month-old son. The brothel owners, illegal immigrants from Mexico themselves, face criminal charges for sex trafficking in the Brooklyn Federal Court. Domingo Salazar, the man accused of organizing the woman’s capture, allegedly traveled to Mexico, impregnated the young woman and smuggled her back to the United States. Coyotes, or traffickers, intentionally try to impregnate young women because they will be less likely to return home bearing an illegitimate child. This act of coercion is unfortunately a common factor in trafficking Mexican women into brothels in the U.S.
Time to grow up and look around, my friend. The man's misery and slavery IS around you...
Now good to compare.From Wiki..

According to a forecast by the PricewaterhouseCoopers in 2008, Vietnam may be the fastest growing of emerging economies by 2025, with a potential annual growth rate of about 10% in real dollar terms, which would increase the size of the economy to 70% of the size of the UK economy by 2050
The little country without resources like idiotic russia , is going to commit the economic mirracle.Just by his own will and hands.What a people!!I would be proud to be one of them..

tankgeezer
02-12-2013, 08:32 PM
Chevan old Pal, N. Korea is not a garden spot, but if you like, you might be able to spend a summer there, see the place as it is, and then tell us all about it. Sounds like quite an adventure. My feeling is that you should do it soon, if through technical, or political ineptitude, N. Korea may come to be known as "that big hole next to China".

Nickdfresh
02-13-2013, 07:57 AM
Lol, i though you like the slave labor?
No?

Seem it isn't popular theme on Zombie-TV which so care about "slavery in communist world?", or i'm wrong

Time to grow up and look around, my friend. The man's misery and slavery IS around you...
Now good to compare.From Wiki..

The little country without resources like idiotic russia , is going to commit the economic mirracle.Just by his own will and hands.What a people!!I would be proud to be one of them..

Chevan, what does a Mexican sex trafficking ring have to do with it?

The question was would you rather live in North or South Korea? Vietnam (which killed at least 250,000 of its citizens in concentration camps after the North conquered the Republic of Vietnam in 1975) and China (which murdered a good number of its people during the Cultural Revolution) were not options. Speaking of illegal immigration, I believe a large number of North Koreans are in China as undocumented workers. Where are the Southerners fleeing too? Oh, wait! They have a strong, industrialized economy with democratic elections and no famines...

So, I take it you would rather live in the South...

Right!