Bell P-39 Airacobra & P-63 Kingcobra.

[Chevan]

I think the best US fighter in conditions of Eastern front was the P-39 AiraCobra.
This was the mass supplied fighter to the USSR via the lend lise.
http://www.airpages.ru/img/p39.jpg
Having the 37-mm gun(!!!) and two 12,7 mashingan this aircraft was good in the role of shturmovic agains german armoured veshicles.Soviet flyers recal this fighter as very reliabile.
Cheers.

[Digger]

Is it true the P-39 was called Little Shaver by Soviet crews? Shaving being the slang term for ground strafing? I'm not sure if my source is correct with this information.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

I think the best US fighter in conditions of Eastern front was the P-39 AiraCobra


The Cobra was an special case...hated by the british and americands , but so loved for the russians. :neutral:

http://i10.tinypic.com/2lbym8w.jpg

[Digger]

Yes the P-39 was not very popular with the RAAF as well.

Regards Digger

[VonWeyer]

Why wasn't it popular?

[Chevan]

The Cobra was an special case...hated by the british and americands , but so loved for the russians. :neutral:



Yes Panzerknacker it's true. First AiraCobra in 1941 were sended as lend lise to the Britain but british dislike it and re-sended to the USSR in late of 1941.
First AiraCobra were had a lot of lacks. But spesial soviet-american comission ( including the agent of Bell plant) during the all the war inproved the construction of P-39.
The resault was good. Some soviet pilots prefered P-39 for the other fighters.
Like famouse soviet ace A. Pokrishkin ( 59-voctories at all , 48 on the P-39).

[Panzerknacker]

Why wasn't it popular?

They did not like some tricky fliying characteritics and the lack of more powerful supercharged witch limitated the ceiling.

Chevan this is the aircraft of that famous ace.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/pokri1.jpg

[George Eller]

-

P-39 Airacobra and P-63 Kingcobra

4,773 P-39's (primarily D, N & Q models) and over
2,400 P-63's were supplied to the USSR during WWII.

The P-63 had superior performance to the earlier P-39.

P-39M: maximum speed: 386 mph (621 km/h) at 9,500 ft (2,895 m)
service ceiling: 36,000 ft (10,970 m)
maximum range: 650 miles (1,046 km)

P-63A: maximum speed: 410 mph (660 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
service ceiling: 43,000 ft (13,110 m)
maximum range: 2,200 miles (3,541 km) with external fuel tanks.

From: American Aircraft of World War II, David Mondey, Chancellor Press, 1999, pp 12-14, 17-19
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3879/p39airacobra01bi8.jpg

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9923/p39airacobra02bi8.jpg

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/8851/p39airacobra03bs7.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/65/p63kingcobra01qr2.jpg

(CONTINUED BELOW)

-

[George Eller]

-

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)
02
From: American Aircraft of World War II, David Mondey, Chancellor Press, 1999, pp 12-14, 17-19
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/4913/p63kingcobra02vp8.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8805/p63kingcobra03tq8.jpg

From: Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific, Eric M. Bergerud, Westview Press, 2000, pp 247 - 250
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/1343/p39airacobra04np7.jpg

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/5880/p39airacobra05hz1.jpg

(CONTINUED BELOW)

-

[George Eller]

-

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)
03
From: Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific, Eric M. Bergerud, Westview Press, 2000, pp 247 - 250
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5327/p39airacobra06jz0.jpg

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/9599/p39airacobra07ik9.jpg

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/war/fighter/p39/p39_p63.jpg
http://www.military.cz/usa/air/war/fighter/p39/p39_en.htm

http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/07/28/birds/p632.jpg
http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/07/28/birds/

SEE ALSO:
P-39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-39_Airacobra
http://www.warbirdalley.com/p39.htm

P-63
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-63_Kingcobra
http://www.warbirdalley.com/p63.htm

Airacobra or Iron Dog?
The Obscure Career of Bell's P-39 in the Soviet Union
http://www.chuckhawks.com/airacobra_iron_dog.htm
"Five out of the ten highest scoring Soviets aces logged the majority of their kills in P-39s.
In fact, P-39 jockeys filled the number two, three, and four spots: Aleksandr Pokryshkin (59),
Aleksandr Gulaev (57), and Grigoriy Rechkalov (56)."

Airacobras in the Soviet Union
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_19.html

History in Blue: P-63 Kingcobra served under Russia’s red star
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292308-1683581.php

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[Panzerknacker]

Very good, notable the performance of the P-39 in the pacific despite the bad attitude of some pilots against it. Another good book about it is "P-39 aces of WW2" from Ospreys.

The 37 mm odsmobile M4 cannon in the P-39Q.

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/images/p39gun.jpg


This was and long recoil operated gun it shoot at 150 rpm and was feeded by a 33 round endless belt. Now I am tempted to open another aircraft armamento topic.

[George Eller]

Very good, notable the performance of the P-39 in the pacific despite the bad attitude of some pilots against it. Another good book about it is "P-39 aces of WW2" from Ospreys.

The 37 mm odsmobile M4 cannon in the P-39Q.

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/images/p39gun.jpg


This was and long recoil operated gun it shoot at 150 rpm and was feeded by a 33 round endless belt. Now I am tempted to open another aircraft armamento topic.
-

I like that pic Panzerknacker. It gives a clearer picture of how much off center the drive shaft was from the centerline of the propeller hub. And also the gun arrangement is interesting. Thanks.

I wonder how accurate the following quotes are?


http://www.chuckhawks.com/airacobra_iron_dog.htm
The last major misconception about the P-39 is that it was an effective tank buster. In early August of 1944, while flying over a tank battle in Poland, Alexsandr Pokryshkin told the T-34 unit commander, "Our cannons will not penetrate tank armor." The Colt M4 had a muzzle velocity of only 600 meters per second and a low rating of 1.41 kilograms 'steel on target' per second. Theoretically, it could penetrate the armor of early panzer tanks, but only the top of the hull and turret. By comparison, the NS-37 37mm cannon had a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s and a steel on target rating of 3.06kg, enough to get through all but the Tiger's side or front armor. Also, instead of the M80 AP rounds that were required, the U.S. shipped the Soviets M54 high explosive shells, which were ineffective against tanks. Therefore, the P-39 was not used as a tank destroyer on the Eastern Front.


http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_19.html
It is in Soviet service that the Airacobra was used to its best effect. Soviet Air Force military doctrine was that its primary mission was to support the ground operations of the Soviet Army, and the P-39 was a natural for this role since it had an excellent low altitude performance and was heavily armed. Contrary to many published reports, the Soviet Airacobra was not primarily used as a ground-attack aircraft and tank buster, although it is certainly true that it often strafed targets of opportunity. It was actually primarily used as a low-altitude escort fighter for ground attack aircraft such as the Il-2 and later the Il-10.

...The Soviets preferred the 20-mm Hispano cannon of the P-400 over the 37mm of other Airacobra variants because of its greater reliability. In addition, the trajectory of the shells from the 20-mm cannon more closely matched that of the 0.50-inch guns, making for a greater concentration of fire. In the P-39Q, the Soviets usually removed the underwing guns or had them removed at the factory, preferring a better performance over the enhanced firepower.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-39_Airacobra
It is mistakenly believed that the Airacobra was used as a ground-attack aircraft by the Soviet Union, the lack of a turbo-supercharger restricting it to low-altitude combat. In fact, the Soviets used it to provide top cover. The tactical environment of the Eastern Front did not demand the extreme high-altitude operations that the RAF and USAAF employed with their big bombers. In the relatively low-altitude operations in the East, the lack of a turbocharger was not as great a handicap. The low-speed, low-altitude turning nature of most air combat on the Russian Front suited the P-39's strengths rather than its inherent weaknesses. The second-highest scoring Allied ace, Pokryshkin, flew the P-39 from late 1942 until the end of the war; his unofficial score in the Airacobra stands at nearly 60 Luftwaffe aircraft.

-

[Panzerknacker]

The first quote is probably truu, the soviets have more efficient tank killers like the IL-2, the others need some analisis but unfortunately I have no time right now. :evil:

[Chevan]

Thanks guys for the good detailed staff and pictures about AiraCobra.
I just have to add something touching the modernisation of P-39 according USSR demands.

P -39Q became the following modification Of "AiraCobra", which followed after P -39N. after the delivery of production aircraft P -39 in THE USSR, firm "Bell" from the Soviet AIR FORCE entered proposals on an improvement in the construction of aircraft. As it proved to be, in destroyers P -39 during the sharp maneuvering appeared the deformations of skin on the aft fuselage section and the tail assembly, which in the majority the cases could not be restored. Were observed also the breakdowns in spar of horizontal stabilizers, collapsing and catastrophes. To the modification Of "AiraCobra" were connected the designers of firm "Bell" and the largest center of Soviet aviation science at that time - the central aerohydrodynamic state institute of the name N.E. of Zhukovskiy (TSAGI - CENTRAL INSTITUTE OF AEROHYDRODYNAMICS IM. N YE ZHUKOVSKIY) and NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE of Red Air force. As a result of the carried out tests it was established that the American stress standards proved to be noncorresponding of the requirement AF OF THE USSR. On the basis of the conducted in TSAGI - CENTRAL INSTITUTE OF AEROHYDRODYNAMICS IM. N YE ZHUKOVSKIY investigations the specialists of central scientific experimental base VVS developed measures for strengthening and changing the construction of the supplied aircraft P -39. as a result was developed the following modification Of "AiraCobra" - P -39Q (series P -39Q-1 and P -39Q-5). This modification was differed from previous in terms of the intensive fuselage and the armament, which now consisted of one 37- mm gun T9, two 12,7- mm of machine guns and two 12,7- mm of machine guns Browning, established in the wing. General fuel stock was 416 l. in all was released the order of 1100 aircraft of this modification.

Advantages:
One of the best series tactical fighters World War II, which possesses high technical flight characteristics. Improved aerodynamics. High maneuverability and strong armament. Increased vitality of machine. Simplicity, accessibility and convenience in control.

Deficiencies:
Although the decreased, still preservable tendency toward the dumping into the corkscrew with the high angles of attack.


Now about George Eller's quotes:

It is mistakenly believed that the Airacobra was used as a ground-attack aircraft by the Soviet Union, the lack of a turbo-supercharger restricting it to low-altitude combat. In fact, the Soviets used it to provide top cover. The tactical environment of the Eastern Front did not demand the extreme high-altitude operations that the RAF and USAAF employed with their big bombers. In the relatively low-altitude operations in the East, the lack of a turbocharger was not as great a handicap. The low-speed, low-altitude turning nature of most air combat on the Russian Front suited the P-39's strengths rather than its inherent weaknesses. The second-highest scoring Allied ace, Pokryshkin, flew the P-39 from late 1942 until the end of the war; his unofficial score in the Airacobra stands at nearly 60 Luftwaffe aircraft
That's true. The specific environment of Eastern front were very suited for P-39.

The last major misconception about the P-39 is that it was an effective tank buster. In early August of 1944, while flying over a tank battle in Poland, Alexsandr Pokryshkin told the T-34 unit commander, "Our cannons will not penetrate tank armor." .......... Therefore, the P-39 was not used as a tank destroyer on the Eastern Front.
Well nobody tryed to hit germans tanks like Panther or Tiger from the P-39 37-mm gun. But in most cases the firepower of T9 gun was more then enough to hit the ground aims.
This is was the very importain characteristic of P-39.
As you wrote Its primary role was as a low-altitude escort fighter for ground attack aircraft such as the Il-2. Thus the main task of AiraCobra was not the attacking of germans tanks. This was the matter of IL-2 which had two 23- or 37-mm guns(NSK-37 gun) , 8 Air-to-Ground 83-mm rockets or bombs.

Cheers.

[Nickdfresh]

...First AiraCobra were had a lot of lacks. But spesial soviet-american comission ( including the agent of Bell plant) during the all the war inproved the construction of P-39.
The resault was good. Some soviet pilots prefered P-39 for the other fighters.
Like famouse soviet ace A. Pokrishkin ( 59-voctories at all , 48 on the P-39).

The P-39 was made, along with the P-40 Tomahawk, at a plant not far from where I was born in Buffalo, NY. They were relegated to secondary theaters such as the Alaskan peninsula and to the Pacific theater at the very beginning. Some US pilots also appreciated the planes ruggedness and ability to function well in cold weather. The 37mm cannon was also good for shooting up ground and sea targets...

http://freenet.buffalo.edu/bah/h/aero/bell/image/04p39q.jpg

[George Eller]

-

Panzerknacker, Chevan, Nick,

Thanks for the feedback guys - interesting information.

-

[Panzerknacker]

I open this topic for talk about this polemic Fighters in every teather of operations.


http://i13.tinypic.com/30rwgvp.jpg

[George Eller]

-

This is my page 1 - missing from this thread - apparently not copied from other thread when this thread was created.

Can you adjust this Panzerknacker? Thanks.

[Panzerknacker]

Is done, check the page 1.


http://i16.tinypic.com/2yywmqs.jpg

[George Eller]

-

Thanks Panzerknacker,

Nice pic. Well, I'm heading out for the evening. Happy New Year.

-

[Tony Williams]

-
I wonder how accurate the following quotes are?
I believe they are accurate. It always used to be assumed that the P-39 was used by the Soviets for ground attack, but in recent years more info coming out of Russia has corrected that. Without AP ammo, the 37mm gun would have had a negligible effect on tanks.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Panzerknacker]

The big differences are in the cartrigde case.

Teorically the AP M4 round (37x145R) could penetrate 25 mm vertical plate at 300 meters. That makes an antitank ?

Maybe yes maybe not:

Just some examples of armor:

Pz II ausf f : 35 mm front 15 mm side.

Pz III ausf H/J 50 mm front 30 mm sides.

Pz IV ausf G 80 mm front, 30 mm sides.

Pz V panther 80/100 mm front, 40 mm sides.

Pz VI B Tiger 1, 100 mm front 80 mm sides.


That demonstrate that it have some posibilities against the thinner armor in the lighter vehicles but the the M-80 round was a very simple one, a solid piece of steel with tracer, no explosive charge or balistic cap. the initial speed was about 609 m/s....compare that with the larger NS-37 round, 900 m/s.

M4 ammo, note the M-80 AP.

http://i12.tinypic.com/2crvmt0.jpg


Now the longer bottlenecked russian round, 37x195 mm.

http://i18.tinypic.com/48f811f.jpg


The NS-37 was put in some single engines aircraft like the Yak-9, Lagg-3 and Yak-3 that made those double use aircraft (air-to-air and air-to-ground) but because the soviet aicraft were made mostly of wood they have not the strenght and durability of the cobra, also cannot carry as much armor protection and the radio equipmente was inferior, maybe that make the Airacobra so loved in the USSR.



http://i12.tinypic.com/2rrmclv.jpg]



And Happy new year BTW.

[George Eller]

-

Thanks for the feedback Tony.

I must say that you have a very impressive website.


http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
The USA did fit one 37 mm gun to its aircraft - the M4. However, this fired low-powered 37x145R ammunition and was not very effective against tanks, being intended for air combat. Much more impressive was the M9, which was a belt-fed development of the Army's M1 long-recoil AA gun and fired powerful 37x223SR cartridges. Special AP loadings were developed for this gun but it was never used in action.

-

Thanks for the charts, pics and information Panzerknacker. Very interesting.

-

[Nickdfresh]

Keep in mind, we're also talking about top shots on the thinner turrets and engine compartments. In any case, the P-39/63 would have been very effective against soft skinned vehicles and horse drawn carts...

[Panzerknacker]

The top armor in the Panzer moves around 15 to 40 mm in the heaviest, so chances are increased.

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/3721/p39iv57ad.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

P-39 of the USAAF in the Mediterranean TO. I wonder how was the killing ratio of this plane against the Bf-109 and /or the Vichy French Forces, if any.

http://i14.tinypic.com/30w57c7.jpg


http://i10.tinypic.com/42m5a8h.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

P-39D escorting C-47 over New Guinea, 1943 (P-39 in action / Squadron Signal)

[VonWeyer]

Great pic.

[Tony Williams]

The top armor in the Panzer moves around 15 to 40 mm in the heaviest, so chances are increased.
True, but you have to remember that the striking angle is not favourable. Fighter-bombers didn't usually attack ground targets at more than about a 30 degree angle, which means that the penetration of AP rounds against horizontal armour would be substantially reduced to a small fraction of their optimum figure.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Panzerknacker]

Indeed, other issue is that there is not sureness about the provition of the M80 round to Russia, some sources say did not.

[Panzerknacker]

P-39Q and P-39F.

http://i13.tinypic.com/4iepyl3.jpg

http://i11.tinypic.com/4deh5at.jpg

I am not sure about this last one, it would be interesting to know the real performance of the airacobra against the german and Vichy French fighters.

[Panzerknacker]

P-63D, this poweful plane incorporated several fine characteristics including a bubble canopy, a refined laminar wing and improved high velocity M9 37mm cannon.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6813/p63dcq1.jpg


Just one prototipe was made.

[Tony Williams]

The US 37mm M9 was an interesting gun. It was based on the army's M1 AA gun, firing the same 37x223SR ammo (far bigger and more powerful than the 37x145R of the M4 and M10), only with a slimmer and lighter barrel, and belt fed; the P-63D installation contained 48 rounds of ammo.

It was intended as an aircraft gun but, apart from a few trial installations like the P-63D, was never used as such. A few were fitted to PT boats, just as the M4 was. The pic below (from the Ammunition Photo Gallery on my website) shows ammo from automatic guns used in PT-type boats of various nations in WW2 (the big 57mm being for the British 6 pdr Molins gun).

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2navalPT.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

It would made the P-63 an ideal tankbusting plataform .:)

[Panzerknacker]

P-39s kills in the Mediterranean Teather of Operations:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/15/99722411wp7.jpg


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4012/86540689yr2.jpg



http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9443/56358551lv6.jpg



http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3218/84894695zz9.jpg



Form. "P-39 Airacobra unit of WW2" jerry Scuts/Osprey military publishing.

[Panzerknacker]

Nice video about the general characteristics of P-39.

http://video.google.com/videohosted?docid=-4973497638554184738

[Clave]

I like the Airacobra a lot, it was unconventional...

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-b/P39Q_71TRS_Site.jpg

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-b/P39Q_108GVIAP_Site.jpg

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-b/P39Q_339FS_Site.jpg

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-b/P39Q_CGI5_Site.jpg

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-b/P400_601Sqn_Site.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

P-63Q, the manned target aircraft.

Undoubtly one of the most weirdest task ever impoosed to an aircraft:



Although the P-63 never served with the USAAF in any combat role, it was, however, to serve with the USAAF in an another completely different capacity. This was, in fact, one of the most strange and bizarre roles ever fulfilled by any military aircraft, namely that of manned flying target!
The first flying target Kingcobras were created by taking five P-63A-9s off the production line, redesignating them RP-63A-11, and subjecting them to extensive modifications. First, they were stripped of all armament. Next, all internal armor was removed. The wings, tail, fuselage, and rear canopy were then reskinned with over a ton of heavy sheet metal. A special frangible bullet for firing by gunnery students was designed. The bullet was manufactured of lead and graphite compound, so chosen that the bullet would easily shatter upon impact. Pressure-sensitive plates were fitted to the skin so that hits by the frangible ammunition on the airplane could be recorded. A light in the propeller hub (situated where the cannon used to be) would flash whenever a hit was registered, causing crews to give the aircraft the nickname "Pinball". The name stuck.
It was thought that the dorsal air scoop of the "Pinball" would be its most vulnerable spot, so various styles of air scoop were tested. The first RP-63A-11, 42-69647, had a much smaller "clamshell" scoop in place of the regular intake. The second RP-63A-11, 42-69654, had a flush intake with no scoop at all. The third and fifth (42-69769 and 42-69801) also had "clamshell" intakes,whereas the fourth (42-69771) had a normal intake. Eventually, the "clamshell" type of intake was adopted as standard.
After these five modifications were completed, 95 production versions of the "Pinball" were produced under the designation RP-63A-12. It was similar to the P-63A-10.
In 1948, surviving RP-63A aircraft were redesignated QF-63A, although they were never used as pilotless drones.
Two hundred examples of the P-63C-1 were modified on the production line as armored target aircraft ("Pinballs"). Serials were 43-10933/11132. These were redesignated RP-63C-2 (Model 33C-2), and were more or less similar to their RP-63A predecessors, except that it had the V-1710-117 (E-21) engine and had several minor refinements. Like the RP-63A, the RP-63C-2 had all combat equipment removed and was fitted with a 1488-pound armor skin against which frangible bullets fired by gunnery students shattered. However, the RP-63C-2 differed from the RP-63A in reverting to the normal dorsal air intake of the standard P-63C.
Many RP-63Cs were used as target tugs rather than as targets. In 1948, surviving RP-63Cs were redesignated QF-63C, although they were never used as pilotless drones.
Serials of the P-63As converted as flying targets were as follows: 42-69647 Bell RP-63A-11 Kingcobra 42-69654 Bell RP-63A-11 Kingcobra 42-69769 Bell RP-63A-11 Kingcobra 42-69771 Bell RP-63A-11 Kingcobra 42-69801 Bell RP-63A-11 Kingcobra 42-69880/69974 Bell RP-63A-12 Kingcobra

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p63_9.html

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i222/invader666/800px-Bell_P-63E_Kingcobra_USAF.jpg

[Clave]

Final set:

Bell P-39D - 36th Fighter Squadron 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39D_36FS.png

Bell P-39L - 100 GIAP USSR 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39L_100GIAP.png

Bell P-39Q - 9 GvIAP USSR 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_9GVIAP.png

Bell P-39Q - 19 GvIAP USSR 1945

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_19GVIAP.png

Bell P-39Q - 71st Tactical Reconnaiasance Squadron 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_71TRS.png

Bell P-39Q - 72nd Fighter Squadron 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_72FS.png

Bell P-39Q - 108 GvIAP USSR 1945

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_108GVIAP.png

Bell P-39Q - 129 GvIAP USSR 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_129GVIAP.png

Bell P-39Q - 339th Fighter Squadron 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_339FS.png

Bell P-39Q - 362nd Fighter Squadron 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_362FS.png

Bell P-39Q - GC I/5 French Air Force 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_CGI5.png

Bell P-39Q - GC II/6 French Air Force 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_CGII6.png

Bell P-39Q - GC II/9 French Air Force 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_CGII9.png

Bell P-39Q - GC III/6 French Air Force 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_CGIII6.png

Bell P-39Q - 2nd Combined Special Air Regiment Polish Air Force 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39Q_Poland.png

Bell P-400 - 601 Squadron RAF 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P400_601Sqn.png

Bell P-400 - OK Squadron Portuguese Air Force 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P400_Portugal.png

[Panzerknacker]

Very nice work Clave !!, first time I saw the polish skin.

[ww2admin]

Very nice, Clave! You are good at what you do. Keep us posted.

[Clave]

Thanks :)

I have some links to get organised, then I will post some more.

[Panzerknacker]

A nice document, P-39 tested by the british, extracted from www.ww2aircraft.net

[LinkAFI]

Hello,

Clave your profiles are fantastic. I make skins for a WWII game I play called Aces High and would like to skin the French P-39Q of GC III/6 tail no. 438961. I was wondering if you have a higher resolution picture of the shield on the door and if it's alright with you I would like to use your profile as a reference when I submit the skin for ingame use.

To show you what I'm talking about this is one of the P39s I have recently skined. I do not make the 3D model I just make the exterior paint scheme.



http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/9/20/2106650/35thFSP39D.jpg

[mountainpilot]

My uncle (now 86 and in great shape) flew a P-400 in the 81st Fighter Group in N. Africa, Tunisia and Italy. P-39's operated extensivly in the MTO, but little is writen about them. Check out this link:
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/81stfghonor_roll.html

He has personal stories, including the '39s' that had "engine trouble" and had to land in Portugal. I've got image files of him in in Tunisia in '43', back in the states in '44' and one of the 81st FG taken in Bizerti in '43'. E-mail me at mountainpilot@excite.com and I'll send them to anyone with genuine interest.

Wish one of you could make a propfile of his P-400 "Vonnie"

Later, Al:cool:

[mountainpilot]

My uncle now 86 and in great shape, flew a P-400 in N. Africa, Sicily and Italy in the 81st Fighter Group. E-mail me at mountainpilot@excite.com, I've got a colorized image of him with his P-400 in Tunisia. Also, check out these links:

http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/81stfghonor_roll.html
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/81st_fg.html

[Panzerknacker]

Rare footage of the P-39 in its short RAF service.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ppL1hsNuI


Worth to mention: The Raf was anything but "pleased" with the Cobra.

[Uyraell]

**Reads post #46 several times, and shudders**
P400??? Hell's teeth, he's a lucky man to have survived flying one of those monstrosities.
They were condemned as near-fatally useless by the testpilots that flew them before they were issued for combat. The basic objection was that the lack of a supercharger rendered the aircraft all but powerless at low altitude and that lack of power was a fatal impedance to manoeuverability.

(Technical aside: Had the P39 been manufactured with the Allison V1710 F or Fr series engines, it would have made a fine fighter. Equipped with lowly C12 or C15 series, it was effectively doomed to near fatal mediocrity, and P400 was a C12 or C15 absent the supercharger. Memory suggests the "highest series" of Allison 1710 to see service in a P39 was the E2 or E5, and even those would be comparatively rare, once the P63 begins to be produced instead of the P39.)

It is bound to be remarked that the Russians seem to have found few faults with either the P39 (their models had the supercharger) or the P63. This is so, but since the Russians were flying the aircraft low-enough to have taxied into combat, manoeuverability was correspondingly less of an issue, regardless of altitude (ie: whatever handling error the pilot makes will kill him 98% of the time). How low is "low"? Put it like this, the RAF and USAF worried if the odd small treetop from 50 foot up got caught in the radiator intakes: Russian pilots (those that survived) would often return from missions with pieces of enemy uniform, and/or attendant blood in and around the wing undersides of their aircraft, because they were flying as low as 4 meters/13 foot above local ground, at full throttle. (Note, the propellor was 11ft 6 inches in diameter, if memory serves me rightly.)

Incidentally, when I was a young child of about 6, there was a P39 mounted axle-deep in a concrete pad at a playground. I sat in the beast and looked it over, bemused by the universal joint knuckle of the propshaft which in flight would have been whirling around just in front of the pilot's family jewels. There was a thin sheetmetal arch over the universal joint, but it would only have added to the shrapnel value had the joint ever disintegrated. The aircraft was later "removed for restoration", but I am unaware of it's subsequent fate.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Uyraell]

Rare footage of the P-39 in its short RAF service.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ppL1hsNuI


Worth to mention: The Raf was anything but "pleased" with the Cobra.

The RAF was heartily displeased with both the P39's and P38's it did receive: due entirely to the US State Department which, being heavily under the influence of the severely Anglophobic Joseph Kennedy, did not allow the US to export the turbosuperchargers so vitally necessary for the successful operation of each aircraft type the Allison 1710 powered.

The P38 was flown twice by Brits and refused outright in it's "castrated" guise with unsupercharged right-hand-only twin C15 Allison 1710's. Those already built remained in the US as trainers and experimental planes.

The P39's were a far less happy outcome for the Brits. Having "gotten out from under" what had been the falling P38 anvil, the poor Brits were stuck with the P39 in its' P400 form to the extent of at least 100 machines, if memory serves (it may have been 150 - I'd have to check).
Wisely, the Brits chose to not growl overmuch (it being they were pressing for tanks, rifles, tommyguns, aircraft, transport ships, and anything else they could lay hands on, from US production) and passed the "gutless wonder" P400's to the Free French Airforce (which was getting it's aircraft for free).

What P400's weren't foisted off on the French were passed to Commonwealth Air Forces, each of which in turn scrambled rapidly to avoid that particular P400 falling anvil. Thus it was, the US, (itself now desperate to avoid the P400 anvil), tried to pass the things to China ("NO thanks!", saith China), even while preventing the Brits from passing them to Russia. However, the US ended up issuing its' unwanted and unloved P400's to a few of it's own forces.

Which is where the fairly high accident rate enters the picture.
The damned P400's were allegedly hard to operate in a hot and sandy climate, which would have taxed the properly supercharged P39's. Nor, it would seem, were US personnel too devoted to keeping the things operational.

At this point, enters my earlier post, #48 in this thread.

Hope this hasn't been too much of a ramble, and has been helpful to some members.

Regards, Uyraell.

[mountainpilot]

After one initial disasterous raid due to poor command, their losses were quite low. The 81st FG really were nomads. My uncle talks of trading cigs' for eggs with the arabs. Living and flying from forward bases in Tunesia, Sicily and Near Anzio, Italy. He spoke of them flying wing inside wing, in pairs, flying under powerlines. "Just to keep our edge". Also, when the Thompson Cup Air Races resumed in 1946, it was a P-39 that took the cup. History is writen after the fact. Opinions on the '39' are varied. I've been a pilot since I was 18, I know how subjective they are. My opinions are based on my uncle's, who's experience is first-hand.

[Uyraell]

After one initial disasterous raid due to poor command, their losses were quite low. The 81st FG really were nomads. My uncle talks of trading cigs' for eggs with the arabs. Living and flying from forward bases in Tunesia, Sicily and Near Anzio, Italy. He spoke of them flying wing inside wing, in pairs, flying under powerlines. "Just to keep our edge". Also, when the Thompson Cup Air Races resumed in 1946, it was a P-39 that took the cup. History is writen after the fact. Opinions on the '39' are varied. I've been a pilot since I was 18, I know how subjective they are. My opinions are based on my uncle's, who's experience is first-hand.

Forgive if I'm wrong, but My understanding of the '46 Thompson cup P39 is that it had been fitted with both a 3 stage three speed supercharger and an Fr9 or Fr16 series V1710 engine, which would make of it a very far from typical P39.

Regarding your uncle's experiences, I in no way wished to discount them, nor would I have sought to do so.
My interest was in the P400, which, like a few aircraft of that era, evoke a sense of horror in me, for a raft of reasons.
In similar vein for example, the castrated Lightnings referred to, or the Exe-engined Spitfire project (mercifully stillborn) or the early Mig3, or Ms405. Each of those aircraft make me shudder, so to speak, while in some cases I'd have gladly flown others from the same stable.
Yes, opinion and hindsight are both subjective.
However, history lives through those of us who remain.

Regards, Uyraell.

[freyir_33]

Truly a remarkably bird, very modernistic innovative design for it's time.

[Nickdfresh]

Forgive if I'm wrong, but My understanding of the '46 Thompson cup P39 is that it had been fitted with both a 3 stage three speed supercharger and an Fr9 or Fr16 series V1710 engine, which would make of it a very far from typical P39.

Regarding your uncle's experiences, I in no way wished to discount them, nor would I have sought to do so.
My interest was in the P400, which, like a few aircraft of that era, evoke a sense of horror in me, for a raft of reasons.
In similar vein for example, the castrated Lightnings referred to, or the Exe-engined Spitfire project (mercifully stillborn) or the early Mig3, or Ms405. Each of those aircraft make me shudder, so to speak, while in some cases I'd have gladly flown others from the same stable.
Yes, opinion and hindsight are both subjective.
However, history lives through those of us who remain.

Regards, Uyraell.

You are correct that the P-39s used for racing, successfully into the 1970s actually, were highly "modded" with superchargers. Something the original P-400/39s never had.

The P-39 series was hated by the Western Allies because of its poor high level performance and low ceiling, however, it could be very effective at low level as the Soviets and luckier Americans found. But the Japanese and Germans generally chose not to fight down there in their theaters of operations and the Aerocobra was useless in high level bomber escort. The P-39 was found to be invaluable as a ground attack aircraft in campaigns like Guadalcanal however...

[mountainpilot]

Check out this link. A man how flew with my uncle kept a diary. Which was verboten, however now it's a wonderful source:
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/81stfghonor_roll.html

I should be stated the most of the WWII Fighter missions in the various theaters of operation were tactical, air to ground, sans escort missions. So odds were if you flew fighters in WWII, you were staffing, bombing, and other fighter sweep ops'. A role the P-39/400 was entirely suited for. I understand this from speaking to WWII veteran Fighter pilots.

[Uyraell]

Check out this link. A man how flew with my uncle kept a diary. Which was verboten, however now it's a wonderful source:
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/81stfghonor_roll.html

I should be stated the most of the WWII Fighter missions in the various theaters of operation were tactical, air to ground, sans escort missions. So odds were if you flew fighters in WWII, you were staffing, bombing, and other fighter sweep ops'. A role the P-39/400 was entirely suited for. I understand this from speaking to WWII veteran Fighter pilots.

Suited for: yes. Designed for, No.

The P39 had been designed as a medium to (then) high altitude fighter, capable of dogfighting at between 12000 and 26000 feet.
It was not a success for a number of reasons, not least of which the supercharger issues and the geometry and airflow issues the cylinder intake ports of the Allison engines suffered from; which engines, even supercharged, failed to make the P39 perform adequately at even 15000 feet, effectively half the intended ceiling.
The P400, which is a P39 without the supercharger, was basically incapable above 12000 feet.

This resulted in the P39 being employed in the ground-attack role, (then still referred-to as "strafing"), and the P400 being employed in a similar manner. (Having produced the beast, it had to be employed somehow.)
The aircraft, though, never quite outgrew the criticism that had been levelled at it, regarding it's intended role.
Subsequently, it was (as the P39 at least) flown by the Russians very effectively at low altitudes where it was fortuitously well suited.

The later P63 development, with the laminar flow wing, was similarly successfully employed, and was equipped with re-designed and re-developed Allison V1710 engines which had solved most of the intake geometry/airflow issues.

Again, I had (and have) NO wish to downplay any pilot's experiences with the P39/P400.

However, the technical issues the series had are of (admittedly somewhat esoteric) interest.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Deaf Smith]

My understanding is the P-39 had no supercharger. It was taken out in the development period by the ordnance board.

And the P-400 had British O2 system that was not compatible to our Oxygen systems (and a 20mm instead of a 37mm and other minor differences.)

Deaf

[Nickdfresh]

The P-63 Kingcobra did receive the fantastic British Merlin engine, manufactured under license by Packard. This dramatically improved it's ceiling, but there was no point of bringing it into US service because so many other fighters were available such as the P-47 and P-51...

But both variants were still very effective combat aircraft, with limitations on ceiling notwithstanding, that shot down numerous German types in mostly Soviet hands. They also killed a lot of ground forces...

[mountainpilot]

That's correct. My uncle Bud tells me, (he's 88 now and still plays Golf). That the O2 was a problem and also the harness was the British type. I've got two pix of him, one in Tuninsia in '43' beside his P-400 'Vonnie', a pix of the entire 81st FG taken in Bizerti, Tunisis, and one when was instructing at a Fighter training base in Hebron Nebraska in '44'. (our family is from Nebraska). The files are too large for attachments here. E-mail me at mountainpilot@excite.com and I'll send them. Perhaps you could get them posted here?

[Uyraell]

My understanding is the P-39 had no supercharger. It was taken out in the development period by the ordnance board.

And the P-400 had British O2 system that was not compatible to our Oxygen systems (and a 20mm instead of a 37mm and other minor differences.)

Deaf
You are correct in that the Ordinance Board suggested to supercharger be removed form the early Allison V1710 C12 and C15 Series engines.
In the later F, Fr, and Fxx r series engines the matter changes again.
As Nick says, the Merlin ended up being fitted also, though the P63 was not employed to any great operational degree beyond Soviet service.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Deaf Smith]

Can you guys imagine what it was like on Guadalcanal in the 67 FS, with a P-39 that could, if it tried hard, make 20,000 ft. And in the P-400 you would pass out at 15K if you could even reach it?

And the Japanese A6Ms could very easly go way above that.

You know what the P-400 is? They said it was a P-40 with a Zero on it's tail.

It took very gutsy men to fly a plane they knew was no good against the enemy. Amazing thing is, I think one made Ace in New Guinea.

Here is some good info on it.

http://yarchive.net/mil/p39.html

Deaf